While I've been playing in sessiuns since I was about 10 the "rules of the sessiun" have always remained a mystery to me. If you are new to a sessiun (meaning 1st time there) how long do ya sit out before you "intrude"? Or, if there have been say 3 or 4 tunes run off in a row is it wrong for the "new guy" to tack on another 3 or 4 tunes at the end without announcing it? Is it rude to show up and play in the nude? Should one feel insecure about the size of everyone else's instruments? Just a few questions that I never get an answer to. Thank you.
1) Define "intrude".
2) Use your best judgement. You'll soon know if your judgement needs biffing up.
3) Are you as devastatingly attractive with clothes off as with clothes on? If not, yes, or perhaps it's time to cut you off at the bar, or everyone should chip in and buy you a new full length mirror...
4) Only men worry about that kind of thing.
You're welcome.
I've just always waited for the break in between tunes and said something along the lines of "hey I'm me, nice ta meet ya, what's the rules?" That's a bit basic, but that's pretty much how I've always done it. Of course I've only been to about 18 different sessions now though. So go figure.
Everyone's always been very friendly and usually it's been one of a few ways... stick out your foot to end the tune on the next "BB" of the current tune OR in some cases, you just jump in to the current set being played and stick out your foot to note you're taking over the next tune for everyone to follow... or it's everyone takes a turn and calls out what tune, or set they'd like to play and off everyone goes with them.
(The last one is the way our local hoolie goes)
But as I said, I would think simply asking would be the way to go. Nobody's ever taken offense to any session I've ever been to! Just lots of smiling faces and hey how ya doins-nice ta meet ya join-on ins.
After a while you start to realize that in any music competition (but particularly in Irish music) you are the subject to any particular person's opinion on any given day. I have been on both ends where I have competed in and judged Fleadh's and I really have a dislike for both now. Who am I (or anyone else for that matter) to tell someone how they should play a certain piece? The music itself is so open for individual expression that it's almost a crime to judge what's right and wrong. No two person's should be playing the tunes exactly the same. The problem I have found is that certain people who are very opinionated about the music are locked in to one style or another thus, smothering the very growth of the music itself. Now it's relatively easy to judge the technical aspect of Irish Music (whether you can hit the notes, stay in time, keep good tone, the additiion of grace notes/variations and what have you) but there comes a point where the musicians are so close technically that personal tastes have to come into play....and that's just not fair. Live and let live is what I say and enjoy the music for what it is.
I'm curious, what's the current status of Comhaltas, how's it perceived by the trad scene, as opposed to Irish society at large?
I only ask because I've seen CCE criticised on a number of mailing lists and discussion forums, but I can't quite tell if the trad-playing world is really becoming disenchanted enough with the way competitions are run (or the fact that they exist) in particular, and the organisation in general.
Is anyone seriously lobbying to overhaul the system?
I believe that more people have been "discouraged" by those who are of the opinion that the music should be played a certain way. I don't think that that it was ever the CCE's intention to have this happen but those who run the show have let this happen. This isn't classical music folks,. Irish music is a living, breathing animal that thrives on variety....it's what makes it different than any other music in the world. You can have players from 4 different regions play the same tune and have almost four different versions of it. That's why it's so exciting. I say F*** the powers that be and we all try to live in one musical utopia where we all jam and drink beer.
i had heard negative reports too but I've been to a couple of Comhaltas sessions here in Dublin recently and one thing i can vouch for is that the musos are very welcoming with absolutely no overt snobbery re. instruments, ability or age. Great craic, and chat.
I'd recommend a visit to anyone.
Well, we've been back and forth over this quite a bit, since we have lots of people who compete here, lots of people who are allergic to competing here, and so on. What we generally come up with is that it's fine to compete if you like and fine to not compete if you don't.
Turlach Boylan once wrote that he thinks that "musicians don't like music. We spend so many years trying to develop a very particular style and end up with very narrow tastes."
One person's standards are another person's snobbery. I enjoy all kinds of music, but have definite views on what I want my own particular brand of music to sound like and what I'll allow it to be influenced by...and if that makes me a snob, then so be it.
In the overall scheme of things you are correct Bowhand but I wouldn't say that a "title" helped me either. Way back when I practiced 3 hours a day I wouldn't say I "enjoyed" it. I was a kid. Sure I kept playing that much because I was seeing an end result...might have been a different story had the results been different. It turns out that I still gave it up for over 10 years (something that I regret totally). What I'm trying to say is that as I am getting older I think that while theer may be a place for competition it overall hurts younger players who are just starting out. This isn't a sport...it's more important to nurture younger players than it is to try to figure out who's bettr than who. And I'm actually going to take that part of my bio out. It just don't matter. Now who wants to play a reel?
Before I went to Ireland for the first time I sought advice on how to approach a session. I was told that I should take my instrument with me but to refuse three offers to join before sticking my neck out. I didn't listen very well because I thought I'd never get to play in a session with that approach. The first time I got In a session was after one invitation, and I made a mess of it, somewhat to the embarassment of the invitor. Each visit I am humbled by the quality of music I am hearing so now I just listen, (I've even stopped recording), and when I come home I use that inspiration to improve my playing. Not that I haven't played in asession since then, but I listen along time before committing myself. What can I add? or will I spoil something that is already very nice thank you?
Better to be silent and thought a beginner, than get out your instrument and prove it.
My Dad used to tell me that at partys thrown by his parents in Dublin, someone might be asked to sing a song. "Oh, no! I just couldn't" would be the first response. Then, "I really don't have a very good singing voice" when asked the second time. When asked the third time, the response was: "well.... ok. But I'll have to get my music from the car."
I would be a little wary of the credentials of the competition judges - is an adjudicator hearing competing fiddle players a superb player of that instrument and highly regarded as a musician, not just as a judge?
I suppose one positive thing about performing in a competition is that it helps the player to project the tone of the instrument - not much of this aspect is made in traditional teaching. It does have its advantages (aside from solo performance), eg a session leader playing so he can be heard and lead shy others......in a noisy pub etc.....
It's funny, Jim, but I don't think a lot of musicians learn to project tone through competitive endeavour. For example, fleadh competitions are often held in community centres or schools where competitive venues are spacious and tiled, thus acoustically benefical to even the meek or uninformed!
Well, part of the whole Irish stepdancing thing are the feisianna. Most of our kids and adults have very good attitudes about competing. We are always happy when they want to compete and just as happy with them if they don't. They get to see kids from other schools who they only see at a feis; they of course love it when they get medals, but none of our kids are, I hope, so focused on winning that the personal rewards of working at something so hard are benefits that go unseen if they don't place.
We've had several incidents where a child who didn't place has been gifted with medals from another dancing friend who placed, so they could have something to take home as a keepsake from a feis. I like knowing that the kids think it's fun to have medals but that the fun is more important than the placing. I think most of our kids know that we as their teachers expect them to see their dancing as a different thing from the competition.
Certainly, all of my students know that I hate competing myself and was always extremely nervous before stepping onto the floor, but they also know that I did it for me to see if I could get over my own fears.
Anyway, we always tell them that whether they place or not is not nearly so important as whether they competed well with themselves. They're never competing with the other dancers, we tell them. I had a student who was ecstatic when she finally managed to get through her steps during a competition -- previous to that she'd always been so nervous that halfway through she would completely forget her steps. The first time she made it through her reel steps at a feis, a fellow dancer gave her the first place medal won in their competition because she was also so happy for her. I was extremely proud of both of them.
This has been a pretty rambly thread. Thank goodness I have a lot of opinions!
Sessions are for fun and making music with people you like, moderately tolerate or can publicly contain your distaste for. Fleadheanna are for practicing a certain set of tunes to their death, knowing more hornpipes than vitally necessary, spending thousands of dollars/euro on plane flights, hotel rooms, bad food and illicit beer just to have some old man grouch at you in hopes that you win a title that, in the chance you produce a solo album some time in your future, will grace said album with a one-line blurb.
But kids? Kids need fleadheanna like they need feiseanna. They're not going to seriously practice unless you entice them with some hardware. There's nothing wrong with that; it's just that at some point, adult musicians begin reaping more benefits than hardware--a social life (or lack thereof), friends (or lack thereof) and personal life satisfaction (or lack thereof). Comhaltas puts out quite a bit of money trying to convince everyone that those things aren't good enough. Comhaltas, or the Comhaltas musicians I have met, would have you believe that to be a good musician requires you to compete and place in a fleadh. That's all kinds of crap.
The magazine is crap, too. Does anyone actually design that behemoth or do they just type in 'disastrous colour scheme' into a computer program and see what vomits forth? Maybe I should start a new thread about Treoir.
At least Comhaltas encourages people to be moderately clothed at all times. And I agree with that.
Oh, and BTW, I don't necessarily agree with all that. I think anytime you make a sweeping generalization (and we *all* know that *all* generalizations are *all* wrong!), it's tempting to start talking in black and whites. Many of our kids practice very hard without ever competing, and many of our students, adults and kids alike, absolutely love competing at feisianna whether they place or not (although they do love it when they place) since, to them, a feisianna IS a social event more than a competition.
What of all the adult musicians who win All-Irelands? They obviously havn't a life. They'd rather practice a limited number of tunes to the detriment of their general musicianship. Rather than eat breakfast, they practice their (competition) tunes. Rather than have dinner or tea, they practice their tunes. Unfortunately, these endeavours cannot be reconcilled with their general standard of musicianship. Secretly, you see, they're "crap". They might give a virtuoso performance at the fleadh but we know their walking a musical tight rope. We know they'll eventually fall to the mediocre standards below from which they *truely* belong!
Oh begod, but the fleadh is all right for kids though *Ho-Hum*
Thanks. Kids don't _need_ fleadhs, but they're pretty darn good incentives. Not just for the competition aspect but for the fun aspect, too. Fleadhs give kids access to the social side of music before they have cars and autonomy. Once they have those things and are considered 'grown-ups' then the fleadh is less necessary for the social aspect of music.
Mmph. No fleadhs in California either, I guess there's one in Arizona that the diehards can pursue.
I think suky's previous post about fleadhs and practicing tunes to death is much closer to the mark. There's a lot of people who do well at competitions but who probably have never seen the fun side of what they're doing. Certainly modern step dancing is a far cry from sean nos dance. I've never been able to reconcile the total freedom of the music with the regimented, rigid posture of the dance, but finally I figured out that this is not the correct comparison; the modern step dancing milieu really doesn't have any connection to the vibrant, vital dance music.
A lot of the young kids I've seen winning at fiddle contests would be completely lost in an average session; they learned their two good tunes note for note and haven't got a clue about anything else. They're like classical orchestra players who read sheet-music and never learn the meaning of the word "improvise." (That was me, twenty years ago...) They're completely unequipped for actually contributing to the fun and *life* of the musical tradition they are supposedly participating in.
Ah... "Gee, you were pretty sloppy going thru that line." "I know, but hey, we're just doing this for fun, right?"
Don't ever try to run a performing group with members with attitudes like that. Gawd.... Yes, I'm doing this for fun too, my day job is something completely different. But if it sounds like crap, then it's no longer fun for me...
Over the last year or so one or two people (one of whom isn't a playing musician but is influential in ITM in other ways) have suggested that I enter a fleadh in Ireland - for fun(!).
No way! Leaving aside the inconsequential fact that I don't consider myself anywhere near competent enough for fleadh standard, to me music competitions and exams are the very antithesis of fun. I had more than my fill of them when I was playing classical cello in my teens, and it's a wonder that it didn't put me off playing music for life. I think it was the orchestral playing I was doing at the time that saved me. I rather think that had I been restricted to the grind of lessons, exams and competitions, music wouldn't have become a major part of my life. At the end of the day a few medals or cups and a handful of letters after my name would have been meaningless. The orchestral playing was all about making music for its own sake, playing to other people, and enjoying it (we had an inspirational conductor who had little time for academic music qualifications per se), and this is what gives life to music.
In later years I seen the occasional new player turn up in an orchestra, obviously technically very competent and able to rattle off any number of sonatas and other pieces at a moment's notice, but completely out of their depth when it comes to playing in an orchestra and having to do things like sight-reading at performing speed. Some of them adapt and become real musicians; others don't and disappear from the scene. This is pretty well a mirror image of what has been said earlier on in this thread about some fleadh competitors who would be out of their depth in a session despite their technical skills.
"the modern step dancing milieu really doesn't have any connection to the vibrant, vital dance music." -- oh, yes, that's oftentimes true. But it's also wrong at the same time. Black and whites, black and whites...
Another point. Whose to say who is really out of their depth? For example, if a kid suffering from 'two tune syndrome' joins a session and finds the sessioners are appaling, is the kid's limited repertoire actually worse than a sessioner's free flowing ineptitude? Could the kid's 'two tune' level of expression be more profound than twenty badly played numbers? Obviously, said kid is isolated, to a certain degree, but does this negate his brief but potentially powerful contribution? There's also the issue of the kid's untapped potential, but I'm referring solely to the evaluation of his input to a session. But, what is the criteria for a successful session's? Comaraderie? Musical excellence? Both of the aforementioned?
Oh, I'd say it depends on who makes up the session. At some sessions, indeed, friendship and a good time is the most important thing. At others, musical excellence is more important than having fun with your friends. To my eye, a successful session is whatever it's participants say it is. (I just may not show up for it, depending on whether that session's goals are the same as mine. *grin*)
Mmm. BowHand - if there's an 8 year old out there that can express anything profound at all, I'll be impressed. I was once in a place where an 11 year old girl was doing a show, singing country songs, with a TV crew and all the associated hullaballoo. Her voice was nice, no doubt. Her command of the stage was OK. But even if I closed my eyes and shut all my other preconceptions out, you could not convince me that the singer was someone who actually knew anything about the heartache being professed in the song lyrics. A person has barely had the time to experience any of life yet. To get their skills polished so well in such a short time, they will have spent most of their time *practicing* (as opposed to *playing* or *living life*).
I don't think isolation is the point. The adage about quality over quantity is true; even if you only know one tune, as long as you play it well, you're golden. But music is more than the notes and the technique used to sound them, there has to be a feeling too, and kids so young haven't had the time to experience those feelings.
Camaraderie vs musical excellence? When the music is played with sincerity, I think you get both.
Sun, a child *is* capable of making a profound musical statement. Forgive me as I embark on the obvious, but children have their own range of emotions. Is it totally out of the question to encounter an eleven year old 'soulful' musician? Must one lose one's entire family in a car crash to acquire "soulfulness" or profoundity? Children arn't cocooned from life's problems, problems which are as relevant to them as ours are to us. A young girl singing about (eg) leaving her man won't garner crediblility, but her unfamiliarity with a particular situation dosn't render her devoid of feeling. But that's a side issue. Instrumental music isn't dicated by lyrics which can pigeon hole the performer. If a nine/ten/eleven year old can play a Paddy Fahy's tune in a soulful profound manner, who is to question the depth of the emotional basis, conscious or subconscious, which informs the perfomance. Take one emotion - sadness. Bullying at school results in sadness. The absense of a husband/wife through death results sadness. Sadness, or relative sadness as the adult sees it, can shape the young players musical expression just as much as an adult.
Sessiun etiquete "the rules of engagement"
Sessiun etiquete "the rules of engagement"
While I've been playing in sessiuns since I was about 10 the "rules of the sessiun" have always remained a mystery to me. If you are new to a sessiun (meaning 1st time there) how long do ya sit out before you "intrude"? Or, if there have been say 3 or 4 tunes run off in a row is it wrong for the "new guy" to tack on another 3 or 4 tunes at the end without announcing it? Is it rude to show up and play in the nude? Should one feel insecure about the size of everyone else's instruments? Just a few questions that I never get an answer to. Thank you.
# Posted on February 3rd 2004 by dinjosra
Re: Sessiun etiquete "the rules of engagement"
1) Define "intrude".
2) Use your best judgement. You'll soon know if your judgement needs biffing up.
3) Are you as devastatingly attractive with clothes off as with clothes on? If not, yes, or perhaps it's time to cut you off at the bar, or everyone should chip in and buy you a new full length mirror...
4) Only men worry about that kind of thing.
You're welcome.
# Posted on February 3rd 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: Sessiun etiquete "the rules of engagement"
I've just always waited for the break in between tunes and said something along the lines of "hey I'm me, nice ta meet ya, what's the rules?" That's a bit basic, but that's pretty much how I've always done it. Of course I've only been to about 18 different sessions now though. So go figure.
Everyone's always been very friendly and usually it's been one of a few ways... stick out your foot to end the tune on the next "BB" of the current tune OR in some cases, you just jump in to the current set being played and stick out your foot to note you're taking over the next tune for everyone to follow... or it's everyone takes a turn and calls out what tune, or set they'd like to play and off everyone goes with them.
(The last one is the way our local hoolie goes)
But as I said, I would think simply asking would be the way to go. Nobody's ever taken offense to any session I've ever been to! Just lots of smiling faces and hey how ya doins-nice ta meet ya join-on ins.
Take care,
John
# Posted on February 3rd 2004 by McHaffie
Re: Sessiun etiquete "the rules of engagement"
Check out more stuff on this subject at a previous thread : http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display.php/2363
Jim
# Posted on February 3rd 2004 by Worldfiddler
Re: Sessiun etiquete "the rules of engagement"
Dinjosra, how much practice did you do in your All-Ireland winning days?
# Posted on February 3rd 2004 by BowHand
Re: Sessiun etiquete "the rules of engagement"
I probably put in about 3 hrs a day...but that was a while ago...then I discovered beer and the rest went downhill quickly.
# Posted on February 3rd 2004 by dinjosra
Re: Sessiun etiquete "the rules of engagement"
After a while you start to realize that in any music competition (but particularly in Irish music) you are the subject to any particular person's opinion on any given day. I have been on both ends where I have competed in and judged Fleadh's and I really have a dislike for both now. Who am I (or anyone else for that matter) to tell someone how they should play a certain piece? The music itself is so open for individual expression that it's almost a crime to judge what's right and wrong. No two person's should be playing the tunes exactly the same. The problem I have found is that certain people who are very opinionated about the music are locked in to one style or another thus, smothering the very growth of the music itself. Now it's relatively easy to judge the technical aspect of Irish Music (whether you can hit the notes, stay in time, keep good tone, the additiion of grace notes/variations and what have you) but there comes a point where the musicians are so close technically that personal tastes have to come into play....and that's just not fair. Live and let live is what I say and enjoy the music for what it is.
# Posted on February 3rd 2004 by dinjosra
Re: Sessiun etiquete "the rules of engagement"
I'm curious, what's the current status of Comhaltas, how's it perceived by the trad scene, as opposed to Irish society at large?
I only ask because I've seen CCE criticised on a number of mailing lists and discussion forums, but I can't quite tell if the trad-playing world is really becoming disenchanted enough with the way competitions are run (or the fact that they exist) in particular, and the organisation in general.
Is anyone seriously lobbying to overhaul the system?
# Posted on February 3rd 2004 by Q
Re: Sessiun etiquete "the rules of engagement"
I believe that more people have been "discouraged" by those who are of the opinion that the music should be played a certain way. I don't think that that it was ever the CCE's intention to have this happen but those who run the show have let this happen. This isn't classical music folks,. Irish music is a living, breathing animal that thrives on variety....it's what makes it different than any other music in the world. You can have players from 4 different regions play the same tune and have almost four different versions of it. That's why it's so exciting. I say F*** the powers that be and we all try to live in one musical utopia where we all jam and drink beer.
# Posted on February 3rd 2004 by dinjosra
Re: Sessiun etiquete "the rules of engagement"
Here Here.
PP
# Posted on February 3rd 2004 by Pied Piper
Re: Sessiun etiquete "the rules of engagement"
or should that be Hear Hear?
PP
# Posted on February 3rd 2004 by Pied Piper
Re: Sessiun etiquete "the rules of engagement"
i had heard negative reports too but I've been to a couple of Comhaltas sessions here in Dublin recently and one thing i can vouch for is that the musos are very welcoming with absolutely no overt snobbery re. instruments, ability or age. Great craic, and chat.
I'd recommend a visit to anyone.
Joe
# Posted on February 3rd 2004 by Joe Quinn
Re: Sessiun etiquete "the rules of engagement"
But Dinjosra, I wouldn't say the title of 'All-Ireland winner' did you any harm.
# Posted on February 4th 2004 by BowHand
Re: Sessiun etiquete "the rules of engagement"
Well, we've been back and forth over this quite a bit, since we have lots of people who compete here, lots of people who are allergic to competing here, and so on. What we generally come up with is that it's fine to compete if you like and fine to not compete if you don't.
Turlach Boylan once wrote that he thinks that "musicians don't like music. We spend so many years trying to develop a very particular style and end up with very narrow tastes."
One person's standards are another person's snobbery. I enjoy all kinds of music, but have definite views on what I want my own particular brand of music to sound like and what I'll allow it to be influenced by...and if that makes me a snob, then so be it.
# Posted on February 4th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: Sessiun etiquete "the rules of engagement"
In the overall scheme of things you are correct Bowhand but I wouldn't say that a "title" helped me either. Way back when I practiced 3 hours a day I wouldn't say I "enjoyed" it. I was a kid. Sure I kept playing that much because I was seeing an end result...might have been a different story had the results been different. It turns out that I still gave it up for over 10 years (something that I regret totally). What I'm trying to say is that as I am getting older I think that while theer may be a place for competition it overall hurts younger players who are just starting out. This isn't a sport...it's more important to nurture younger players than it is to try to figure out who's bettr than who. And I'm actually going to take that part of my bio out. It just don't matter. Now who wants to play a reel?
# Posted on February 4th 2004 by dinjosra
Re: Sessiun etiquete "the rules of engagement"
Touch
# Posted on February 4th 2004 by BowHand
Re: Sessiun etiquete "the rules of engagement"
Before I went to Ireland for the first time I sought advice on how to approach a session. I was told that I should take my instrument with me but to refuse three offers to join before sticking my neck out. I didn't listen very well because I thought I'd never get to play in a session with that approach. The first time I got In a session was after one invitation, and I made a mess of it, somewhat to the embarassment of the invitor. Each visit I am humbled by the quality of music I am hearing so now I just listen, (I've even stopped recording), and when I come home I use that inspiration to improve my playing. Not that I haven't played in asession since then, but I listen along time before committing myself. What can I add? or will I spoil something that is already very nice thank you?
Better to be silent and thought a beginner, than get out your instrument and prove it.
# Posted on February 4th 2004 by wvwhistler
Re: Sessiun etiquete "the rules of engagement"
My Dad used to tell me that at partys thrown by his parents in Dublin, someone might be asked to sing a song. "Oh, no! I just couldn't" would be the first response. Then, "I really don't have a very good singing voice" when asked the second time. When asked the third time, the response was: "well.... ok. But I'll have to get my music from the car."
# Posted on February 4th 2004 by grego
Re: Sessiun etiquete "the rules of engagement"
*grin*
# Posted on February 4th 2004 by Q
Re: Sessiun etiquete "the rules of engagement"
I would be a little wary of the credentials of the competition judges - is an adjudicator hearing competing fiddle players a superb player of that instrument and highly regarded as a musician, not just as a judge?
I suppose one positive thing about performing in a competition is that it helps the player to project the tone of the instrument - not much of this aspect is made in traditional teaching. It does have its advantages (aside from solo performance), eg a session leader playing so he can be heard and lead shy others......in a noisy pub etc.....
Jim
# Posted on February 4th 2004 by Worldfiddler
Re: Sessiun etiquete "the rules of engagement"
It's funny, Jim, but I don't think a lot of musicians learn to project tone through competitive endeavour. For example, fleadh competitions are often held in community centres or schools where competitive venues are spacious and tiled, thus acoustically benefical to even the meek or uninformed!
# Posted on February 4th 2004 by BowHand
Re: Sessiun etiquete "the rules of engagement"
Tiled? Really? Round here that's usually only the bathrooms, and now visions of an entire Fleadh in a jacks someplace are dancing through my head...
# Posted on February 4th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: Sessiun etiquete "the rules of engagement"
Tiled floors, Zina! And all some venues lacked was toilet paper...
# Posted on February 4th 2004 by BowHand
Re: Sessiun etiquete "the rules of engagement"
LOL -- very nice.
Well, part of the whole Irish stepdancing thing are the feisianna. Most of our kids and adults have very good attitudes about competing. We are always happy when they want to compete and just as happy with them if they don't. They get to see kids from other schools who they only see at a feis; they of course love it when they get medals, but none of our kids are, I hope, so focused on winning that the personal rewards of working at something so hard are benefits that go unseen if they don't place.
We've had several incidents where a child who didn't place has been gifted with medals from another dancing friend who placed, so they could have something to take home as a keepsake from a feis. I like knowing that the kids think it's fun to have medals but that the fun is more important than the placing. I think most of our kids know that we as their teachers expect them to see their dancing as a different thing from the competition.
Certainly, all of my students know that I hate competing myself and was always extremely nervous before stepping onto the floor, but they also know that I did it for me to see if I could get over my own fears.
Anyway, we always tell them that whether they place or not is not nearly so important as whether they competed well with themselves. They're never competing with the other dancers, we tell them. I had a student who was ecstatic when she finally managed to get through her steps during a competition -- previous to that she'd always been so nervous that halfway through she would completely forget her steps. The first time she made it through her reel steps at a feis, a fellow dancer gave her the first place medal won in their competition because she was also so happy for her. I was extremely proud of both of them.
# Posted on February 4th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: Sessiun etiquete "the rules of engagement"
Rules of engagement? Hmmmmm let's see:
1. Get to know the person rather well (strongly advised)
2. Buy her a sparkler
3. present same on bended knee...flowers etc
# Posted on February 5th 2004 by Joe Quinn
Re: Sessiun etiquete "the rules of engagement"
Pipers should be allowed nude into sessions, since, once they've got all they're bits strapped on, they're more or less fully clothed anyway.
# Posted on February 5th 2004 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Sessiun etiquete "the rules of engagement"
This has been a pretty rambly thread. Thank goodness I have a lot of opinions!
Sessions are for fun and making music with people you like, moderately tolerate or can publicly contain your distaste for. Fleadheanna are for practicing a certain set of tunes to their death, knowing more hornpipes than vitally necessary, spending thousands of dollars/euro on plane flights, hotel rooms, bad food and illicit beer just to have some old man grouch at you in hopes that you win a title that, in the chance you produce a solo album some time in your future, will grace said album with a one-line blurb.
But kids? Kids need fleadheanna like they need feiseanna. They're not going to seriously practice unless you entice them with some hardware. There's nothing wrong with that; it's just that at some point, adult musicians begin reaping more benefits than hardware--a social life (or lack thereof), friends (or lack thereof) and personal life satisfaction (or lack thereof). Comhaltas puts out quite a bit of money trying to convince everyone that those things aren't good enough. Comhaltas, or the Comhaltas musicians I have met, would have you believe that to be a good musician requires you to compete and place in a fleadh. That's all kinds of crap.
The magazine is crap, too. Does anyone actually design that behemoth or do they just type in 'disastrous colour scheme' into a computer program and see what vomits forth? Maybe I should start a new thread about Treoir.
At least Comhaltas encourages people to be moderately clothed at all times. And I agree with that.
# Posted on February 5th 2004 by suky
Re: Sessiun etiquete "the rules of engagement"
But, hey, Suky, don't hold back....tell us how you really feel...
*smirk*
# Posted on February 5th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: Sessiun etiquete "the rules of engagement"
Oh, and BTW, I don't necessarily agree with all that. I think anytime you make a sweeping generalization (and we *all* know that *all* generalizations are *all* wrong!), it's tempting to start talking in black and whites. Many of our kids practice very hard without ever competing, and many of our students, adults and kids alike, absolutely love competing at feisianna whether they place or not (although they do love it when they place) since, to them, a feisianna IS a social event more than a competition.
# Posted on February 5th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re:
What of all the adult musicians who win All-Irelands? They obviously havn't a life. They'd rather practice a limited number of tunes to the detriment of their general musicianship. Rather than eat breakfast, they practice their (competition) tunes. Rather than have dinner or tea, they practice their tunes. Unfortunately, these endeavours cannot be reconcilled with their general standard of musicianship. Secretly, you see, they're "crap". They might give a virtuoso performance at the fleadh but we know their walking a musical tight rope. We know they'll eventually fall to the mediocre standards below from which they *truely* belong!
Oh begod, but the fleadh is all right for kids though *Ho-Hum*
# Posted on February 5th 2004 by BowHand
Re: Sessiun etiquete "the rules of engagement"
Yes, but at least they're *thin*, BowHand, from lack of eating, and in today's society, Thin is Good... ;)
# Posted on February 5th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: Sessiun etiquete "the rules of engagement"
It's size that matters, Zina....
# Posted on February 5th 2004 by BowHand
Re: Sessiun etiquete "the rules of engagement"
And eight inches is *thaaaat* long?
# Posted on February 5th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: Sessiun etiquete "the rules of engagement"
Can one measure one's imagination?
# Posted on February 5th 2004 by BowHand
Re: Sessiun etiquete "the rules of engagement"
Ya can't measure my waistline..... I loves to eat...that's why I stopped practicing.
# Posted on February 5th 2004 by dinjosra
Re: Sessiun etiquete "the rules of engagement"
Thanks. Kids don't _need_ fleadhs, but they're pretty darn good incentives. Not just for the competition aspect but for the fun aspect, too. Fleadhs give kids access to the social side of music before they have cars and autonomy. Once they have those things and are considered 'grown-ups' then the fleadh is less necessary for the social aspect of music.
# Posted on February 6th 2004 by suky
Re: Sessiun etiquete "the rules of engagement"
Mmph. No fleadhs in California either, I guess there's one in Arizona that the diehards can pursue.
I think suky's previous post about fleadhs and practicing tunes to death is much closer to the mark. There's a lot of people who do well at competitions but who probably have never seen the fun side of what they're doing. Certainly modern step dancing is a far cry from sean nos dance. I've never been able to reconcile the total freedom of the music with the regimented, rigid posture of the dance, but finally I figured out that this is not the correct comparison; the modern step dancing milieu really doesn't have any connection to the vibrant, vital dance music.
A lot of the young kids I've seen winning at fiddle contests would be completely lost in an average session; they learned their two good tunes note for note and haven't got a clue about anything else. They're like classical orchestra players who read sheet-music and never learn the meaning of the word "improvise." (That was me, twenty years ago...) They're completely unequipped for actually contributing to the fun and *life* of the musical tradition they are supposedly participating in.
# Posted on February 6th 2004 by HighlandSun
Re: Sessiun etiquete "the rules of engagement"
There's obviously a lot of top players who don't really enjoy themselves. As for the others - can I have a go on that swing?
# Posted on February 6th 2004 by BowHand
Re: Sessiun etiquete "the rules of engagement"
P.S. Methinks "fun" is often a euphemism for slacker
# Posted on February 6th 2004 by BowHand
Re: Sessiun etiquete "the rules of engagement"
Ah... "Gee, you were pretty sloppy going thru that line." "I know, but hey, we're just doing this for fun, right?"
Don't ever try to run a performing group with members with attitudes like that. Gawd.... Yes, I'm doing this for fun too, my day job is something completely different. But if it sounds like crap, then it's no longer fun for me...
# Posted on February 6th 2004 by HighlandSun
Re: Sessiun etiquete "the rules of engagement"
Over the last year or so one or two people (one of whom isn't a playing musician but is influential in ITM in other ways) have suggested that I enter a fleadh in Ireland - for fun(!).
No way! Leaving aside the inconsequential fact that I don't consider myself anywhere near competent enough for fleadh standard, to me music competitions and exams are the very antithesis of fun. I had more than my fill of them when I was playing classical cello in my teens, and it's a wonder that it didn't put me off playing music for life. I think it was the orchestral playing I was doing at the time that saved me. I rather think that had I been restricted to the grind of lessons, exams and competitions, music wouldn't have become a major part of my life. At the end of the day a few medals or cups and a handful of letters after my name would have been meaningless. The orchestral playing was all about making music for its own sake, playing to other people, and enjoying it (we had an inspirational conductor who had little time for academic music qualifications per se), and this is what gives life to music.
In later years I seen the occasional new player turn up in an orchestra, obviously technically very competent and able to rattle off any number of sonatas and other pieces at a moment's notice, but completely out of their depth when it comes to playing in an orchestra and having to do things like sight-reading at performing speed. Some of them adapt and become real musicians; others don't and disappear from the scene. This is pretty well a mirror image of what has been said earlier on in this thread about some fleadh competitors who would be out of their depth in a session despite their technical skills.
Trevor
# Posted on February 6th 2004 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Sessiun etiquete "the rules of engagement"
"the modern step dancing milieu really doesn't have any connection to the vibrant, vital dance music." -- oh, yes, that's oftentimes true. But it's also wrong at the same time. Black and whites, black and whites...
# Posted on February 6th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: Sessiun etiquete "the rules of engagement"
Shame on you with your "two" feckin' tunes. Go and sit over in the corner. THE CORNER, STUPID!
# Posted on February 6th 2004 by BowHand
Re: The Big Picture
Another point. Whose to say who is really out of their depth? For example, if a kid suffering from 'two tune syndrome' joins a session and finds the sessioners are appaling, is the kid's limited repertoire actually worse than a sessioner's free flowing ineptitude? Could the kid's 'two tune' level of expression be more profound than twenty badly played numbers? Obviously, said kid is isolated, to a certain degree, but does this negate his brief but potentially powerful contribution? There's also the issue of the kid's untapped potential, but I'm referring solely to the evaluation of his input to a session. But, what is the criteria for a successful session's? Comaraderie? Musical excellence? Both of the aforementioned?
# Posted on February 6th 2004 by BowHand
Re: Sessiun etiquete "the rules of engagement"
Oh, I'd say it depends on who makes up the session. At some sessions, indeed, friendship and a good time is the most important thing. At others, musical excellence is more important than having fun with your friends. To my eye, a successful session is whatever it's participants say it is. (I just may not show up for it, depending on whether that session's goals are the same as mine. *grin*)
# Posted on February 6th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: Sessiun etiquete "the rules of engagement"
Mmm. BowHand - if there's an 8 year old out there that can express anything profound at all, I'll be impressed. I was once in a place where an 11 year old girl was doing a show, singing country songs, with a TV crew and all the associated hullaballoo. Her voice was nice, no doubt. Her command of the stage was OK. But even if I closed my eyes and shut all my other preconceptions out, you could not convince me that the singer was someone who actually knew anything about the heartache being professed in the song lyrics. A person has barely had the time to experience any of life yet. To get their skills polished so well in such a short time, they will have spent most of their time *practicing* (as opposed to *playing* or *living life*).
I don't think isolation is the point. The adage about quality over quantity is true; even if you only know one tune, as long as you play it well, you're golden. But music is more than the notes and the technique used to sound them, there has to be a feeling too, and kids so young haven't had the time to experience those feelings.
Camaraderie vs musical excellence? When the music is played with sincerity, I think you get both.
# Posted on February 6th 2004 by HighlandSun
Re: Sessiun etiquete "the rules of engagement"
Sun, a child *is* capable of making a profound musical statement. Forgive me as I embark on the obvious, but children have their own range of emotions. Is it totally out of the question to encounter an eleven year old 'soulful' musician? Must one lose one's entire family in a car crash to acquire "soulfulness" or profoundity? Children arn't cocooned from life's problems, problems which are as relevant to them as ours are to us. A young girl singing about (eg) leaving her man won't garner crediblility, but her unfamiliarity with a particular situation dosn't render her devoid of feeling. But that's a side issue. Instrumental music isn't dicated by lyrics which can pigeon hole the performer. If a nine/ten/eleven year old can play a Paddy Fahy's tune in a soulful profound manner, who is to question the depth of the emotional basis, conscious or subconscious, which informs the perfomance. Take one emotion - sadness. Bullying at school results in sadness. The absense of a husband/wife through death results sadness. Sadness, or relative sadness as the adult sees it, can shape the young players musical expression just as much as an adult.
# Posted on February 6th 2004 by BowHand