depends how good the luthier is and how good are the instruments he makes, how does his marketing is.
look at Freshwater he has lost his struggle with rececion.
The people I've known (and know) who are/have been instrument makers (and I personally know several luthiers, a couple of flutemakers, a concertina maker, a guitar maker plus god knows how many bodhrán makers ...
Well, for most of them, apart from the last category above who seem to make a fortune for nothing really , they can't really make a living making instruments. A lot of them are obsessed, so they'll only make them; they won't trade in them. The ones who take in repair work, on instruments other than the ones they've made, as well as making instruments themselves, seem to make a reasonable, but not substantial living.
To really make money, you have to trade in instruments, I think. And then it's a question of being bold, I think. Buying something when you see it, and selling it at as much markup as you can. Because it won't happen every time. A friend of mine makes a very good living, travelling round the world, going to auctions in the States, in the UK, in Australia, and anywhere else that there are violins, setting the things up properly and selling them for a good markup, mainly to America and Japan. These days I gather it's mainly the latter. Oh, I forgot, he spends a lot of time in Korea and South America as well for some reason.
I see the same thing as others above--if the instrument maker also does repairs, sells strings, hosts lessons, etc, etc, and is good at marketing and promotion, they might be able to survive, as long as they have a spouse with a good paying job and health care insurance. But it can be as hard as or harder than being a full time musician.
Why don't you give it a try for awhile? If you were able to save enough to keep you going for a couple of years, you could find out if you can make a living either making instruments or being a profession musician. Then you'd know if you are able to make a living at these things. Besides, if you're bored in your job, what do you have to lose? Take a chance. See what you find. Good luck.
Work it out for yourself -- take a figure that you consider to be 'a good living' , divide it by the price of an instrument and decide whether you could make that many in a year. Or alternatively, decide how many you could make in a year and calculate how much you would have to charge for each. Whichever way you do it, it won't be enough.
Don't give up, Kess! Know your abilities as well as your limits & find the best starting place. Maybe, here ...
Cigarbox Mandolin, selfmade DIY..... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EhdVS8uNgBY
I think my father used to say "A third for materials, a third for labour, and a third for profit." More recently I heard from one of the alumni of the musical instrument course at what was The London College of Furniture, now part of the University of the Arts, I understand. They were taught how to earn a living from building/making instruments; basically you have to charge three times what it has cost you to make the instrument. That's TWICE what my father used to say, isn't it ?
So; how much will it cost you in materials and labour to make an instrument ? Then remember you aren't allowing for the heating, lighting, rent, all the time the instrument is sitting there not being sold yet, etc.........
If I need work down on one of my instruments I remember to button my lip when I think the charges are exorbitant. No they're not, you paying for all the intangibles including all the workers' experience.
Think twice before you take this step.
'That's TWICE what my father used to say, isn't it ?'
Course, it depends too on how you sell your product - direct sales to the punter will yield the best return but if you want retail shops or online stores to buy in larger quantities and help you sell them, well they'll have their (substantial) markup as well. Most small businesses might like to sell direct but the best overall return is probably a mixture of direct and trade sales.
However, one of the advantages of making instruments is that if you are good, your instruments will sell. Not like making music, where being good is completely irrelevant.
"However, one of the advantages of making instruments is that if you are good, your instruments will sell. Not like making music, where being good is completely irrelevant."
So why did Joseph Guarneri del Gesu resort to being an innkeeper, with his fiddles (which didn't sell well) being made as a sideline?
I managed to scrape a living as a luthier for many years, but needed to involve many sidelines (including playing) to continue. It's not something I'd readily recommend.
Certainly, it would be a good idea to enrol in a course or similar. If the bug takes hold, you won't likely be asking the question again.
Bearing all the above in mind, let's hear it for those dedicated luthiers who do carry on and make beautiful instruments that improve with age.
Possibly the world's most renowned mandolin maker (Gibson-style at least) lives not too far from where I grew up. He lives comfortably doing work that he loves but I understand that he's made less than 1000 instruments in his 30-odd year career, and that an instrument that he sold for $5000 can fetch $25,000 on the 2nd hand market without a penny going to him.
They could do with some football-style transfer-price rules!
the simple answer to that one is that the price the instrument was originally sold for is irrelevant. If a second hand one goes for $25,000 then he can charge $25,000 for a new one.
All this information is great, and with it, we can only hope that Kess doesn't get bored at work today.....
To make a living (on your own) you first need to find the people who have money and secondly work out how you're going to extract it from them on a regular basis.
The problem with musicians is that they don't tend to meet the first criteria above.
"the simple answer to that one is that the price the instrument was originally sold for is irrelevant. If a second hand one goes for $25,000 then he can charge $25,000 for a new one"
That is indeed a simple answer - he can't charge that until the price has gone up, and he can't hang on to stock very long in the hope that it does, if he's to make a living.
He does indeed charge $20,000+ these days for certain special edition instruments (maybe one every two years) but I believe his standard price is around $7500 nowadays. Four x $7500 = $30,000 a year before subtracting materials and labour, which is not exactly rolling in clover.
Anyway, my point is not so much about the unfairness of life but that one should not be misled as to the profitability of the business by looking at resale prices.
Is it fair to say that most people soon give up on the idea of making a living from doing something you love? Fair play to those who do not give up on that idea!
"Is it fair to say that most people soon give up on the idea of making a living from doing something you love? Fair play to those who do not give up on that idea"
I enjoy my work, but I wouldn't do it if I weren't paid. I enjoy playing music, but I didn't really enjoy the process of doing it for pay.
If I were better with wood, I might try my hand at luthierie, but I can look at the economics of the thing as well as anyone: enormous material cost, enormous equipment cost, completely unscalable business model (it takes you just as much time to make the 1000th mandolin as it did to make the 500th), enormous investment of time and material in learning the trade....
I'm glad there are lunatics in this world, or we wouldn't have the great instruments we can get. Me, I'd do it as a hobby if I did it at all.
I’ve known five luthiers, from their early days onward – 30-35 years. They all still build instruments, but only one does it full-time and makes a decent living. His guitars start at $8000+, so he’s doing okay, but he also dabbles in real estate as a backup. One of the others told me (around ten years ago) that, if he works as fast and efficiently as he can, he can make about $13 per hour. If you figure in time to run the business, a little rest time, a short vacation, occasioinal sick days, slack time with no orders, etc., it’s about the same income as an entry level, unskilled retail job. And that's the optimistic view.
Do it if you find you love it and you’re good at it, but don’t plan on making a living at it. You probably won’t.
I wonder if the whole process of trying to make a living at something you love, and then failing, makes you come to hate what you loved? Just sayin'...
No, it makes you hate all those unappreciative people who don't value what you do, the entertainment industry for ignoring traditional music and society in general for not making it possible for you to earn a living doing what you want.
My mate who makes a very good living playing and writing music had a simpler answer to the question:
"What motivates you in this difficult business?"
A. "I can't do anything else."
So no room for failure there. I think that having failure as an option is a cosy, closeted, middle class, western, paranoid luxury that holds many people back from success in many avenues.
LOL!
The question is wrong. There is no "living" to be made. A life on the other hand .. well maybe if it IS your life.
This "living" thing is a political concept .. it has to do with money and advantage - you can't make music or musical instruments (or live the life you have) in that frame of reference.
I worked at Flatiron Mandolins when they were just starting--I was the second employee hired. The pay was low but I learned a lot and gained skills that are hard to come by otherwise.
I earn a reasonable income teaching music lessons, but no where near the payscale I've enjoyed as a writer or policy analyst. For most people, music is an elective, a hobby. When money gets tight, they cut back or quit taking lessons, buying instruments, going to concerts, buying cds. So working on the "supply" side offers less consistent income and long-term stability than most jobs.
Ok then make a living making instruments? :)
Ok then make a living making instruments?
Ok then,
Still bored in work, how hard is it to make a living making instruments?
I'm thinking of mandolins/mandolas and bouzoukis?
# Posted on September 5th 2011 by Kess
Re: Ok then make a living making instruments?
depends how good the luthier is and how good are the instruments he makes, how does his marketing is.
look at Freshwater he has lost his struggle with rececion.
# Posted on September 5th 2011 by padre
Re: Ok then make a living making instruments?
The people I've known (and know) who are/have been instrument makers (and I personally know several luthiers, a couple of flutemakers, a concertina maker, a guitar maker plus god knows how many bodhrán makers ...
, they can't really make a living making instruments. A lot of them are obsessed, so they'll only make them; they won't trade in them. The ones who take in repair work, on instruments other than the ones they've made, as well as making instruments themselves, seem to make a reasonable, but not substantial living.
Well, for most of them, apart from the last category above who seem to make a fortune for nothing really
To really make money, you have to trade in instruments, I think. And then it's a question of being bold, I think. Buying something when you see it, and selling it at as much markup as you can. Because it won't happen every time. A friend of mine makes a very good living, travelling round the world, going to auctions in the States, in the UK, in Australia, and anywhere else that there are violins, setting the things up properly and selling them for a good markup, mainly to America and Japan. These days I gather it's mainly the latter. Oh, I forgot, he spends a lot of time in Korea and South America as well for some reason.
# Posted on September 5th 2011 by ethical blend
Re: Ok then make a living making instruments?
Look at the questions on here. Nobody's asking "Where can I get an *expensive* mandolin/mandola .?"
Such things are generally considered luxury or discretionary items, and there's not a lot of cash around for those these days.
# Posted on September 5th 2011 by Bren
Re: Ok then make a living making instruments?
I see the same thing as others above--if the instrument maker also does repairs, sells strings, hosts lessons, etc, etc, and is good at marketing and promotion, they might be able to survive, as long as they have a spouse with a good paying job and health care insurance. But it can be as hard as or harder than being a full time musician.
# Posted on September 5th 2011 by AlBrown
Re: Ok then make a living making instruments?
Why don't you give it a try for awhile? If you were able to save enough to keep you going for a couple of years, you could find out if you can make a living either making instruments or being a profession musician. Then you'd know if you are able to make a living at these things. Besides, if you're bored in your job, what do you have to lose? Take a chance. See what you find. Good luck.
# Posted on September 5th 2011 by John Culhane
Re: Ok then make a living making instruments?
Work it out for yourself -- take a figure that you consider to be 'a good living' , divide it by the price of an instrument and decide whether you could make that many in a year. Or alternatively, decide how many you could make in a year and calculate how much you would have to charge for each. Whichever way you do it, it won't be enough.
# Posted on September 5th 2011 by gam
Re: Ok then make a living making instruments?
When you decide be sure & post the opening for your job. I'm sure there are a few musicians onsite looking for additional income.
# Posted on September 5th 2011 by Batgirl has left the GPL ;)
Re: Ok then make a living making instruments?
Don't forget to calculate the price for certain types of wood.
# Posted on September 5th 2011 by Batgirl has left the GPL ;)
Re: Ok then make a living making instruments?
Do you actually know how to build instruments now? Very steep learing curve if you don't.
# Posted on September 6th 2011 by Steve L
Re: Ok then make a living making instruments?
"divide it by the price of an instrument"
profit after materials cost would be the important number, I'd think.
# Posted on September 6th 2011 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Ok then make a living making instruments?
Don't give up, Kess! Know your abilities as well as your limits & find the best starting place. Maybe, here ...
Cigarbox Mandolin, selfmade DIY.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EhdVS8uNgBY
# Posted on September 6th 2011 by Batgirl has left the GPL ;)
Re: Ok then make a living making instruments?
I think my father used to say "A third for materials, a third for labour, and a third for profit." More recently I heard from one of the alumni of the musical instrument course at what was The London College of Furniture, now part of the University of the Arts, I understand. They were taught how to earn a living from building/making instruments; basically you have to charge three times what it has cost you to make the instrument. That's TWICE what my father used to say, isn't it ?
So; how much will it cost you in materials and labour to make an instrument ? Then remember you aren't allowing for the heating, lighting, rent, all the time the instrument is sitting there not being sold yet, etc.........
If I need work down on one of my instruments I remember to button my lip when I think the charges are exorbitant. No they're not, you paying for all the intangibles including all the workers' experience.
Think twice before you take this step.
# Posted on September 6th 2011 by Guernsey Pete
... or Reduce, Reuse, & Recycle ;)
http://www.joecraven.com/Joe_Craven/_TOOL_BOX_.html
# Posted on September 6th 2011 by Batgirl has left the GPL ;)
Re: Ok then make a living making instruments?
One could settle for being a luthier, or a piano builder, or a pipemaker.
But why aim low?
Reach for the heights -
SPOONMAKER!!
# Posted on September 6th 2011 by Piece
Re: Ok then make a living making instruments?
The old joke I've heard is -
The best way to make a small fortune as a luthier is to start with a large one.
# Posted on September 6th 2011 by jimtowat
Re: Ok then make a living making instruments?
'That's TWICE what my father used to say, isn't it ?'
Course, it depends too on how you sell your product - direct sales to the punter will yield the best return but if you want retail shops or online stores to buy in larger quantities and help you sell them, well they'll have their (substantial) markup as well. Most small businesses might like to sell direct but the best overall return is probably a mixture of direct and trade sales.
# Posted on September 6th 2011 by the wounded hussar
Re: Ok then make a living making instruments?
However, one of the advantages of making instruments is that if you are good, your instruments will sell. Not like making music, where being good is completely irrelevant.
# Posted on September 6th 2011 by ...
Re: Ok then make a living making instruments?
"However, one of the advantages of making instruments is that if you are good, your instruments will sell. Not like making music, where being good is completely irrelevant."
So why did Joseph Guarneri del Gesu resort to being an innkeeper, with his fiddles (which didn't sell well) being made as a sideline?
I managed to scrape a living as a luthier for many years, but needed to involve many sidelines (including playing) to continue. It's not something I'd readily recommend.
Certainly, it would be a good idea to enrol in a course or similar. If the bug takes hold, you won't likely be asking the question again.
# Posted on September 6th 2011 by Weejie
Re: Ok then make a living making instruments?
Bearing all the above in mind, let's hear it for those dedicated luthiers who do carry on and make beautiful instruments that improve with age.
Possibly the world's most renowned mandolin maker (Gibson-style at least) lives not too far from where I grew up. He lives comfortably doing work that he loves but I understand that he's made less than 1000 instruments in his 30-odd year career, and that an instrument that he sold for $5000 can fetch $25,000 on the 2nd hand market without a penny going to him.
They could do with some football-style transfer-price rules!
# Posted on September 6th 2011 by Bren
Re: Ok then make a living making instruments?
the simple answer to that one is that the price the instrument was originally sold for is irrelevant. If a second hand one goes for $25,000 then he can charge $25,000 for a new one.
# Posted on September 6th 2011 by ...
Re: Ok then make a living making instruments?
... and if he makes four a year he's doing OK
# Posted on September 6th 2011 by ...
Re: Ok then make a living making instruments?
All this information is great, and with it, we can only hope that Kess doesn't get bored at work today.....
To make a living (on your own) you first need to find the people who have money and secondly work out how you're going to extract it from them on a regular basis.
The problem with musicians is that they don't tend to meet the first criteria above.
# Posted on September 6th 2011 by Theirlandais
Re: Ok then make a living making instruments?
Theirlandais is right. Why not make guns instead?
# Posted on September 6th 2011 by Janek
Re: Ok then make a living making instruments?
"the simple answer to that one is that the price the instrument was originally sold for is irrelevant. If a second hand one goes for $25,000 then he can charge $25,000 for a new one"
That is indeed a simple answer - he can't charge that until the price has gone up, and he can't hang on to stock very long in the hope that it does, if he's to make a living.
He does indeed charge $20,000+ these days for certain special edition instruments (maybe one every two years) but I believe his standard price is around $7500 nowadays. Four x $7500 = $30,000 a year before subtracting materials and labour, which is not exactly rolling in clover.
Anyway, my point is not so much about the unfairness of life but that one should not be misled as to the profitability of the business by looking at resale prices.
# Posted on September 6th 2011 by Bren
Re: Ok then make a living making instruments?
Is it fair to say that most people soon give up on the idea of making a living from doing something you love? Fair play to those who do not give up on that idea!
# Posted on September 6th 2011 by harmonic miner
Re: Ok then make a living making instruments?
Learn to do what you love, or learn to love what you do. :-|
# Posted on September 6th 2011 by Bren
Re: Ok then make a living making instruments?
I love playing music. But I feckin hated doing it for a living
# Posted on September 6th 2011 by ...
Re: Ok then make a living making instruments?
... and after I'd packed it in ... I could afford a decent instrument
# Posted on September 6th 2011 by ...
Re: Ok then make a living making instruments?
Combine instrument making with being a pro musician!
# Posted on September 6th 2011 by c.g.
Re: Ok then make a living making instruments?
"Is it fair to say that most people soon give up on the idea of making a living from doing something you love? Fair play to those who do not give up on that idea"
I enjoy my work, but I wouldn't do it if I weren't paid. I enjoy playing music, but I didn't really enjoy the process of doing it for pay.
If I were better with wood, I might try my hand at luthierie, but I can look at the economics of the thing as well as anyone: enormous material cost, enormous equipment cost, completely unscalable business model (it takes you just as much time to make the 1000th mandolin as it did to make the 500th), enormous investment of time and material in learning the trade....
I'm glad there are lunatics in this world, or we wouldn't have the great instruments we can get. Me, I'd do it as a hobby if I did it at all.
# Posted on September 6th 2011 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Ok then make a living making instruments?
I’ve known five luthiers, from their early days onward – 30-35 years. They all still build instruments, but only one does it full-time and makes a decent living. His guitars start at $8000+, so he’s doing okay, but he also dabbles in real estate as a backup. One of the others told me (around ten years ago) that, if he works as fast and efficiently as he can, he can make about $13 per hour. If you figure in time to run the business, a little rest time, a short vacation, occasioinal sick days, slack time with no orders, etc., it’s about the same income as an entry level, unskilled retail job. And that's the optimistic view.
Do it if you find you love it and you’re good at it, but don’t plan on making a living at it. You probably won’t.
# Posted on September 6th 2011 by Bob himself
Re: Ok then make a living making instruments?
I wonder if the whole process of trying to make a living at something you love, and then failing, makes you come to hate what you loved? Just sayin'...
# Posted on September 6th 2011 by Mark Harmer
Re: Ok then make a living making instruments?
No, it makes you hate all those unappreciative people who don't value what you do, the entertainment industry for ignoring traditional music and society in general for not making it possible for you to earn a living doing what you want.
# Posted on September 7th 2011 by c.g.
Re: Ok then make a living making instruments?
My mate who makes a very good living playing and writing music had a simpler answer to the question:
"What motivates you in this difficult business?"
A. "I can't do anything else."
So no room for failure there. I think that having failure as an option is a cosy, closeted, middle class, western, paranoid luxury that holds many people back from success in many avenues.
# Posted on September 7th 2011 by ...
Re: Ok then make a living making instruments?
LOL!
The question is wrong. There is no "living" to be made. A life on the other hand .. well maybe if it IS your life.
This "living" thing is a political concept .. it has to do with money and advantage - you can't make music or musical instruments (or live the life you have) in that frame of reference.
# Posted on September 12th 2011 by Mozle
Re: Ok then make a living making instruments?
I worked at Flatiron Mandolins when they were just starting--I was the second employee hired. The pay was low but I learned a lot and gained skills that are hard to come by otherwise.
I earn a reasonable income teaching music lessons, but no where near the payscale I've enjoyed as a writer or policy analyst. For most people, music is an elective, a hobby. When money gets tight, they cut back or quit taking lessons, buying instruments, going to concerts, buying cds. So working on the "supply" side offers less consistent income and long-term stability than most jobs.
# Posted on September 12th 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: Ok then make a living making instruments?
"Imagine all the people living for today."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFHUxCudN6w
# Posted on September 19th 2011 by Batgirl has left the GPL ;)
Re: Ok then make a living making instruments?
Yeah, but I'd say that bloke was a bit of a dreamer.
# Posted on September 19th 2011 by ...
Re: Ok then make a living making instruments?
momentarily lapse, I'll try to get back on-topic ~
"Money (That's What I Want)"
Stevie Wonder
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XsyT3Tqe7VI
# Posted on September 20th 2011 by Batgirl has left the GPL ;)