Always superb musicianship and wonderful singing.....but....couldn't they just look a little fiercer. The players that have been incarcerated in this idyllic setting must have had orders to adopt permanent dreamy, insipid smiles. Sometimes I feel a bit like this when watching it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zy6KWBEoDRU
Not a huge fan meself of all the lush arrangements, although I guess it makes the music more palatable for some folk. Ya get the odd cracking song though, and it's always a pleasure to listen to Jerry douglas on dobro. Great musicianship though...Just lacks that wee bit of soul and rawness...
"The players that have been incarcerated in this idyllic setting must have had orders to adopt permanent dreamy, insipid smiles"
You have to remember, they are professonal performers. Everything happening is special and magical, a unique musical moment, a treasure of artistic excellence, something for the archives, and, above all else, flowing like the very milk of human kindness from their love and respect for each other.
This is certainly not some tawdry, coldly calculated, carefully choreographed, elegantly edited, highly marketable product to be vaunted blood-thirstily upon the masses with a label, tune list of your faves, and a paragraph or two on the back of anecdotal information to make you feel you "know" them all as friends.
A total performance, with every detail in place and well thought out and rehearsed, can be a lovely thing.
I simply have a preference for spontaneity and honesty. I do not think I will ever be able to cop a false smile and perform that comradely nod/wink/whatever because the cameras are rolling. In any case, the truth is quite enough for me - great musicians are creating a magnificent noise, and I love what the series has to offer, particularly anything at all from Mr. Bain.
It is a great cake, why slather it with mediocre icing?
I am reliably informed that each each set is completed in three runs through only: once for rehearsal and sound checking, second is the actual take, and the third for further camera angles. I think that is pretty impressive.
I'm fairly confident that most of the smiles are genuine, seeing how fired-up great players get at making new arrangements with fellow musicians. Away with the cynicism that destroys all beauty.
That fits with what various musicians have said in radio interviews. If they can't make the the use of the third run through undetectable then it spoils the illusion, or maybe diguises the spontaneity that is there in a newly worked-out arrangement. Maybe it is because the close ups only show one side of an exchange of expressions whearas if they were on stage we would see both. It distracts me from the music.
I would not contribute to ruining it for anyone, especially a series which has brought to my own screen so many musicicans I might not have "seen" otherwise.
At least we get a chance to see and hear Mary Black at her best. She has a wonderful voice, but her popular recordings are not really my sort of thing - I'd rather hear this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VqEtpOdhTE
I look forward to it being accessible down in the South ( ie England ). I'd always had the idea that they did the music, basically, in one take after rehearsal, but as i also work as a film extra I know how many times one can be asked to do something again, to get that minute variation on action and reaction, which will then be edited in to the final take.
Spent yesterday playing the bodhran for an elderly Lady Gaga wannabee for a commercial - the daft things you do for money.
I think that was the song that Aly Bain talked about when he was interviewed by Barbara Dixon earlier this year. IIRC the comment was along the lines of "She didn't take her eyes off him for a second - you could never be sure what he was going to do"
I quoted the interview referring to the clip that NCA linked because it was I thought of when reading Piece's posts above complaining about lack of sponteniety etc. Seeing the way way these performers apear in different line-ups and guest on each others sets at festivals etc I have to believe that their musicianship is such that they can do it with minimal rehearsal. Awsome. I think it was the same interview where Jerry Douglas's ability to do that in recording sessions was commented on.
I'll agree with NCFA and MacCruiskeen. Very easy to insult someone when he's dead. I doubt very much Jack Campin would have called John Martyn " a pompous drunk with a fake American accent" to his face. Go on Jack, tell me I'm wrong.
...and to answer Jack's rather stupid question, nobody "needs that stuff", but apparently quite a lot of people enjoy it. Not me, in fact, but I don't need to feel superior about it.
I never met the guy but "maundering empty-headed pretentious mediocrity" was more the description I had in mind after wasting an hour of my life listening to him live.
Quite what a Scottish acoustic rocker who spent his life trying not very successfully to turn himself into a Californian middle-aged-pop clone has do with Irish tradition beats me. I guess a lot of people here are of the appropriate generation that he pushes nostalgia buttons.
I met him - I liked him. He never claimed to have anything to do with Irish tradition. Generation and nostalgia have nothing to do with it. A lot of people just liked his music, and I'm not going to be the arrogant prick who tells them they were wrong.
Pompous? Not the impression I got. Drunk? Yep, quite often. Sometimes too drunk to get through a gig. However, the first time I saw him, around 1973, he rolled a joint on stage, and there wasn't a hint of him being blootered. He had a very English accent - though that was a gig at Lancaster Uni. The English accent would be prominent at that gig. It was an accent much like it is on here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LDPHCfOZ6wo&feature=related
Not too surprising as he was born in Surrey. However, the fact that he went to school in the south side of Glasgow did help him with the patter. Hear the contrasts in these two clips:
The times when he turned up at the club in Kilmarnock, he always came across as being quite genuine. I never heard an American accent. Or did you mean when he was singing, Jack? Well, it was kind of reaching over the Atlantic at times, but he was not unique in that respect.
Its not unusual for someone to pick up an accent from where they stay but drop back into one closer that of where they were from when speaking to people from near there. Doesn't mean they are not genuine or that it is deliberate.
"Its not unusual for someone to pick up an accent from where they stay but drop back into one closer that of where they were from when speaking to people from near there. Doesn't mean they are not genuine or that it is deliberate. "
Absolutely. However, those two clips kind of put that "American accent" oot the windae somewhat.
"What makes you think any of those links are actually to Mary Black singing?"
Well, I'm not in the habit of opening up all those YouTube links. I took your word for the descriptions. Looks like I was mistaken. I don't see that as numptiferous - just trusting. Again, I was mistaken to trust you.
I won't be describing the beastie (that's an animal, by the way) that fits your shoes on this forum.
FWIW, Mr. Campin was looking for information regarding Mary Black singing *on Transatlantic Sessions* which might meet his approval. At this point I doubt he has found a satisfactory solution to his self imposed dilemma.
"FWIW, Mr. Campin was looking for information regarding Mary Black singing *on Transatlantic Sessions* which might meet his approval. At this point I doubt he has found a satisfactory solution to his self imposed dilemma"
I figured out what your post was about. However, my post was suggesting that rather than try and find a solution to the dilemma, it might be better to give him some more material for his constructive criticism - more of his "Scottish acoustic rocker who spent his life trying not very successfully to turn himself into a Californian middle-aged-pop clone".
The little ironic point being Martyn's rendition of Spencer the Rover (a little ditty he apparently gleaned from the Copper Family) on that clip, complete with accompaniment from messrs Bain, Thompson, Cunningham and Ungar, is about as far removed from "Californian middle-aged-pop" music as your posts are from being witty.
"However, those two clips kind of put that "American accent" oot the windae somewhat. " The spoken words at the end the earlier clip do that. I don't like it when singers seem to be "putting on an accent". But some compromises over vowels (especially) when rendering prose from written by someone with a different accent, or as in that case, when singing with someone with a different accent, seems OK. Its a bit like poetry not working in translation.
" I don't like it when singers seem to be "putting on an accent".
Sometimes, though, it goes with the territory. Martyn's particular brand of music seems to fit into a genre where the mid-Atlantic accent prevails. The same thing happens in Irish singing. Where do you draw the line? Singers from continental Europe singing Dubliners songs with an attempt at the accent, or Shane MacGowan, whose family are Irish and he spent his early childhood there, but his years in London are reflected in his accent - except when he's singing?
It's easy to get annoyed by any of it, but it's also worth accepting it sometimes - and Martyn's singing accent never really seemed out of place with his style of music.
But do Singers 'put on ' accents? IMO thats probably how they learnt it;, by ear. So a good singer, listening carefully will pick up every nuance of the piece, just as a good tune smith would do the same.
"But do Singers 'put on ' accents? IMO thats probably how they learnt it;, by ear. So a good singer, listening carefully will pick up every nuance of the piece, just as a good tune smith would do the same. "
I'm not sure if Shane MacGowan would have learned "The Band Played Waltzing Matilda" as a song with the accent he adopts (written by a guy from Peebles living in Australia). It fluctuates from something nondescript to a definite Irish edge.
And Martyn's "Spencer the Rover" is not in the style of the Copper Family. They have become stamped by the singer - I don't think that is a sign of a bad singer. It's too easy to try and impersonate Christy Moore when singing some of his repertoire (including "Bunch of Thyme" which he apparently first heard in Cumbria - yet he stamped his own mark on it). Likewise, I don't think this is the sign of a good singer either.
Well yes fair enough , accents are a funny thing but I maintain my position , If a singer or player sits for hours poring over a recording, rewinding, catching the words, phrasing, intonation ornamentation then of course, to some extent [ if he is successful,] he will sound something like the thing hes copying.
Now granted as the years/decades pass It will become his own , but a careful listener, knowing where the tune was learn from ,will still find traces of it.
I know plenty of people who learnt like this and sing the songs in the accent they first heard it sung.
Your examples mean nothing unless you have first hand knowledge of how they learnt their songs. any song can be picked up from a book and sung in any manner whatsoever , just like a tune.
My point was about EAR learning , listening to what they're saying , not what you think they might be saying, thats careful listening....
I suppose I meant - *I* don't like it when it sounds wrong to *me*. It had never occured to me that there was anything odd about Martyn's accent when singing. Its must be hard for those continental Europeans singing Dubliners songs if they want the pronunciation to sound right and the rhymes to work but still sound like themselves. Like a class of English school kids singing partially anglicized Scottish songs... I suppose one answer is not to do it.
"Your examples mean nothing unless you have first hand knowledge of how they learnt their songs."
It's enough to know, for example, that Christy Moore got "Bunch of Thyme" from a folk club in Bowness (he said so himself). He gets his songs from all over but I've not heard him sing any of them in an accent other than his own distinctive one. Paul Brady is another example. I've not heard him sing traditional songs in any accent other than his own distinctive (Tyrone?) one. I doubt if he got all his songs from that area.
I understand what you are saying, but it doesn't follow that emulating the national/regional accent of your source is a sign of a "good singer". Perhaps a sign of a good singer is when everyone tries to copy your own version of a song - complete with accent. It shows you have a distinct version which people see fit to copy.
Well weejie I accede that any definition of 'good' is subjective and though we might not agree its I enjoy the chance to chat and consider the different views.
Your points re Christy and co are very true but its hard to say how they got their songs , was it one night, heard the song, went and found it in a book?
After all Ive spent hundreds of hours getting the words of songs , especially Dick Gaughan and Robin Williams off old cassettes and its not easy , much much easier to find it written!
I mean a lot of their songs are Irish songs, sung by the Irish so an Irishman picking up the song by ear would naturally sing it in his own way. But if the source is American, by ear, then it seems reasonable to me that they sing it as they heard it and if it sounds right t them to sing it as they heard it well fair play to them. I have to admit to a dislike of most of that genre and it sounds wierd to me an Irishman singing in an American Accent, but there you go, I dont think they are 'putting on' and accent, its how they hear it in their minds.
Look at the tunes, non natives are often trying to play them in a 'Authentic Irish' fashion , rolls etc etc They are imitating an Irish Manner of playing, the accent.... Surely then thats exactly the same as singing an American song with an American accent? Its trying to be faithful to source.
When an American plays an Irish tune in an American fashion dont they call it blue grass?
"When an American plays an Irish tune in an American fashion dont they call it blue grass?"
Well, they might - but bluegrass is specific. Many Irish tunes are adapted as old time tunes by Americans. I think the differences between instrumental accents and national accents are something else. You wouldn't necessarily lose the 'flavour' if you sang it without putting on the regional accent. However, if you were to slavishly copy a song, complete with accent, you could be said to be lacking originality. This could even be said of tunes. Would you necessarily copy every roll and cut, ending up with a carbon copy of the original?
To take it to ridiculous extremes, if you got a song from someone of the opposite gender, would you sing in the same pitch?
"Your points re Christy and co are very true but its hard to say how they got their songs ,"
He has said that he got certain songs from recordings.
I think the point is that it is not wrong or poor musicianship to put your own interpretation on any tune or song, but to slavishly copy something, though it may be an indication of a good ear, runs the risk of being thought of as lacking originality.
" I dont think they are 'putting on' and accent, its how they hear it in their minds."
If that's the case, then, as you say, fair play.
I do remember long ago hearing someone sing "Big Yellow Taxi" at Carrbridge festival. Not only was this girl obviously trying hard to sound like Joni Mitchell, she even did the 'high voice/low voice bit at the end - and the laugh! It didn't strike me as being too clever (as she didn't really sound like the original artist). It came across more as an impersonation attempt than anything else. I think that's where you would have to tread carefully.
Fair enough Weejie, theres always a different take on things! I agree re slavish copying, but where is the line drawn? I actually think that there is way to much slavish copying in the genre at this time, so few fiddlers stand out above the crowd say.
But as a learner thats how I learnt the music, copying and over the decades I have developed on the principles originally learnt.
For example about 30 yrs ago I learnt Janis Joplins; Mercedes Benz., Now if I sing it how do I pronounce Mercedes Benz. ? I have no natural way of pronouncing the words because I have never, to my recollection, ever said those words out side of the song, its either 'merc' or its not. Its not part of my vocabulary.
Her diction, pronunciation everything is a part of the piece as I have it in my head , I honestly have no idea how I would sing the words, with the melody as I have it in my head , without her pronunciation[ to an extent] . I have no other references, Ive never heard it sung by another , no books , just an Album as a teenager.
Accents are funny things, they can be changed picked up, modified. but the unconscious part of it is that we speak as we heard it spoken growing up, we can consciously learn to modify/change an accent but most of us dont.
No ones going to slag us because we speak in an accent which we learnt by ear from careful listening from our parents if its our ' natural ' accent. .
A friend of mine , a Lynch, speaks with an 'English ' accent growing up in the UK, but when he 'imitates' his dad , he has a broad Cork Accent. Which is the natural accent and which is the ' learnt ' accent?
Back to big yellow taxi, obviously I dont know if she was consciously imitating an accent or singing it as she hears it from in-depth listening and neither do you.
After all, back to the tunes, is an American, 'putting on 'an Irish fiddle style [accent], intentionally attempting to sound Irish' or are they simply playing it as they hear it? Are they lacking originality? or will they imbue the piece with their own accent as the decades progress? Are they a lesser player/singer because they sound Irish/American? when they are not?
My mum lived for many years in the states, when her friend rings her she slips straight into a American 'Twang'. Similarly when she speaks French , she has a French accent. not consciously but thats how she learnt it.
Learning any language, the accent, is a part of it, because we learn by ear. If you speak French with a strong English accent it sounds terrible and wont be understood anyhow, same with Spanish, the accent, stress is Part of the language.
Thats why IMO a good listener will pick up all these subtle variations , stresses etc . To then consciously try to 'put on' their own natural [learnt] accent is IMO the conscious modification of the learnt [natural] accent . Its like learning French with French pronunciation then consciously trying to speak French in your ' natural ' accent so as to be 'original'!
"Back to big yellow taxi, obviously I dont know if she was consciously imitating an accent or singing it as she hears it from in-depth listening and neither do you. "
It wasn't the actual accent that struck me, it was that laugh at the end. It was an attempt at a carbon copy of the record (what else could it be with that laugh?). That would be fine if it was supposed to be an impersonation (I'll always request that Johnny Silvo does his Satchmo impersonation when I'm at one of his gigs) but this was just announced as "a song written by Joni Mitchell".
"My mum lived for many years in the states, when her friend rings her she slips straight into a American 'Twang'. Similarly when she speaks French , she has a French accent. not consciously but thats how she learnt it."
I'm one of those people who picks up accents too. I'm inclined to slip into certain accents when in the company of folk from the same area. The example of John Martyn with his London and Glasgow accents was also given. That (rather annoying IMO) actor geezer John Barrowman speaks with his Illinois American accent normally, but in the company of his family, he lapses into Glaswegian (this was displayed in a genealogy programme). I find Kevin Burke's accent fascinating. A mish-mash of accents - it seems that his years in Oregon have added an extra twang to his London/Irish mix.
Obviously, there are various reasons as to why someone may sing in an accent other than their own (and singing in another language is one - it follows that it would be more authentic to sing with an accent other than your own in such circumstances). Nevertheless, there are occasions where you might decide where the line should be drawn - three examples (not for those of a nervous disposition):
I think Ewan MacColl got it right on this one - singers should restrict themselves to songs from their own tradition. That way there is never any need to affect an accent.
Enjoy listening to songs from other traditions, but don't try to perform them. Someone who has never been West of Glasgow singing about "hoboin' on the railroad", or a middle-class Englishman singing about the highland clearances (even if he does try to put on the accent) is at best pointless, and at worst offensive to the people whose tradition he is defiling.
What? Are you saying the Irish should only sing Irish songs, the Americans should only sing American songs, the Scottish should only sing Scottish songs, the English should only sing English songs, the Aussies should only sing Aussie songs, and that's just sticking with English-speakers in predominantly English-speaking countries! God forbid any choir which is not made up of German-speakers attempt the sections of the Carmina Burana that are in German. And choral music in Latin should be restricted to a handful of people in Rome and a few academics with PhDs in Latin.
That's one of the most idiotic ideas I've ever read on the Mustard Board, and you get some doozies here.
Why is a middle-class Englishman singing about the Clearances "pointless" or "offensive?" Because his ancestors may have perpetuated them (and, boy, are there some issues with that blanket claim)? Because he himself didn't experience them (and unless you know 200-year old Highlanders, no one you will meet from there will have experienced them, either)? Should we only be allowed to sing songs within our own personal realm of "cultural experience?" If that's the case, maybe your Englishman *can* sing about the Clearances because his great-great grandfather was from Assynt.
We can play Reductio Ad Absurdum endlessly. I have book by an American historian based at UPenn comparing constructions of infanticide in Scots ballads to ones in Scots law from around the same time (17th -18th century). I once got into an argument with someone over whether or not an American academic at UPenn should or should not written such a book, whether said book would have been better if written by a Scottish person. So think about that.
In the meantime, back to work writing about.... wait for it....
"I think Ewan MacColl got it right on this one - singers should restrict themselves to songs from their own tradition."
Well, it's a safe option. However, it's rather ironic that McColl's own composition (and he was born in Salford - of Scots parentage) "Dirty Old Town" (about Salford) is more often than not these days heard sung in a "Dublin" accent.
If you take the song "The Lakes of Ponchartrain", which obviously has American connections, the most well known versions are probably those sung by Christy Moore and Paul Brady. Although there are early examples of the song being in Ireland, there is no definite answer to the origins of the song. There is a Canadian version (The Banks of the Similkameen) and variants from the US. Without going into the origins of the actual song, apparently, Paul Brady got the song from Christy Moore, who got the song from Mike Waterson. So you have this version crossing the Irish Sea. I don't think we'd be better off having been spared Paul Brady's version (OK, some people might not even like the song) - so it's fortunate that he didn't heed the advice from McColl about sticking to your own tradition.
I'm sure there are other examples of songs being adopted into different traditions which have become well known in that tradition. Yep, there's nothing wrong with a tradition like Sean-nós or those of the Western Isles of Scotland (and there may be examples of songs from other areas being adopted into those traditions), but there's also room for songs from other traditions to be brought in. Surely it can only add to the richness (though the puritanical folk out there might not see it that way). The accent doesn't necessarily have to go with the song.
As for the Glaswegian "hobo" singers, there is quite a tradition of American songs being sung in Glasgow. Some examples migh be wanting a little, but in my experience, I've not come across anyone from across the Atlantic being offended by it.
Here's an Indian born Glaswegian doing a 'hobo style' song (with the late Bert Jansch appearing) - first number:
One 'put down' of the Ewan MacColl dictum that I have heard several times is along the lines of "Own tradition - he wasn't even using his own name !"
Those folks on Weejie's first clip (singing Henry Martin) seemed to be having fun and entertaining people - but to my ear anyone not wanting not to sound like they learned it off an early Joan Baez record would have to handle "and they did cast lots" differently.
Should Joan Baez have been 'allowed' to sing all those English and Scottish ballads collected in the USA ?
Yes, that's a good point as well. I hear loads of Glaswegians singing American songs around here. Am I offended? Nope. Do I care? So long as they're not totally crap singers, nope.
Emily, I think you've miss my point a little - what I was desribing as 'pointless' and 'offensive' has little to do with content, and everything to do with accent.
Try a little experiment - Go into a Glasgow pub and sing a Burns song. You have two choices - you could sing it in your own accent, which will sound absurd and you'll probably get laughed off stage. Or you could put on a Scots accent to sing. In which case people will assume you are taking the pish. So if you can't sing a Scots song in Scotland without it being either laughable or offensive, why would that change if you do it somewhere else?
MacColl's rule might have been a bit too black and white - there are many songs that do cross cultural borders quite happily. But those songs all have two factors in common: 1. they don't make specific reference to the culture they come from, and 2. they don't need to be sung with a specific accent to make the meter and rhyming work. As far as I am concerned, if a singer has to affect an accent to make a song work, it's a no-no. If British and Irish people are going to put on American accents and sing American songs, why not go the whole hog and dress up as cowboys too?
Translate that back to your American professor, and I have no problem at all with her writing about highland history as a third party observer. But if she were to write the book in Doric, I would have a lot of trouble taking it seriously. And that is the equivalent of putting on an accent to sing a song from outside your own culture.
I found it whilst researching before telling you about a Glaswegian called Dougie who I used to share an office with. If we had pronounced his name they way he did he would have thought we were taking the p*ss about his accent. If we pronounced it the English way he would have been p*ssed off (and probably though it was an oblique way of taking the p*ss). So we said it his way in an English accent. Down the pub one night he taught us the Three Crows (version as linked without the macaronic bits) and we had fun trying to make it sound 'right'. After that we could say "wasna there at a'" in as good or bad immitation of his accent as we could manage and he didn't mind.
Chris Thile, an American bluegrass mandolinist, did a very fine (IMHO) version of "Flow Gently Sweet Afton" when he was with the bluegrass band, Nickel Creek. It didn't sound in the least bit absurd. I'm not going to tell him that he should not have sung that, as he is from California. Are you?
British and Irish people sing American songs with American accents (to various degrees) all the time. I remember a roomful of Scots and English singing Paul Simon's "The Boxer" at Moniaive earlier this year. Very American song, that one. I didn't see anything wrong with it (except it turned a perfectly good tune session into the Paul Simon tribute sing-song).
Ok but people are still assuming that the singers 'put on' an accent, unless you have first hand experience as a singer doing so, or have discussed it with someone who has done so, why are you making this assumption? IMO your simply projecting your ideas onto someone else without the faintest clue if that is infact the case. It might be, but it might not....
@Skreetch, if you want to play trad, in an 'authentic Irish ' [ whatever that is ]manner then you need to incorporate the numerous stylistic flourishes, the accent. You could play the same tune in a Care Breton, or Shetland or Donegal or Clare fashion, very different , but the same tune. This is the accent, so effectively what your saying is that if your not Irish you shouldn't play the tunes in an 'Irish accent 'but in your own regional accent.... or not play the tunes at all if your not Irish/Scots etc are you prepared to accept this corollary? Im curious.
@weejie; re her laugh, well it could simply be she is making a subtle reference to where she learnt it knowing that some in the audience would recognise that and creating a 'us together ' vibe amongst the cognoscente, just a maybe
I noticed that the clip Mark posted was of a gig in Ayrshire with Phil Cunningham on the bouzouki. Obviously a bunch of Ayrshire folk and Phil didn't mind an American singing Burns!
It's coming down to arguments about taste. I've always loved Thile's version of "Sweet Afton" since my friend gave me a Nickel Creek album while I was in college (there -- switching to American dialect). I suppose I see your argument as too broad and too crude to account for reality and other people's taste.
piobagusfidil, There is no assumption. If someone sings in a different accent to how they talk they are putting on an accent. Simples.
As to your comparison with tunes, personally, if I hear a tune from a Clare or Shetland fiddler I might well learn that tune, but not by trying to exactly imitate the original player, it would be a case of taking the basic tune and playing it in my own style, my own accent. (Which is probably why I struggle when I visit sessions in other places )
But the situation with songs is different because language is involved, and the language and accent have to match. If you take a song like The Boxer which SS mentioned earlier, the lyrics are all in standard English, so It works perfectly well on either side of the Atlantic. But if you take a song that mentions 'mom' or 'gals' or anything else that is uniquely American, it sounds stupid if you try to sing it in anything other than an American accent.
It's a problem I face the whole time: despite having lived in Scotland for 30+ years I still have a South of England accent. There are a number of Scottish songs that mean a hell of a lot to me, and I would love to be able to sing them. But I can't because of my accent. Nothing to do with my culture or anything else, it's simply down to the way I speak. If I sing a song that uses Scottish words with an English accent it sounds wrong. If I put on a Scottish accent to sing it makes a mockery of the whole thing. And to my ears exactly the same thing happens when someone puts on an American accent to sing an American song.
"I noticed that the clip Mark posted was of a gig in Ayrshire with Phil Cunningham on the bouzouki. Obviously a bunch of Ayrshire folk and Phil didn't mind an American singing Burns! "
McCusker is from the Baillieston area too, although he has Irish roots. Not so much as a grimace.
"I think Ewan MacColl got it right on this one - singers should restrict themselves to songs from their own tradition. That way there is never any need to affect an accent."
He said that, did he? Bet he didn't say it to Peggy.
good link Prof, What to do with a song like that. it doesnt even make much sense in this day and age. Dont sing it? Its only half in English . How would you treat it if you were to sing it? Anyone?
What about when people with a mix of accents join in on a song chorus ? As well as trying to be together in time and in tune don't they usually try to blend the pronunciation a bit so as not to stand out too much ? I wonder if that is a similar process to how our accents change during economic migration.
Somewhere on the web is an article by Peggy Seeger that explaines the MacColl quote in context. (I can't remember but I think may have been venue-specific or something)
Americans reading Shakespeare often sounds OK - maybe it is them who are right.
Ah , now this is an interesting setting, hes changed the rhythm, and lyrics but retains a setting of the melody ..... and more Its probably the most 'authentic' version so far.
I tell you as an aside this type of 6/4 is well hard to strum. Its could be more accurately described as being in 2 rhythms, 4/4 and 2/4. Its definitely not 3/4.
I really cant sit through some of these settings, what was that about cringe factor earlier?
At least the pipers and the sextet didnt have to worry about pronouncing the words!
Well, there you have it. A French group, including a player of a Swedish instrument, singing a Scottish song about a German king on the English throne.
I almost can't believe I am saying this but I agree with Emily and Weejie. Urghh - I feel dirty!
In all seriousness I sympathise with what you are saying Skreech. I was born in Scotland and I live in Scotland. As far as I am concerned I am very much Scottish. Nonetheless I grew up in England and I have a pretty English accent. I too have decided in the past not to attempt a song because it was in broad Scots and I didn't feel I could confidently pull it off. Nevertheless to say that someone shouldn't sing a song because it was not written to suit their own accent is more than a step too far. After all Aaron Jones is the main singer with the Old Blind Dogs these days and he is originally from Poole and you can't get much more South-of-England than that!
Or to put it more simply (but without wanting to open a can of worms) but when you sing a song you are putting on a performance. There is no real reason why that can't involve putting on an accent if you so wish.
It is a coincidence, but I am taking some sean nos singing lessons these days, and my teacher has us all imitating her not just note for note, but inflection, breathing, accent and all. She says now is the time to learn how to do it exactly the way she does it, and we can make it our own later. I probably will go back to something closer to my own accent later, as I sound pretty hoaky. But it is a good exercise to try to sound as much like her as possible up front, as I pick up other things as well, things that are a part of the sean nos style of singing, things I want to keep when I sing these songs myself.
I agree with Alistair (shock horror! ) that a song is very much a performance, a kind of dialogue between singer, song, and audience. When I listen to one, I really don't give a damn whether or not the singer is singing the "right" song in the "right" accent. If they present the song convincingly, in whatever manner suits them, and sing well, I'm happy to listen to it. I judge a singer on what I hear at that moment, not any preconceived notions about what individuals from certain countries with certain accents should or should not be singing.
Guilty pleasure admission time: I also like Steeleye Span, the Oyster Band, and that sort of English folky rocky group.
We also just watched Transatlantic Sessions 5 tonight and I enjoyed it. Especially McGoldrick's bluegrass-ish uilleann piping. See, I'm not the rabid pure drop fiend people make me out to be. How did we get into this argument again? The Americans on this episode were singing American songs anyway!
Transatlantic Sessions 5
Transatlantic Sessions 5
I see this is due out very soon - 6 part series starting Fri Sep 30
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b015frjm
but it seems to be on BBC2 (Scotland) only - don't know if it's available on i-player
# Posted on September 26th 2011 by domhnall.
Re: Transatlantic Sessions 5
I hope it is, I'm looking forward to it!
# Posted on September 26th 2011 by SmashTheWindows
Re: Transatlantic Sessions 5
Always superb musicianship and wonderful singing.....but....couldn't they just look a little fiercer. The players that have been incarcerated in this idyllic setting must have had orders to adopt permanent dreamy, insipid smiles. Sometimes I feel a bit like this when watching it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zy6KWBEoDRU
# Posted on September 27th 2011 by RichardB
Re: Transatlantic Sessions 5
I quite like the 'relaxed' appearance. It's the smiles between players with that awkard 'for the camera' look that I notice.
# Posted on September 27th 2011 by David50
Re: Transatlantic Sessions 5
Like the bassist at 0:37 here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-Qy8xvR81g
Still, any chance to see Aly Bain at work :D
# Posted on September 27th 2011 by SmashTheWindows
Re: Transatlantic Sessions 5
And you don't get much more relaxed than this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_mbRkRqFH0
I like it.
# Posted on September 27th 2011 by SmashTheWindows
Re: Transatlantic Sessions 5
Not a huge fan meself of all the lush arrangements, although I guess it makes the music more palatable for some folk. Ya get the odd cracking song though, and it's always a pleasure to listen to Jerry douglas on dobro. Great musicianship though...Just lacks that wee bit of soul and rawness...
# Posted on September 27th 2011 by laguacamaya
Re: Transatlantic Sessions 5
"The players that have been incarcerated in this idyllic setting must have had orders to adopt permanent dreamy, insipid smiles"
You have to remember, they are professonal performers. Everything happening is special and magical, a unique musical moment, a treasure of artistic excellence, something for the archives, and, above all else, flowing like the very milk of human kindness from their love and respect for each other.
This is certainly not some tawdry, coldly calculated, carefully choreographed, elegantly edited, highly marketable product to be vaunted blood-thirstily upon the masses with a label, tune list of your faves, and a paragraph or two on the back of anecdotal information to make you feel you "know" them all as friends.
Rule Of Thumb: NOTHING is spontaneous anymore.
# Posted on September 28th 2011 by Piece
Re: Transatlantic Sessions 5
'...must have had orders to adopt permanent dreamy, insipid smiles.'
Except for the lovely Julie Fowlis, as seen here!:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fb8AVVlAltk&feature=related
# Posted on September 28th 2011 by amhrán
Re: Transatlantic Sessions 5
Lovely.
Got to have those visuals.
It is music, after all.
Wait a minute...
# Posted on September 28th 2011 by Piece
Re: Transatlantic Sessions 5
As traditionally experienced via the radio or CD player or live with a bag on one's head ?
# Posted on September 28th 2011 by David50
Re: Transatlantic Sessions 5
A total performance, with every detail in place and well thought out and rehearsed, can be a lovely thing.
I simply have a preference for spontaneity and honesty. I do not think I will ever be able to cop a false smile and perform that comradely nod/wink/whatever because the cameras are rolling. In any case, the truth is quite enough for me - great musicians are creating a magnificent noise, and I love what the series has to offer, particularly anything at all from Mr. Bain.
It is a great cake, why slather it with mediocre icing?
# Posted on September 28th 2011 by Piece
Re: Transatlantic Sessions 5
Aaaaaarrrgghhh !!!!
Now I can't watch the clips without noticing the cutaways to facial expressions !
The show has been ruined for me.
# Posted on September 28th 2011 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Transatlantic Sessions 5
I am reliably informed that each each set is completed in three runs through only: once for rehearsal and sound checking, second is the actual take, and the third for further camera angles. I think that is pretty impressive.
I'm fairly confident that most of the smiles are genuine, seeing how fired-up great players get at making new arrangements with fellow musicians. Away with the cynicism that destroys all beauty.
# Posted on September 29th 2011 by portnasaol
Re: Transatlantic Sessions 5
That fits with what various musicians have said in radio interviews. If they can't make the the use of the third run through undetectable then it spoils the illusion, or maybe diguises the spontaneity that is there in a newly worked-out arrangement. Maybe it is because the close ups only show one side of an exchange of expressions whearas if they were on stage we would see both. It distracts me from the music.
# Posted on September 29th 2011 by David50
Re: Transatlantic Sessions 5
Guernsey Pete:
Sorry about that, really.
I would not contribute to ruining it for anyone, especially a series which has brought to my own screen so many musicicans I might not have "seen" otherwise.
My apologies.
# Posted on September 29th 2011 by Piece
Re: Transatlantic Sessions 5
At least we get a chance to see and hear Mary Black at her best. She has a wonderful voice, but her popular recordings are not really my sort of thing - I'd rather hear this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VqEtpOdhTE
# Posted on September 29th 2011 by RichardB
Re: Transatlantic Sessions 5
I like the idea of it but somehow it doesn't really do much for me on TV. Might work on radio...
# Posted on September 29th 2011 by harmonic miner
Re: Transatlantic Sessions 5
Its OK Pete, you can watch the latest show. They fixed it. And the only obvious to-the-camera smile was done with humour.
# Posted on October 2nd 2011 by David50
Re: Transatlantic Sessions 5
I look forward to it being accessible down in the South ( ie England ). I'd always had the idea that they did the music, basically, in one take after rehearsal, but as i also work as a film extra I know how many times one can be asked to do something again, to get that minute variation on action and reaction, which will then be edited in to the final take.
Spent yesterday playing the bodhran for an elderly Lady Gaga wannabee for a commercial - the daft things you do for money.
# Posted on October 4th 2011 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Transatlantic Sessions 5
"I look forward to it being accessible down in the South ( ie England ). Doesn't this -http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b015frjm/Transatlantic_Sessions_Series_5_Episode_1/ - work inside the M25 ?
# Posted on October 4th 2011 by David50
Re: Transatlantic Sessions 5
One of my favourite TS clips - from the first series:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sBPTuAl2Qyk
# Posted on October 4th 2011 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Transatlantic Sessions 5
I think that was the song that Aly Bain talked about when he was interviewed by Barbara Dixon earlier this year. IIRC the comment was along the lines of "She didn't take her eyes off him for a second - you could never be sure what he was going to do"
# Posted on October 4th 2011 by David50
Re: Transatlantic Sessions 5
Pompous drunk with a fake American accent. Who needs that stuff?
# Posted on October 4th 2011 by Jack Campin
Re: Transatlantic Sessions 5
That's rather unkind.
# Posted on October 4th 2011 by Johnny Jay
Re: Transatlantic Sessions 5
So I see Jack's bitterness has drifted across 2 forums now. Away and toot your recorder and leave us in peace.
# Posted on October 4th 2011 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Transatlantic Sessions 5
Only two?
I wouldn't say that Jack's comment was unkind, John J., but prefer 'fecking disgraceful'!
# Posted on October 4th 2011 by MacCruiskeen
Re: Transatlantic Sessions 5
The Mary Black clip RichardB linked to wasn't from the Transatlantic Sessions - did she have anything comparably good in that?
(I'm not about to suffer through hours of John Martyn and similar dreck to find out).
# Posted on October 4th 2011 by Jack Campin
Re: Transatlantic Sessions 5
I quoted the interview referring to the clip that NCA linked because it was I thought of when reading Piece's posts above complaining about lack of sponteniety etc. Seeing the way way these performers apear in different line-ups and guest on each others sets at festivals etc I have to believe that their musicianship is such that they can do it with minimal rehearsal. Awsome. I think it was the same interview where Jerry Douglas's ability to do that in recording sessions was commented on.
# Posted on October 4th 2011 by David50
Re: Transatlantic Sessions 5
I'll agree with NCFA and MacCruiskeen. Very easy to insult someone when he's dead. I doubt very much Jack Campin would have called John Martyn " a pompous drunk with a fake American accent" to his face. Go on Jack, tell me I'm wrong.
# Posted on October 4th 2011 by Kenny
Re: Transatlantic Sessions 5
...and to answer Jack's rather stupid question, nobody "needs that stuff", but apparently quite a lot of people enjoy it. Not me, in fact, but I don't need to feel superior about it.
# Posted on October 4th 2011 by Kenny
Re: Transatlantic Sessions 5
I never met the guy but "maundering empty-headed pretentious mediocrity" was more the description I had in mind after wasting an hour of my life listening to him live.
Quite what a Scottish acoustic rocker who spent his life trying not very successfully to turn himself into a Californian middle-aged-pop clone has do with Irish tradition beats me. I guess a lot of people here are of the appropriate generation that he pushes nostalgia buttons.
# Posted on October 4th 2011 by Jack Campin
Re: Transatlantic Sessions 5
Jack, I understand you can be quite nostalgic yourself.
# Posted on October 4th 2011 by Batgirl has left the GPL ;)
Re: Transatlantic Sessions 5
I met him - I liked him. He never claimed to have anything to do with Irish tradition. Generation and nostalgia have nothing to do with it. A lot of people just liked his music, and I'm not going to be the arrogant prick who tells them they were wrong.
# Posted on October 4th 2011 by Kenny
Re: Transatlantic Sessions 5
I wonder if John Martyn would have "wasted an hour of 'his' life" listening to you tooting away on your recorder Jack?
John Martyn sold a lot of records and his songs are widely appreciated and respected.
# Posted on October 4th 2011 by Minerva McGonagall
Re: Transatlantic Sessions 5
"Pompous drunk with a fake American accent.!
Pompous? Not the impression I got. Drunk? Yep, quite often. Sometimes too drunk to get through a gig. However, the first time I saw him, around 1973, he rolled a joint on stage, and there wasn't a hint of him being blootered. He had a very English accent - though that was a gig at Lancaster Uni. The English accent would be prominent at that gig. It was an accent much like it is on here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LDPHCfOZ6wo&feature=related
Not too surprising as he was born in Surrey. However, the fact that he went to school in the south side of Glasgow did help him with the patter. Hear the contrasts in these two clips:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nkd2mDoSDbg&NR=1
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio2/events/folkawards2008/johnmartyn.shtml
The times when he turned up at the club in Kilmarnock, he always came across as being quite genuine. I never heard an American accent. Or did you mean when he was singing, Jack? Well, it was kind of reaching over the Atlantic at times, but he was not unique in that respect.
# Posted on October 4th 2011 by Weejie
Re: Transatlantic Sessions 5
Its not unusual for someone to pick up an accent from where they stay but drop back into one closer that of where they were from when speaking to people from near there. Doesn't mean they are not genuine or that it is deliberate.
# Posted on October 4th 2011 by David50
Re: Transatlantic Sessions 5
My brothers claim that after I lived in Virginia for seven years, I never talked the same afterward. Y'all.
# Posted on October 4th 2011 by AlBrown
Re: Transatlantic Sessions 5
If this may help end your suffering, Mr. Campin, you're most certainly welcome ~
Mary Black - Siúil A Rúin (Ep. 1)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRaoAtOB5y8
Mary Black - Óró 'sé do bheatha 'bhaile (Ep. 3)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VqEtpOdhTE
Mary Black ~ Bruach na Carraige Baine (Ep. 5)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=117M-KcwcnY
Mo Ghile Mear ~ Mary Black, Iarla Ó Lionáird, Mary Ann Kennedy, Karen Matheson, Karan Casey & Allan MacDonald (Ep. 6)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Ojy1W6r8L0
;)
# Posted on October 5th 2011 by Batgirl has left the GPL ;)
Re: Transatlantic Sessions 5
"Its not unusual for someone to pick up an accent from where they stay but drop back into one closer that of where they were from when speaking to people from near there. Doesn't mean they are not genuine or that it is deliberate. "
Absolutely. However, those two clips kind of put that "American accent" oot the windae somewhat.
# Posted on October 5th 2011 by Weejie
Re: Transatlantic Sessions 5
"If this may help end your suffering, Mr. Campin...."
Nah, reach for the salt for to rub in the wound:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x1XTOAcnWJY&feature=related
That's a wannabe Californian middle-aged-pop clone for you.
# Posted on October 5th 2011 by Weejie
Re: Transatlantic Sessions 5
Weejie, you're the numptie.
What makes you think any of those links are actually to Mary Black singing?
Cheers little bunny.
# Posted on October 5th 2011 by Batgirl has left the GPL ;)
Re: Transatlantic Sessions 5
"What makes you think any of those links are actually to Mary Black singing?"
Well, I'm not in the habit of opening up all those YouTube links. I took your word for the descriptions. Looks like I was mistaken. I don't see that as numptiferous - just trusting. Again, I was mistaken to trust you.
I won't be describing the beastie (that's an animal, by the way) that fits your shoes on this forum.
# Posted on October 5th 2011 by Weejie
Re: Transatlantic Sessions 5
Having opened one of the links, it appears that it is labelled fairly accurately. Have you had your pills yet, Babsie?
# Posted on October 5th 2011 by Weejie
Re: Transatlantic Sessions 5
You are fun bunny, deary.
# Posted on October 5th 2011 by Batgirl has left the GPL ;)
~
FWIW, Mr. Campin was looking for information regarding Mary Black singing *on Transatlantic Sessions* which might meet his approval. At this point I doubt he has found a satisfactory solution to his self imposed dilemma.
# Posted on October 5th 2011 by Batgirl has left the GPL ;)
Re: Transatlantic Sessions 5
"FWIW, Mr. Campin was looking for information regarding Mary Black singing *on Transatlantic Sessions* which might meet his approval. At this point I doubt he has found a satisfactory solution to his self imposed dilemma"
I figured out what your post was about. However, my post was suggesting that rather than try and find a solution to the dilemma, it might be better to give him some more material for his constructive criticism - more of his "Scottish acoustic rocker who spent his life trying not very successfully to turn himself into a Californian middle-aged-pop clone".
The little ironic point being Martyn's rendition of Spencer the Rover (a little ditty he apparently gleaned from the Copper Family) on that clip, complete with accompaniment from messrs Bain, Thompson, Cunningham and Ungar, is about as far removed from "Californian middle-aged-pop" music as your posts are from being witty.
# Posted on October 5th 2011 by Weejie
Are sure you don't use emoticons?
# Posted on October 5th 2011 by Batgirl has left the GPL ;)
Re: Transatlantic Sessions 5
"However, those two clips kind of put that "American accent" oot the windae somewhat. " The spoken words at the end the earlier clip do that. I don't like it when singers seem to be "putting on an accent". But some compromises over vowels (especially) when rendering prose from written by someone with a different accent, or as in that case, when singing with someone with a different accent, seems OK. Its a bit like poetry not working in translation.
# Posted on October 5th 2011 by David50
Re: Transatlantic Sessions 5
" I don't like it when singers seem to be "putting on an accent".
Sometimes, though, it goes with the territory. Martyn's particular brand of music seems to fit into a genre where the mid-Atlantic accent prevails. The same thing happens in Irish singing. Where do you draw the line? Singers from continental Europe singing Dubliners songs with an attempt at the accent, or Shane MacGowan, whose family are Irish and he spent his early childhood there, but his years in London are reflected in his accent - except when he's singing?
It's easy to get annoyed by any of it, but it's also worth accepting it sometimes - and Martyn's singing accent never really seemed out of place with his style of music.
# Posted on October 5th 2011 by Weejie
Re: Transatlantic Sessions 5
But do Singers 'put on ' accents? IMO thats probably how they learnt it;, by ear. So a good singer, listening carefully will pick up every nuance of the piece, just as a good tune smith would do the same.
# Posted on October 5th 2011 by piobagusfidil
Re: Transatlantic Sessions 5
"But do Singers 'put on ' accents? IMO thats probably how they learnt it;, by ear. So a good singer, listening carefully will pick up every nuance of the piece, just as a good tune smith would do the same. "
I'm not sure if Shane MacGowan would have learned "The Band Played Waltzing Matilda" as a song with the accent he adopts (written by a guy from Peebles living in Australia). It fluctuates from something nondescript to a definite Irish edge.
And Martyn's "Spencer the Rover" is not in the style of the Copper Family. They have become stamped by the singer - I don't think that is a sign of a bad singer. It's too easy to try and impersonate Christy Moore when singing some of his repertoire (including "Bunch of Thyme" which he apparently first heard in Cumbria - yet he stamped his own mark on it). Likewise, I don't think this is the sign of a good singer either.
# Posted on October 5th 2011 by Weejie
Re: Transatlantic Sessions 5
Well yes fair enough , accents are a funny thing but I maintain my position , If a singer or player sits for hours poring over a recording, rewinding, catching the words, phrasing, intonation ornamentation then of course, to some extent [ if he is successful,] he will sound something like the thing hes copying.
Now granted as the years/decades pass It will become his own , but a careful listener, knowing where the tune was learn from ,will still find traces of it.
I know plenty of people who learnt like this and sing the songs in the accent they first heard it sung.
Your examples mean nothing unless you have first hand knowledge of how they learnt their songs. any song can be picked up from a book and sung in any manner whatsoever , just like a tune.
My point was about EAR learning , listening to what they're saying , not what you think they might be saying, thats careful listening....
# Posted on October 5th 2011 by piobagusfidil
Re: Transatlantic Sessions 5
I suppose I meant - *I* don't like it when it sounds wrong to *me*. It had never occured to me that there was anything odd about Martyn's accent when singing. Its must be hard for those continental Europeans singing Dubliners songs if they want the pronunciation to sound right and the rhymes to work but still sound like themselves. Like a class of English school kids singing partially anglicized Scottish songs... I suppose one answer is not to do it.
# Posted on October 5th 2011 by David50
Re: Transatlantic Sessions 5
"Your examples mean nothing unless you have first hand knowledge of how they learnt their songs."
It's enough to know, for example, that Christy Moore got "Bunch of Thyme" from a folk club in Bowness (he said so himself). He gets his songs from all over but I've not heard him sing any of them in an accent other than his own distinctive one. Paul Brady is another example. I've not heard him sing traditional songs in any accent other than his own distinctive (Tyrone?) one. I doubt if he got all his songs from that area.
I understand what you are saying, but it doesn't follow that emulating the national/regional accent of your source is a sign of a "good singer". Perhaps a sign of a good singer is when everyone tries to copy your own version of a song - complete with accent. It shows you have a distinct version which people see fit to copy.
# Posted on October 5th 2011 by Weejie
Re: Transatlantic Sessions 5
"My point was about EAR learning , listening to what they're saying ,"
You can listen to what's being said and still sing it in your own accent. It doesn't make the version a bad one if you do.
# Posted on October 5th 2011 by Weejie
Re: Transatlantic Sessions 5
John Doyle and John McCusker!
# Posted on October 5th 2011 by SmashTheWindows
Re: Transatlantic Sessions 5
Well weejie I accede that any definition of 'good' is subjective and though we might not agree its I enjoy the chance to chat and consider the different views.
Your points re Christy and co are very true but its hard to say how they got their songs , was it one night, heard the song, went and found it in a book?
After all Ive spent hundreds of hours getting the words of songs , especially Dick Gaughan and Robin Williams off old cassettes and its not easy , much much easier to find it written!
I mean a lot of their songs are Irish songs, sung by the Irish so an Irishman picking up the song by ear would naturally sing it in his own way. But if the source is American, by ear, then it seems reasonable to me that they sing it as they heard it and if it sounds right t them to sing it as they heard it well fair play to them. I have to admit to a dislike of most of that genre and it sounds wierd to me an Irishman singing in an American Accent, but there you go, I dont think they are 'putting on' and accent, its how they hear it in their minds.
Look at the tunes, non natives are often trying to play them in a 'Authentic Irish' fashion , rolls etc etc They are imitating an Irish Manner of playing, the accent.... Surely then thats exactly the same as singing an American song with an American accent? Its trying to be faithful to source.
When an American plays an Irish tune in an American fashion dont they call it blue grass?
# Posted on October 5th 2011 by piobagusfidil
Re: Transatlantic Sessions 5
"When an American plays an Irish tune in an American fashion dont they call it blue grass?"
Well, they might - but bluegrass is specific. Many Irish tunes are adapted as old time tunes by Americans. I think the differences between instrumental accents and national accents are something else. You wouldn't necessarily lose the 'flavour' if you sang it without putting on the regional accent. However, if you were to slavishly copy a song, complete with accent, you could be said to be lacking originality. This could even be said of tunes. Would you necessarily copy every roll and cut, ending up with a carbon copy of the original?
To take it to ridiculous extremes, if you got a song from someone of the opposite gender, would you sing in the same pitch?
"Your points re Christy and co are very true but its hard to say how they got their songs ,"
He has said that he got certain songs from recordings.
I think the point is that it is not wrong or poor musicianship to put your own interpretation on any tune or song, but to slavishly copy something, though it may be an indication of a good ear, runs the risk of being thought of as lacking originality.
" I dont think they are 'putting on' and accent, its how they hear it in their minds."
If that's the case, then, as you say, fair play.
I do remember long ago hearing someone sing "Big Yellow Taxi" at Carrbridge festival. Not only was this girl obviously trying hard to sound like Joni Mitchell, she even did the 'high voice/low voice bit at the end - and the laugh! It didn't strike me as being too clever (as she didn't really sound like the original artist). It came across more as an impersonation attempt than anything else. I think that's where you would have to tread carefully.
# Posted on October 6th 2011 by Weejie
Re: Transatlantic Sessions 5
"When an American plays an Irish tune in an American fashion dont they call it blue grass?"
no, no, no.
way oversimplification and shows an complete misunderstanding of American fiddle styles.
# Posted on October 6th 2011 by Wyogal
Re: Transatlantic Sessions 5
Fair enough Weejie, theres always a different take on things! I agree re slavish copying, but where is the line drawn? I actually think that there is way to much slavish copying in the genre at this time, so few fiddlers stand out above the crowd say.
But as a learner thats how I learnt the music, copying and over the decades I have developed on the principles originally learnt.
For example about 30 yrs ago I learnt Janis Joplins; Mercedes Benz., Now if I sing it how do I pronounce Mercedes Benz. ? I have no natural way of pronouncing the words because I have never, to my recollection, ever said those words out side of the song, its either 'merc' or its not. Its not part of my vocabulary.
Her diction, pronunciation everything is a part of the piece as I have it in my head , I honestly have no idea how I would sing the words, with the melody as I have it in my head , without her pronunciation[ to an extent] . I have no other references, Ive never heard it sung by another , no books , just an Album as a teenager.
Accents are funny things, they can be changed picked up, modified. but the unconscious part of it is that we speak as we heard it spoken growing up, we can consciously learn to modify/change an accent but most of us dont.
No ones going to slag us because we speak in an accent which we learnt by ear from careful listening from our parents if its our ' natural ' accent. .
A friend of mine , a Lynch, speaks with an 'English ' accent growing up in the UK, but when he 'imitates' his dad , he has a broad Cork Accent. Which is the natural accent and which is the ' learnt ' accent?
Back to big yellow taxi, obviously I dont know if she was consciously imitating an accent or singing it as she hears it from in-depth listening and neither do you.
After all, back to the tunes, is an American, 'putting on 'an Irish fiddle style [accent], intentionally attempting to sound Irish' or are they simply playing it as they hear it? Are they lacking originality? or will they imbue the piece with their own accent as the decades progress? Are they a lesser player/singer because they sound Irish/American? when they are not?
My mum lived for many years in the states, when her friend rings her she slips straight into a American 'Twang'. Similarly when she speaks French , she has a French accent. not consciously but thats how she learnt it.
Learning any language, the accent, is a part of it, because we learn by ear. If you speak French with a strong English accent it sounds terrible and wont be understood anyhow, same with Spanish, the accent, stress is Part of the language.
Thats why IMO a good listener will pick up all these subtle variations , stresses etc . To then consciously try to 'put on' their own natural [learnt] accent is IMO the conscious modification of the learnt [natural] accent . Its like learning French with French pronunciation then consciously trying to speak French in your ' natural ' accent so as to be 'original'!
# Posted on October 6th 2011 by piobagusfidil
Re: Transatlantic Sessions 5
Anyone know what the 2 reels are which Aly & Phil play at the start of the program (#1)?
# Posted on October 6th 2011 by domhnall.
Re: Transatlantic Sessions 5
"Back to big yellow taxi, obviously I dont know if she was consciously imitating an accent or singing it as she hears it from in-depth listening and neither do you. "
It wasn't the actual accent that struck me, it was that laugh at the end. It was an attempt at a carbon copy of the record (what else could it be with that laugh?). That would be fine if it was supposed to be an impersonation (I'll always request that Johnny Silvo does his Satchmo impersonation when I'm at one of his gigs) but this was just announced as "a song written by Joni Mitchell".
"My mum lived for many years in the states, when her friend rings her she slips straight into a American 'Twang'. Similarly when she speaks French , she has a French accent. not consciously but thats how she learnt it."
I'm one of those people who picks up accents too. I'm inclined to slip into certain accents when in the company of folk from the same area. The example of John Martyn with his London and Glasgow accents was also given. That (rather annoying IMO) actor geezer John Barrowman speaks with his Illinois American accent normally, but in the company of his family, he lapses into Glaswegian (this was displayed in a genealogy programme). I find Kevin Burke's accent fascinating. A mish-mash of accents - it seems that his years in Oregon have added an extra twang to his London/Irish mix.
Obviously, there are various reasons as to why someone may sing in an accent other than their own (and singing in another language is one - it follows that it would be more authentic to sing with an accent other than your own in such circumstances). Nevertheless, there are occasions where you might decide where the line should be drawn - three examples (not for those of a nervous disposition):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7g3W-SOZ0Q&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zWK_GNROhc&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWbZopGC1T4&feature=related
# Posted on October 6th 2011 by Weejie
Re: Transatlantic Sessions 5
I think Ewan MacColl got it right on this one - singers should restrict themselves to songs from their own tradition. That way there is never any need to affect an accent.
Enjoy listening to songs from other traditions, but don't try to perform them. Someone who has never been West of Glasgow singing about "hoboin' on the railroad", or a middle-class Englishman singing about the highland clearances (even if he does try to put on the accent) is at best pointless, and at worst offensive to the people whose tradition he is defiling.
# Posted on October 6th 2011 by skreech
Re: Transatlantic Sessions 5
What? Are you saying the Irish should only sing Irish songs, the Americans should only sing American songs, the Scottish should only sing Scottish songs, the English should only sing English songs, the Aussies should only sing Aussie songs, and that's just sticking with English-speakers in predominantly English-speaking countries! God forbid any choir which is not made up of German-speakers attempt the sections of the Carmina Burana that are in German. And choral music in Latin should be restricted to a handful of people in Rome and a few academics with PhDs in Latin.
That's one of the most idiotic ideas I've ever read on the Mustard Board, and you get some doozies here.
Why is a middle-class Englishman singing about the Clearances "pointless" or "offensive?" Because his ancestors may have perpetuated them (and, boy, are there some issues with that blanket claim)? Because he himself didn't experience them (and unless you know 200-year old Highlanders, no one you will meet from there will have experienced them, either)? Should we only be allowed to sing songs within our own personal realm of "cultural experience?" If that's the case, maybe your Englishman *can* sing about the Clearances because his great-great grandfather was from Assynt.
We can play Reductio Ad Absurdum endlessly. I have book by an American historian based at UPenn comparing constructions of infanticide in Scots ballads to ones in Scots law from around the same time (17th -18th century). I once got into an argument with someone over whether or not an American academic at UPenn should or should not written such a book, whether said book would have been better if written by a Scottish person. So think about that.
In the meantime, back to work writing about.... wait for it....
The Highland Clearances (well, sort of)
# Posted on October 6th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Transatlantic Sessions 5
"I think Ewan MacColl got it right on this one - singers should restrict themselves to songs from their own tradition."
Well, it's a safe option. However, it's rather ironic that McColl's own composition (and he was born in Salford - of Scots parentage) "Dirty Old Town" (about Salford) is more often than not these days heard sung in a "Dublin" accent.
If you take the song "The Lakes of Ponchartrain", which obviously has American connections, the most well known versions are probably those sung by Christy Moore and Paul Brady. Although there are early examples of the song being in Ireland, there is no definite answer to the origins of the song. There is a Canadian version (The Banks of the Similkameen) and variants from the US. Without going into the origins of the actual song, apparently, Paul Brady got the song from Christy Moore, who got the song from Mike Waterson. So you have this version crossing the Irish Sea. I don't think we'd be better off having been spared Paul Brady's version (OK, some people might not even like the song) - so it's fortunate that he didn't heed the advice from McColl about sticking to your own tradition.
I'm sure there are other examples of songs being adopted into different traditions which have become well known in that tradition. Yep, there's nothing wrong with a tradition like Sean-nós or those of the Western Isles of Scotland (and there may be examples of songs from other areas being adopted into those traditions), but there's also room for songs from other traditions to be brought in. Surely it can only add to the richness (though the puritanical folk out there might not see it that way). The accent doesn't necessarily have to go with the song.
As for the Glaswegian "hobo" singers, there is quite a tradition of American songs being sung in Glasgow. Some examples migh be wanting a little, but in my experience, I've not come across anyone from across the Atlantic being offended by it.
Here's an Indian born Glaswegian doing a 'hobo style' song (with the late Bert Jansch appearing) - first number:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kkoYr6lqy4
Nowt wrong with it IMO.
# Posted on October 6th 2011 by Weejie
Re: Transatlantic Sessions 5
One 'put down' of the Ewan MacColl dictum that I have heard several times is along the lines of "Own tradition - he wasn't even using his own name !"
Those folks on Weejie's first clip (singing Henry Martin) seemed to be having fun and entertaining people - but to my ear anyone not wanting not to sound like they learned it off an early Joan Baez record would have to handle "and they did cast lots" differently.
Should Joan Baez have been 'allowed' to sing all those English and Scottish ballads collected in the USA ?
# Posted on October 6th 2011 by David50
Re: Transatlantic Sessions 5
Yes, that's a good point as well. I hear loads of Glaswegians singing American songs around here. Am I offended? Nope. Do I care? So long as they're not totally crap singers, nope.
# Posted on October 6th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Transatlantic Sessions 5
Emily, I think you've miss my point a little - what I was desribing as 'pointless' and 'offensive' has little to do with content, and everything to do with accent.
Try a little experiment - Go into a Glasgow pub and sing a Burns song. You have two choices - you could sing it in your own accent, which will sound absurd and you'll probably get laughed off stage. Or you could put on a Scots accent to sing. In which case people will assume you are taking the pish. So if you can't sing a Scots song in Scotland without it being either laughable or offensive, why would that change if you do it somewhere else?
MacColl's rule might have been a bit too black and white - there are many songs that do cross cultural borders quite happily. But those songs all have two factors in common: 1. they don't make specific reference to the culture they come from, and 2. they don't need to be sung with a specific accent to make the meter and rhyming work. As far as I am concerned, if a singer has to affect an accent to make a song work, it's a no-no. If British and Irish people are going to put on American accents and sing American songs, why not go the whole hog and dress up as cowboys too?
Translate that back to your American professor, and I have no problem at all with her writing about highland history as a third party observer. But if she were to write the book in Doric, I would have a lot of trouble taking it seriously. And that is the equivalent of putting on an accent to sing a song from outside your own culture.
# Posted on October 6th 2011 by skreech
Re: Transatlantic Sessions 5
This is curious: http://www.dragonar.co.uk/folklyrics/threecrows.htm
I found it whilst researching before telling you about a Glaswegian called Dougie who I used to share an office with. If we had pronounced his name they way he did he would have thought we were taking the p*ss about his accent. If we pronounced it the English way he would have been p*ssed off (and probably though it was an oblique way of taking the p*ss). So we said it his way in an English accent. Down the pub one night he taught us the Three Crows (version as linked without the macaronic bits) and we had fun trying to make it sound 'right'. After that we could say "wasna there at a'" in as good or bad immitation of his accent as we could manage and he didn't mind.
# Posted on October 6th 2011 by David50
Re: Transatlantic Sessions 5
On re-reading it wasn't quite that version, it was sillier.
# Posted on October 6th 2011 by David50
Re: Transatlantic Sessions 5
Just noticed that I crossed with skreech. Partially, at least, we were making the same point.
# Posted on October 6th 2011 by David50
Re: Transatlantic Sessions 5
Chris Thile, an American bluegrass mandolinist, did a very fine (IMHO) version of "Flow Gently Sweet Afton" when he was with the bluegrass band, Nickel Creek. It didn't sound in the least bit absurd. I'm not going to tell him that he should not have sung that, as he is from California. Are you?
British and Irish people sing American songs with American accents (to various degrees) all the time. I remember a roomful of Scots and English singing Paul Simon's "The Boxer" at Moniaive earlier this year. Very American song, that one. I didn't see anything wrong with it (except it turned a perfectly good tune session into the Paul Simon tribute sing-song).
# Posted on October 6th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Transatlantic Sessions 5
Ok but people are still assuming that the singers 'put on' an accent, unless you have first hand experience as a singer doing so, or have discussed it with someone who has done so, why are you making this assumption? IMO your simply projecting your ideas onto someone else without the faintest clue if that is infact the case. It might be, but it might not....
@Skreetch, if you want to play trad, in an 'authentic Irish ' [ whatever that is ]manner then you need to incorporate the numerous stylistic flourishes, the accent. You could play the same tune in a Care Breton, or Shetland or Donegal or Clare fashion, very different , but the same tune. This is the accent, so effectively what your saying is that if your not Irish you shouldn't play the tunes in an 'Irish accent 'but in your own regional accent.... or not play the tunes at all if your not Irish/Scots etc are you prepared to accept this corollary? Im curious.
@weejie; re her laugh, well it could simply be she is making a subtle reference to where she learnt it knowing that some in the audience would recognise that and creating a 'us together ' vibe amongst the cognoscente, just a maybe
# Posted on October 6th 2011 by piobagusfidil
Re: Transatlantic Sessions 5
Emily,
If you mean this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X0ysoPuT1FU , I wouldn't go as far as telling him not to do it. But I wouldn't want to listen to it.
On the other hand, I'd happily listen to him doing this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3w8NQzCC70&feature=related all night.
# Posted on October 6th 2011 by skreech
Re: Transatlantic Sessions 5
To my English ear that odd mix of accents makes the Burns' words hard to follow.
)
(I notice that when agreeing Spear often start her posts with something other than "Yes"
# Posted on October 6th 2011 by David50
Re: Transatlantic Sessions 5
Talking of Burns:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_02djOT98Y&feature=related
Then this version gets taken up by Yuki and Hideyo from Japan:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_Adqz1i6Xg
Offended? No way.
# Posted on October 6th 2011 by Weejie
Re: Transatlantic Sessions 5
I noticed that the clip Mark posted was of a gig in Ayrshire with Phil Cunningham on the bouzouki. Obviously a bunch of Ayrshire folk and Phil didn't mind an American singing Burns!
It's coming down to arguments about taste. I've always loved Thile's version of "Sweet Afton" since my friend gave me a Nickel Creek album while I was in college (there -- switching to American dialect). I suppose I see your argument as too broad and too crude to account for reality and other people's taste.
# Posted on October 6th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Transatlantic Sessions 5
" If British and Irish people are going to put on American accents and sing American songs, why not go the whole hog and dress up as cowboys too? "
Some of them do.
Of course many of those pioneers in North America came from Britain and Ireland too. Real cowboys.
The presence even among Native Americans was not unknown:
http://www.scotclans.com/bletherskite/?p=1285
http://www.electricscotland.com/history/america/chief_macintosh.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osceola
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Kennedy_Isbister
# Posted on October 6th 2011 by Weejie
Re: Transatlantic Sessions 5
piobagusfidil, There is no assumption. If someone sings in a different accent to how they talk they are putting on an accent. Simples.
)
As to your comparison with tunes, personally, if I hear a tune from a Clare or Shetland fiddler I might well learn that tune, but not by trying to exactly imitate the original player, it would be a case of taking the basic tune and playing it in my own style, my own accent. (Which is probably why I struggle when I visit sessions in other places
But the situation with songs is different because language is involved, and the language and accent have to match. If you take a song like The Boxer which SS mentioned earlier, the lyrics are all in standard English, so It works perfectly well on either side of the Atlantic. But if you take a song that mentions 'mom' or 'gals' or anything else that is uniquely American, it sounds stupid if you try to sing it in anything other than an American accent.
It's a problem I face the whole time: despite having lived in Scotland for 30+ years I still have a South of England accent. There are a number of Scottish songs that mean a hell of a lot to me, and I would love to be able to sing them. But I can't because of my accent. Nothing to do with my culture or anything else, it's simply down to the way I speak. If I sing a song that uses Scottish words with an English accent it sounds wrong. If I put on a Scottish accent to sing it makes a mockery of the whole thing. And to my ears exactly the same thing happens when someone puts on an American accent to sing an American song.
# Posted on October 6th 2011 by skreech
Re: Transatlantic Sessions 5
"I noticed that the clip Mark posted was of a gig in Ayrshire with Phil Cunningham on the bouzouki. Obviously a bunch of Ayrshire folk and Phil didn't mind an American singing Burns! "
McCusker is from the Baillieston area too, although he has Irish roots. Not so much as a grimace.
# Posted on October 6th 2011 by Weejie
Re: Transatlantic Sessions 5
This was linked here recently:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kL0A9bGQaZk
YMMV but I thought that was, on several levels, extremely cringe inducing.
# Posted on October 6th 2011 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: Transatlantic Sessions 5
"I think Ewan MacColl got it right on this one - singers should restrict themselves to songs from their own tradition. That way there is never any need to affect an accent."
He said that, did he? Bet he didn't say it to Peggy.
# Posted on October 6th 2011 by ethical blend
Re: Transatlantic Sessions 5
"YMMV but I thought that was, on several levels, extremely cringe inducing. "
Some of Steeleye Span's English material caused a few people to cringe, Prof. I've heard a lot worse attempts though.
# Posted on October 6th 2011 by Weejie
Re: Transatlantic Sessions 5
good link Prof, What to do with a song like that. it doesnt even make much sense in this day and age. Dont sing it? Its only half in English . How would you treat it if you were to sing it? Anyone?
# Posted on October 6th 2011 by piobagusfidil
Re: Transatlantic Sessions 5
" How would you treat it if you were to sing it?"
Probably more in a strathspey lilt for starters.
# Posted on October 6th 2011 by Weejie
Re: Transatlantic Sessions 5
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ReJ6bbXhSAc&feature=related
now thats a drum!
# Posted on October 6th 2011 by piobagusfidil
Re: Transatlantic Sessions 5
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ZDCXwftrCk&feature=related
Hmmm...
# Posted on October 6th 2011 by piobagusfidil
Re: Transatlantic Sessions 5
I was just about to post a link to the Corries too!
# Posted on October 6th 2011 by Weejie
Re: Transatlantic Sessions 5
Remember this singer?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dOyhkuZiurE&NR=1
I still think it suits a strathspey rhythm.
# Posted on October 6th 2011 by Weejie
Re: Transatlantic Sessions 5
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wt3FM5qEHa0&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wxINhuKG3B0&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wt3FM5qEHa0&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wt3FM5qEHa0&feature=related
Lots of versions here... Now heres a point, what if you dont know the nationality of the singer? Why should it make a difference really ?
# Posted on October 6th 2011 by piobagusfidil
Re: Transatlantic Sessions 5
A few familiar names here - even Gordon "the Nikon":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YY5SUl8_TbU&feature=related
# Posted on October 6th 2011 by Weejie
Re: Transatlantic Sessions 5
nearly every one says ' doot, in stead of doubt ..
talking of rhythm, its actually in a weird rhythm 4 and 2 , 6/4
# Posted on October 6th 2011 by piobagusfidil
Re: Transatlantic Sessions 5
What about when people with a mix of accents join in on a song chorus ? As well as trying to be together in time and in tune don't they usually try to blend the pronunciation a bit so as not to stand out too much ? I wonder if that is a similar process to how our accents change during economic migration.
Somewhere on the web is an article by Peggy Seeger that explaines the MacColl quote in context. (I can't remember but I think may have been venue-specific or something)
Americans reading Shakespeare often sounds OK - maybe it is them who are right.
# Posted on October 6th 2011 by David50
Re: Transatlantic Sessions 5
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qj5FmOV64fw&feature=related
# Posted on October 6th 2011 by piobagusfidil
Re: Transatlantic Sessions 5
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdbz29_5oW8&feature=related
!
# Posted on October 6th 2011 by piobagusfidil
Re: Transatlantic Sessions 5
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_M5EQ45GvpU&feature=related
Ah , now this is an interesting setting, hes changed the rhythm, and lyrics but retains a setting of the melody ..... and more Its probably the most 'authentic' version so far.
I tell you as an aside this type of 6/4 is well hard to strum. Its could be more accurately described as being in 2 rhythms, 4/4 and 2/4. Its definitely not 3/4.
# Posted on October 6th 2011 by piobagusfidil
Re: Transatlantic Sessions 5
hmm, the videos not to scintillating on this one;http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFRE5rRTNfI&feature=related
But better than this video...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpUEu2hfUg0&feature=related
I really cant sit through some of these settings, what was that about cringe factor earlier?
At least the pipers and the sextet didnt have to worry about pronouncing the words!
# Posted on October 6th 2011 by piobagusfidil
Re: Transatlantic Sessions 5
Boann!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cctzdLGlQiU&feature=related
# Posted on October 6th 2011 by piobagusfidil
Re: Transatlantic Sessions 5
Well, there you have it. A French group, including a player of a Swedish instrument, singing a Scottish song about a German king on the English throne.
A lot to be said for mixing traditions!
# Posted on October 6th 2011 by Weejie
Re: Transatlantic Sessions 5
I almost can't believe I am saying this but I agree with Emily and Weejie. Urghh - I feel dirty!
In all seriousness I sympathise with what you are saying Skreech. I was born in Scotland and I live in Scotland. As far as I am concerned I am very much Scottish. Nonetheless I grew up in England and I have a pretty English accent. I too have decided in the past not to attempt a song because it was in broad Scots and I didn't feel I could confidently pull it off. Nevertheless to say that someone shouldn't sing a song because it was not written to suit their own accent is more than a step too far. After all Aaron Jones is the main singer with the Old Blind Dogs these days and he is originally from Poole and you can't get much more South-of-England than that!
# Posted on October 6th 2011 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Transatlantic Sessions 5
Or to put it more simply (but without wanting to open a can of worms) but when you sing a song you are putting on a performance. There is no real reason why that can't involve putting on an accent if you so wish.
# Posted on October 6th 2011 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Transatlantic Sessions 5
It is a coincidence, but I am taking some sean nos singing lessons these days, and my teacher has us all imitating her not just note for note, but inflection, breathing, accent and all. She says now is the time to learn how to do it exactly the way she does it, and we can make it our own later. I probably will go back to something closer to my own accent later, as I sound pretty hoaky. But it is a good exercise to try to sound as much like her as possible up front, as I pick up other things as well, things that are a part of the sean nos style of singing, things I want to keep when I sing these songs myself.
# Posted on October 7th 2011 by AlBrown
Re: Transatlantic Sessions 5
I agree with Alistair (shock horror!
) that a song is very much a performance, a kind of dialogue between singer, song, and audience. When I listen to one, I really don't give a damn whether or not the singer is singing the "right" song in the "right" accent. If they present the song convincingly, in whatever manner suits them, and sing well, I'm happy to listen to it. I judge a singer on what I hear at that moment, not any preconceived notions about what individuals from certain countries with certain accents should or should not be singing.
Guilty pleasure admission time: I also like Steeleye Span, the Oyster Band, and that sort of English folky rocky group.
# Posted on October 7th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Transatlantic Sessions 5
We also just watched Transatlantic Sessions 5 tonight and I enjoyed it. Especially McGoldrick's bluegrass-ish uilleann piping. See, I'm not the rabid pure drop fiend people make me out to be.
How did we get into this argument again? The Americans on this episode were singing American songs anyway!
# Posted on October 7th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Transatlantic Sessions 5
Excellent stuff Al, IMO Your teacher has the idea spot on .
.
# Posted on October 7th 2011 by piobagusfidil