Sorry this will be rather long, I really hope some of you really read it all through...
Ok, I will immediately make this clear, as I have shuffled through many of the past discussions and have a feeling that this one could end the same way. We (yes, plural, I will get to that later...) simply CAN'T AFFORD an expensive instrument: we're all students still, and don't have a normal salary to count on, to buy even a medium-range instrument, at least for some of them as they are rather expensive even in their cheap version.
To be more specific, 200 euros (~ 177 Pounds or 287 Dollars) would be probably too much already. In addition to that, please consider that most instruments can't be found at a reasonable price in Italy where we live, so buying them abroad means adding shipping cost!
That being said, this is the situation right now. We're a bunch of Italian lads and ladies who've been enjoying singing Irish songs since when we were kids - we got a proper education! - and lately we're slowly trying to get more serious with ITM.
Until now there's been mainly guitars, a bodhran, whistles and on occasions a harmonica and spoons.
My friend playing whistle wanted to try something more "advanced" (apart from the transverse flute which he is probably trying to build himself as well as most of his whistles), so the current options are a concertina or uilleann pipes.
Both seem to work quite well with what we have in mind, the concertina being maybe more useful for our current repertoire of songs, while the pipes would be great as we get more confident with instrumental music and would be expecially great with hornpipes, marchs and such (no we WOULD NOT dream of putting guitars and concertinas into marchs, we're not that liberal :P).
Some specific questions, and then of course, whatever else you feel could be helpful to us in this decision
1. What instrument would you suggest, generally speaking, given our current situation and our... wishes for the future?
2. For which of the two would a "cheap" instrument be relatively better, as far as your experience goes? We don't necessarily need to have a session-level instrument, just something that, once learnt, can give a not-unbearable sound at various speeds (I remember reading around here that too-cheap concertinas are no good for session level, but I didn't exactly understand the reason).
3. Is a C/G anglo concertina with 20 buttons any good, except for starting to learn? The fact that it doesn't have any accidental with the exception of F# is a little bit discouraging, knowing that a huge part of ITM is supposed to be in the key of D...
4. I know this will sound like blasphemy, but is it possible - for a cheap uilleann pipe - to make it yourself, with the possible exception of reeds and bellows? I actually happened to stumble upon some websites concerning exactly this plus the making of GHBs, and I guess my friend would love the challenge of doing this himself. Of course it's not as buying one from professionals, but it could be a way to spend less, learn more about the instrument and have something to start playing with... Does any of you have experience with this?
I guess that's pretty much everything, though I'm sure forgot something... Thanks in advance for your answers!
P.S.: actually, I was forgetting... another one of us already got a cheap fiddle, carried away by enthusiasm. She started fiddling around with it (sorry had to write that! ) and she says she could get a really easy melody out of the thing. I take it she means that it actually produces a sound, not just noise... will judge when I get to hear that in person!
At what level does the fiddle quality start to hinder progress or performance, in your experience?
a cheap concertina or set of uilleann pipes will not suit you or anyone. They are just far too complicated to mass produce on a level that's even playable. That being said, I have one piper friend who has nothing but praise for David Daye's "penny chanter" & esp his reeds, which he says are very consistent. There are cheap concertina's but they are mostly toys at best. If your in Italy there might be some used button boxes (B/C) around for cheap money.
Some used/student instruments you can get in the 70 euro range would more likely be a banjo, fiddle, six hole simple system polymer flute.
As far as a cheap fiddle, the most common fiddle problem that hinders performance is slippery/misaligned fiddle pegs which make it hard to tune & keep in tune. Also, if it comes with fine tuners they are usually crap, best to toss them & either buy new fine-tuners or a tailpiece that has them built in. Another common problem: most (almost all) cheap set-ups have not been set up in the least - they need to have there bridges cut & soundpost adjusted. Most violin shops will set up any fiddle you bring in for an affordable price - well worth the money. A new set of strings helps too - alot of Irish fiddlers like Helicores.
Concertina and uilleann pipes unfortunately are at the high end of the price spectrum, even if they are "starter" sets. The only "cheap" instrument I've ever come across is the penny whistle unfortunately. For a concertina you should check out Wim Wakker's (Concertinaconnection) Rochelle, that's what I play. A 20 button C/G won't work unless you are playing in just those keys. You really need that accidental row. I also play a David Daye penny chanter, he supplied me with everything I needed. I had to supply myself with the bag material and bellows but still for just over $100, that sure beats 8-900 dollars for starting out. For a nice reasonably priced flute check out Casey Burns Folk Flute. I realize you weren't interested in overseas shipping but I'm just trying to throw some different makes out there who make really good instruments at a reasonable price. I'm sorry I can't be more helpful, I can only give advice on instruments that I play. not to long ago I was in the same predicament as you, it took me almost 2 years before I was able to afford my GHB. I wish for the best for you and your lads (and ladies.)
A quick cheap & easy route to a simple system flute. The only problem with these are that the bore is cylindrical instead of conical so there are tuning issues in the upper register. But for the price of a stick of PVC you'll get 5 flutes & you can pick the best of the bunch.
Bear in mind that despite your proclaimed poverty, you are rich in comparison with some of of those Irish travellers and villagers who made their own instruments from tin, wood, skins, bones, and anything else they could catch up with -- and they didn't have plastic! Scour the second had shops and start cannibalising, patching up, re-stringing and cleaning.
I once bought a nice-looking fiddle case for twelve pounds, and when I got it home there was a fiddle in it. I stripped it down and re-finished it, and it.s now a fine instrument.
Get drilling and sawing. Look for kits for banjos, fiddles and mandolins. You might not produce a masterpiece, but the enjoyment in experimentation will be a talking point for the rest of your lives.
It's an unfortunate fact that to the violin trade, re-varnishing destroys the value of the fiddle. This may be illogical, and the fiddle may look lots better, but it knocks loads off the value.
It probably doesn't matter if the fiddle was rubbish anyway, but are you sure?
You can get some decent Romanian or Chinese-made mandolins within your price range. At that mass-produced level, quality can vary a lot so it's worth trying several of the same model before buying. Unfortuinately a lot of stringed instruments on display in shops don't have good strings on them but you can at least check it for intonation and playability.
You can actually find some very sweet-toned cheap mandolins but what you will never get at low-price are good tone combined with good volume and easy playability.
For what it's worth, traditionally, in Ireland, folk almost invariably played really bad fiddles ... and played them beautifully. Surely Italy is awash with bad fiddles? And what about accordions of all sorts shapes and sizes?
All you could ever really need for this music would be cheep fiddles, accordions and tin whistles.
Also, the trouble with making them yourself is that it invariably requires a lathe and unless you have access to one, they cost about as much as a decent set of pipes.
Wow, so many replies already! Thanks a lot & keep them coming, they're all appreciated, even those I sort of don't get :P
Love the bit about people in Ireland traditionally playing bad fiddles in a beautiful way, it's encouraging even if our skills are probably not that high!
Thanks about suggestions regarding other instruments as well, but the choice is actually sort of limited to those 2 instruments, more or less. We're considering adding a banjo as well, in place of a guitar, but that'll be another matter, about which I'll probably need to open a thread as well :P
Apart from bouzoukis and harps the concertina and pipes are the only missing elements (considering what we already have or plan to get). As for the harp, there's a chance one of us has one around, and a bouzouki/mandolin/whatever added to guitars and a banjo wouldn't be as good as a reed/wind instrument.
Plus, as it's our main whistle player who would take up the whatever-we-will-get, maybe it isn't the best idea, as we would have almost only stringed instruments!
Pipes: I found instructions on how to make a vinyl bag, PVC chanters, penny chanters, even a self made bellow (and in the worst case an air mattress pump could do for practice at home :P http://bit.ly/okpKIQ). Also, these don't seem to require the use of a lathe, actually...
Any of you has direct or second-hand experience on a completely or partially self-made set? Buying the most difficult to make properly and self building the rest could be a choice!
Concertinas and accordions: we initially left piano and button accordions aside, as they seemed to be too expensive, then maybe their cheaper versions are not as bad as a cheap concertina (?) and there's a bigger chance we'll find a used one around.
We have a couple good piano players, so the piano accordion could be great for them too, though we would definitely prefer something smaller and less loud!
Did any of you start with a bad/cheap instrument and found a way of upgrading it a bit without paying tons of money?
What makes a cheap concertina expecially bad? Bad tuning, bad sound, poorly working bellows...?
(just to have a practical example, either of you ever got their hand on one of these following concertinas? http://bit.ly/nBIqSM http://bit.ly/mTDSLd http://bit.ly/rccFSs )
Also, to answer everyone properly, I never managed to find a shop or other place with second hand instruments which has any of those we need... and I have no problem with shipping from the US or anywhere else, as long as it is available, the only problem is that the delivery price needs to be considered as well! :/
"in the worst case an air mattress pump could do for practice"
I reiterate, forget the pipes.
And probably the best advice I can think of for you guys is for you all to learn the tin whistle. No exceptions. Especially any of you who might consider yourselves more as accompanists or percussion players.
The tin whistle is such a marvelous thing and it's right at the top of all things diddley. You can learn all there is about it in a day, and yet it will always surprise you. The instrument uniquely sums up your predicament and desires. It is the best value musical instrument on the planet.
I'll second that re whistle. To OP, you ask about 'cheap' concertinas - I think the point to note is that the concertina is essentially a mechanical instrument. You press a button and get a note of a certain pitch etc. On budget concertinas, leaving aside the reeds, it's the mechanical bits that can cause the problems. The cheaper parts used in these can wear or break etc. Having said that, I think the budget Stagi or Boorinwood C/G models with 30 buttons might well suit for a while, particularly on slower tunes. Look at http://www.boorinwoodmusic.com/html/concertinas.html
the middle one on that page can often be seen with different names on it - it's made in China I think and then badged with various names.
Somebody recommends the Rochelle above, these are supposed to be better made but I'm not sure as I know someone who has one a year or so and it's giving trouble. They're also big & clunky compared to above.
@c.g. I'd rather give it away than sell it to anyone in 'the violin trade'.
@OP I don't know what you find so problematic with the bellows. Every house in the country had a bellows in the fireplace at one time, and I would guess that most of them were hand made. If your man is prepared to make the pipes, the bellows should be no problem. But I'll second llig's warning -- you'll be wasting your time and your money (although you might have fun doing it). Make a whistle and a flute first.
@gam and @llig, of course at this point it would be mainly an experiment, and that only if the cost is low enough to make it reasonable! As for whistles, my friend already has made or bought around 10 in different pitches, and surely before trying to make a pipe we'll try the flute
As for the initial dilemma we're currently considering a cheap but not-too-crappy concertina, we'll keep looking around and on the web for those that have been mentioned above, see if we can find a good bargain
. You can learn all there is about it in a day, and yet it will always surprise you.
Llig, are you joking?
Learn the whistle in a day by Bert "Whistlin in the Wind "Weedon
Just to agree with what everyone else is saying about the pipes, dont do it...
I've bought a few cheap sets of pipes. Pakistani mostly. A set with bellows, a set without bellows and a blowpipe instead. I've switched out the chanters. I've tried to mod them myself. Nothing sounds good at all and at best when I can actually get a tune out of them it still sounds like a toy.
After I gave up with that I got a Rochelle concertina. I like it a lot but if I didn't waste all that money on trying to get a crappy set of pipes I could have bought a decent concertina like the Clover or Morse Ceili.
Yeah, absolutely, Learn the whistle in a day by Bert "Whistlin in the Wind "Weedon. Great
You cover all the holes and blow, then you take your fingers off and blow. If you can't get that in a day you're a right numpty. And if you think there is anything more to it than that then you're a defeatist.
I'm sure everyone here would agree that the Harmonica is a fine instrument for trad and not expensive. Even more people would say the same of the whistle.
The harmonica is fine and he started trying in the last week (the notes are, if I'm not mistaken, organized sort of like the buttons on a 20-b. concertina? Oh and... there is a "Paddy-tuning" for the harmonica, I found out today... can one do it by himself?), but he was more biased towards instruments he can play on songs too, as his first choice instrument right now doesn't give him freedom to play and sing.
As you can guess, right now most of the times we play when we're singing together with friends, the majority of which don't play an instrument, so he'd like to be able to play AND join in, which would be great to help people learn new songs quicker too, as we are the 2 who know more of them, but I'm not really the good singer type :P
I got into Irish trad since I was few years old, my dad used to have loads of music cassettes around (various kinds of music, not only ITM but also country, american protest songs, italian songwriters, some classical, a bit of rock, blah blah blah...), a couple originals, others recorded from God knows where...
I'm sure there were a lot by the Chieftains, probabily something by the Dubliners as well and I have no idea what else
Some of those are still around...
So, until me and my sisters got old enough to start listening to crappy commercial music, our car trips had lots of irish music :P
I agree with the above - the button mechanism in concertinas are extremely complex - a cheap concertina just doesn't play well because of the poorly designed mechanisms -
if you want to go less expensive, an inexpensive button accordion or melodeon is going to perform better and give you a better learning experience than an inexpensive concertina --
when I was getting started I dabbled a little with a cheap hohner anglo tina an it was for all intents and purposes unplayable because the buttons stuck half the time, while the toy melodeon I was playing on allowed me to play quite a few tunes
I have a $3500 Gibson mando (for which I paid $2000 on ebay) and a $190 Chinese-made beater mando. The Gibson is NOT18 times as good as the beater. The beater has been to south america twice, climbing, etc and still plays perfectly well. Gibson's main advantage is
a) it looks really cool
b) it's feckin' LOUD
c) it never goes out of tune
d) I can sell if for what I paid for it
...when in doubt, buy a cheap isntrument and put it in a good case, or buy decent used.
Need advice about cheap instrument(s)
Need advice about cheap instrument(s)
Sorry this will be rather long, I really hope some of you really read it all through...
) and she says she could get a really easy melody out of the thing. I take it she means that it actually produces a sound, not just noise... will judge when I get to hear that in person!
Ok, I will immediately make this clear, as I have shuffled through many of the past discussions and have a feeling that this one could end the same way. We (yes, plural, I will get to that later...) simply CAN'T AFFORD an expensive instrument: we're all students still, and don't have a normal salary to count on, to buy even a medium-range instrument, at least for some of them as they are rather expensive even in their cheap version.
To be more specific, 200 euros (~ 177 Pounds or 287 Dollars) would be probably too much already. In addition to that, please consider that most instruments can't be found at a reasonable price in Italy where we live, so buying them abroad means adding shipping cost!
That being said, this is the situation right now. We're a bunch of Italian lads and ladies who've been enjoying singing Irish songs since when we were kids - we got a proper education! - and lately we're slowly trying to get more serious with ITM.
Until now there's been mainly guitars, a bodhran, whistles and on occasions a harmonica and spoons.
My friend playing whistle wanted to try something more "advanced" (apart from the transverse flute which he is probably trying to build himself as well as most of his whistles), so the current options are a concertina or uilleann pipes.
Both seem to work quite well with what we have in mind, the concertina being maybe more useful for our current repertoire of songs, while the pipes would be great as we get more confident with instrumental music and would be expecially great with hornpipes, marchs and such (no we WOULD NOT dream of putting guitars and concertinas into marchs, we're not that liberal :P).
Some specific questions, and then of course, whatever else you feel could be helpful to us in this decision
1. What instrument would you suggest, generally speaking, given our current situation and our... wishes for the future?
2. For which of the two would a "cheap" instrument be relatively better, as far as your experience goes? We don't necessarily need to have a session-level instrument, just something that, once learnt, can give a not-unbearable sound at various speeds (I remember reading around here that too-cheap concertinas are no good for session level, but I didn't exactly understand the reason).
3. Is a C/G anglo concertina with 20 buttons any good, except for starting to learn? The fact that it doesn't have any accidental with the exception of F# is a little bit discouraging, knowing that a huge part of ITM is supposed to be in the key of D...
4. I know this will sound like blasphemy, but is it possible - for a cheap uilleann pipe - to make it yourself, with the possible exception of reeds and bellows? I actually happened to stumble upon some websites concerning exactly this plus the making of GHBs, and I guess my friend would love the challenge of doing this himself. Of course it's not as buying one from professionals, but it could be a way to spend less, learn more about the instrument and have something to start playing with... Does any of you have experience with this?
I guess that's pretty much everything, though I'm sure forgot something... Thanks in advance for your answers!
P.S.: actually, I was forgetting... another one of us already got a cheap fiddle, carried away by enthusiasm. She started fiddling around with it (sorry had to write that!
At what level does the fiddle quality start to hinder progress or performance, in your experience?
# Posted on September 5th 2011 by netspider86
Re: Need advice about cheap instrument(s)
a cheap concertina or set of uilleann pipes will not suit you or anyone. They are just far too complicated to mass produce on a level that's even playable. That being said, I have one piper friend who has nothing but praise for David Daye's "penny chanter" & esp his reeds, which he says are very consistent. There are cheap concertina's but they are mostly toys at best. If your in Italy there might be some used button boxes (B/C) around for cheap money.
Some used/student instruments you can get in the 70 euro range would more likely be a banjo, fiddle, six hole simple system polymer flute.
As far as a cheap fiddle, the most common fiddle problem that hinders performance is slippery/misaligned fiddle pegs which make it hard to tune & keep in tune. Also, if it comes with fine tuners they are usually crap, best to toss them & either buy new fine-tuners or a tailpiece that has them built in. Another common problem: most (almost all) cheap set-ups have not been set up in the least - they need to have there bridges cut & soundpost adjusted. Most violin shops will set up any fiddle you bring in for an affordable price - well worth the money. A new set of strings helps too - alot of Irish fiddlers like Helicores.
Best of luck
# Posted on September 5th 2011 by B Rad
Re: Need advice about cheap instrument(s)
Concertina and uilleann pipes unfortunately are at the high end of the price spectrum, even if they are "starter" sets. The only "cheap" instrument I've ever come across is the penny whistle unfortunately. For a concertina you should check out Wim Wakker's (Concertinaconnection) Rochelle, that's what I play. A 20 button C/G won't work unless you are playing in just those keys. You really need that accidental row. I also play a David Daye penny chanter, he supplied me with everything I needed. I had to supply myself with the bag material and bellows but still for just over $100, that sure beats 8-900 dollars for starting out. For a nice reasonably priced flute check out Casey Burns Folk Flute. I realize you weren't interested in overseas shipping but I'm just trying to throw some different makes out there who make really good instruments at a reasonable price. I'm sorry I can't be more helpful, I can only give advice on instruments that I play. not to long ago I was in the same predicament as you, it took me almost 2 years before I was able to afford my GHB. I wish for the best for you and your lads (and ladies.)
# Posted on September 5th 2011 by WishiwasIrish
Re: Need advice about cheap instrument(s)
http://www.cwo.com/~ph_kosel/flutomat.html
A quick cheap & easy route to a simple system flute. The only problem with these are that the bore is cylindrical instead of conical so there are tuning issues in the upper register. But for the price of a stick of PVC you'll get 5 flutes & you can pick the best of the bunch.
# Posted on September 5th 2011 by B Rad
Re: Need advice about cheap instrument(s)
a low priced box will get you started and you can play loudly in all keys necessary for ITM
# Posted on September 5th 2011 by Reeds Munson
Re: Need advice about cheap instrument(s)
Bear in mind that despite your proclaimed poverty, you are rich in comparison with some of of those Irish travellers and villagers who made their own instruments from tin, wood, skins, bones, and anything else they could catch up with -- and they didn't have plastic! Scour the second had shops and start cannibalising, patching up, re-stringing and cleaning.
I once bought a nice-looking fiddle case for twelve pounds, and when I got it home there was a fiddle in it. I stripped it down and re-finished it, and it.s now a fine instrument.
Get drilling and sawing. Look for kits for banjos, fiddles and mandolins. You might not produce a masterpiece, but the enjoyment in experimentation will be a talking point for the rest of your lives.
Have pity on your grandchildren
# Posted on September 5th 2011 by gam
Re: Need advice about cheap instrument(s)
...second hand...
# Posted on September 5th 2011 by gam
Re: Need advice about cheap instrument(s)
'I stripped it down and re-finished it'.
It's an unfortunate fact that to the violin trade, re-varnishing destroys the value of the fiddle. This may be illogical, and the fiddle may look lots better, but it knocks loads off the value.
It probably doesn't matter if the fiddle was rubbish anyway, but are you sure?
# Posted on September 5th 2011 by c.g.
Re: Need advice about cheap instrument(s)
You can get some decent Romanian or Chinese-made mandolins within your price range. At that mass-produced level, quality can vary a lot so it's worth trying several of the same model before buying. Unfortuinately a lot of stringed instruments on display in shops don't have good strings on them but you can at least check it for intonation and playability.
You can actually find some very sweet-toned cheap mandolins but what you will never get at low-price are good tone combined with good volume and easy playability.
# Posted on September 5th 2011 by Bren
Re: Need advice about cheap instrument(s)
For what it's worth, traditionally, in Ireland, folk almost invariably played really bad fiddles ... and played them beautifully. Surely Italy is awash with bad fiddles? And what about accordions of all sorts shapes and sizes?
All you could ever really need for this music would be cheep fiddles, accordions and tin whistles.
(forget the pipes)
# Posted on September 5th 2011 by ...
Re: Need advice about cheap instrument(s)
@ c.g. I couldn't give a flying feck about the violin trade.
# Posted on September 5th 2011 by gam
Re: Need advice about cheap instrument(s)
Ditto about the pipes.
Also, the trouble with making them yourself is that it invariably requires a lathe and unless you have access to one, they cost about as much as a decent set of pipes.
# Posted on September 5th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Need advice about cheap instrument(s)
Wow, so many replies already! Thanks a lot & keep them coming, they're all appreciated, even those I sort of don't get :P
Love the bit about people in Ireland traditionally playing bad fiddles in a beautiful way, it's encouraging even if our skills are probably not that high!
Thanks about suggestions regarding other instruments as well, but the choice is actually sort of limited to those 2 instruments, more or less. We're considering adding a banjo as well, in place of a guitar, but that'll be another matter, about which I'll probably need to open a thread as well :P
Apart from bouzoukis and harps the concertina and pipes are the only missing elements (considering what we already have or plan to get). As for the harp, there's a chance one of us has one around, and a bouzouki/mandolin/whatever added to guitars and a banjo wouldn't be as good as a reed/wind instrument.
Plus, as it's our main whistle player who would take up the whatever-we-will-get, maybe it isn't the best idea, as we would have almost only stringed instruments!
Pipes: I found instructions on how to make a vinyl bag, PVC chanters, penny chanters, even a self made bellow (and in the worst case an air mattress pump could do for practice at home :P http://bit.ly/okpKIQ). Also, these don't seem to require the use of a lathe, actually...
Any of you has direct or second-hand experience on a completely or partially self-made set? Buying the most difficult to make properly and self building the rest could be a choice!
Concertinas and accordions: we initially left piano and button accordions aside, as they seemed to be too expensive, then maybe their cheaper versions are not as bad as a cheap concertina (?) and there's a bigger chance we'll find a used one around.
We have a couple good piano players, so the piano accordion could be great for them too, though we would definitely prefer something smaller and less loud!
Did any of you start with a bad/cheap instrument and found a way of upgrading it a bit without paying tons of money?
What makes a cheap concertina expecially bad? Bad tuning, bad sound, poorly working bellows...?
(just to have a practical example, either of you ever got their hand on one of these following concertinas?
http://bit.ly/nBIqSM
http://bit.ly/mTDSLd
http://bit.ly/rccFSs )
Also, to answer everyone properly, I never managed to find a shop or other place with second hand instruments which has any of those we need... and I have no problem with shipping from the US or anywhere else, as long as it is available, the only problem is that the delivery price needs to be considered as well! :/
# Posted on September 5th 2011 by netspider86
Re: Need advice about cheap instrument(s)
"in the worst case an air mattress pump could do for practice"
I reiterate, forget the pipes.
And probably the best advice I can think of for you guys is for you all to learn the tin whistle. No exceptions. Especially any of you who might consider yourselves more as accompanists or percussion players.
# Posted on September 5th 2011 by ...
Re: Need advice about cheap instrument(s)
Hehe, that I'm doing already, as well as convincing everyone else to do it too, at least as an exercise.
# Posted on September 5th 2011 by netspider86
Re: Need advice about cheap instrument(s)
The tin whistle is such a marvelous thing and it's right at the top of all things diddley. You can learn all there is about it in a day, and yet it will always surprise you. The instrument uniquely sums up your predicament and desires. It is the best value musical instrument on the planet.
# Posted on September 5th 2011 by ...
Re: Need advice about cheap instrument(s)
I'll second that re whistle. To OP, you ask about 'cheap' concertinas - I think the point to note is that the concertina is essentially a mechanical instrument. You press a button and get a note of a certain pitch etc. On budget concertinas, leaving aside the reeds, it's the mechanical bits that can cause the problems. The cheaper parts used in these can wear or break etc. Having said that, I think the budget Stagi or Boorinwood C/G models with 30 buttons might well suit for a while, particularly on slower tunes. Look at http://www.boorinwoodmusic.com/html/concertinas.html
the middle one on that page can often be seen with different names on it - it's made in China I think and then badged with various names.
Somebody recommends the Rochelle above, these are supposed to be better made but I'm not sure as I know someone who has one a year or so and it's giving trouble. They're also big & clunky compared to above.
# Posted on September 5th 2011 by the wounded hussar
Re: Need advice about cheap instrument(s)
Yes, that's the same badged Scarlatti http://www.hobgoblin.com/local/GR4714_p_Scarlatti-30-key-CG-Anglo-Page.htm
# Posted on September 5th 2011 by the wounded hussar
Re: Need advice about cheap instrument(s)
@gam You might do if you wanted a trade-in or to sell it!
# Posted on September 5th 2011 by c.g.
Re: Need advice about cheap instrument(s)
@c.g. I'd rather give it away than sell it to anyone in 'the violin trade'.
@OP I don't know what you find so problematic with the bellows. Every house in the country had a bellows in the fireplace at one time, and I would guess that most of them were hand made. If your man is prepared to make the pipes, the bellows should be no problem. But I'll second llig's warning -- you'll be wasting your time and your money (although you might have fun doing it). Make a whistle and a flute first.
# Posted on September 5th 2011 by gam
Re: Need advice about cheap instrument(s)
@gam and @llig, of course at this point it would be mainly an experiment, and that only if the cost is low enough to make it reasonable!
As for whistles, my friend already has made or bought around 10 in different pitches, and surely before trying to make a pipe we'll try the flute 
As for the initial dilemma we're currently considering a cheap but not-too-crappy concertina, we'll keep looking around and on the web for those that have been mentioned above, see if we can find a good bargain
# Posted on September 5th 2011 by netspider86
Re: Need advice about cheap instrument(s)
It seems you could get a used piano accordion. Not the best for trad, but you would get the free reed sound.
# Posted on September 5th 2011 by CleverName
Re: Need advice about cheap instrument(s)
. You can learn all there is about it in a day, and yet it will always surprise you.
Llig, are you joking?
Learn the whistle in a day by Bert "Whistlin in the Wind "Weedon
# Posted on September 5th 2011 by Joseph Tailyour
Re: Need advice about cheap instrument(s)
Just to agree with what everyone else is saying about the pipes, dont do it...
I've bought a few cheap sets of pipes. Pakistani mostly. A set with bellows, a set without bellows and a blowpipe instead. I've switched out the chanters. I've tried to mod them myself. Nothing sounds good at all and at best when I can actually get a tune out of them it still sounds like a toy.
After I gave up with that I got a Rochelle concertina. I like it a lot but if I didn't waste all that money on trying to get a crappy set of pipes I could have bought a decent concertina like the Clover or Morse Ceili.
# Posted on September 5th 2011 by deltasalmon
Re: Need advice about cheap instrument(s)
Yeah, absolutely, Learn the whistle in a day by Bert "Whistlin in the Wind "Weedon. Great
You cover all the holes and blow, then you take your fingers off and blow. If you can't get that in a day you're a right numpty. And if you think there is anything more to it than that then you're a defeatist.
# Posted on September 6th 2011 by ...
Re: Need advice about cheap instrument(s)
I'm sure everyone here would agree that the Harmonica is a fine instrument for trad and not expensive. Even more people would say the same of the whistle.
How dod you get into the Irish songs anyway?
# Posted on September 6th 2011 by harmonic miner
Re: Need advice about cheap instrument(s)
The harmonica is fine and he started trying in the last week (the notes are, if I'm not mistaken, organized sort of like the buttons on a 20-b. concertina? Oh and... there is a "Paddy-tuning" for the harmonica, I found out today... can one do it by himself?), but he was more biased towards instruments he can play on songs too, as his first choice instrument right now doesn't give him freedom to play and sing.
As you can guess, right now most of the times we play when we're singing together with friends, the majority of which don't play an instrument, so he'd like to be able to play AND join in, which would be great to help people learn new songs quicker too, as we are the 2 who know more of them, but I'm not really the good singer type :P
I got into Irish trad since I was few years old, my dad used to have loads of music cassettes around (various kinds of music, not only ITM but also country, american protest songs, italian songwriters, some classical, a bit of rock, blah blah blah...), a couple originals, others recorded from God knows where...
I'm sure there were a lot by the Chieftains, probabily something by the Dubliners as well and I have no idea what else
Some of those are still around...
So, until me and my sisters got old enough to start listening to crappy commercial music, our car trips had lots of irish music :P
# Posted on September 6th 2011 by netspider86
Re: Need advice about cheap instrument(s)
How about E-bay Lots of great repairable stuff there, I've gotten a waldzither (short scale cittern) and a blackwood flute very reasonably .
# Posted on September 6th 2011 by edorian
Re: Need advice about cheap instrument(s)
I agree with the above - the button mechanism in concertinas are extremely complex - a cheap concertina just doesn't play well because of the poorly designed mechanisms -
if you want to go less expensive, an inexpensive button accordion or melodeon is going to perform better and give you a better learning experience than an inexpensive concertina --
when I was getting started I dabbled a little with a cheap hohner anglo tina an it was for all intents and purposes unplayable because the buttons stuck half the time, while the toy melodeon I was playing on allowed me to play quite a few tunes
# Posted on September 10th 2011 by Reeds Munson
Re: Need advice about cheap instrument(s)
I have a $3500 Gibson mando (for which I paid $2000 on ebay) and a $190 Chinese-made beater mando. The Gibson is NOT18 times as good as the beater. The beater has been to south america twice, climbing, etc and still plays perfectly well. Gibson's main advantage is
a) it looks really cool
b) it's feckin' LOUD
c) it never goes out of tune
d) I can sell if for what I paid for it
...when in doubt, buy a cheap isntrument and put it in a good case, or buy decent used.
# Posted on October 4th 2011 by chris stolz