Just wondering if anybody was at the senior button box competition on sunday and what was their opinion on it? I heard it was a very shaky decision on the adjudicators part.
You have already asked that question on another thread. I'm not sure what the purpose of asking it again is. There will always be decisions made that people don't agree with. That is how it goes. I wasn't at the fleadh but I am shocked that Scotland didn't win everything. Cest la vie.
I guess every year there is some indication that the judges sided with one style of playing over than the other which may have had possible influence from the origin of the contestant, whether their name was in Irish or not, how they were dressed, maybe even whether they preferred the tone of one box to another, it should just be about the music but the hear say is that it can be about many other factors - at the end of the day the senior all Ireland fleadh winner in button accordion may not be even close to the best button accordion player in the world that year, it is just one way of trying to make this determination.
"at the end of the day the senior all Ireland fleadh winner in button accordion may not be even close to the best button accordion player in the world that year, it is just one way of trying to make this determination"
As far as I was aware the competition isn't about who is the best player of the instrument in the World (!) it is just about who was the best on the day, of those that are competing. Not the same thing. I don't think I have ever met Vanessa Miller or, indeed either of the other two medal winners but congratulations to them all. A fine achievement indeed.
actually i since got my hands on a recording of the competition and I agree with what i heard that the results were indeed very shaky!! Deaf adjudicators comes to mind!!
My point was that exactly NCFA, 2 things I wanted to bring up are that another accordion player competing may have played better another day or another accordion player who may have been capable of winning did not enter. I don't mean somebody who records professionally, it's kinda known that they wouldn't compete anyway, but somebody not an all Ireland winner and maybe just not an All Ireland competitor anymore due to disillusionment with the setup, their ability to handle the pressure. A friend of mine tutored the 2nd place finisher in either the 12-15 or 15-18 yo accordion but says he has never himself succeeded in playing to the level he knows he can under such pressure, many other say the same about this classroom format, this guy can be put anywhere, on stage in front of thousands, whatever, just not at the fleadh!
I agree that is a totally valid point and i hear exactly what your saying but the players the got placed were clearly not the best players on the day! I know it all opinion and i agree with what ncfa said also but it clearly was a terrbly judged competition! The adjudicators said in there comments that they were looking for 4 consistaintly good tunes, even though second place completely made a balls of his reel, third place couldent finish his hornpipe and had to play it again, (does that mean he was judged on 5 tunes??) and first place although should have gotten a place was only an adverge player in the mix! There's something seariously wrong woth the standard of adjudication clearly, that is just un acceptable at All Ireland Level!!!
Interesting discussion! Boxmadlad, is there anyway of getting a recording of the competition? You said that you had one, I would love to hear it!! Please let me know
Well maybe they didn't do well in the final but played brilliantly in their round to get themselves there. It is just supposition as I have never even been to the Fleadh but this does sound awfully like sour grapes.
NCFA, I guess there does seem to be a prevalent feeling on here and among some friends of mine that some of the decision making at the Fleadh was "interesting" this year, for example, it almost looks like they made a conscious decision not to award placings to USA based competitiors who have done very well historically.
Implying that a specific individual should not have won is very much like trying to prise the trophy out of their hands though so I see what you mean there
I used to do fiddle competitions here... and quickly learned that getting one's knickers in a bunch about contest results is a waste of time, energy , and emotion.
Contests are about a particular moment in time, a particular judge's ear... in other words, they are a crap shoot. From local contests to National... they are subjective beasts and somebody will always complain about the results. And some will be quite happy with the way it turned out.
And then gather in a hotel lobby or parking lot and commence to make some real music instead of what's played during the rounds.
Well I think there were less medals going Scotland's (Glasgow's) way this time than in previous years too but I have not heard any serious grumbling from anyone, just praise for those who did get medals and stories about how great it was.
NCFA, I know I'm starting to sound very American proud but in a country of so much Irish ascendancy and so many highly competitive musical districts, I find it hard to see George Grasso, Autumn Rhodes, Owen Meehan, Sean Mc Comiskey, Joey Abarta all heading home empty handed, even though I have not heard them specifically complain, they have all won All Ireland's lately so it seems that their decrease to one 3rd place for the Pearl River branch is something more than a co incidence.
But yeh, bickering is not very useful and the judges don't have as easy a job as we all think
Paudy, What All Ireland's have the players that you mention won as I went back over the Fleadh results for box to 2007 and see none of their names mentioned? Am I missing something here???
well Ptarmigan and no cause for alarm I can assure you I have absolutely no reason to have sour grapes as I didn't actually know anybody playing in the competition personally but only by reputation only! Yes Button box I heard about them stopping some guy who played because they couldn't distinguish a set dance from a hornpipe! What was the story with that? can anyone elaborate and what actually happened? Surely if its true that the couldn't tell the difference between a set dance and a hornpipe that is total incompetence!! I personally have never heard the likes of adjudicators stopping somebody mid tune like that before! Strange to have such inexperienced adjudicators of a senior all Ireland competition!
boxman2008, Owen Meehan won 1st in whistle in 2009 (15-18 yo) and placed 3rd in flute last year, John Abarta places 2nd in pipes in 2009, the others I believe have placed I believe in various years and certainly swept the mid atlantic fleadh this year.
Maybe it was the competitor who didn't know the difference between a set-dance and a hornpipe, and the adjudicator was pointing it out. I don't know if "Ptarmigan" will remember this or not, but that very thing happened to a trio in a competition we were in at the All-Britain Fleadh in 1985 [ possibly 1986 ?]. The adjudicator was Eamonn Coyne, of the Liverpool Ceili Band, hardly an "inexperienced adjudicator".
Yes i totally agree Boxmadlad, I had been at the competition and when the adjucators asked the competitor to stop and play some of his hornpipe again I could not believe it I dont play an instrument but even i knew the difference between the
hornpipe and Barndance. It was clear to be seen they were incompetant or else had not been listening to the competitor. Maybe they were not box players? If they had to wait until the competitor had finished playing his barndance and asked him to play some of his hornpipe again it may not have drawn as much attention! In experience is all I can say
Ok- Just to get a better overview of this discussions - Question for whoever was at the competition or subsequently heard!
Who were the adjudicator/judges?
Question for boxmadlad! Your goin on and on about a poor decision and you've analysed the 3 people who got placed and given that you have heard a recording of the competition! Who would you have given 1st 2nd and 3rd place to?
Boxmadlad, I’ve heard you play in Dublin and your rubbish so your no one to judge a competition and you were not even there. You have never gotten out of a county fleadh never mind getting placed at an all-Ireland.
I agree they should not have stopped the guy in the middle of his tune, Michael played a lovely reel that you couldn’t play if you tried learning it for the rest of your life and Martin played a savage hornpipe that’s very difficult to play and played it perfect the 2nd time which he was entitled to play at adjudicators discretion. A similar instance happened a few years back when there was a re-call for first place and one competitor stopped in the middle of the tune but was made play it again and went to win competition. You should have a look at the rules before passing comments on any competitors. I was at the competition and I thought the result was fair. Venessa played lovely so fair play to her. Go to the competition the next time besides passing comments you obviously haven’t a bull's notion what your talking about. The only thing that needs shaking is the recorder your using because the batteries are obviously dead. Have a nice day!
Senior Box competition, Cavan 2011
Senior Box competition, Cavan 2011
Hi all,
Just wondering if anybody was at the senior button box competition on sunday and what was their opinion on it? I heard it was a very shaky decision on the adjudicators part.
Results:
1st Venessa Miller, Clare
2nd: Michael Curran, Tyrone
3rd Martin O Connell. Laois
# Posted on August 22nd 2011 by Boxmadlad
Re: Senior Box competition, Cavan 2011
You have already asked that question on another thread. I'm not sure what the purpose of asking it again is. There will always be decisions made that people don't agree with. That is how it goes. I wasn't at the fleadh but I am shocked that Scotland didn't win everything. Cest la vie.
# Posted on August 22nd 2011 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Senior Box competition, Cavan 2011
So its great another all ireland champion
well done .congratulations ....
so what does this mean in real music.life to non competition players ..
# Posted on August 23rd 2011 by corncrake
Re: Senior Box competition, Cavan 2011
I heard the tune she won with was "To hell with the begrudgers"...
# Posted on August 23rd 2011 by Obvious
Re: Senior Box competition, Cavan 2011
I guess every year there is some indication that the judges sided with one style of playing over than the other which may have had possible influence from the origin of the contestant, whether their name was in Irish or not, how they were dressed, maybe even whether they preferred the tone of one box to another, it should just be about the music but the hear say is that it can be about many other factors - at the end of the day the senior all Ireland fleadh winner in button accordion may not be even close to the best button accordion player in the world that year, it is just one way of trying to make this determination.
# Posted on August 23rd 2011 by Paudy
Re: Senior Box competition, Cavan 2011
"at the end of the day the senior all Ireland fleadh winner in button accordion may not be even close to the best button accordion player in the world that year, it is just one way of trying to make this determination"
As far as I was aware the competition isn't about who is the best player of the instrument in the World (!) it is just about who was the best on the day, of those that are competing. Not the same thing. I don't think I have ever met Vanessa Miller or, indeed either of the other two medal winners but congratulations to them all. A fine achievement indeed.
# Posted on August 23rd 2011 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Senior Box competition, Cavan 2011
Reminds me of the old 'ism'....
80% of life is just showing up.
The other one that comes to mind....
If you don't show up, you have no right to complain.
# Posted on August 24th 2011 by zippydw
Re: Senior Box competition, Cavan 2011
actually i since got my hands on a recording of the competition and I agree with what i heard that the results were indeed very shaky!! Deaf adjudicators comes to mind!!
# Posted on August 24th 2011 by Boxmadlad
Re: Senior Box competition, Cavan 2011
My point was that exactly NCFA, 2 things I wanted to bring up are that another accordion player competing may have played better another day or another accordion player who may have been capable of winning did not enter. I don't mean somebody who records professionally, it's kinda known that they wouldn't compete anyway, but somebody not an all Ireland winner and maybe just not an All Ireland competitor anymore due to disillusionment with the setup, their ability to handle the pressure. A friend of mine tutored the 2nd place finisher in either the 12-15 or 15-18 yo accordion but says he has never himself succeeded in playing to the level he knows he can under such pressure, many other say the same about this classroom format, this guy can be put anywhere, on stage in front of thousands, whatever, just not at the fleadh!
# Posted on August 25th 2011 by Paudy
Re: Senior Box competition, Cavan 2011
I agree that is a totally valid point and i hear exactly what your saying but the players the got placed were clearly not the best players on the day! I know it all opinion and i agree with what ncfa said also but it clearly was a terrbly judged competition! The adjudicators said in there comments that they were looking for 4 consistaintly good tunes, even though second place completely made a balls of his reel, third place couldent finish his hornpipe and had to play it again, (does that mean he was judged on 5 tunes??) and first place although should have gotten a place was only an adverge player in the mix! There's something seariously wrong woth the standard of adjudication clearly, that is just un acceptable at All Ireland Level!!!
# Posted on August 25th 2011 by Boxmadlad
Re: Senior Box competition, Cavan 2011
So why tell us ? Tell Comhaltas.
# Posted on August 25th 2011 by Kenny
Re: Senior Box competition, Cavan 2011
I thought it was strange they way they stopped one guy becasue they thought he played two hornpipes! Strange competition!
# Posted on August 25th 2011 by Button Box
Re: Senior Box competition, Cavan 2011
Interesting discussion! Boxmadlad, is there anyway of getting a recording of the competition? You said that you had one, I would love to hear it!! Please let me know
# Posted on August 25th 2011 by boxman2008
Re: Senior Box competition, Cavan 2011
Well maybe they didn't do well in the final but played brilliantly in their round to get themselves there. It is just supposition as I have never even been to the Fleadh but this does sound awfully like sour grapes.
# Posted on August 25th 2011 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Senior Box competition, Cavan 2011
NCFA, I guess there does seem to be a prevalent feeling on here and among some friends of mine that some of the decision making at the Fleadh was "interesting" this year, for example, it almost looks like they made a conscious decision not to award placings to USA based competitiors who have done very well historically.
Implying that a specific individual should not have won is very much like trying to prise the trophy out of their hands though so I see what you mean there
# Posted on August 25th 2011 by Paudy
Re: Senior Box competition, Cavan 2011
I used to do fiddle competitions here... and quickly learned that getting one's knickers in a bunch about contest results is a waste of time, energy , and emotion.
Contests are about a particular moment in time, a particular judge's ear... in other words, they are a crap shoot. From local contests to National... they are subjective beasts and somebody will always complain about the results. And some will be quite happy with the way it turned out.
And then gather in a hotel lobby or parking lot and commence to make some real music instead of what's played during the rounds.
# Posted on August 25th 2011 by Wyogal
Re: Senior Box competition, Cavan 2011
Well I think there were less medals going Scotland's (Glasgow's) way this time than in previous years too but I have not heard any serious grumbling from anyone, just praise for those who did get medals and stories about how great it was.
# Posted on August 25th 2011 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Senior Box competition, Cavan 2011
NCFA, I know I'm starting to sound very American proud but in a country of so much Irish ascendancy and so many highly competitive musical districts, I find it hard to see George Grasso, Autumn Rhodes, Owen Meehan, Sean Mc Comiskey, Joey Abarta all heading home empty handed, even though I have not heard them specifically complain, they have all won All Ireland's lately so it seems that their decrease to one 3rd place for the Pearl River branch is something more than a co incidence.
But yeh, bickering is not very useful and the judges don't have as easy a job as we all think
# Posted on August 25th 2011 by Paudy
Re: Senior Box competition, Cavan 2011
Were they all competing this year?
# Posted on August 25th 2011 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Senior Box competition, Cavan 2011
"this does sound awfully like sour grapes." .... Yes, I was wondering if Boxmadlad's real name is ..... Arsene Wenger?
# Posted on August 25th 2011 by Ptarmigan
Re: Senior Box competition, Cavan 2011
Paudy, What All Ireland's have the players that you mention won as I went back over the Fleadh results for box to 2007 and see none of their names mentioned? Am I missing something here???
# Posted on August 25th 2011 by boxman2008
Re: Senior Box competition, Cavan 2011
well Ptarmigan and no cause for alarm I can assure you I have absolutely no reason to have sour grapes as I didn't actually know anybody playing in the competition personally but only by reputation only! Yes Button box I heard about them stopping some guy who played because they couldn't distinguish a set dance from a hornpipe! What was the story with that? can anyone elaborate and what actually happened? Surely if its true that the couldn't tell the difference between a set dance and a hornpipe that is total incompetence!! I personally have never heard the likes of adjudicators stopping somebody mid tune like that before! Strange to have such inexperienced adjudicators of a senior all Ireland competition!
# Posted on August 26th 2011 by Boxmadlad
Re: Senior Box competition, Cavan 2011
boxman2008, Owen Meehan won 1st in whistle in 2009 (15-18 yo) and placed 3rd in flute last year, John Abarta places 2nd in pipes in 2009, the others I believe have placed I believe in various years and certainly swept the mid atlantic fleadh this year.
This link tells a bit of a story from last year vs this year https://sites.google.com/site/ccemidatlanticfleadh/all-ireland-fleadh-result
# Posted on August 26th 2011 by Paudy
Re: Senior Box competition, Cavan 2011
Maybe it was the competitor who didn't know the difference between a set-dance and a hornpipe, and the adjudicator was pointing it out. I don't know if "Ptarmigan" will remember this or not, but that very thing happened to a trio in a competition we were in at the All-Britain Fleadh in 1985 [ possibly 1986 ?]. The adjudicator was Eamonn Coyne, of the Liverpool Ceili Band, hardly an "inexperienced adjudicator".
# Posted on August 26th 2011 by Kenny
Re: Senior Box competition, Cavan 2011
Yes i totally agree Boxmadlad, I had been at the competition and when the adjucators asked the competitor to stop and play some of his hornpipe again I could not believe it I dont play an instrument but even i knew the difference between the
hornpipe and Barndance. It was clear to be seen they were incompetant or else had not been listening to the competitor. Maybe they were not box players? If they had to wait until the competitor had finished playing his barndance and asked him to play some of his hornpipe again it may not have drawn as much attention! In experience is all I can say
# Posted on August 26th 2011 by curosity
Re: Senior Box competition, Cavan 2011
Ok- Just to get a better overview of this discussions - Question for whoever was at the competition or subsequently heard!
Who were the adjudicator/judges?
Question for boxmadlad! Your goin on and on about a poor decision and you've analysed the 3 people who got placed and given that you have heard a recording of the competition! Who would you have given 1st 2nd and 3rd place to?
Also it's only a competition. It's not like getting 1st will give you instant fame and fortune. I mean look at the list on Wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_All-Ireland_Fleadh_champions#Button_Accordion_.28Bosca_Cheoil.29 - How many of these names have you heard of since.
Thats not to take away from anyone who has won the comp. Congrats and well done but lets have a bit of perspective here.
# Posted on August 26th 2011 by balledfan
Re: Senior Box competition, Cavan 2011
??
I have heard of lots of them!
# Posted on August 26th 2011 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Senior Box competition, Cavan 2011
Boxmadlad, I’ve heard you play in Dublin and your rubbish so your no one to judge a competition and you were not even there. You have never gotten out of a county fleadh never mind getting placed at an all-Ireland.
I agree they should not have stopped the guy in the middle of his tune, Michael played a lovely reel that you couldn’t play if you tried learning it for the rest of your life and Martin played a savage hornpipe that’s very difficult to play and played it perfect the 2nd time which he was entitled to play at adjudicators discretion. A similar instance happened a few years back when there was a re-call for first place and one competitor stopped in the middle of the tune but was made play it again and went to win competition. You should have a look at the rules before passing comments on any competitors. I was at the competition and I thought the result was fair. Venessa played lovely so fair play to her. Go to the competition the next time besides passing comments you obviously haven’t a bull's notion what your talking about. The only thing that needs shaking is the recorder your using because the batteries are obviously dead. Have a nice day!
# Posted on September 13th 2011 by judge