Hello everybody,
I'm new to The Session, but find it a marvellous resource.
About four years ago at the age of 40, I took up the mandolin because I loved the sound and I wanted to play traditional music. I hadn't played an instrument before and had no knowledge of music, though I can easily recognise particular tunes and hum along with them no problem.
I went along to classes (banjo) with Comhaltas in Dublin for three seasons but finally left in frustration. We learned a new tune each week, sometimes two. I found this too much, as I couldn't manage one whole tune in a week. Most of the others would just pick it up easily and then move on, leaving me very embarassed as I could only play a little bit of each tune. The teacher also told me that I could never really play properly unless I was able to play faster. There was a variety of people in the classes: some accomplished musicians, some beginners like myself. Anyway, I left in frustration and haven't picked up the instrument in two years.
I want to give it one more try before abandoning the dream of playing music forever. My question is this: would it be any better if I got a private teacher? My reasoning is that if I had a private teacher, I could learn at my own pace. I could do one tune a month if I wanted to and there would be no pressure.
Maybe I just don't have the musical ability. Am I deluding myself?
Set your aims high..ish, never believe it when someone disses you, always have the positive mental attitude that you can achieve what you set out to.
Getting personal tuition is definitely a good plan, especially if you have access to a good teacher. Going at a pace that suits you, learning tunes that you like will definitely be helpful and you will get much more constructive criticism regarding your technique. Furthermore you'll avoid the frustration that has probably bred the negative vibes and prevented you progressing.
If I'm ever passing through an area likely to have good teachers, I will always try and get some lessons, even when you get quite good, the amount you can learn is massive....
Also don't worry about anyone else's rate of progress. AND, you've landed on the right website for encouragement (despite occasional disagreements among members - to be expected.) Speaking of which (encouragement), all I can say is, if you can hear a tune in your head, you should be able to play it, because you've got the music in you. Maybe get a tin whistle to knock out some tunes on, you might find that'll help. The main thing is, learn it your way, that's my outlook.
Hi John, and welcome to The Session. Well, *I* don't think you're deluding yourself, but I'm not right there to see and hear and work with you. Still, I tend to think that your former teacher was both right and wrong -- either that or it was someone who isn't used to working with beginning adults. If you've never learned by ear before AND if you're trying to learn an instrument at the same time, it's a lot to learn all at once and expect you to play quickly. Yes, you have to play faster in order to expect to go anywhere, but *when* you should be expected to play faster is another egg altogether. A lot of that will be dependant upon how fast your own ability will allow you, and any good teacher will know that.
Try this, John -- go to a teacher, for sure, and do what they tell you. But on your own, do this besides, take a tune that you already know or that you want to learn, and learn it so you can sing it without picking up your mando or banjo or whatever it is that you're actually playing. When you've got the tune so you can sing it without any recordings on or any other help, THEN pick up your instrument and try getting the tune out of it.
Start by practising the tune steady but very VERY slow -- as slow as you need to go in order to get the tune out steadily, no matter how slow that is. Only speed up when you can get through the tune at least 3 times through without any mistakes at that speed. Be patient with yourself. Then only speed up a couple of notches, and don't speed up til you can play it really well with proper feel and lift at that speed. Then only take it up a couple of notches and do it all over again.
If you do this with something like 5-10 tunes, you'll soon know whether you're deluding yourself.
A good private teacher isn't going to take you at your own pace, they'll take you at their idea of how fast you can go. I can tell you, as a teacher, that often the student can progress faster than they think they can and it's often the job of the teacher to push them past where they have deluded themselves that they need to stay as well as the other way round.
Anyway, the important thing is that you be having fun. As long as you're having fun, the hell with the begrudgers.
Keep it going John, it takes a bit longer to learn as an adult, especially from scratch but it is worth it in the end. Just keep at it and it will get easier. As above, pick 5-10 tunes and concentrate on them and make the time to play every day, even if it is only 15 minutes.
John na n-amhran,
Good advice above from many quarters. I'll add to it. If you really want to do it you can. Whether you ever gain mastery depends on your talent and application. If you don't, you can still enjoy your music. After a few failed attempts, I'm starting on the fiddle at 63. I had convinced myself that I couldn't learn. Now, I believe I can. I don't believe I'll ever be good enough to play in a session, but so what. I enjoy it, and I'm sorry I didn't start earlier, say at 40.
If you can find a good ITM teacher, that's your best bet (indiv lessons with emphasis on the ear). If not, there is great help today on the internet. Go n-eirigh an bothar leat. (Ca bhfuil conai ort i mBlea Cliath?)
mairtin
Mairtin, I'm sure you'll be good enough to play in a session, if you believe you can learn. What is playing in a session anyway? If you can hear the tunes in your head as they're being played in the session then in a sense you *are* "playing" them, even if you're resting your fiddle in your lap at the time. It's just that with the older player the learning by ear process may be a little slower, and it takes a little longer to develop the physiological neural processes, but it will indeed come, and I reckon in the next two or three years you'll be an active participant in sessions. The important thing is to go to as many sessions as possible; at this stage is doesn't matter how little or much you actually play the fiddle when you're there.
Trevor
John,
If that's not enough encouragement, here's my two cents worth (I'm knocking 40 myself)...
I picked up the 'box' (BC button accordion) just under a year ago and promptly discovered there's almost no instruction avaiable - I managed to find one book which skims over the basics far too quickly for my liking. I've slowly but surely picked up tune after tune using the following formula-
1) As I work out a tune (either from music or 'by ear', note by note) I write down the location on the keyboard & which finger is best. It takes a bit of time, but next time you come to practise it's all there.
2)I practice every day if possible - once a week doesn't work for me. It may only be 10 minutes, but it's like exercise (only lots more fun) - a little often is much easier than a lot occasionally.
3)I managed to find someone else in the same boat - a real lifesaver since it really encourages you to practice knowing the next time you meet they might make you look silly...
4)I go to as many sessions as I can - and I play!. Haven't found one yet where people weren't glad to see a beginner and offer help and advise. Yes, you do get some ignorant types who resent beginners, but to me that's so far outside the very spirit of the music their opinions don't matter to me. Plus I've met some of my heroes and had the chance to lead them in a tune...bliss!
5)I've asked other musicians for help - never been refused yet. Spent three hours in the company of a fantastic box player two weeks ago who was more than happy to give up her evening to help me learn new ornamentation, different fingering, new tunes...
As people have already said, whatever you do, don't give up! Remember there's lots of us out there struggling in our first steps. I'm sure there are plenty who read this site.
Heed all this good advice, John. As Martin Hayes says, the gift of music is the gift of *loving* it. Being able to play will come from that.
First - congratulate yourself on being able to pick up tunes by ear _at all_. That's a great head start you have there.
I've taught music and spent a fair amount of time myself as a student. In the beginning (and sometimes even at later stages), it might be unrealistic to expect to learn a tune a week--for anyone. Instead, you should be encouraged to spend time playing your instrument--every day if that's at all possible--and work on JUST A HANDFUL of tunes until playing startes to feel comfortable and not require every iota of your concentration just to get the technical skills working.
That takes time. Months. Maybe a year or two. Maybe more.
I'll give you an example. After 20 plus years on fiddle, and many more years on guitar and bluegrass banjo. I decided to learn tenor banjo (tuned GDAE). On fiddle, I know hundreds and hundreds of tunes, and the fingering is basically the same on my short-scale banjo. I *could* sit down and pick through dozens of tunes at near session speed right off the bat, just relying on my fiddle repertoire and flatpicking technique on guitar.
But I want to learn to play Irish *banjo,* so I've slowed way down, considered all the details (choice of pick, how to hold the pick, hand position over the strings, lefthand options, sitting posture, what type of tone do I like, etc.), and decided to focus on just a few tunes. I'm gradually getting my triplets to fire, and getting used to the DUD DUD pattern for picking jigs, and working out the other intricacies of playing these few tunes. I play a few jigs and a few reels, first without any attemtps at triplets, then with. It's more than enough to keep me busy and entertained with the instrument, and I'll know I'll be ready to move on when I can play these tunes to my own satisfaction.
I'm 45. Yep, I can already play other instruments, and that gives me a leg up. But I'll be happy if in three years I can pluck away on this banjo in a session and add to the music rather than detract from it. My guess is that it will be sooner than that, but it's okay if it takes that long, or longer.
So...what tunes are you working on? Are you playing mandolin or banjo or both? If banjo, do you tune it GDAE or CGDA?
John ...remember what it was like when you were learning to drive ??? all those fuppin pedals, levers, switches, mirrors, knobs etc !!!!
focus on a handful of tunes and get that 'muscle memory' into yer fingers ..as Zina said slow at first ..and above all ( as Trevor said) you need the tunes in yer head.
And no, you are not a failed player, cos you haven't given up (or you wouldn't have posted here
Think big, start small. I took up the concertina 18 months ago at the age of 38. Whilst I would love to be able to play fast jigs and reels straight away, I started slowly on simple waltzs and airs cos they were easier to play. It's amazing what getting a few tunes under your belt will do, even if it's just a simple nursery Rhyme or "Happy Birthday" (that one will eventually come in handy sometime Then you can begin to work towards more challenging tunes.
If you can find a good teacher, go for it. For me, the definition of a good teacher is one who is patient, and listens to what you need.
I remember back in my early harping days going to a concert of the famous Welsh Triple Harp player Robin Huw Bowen, who I had never seen, but only heard from recordings. Whist waiting for Robin to come onto the small stage, a group of us where standing around in awe admiring his harp. I started chatting to a quiet, friendly man who asked me if I played harp. I replied yes but I had never tried anything as challanging or complex as the welsh triple harp. The man smiled and replied, "Well we all have to start somewhere".
Yes, you guessed it. The man was Robin Huw Bowen, who then climbed onto the stage, picked up his harp and the concert began!
Good luck with it all, and don't loose heart. Be patient with your learning and music will come
Don't give up just yet, you should check back with the Comhaltas Monkstown, Friday night banjo classes should be starting back up soon. The plan is to have classes for different levels on the Friday night. What they intend doing is having the teacher on one-one or one-two for 15-20 mins and a group level class for another 15 mins after that. (The time spent one-one/two really depends on how many people attend). The branch are enrolling at the moment and open for suggestions on what way you would like the class to work for you.
Have you ever tried the Tuesday night sessions in the Comhaltas Monkstown led by Brian Prior. It
Thank you all so much for taking so much time and effort to reply in detail. It's very heartening. I've been given new confidence. I'll definitely have another go. Anyone know of good teachers in Dublin, by the way?
PS I've also started driving lately so I understand what you mean!
You will only fail if you give up. I came back to the fiddle after 25-30yrs (took lessons as a kid). I play very slowly. I probably take about a month to learn a tune. I haven't done any session playing yet. But I can drive manual & automatic!
Am I a failure? I'd apply a cast iron skillet to anyone's head if they told me I wouldn't make it! I'm enjoying it and I love the music. That's the first requirement I'd say!
Hi John, From skimming this, it looks like a lot of good advice. But I also want to say a few things since I started playing Irish music without any real music background and really struggled in the beginning. (hey it's still hard for me but I love it)
1)Don't ever ever ever compare yourself to other people, especially in group situations!!!! My big struggle was learning tunes in a group situation. I always felt like one of the slowest people. But the more you put yourself through it, the easier it gets. Everyone learns differently at their own pace. I started to realize that just because someone with a fancy classical background could pick up a tune on the fly didn't mean they were good players of Irish Music.....I would hear someone pick up a tune really fast, but when they were just playing tunes, I couldn't believe that I actually sounded just as good if not better (I hope I'm not sounding smug)....so John - DO NOT worry if you can't pick up tunes fast....go at your own pace. Find a private teacher. Buy software to slow tunes down......where there's a will there's a way. It sounds like you have the desire so just go for it : )
2) I've been extremely fortunate to have a musical guru from Ireland take me under his wing. He told me last week that sometimes people who are less gifted are the ones that really excel in life because they work so damn hard. He knows really gifted musicians and athletes that are currently doing nothing because they never really had make an effort or work very hard. Of course this doesn't apply to everyone, but some great musicians and athletes got to where they are because they were extremely focussed, dedicated and passionate, not necessarily because they were gifted.........So John if you really want to play the music you will! Good luck....don't give it up if you really love it.....
John, I can't beleive I overlooked this discussion--encouragement is my forte, because I've been there before!
I will add to everyone else's comments by saying, if you want to do it you can learn. It may be hard at first, and there may be some frustration and tears (there was with me!) but you work through it and it does get easier. I promise. I started at age 32 or 33 on harp and then at 37 on fiddle. Just enjoy the process and eventually you will get there.
Before you get into having someone teach you tunes, take the time to learn your *instrument*.
Learn scales, chords, finger position, strumming ... all of the building blocks for playing ... and be good at them before you start picking up tunes. Without being able to immediately identify where any note is, learning tunes is going to be hard and frustrating.
If you focus on the tunes right off the bat, you'll be trying to "pick up" technique during the already (sometimes) difficult task of memorizing all of the bits that make up a tune.
It shouldn't take too long to 'learn the instrument' (mind you, I'm saying 'learn,' not 'master', that takes years if it ever happens -- and it doesn't have to to have fun and play competently). Then, you'll have a much easier time learning tunes.
I simply don't believe that someone CAN'T learn to play any instrument at any age! Don't give up!
John,
Everyone has their own method and pace. Of course you have "the average" pace and then people who learn much faster or much slower than that. At least that has been my experience in teachin both language and bodhran. The teacher's job is to push you to your limits but also to motivate and encourage to help you look at where you've been as well as where you're headed. I've never met an "unteachable" in 24 years of teaching (or better, facilitating learning). Don't give up.
Try Walton's shop at the top of O' Connell St/ North Frederick St. for info. on tutors.
John, I, too, want to second what everyone else said. I'm in the same boat. I started learning to play mandolin at age 48 (now 50). It's been slow, but It's been fun. I now have private lessons every two weeks, which has been helpful. If for no other reason, it's good to learn good playing habits early (holding the instrument, picking, etc.). I've found the older I get, the harder it is to unlearn bad habits. Learning by ear is a struggle for me, but it is exhilirating the first few times you, just by accident, play a familiar phrase, and then, after some effort, figure out the entire tune.
Being a beginning mandolin player has its benefits in sessions (as opposed to some other instruments). You don't have the burden of knowing that playing a sour note with disrup the entire flow of things. It's hard enough to hear yourself play, much less everyone else hear. Things eventually start to fall into place. So, keep having fun. Hope to pick some tunes with you someday.
Most advice has already been given but I'll reiterate that about not worrying too much about being able to play fast straight away. As long as you can play the tune(s) as perfectly as possible at a slow pace, speed will come. If you can also spend a little time practising techniques, scales etc too, this will stand you in good stead for later. You could probably learn quite a lot yourself without a teacher meantime and go back when you feel more confident.
I only started playing the mandolin seriously in my late thirties as well, although I could play chords etc and also the guitar (after a fashion) before that. It's amazing how much I've picked up over the years, although I still don't regard myself as being particularly good. At least, I can play a lot faster but all the better musicians would agree that speed isn't everything. In fact, unless you want to choose the company of players who like to belt on at 100 miles per hour, it's not even that important.
Oh, and I've been to workshops/classes over the years where others appeared to pick up the tunes quicker than me too, especially if they could sight read. They don't necessarily retain them, though. I quite often found that I might be still be playing the tunes weeks, months, years later long after they had forgetten them. So, keep on going. It's worth it.
John, I'm probably at the same stage as yourself in banjo playing, though I've been fooling with a mandolin for a few years. I'm also about the same age as yourself. Fantastic advice on the thread above, from which I draw a lot of encouragement too. Being a long way from Monkstown now, The Session is a great source of advice and support.
One thing to think about - and which I've struggled with a bit myself - is The Goal. Why try to learn in the first place? As long as The Goal is to be good enough or fast enough to be accepted at a session as quickly as possible, I think you put a lot of pressure on yourself that gets in the way of learning and enjoying the music. It sounds like your teacher is making the same mistake as well...
I've been attending slower-paced learning groups here, and they provide the bit of social interaction I need to keep my interest up, but I'm by no means ready to contribute to a fast session. On the other hand, I'm getting a lot of satisfaction from the process of learning to play. I hope some day this will translate into the fun of session participation but, if it doesn't, it will still have been very much worthwhile.
Someone should tell you that the mandolin and tenor banjo require different techniques with the right hand pick. It's probably a little easier to go to mandolin than the other way around.
Grego you play both, care to comment?
I was 52 before I started seriously into ITM, with about twelve years messing around in oldtime. I'll be 70 this summer and I'm looking forward to every minute of it. Thanks to this great forum.
Unfortunately I'm teaching myself to pick the banjo without the benefit of someone to show me if I'm doing it right or wrong. Other banjo players around these parts tend to be 5-string fingerpickers.
I'm actually finding the right hand easier on the banjo than on the mandolin - the bigger string gap seems to help me with picking accuracy, plus I find it easier to get the attack right on a single string than on a string pair. I tend to angle the pick so the right edge strikes the string - something suggested by other threads on The Session, and which gives a crisper tone. I don't know if it helps speed any, though.
The left hand has been the bigger challenge because you can't avoid shifting the whole hand back and forth when you need to alternate between 2nd and 7th frets. I've found tuning down a full tone and capoing the second fret helps enormously - converting my 19 fret- into a 17 fret-banjo, but this isn't for everyone: see:
Give up as often and as sincerely as you like - just make sure you change your mind in the morning.
One-on-one tuition is a good idea. People learn at different rates -paticularly at the beginning. As you already have the music in you, all you need is the basic technique. Once you have that, it is just a case of putting it into practice as much as possible. Try to play whatever tune is in your head.
John - Good on you for going after something you want. Keep working at it and hang with the people who encourage you. They will make the most difference in your playing, and your life. All the best,
Steve
John, some great advice on this thread the most important probably being "don't give up". My own experience has been the 2% inspiration / 98% perspiration ratio (ie try and practice a little every day if only for 15 minutes). You'll be amazed at the difference in your playing after 6 months or so. As for session playing, this is a great way to make progress as it also involves the social dimension and being able to compare notes with others. However, as has already been said, the "Slow Session" such as the Monkstown one on Tuesday nights, is probably the best bet for someone starting out. I'm sure if you e-mail Comhaltas on enquiries@comhaltas.com, they'll give you the playlist for the Tuesday session and possibly the tune ABCs for you to listen to if you have one of the ABC programs such as ABCPlay. Good luck with your playing.
Re mandolin versus banjo playing. I agree that the left hand requires a slightly different approach. Normally, I've been using a finger to each fret (as with guitar) but sometimes "slip back" into mandolin style playing. Both of these work but I sometimes get mixed up between the two. Probably, I'll eventually invest in a shorter scale banjo to solve this problem.
As regards the right hand technique, I found that I really had to make a better effort with my triplets on tenor banjo. It just doesn't sound very effective, otherwise. I have found that my mandolin playing has also improved, as a result. So, yes, it's probably an easier move from tenor banjo to mandolin but most of us start the other way around.
Just to reiterate bannermans message - go to the links page here and go the ABC web site. Download the ABC Player [only about 750kb] and you can then get into the thousands of tunes here.
The player can be slowed down to any speed you want without affecting the tuning and almost all common tunes that you might want to learn are there.
Whatever you do don't give up. A friend of mine (now deceased - God rest you Jim) took up the banjo late in life following a stroke which made some of his fingers a bit stiff. He worked, and worked and worked, loved the music but was very shy about his playing and very nervous. However in the last year of his life he actually played in public in Milltown Malbay and with some very good players. He also was a good banjo player but he had no confidence in himself. So John, keep on plucking and to hell with the begrudgers!
d
Go one to one John. Try to get together with other beginners in your area and meet say once a week to practice on easy tunes that you like. Practice one hour a day and you'll be amazed at the progress you'll make. Beware of the so-called slow session at Monkstown. It is way too fast for a beginner in my view and the biggest mistake one can make is playing too fast for one's ability. The teacher in Kilcock is always saying SLOW DOWN. Lucky you if you can play by ear. So . . . get out there and enjoy yourself!
John,
I strarted at 42 on flute and 44 on fiddle (am now 53) and have had so many set backs. I actually started on piano at in my teens and then tried it again at 32 and was so disillusioned with myself that I couldn't do it!! I'm so glad my husband bought me the flute, it's changed my life completely with this passion for the music. I found I could play tunes and have discovered I can write more recently too.
I don't care if I'm never going to be able to play like all those virtuoso players, I play for the love of it.
Oh and get a sympathetric tutor who'll let you choose your own pace. My fiddle (violin) tutor trained at the Royal College of Music and was therefore classical. But she always said she learnt so much from what it was I wanted to do which gave her a broader understanding. She was and still is a great teacher because of her open mindedness...there must be others out there.
Failed player
Failed player
Hello everybody,
I'm new to The Session, but find it a marvellous resource.
About four years ago at the age of 40, I took up the mandolin because I loved the sound and I wanted to play traditional music. I hadn't played an instrument before and had no knowledge of music, though I can easily recognise particular tunes and hum along with them no problem.
I went along to classes (banjo) with Comhaltas in Dublin for three seasons but finally left in frustration. We learned a new tune each week, sometimes two. I found this too much, as I couldn't manage one whole tune in a week. Most of the others would just pick it up easily and then move on, leaving me very embarassed as I could only play a little bit of each tune. The teacher also told me that I could never really play properly unless I was able to play faster. There was a variety of people in the classes: some accomplished musicians, some beginners like myself. Anyway, I left in frustration and haven't picked up the instrument in two years.
I want to give it one more try before abandoning the dream of playing music forever. My question is this: would it be any better if I got a private teacher? My reasoning is that if I had a private teacher, I could learn at my own pace. I could do one tune a month if I wanted to and there would be no pressure.
Maybe I just don't have the musical ability. Am I deluding myself?
John
# Posted on February 4th 2004 by amhrán
Re: Failed player
Set your aims high..ish, never believe it when someone disses you, always have the positive mental attitude that you can achieve what you set out to.
Getting personal tuition is definitely a good plan, especially if you have access to a good teacher. Going at a pace that suits you, learning tunes that you like will definitely be helpful and you will get much more constructive criticism regarding your technique. Furthermore you'll avoid the frustration that has probably bred the negative vibes and prevented you progressing.
If I'm ever passing through an area likely to have good teachers, I will always try and get some lessons, even when you get quite good, the amount you can learn is massive....
# Posted on February 4th 2004 by Jamie
Re: Failed player
John - don't, Don't, DON'T give up yet!
Also don't worry about anyone else's rate of progress. AND, you've landed on the right website for encouragement (despite occasional disagreements among members - to be expected.) Speaking of which (encouragement), all I can say is, if you can hear a tune in your head, you should be able to play it, because you've got the music in you. Maybe get a tin whistle to knock out some tunes on, you might find that'll help. The main thing is, learn it your way, that's my outlook.
# Posted on February 4th 2004 by Rudall the time
Re: Failed player
Hi John, and welcome to The Session. Well, *I* don't think you're deluding yourself, but I'm not right there to see and hear and work with you. Still, I tend to think that your former teacher was both right and wrong -- either that or it was someone who isn't used to working with beginning adults. If you've never learned by ear before AND if you're trying to learn an instrument at the same time, it's a lot to learn all at once and expect you to play quickly. Yes, you have to play faster in order to expect to go anywhere, but *when* you should be expected to play faster is another egg altogether. A lot of that will be dependant upon how fast your own ability will allow you, and any good teacher will know that.
Try this, John -- go to a teacher, for sure, and do what they tell you. But on your own, do this besides, take a tune that you already know or that you want to learn, and learn it so you can sing it without picking up your mando or banjo or whatever it is that you're actually playing. When you've got the tune so you can sing it without any recordings on or any other help, THEN pick up your instrument and try getting the tune out of it.
Start by practising the tune steady but very VERY slow -- as slow as you need to go in order to get the tune out steadily, no matter how slow that is. Only speed up when you can get through the tune at least 3 times through without any mistakes at that speed. Be patient with yourself. Then only speed up a couple of notches, and don't speed up til you can play it really well with proper feel and lift at that speed. Then only take it up a couple of notches and do it all over again.
If you do this with something like 5-10 tunes, you'll soon know whether you're deluding yourself.
A good private teacher isn't going to take you at your own pace, they'll take you at their idea of how fast you can go. I can tell you, as a teacher, that often the student can progress faster than they think they can and it's often the job of the teacher to push them past where they have deluded themselves that they need to stay as well as the other way round.
Anyway, the important thing is that you be having fun. As long as you're having fun, the hell with the begrudgers.
Zina
# Posted on February 4th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: Failed player
John, please, don't give up! and welcome to The Session.
# Posted on February 4th 2004 by gian marco
Re: Failed player
Keep it going John, it takes a bit longer to learn as an adult, especially from scratch but it is worth it in the end. Just keep at it and it will get easier. As above, pick 5-10 tunes and concentrate on them and make the time to play every day, even if it is only 15 minutes.
Derek
# Posted on February 4th 2004 by Herschel Mad
Re: Failed player
John na n-amhran,
Good advice above from many quarters. I'll add to it. If you really want to do it you can. Whether you ever gain mastery depends on your talent and application. If you don't, you can still enjoy your music. After a few failed attempts, I'm starting on the fiddle at 63. I had convinced myself that I couldn't learn. Now, I believe I can. I don't believe I'll ever be good enough to play in a session, but so what. I enjoy it, and I'm sorry I didn't start earlier, say at 40.
If you can find a good ITM teacher, that's your best bet (indiv lessons with emphasis on the ear). If not, there is great help today on the internet. Go n-eirigh an bothar leat. (Ca bhfuil conai ort i mBlea Cliath?)
mairtin
# Posted on February 4th 2004 by frozenstiff
Re: Failed player
Mairtin, I'm sure you'll be good enough to play in a session, if you believe you can learn. What is playing in a session anyway? If you can hear the tunes in your head as they're being played in the session then in a sense you *are* "playing" them, even if you're resting your fiddle in your lap at the time. It's just that with the older player the learning by ear process may be a little slower, and it takes a little longer to develop the physiological neural processes, but it will indeed come, and I reckon in the next two or three years you'll be an active participant in sessions. The important thing is to go to as many sessions as possible; at this stage is doesn't matter how little or much you actually play the fiddle when you're there.
Trevor
# Posted on February 4th 2004 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Failed player
John,
If that's not enough encouragement, here's my two cents worth (I'm knocking 40 myself)...
I picked up the 'box' (BC button accordion) just under a year ago and promptly discovered there's almost no instruction avaiable - I managed to find one book which skims over the basics far too quickly for my liking. I've slowly but surely picked up tune after tune using the following formula-
1) As I work out a tune (either from music or 'by ear', note by note) I write down the location on the keyboard & which finger is best. It takes a bit of time, but next time you come to practise it's all there.
2)I practice every day if possible - once a week doesn't work for me. It may only be 10 minutes, but it's like exercise (only lots more fun) - a little often is much easier than a lot occasionally.
3)I managed to find someone else in the same boat - a real lifesaver since it really encourages you to practice knowing the next time you meet they might make you look silly...
4)I go to as many sessions as I can - and I play!. Haven't found one yet where people weren't glad to see a beginner and offer help and advise. Yes, you do get some ignorant types who resent beginners, but to me that's so far outside the very spirit of the music their opinions don't matter to me. Plus I've met some of my heroes and had the chance to lead them in a tune...bliss!
5)I've asked other musicians for help - never been refused yet. Spent three hours in the company of a fantastic box player two weeks ago who was more than happy to give up her evening to help me learn new ornamentation, different fingering, new tunes...
As people have already said, whatever you do, don't give up! Remember there's lots of us out there struggling in our first steps. I'm sure there are plenty who read this site.
Good luck,
Ian
# Posted on February 4th 2004 by bc_box_player
Re: Failed player
Heed all this good advice, John. As Martin Hayes says, the gift of music is the gift of *loving* it. Being able to play will come from that.
First - congratulate yourself on being able to pick up tunes by ear _at all_. That's a great head start you have there.
I've taught music and spent a fair amount of time myself as a student. In the beginning (and sometimes even at later stages), it might be unrealistic to expect to learn a tune a week--for anyone. Instead, you should be encouraged to spend time playing your instrument--every day if that's at all possible--and work on JUST A HANDFUL of tunes until playing startes to feel comfortable and not require every iota of your concentration just to get the technical skills working.
That takes time. Months. Maybe a year or two. Maybe more.
I'll give you an example. After 20 plus years on fiddle, and many more years on guitar and bluegrass banjo. I decided to learn tenor banjo (tuned GDAE). On fiddle, I know hundreds and hundreds of tunes, and the fingering is basically the same on my short-scale banjo. I *could* sit down and pick through dozens of tunes at near session speed right off the bat, just relying on my fiddle repertoire and flatpicking technique on guitar.
But I want to learn to play Irish *banjo,* so I've slowed way down, considered all the details (choice of pick, how to hold the pick, hand position over the strings, lefthand options, sitting posture, what type of tone do I like, etc.), and decided to focus on just a few tunes. I'm gradually getting my triplets to fire, and getting used to the DUD DUD pattern for picking jigs, and working out the other intricacies of playing these few tunes. I play a few jigs and a few reels, first without any attemtps at triplets, then with. It's more than enough to keep me busy and entertained with the instrument, and I'll know I'll be ready to move on when I can play these tunes to my own satisfaction.
I'm 45. Yep, I can already play other instruments, and that gives me a leg up. But I'll be happy if in three years I can pluck away on this banjo in a session and add to the music rather than detract from it. My guess is that it will be sooner than that, but it's okay if it takes that long, or longer.
So...what tunes are you working on? Are you playing mandolin or banjo or both? If banjo, do you tune it GDAE or CGDA?
# Posted on February 4th 2004 by Will Harmon
Re: Failed player
John ...remember what it was like when you were learning to drive ??? all those fuppin pedals, levers, switches, mirrors, knobs etc !!!!
focus on a handful of tunes and get that 'muscle memory' into yer fingers ..as Zina said slow at first ..and above all ( as Trevor said) you need the tunes in yer head.
all the best
# Posted on February 4th 2004 by DeffGoat
Re: Failed player
Hi John,
Then you can begin to work towards more challenging tunes.
Lots of good advice above
And no, you are not a failed player, cos you haven't given up (or you wouldn't have posted here
Think big, start small. I took up the concertina 18 months ago at the age of 38. Whilst I would love to be able to play fast jigs and reels straight away, I started slowly on simple waltzs and airs cos they were easier to play. It's amazing what getting a few tunes under your belt will do, even if it's just a simple nursery Rhyme or "Happy Birthday" (that one will eventually come in handy sometime
If you can find a good teacher, go for it. For me, the definition of a good teacher is one who is patient, and listens to what you need.
I remember back in my early harping days going to a concert of the famous Welsh Triple Harp player Robin Huw Bowen, who I had never seen, but only heard from recordings. Whist waiting for Robin to come onto the small stage, a group of us where standing around in awe admiring his harp. I started chatting to a quiet, friendly man who asked me if I played harp. I replied yes but I had never tried anything as challanging or complex as the welsh triple harp. The man smiled and replied, "Well we all have to start somewhere".
Yes, you guessed it. The man was Robin Huw Bowen, who then climbed onto the stage, picked up his harp and the concert began!
Good luck with it all, and don't loose heart. Be patient with your learning and music will come
# Posted on February 4th 2004 by Ptollemy
Re: Failed player
PS The driving analogy is a very good one!
# Posted on February 4th 2004 by Ptollemy
Re: Failed player
John,
Don't give up just yet, you should check back with the Comhaltas Monkstown, Friday night banjo classes should be starting back up soon. The plan is to have classes for different levels on the Friday night. What they intend doing is having the teacher on one-one or one-two for 15-20 mins and a group level class for another 15 mins after that. (The time spent one-one/two really depends on how many people attend). The branch are enrolling at the moment and open for suggestions on what way you would like the class to work for you.
Have you ever tried the Tuesday night sessions in the Comhaltas Monkstown led by Brian Prior. It
# Posted on February 4th 2004 by Jackeen
Re: Failed player
How amazing! I'm very impressed with The Session.
Thank you all so much for taking so much time and effort to reply in detail. It's very heartening. I've been given new confidence. I'll definitely have another go. Anyone know of good teachers in Dublin, by the way?
PS I've also started driving lately so I understand what you mean!
PPS Martin, t
# Posted on February 4th 2004 by amhrán
Re: Failed player
Hello John & Welcome!
You will only fail if you give up. I came back to the fiddle after 25-30yrs (took lessons as a kid). I play very slowly. I probably take about a month to learn a tune. I haven't done any session playing yet. But I can drive manual & automatic!
Am I a failure? I'd apply a cast iron skillet to anyone's head if they told me I wouldn't make it! I'm enjoying it and I love the music. That's the first requirement I'd say!
Best Wishes to you! Deb.
# Posted on February 4th 2004 by Agnes Nutter
Re: Failed player
Hi John, From skimming this, it looks like a lot of good advice. But I also want to say a few things since I started playing Irish music without any real music background and really struggled in the beginning. (hey it's still hard for me but I love it)
1)Don't ever ever ever compare yourself to other people, especially in group situations!!!! My big struggle was learning tunes in a group situation. I always felt like one of the slowest people. But the more you put yourself through it, the easier it gets. Everyone learns differently at their own pace. I started to realize that just because someone with a fancy classical background could pick up a tune on the fly didn't mean they were good players of Irish Music.....I would hear someone pick up a tune really fast, but when they were just playing tunes, I couldn't believe that I actually sounded just as good if not better (I hope I'm not sounding smug)....so John - DO NOT worry if you can't pick up tunes fast....go at your own pace. Find a private teacher. Buy software to slow tunes down......where there's a will there's a way. It sounds like you have the desire so just go for it : )
2) I've been extremely fortunate to have a musical guru from Ireland take me under his wing. He told me last week that sometimes people who are less gifted are the ones that really excel in life because they work so damn hard. He knows really gifted musicians and athletes that are currently doing nothing because they never really had make an effort or work very hard. Of course this doesn't apply to everyone, but some great musicians and athletes got to where they are because they were extremely focussed, dedicated and passionate, not necessarily because they were gifted.........So John if you really want to play the music you will! Good luck....don't give it up if you really love it.....
Joyce
# Posted on February 5th 2004 by JMH
Re: Failed player
John, I can't beleive I overlooked this discussion--encouragement is my forte, because I've been there before!
I will add to everyone else's comments by saying, if you want to do it you can learn. It may be hard at first, and there may be some frustration and tears (there was with me!) but you work through it and it does get easier. I promise. I started at age 32 or 33 on harp and then at 37 on fiddle. Just enjoy the process and eventually you will get there.
# Posted on February 5th 2004 by Andee
Re: Failed player
I was almost 31 when I started : )
# Posted on February 5th 2004 by JMH
Re: Failed player
Before you get into having someone teach you tunes, take the time to learn your *instrument*.
Learn scales, chords, finger position, strumming ... all of the building blocks for playing ... and be good at them before you start picking up tunes. Without being able to immediately identify where any note is, learning tunes is going to be hard and frustrating.
If you focus on the tunes right off the bat, you'll be trying to "pick up" technique during the already (sometimes) difficult task of memorizing all of the bits that make up a tune.
It shouldn't take too long to 'learn the instrument' (mind you, I'm saying 'learn,' not 'master', that takes years if it ever happens -- and it doesn't have to to have fun and play competently). Then, you'll have a much easier time learning tunes.
I simply don't believe that someone CAN'T learn to play any instrument at any age! Don't give up!
# Posted on February 5th 2004 by KeepFiddlin'
Re: Failed player
John,
Everyone has their own method and pace. Of course you have "the average" pace and then people who learn much faster or much slower than that. At least that has been my experience in teachin both language and bodhran. The teacher's job is to push you to your limits but also to motivate and encourage to help you look at where you've been as well as where you're headed. I've never met an "unteachable" in 24 years of teaching (or better, facilitating learning). Don't give up.
Try Walton's shop at the top of O' Connell St/ North Frederick St. for info. on tutors.
# Posted on February 5th 2004 by Joe Quinn
Re: Failed player
John, I, too, want to second what everyone else said. I'm in the same boat. I started learning to play mandolin at age 48 (now 50). It's been slow, but It's been fun. I now have private lessons every two weeks, which has been helpful. If for no other reason, it's good to learn good playing habits early (holding the instrument, picking, etc.). I've found the older I get, the harder it is to unlearn bad habits. Learning by ear is a struggle for me, but it is exhilirating the first few times you, just by accident, play a familiar phrase, and then, after some effort, figure out the entire tune.
Being a beginning mandolin player has its benefits in sessions (as opposed to some other instruments). You don't have the burden of knowing that playing a sour note with disrup the entire flow of things. It's hard enough to hear yourself play, much less everyone else hear. Things eventually start to fall into place. So, keep having fun. Hope to pick some tunes with you someday.
Thanks,
Jim
# Posted on February 5th 2004 by Jiml
Re: Failed player
Most advice has already been given but I'll reiterate that about not worrying too much about being able to play fast straight away. As long as you can play the tune(s) as perfectly as possible at a slow pace, speed will come. If you can also spend a little time practising techniques, scales etc too, this will stand you in good stead for later. You could probably learn quite a lot yourself without a teacher meantime and go back when you feel more confident.
I only started playing the mandolin seriously in my late thirties as well, although I could play chords etc and also the guitar (after a fashion) before that. It's amazing how much I've picked up over the years, although I still don't regard myself as being particularly good. At least, I can play a lot faster but all the better musicians would agree that speed isn't everything. In fact, unless you want to choose the company of players who like to belt on at 100 miles per hour, it's not even that important.
John
# Posted on February 5th 2004 by Johnny Jay
Re: Failed player
Oh, and I've been to workshops/classes over the years where others appeared to pick up the tunes quicker than me too, especially if they could sight read. They don't necessarily retain them, though. I quite often found that I might be still be playing the tunes weeks, months, years later long after they had forgetten them. So, keep on going. It's worth it.
# Posted on February 5th 2004 by Johnny Jay
Re: Failed player
John, I'm probably at the same stage as yourself in banjo playing, though I've been fooling with a mandolin for a few years. I'm also about the same age as yourself. Fantastic advice on the thread above, from which I draw a lot of encouragement too. Being a long way from Monkstown now, The Session is a great source of advice and support.
One thing to think about - and which I've struggled with a bit myself - is The Goal. Why try to learn in the first place? As long as The Goal is to be good enough or fast enough to be accepted at a session as quickly as possible, I think you put a lot of pressure on yourself that gets in the way of learning and enjoying the music. It sounds like your teacher is making the same mistake as well...
I've been attending slower-paced learning groups here, and they provide the bit of social interaction I need to keep my interest up, but I'm by no means ready to contribute to a fast session. On the other hand, I'm getting a lot of satisfaction from the process of learning to play. I hope some day this will translate into the fun of session participation but, if it doesn't, it will still have been very much worthwhile.
BTW, isn't it something like "Teach Lorc
# Posted on February 5th 2004 by grego
Re: Failed player
Stigh Lorcain, methinks
# Posted on February 5th 2004 by Joe Quinn
Re: Failed player
Someone should tell you that the mandolin and tenor banjo require different techniques with the right hand pick. It's probably a little easier to go to mandolin than the other way around.
Grego you play both, care to comment?
# Posted on February 5th 2004 by wvwhistler
Re: Failed player
I was 52 before I started seriously into ITM, with about twelve years messing around in oldtime. I'll be 70 this summer and I'm looking forward to every minute of it. Thanks to this great forum.
# Posted on February 5th 2004 by wvwhistler
Banjo vs Mandolin
Unfortunately I'm teaching myself to pick the banjo without the benefit of someone to show me if I'm doing it right or wrong. Other banjo players around these parts tend to be 5-string fingerpickers.
I'm actually finding the right hand easier on the banjo than on the mandolin - the bigger string gap seems to help me with picking accuracy, plus I find it easier to get the attack right on a single string than on a string pair. I tend to angle the pick so the right edge strikes the string - something suggested by other threads on The Session, and which gives a crisper tone. I don't know if it helps speed any, though.
The left hand has been the bigger challenge because you can't avoid shifting the whole hand back and forth when you need to alternate between 2nd and 7th frets. I've found tuning down a full tone and capoing the second fret helps enormously - converting my 19 fret- into a 17 fret-banjo, but this isn't for everyone: see:
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display.php/2845
# Posted on February 5th 2004 by grego
Re: Failed player
Give up as often and as sincerely as you like - just make sure you change your mind in the morning.
One-on-one tuition is a good idea. People learn at different rates -paticularly at the beginning. As you already have the music in you, all you need is the basic technique. Once you have that, it is just a case of putting it into practice as much as possible. Try to play whatever tune is in your head.
And never use the F-word again.
# Posted on February 5th 2004 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Failed player
John, who needs teachers? I've been playing the flute for years, and you'd swear I only picked it up last week if you heard me.
# Posted on February 5th 2004 by Ottery
Re: Failed player
Ottery, you need to go to the gym.
# Posted on February 5th 2004 by BowHand
Re: Failed player
John - Good on you for going after something you want. Keep working at it and hang with the people who encourage you. They will make the most difference in your playing, and your life. All the best,
Steve
# Posted on February 5th 2004 by Stevie C
Re: Failed player
John, some great advice on this thread the most important probably being "don't give up". My own experience has been the 2% inspiration / 98% perspiration ratio (ie try and practice a little every day if only for 15 minutes). You'll be amazed at the difference in your playing after 6 months or so. As for session playing, this is a great way to make progress as it also involves the social dimension and being able to compare notes with others. However, as has already been said, the "Slow Session" such as the Monkstown one on Tuesday nights, is probably the best bet for someone starting out. I'm sure if you e-mail Comhaltas on enquiries@comhaltas.com, they'll give you the playlist for the Tuesday session and possibly the tune ABCs for you to listen to if you have one of the ABC programs such as ABCPlay. Good luck with your playing.
# Posted on February 5th 2004 by Bannerman
Re: Failed player
Whistle Bare and Greco,
Re mandolin versus banjo playing. I agree that the left hand requires a slightly different approach. Normally, I've been using a finger to each fret (as with guitar) but sometimes "slip back" into mandolin style playing. Both of these work but I sometimes get mixed up between the two. Probably, I'll eventually invest in a shorter scale banjo to solve this problem.
As regards the right hand technique, I found that I really had to make a better effort with my triplets on tenor banjo. It just doesn't sound very effective, otherwise. I have found that my mandolin playing has also improved, as a result. So, yes, it's probably an easier move from tenor banjo to mandolin but most of us start the other way around.
John
# Posted on February 5th 2004 by Johnny Jay
Re: Failed player
Where's me e-mail, Phil?
# Posted on February 5th 2004 by Joe Quinn
Re: Failed player
Just to reiterate bannermans message - go to the links page here and go the ABC web site. Download the ABC Player [only about 750kb] and you can then get into the thousands of tunes here.
The player can be slowed down to any speed you want without affecting the tuning and almost all common tunes that you might want to learn are there.
Don't give up!!
# Posted on February 6th 2004 by breandan
Re: Failed player
Whatever you do don't give up. A friend of mine (now deceased - God rest you Jim) took up the banjo late in life following a stroke which made some of his fingers a bit stiff. He worked, and worked and worked, loved the music but was very shy about his playing and very nervous. However in the last year of his life he actually played in public in Milltown Malbay and with some very good players. He also was a good banjo player but he had no confidence in himself. So John, keep on plucking and to hell with the begrudgers!
d
# Posted on February 6th 2004 by MollyB
Re: Failed player
To hell or to Connacht, that is.
# Posted on February 6th 2004 by BowHand
Re: Failed player
Go one to one John. Try to get together with other beginners in your area and meet say once a week to practice on easy tunes that you like. Practice one hour a day and you'll be amazed at the progress you'll make. Beware of the so-called slow session at Monkstown. It is way too fast for a beginner in my view and the biggest mistake one can make is playing too fast for one's ability. The teacher in Kilcock is always saying SLOW DOWN. Lucky you if you can play by ear. So . . . get out there and enjoy yourself!
# Posted on February 6th 2004 by Lilian
Re: Failed player
John,
I strarted at 42 on flute and 44 on fiddle (am now 53) and have had so many set backs. I actually started on piano at in my teens and then tried it again at 32 and was so disillusioned with myself that I couldn't do it!! I'm so glad my husband bought me the flute, it's changed my life completely with this passion for the music. I found I could play tunes and have discovered I can write more recently too.
I don't care if I'm never going to be able to play like all those virtuoso players, I play for the love of it.
Oh and get a sympathetric tutor who'll let you choose your own pace. My fiddle (violin) tutor trained at the Royal College of Music and was therefore classical. But she always said she learnt so much from what it was I wanted to do which gave her a broader understanding. She was and still is a great teacher because of her open mindedness...there must be others out there.
All the best.
# Posted on February 8th 2004 by Fiiddle R