Odd forearm pain issue that seems related to B/C box
Odd forearm pain issue that seems related to B/C box
Here's a weird one. I started playing B/C box a few months ago and haven't found an equivalent arm pain issue over at the melodeon.net forum so I figured I'd check here as well.
I don't have any discomfort when actually playing the box, using a single strap and playing is extremely comfortable, instrument on my left side in the common Irish style, gravity and my left thigh anchoring the instrument quite well. I play with my thumb in the groove at the edge of the button board as is done for this style, but there is very little pressure against it.
After I play the box, I have this very strange issue where if I try to play the wooden flute or whistle, it really hurts my right arm to put my arm down with my palm facing forward. Picking up the flute/whistle isn't a problem, putting down is. It's really odd. No pain while playing, but pain when putting the instrument down. It seems to be some kind of tendon issue but I can't exactly isolate where it originates.
Playing concertina and Uilleann pipes don't cause any issues, its just this one motion that is extremely painful.
Other than the fact that it started after I started playing box, I can't connect the pain to any specific strain I'm putting on my arm. Perhaps I'm developing muscles that are in opposition to those used for the other instruments? It's very odd. I've had problems in the past on having pain when adapting to a new instrument, but not having a painless experience on one instrument cause pain when playing, or in this case simply putting down, another.
Re: Odd forearm pain issue that seems related to B/C box
When you are playing the box the radius and ulna in your right arm are parallel, and when you turn your hand to pick up / put down something, the bones cross over each other. Maybe there's a developing muscle in there that is getting squeezed?
Re: Odd forearm pain issue that seems related to B/C box
Michael, I've never experienced pain through practicing the box, and I've been playing for nine years now. You're very unlikely to be developing any new musculature since you won't be using much force, and you already play so much anyway.
You don't say exactly where the pain is. Is it where the tendons meet the hand at the wrist?
From what you've written it sounds quite severe - I'd be tempted to get a medical opinion. If it gets worse you might end up being unable to play.
Re: Odd forearm pain issue that seems related to B/C box
Agree with Eno -- sounds exactly like my tendinitis (not from playing the pipes, but aggravated by playing them). Mine's in the shoulder; where's yours?
I'd say hie thee to a doc; tendinitis presents just like you describe. It won't get better without a long rest (it sort of feeds on itself), but a shot of cortisone might speed that up.
I, the idiot, take anti-inflammatory drugs and play in spite of the pain, but the cure is rest until the inflammation goes away. I am not doing that because I want to get better on the pipes and I'm already old...
Re: Odd forearm pain issue that seems related to B/C box
It might get you teased by the cool kids, but I have always preferred using the good old two strap method, with the box strapped to my chest. For me, anyhow, much more comfortable.
Re: Odd forearm pain issue that seems related to B/C box
I play infrequently and when I do I sometimes have a pain on the outside of my elbow. I have put it down to the fact that I use a computer all day and my arm thinks that is the "normal" activity where the playing used to be. You might need to consider some stretching exercises if you use the mouse to do your work.
Re: Odd forearm pain issue that seems related to B/C box
I usually find that odd pains in the arms/wrist originate in tension behind the shoulder blade. This makes sense on the box, since you're using those muscles to maintain resistance against the bellows, and also doing fine-scaled work with your fingers at the same time.
Short-term fixes, if this is the cause, would include massage and stretching. Long term fix would involve attention to posture and possibly using a more gentle pressure on the bellows (so you're not forcing so much resistance). Attention to the air button might also be helpful. Good luck!
Re: Odd forearm pain issue that seems related to B/C box
The B/C box was invented by Pope Alexander VI, Leonardo da Vinci and Paganini in a crypt after doing funny things with bats and stuff. When the time was right the Rockefellers were instructed to introduce it into the world in a big way in order to cripple and confuse mankind.
I say this about B/Cs because I tried to play one and it beat me, that's all...
Re: Odd forearm pain issue that seems related to B/C box
I'd stop for a while if I were you. I hurt my wrist over the summer and now can't really play at all because I carried on playing. Go see a doctor, they don't bite!!!!!!
Re: Odd forearm pain issue that seems related to B/C box
Jon, I think you nailed it. I'm finding that stretching my shoulder with my arm across my chest while pulling in toward my body with the other arm is doing wonders to help with the problem. Thanks!
Re: Odd forearm pain issue that seems related to B/C box
I have experienced cuptial tunnel syndrome which involves the ulnar nerve. It caused me significant pain in my right arm and tingling in my ring and pinky fingers. Not sure if that's what it is, but a couple of visits to a chiropracter took care of it.
Re: Odd forearm pain issue that seems related to B/C box
Glad it helped. I'm pretty sure that was the most useful thing I learned in college.
I sometimes find that doing a few pushups helps those muscles to "reset" themselves, and let go a little. Might be hard to do this in the bar, but if you have these symptoms at home, it's good to know.
Re: Odd forearm pain issue that seems related to B/C box
I encountered pain at many stages during the first 5 of my 8 year relationship with the B/C box, at different times in shoulder, elbow, wrist and knuckle joints of both arms, and in the muscles associated with these areas.
In each case I've worked through the pain and tried to adapt posture, box position or arm alignment to improve matters.
When I began playing I used one strap and perched the box on my right thigh, stabilising the keybouard with my right thumb on the edge.
Over time the box has migrated to sit on my right thigh and I use two straps and a backstrap, whether playing seated or standing. The keyboard sits over the midline of my chest and the tendons that operate my right hand fingers are in a straight line.
I can now play hard for hours at a time and the only occasional ache is in the knuckle joint of my right hand's first finger, and that only after the longest hardest sessions.
The real key seems to be to focus the application of energy to bellows or buttons right down to just the period of the note to be played, and to be relaxed at all other times
Re: Odd forearm pain issue that seems related to B/C box
"The real key seems to be to focus the application of energy to bellows or buttons right down to just the period of the note to be played, and to be relaxed at all other times"
This.
As a rule, I find that it's good to work on finding the sweet spot, where you get the most return for the least energy. The other important thing is to look for and eliminate tension when you play. I don't find that the second strap is helpful - it moves more weight onto my back, where I don't want it - but if it works for you, then go for it. Try stuff, and the thing that makes you work the least is the right thing to do.
Re: Odd forearm pain issue that seems related to B/C box
I've found the second strap essential for playing standing up (which I do for a lot of the time). As I only use 2 voice boxes (or occasionally a Tommy) the weight isn't really an issue. The backstrap helps keep tension on the second strap, and this reduces the impact on my right thumb (braced against the edge of the keyboard) when I hit press notes hard.
I notice that when I play seated with one strap (both straps on right shoulder) my right hand thumb and first finger have a lot more work to do in stabilising the keyboard.
Perhaps on heavier boxes the greater inertia of extra reeds in the keyboard end of the instrument helps to absorb some of the impact of heavy press notes, keeping it more stable, so one strap may be the best solution there.
Having said all this, every box player I've met seems to have his or her own solution.
Your reference to melodeon.net is interesting. From scanning its forums I guess that most of the correspondents who actually play the box, use D/G, where the distribution of notes on the keyboard allow right hand to remain relatively static compared to B/C. This may put less stress on joints etc so perhaps the enjoy pain-free playing. I'd rather suffer a bit and reap the benfits of B/C.
Re: Odd forearm pain issue that seems related to B/C box
This is more and more as Jon suggested appearing to be a shoulder issue, probably related to some realignment of the joint from the strap weight, even as light as my Saltarelle is. I'm not having any hand, wrist or elbow pain during playing, but something is messing up my shoulder and causing other referred pain in my forearm. I'm just resting the arm, not playing box for a while, and doing lots of stretches.
Odd forearm pain issue that seems related to B/C box
Odd forearm pain issue that seems related to B/C box
Here's a weird one. I started playing B/C box a few months ago and haven't found an equivalent arm pain issue over at the melodeon.net forum so I figured I'd check here as well.
I don't have any discomfort when actually playing the box, using a single strap and playing is extremely comfortable, instrument on my left side in the common Irish style, gravity and my left thigh anchoring the instrument quite well. I play with my thumb in the groove at the edge of the button board as is done for this style, but there is very little pressure against it.
After I play the box, I have this very strange issue where if I try to play the wooden flute or whistle, it really hurts my right arm to put my arm down with my palm facing forward. Picking up the flute/whistle isn't a problem, putting down is. It's really odd. No pain while playing, but pain when putting the instrument down. It seems to be some kind of tendon issue but I can't exactly isolate where it originates.
Playing concertina and Uilleann pipes don't cause any issues, its just this one motion that is extremely painful.
Other than the fact that it started after I started playing box, I can't connect the pain to any specific strain I'm putting on my arm. Perhaps I'm developing muscles that are in opposition to those used for the other instruments? It's very odd. I've had problems in the past on having pain when adapting to a new instrument, but not having a painless experience on one instrument cause pain when playing, or in this case simply putting down, another.
Anyone else run into something like this?
Thanks,
Michael
# Posted on September 23rd 2011 by Michael Eskin
Re: Odd forearm pain issue that seems related to B/C box
When you are playing the box the radius and ulna in your right arm are parallel, and when you turn your hand to pick up / put down something, the bones cross over each other. Maybe there's a developing muscle in there that is getting squeezed?
# Posted on September 24th 2011 by gam
Re: Odd forearm pain issue that seems related to B/C box
Michael, I've never experienced pain through practicing the box, and I've been playing for nine years now. You're very unlikely to be developing any new musculature since you won't be using much force, and you already play so much anyway.
You don't say exactly where the pain is. Is it where the tendons meet the hand at the wrist?
From what you've written it sounds quite severe - I'd be tempted to get a medical opinion. If it gets worse you might end up being unable to play.
Hope you get it cleared up.
Eno
# Posted on September 24th 2011 by bc_box_player
Re: Odd forearm pain issue that seems related to B/C box
Agree with Eno -- sounds exactly like my tendinitis (not from playing the pipes, but aggravated by playing them). Mine's in the shoulder; where's yours?
I'd say hie thee to a doc; tendinitis presents just like you describe. It won't get better without a long rest (it sort of feeds on itself), but a shot of cortisone might speed that up.
I, the idiot, take anti-inflammatory drugs and play in spite of the pain, but the cure is rest until the inflammation goes away. I am not doing that because I want to get better on the pipes and I'm already old...
# Posted on September 24th 2011 by Marc C
Re: Odd forearm pain issue that seems related to B/C box
It might get you teased by the cool kids, but I have always preferred using the good old two strap method, with the box strapped to my chest. For me, anyhow, much more comfortable.
# Posted on September 24th 2011 by AlBrown
Re: Odd forearm pain issue that seems related to B/C box
Im no expert but i too experienced pain as you describe. Rest worked for me. But it took a long time - 6 weeks
# Posted on September 24th 2011 by riggers
Re: Odd forearm pain issue that seems related to B/C box
Thanks for the suggestion! Rest, ice, and stretching seems to be the order of the day...
# Posted on September 24th 2011 by Michael Eskin
Re: Odd forearm pain issue that seems related to B/C box
I play infrequently and when I do I sometimes have a pain on the outside of my elbow. I have put it down to the fact that I use a computer all day and my arm thinks that is the "normal" activity where the playing used to be. You might need to consider some stretching exercises if you use the mouse to do your work.
# Posted on September 24th 2011 by MorganYYZ
Re: Odd forearm pain issue that seems related to B/C box
I usually find that odd pains in the arms/wrist originate in tension behind the shoulder blade. This makes sense on the box, since you're using those muscles to maintain resistance against the bellows, and also doing fine-scaled work with your fingers at the same time.
Short-term fixes, if this is the cause, would include massage and stretching. Long term fix would involve attention to posture and possibly using a more gentle pressure on the bellows (so you're not forcing so much resistance). Attention to the air button might also be helpful. Good luck!
# Posted on September 24th 2011 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Odd forearm pain issue that seems related to B/C box
The B/C box was invented by Pope Alexander VI, Leonardo da Vinci and Paganini in a crypt after doing funny things with bats and stuff. When the time was right the Rockefellers were instructed to introduce it into the world in a big way in order to cripple and confuse mankind.
I say this about B/Cs because I tried to play one and it beat me, that's all...
# Posted on September 24th 2011 by nicholas
Re: Odd forearm pain issue that seems related to B/C box
I'd stop for a while if I were you. I hurt my wrist over the summer and now can't really play at all because I carried on playing. Go see a doctor, they don't bite!!!!!!
# Posted on September 25th 2011 by mandolinist
Re: Odd forearm pain issue that seems related to B/C box
Jon, I think you nailed it. I'm finding that stretching my shoulder with my arm across my chest while pulling in toward my body with the other arm is doing wonders to help with the problem. Thanks!
# Posted on September 25th 2011 by Michael Eskin
Re: Odd forearm pain issue that seems related to B/C box
I have experienced cuptial tunnel syndrome which involves the ulnar nerve. It caused me significant pain in my right arm and tingling in my ring and pinky fingers. Not sure if that's what it is, but a couple of visits to a chiropracter took care of it.
# Posted on September 25th 2011 by Celtic Guitar
Re: Odd forearm pain issue that seems related to B/C box
Glad it helped. I'm pretty sure that was the most useful thing I learned in college.
I sometimes find that doing a few pushups helps those muscles to "reset" themselves, and let go a little. Might be hard to do this in the bar, but if you have these symptoms at home, it's good to know.
# Posted on September 25th 2011 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Odd forearm pain issue that seems related to B/C box
I encountered pain at many stages during the first 5 of my 8 year relationship with the B/C box, at different times in shoulder, elbow, wrist and knuckle joints of both arms, and in the muscles associated with these areas.
In each case I've worked through the pain and tried to adapt posture, box position or arm alignment to improve matters.
When I began playing I used one strap and perched the box on my right thigh, stabilising the keybouard with my right thumb on the edge.
Over time the box has migrated to sit on my right thigh and I use two straps and a backstrap, whether playing seated or standing. The keyboard sits over the midline of my chest and the tendons that operate my right hand fingers are in a straight line.
I can now play hard for hours at a time and the only occasional ache is in the knuckle joint of my right hand's first finger, and that only after the longest hardest sessions.
The real key seems to be to focus the application of energy to bellows or buttons right down to just the period of the note to be played, and to be relaxed at all other times
that's how I see it anyway
good luck
# Posted on September 26th 2011 by millionyears_bc
Re: Odd forearm pain issue that seems related to B/C box
"The real key seems to be to focus the application of energy to bellows or buttons right down to just the period of the note to be played, and to be relaxed at all other times"
This.
As a rule, I find that it's good to work on finding the sweet spot, where you get the most return for the least energy. The other important thing is to look for and eliminate tension when you play. I don't find that the second strap is helpful - it moves more weight onto my back, where I don't want it - but if it works for you, then go for it. Try stuff, and the thing that makes you work the least is the right thing to do.
# Posted on September 26th 2011 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Odd forearm pain issue that seems related to B/C box
I've found the second strap essential for playing standing up (which I do for a lot of the time). As I only use 2 voice boxes (or occasionally a Tommy) the weight isn't really an issue. The backstrap helps keep tension on the second strap, and this reduces the impact on my right thumb (braced against the edge of the keyboard) when I hit press notes hard.
I notice that when I play seated with one strap (both straps on right shoulder) my right hand thumb and first finger have a lot more work to do in stabilising the keyboard.
Perhaps on heavier boxes the greater inertia of extra reeds in the keyboard end of the instrument helps to absorb some of the impact of heavy press notes, keeping it more stable, so one strap may be the best solution there.
Having said all this, every box player I've met seems to have his or her own solution.
Your reference to melodeon.net is interesting. From scanning its forums I guess that most of the correspondents who actually play the box, use D/G, where the distribution of notes on the keyboard allow right hand to remain relatively static compared to B/C. This may put less stress on joints etc so perhaps the enjoy pain-free playing. I'd rather suffer a bit and reap the benfits of B/C.
# Posted on September 27th 2011 by millionyears_bc
Re: Odd forearm pain issue that seems related to B/C box
The BBC are about to ban boxes in AD and BC.
You will all have to relearn in CE.
# Posted on September 27th 2011 by geoffwright
Re: Odd forearm pain issue that seems related to B/C box
This is more and more as Jon suggested appearing to be a shoulder issue, probably related to some realignment of the joint from the strap weight, even as light as my Saltarelle is. I'm not having any hand, wrist or elbow pain during playing, but something is messing up my shoulder and causing other referred pain in my forearm. I'm just resting the arm, not playing box for a while, and doing lots of stretches.
# Posted on September 27th 2011 by Michael Eskin
Re: Odd forearm pain issue that seems related to B/C box
You don't need a doctor, you just need a good phyisical therapist.
# Posted on September 29th 2011 by Ann M.
Re: Odd forearm pain issue that seems related to B/C box
sorry--*physical* I mean.
# Posted on September 29th 2011 by Ann M.
Re: Odd forearm pain issue that seems related to B/C box
Hah! I read that as "psychical" and was like, "Really? He needs to find someone who can do seances to sort out box-related pain?"
# Posted on September 29th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Odd forearm pain issue that seems related to B/C box
No, he just needs to go to the coffee shop...
and get a medium latte.
# Posted on September 29th 2011 by Jon Kiparsky