Ever hear a "new" tune which sounds more than a bit like an old one? Latest I ran into was some reel with a sorta unique first part, but the turn was basically the 3rd part of Lord MacDonald. Forget the name.
Maybe my ear's attuned to this sort of thing more than most - once I was listening to a jazz pianist with decades of playing under his belt, he played the standard "Like Someone in Love," I remarked to him that the opening notes were basically those of what else but Danny Boy. This was news to him, despite having played it thousands of times.
Likewise at sessions I'm always hearing these new tunes and noting their parallels in older material. Maybe I should get an editing gig...don't have anything against this btw, it's quite traditional itself, as will become apparent when looking in old tunebooks; you've no end of slight variations on musical themes, not to mention all the alternate titles.
One example that comes to mind is Ed Reavy's hornpipe Lad O'Bierne's (http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/546), which in its 5th bar sounds a bit like the first few bars of the Bashful Bachelor (http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/10160) - arpeggio in G for a bar, then arpeggio in C. Things diverge after that a bit but the similarity is there nonetheless. Indeed Paddy Cronin made a medley of these on one of his LPs.
This happens a lot in many genres. For example, in plainchant, in the major scale the phrase 1-3-5-6-5 is a melodic shape that occurs at the start of quite a few chants. And yes, lots of musical motifs surface from time to time in other music. The Dies Irae surfaced in many pieces over hundreds of years - in everything from St Saens Organ Symphony to pop songs.
Recycling is nothing new, and it's not limited to Irish music!
I notice this an awful lot. But whenever this pops up for me I always think back to my days bike riding and think 'this is just like heading out for a ride but going on a different road to normal, taking in some new lanes and byways en-route'.
It's not really the same tune, but it's got some of the same views from a different road. The merit can be in the added twists and turns on the way.
It's bound to happen sometimes, and such 'cobbling together' (as we see it) occurs in old tunes as well as new. Tunebooks may well have recorded, sometimes, cobbled-together tunes as bona-fide distinct tunes, if you want to call them that. Writers of tune-books don't know all the tunes that exist, or all about them. Nor does anybody who plays or composes tunes. Or if they do, they are probably totally round the bend.
Composers are likely to think of appealing note sequences, check them against their repertoire, and maybe use them in a new tune if there's no obvious match in a tune they already know. But there may well be a match in a tune they don't know. Hence, duplicates or close variations of a tune part may arise (or bars in it, anyway).
A friend once said, if you think you've written a tune, play it in sessions for a few weeks. If no-one says, oh that's so-and-so, you've written it.
However, many tunes are old - they can be found in 18th century tune books and musician's manuscripts - and as well as that they've spent a couple of hundred years being passed from ear to ear. It's no wonder they mutate.
I wrote a reel once that I was very pleased with and introduced it to other players. Then one day I was trawling through O'Neill's book and to my horror I came across a reel which had the very same second part as my reel. As Mr O'Neill was a lot older than me I put my composition in the bin.
Quasi Compositions
Quasi Compositions
Ever hear a "new" tune which sounds more than a bit like an old one? Latest I ran into was some reel with a sorta unique first part, but the turn was basically the 3rd part of Lord MacDonald. Forget the name.
Maybe my ear's attuned to this sort of thing more than most - once I was listening to a jazz pianist with decades of playing under his belt, he played the standard "Like Someone in Love," I remarked to him that the opening notes were basically those of what else but Danny Boy. This was news to him, despite having played it thousands of times.
Likewise at sessions I'm always hearing these new tunes and noting their parallels in older material. Maybe I should get an editing gig...don't have anything against this btw, it's quite traditional itself, as will become apparent when looking in old tunebooks; you've no end of slight variations on musical themes, not to mention all the alternate titles.
One example that comes to mind is Ed Reavy's hornpipe Lad O'Bierne's (http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/546), which in its 5th bar sounds a bit like the first few bars of the Bashful Bachelor (http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/10160) - arpeggio in G for a bar, then arpeggio in C. Things diverge after that a bit but the similarity is there nonetheless. Indeed Paddy Cronin made a medley of these on one of his LPs.
# Posted on August 30th 2011 by KLR
Re: Quasi Compositions
I'm pretty sure the second part of the Fly in the Porter is almost identical to that from another tune.
The second part of the Tinker's Daughter and the Green Mountain also springs immediately to mind.
Also, the first part of the Bog of Allen is almost identical to the second part of Swallows in Flight.
Likewise, there are plenty of 'English' jigs, the first part of which is the second part of an 'Irish' or 'Scottish' jig.
# Posted on August 30th 2011 by Dragut Reis
Re: Quasi Compositions
This happens a lot in many genres. For example, in plainchant, in the major scale the phrase 1-3-5-6-5 is a melodic shape that occurs at the start of quite a few chants. And yes, lots of musical motifs surface from time to time in other music. The Dies Irae surfaced in many pieces over hundreds of years - in everything from St Saens Organ Symphony to pop songs.
Recycling is nothing new, and it's not limited to Irish music!
# Posted on August 30th 2011 by Mark Harmer
Re: Quasi Compositions
I notice this an awful lot. But whenever this pops up for me I always think back to my days bike riding and think 'this is just like heading out for a ride but going on a different road to normal, taking in some new lanes and byways en-route'.
It's not really the same tune, but it's got some of the same views from a different road. The merit can be in the added twists and turns on the way.
# Posted on August 30th 2011 by Beanzy
Re: Quasi Compositions
It's bound to happen sometimes, and such 'cobbling together' (as we see it) occurs in old tunes as well as new. Tunebooks may well have recorded, sometimes, cobbled-together tunes as bona-fide distinct tunes, if you want to call them that. Writers of tune-books don't know all the tunes that exist, or all about them. Nor does anybody who plays or composes tunes. Or if they do, they are probably totally round the bend.
Composers are likely to think of appealing note sequences, check them against their repertoire, and maybe use them in a new tune if there's no obvious match in a tune they already know. But there may well be a match in a tune they don't know. Hence, duplicates or close variations of a tune part may arise (or bars in it, anyway).
# Posted on August 31st 2011 by nicholas
Re: Quasi Compositions
A friend once said, if you think you've written a tune, play it in sessions for a few weeks. If no-one says, oh that's so-and-so, you've written it.
However, many tunes are old - they can be found in 18th century tune books and musician's manuscripts - and as well as that they've spent a couple of hundred years being passed from ear to ear. It's no wonder they mutate.
# Posted on August 31st 2011 by c.g.
Re: Quasi Compositions
I wrote a reel once that I was very pleased with and introduced it to other players. Then one day I was trawling through O'Neill's book and to my horror I came across a reel which had the very same second part as my reel. As Mr O'Neill was a lot older than me I put my composition in the bin.
# Posted on September 2nd 2011 by Free Reed