Can anyone suggest what the inherent advantages are in playing a bc box (or c#d etc...) over a box in gd? I've read all sorts of comments like "start on a gd box, then when youve been at it for a while move on to the more difficult bc," or "gd doesnt really work too well for ITM." Right now I'm playing a drafty old thing in cf pretending it's in dg (the price was right...), but I'm feeling it might be soon time to upgrade to something a bit more airtight (and my wife is getting tired of tuning her fiddle down a whole step so we can play together). I don't really find much trouble making most of the tunes I've tried work, so what is all the hype about the bc boxes? why not in gd? Enlighten me.
If "all sorts of comments" that you've read about B/C boxes seem to be "hype" to you then I think enlightenment is going to be illusive and perhaps even unecessary. Get a G/D.
If it's working for you, it's a good instrument to play. The only inherent advantage I can see would be that the B/C has the F naturals, and there are a few tunes that really use those well, and are fun to play. (The Cook In the Kitchen, for example). There are also some tunes in A major that rock the G#.
I like the B/C layout myself, but I'm not going to tell anyone they have to like it too.
with GD boxes, you can play in G and D, and relatives, but you don't have all the notes, apart from some models that have accidentals on the 2 top buttons, with which you can play some chromaticism, but it's awesomely tricky. Some players manage it very well though, just look at the basque trikitixa players like Kepa Junkera... the advantage is with the fact the left hand is adapted to the right, meaning you can play chords, on both hands, and use the box for accompaniment as well as melody. French, italians English use the GD system, some with great taste for ITM (Julian Sutton or Andy Cutting for instance). but most - like me ! use a 3-row, most of the time GD (or CF or AD or GC), with all the accidentals on the 3rd row. Heavier box, but, as I said, a lot of possibilities to use the instrument for backing as well as melody. With BC, you have all the notes on 2 rows, but you are limited with use of basses (I hear already some of you on this site saying "who cares, no need of basse for ITM...). Every instrument has its possibilities and limits... youe choice is either going on BC, and having to relearn all your fingerings, or getting a real DG a bit newer (boxes tend not to get better with age...). Teh music never depends on the instrument, it depends on the way it's played...
a B/C is fully chromatic whereas you have just two sharps on a D/G. D/Gs are perfect for morris music and other chordy english music but for Irish music I would go for a B/C or C#/D. the ornaments will sound more irish on a B/C
If you are inclined to opt for the chordy diatonic solution, but are a litlle concerned about the lack of accidentals, you might consider buying a three-row (A/D/G) box.
The additional sharp (G#) will give you the ability to play in AMaj and its related keys.
DJF -'the ornaments will sound more irish on a B/C'
What about the likes of Johnny Connolly of Connemara who plays the one row melodeon? (in D?) He sounds pretty 'Irish' to my ears!
what i meant was that rolls which use semi tones will sound more irish than what you'd get on a D/G. the one row style is completely different from the two row box style. Reading between the lines I think the OP is looking for a two row box.
DG works for me. Have tried BC but couldn't get on with it. BC does give better rolls as DJF pointed out, but if your only playing in mid-level sessions for fun does it really matter? Each to their own, I say.
The advantage of the gd is there are more alternatives for cross rowing, because there are more notes going the other direction which are the same, I think its five, The bc has 2.
the dga or 2 and a half row[ imo] is the best answer for fully chromatic playing, overall the chords are easier to play as well particularly in D.
Rolls can be played on aGD some find it easier with stepped fingering, check out Tim Edey or Cathy Cook orJim Bainbridge or Tony Hall.
You can certainly play great Irish music on a D/G (not G/D, outer row comes first, as in B/C). The question is whether you want to be stuck to a limited range of keys (one or two sharps) - exactly what you can get on a keyless flute or D whistle. Good enough for lots of flute players, but not good enough for me (after years of playing a whistle).
What is the hype about B/C all about? Well, when you play B/C, you can aspire to sound like a top B/C player. There are plenty of great ones around to admire and emulate. Do any of them have the style and sound that really grabs you? If so, go for B/C. (Same goes for C#/D.)
I certainly would not recommend starting on D/G, getting up to speed on it, and then going over to B/C. You'll probably fry your brain and go back to D/G pronto. It's a different logic, at least for playing in D major. If you like B/C, start with it. If you like D/G, well, stick with it.
One great thing about semitone boxes (apart from the ability to play naff-sounding rolls with out-of-key lower grace notes) is not that they are truly chromatic (they aren't, for practical purposes). It's that you are never stuck for an accidental, and the accidental you are never stuck for is right where it needs to be, next to the rest of the action in the tune.
This topic has recently been discussed on Melodeon.net with some interesting comments so it might be worth a look there as well.
I have a BC which I am learning as a second instrument and chose this as I'm into Irish stuff, the muscians I like best tend to be mainly BC players - but if you are a fair way down the DG route then stick with that - Tim Edey plays brilliant music on his but then I think he could play anything well
Look at it this way....If you only want to play tunes on the one row in what is known as the 'Up and Down' method aka Melodion style of playing. That's fine assuming of course that the other players you might be playing with stick to tunes in G and D and those without an F natural.
My advice....learn the proper fingering for a B/C or a C#/D box and you'll have the world of accordion music at your fingertips, and you can avoid having to jump around like this.
Free Reed, you dont seem to understand the DG, It has more scope for across the row playing than the bc, it has more notes that are the same that are available in different directions, it is not just about playing straight up and down the rows, if the player wishes to play in A then the answer is a 2 and a half row dg, although some Atunes are possible on the DG, A mixolydian tunes are not a problem either.
ONE disadvantage of the the BC is it is NOT GOOD for playing a minor chords.
I started on the DG for six months before switching to the BC. I wanted to play pure drop Irish trad and at the time I thought:
- many more DVD tutors available for BC (important as there would be less than 5 Irish box players within 2000 km of me and no teachers)
- box players I admired played BC or another chromatic tuning
- the ornamentation DID sound more right to my ear than the DG.
- the overall sympathetic resonance of the BC sounds more minor/modal/sean-nos to me, and I prefer that
- the DG could easily sound English and morrisy, especially when using the basses, and I though that was a bit naff (I enjoy that stuff more now)
- I didn't like the feeling of being limited in the accidentals/modes I could use. The arguments like "it's fine because 80% of Irish tunes are in D or G, or a related mode" just didn't cover it.
I found the transition from one system to the other quite confusing and difficult for a fairly short time, but I'm glad I didn't leave it any later. Four years later, I've never regretted going to BC. The better I get, the more I like it. Very rarely I think I'd like to learn some non-Irish tunes on my DG, but I don't do it. Two fingering systems in my head will slow me down getting good on one.
What sort of music do you want to play, and how do you want it to sound?
I tried to write something earlier but it didn't seem to take, so try again...
Holy crud you folks are quick! Thanks for all the advice, opinions and comments. I don't come accross too many box players here in the bush in Ontario, and I came to the box kinda haphazzardly. I play whistle, and fiddle for a bit until I injured my left arm. I've always liked the sound of some box players (say Mick McAuley, not the jumping up and down guys! but don't know much about them or Irish box playing, nor even have much recordings of them. I suppose it's a good excuse to go to Toronto or Ottawa and hang around in pubs looking for more box players!
"I certainly would not recommend starting on D/G, getting up to speed on it, and then going over to B/C. You'll probably fry your brain and go back to D/G pronto..." (Jeeves Tones)
Nor would I, because that was exactly my own experience. I take it it was the same for Rudall the time. Don't underestimate the difficulty of changing from a system you've got used to to another one - unless you're as bright as a button.
I now play two-and-a-half row DG, which gives me the ability to play all sorts of tunes with accidentals - it's just that in the main I have to play them in the same base *keys* as before: D, G, A and the relevant minors.
But I'm happy with that, at any rate for now. I was never particularly eager to play, say, Dm or Gm reels in those keys on the new box, but I did want to play all manner of pop, light classical and suchlike, and playing these in D or G with accidentals suits me fine. Meanwhile, the G# note is the most valuable of the additions for trad, enabling me to do justice to those A major tunes that need it.
The DG is a box which, with its basses / cross-fingering possibilities / 'push' and 'pull' alternatives for certain notes, can make a real meal of tunes within its range, especially slow ones of any kind. But I always wanted to play tunes outside its range, and felt rather claustrophobic within it. That's one reason why I got the 2-1/2 row, the other being that I wanted a box with an altogether better action than my first one.
I've never played a DG with accidentals confined to the uppermost buttons on the right side. To me they look difficult to use in the course of fast tune playing, but I dare say necessity breeds curiously accomplishments. My first DG had no accidentals, and thus had all the more fruity chords...
I play BC box, but for a change of pace, I love playing tunes in C, single row style, with all those great double stops and chords you can throw in. Great for sea chantey accompaniment, among other things.
Tim Edey manages to play a D/G-box and make it sound Irish. The rest of us are not him. Every well known player of Irish music on the diatonic accordeon plays B/C or C#/D (or in any case a semi-tone apart, or in rare and wonderful cases a one-row). Playing a D/G, G/C, C/F etc. box (and especially using the basses like you would on that type of box) will not produce anything that sounds real Irish dance music (unless you are Tim Edey). There´s really no need for this endless discussion about tunings.
So spoke Bjorn, what is real irish?have a listen to Rose Murphy, playing a DG.
Bjorn, There is plenty of need for discussion, and by the way Tim Edey is from Kent in England
I knew someone would say that, and I know full well that Tim Edey is English. But it's really not helpful to say to someone that wants to play Irish tunes on the box to play an instrument that´s not really suited to the music. And yes, I know about Rose Murphy, and yes you can play tunes on any bleedin instrument you want. Can you play Irish tunes on a 5 String banjo? Of course you can! It's not going to sound like on a tenor though. Any if you play a box in G/C, D/G or what have you, it's probably not going to sound like this:
g/d has more "magic notes," i.e., notes common to both rows, so you have the note in one row on the push, and in the other row on the pull. this way you can make choices about whether to play a given passage "on the row" so it is more a "back and forth" sound, or play it "across the rows" and get more smooth, flowing phrasing.
however, g/d gives you fewer key choices, because it is the notes in the key of G (one sharp, the others "white keys") plus the notes in the key of D, which is the same as G but for the added sharp, a C sharp you'll have on the D row where you'll have a C natural on the G row.
so....essentially, you are limited in your keys to D, G, A, and their relative minors.
with a semitone box, you get every accidental in the 12-tone universe, plus, if you have the internal stuffing to suck it up and learn the fingering, you can play in every damn key known to man, though many semitone players don't go there. for example, lots of c#/d players keep a b/c around so they can keep their "on the row" fingering for flat seshes.
n chatting up the pluses of b/c, i'm gonna skip over the roll-enabling features, because others have already covered it, plus, i don't give a damn about rolls. i think they're obnoxious-sounding on accordion. so here goes....if your choice was b/c, and you wanted to get this good, you could play "on the row" using your C row in all the wonderful east clare-ish, east galwayish C seshes, plus, you could play "on the row" using your B row in all the wonderful B seshes. Plus, you could play "across the rows" for D, A, G, and their relative minors, i.e., the "D row" keys that c#/d players play "on the row."
PLUS, if you wanted, you COULD additionally learn b-flat, e-flat, and a-flat, and play along with the Mulcahy Family records, and the Noel Hill records. it is counterintuitive. it is a pain in the keester. but it is doable.
and you COULD get ALL THIS in an adorable yet amazingly loud, and astoundingly compact and portable six/7-pound box, if you so chose.......
a couple comments on past comments:
[ONE disadvantage of the the BC is it is NOT GOOD for playing a minor chords.]....it may not be great for a-minor CHORDS, but it is BRILLIANT for a-minor TUNE MELODIES. a-minor is the minor key that is all "white keys," i.e., the relative minor of C major, which is the "name row" of the b/c. you play a-minor all on the C row (unless for phrasing purposes you choose to "cross rows" for the E of the a-minor triad to the B row, which also has an E, in the opposite direction from the one on the C row. b/c was made for melody playing in a-minor.....there is a REASON why just about all the great b/c players feature ample a-minor tunes on their records....(similarly, C#/D is brill for b-minor, the relative minor of D. not a huge itm key, but check out andrew macnamara doing the Otter's Holt on his record "dawn," you'll see what I mean.)
[What about the likes of Johnny Connolly of Connemara who plays the one row melodeon? (in D?) He sounds pretty 'Irish' to my ears!]
johnny connolly of connemara also happens to be an electrifying b/c maestro. on melodeon, he is stuck with the D keys unless he wants to lug around multiple one-rows, as the cajuns have to. but he can and does burn down the house on b/c as well as on melodeon. same goes for the wonderul melodeon player bobby gardiner of clare (b/c and melodeon), same for brendan o'begley of kerry, also a c#/d wizard....then there is jackie daly, brilliant on c#/d, past senior AI winner on b/c, wizard on melodeon, exquisite on anglo concertina.....
, exquisite on anglo concertina....., that is an odd statement, he is excellent on C#D, he hardly ever plays Anglo, and IMO his recordings on Anglo ,which were made many years ago are not in the same league as his c#d playing.
[exquisite on anglo concertina....., that is an odd statement]
i didn't say his anglo playing was "in the same league" as his c#/d playing. i said he was an exquisite concertina player, which he is. his concertina style is very elegant and spare, yet extremely expressive, with wonderful lift and swing.
Bjorn, this "endless discussion about tunings" is really what I was asking for. It's all well and good to say that anything other than a bc box won't sound Irish, but what I was asking WHY? I may love a given player's sound or style, but not everyone announces in a concert or in liner notes or even at the pub what key their box is in. Newfoundland has no shortage of lethal box players, and the island is polluted with boxes in dg and cf. I was asking why, if a dg box has basically the same notes as a flute or uilleann pipes would everyone would instead play a seemingly less intuitive instrument. Explanations about different keys, basses, ornamentation and note layout are what gives semitone boxes the Irish sound are helpful. Snapping "it just is!" is not.
"Newfoundland has no shortage of lethal box players, and the island is polluted with boxes in dg and cf. "
Are we to understand that you are in Terre-Neuve? Without having been there (yet) I gather that quite a few up-and-comingly lethal NF players are adopting the C#/D system. Why don't you ask one of them why? (Graham Wells, Aaron Collis, etc.)
Actually the best thing you could do, if you can find someone obliging enough, is to borrow a semitone box for a week or ten days. If it's a C#/D, well you can explore that system. You can also explore B/C by pretending it's a B/C, and playing tunes in Emaj rather than Dmaj. And vice-versa.
Actually to explore the B/C I suggest you don't try D major fingering straight away. (Brain fry alert.) But try A minor instead, ensuring that you use the magic (duplicated) notes to best effect. You'll soon discover the attraction of "playing on the pull" - very few bellows changes, seductive flow, etc.
( After about 25 years the attraction will fade and like Mick Mulcahy, Noel Scott, Mairtin O Connor, Bobby Gardiner and others you'll go back to playing press and draw. )
Jeeves - No, unfortunately (or fortunately) I don't live there, but in Ontario but I did get to the Rock for a few weeks this summer and completely fell in love. I got to see a few great bands, sessions, and got to sit in on one with my whistle. One guy who played as good as I would ever hope to played a dg box, one guy who was incredible grumbled that his box plays in all keys and that was the end of it (narrows it down I suppose...). I even saw one hard-luck looking guy downtown who was belting out some unrecognizeable sound. When he stopped playing (we won't call it a tune...) he reached INTO his bellows through a hole in the top and took out his wallet and wandered into a diner for a coffee. You get all kinds I suppose....
BC vs GD boxes
BC vs GD boxes
Can anyone suggest what the inherent advantages are in playing a bc box (or c#d etc...) over a box in gd? I've read all sorts of comments like "start on a gd box, then when youve been at it for a while move on to the more difficult bc," or "gd doesnt really work too well for ITM." Right now I'm playing a drafty old thing in cf pretending it's in dg (the price was right...), but I'm feeling it might be soon time to upgrade to something a bit more airtight (and my wife is getting tired of tuning her fiddle down a whole step so we can play together). I don't really find much trouble making most of the tunes I've tried work, so what is all the hype about the bc boxes? why not in gd? Enlighten me.
# Posted on September 9th 2011 by cbw
Re: BC vs GD boxes
If "all sorts of comments" that you've read about B/C boxes seem to be "hype" to you then I think enlightenment is going to be illusive and perhaps even unecessary. Get a G/D.
# Posted on September 9th 2011 by ∅
Re: BC vs GD boxes
If it's working for you, it's a good instrument to play. The only inherent advantage I can see would be that the B/C has the F naturals, and there are a few tunes that really use those well, and are fun to play. (The Cook In the Kitchen, for example). There are also some tunes in A major that rock the G#.
I like the B/C layout myself, but I'm not going to tell anyone they have to like it too.
# Posted on September 9th 2011 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: BC vs GD boxes
with GD boxes, you can play in G and D, and relatives, but you don't have all the notes, apart from some models that have accidentals on the 2 top buttons, with which you can play some chromaticism, but it's awesomely tricky. Some players manage it very well though, just look at the basque trikitixa players like Kepa Junkera... the advantage is with the fact the left hand is adapted to the right, meaning you can play chords, on both hands, and use the box for accompaniment as well as melody. French, italians English use the GD system, some with great taste for ITM (Julian Sutton or Andy Cutting for instance). but most - like me ! use a 3-row, most of the time GD (or CF or AD or GC), with all the accidentals on the 3rd row. Heavier box, but, as I said, a lot of possibilities to use the instrument for backing as well as melody. With BC, you have all the notes on 2 rows, but you are limited with use of basses (I hear already some of you on this site saying "who cares, no need of basse for ITM...). Every instrument has its possibilities and limits... youe choice is either going on BC, and having to relearn all your fingerings, or getting a real DG a bit newer (boxes tend not to get better with age...). Teh music never depends on the instrument, it depends on the way it's played...
# Posted on September 9th 2011 by Nikita Pfister
Re: BC vs GD boxes
a B/C is fully chromatic whereas you have just two sharps on a D/G. D/Gs are perfect for morris music and other chordy english music but for Irish music I would go for a B/C or C#/D. the ornaments will sound more irish on a B/C
# Posted on September 9th 2011 by I ♥ Dow
Re: BC vs GD boxes
If you are inclined to opt for the chordy diatonic solution, but are a litlle concerned about the lack of accidentals, you might consider buying a three-row (A/D/G) box.
The additional sharp (G#) will give you the ability to play in AMaj and its related keys.
# Posted on September 9th 2011 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: BC vs GD boxes
DJF -'the ornaments will sound more irish on a B/C'
What about the likes of Johnny Connolly of Connemara who plays the one row melodeon? (in D?) He sounds pretty 'Irish' to my ears!
# Posted on September 9th 2011 by the wounded hussar
Re: BC vs GD boxes
what i meant was that rolls which use semi tones will sound more irish than what you'd get on a D/G. the one row style is completely different from the two row box style. Reading between the lines I think the OP is looking for a two row box.
# Posted on September 9th 2011 by I ♥ Dow
Re: BC vs GD boxes
DG works for me. Have tried BC but couldn't get on with it. BC does give better rolls as DJF pointed out, but if your only playing in mid-level sessions for fun does it really matter? Each to their own, I say.
# Posted on September 9th 2011 by Rudall the time
Re: BC vs GD boxes
The advantage of the gd is there are more alternatives for cross rowing, because there are more notes going the other direction which are the same, I think its five, The bc has 2.
the dga or 2 and a half row[ imo] is the best answer for fully chromatic playing, overall the chords are easier to play as well particularly in D.
Rolls can be played on aGD some find it easier with stepped fingering, check out Tim Edey or Cathy Cook orJim Bainbridge or Tony Hall.
# Posted on September 9th 2011 by Joseph Tailyour
Re: BC vs GD boxes
You can certainly play great Irish music on a D/G (not G/D, outer row comes first, as in B/C). The question is whether you want to be stuck to a limited range of keys (one or two sharps) - exactly what you can get on a keyless flute or D whistle. Good enough for lots of flute players, but not good enough for me (after years of playing a whistle).
What is the hype about B/C all about? Well, when you play B/C, you can aspire to sound like a top B/C player. There are plenty of great ones around to admire and emulate. Do any of them have the style and sound that really grabs you? If so, go for B/C. (Same goes for C#/D.)
I certainly would not recommend starting on D/G, getting up to speed on it, and then going over to B/C. You'll probably fry your brain and go back to D/G pronto. It's a different logic, at least for playing in D major. If you like B/C, start with it. If you like D/G, well, stick with it.
One great thing about semitone boxes (apart from the ability to play naff-sounding rolls with out-of-key lower grace notes) is not that they are truly chromatic (they aren't, for practical purposes). It's that you are never stuck for an accidental, and the accidental you are never stuck for is right where it needs to be, next to the rest of the action in the tune.
# Posted on September 9th 2011 by Jeeves Tones
Re: BC vs GD boxes
This topic has recently been discussed on Melodeon.net with some interesting comments so it might be worth a look there as well.
I have a BC which I am learning as a second instrument and chose this as I'm into Irish stuff, the muscians I like best tend to be mainly BC players - but if you are a fair way down the DG route then stick with that - Tim Edey plays brilliant music on his but then I think he could play anything well
# Posted on September 9th 2011 by Gromit
Re: BC vs GD boxes
Look at it this way....If you only want to play tunes on the one row in what is known as the 'Up and Down' method aka Melodion style of playing. That's fine assuming of course that the other players you might be playing with stick to tunes in G and D and those without an F natural.
My advice....learn the proper fingering for a B/C or a C#/D box and you'll have the world of accordion music at your fingertips, and you can avoid having to jump around like this.
http://youtu.be/Hauz1TvNBvQ
# Posted on September 9th 2011 by Free Reed
Re: BC vs GD boxes
Free Reed, you dont seem to understand the DG, It has more scope for across the row playing than the bc, it has more notes that are the same that are available in different directions, it is not just about playing straight up and down the rows, if the player wishes to play in A then the answer is a 2 and a half row dg, although some Atunes are possible on the DG, A mixolydian tunes are not a problem either.
ONE disadvantage of the the BC is it is NOT GOOD for playing a minor chords.
# Posted on September 9th 2011 by Joseph Tailyour
Re: BC vs GD boxes
the f natural problem can be overcome by playing a harmony note generally speaking the d works as a harmony note.
# Posted on September 9th 2011 by Joseph Tailyour
Re: BC vs GD boxes
WCB
That's why i went to the 2 1/2 row. But I am gettring a new 2 row.
Purity and all that. B/C quirks and all.
# Posted on September 9th 2011 by zippydw
Re: BC vs GD boxes
I started on the DG for six months before switching to the BC. I wanted to play pure drop Irish trad and at the time I thought:
- many more DVD tutors available for BC (important as there would be less than 5 Irish box players within 2000 km of me and no teachers)
- box players I admired played BC or another chromatic tuning
- the ornamentation DID sound more right to my ear than the DG.
- the overall sympathetic resonance of the BC sounds more minor/modal/sean-nos to me, and I prefer that
- the DG could easily sound English and morrisy, especially when using the basses, and I though that was a bit naff (I enjoy that stuff more now)
- I didn't like the feeling of being limited in the accidentals/modes I could use. The arguments like "it's fine because 80% of Irish tunes are in D or G, or a related mode" just didn't cover it.
I found the transition from one system to the other quite confusing and difficult for a fairly short time, but I'm glad I didn't leave it any later. Four years later, I've never regretted going to BC. The better I get, the more I like it. Very rarely I think I'd like to learn some non-Irish tunes on my DG, but I don't do it. Two fingering systems in my head will slow me down getting good on one.
What sort of music do you want to play, and how do you want it to sound?
# Posted on September 9th 2011 by Martin_BC
Re: BC vs GD boxes
I tried to write something earlier but it didn't seem to take, so try again...
but don't know much about them or Irish box playing, nor even have much recordings of them. I suppose it's a good excuse to go to Toronto or Ottawa and hang around in pubs looking for more box players!
Holy crud you folks are quick! Thanks for all the advice, opinions and comments. I don't come accross too many box players here in the bush in Ontario, and I came to the box kinda haphazzardly. I play whistle, and fiddle for a bit until I injured my left arm. I've always liked the sound of some box players (say Mick McAuley, not the jumping up and down guys!
# Posted on September 9th 2011 by cbw
Re: BC vs GD boxes
Mick McAuley - brilliant BC player - doubt if you could get that style of playing on a GD you might have to get a Grey Paolo though.
# Posted on September 9th 2011 by Gromit
Re: BC vs GD boxes
"I certainly would not recommend starting on D/G, getting up to speed on it, and then going over to B/C. You'll probably fry your brain and go back to D/G pronto..." (Jeeves Tones)
Nor would I, because that was exactly my own experience. I take it it was the same for Rudall the time. Don't underestimate the difficulty of changing from a system you've got used to to another one - unless you're as bright as a button.
I now play two-and-a-half row DG, which gives me the ability to play all sorts of tunes with accidentals - it's just that in the main I have to play them in the same base *keys* as before: D, G, A and the relevant minors.
But I'm happy with that, at any rate for now. I was never particularly eager to play, say, Dm or Gm reels in those keys on the new box, but I did want to play all manner of pop, light classical and suchlike, and playing these in D or G with accidentals suits me fine. Meanwhile, the G# note is the most valuable of the additions for trad, enabling me to do justice to those A major tunes that need it.
The DG is a box which, with its basses / cross-fingering possibilities / 'push' and 'pull' alternatives for certain notes, can make a real meal of tunes within its range, especially slow ones of any kind. But I always wanted to play tunes outside its range, and felt rather claustrophobic within it. That's one reason why I got the 2-1/2 row, the other being that I wanted a box with an altogether better action than my first one.
I've never played a DG with accidentals confined to the uppermost buttons on the right side. To me they look difficult to use in the course of fast tune playing, but I dare say necessity breeds curiously accomplishments. My first DG had no accidentals, and thus had all the more fruity chords...
# Posted on September 9th 2011 by nicholas
Re: BC vs GD boxes
("...curious accomplishments..."!)
# Posted on September 9th 2011 by nicholas
Re: BC vs GD boxes
I play BC box, but for a change of pace, I love playing tunes in C, single row style, with all those great double stops and chords you can throw in. Great for sea chantey accompaniment, among other things.
# Posted on September 10th 2011 by AlBrown
Re: BC vs GD boxes
Tim Edey manages to play a D/G-box and make it sound Irish. The rest of us are not him. Every well known player of Irish music on the diatonic accordeon plays B/C or C#/D (or in any case a semi-tone apart, or in rare and wonderful cases a one-row). Playing a D/G, G/C, C/F etc. box (and especially using the basses like you would on that type of box) will not produce anything that sounds real Irish dance music (unless you are Tim Edey). There´s really no need for this endless discussion about tunings.
# Posted on September 10th 2011 by Björn
Re: BC vs GD boxes
So spoke Bjorn, what is real irish?have a listen to Rose Murphy, playing a DG.
Bjorn, There is plenty of need for discussion, and by the way Tim Edey is from Kent in England
# Posted on September 10th 2011 by Joseph Tailyour
Re: BC vs GD boxes
I knew someone would say that, and I know full well that Tim Edey is English. But it's really not helpful to say to someone that wants to play Irish tunes on the box to play an instrument that´s not really suited to the music. And yes, I know about Rose Murphy, and yes you can play tunes on any bleedin instrument you want. Can you play Irish tunes on a 5 String banjo? Of course you can! It's not going to sound like on a tenor though. Any if you play a box in G/C, D/G or what have you, it's probably not going to sound like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P26i_g_RjE4
# Posted on September 10th 2011 by Björn
Re: BC vs GD boxes
g/d has more "magic notes," i.e., notes common to both rows, so you have the note in one row on the push, and in the other row on the pull. this way you can make choices about whether to play a given passage "on the row" so it is more a "back and forth" sound, or play it "across the rows" and get more smooth, flowing phrasing.
however, g/d gives you fewer key choices, because it is the notes in the key of G (one sharp, the others "white keys") plus the notes in the key of D, which is the same as G but for the added sharp, a C sharp you'll have on the D row where you'll have a C natural on the G row.
so....essentially, you are limited in your keys to D, G, A, and their relative minors.
with a semitone box, you get every accidental in the 12-tone universe, plus, if you have the internal stuffing to suck it up and learn the fingering, you can play in every damn key known to man, though many semitone players don't go there. for example, lots of c#/d players keep a b/c around so they can keep their "on the row" fingering for flat seshes.
n chatting up the pluses of b/c, i'm gonna skip over the roll-enabling features, because others have already covered it, plus, i don't give a damn about rolls. i think they're obnoxious-sounding on accordion. so here goes....if your choice was b/c, and you wanted to get this good, you could play "on the row" using your C row in all the wonderful east clare-ish, east galwayish C seshes, plus, you could play "on the row" using your B row in all the wonderful B seshes. Plus, you could play "across the rows" for D, A, G, and their relative minors, i.e., the "D row" keys that c#/d players play "on the row."
PLUS, if you wanted, you COULD additionally learn b-flat, e-flat, and a-flat, and play along with the Mulcahy Family records, and the Noel Hill records. it is counterintuitive. it is a pain in the keester. but it is doable.
and you COULD get ALL THIS in an adorable yet amazingly loud, and astoundingly compact and portable six/7-pound box, if you so chose.......
a couple comments on past comments:
[ONE disadvantage of the the BC is it is NOT GOOD for playing a minor chords.]....it may not be great for a-minor CHORDS, but it is BRILLIANT for a-minor TUNE MELODIES. a-minor is the minor key that is all "white keys," i.e., the relative minor of C major, which is the "name row" of the b/c. you play a-minor all on the C row (unless for phrasing purposes you choose to "cross rows" for the E of the a-minor triad to the B row, which also has an E, in the opposite direction from the one on the C row. b/c was made for melody playing in a-minor.....there is a REASON why just about all the great b/c players feature ample a-minor tunes on their records....(similarly, C#/D is brill for b-minor, the relative minor of D. not a huge itm key, but check out andrew macnamara doing the Otter's Holt on his record "dawn," you'll see what I mean.)
[What about the likes of Johnny Connolly of Connemara who plays the one row melodeon? (in D?) He sounds pretty 'Irish' to my ears!]
johnny connolly of connemara also happens to be an electrifying b/c maestro. on melodeon, he is stuck with the D keys unless he wants to lug around multiple one-rows, as the cajuns have to. but he can and does burn down the house on b/c as well as on melodeon. same goes for the wonderul melodeon player bobby gardiner of clare (b/c and melodeon), same for brendan o'begley of kerry, also a c#/d wizard....then there is jackie daly, brilliant on c#/d, past senior AI winner on b/c, wizard on melodeon, exquisite on anglo concertina.....
# Posted on September 10th 2011 by ceemonster
Re: BC vs GD boxes
, exquisite on anglo concertina....., that is an odd statement, he is excellent on C#D, he hardly ever plays Anglo, and IMO his recordings on Anglo ,which were made many years ago are not in the same league as his c#d playing.
# Posted on September 10th 2011 by Joseph Tailyour
Re: BC vs GD boxes
[exquisite on anglo concertina....., that is an odd statement]
i didn't say his anglo playing was "in the same league" as his c#/d playing. i said he was an exquisite concertina player, which he is. his concertina style is very elegant and spare, yet extremely expressive, with wonderful lift and swing.
# Posted on September 11th 2011 by ceemonster
Re: BC vs GD boxes
I'm learning a nice tune right now:
Dots - http://breqwas.net/breqwas/link/moving_clouds.png
Music - http://breqwas.net/breqwas/link/07%20-%20The%20Moving%20Cloud_The%20Skylark.mp3
You won't be able to play this tune on a G/D box.
# Posted on September 11th 2011 by breqwas
Re: BC vs GD boxes
Why not?
# Posted on September 11th 2011 by Paul_draper
Re: BC vs GD boxes
Bjorn, this "endless discussion about tunings" is really what I was asking for. It's all well and good to say that anything other than a bc box won't sound Irish, but what I was asking WHY? I may love a given player's sound or style, but not everyone announces in a concert or in liner notes or even at the pub what key their box is in. Newfoundland has no shortage of lethal box players, and the island is polluted with boxes in dg and cf. I was asking why, if a dg box has basically the same notes as a flute or uilleann pipes would everyone would instead play a seemingly less intuitive instrument. Explanations about different keys, basses, ornamentation and note layout are what gives semitone boxes the Irish sound are helpful. Snapping "it just is!" is not.
# Posted on September 12th 2011 by cbw
Re: BC vs GD boxes
Get a Roland button box, then you can play D/G, B/C,C#D to your hearts content, all on one box, and configure your own basses.
Simples
(or learn to play anglo exquisitely)
# Posted on September 12th 2011 by geoffwright
Re: BC vs GD boxes
"Newfoundland has no shortage of lethal box players, and the island is polluted with boxes in dg and cf. "
)
Are we to understand that you are in Terre-Neuve? Without having been there (yet) I gather that quite a few up-and-comingly lethal NF players are adopting the C#/D system. Why don't you ask one of them why? (Graham Wells, Aaron Collis, etc.)
Actually the best thing you could do, if you can find someone obliging enough, is to borrow a semitone box for a week or ten days. If it's a C#/D, well you can explore that system. You can also explore B/C by pretending it's a B/C, and playing tunes in Emaj rather than Dmaj. And vice-versa.
Actually to explore the B/C I suggest you don't try D major fingering straight away. (Brain fry alert.) But try A minor instead, ensuring that you use the magic (duplicated) notes to best effect. You'll soon discover the attraction of "playing on the pull" - very few bellows changes, seductive flow, etc.
( After about 25 years the attraction will fade and like Mick Mulcahy, Noel Scott, Mairtin O Connor, Bobby Gardiner and others you'll go back to playing press and draw.
# Posted on September 12th 2011 by Jeeves Tones
Re: BC vs GD boxes
Jeeves - No, unfortunately (or fortunately) I don't live there, but in Ontario but I did get to the Rock for a few weeks this summer and completely fell in love. I got to see a few great bands, sessions, and got to sit in on one with my whistle. One guy who played as good as I would ever hope to played a dg box, one guy who was incredible grumbled that his box plays in all keys and that was the end of it (narrows it down I suppose...). I even saw one hard-luck looking guy downtown who was belting out some unrecognizeable sound. When he stopped playing (we won't call it a tune...) he reached INTO his bellows through a hole in the top and took out his wallet and wandered into a diner for a coffee. You get all kinds I suppose....
# Posted on September 12th 2011 by cbw