This weekend many people will be thinking about the passage of time since a very difficult day 10 years ago.
I was in Manhattan at the time so I have some particularly
sense-laden memories of the actually signts, sounds, and smells that lasted for months. I lost some good friends.
My long-term reaction was a song. I asked a friend from Ireland to sing it. I took an old melody that has at least 2 sets of lyrics that I'm aware of. I thought that why not update the song, since it has gone through this process before.
I pondered whether to submit it to this audience, but I am interested in the reaction of Irish people and musicians who may be ambivalent about hearing new words to a melody that they associate with other topics.
Please listen if you're interested and don't hesitate to comment either here or on the actual youtube clip page.
I'm not Irish, but I wouldn't have a problem with old tunes being used for new words. I can't see how anyone would. It's how it's been done throughout musical history.
However, I really don't like these words. Firstly, they don't scan or fit the tune. But that's not the worst of it. The problem for me is one of taste. I think the tragedy of 9/11 is that so many ordinary people lost their lives. The best? The bravest? the young? Nonsense. These were ordinary people, like me.
These words leave a sour taste in my mouth.
My thoughts, too, are with the families of the many decent, and some not so decent, ordinary men and women who lost their lives on 11th September 2001.
I agree with Ethical Blend. The image of "brave" people "marching in and up the stairs" (I'm sure that most would have used the elevators, anyway) or "on the side of freedom" gives a very false perspective on the whole tragedy. As though these people innocently going about their business was some act of defiance.
Sure, there was a lot of bravery after the attack. None more so than those passengers who tried to gain control of the plane that came down in Pennsylvania or the emergency services and others who attended the scene of the tragedy - perhaps some of the victims too showed selflessness in helping others during the chaos - but to suggest that there was "marching on the side of freedom" is putting a different, and somewhat tasteless slant on this terrible episode in history.
Dear Timmy,
Thank you for putting your thoughts and feelings to music, I think it is commendable. To me some of the wordings doesn't match up with the music in a natural way. The lyrics don't really resonate with my memories and/or feelings of the tragic day. Perhaps lots of the words are vague and rely on emotional charge. I think you should continue singing the song as an emotional release for yourself. Perhaps in the future you can rework the wording and flow of the lyrics and music.
I somewhat agree with Weejie. I dislike your overuse of the word freedom. People didn't march in for freedom or on the side of freedom. 'Freedom' as a concept or term didn't come into play at all on the day of 9-11 (If my memory serves me correct). It wasn't til weeks after the term starting being used to motivate the nation to rebuild. But I think the ethical blends comments are completely misguided.
In reference to ethical blend: I'm actually quite upset that a person in 2011 can sit behind the safety of their computer screen and basically call people who suffered on 9/11 'ordinary.' I understand what you were TRYING to say (That they were innocent people, just going about their day, etc), but the undertones of your wordings also 'leaves a sour taste in my mouth.' Their final moments on earth were anything but ordinary. Of course many 'average' people would have been petrified. Many would have felt fear and hopelessness. But it seems like you are forgetting there were thousands of people who DID showed unbelievable bravery on the day. Hundreds of official firemen and police officers died, and who knows how many more 'ordinary' people died trying to help others. I believe Timmy was trying to capture these sentiments in the song (although I admit the wording needs work, and perhaps he did not do this quite as effectively as we would have liked). If you disagree with Timmy's arrangement keep your constructive criticism to the musical & lyrical content, not the character of the people on the day. - This is a major aspect that I disliked about ethical blend's comments.
How very odd. I'm proud to be an ordinary person. I found the song offensive, to be honest. And, as I said, precisely because it didn't recognise the "ordinariness" of the people involved. They were people just like people the world over. Like you and me. And they died in an incomprehensible way and for incomprehensible reasons. Incomprehensible to me, at any rate. To me it's disresepectful of their memories not to recognise this.
And I *was* keeping my comments to the musical and lyrical content.
Look how emotionally charged this event is, and will continue to be. I bet both you and me, jcawley, are sitting here now fuming. I'm actually not fuming at you, if that's any help. But I am feeling pretty cut up that you couldn't recognise the insult to the ordinary humanity (yes, ordinary - a noble term, in my book) that Timmy's song represents.
I agree EB - but you're forgetting the 'celebrity mindset' of much of the modern western world. For some, the instinctive reaction is to hype/idolise people into being something they weren't.
In fact, I reckon the 'hero-ising' of ordinary people has gone on for as long as there have been people. And others recoiled from it. Think Wilfred Owen.
Here's another thing. I'm not forgetting the almost incredible bravery of those firemen and, probably, though we'll never know, many, many people in the buildings who may have ended up losing their lives. I read Weejie's comments about them and secretly applauded.
But still, to me, the fact remains: the firemen and others were ordinary people doing extraordinary things. It's one of the most positive things you can take out of this dreadful tragedy. Call those people heroes if you must. And they undoubtedly were, on the day. But I also take huge comfort from the extraordinary acts of heroism that ordinary human beings accomplish in the face of terrible events. I find it uplifting.
Turning to the people trapped in the buildings: if you don't recognise their "ordinariness" you separate them from people like you. They are, somehow, 'apart'. But I can imagine vividly what they went through because, at another time in my life, it's possible that could have been me, in some office somewhere. Me. Not some vague "hero" who isn't an ordinary person like me.
But anyway, jcawley, you don't want me to talk about the people - it's OK for you to talk about them, but not me, apparently. Great sense of shared humanity there, bro.
And now, having thought about it - I *am* angry at what you said. So I shall go away and fume for a while.
I don't think Timmy insulted the 'ordinary humanity.' I think we can agree his lyrics are misguided more than anything. Perhaps so misguided (in your opinion) that it sabotages his intentions to memorialize all involved.
ethical blend, appreciate your sentiments and thank you for the response. I'm relieved to read that you consider 'ordinary' to be a noble characteristic. From your original post this was obvious unclear/misread by me. I obviously took the terms negative connotations to heart. Your desire to honor the victim appropriately (in a way that doesn't happen in the song, as you critiques) is noted and very much appreciated. I apologize if I over-reacted and/or misinterpreted your original post.
Like you, I am 'fuming' but also this is not directed at you. It is a very emotional time. I go to mass one day a year (outside weddings and funerals) and tomorrows it.
Well done, jcawley. A nice and measured response. You've calmed me down.
I guess what everyone has to consider is that, almost surprisingly, for people on both sides of the Atlantic - certainly for people on Britain and in the States, and probably the rest of the world too, this anniversary, aritfical, arithmetical even, as such things are, is a fairly emotional time. That attack struck at something basic within us.
Thank you all for listening.
Thank you for the honest reactions.
Knowing how discussions sometimes progress here, any
reaction, positive or negative, is better than no reaction at all. It means you listened. If you listen once all the way through, that's all I asked for. If you listen more than once or your curiosity is piqued so that you listen to other
tunes and songs I have on my youtube channel that's even better.
I consider it a good sign that there is ambiguity in understanding how I used certain words in the song. I have found over the years that no matter what words I use in my own lyrics, everyone interprets them differently, and many often in totally unexpected ways that I would never have thought of. I also hoped to avoid imposing a viewpoint, though that I was not successful for some in this goal. However, I was using a melody strongly associated with "heroes", and I did not wish to ignore this association.
The idea for this song developed over time. It took awhile for me to get it to this point. A number of lyrics already changed and verses dropped. The video itself has undergone changes. It's a work in progress, but I'm pleased enough with it at this point to present it for your consideration. I worked with an amateur Irish-born singer who lives in my hometown. He made it his own. That convinced me that there was merit in pursuing the project further which has led me to this point. Thank you all for your interest and intelligent commentary.
I'm avoiding the news for the next 48 hours. It was traumatic enough on the day ten years ago. I don't think the ten-year anniversary media feeding frenzy honours anyone except for the pundits.
Something perhaps forgotten in the above - and in the last ten years, was how unused the U.S. was to being attacked on its own territory. For those in other parts of the world, some of us grew up on reports of attrocities, both historical and contemporary, much closer to home. I am pretty sure that affected the way people responded. Yes, that should resonate on here, too.
I'm not ashamed to say that in amongst the genuine sorrow I shared with the rest of western humanity, was a repressed hope that it might lead the U.S. to empathise a little more with other oppressed places and peoples.
I'm not going near the dicussion about whether that actually happened...
To be honest, putting words about the 2001 terrorist attack to an "irish" tune (which typically talk about how oppressed the Irish are - and apparently, by proxy, their descendants in the USA, for all eternity - you should see the Pittsburgh Irish thingy's monthy newsletter, which never fails to mention something horrible done to their ancestors and cousins back in Eire) creates an association between the problems in Ireland (and their resolution) and the 2001 attack which is simply not present - to the point of being unhealthy.
I like the theme of how the common man and woman can be extraordinary when circumstances force them to be, but the whole "freedom" schtick? You americans need to stop with that crap.
I'm sure their are some fine airs from the American Civil War period that could have been used to fit these words. The air used - Roddy McCorley/Sean South would be classed as sectarian and would automatically rule the song, albeit about the NYFD, out from being sung in Loyalist areas of Northern Ireland and Scotland. I also remember the same air being used about 50 years ago for a song about a Glasgow Celtic Goalkeeper...Johnny Thompson I think his name was.
Use another melody. It's distracting. Making up your own melody would be the best thing to do.
As a typical American I can say that I'm glad I don't live in the big concentration camp known as "The rest of the world". I don't know how you folks endure it! Do they really only let you out of your cells twice a day?
I still don't like to talk about that day. Just about everything I have seen that tries to memorialize it all ends up feeling too trivial to me. This song is one exception to that... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JOP24fO0Hw0
That was written about a drive from VA to Brooklyn to do a bar gig on Sept. 21, 2001 that turned into a benefit for a fire station that lost 7 members, and a reluctant visit to the site at the insistence of the firefighters at the gig.
I really liked GaryAMartin's piece. Well worth the 8.5 minutes. Fantastic.
Al's contribution by David Wilcox was a second favorite. It was good I think. Not something I would listen to a second time, but David sings lyrically.
Timmy's piece did not work for me. The word "freedom" was redefined by politicians following 9/11 so when I hear it in the song, I am confused. Being on "freedom's side" was being for war. Being against war was being "an enemy of freedom." It wasn't just words either. You could be detained and interviewed for days without contact with lawyers or family just for voicing concerns about war or the president's judgement.
Timmy's piece isn't about politics, I don't think. I thought it was about people who sacrifice their safety and well being to care for others. If it is about politics and it is for the use of "freedom" as a political lever to achieve objectives on the backs of a real tragedy, well then I really don't like the song at all.
I appreciate the brave sharing of a heartfelt and sincere composition about 9/11. The implementation leaves me confused, but I give Timmy the benefit of the doubt and assume that my problems with the song are more about my problems with US political rhetoric than with his choices of words.
This has been a great discussion.
I pondered the use of the word "freedom" in this song for a long time. I couldn't think of a better one that fit with the meter. Anyone who has a better line than:
"The Bravest Ones on Freedom's Side" is welcome to suggest one. Also, I was not surprised to see some mention of the sectarian nature of the prior associations with the melody. Someone even mentioned scrapping the melody entirely due to that. I'll tell you why I won't do that. I generally don't care for sectarian lyrics. I love many of the melodies however. This was my poor attempt to take a "heroic" melody and remove the sectarian association. Some comments here indicate to me that I did not succeed in this.
The people who have listened and responded on this forum are a highly sophisticated group when it comes to Irish music and its history. I assumed that anyone from here who responded would quickly make the "Roddy McCorley" or "Sean South" melody association. I hoped for strong reactions and I got them. On the other hand, outside the Irish music community, I have found that many who I've shared the song with, have a strong positive reaction to it. Some who've never heard the melody have commented that it sounded like an "old ballad". In these cases, there is no prior association, so they have a fresh chance to hear the melody, albeit with these words.
It is impossible to write a song about 9-11 that will please everyone.
That probably was said about WWII a long time ago, but that didn't stop Rogers and Hammerstein from promoting "South Pacific". What I didn't want was a retelling of the facts of the day like a news story set to music. Over the years I've seen many videos with a soundtrack that just shows the planes crashing and the towers crumbling. I've heard songs and videos that actually start out with something like this: "On 9-11-01 there was an attack by on the United States of America. Four giant planes were hijacked by Al Qaeda terrorists. Two were flown into the World Trade Center and one into the Pentagon. Etc. Etc. Etc."
This is a horrible story to try to put into a song. I maybe should have stayed away from thinking I could make sense of it in a song. There have so many bad ones already that I thought maybe I can do something better that I can sing to my own son, born in 2003, and he can learn about the day from this point of view, among many others.
I noticed a few other links to songs that have resonated with some of the audience here. The lack of comments on my own spoke volumes to me. That's common courtesy of course, which I greatly respect. I listened to all the other links.
I didn't care for any of them, honestly.
The only thing that has had any lasting power so far for me, among the superstar efforts, is Bruce Springsteen's "The Rising". It's a good melody and singalong, which I do enjoy, but, it still seems overly exploitative and commercial to me.
In late 2001, when I was more acutely feeling the grief of the events,
I landed on a video with a set of images of the attacks, set to the song
"Only Time" by Enya. This really resonated with me at the time. Now, I don't like to look at the images of the planes crashing and the towers crumbling. This is just watching mass murder over and over again. To me, this does not respect the memories of the victims, which include a number of my childhood friends. Therefore, I'm now done with "Only Time" by Enya, since I only think of the horrific images now when I hear that song.
Well, thanks for all of the input. If anyone actually is inspired by the song, and makes their own recording, with the same or improved verses, I'd love to keep track of it. Please send me a link if you do...
Does anyone doubt that? With regards to the song and its subject matter, the words "Our poor powers to add or detract" come to mind. So do the words "In a larger sense, we cannot dedicate -- we cannot consecrate we cannot hallow..." Some FEW songs have that power, and are eventually accepted. Good luck.
I too have been seeking escape from the onslaught of media coverage for this weekend - that began days ago - and I don't begrudge any of it, I just can't handle - and have found it under my headphones with Thursday night's session blaring, round and round as I go about my day.
I have to say, those two songs - Paxton and Wilcox - are very moving, and were all I needed to connect, briefly, to the day.
I don't like it one bit. This song is waaaaaaaaaaay too upbeat to reflect such a horrible, horrible tragedy. And the pictures in the background emphasize that.
"On a Tuesday morn in mid September in the year 2001,
The bravest ones on freedom's side met their fate each one by one.
They marched right in and up the stairs, none knew what lay in store..."
With bouncy, upbeat music, this sounds mocking. Not saying that you intended it to be, but that's how it sounds. No, no, this needs music that is sobering, contemplative.
You were there, so you understand and can relate to it more than me. I was in the 5th grade and our teacher put it on the news. But i feel that you could've been a lot more musically sensitive than this.
I like the Tom Paxton song very much as well. But still, I wouldn't want to listen to it very often. Maybe 20 years from now I'll feel differently, but it's really too depressing a subject right now.
*One* day, it might become clear who actually planned this outrage.
Whatever one might make of the 'conspiracy' / 'inside job' theories (parts of which seem to me flimsy, other parts strong), the complete absence of mention of these in UK papers I saw struck me as quite eerie.
Given level ground, the evidence and statements available now or over future years *ought* to enable a definite conclusion to be arrived at. Though level ground may not be given.
Indisputably, there were many heroes on that day. But I gather the firemen weren't invited to the commemoration.
They weren't invited because it was the opening of the memorial to the victims, and their families were invited. There wasn't room for everyone to go.
I started my day today doing enrichment at an elementary school. I was a bit early and walked in on the 5th grade class during their D.A.R.E. (anti-drug/tobacco/bullying program). The policeman that was delivering the instruction ended with his personal photos of that day, he was a cop in Brooklyn, a first responder. He showed the photos of ground zero, then handed the kids over to me. Not quite how I expected to start the day.
I played a waltz I had written years ago, after a school-violence incident, and then rewrote it (it hadn't started out as a waltz) for the 5-year anniversary, played as students recited some poetry. It's called Heartache Waltz.
Kinda more apt for fiddlelearner's laments thread....
My brother was to have been on flight 93, the one that crashed in PA. He got sick in Germany and came home a day early.
I went to work that day, after seeing the planes hit, and walked into an elementary school where parents dropped off their kids, who came running into the building screaming that we were being attacked. Little kids.
I will never forget.
Flight 93 is probably the most upsetting short film i've ever seen. I saw it for the first time several years after 9/11. 10 years old back then. Didn't really register in our heads what all had been happening and how devastating it all was. Now it's heart-breaking. I was a teenager when i learned about flight 93. -sigh- I didn't know the plane crashed.
I'm sure there were more who listened to the song link I provided than have commented. The comments have been sincere and respectful. It's fair to say that the mustard board audience who has written something here does not approve of the song.
Maybe the song needs another 50 to 100 years before people can listen to it without
cringing or a need to pontificate political positions.
I still feel OK about it. Some responses from other sources have indicated to me that others apparently feel this way too.
For a point of reference, here are recordings of "Roddy McCorley"
The melody is the same. The topics are similar. In each song, heroes met a cruel and violent death. I tried to update the melody to honor the heroes of 9/11/01. Thanks for listening. Roger that. Over and out.
I'm not too impressed that you seem more concerned over your bruised ego than the actual constructive comments made here, concerning a particularly tragic day in history.
You should just stop while you're ahead. Please don't compare people who died trying to save lives with people who died trying to take lives. And that's not to denigrate anyones political causes just...ya know...come on...not good.....
Writing a song about a mighty warriors last stand, and a song about innocent people dieing, are two completely different cases.
Writing a song about a might warriors' last stand would be to honour him and his *victories. The feats he accomplished. The things he conqured.
There is no victory in the death of innocent people.
If you don't take anything else with you, take this.
You need to be more sensitive. Because what you intend, may very well be very different than what is perceived.
These are the things that make me very curious to your motives...
"If you listen once all the way through, that's all I asked for. If you listen more than once or your curiosity is piqued so that you listen to other
tunes and songs I have on my youtube channel that's even better."
Please don't tell me this was your idea of scoring some cheap youtube points...
"However, I was using a melody strongly associated with "heroes", and I did not wish to ignore this association."
Why a melody associated with heroes? Why not melodies associated with the loss of loved ones?
"There have so many bad ones already that I thought maybe I can do something better ..."
Hopefully now you know how hard it is. Composing songs isn't easy, especially one about a horrific event that affected countless numbers of people. You can't take something like this lightly.
To be blunt, it sounds like you learned someone elses song, and threw words on top of them. Words that you don't seem to have taken a lot of thought into. You can't be a lazy composer with a subject like this.
The rhythm in the song is danceable. Bouncy. This is not a time for dancing.
Sorry to state the obvious, but obviously, it's not so obvious to you.
You probably would've done a lot better starting from complete scratch.
I am grateful for those who took the time to comment on the new lyrics to the old melody. I got what I asked for. Having used this site for quite awhile now, I've found that in general, this is a civil environment for testing out new ideas that relate to Irish music. That's all this was about. It's impossible to flesh out the nuances and misconceptions of these conversations in this format. I'd be glad to respond to any further comments via direct email.
I am sorry but, as has been said by shanty and fiddlelearner you can not compare the tragedy in New York with old Irish rebel songs. That is just offensive in the extreme.
Also, given that one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter, I am sure there are many (I wouldn't be one of them) who would see more of a parallel between the Irish rebels and the people who flew the planes into the Towers!!
Ireland has had a long poitical and oft-times bloody struggle and, frankly, it doesn't need ignorant contributions from folk that clearly don't understand what they are referring to.
10 Years since 9-11-2001
10 Years since 9-11-2001
This weekend many people will be thinking about the passage of time since a very difficult day 10 years ago.
I was in Manhattan at the time so I have some particularly
sense-laden memories of the actually signts, sounds, and smells that lasted for months. I lost some good friends.
My long-term reaction was a song. I asked a friend from Ireland to sing it. I took an old melody that has at least 2 sets of lyrics that I'm aware of. I thought that why not update the song, since it has gone through this process before.
I pondered whether to submit it to this audience, but I am interested in the reaction of Irish people and musicians who may be ambivalent about hearing new words to a melody that they associate with other topics.
Please listen if you're interested and don't hesitate to comment either here or on the actual youtube clip page.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EA2F6pXv5n4
Thank you.
Timmy May (halfwaythere)
Rhode Island, USA
# Posted on September 10th 2011 by halfwaythere
Re: 10 Years since 9-11-2001
Thoughts with the families. I'm only part-Irish, but it sure sounds right with me.
# Posted on September 10th 2011 by TimWhistles
Re: 10 Years since 9-11-2001
I emigrated from the USA to Australia on Sept 10, 1991.
I was out over the Pacific Ocean coming into Sydney exactly
10 years before 9/11.
# Posted on September 10th 2011 by Hup
Re: 10 Years since 9-11-2001
I'm not Irish, but I wouldn't have a problem with old tunes being used for new words. I can't see how anyone would. It's how it's been done throughout musical history.
However, I really don't like these words. Firstly, they don't scan or fit the tune. But that's not the worst of it. The problem for me is one of taste. I think the tragedy of 9/11 is that so many ordinary people lost their lives. The best? The bravest? the young? Nonsense. These were ordinary people, like me.
These words leave a sour taste in my mouth.
My thoughts, too, are with the families of the many decent, and some not so decent, ordinary men and women who lost their lives on 11th September 2001.
# Posted on September 10th 2011 by ethical blend
Re: 10 Years since 9-11-2001
I agree with Ethical Blend. The image of "brave" people "marching in and up the stairs" (I'm sure that most would have used the elevators, anyway) or "on the side of freedom" gives a very false perspective on the whole tragedy. As though these people innocently going about their business was some act of defiance.
Sure, there was a lot of bravery after the attack. None more so than those passengers who tried to gain control of the plane that came down in Pennsylvania or the emergency services and others who attended the scene of the tragedy - perhaps some of the victims too showed selflessness in helping others during the chaos - but to suggest that there was "marching on the side of freedom" is putting a different, and somewhat tasteless slant on this terrible episode in history.
# Posted on September 10th 2011 by Weejie
Re: 10 Years since 9-11-2001
Dear Timmy,
Thank you for putting your thoughts and feelings to music, I think it is commendable. To me some of the wordings doesn't match up with the music in a natural way. The lyrics don't really resonate with my memories and/or feelings of the tragic day. Perhaps lots of the words are vague and rely on emotional charge. I think you should continue singing the song as an emotional release for yourself. Perhaps in the future you can rework the wording and flow of the lyrics and music.
I somewhat agree with Weejie. I dislike your overuse of the word freedom. People didn't march in for freedom or on the side of freedom. 'Freedom' as a concept or term didn't come into play at all on the day of 9-11 (If my memory serves me correct). It wasn't til weeks after the term starting being used to motivate the nation to rebuild. But I think the ethical blends comments are completely misguided.
In reference to ethical blend: I'm actually quite upset that a person in 2011 can sit behind the safety of their computer screen and basically call people who suffered on 9/11 'ordinary.' I understand what you were TRYING to say (That they were innocent people, just going about their day, etc), but the undertones of your wordings also 'leaves a sour taste in my mouth.' Their final moments on earth were anything but ordinary. Of course many 'average' people would have been petrified. Many would have felt fear and hopelessness. But it seems like you are forgetting there were thousands of people who DID showed unbelievable bravery on the day. Hundreds of official firemen and police officers died, and who knows how many more 'ordinary' people died trying to help others. I believe Timmy was trying to capture these sentiments in the song (although I admit the wording needs work, and perhaps he did not do this quite as effectively as we would have liked). If you disagree with Timmy's arrangement keep your constructive criticism to the musical & lyrical content, not the character of the people on the day. - This is a major aspect that I disliked about ethical blend's comments.
# Posted on September 10th 2011 by jcawley
Re: 10 Years since 9-11-2001
How very odd. I'm proud to be an ordinary person. I found the song offensive, to be honest. And, as I said, precisely because it didn't recognise the "ordinariness" of the people involved. They were people just like people the world over. Like you and me. And they died in an incomprehensible way and for incomprehensible reasons. Incomprehensible to me, at any rate. To me it's disresepectful of their memories not to recognise this.
And I *was* keeping my comments to the musical and lyrical content.
Look how emotionally charged this event is, and will continue to be. I bet both you and me, jcawley, are sitting here now fuming. I'm actually not fuming at you, if that's any help. But I am feeling pretty cut up that you couldn't recognise the insult to the ordinary humanity (yes, ordinary - a noble term, in my book) that Timmy's song represents.
# Posted on September 10th 2011 by ethical blend
Re: 10 Years since 9-11-2001
I agree EB - but you're forgetting the 'celebrity mindset' of much of the modern western world. For some, the instinctive reaction is to hype/idolise people into being something they weren't.
In fact, I reckon the 'hero-ising' of ordinary people has gone on for as long as there have been people. And others recoiled from it. Think Wilfred Owen.
# Posted on September 10th 2011 by ian stock
Re: 10 Years since 9-11-2001
Here's another thing. I'm not forgetting the almost incredible bravery of those firemen and, probably, though we'll never know, many, many people in the buildings who may have ended up losing their lives. I read Weejie's comments about them and secretly applauded.
But still, to me, the fact remains: the firemen and others were ordinary people doing extraordinary things. It's one of the most positive things you can take out of this dreadful tragedy. Call those people heroes if you must. And they undoubtedly were, on the day. But I also take huge comfort from the extraordinary acts of heroism that ordinary human beings accomplish in the face of terrible events. I find it uplifting.
Turning to the people trapped in the buildings: if you don't recognise their "ordinariness" you separate them from people like you. They are, somehow, 'apart'. But I can imagine vividly what they went through because, at another time in my life, it's possible that could have been me, in some office somewhere. Me. Not some vague "hero" who isn't an ordinary person like me.
But anyway, jcawley, you don't want me to talk about the people - it's OK for you to talk about them, but not me, apparently. Great sense of shared humanity there, bro.
And now, having thought about it - I *am* angry at what you said. So I shall go away and fume for a while.
# Posted on September 10th 2011 by ethical blend
Re: 10 Years since 9-11-2001
Exactly, Ian.
# Posted on September 10th 2011 by ethical blend
Re: 10 Years since 9-11-2001
I don't think Timmy insulted the 'ordinary humanity.' I think we can agree his lyrics are misguided more than anything. Perhaps so misguided (in your opinion) that it sabotages his intentions to memorialize all involved.
ethical blend, appreciate your sentiments and thank you for the response. I'm relieved to read that you consider 'ordinary' to be a noble characteristic. From your original post this was obvious unclear/misread by me. I obviously took the terms negative connotations to heart. Your desire to honor the victim appropriately (in a way that doesn't happen in the song, as you critiques) is noted and very much appreciated. I apologize if I over-reacted and/or misinterpreted your original post.
Like you, I am 'fuming' but also this is not directed at you. It is a very emotional time. I go to mass one day a year (outside weddings and funerals) and tomorrows it.
# Posted on September 10th 2011 by jcawley
Re: 10 Years since 9-11-2001
Well done, jcawley. A nice and measured response. You've calmed me down.
I guess what everyone has to consider is that, almost surprisingly, for people on both sides of the Atlantic - certainly for people on Britain and in the States, and probably the rest of the world too, this anniversary, aritfical, arithmetical even, as such things are, is a fairly emotional time. That attack struck at something basic within us.
# Posted on September 10th 2011 by ethical blend
Re: 10 Years since 9-11-2001
Thank you all for listening.
Thank you for the honest reactions.
Knowing how discussions sometimes progress here, any
reaction, positive or negative, is better than no reaction at all. It means you listened. If you listen once all the way through, that's all I asked for. If you listen more than once or your curiosity is piqued so that you listen to other
tunes and songs I have on my youtube channel that's even better.
I consider it a good sign that there is ambiguity in understanding how I used certain words in the song. I have found over the years that no matter what words I use in my own lyrics, everyone interprets them differently, and many often in totally unexpected ways that I would never have thought of. I also hoped to avoid imposing a viewpoint, though that I was not successful for some in this goal. However, I was using a melody strongly associated with "heroes", and I did not wish to ignore this association.
The idea for this song developed over time. It took awhile for me to get it to this point. A number of lyrics already changed and verses dropped. The video itself has undergone changes. It's a work in progress, but I'm pleased enough with it at this point to present it for your consideration. I worked with an amateur Irish-born singer who lives in my hometown. He made it his own. That convinced me that there was merit in pursuing the project further which has led me to this point. Thank you all for your interest and intelligent commentary.
# Posted on September 10th 2011 by halfwaythere
Re: 10 Years since 9-11-2001
I'm avoiding the news for the next 48 hours. It was traumatic enough on the day ten years ago. I don't think the ten-year anniversary media feeding frenzy honours anyone except for the pundits.
# Posted on September 10th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: 10 Years since 9-11-2001
Something perhaps forgotten in the above - and in the last ten years, was how unused the U.S. was to being attacked on its own territory. For those in other parts of the world, some of us grew up on reports of attrocities, both historical and contemporary, much closer to home. I am pretty sure that affected the way people responded. Yes, that should resonate on here, too.
I'm not ashamed to say that in amongst the genuine sorrow I shared with the rest of western humanity, was a repressed hope that it might lead the U.S. to empathise a little more with other oppressed places and peoples.
I'm not going near the dicussion about whether that actually happened...
# Posted on September 10th 2011 by ian stock
Re: 10 Years since 9-11-2001
Emily, totally agree with you, above...
# Posted on September 10th 2011 by ian stock
Re: 10 Years since 9-11-2001
To be honest, putting words about the 2001 terrorist attack to an "irish" tune (which typically talk about how oppressed the Irish are - and apparently, by proxy, their descendants in the USA, for all eternity - you should see the Pittsburgh Irish thingy's monthy newsletter, which never fails to mention something horrible done to their ancestors and cousins back in Eire) creates an association between the problems in Ireland (and their resolution) and the 2001 attack which is simply not present - to the point of being unhealthy.
I like the theme of how the common man and woman can be extraordinary when circumstances force them to be, but the whole "freedom" schtick? You americans need to stop with that crap.
# Posted on September 10th 2011 by Tirno
Re: 10 Years since 9-11-2001
@ Tirno
"Stereotype Department, Typical American speaking. How may I help you?"
# Posted on September 10th 2011 by John Galt
Re: 10 Years since 9-11-2001
I'm sure their are some fine airs from the American Civil War period that could have been used to fit these words. The air used - Roddy McCorley/Sean South would be classed as sectarian and would automatically rule the song, albeit about the NYFD, out from being sung in Loyalist areas of Northern Ireland and Scotland. I also remember the same air being used about 50 years ago for a song about a Glasgow Celtic Goalkeeper...Johnny Thompson I think his name was.
# Posted on September 10th 2011 by Free Reed
Re: 10 Years since 9-11-2001
@ John Galt: I haven't met a typical American yet. Last year I met a guy who *said* he was a typical American. Turns out he wasn't. Natch'ly.
# Posted on September 10th 2011 by ethical blend
Re: 10 Years since 9-11-2001
Use another melody. It's distracting. Making up your own melody would be the best thing to do.
As a typical American I can say that I'm glad I don't live in the big concentration camp known as "The rest of the world". I don't know how you folks endure it! Do they really only let you out of your cells twice a day?
Tirno is absolutely correct! It's getting old....
# Posted on September 10th 2011 by shanty
Re: 10 Years since 9-11-2001
"Last year I met a guy who *said* he was a typical American. Turns out he wasn't".
Typical, eh ?
# Posted on September 10th 2011 by Richard Robinson
Re: 10 Years since 9-11-2001
I still don't like to talk about that day. Just about everything I have seen that tries to memorialize it all ends up feeling too trivial to me. This song is one exception to that...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JOP24fO0Hw0
# Posted on September 11th 2011 by AlBrown
Re: 10 Years since 9-11-2001
Try this one, Al, and anyone who has 8:25 to spare.
http://www.myspace.com/louisledford/music/songs/september-78732677
# Posted on September 11th 2011 by GaryAMartin
Re: 10 Years since 9-11-2001
Thanks for that, Gary.
# Posted on September 11th 2011 by AlBrown
Re: 10 Years since 9-11-2001
That was written about a drive from VA to Brooklyn to do a bar gig on Sept. 21, 2001 that turned into a benefit for a fire station that lost 7 members, and a reluctant visit to the site at the insistence of the firefighters at the gig.
# Posted on September 11th 2011 by GaryAMartin
Re: 10 Years since 9-11-2001
I really liked GaryAMartin's piece. Well worth the 8.5 minutes. Fantastic.
Al's contribution by David Wilcox was a second favorite. It was good I think. Not something I would listen to a second time, but David sings lyrically.
Timmy's piece did not work for me. The word "freedom" was redefined by politicians following 9/11 so when I hear it in the song, I am confused. Being on "freedom's side" was being for war. Being against war was being "an enemy of freedom." It wasn't just words either. You could be detained and interviewed for days without contact with lawyers or family just for voicing concerns about war or the president's judgement.
Timmy's piece isn't about politics, I don't think. I thought it was about people who sacrifice their safety and well being to care for others. If it is about politics and it is for the use of "freedom" as a political lever to achieve objectives on the backs of a real tragedy, well then I really don't like the song at all.
I appreciate the brave sharing of a heartfelt and sincere composition about 9/11. The implementation leaves me confused, but I give Timmy the benefit of the doubt and assume that my problems with the song are more about my problems with US political rhetoric than with his choices of words.
# Posted on September 11th 2011 by abuteague
Re: 10 Years since 9-11-2001
This has been a great discussion.
I pondered the use of the word "freedom" in this song for a long time. I couldn't think of a better one that fit with the meter. Anyone who has a better line than:
"The Bravest Ones on Freedom's Side" is welcome to suggest one. Also, I was not surprised to see some mention of the sectarian nature of the prior associations with the melody. Someone even mentioned scrapping the melody entirely due to that. I'll tell you why I won't do that. I generally don't care for sectarian lyrics. I love many of the melodies however. This was my poor attempt to take a "heroic" melody and remove the sectarian association. Some comments here indicate to me that I did not succeed in this.
The people who have listened and responded on this forum are a highly sophisticated group when it comes to Irish music and its history. I assumed that anyone from here who responded would quickly make the "Roddy McCorley" or "Sean South" melody association. I hoped for strong reactions and I got them. On the other hand, outside the Irish music community, I have found that many who I've shared the song with, have a strong positive reaction to it. Some who've never heard the melody have commented that it sounded like an "old ballad". In these cases, there is no prior association, so they have a fresh chance to hear the melody, albeit with these words.
It is impossible to write a song about 9-11 that will please everyone.
That probably was said about WWII a long time ago, but that didn't stop Rogers and Hammerstein from promoting "South Pacific". What I didn't want was a retelling of the facts of the day like a news story set to music. Over the years I've seen many videos with a soundtrack that just shows the planes crashing and the towers crumbling. I've heard songs and videos that actually start out with something like this: "On 9-11-01 there was an attack by on the United States of America. Four giant planes were hijacked by Al Qaeda terrorists. Two were flown into the World Trade Center and one into the Pentagon. Etc. Etc. Etc."
This is a horrible story to try to put into a song. I maybe should have stayed away from thinking I could make sense of it in a song. There have so many bad ones already that I thought maybe I can do something better that I can sing to my own son, born in 2003, and he can learn about the day from this point of view, among many others.
I noticed a few other links to songs that have resonated with some of the audience here. The lack of comments on my own spoke volumes to me. That's common courtesy of course, which I greatly respect. I listened to all the other links.
I didn't care for any of them, honestly.
The only thing that has had any lasting power so far for me, among the superstar efforts, is Bruce Springsteen's "The Rising". It's a good melody and singalong, which I do enjoy, but, it still seems overly exploitative and commercial to me.
In late 2001, when I was more acutely feeling the grief of the events,
I landed on a video with a set of images of the attacks, set to the song
"Only Time" by Enya. This really resonated with me at the time. Now, I don't like to look at the images of the planes crashing and the towers crumbling. This is just watching mass murder over and over again. To me, this does not respect the memories of the victims, which include a number of my childhood friends. Therefore, I'm now done with "Only Time" by Enya, since I only think of the horrific images now when I hear that song.
Well, thanks for all of the input. If anyone actually is inspired by the song, and makes their own recording, with the same or improved verses, I'd love to keep track of it. Please send me a link if you do...
# Posted on September 11th 2011 by halfwaythere
Re: 10 Years since 9-11-2001
I have always liked Tom Paxton's song for 9/11
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hEGjzuGI71w
I am not getting into the debate above but the bravery of the firemen that went into those buildings can not be doubted.
# Posted on September 11th 2011 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: 10 Years since 9-11-2001
Does anyone doubt that? With regards to the song and its subject matter, the words "Our poor powers to add or detract" come to mind. So do the words "In a larger sense, we cannot dedicate -- we cannot consecrate we cannot hallow..." Some FEW songs have that power, and are eventually accepted. Good luck.
# Posted on September 11th 2011 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: 10 Years since 9-11-2001
I too have been seeking escape from the onslaught of media coverage for this weekend - that began days ago - and I don't begrudge any of it, I just can't handle - and have found it under my headphones with Thursday night's session blaring, round and round as I go about my day.
I have to say, those two songs - Paxton and Wilcox - are very moving, and were all I needed to connect, briefly, to the day.
Sorry, I'm a baby.
# Posted on September 11th 2011 by sara505sings
Re: 10 Years since 9-11-2001
I don't like it one bit. This song is waaaaaaaaaaay too upbeat to reflect such a horrible, horrible tragedy. And the pictures in the background emphasize that.
"On a Tuesday morn in mid September in the year 2001,
The bravest ones on freedom's side met their fate each one by one.
They marched right in and up the stairs, none knew what lay in store..."
With bouncy, upbeat music, this sounds mocking. Not saying that you intended it to be, but that's how it sounds. No, no, this needs music that is sobering, contemplative.
You were there, so you understand and can relate to it more than me. I was in the 5th grade and our teacher put it on the news. But i feel that you could've been a lot more musically sensitive than this.
# Posted on September 12th 2011 by fiddlelearner
Re: 10 Years since 9-11-2001
I like the Tom Paxton song very much as well. But still, I wouldn't want to listen to it very often. Maybe 20 years from now I'll feel differently, but it's really too depressing a subject right now.
# Posted on September 12th 2011 by kennedy
Re: 10 Years since 9-11-2001
*One* day, it might become clear who actually planned this outrage.
Whatever one might make of the 'conspiracy' / 'inside job' theories (parts of which seem to me flimsy, other parts strong), the complete absence of mention of these in UK papers I saw struck me as quite eerie.
Given level ground, the evidence and statements available now or over future years *ought* to enable a definite conclusion to be arrived at. Though level ground may not be given.
Indisputably, there were many heroes on that day. But I gather the firemen weren't invited to the commemoration.
# Posted on September 13th 2011 by nicholas
Re: 10 Years since 9-11-2001
They weren't invited because it was the opening of the memorial to the victims, and their families were invited. There wasn't room for everyone to go.
I started my day today doing enrichment at an elementary school. I was a bit early and walked in on the 5th grade class during their D.A.R.E. (anti-drug/tobacco/bullying program). The policeman that was delivering the instruction ended with his personal photos of that day, he was a cop in Brooklyn, a first responder. He showed the photos of ground zero, then handed the kids over to me. Not quite how I expected to start the day.
I played a waltz I had written years ago, after a school-violence incident, and then rewrote it (it hadn't started out as a waltz) for the 5-year anniversary, played as students recited some poetry. It's called Heartache Waltz.
Kinda more apt for fiddlelearner's laments thread....
My brother was to have been on flight 93, the one that crashed in PA. He got sick in Germany and came home a day early.
I went to work that day, after seeing the planes hit, and walked into an elementary school where parents dropped off their kids, who came running into the building screaming that we were being attacked. Little kids.
I will never forget.
# Posted on September 13th 2011 by Wyogal
Re: 10 Years since 9-11-2001
and, I agree with fiddlelearner on this one.
# Posted on September 13th 2011 by Wyogal
Re: 10 Years since 9-11-2001
Flight 93 is probably the most upsetting short film i've ever seen. I saw it for the first time several years after 9/11. 10 years old back then. Didn't really register in our heads what all had been happening and how devastating it all was. Now it's heart-breaking. I was a teenager when i learned about flight 93. -sigh- I didn't know the plane crashed.
# Posted on September 13th 2011 by fiddlelearner
Re: 10 Years since 9-11-2001
I'm sure there were more who listened to the song link I provided than have commented. The comments have been sincere and respectful. It's fair to say that the mustard board audience who has written something here does not approve of the song.
Maybe the song needs another 50 to 100 years before people can listen to it without
cringing or a need to pontificate political positions.
I still feel OK about it. Some responses from other sources have indicated to me that others apparently feel this way too.
For a point of reference, here are recordings of "Roddy McCorley"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xkknyuEE498&feature=related
and
"Sean South"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pAQfJ5AZRyk
The melody is the same. The topics are similar. In each song, heroes met a cruel and violent death. I tried to update the melody to honor the heroes of 9/11/01. Thanks for listening. Roger that. Over and out.
# Posted on September 13th 2011 by halfwaythere
Re: 10 Years since 9-11-2001
I'm not too impressed that you seem more concerned over your bruised ego than the actual constructive comments made here, concerning a particularly tragic day in history.
# Posted on September 13th 2011 by Weejie
Re: 10 Years since 9-11-2001
You should just stop while you're ahead. Please don't compare people who died trying to save lives with people who died trying to take lives. And that's not to denigrate anyones political causes just...ya know...come on...not good.....
# Posted on September 14th 2011 by shanty
Re: 10 Years since 9-11-2001
Writing a song about a mighty warriors last stand, and a song about innocent people dieing, are two completely different cases.
Writing a song about a might warriors' last stand would be to honour him and his *victories. The feats he accomplished. The things he conqured.
There is no victory in the death of innocent people.
If you don't take anything else with you, take this.
You need to be more sensitive. Because what you intend, may very well be very different than what is perceived.
These are the things that make me very curious to your motives...
"If you listen once all the way through, that's all I asked for. If you listen more than once or your curiosity is piqued so that you listen to other
tunes and songs I have on my youtube channel that's even better."
Please don't tell me this was your idea of scoring some cheap youtube points...
"However, I was using a melody strongly associated with "heroes", and I did not wish to ignore this association."
Why a melody associated with heroes? Why not melodies associated with the loss of loved ones?
"There have so many bad ones already that I thought maybe I can do something better ..."
Hopefully now you know how hard it is. Composing songs isn't easy, especially one about a horrific event that affected countless numbers of people. You can't take something like this lightly.
To be blunt, it sounds like you learned someone elses song, and threw words on top of them. Words that you don't seem to have taken a lot of thought into. You can't be a lazy composer with a subject like this.
The rhythm in the song is danceable. Bouncy. This is not a time for dancing.
Sorry to state the obvious, but obviously, it's not so obvious to you.
You probably would've done a lot better starting from complete scratch.
# Posted on September 14th 2011 by fiddlelearner
Re: 10 Years since 9-11-2001
I am grateful for those who took the time to comment on the new lyrics to the old melody. I got what I asked for. Having used this site for quite awhile now, I've found that in general, this is a civil environment for testing out new ideas that relate to Irish music. That's all this was about. It's impossible to flesh out the nuances and misconceptions of these conversations in this format. I'd be glad to respond to any further comments via direct email.
# Posted on September 14th 2011 by halfwaythere
Re: 10 Years since 9-11-2001
I am sorry but, as has been said by shanty and fiddlelearner you can not compare the tragedy in New York with old Irish rebel songs. That is just offensive in the extreme.
Also, given that one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter, I am sure there are many (I wouldn't be one of them) who would see more of a parallel between the Irish rebels and the people who flew the planes into the Towers!!
Ireland has had a long poitical and oft-times bloody struggle and, frankly, it doesn't need ignorant contributions from folk that clearly don't understand what they are referring to.
# Posted on September 14th 2011 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: 10 Years since 9-11-2001
Well said, Al.
# Posted on September 14th 2011 by DrSilverSpear