Hey there, I've heard that a wee bit extra weight at the tip makes for a good fiddling bow. Now I have an excellent, evenly weighted bow, very light in my hand and it gets good volume. Best volume I've heard out of a bow really. But it is lightish I've heard, but its a great bow, wouldn't want to do anything to change it.
So for fun I found a way to put a tiny bit of weight on the tip with the help of a small black spring clip thingy with a some magazine paper torn out of the corners of 5 pages to protect my good wood bow. Well, I knew it would throw off the balance of my good bow, so I realized how I should not use it as a true gauge, I was just having some fun.
So yeah a small amount of weight allowed a clearer volume and tone out of super short movements like triplets, but the whole spring clip set up, threw off the bows balance, and I got tired like physically tired way too soon, and before I knew it, I wasn't able to keep time, when having to jump across 3 strings ya know... from the D to the E, so poo on that.
But it did get my curiosity up, I might try to find a mid price bow with a slightly heavy tip that was actually built that way it would probably not be so exhausting to play. how does one go about judging bows to find such a creature? What is the average bow weight anyway? I've never really cared. It seems there are technical detail lovers of all stripes on this site, and opinions of every style any comments or wisdom for me?
The right bow weight is a very personal thing, and depends a lot on your playing style. It's a great idea to experiment with different weights.
Some shops will ship you bows to try out, but you'll have to give them your credit card info so they can charge you if the bow doesn't get back to them on time. If you're lucky enough to have a good fiddle shop nearby, you can try out different ones there.
You're on the right track, a good way to experiment is to tape toothpicks to the stick to vary the weight and balance. Don't just add weight to the tip, as you've found that will kill the balance. Also, don't overdo it, a little bit of extra weight goes a long way.
Personally, I find heavier sticks to work better for me with fiddling. Bow weights vary a lot and are very individual, even machine-made carbon fibre bows will vary. Average bow weight is around 60 grams, but that's not a hard-and-fast rule, every bow is different.
Good luck to you, finding the right bow can make a world of difference.
As Marklar says, whatever weight you add to the tip needs to be counterweighted at the frog by a suitable (ie greater) amount to maintain the balance. Blu-tack is great for trial-and-error type experimenting, as it is easily varied, and can be moved about and / or removed without leaving a mark. One of my experimental bows had a slice of cork wedged in the tip, which did the job and doesn't look too hideous.
Bow makers do adjust the tip weight of bows - they make it heavier by either adding ebony veneer below the tip plate, or in extreme cases using a nickel silver tip plate instead of bone or plastic.
But the real effect of altering tip weight is simply to move the centre of gravity of the bow towards the tip. The same effect can be achieved by making the frog end lighter - that's done with the lapping - sparkly thread is ultra light, faux whale bone is medium, and silver wire is heavy, fine adjustment is made with the length of lapping.
As for finding a new bow, you could do your experiments with blue-tack and stuff, weigh the bow and measure the C of G and
then take your scales with you when you go shopping and find one that matches. But in reality there are other factors involved, so a better way is to simply play the bows on offer and choose the one that suits. You could always take your blue-tacked one with you for comparison.
It's made out of some soft wood. I always wanted more weight in the bow, to get bowed triplets easier; also I liked the balance holding things up a bit from the frog, but found it really uncomfortable doing so. Putting my thumb under the frog helped get more power, but the balance isn't there.
Now I try the standard grip and it feels just fine. Lately I've been working on really playing the single bows from the wrist, and maybe the practice has paid off somehow. Used to be the standard grip didn't work at all for me.
Kevin, I love your mad scientist approach to bow modifications, but getting a decent bow or at least having it rehaired might do you a lot of good.
I know, good bows aren't cheap, money doesn't grow on trees, and even a re-hair costs enough to sting if you don't have much cash to spare. But the problems you seem to be having with your hold might have more to do with your bow than with your right hand. Working on your bowing with a stick like that would be an uphill battle for anyone.
If you can manage to get a good, low-end carbon fibre bow, It might do wonders for you. At least try one out and see how much difference it makes. If you have to go to such extremes to make your bow work for you, then the problem may be more with the bow than with your right hand.
I know it's a point of pride among many fiddlers to use the worst gear possible and many do very well that way, but at least try out a good bow and see how it feels.
I use a Viola bow often, an incredibow which is superlight, and a couple of cheap octagonal fiddle sticks and a mid/ high end Coda bow..Id rather have a really good wood bow, but thats a lot of money and its somewhat fragile, so I went with the Carbon Fiber
.ohh you wanna watch it with the blutac! It might melt through your stick or something! Ive been told here that I shouldn't suggest its use as a mute on my fiddle bridge..
.
I agree with Marklar, but suggest your better of getting a really good bow, IMO its 1/2 the instrument, that and good strings.
I would think it's just a coping strategy to cheer themselves up despite not having enough cash to afford good equipment. Pride of a different kind. You can make good music on a beaten-up fiddle, for sure. But deep down, most people want something that's easy to play and sounds good, and that's in good repair and won't fall apart with normal handling. And generally, you have to pay a little bit for quality like that.
You just have to look at the number of fiddlers playing instruments caked up with 1/4" of rosin dust to realize that isn't the case - a quick rub with a duster would give them a better instrument at no cost at all, but they'd rather have the 'street cred'. Someone recently broke a D string on a gig, and replaced it with a guitar string. A couple of days later I was playing with him and gave him a free Dominant , but three weeks later he still had the guitar string on, and was still telling anyone who would listen that he was playing on a guitar string.
".ohh you wanna watch it with the blutac! It might melt through your stick or something! Ive been told here that I shouldn't suggest its use as a mute on my fiddle bridge."
Bridges are unvarnished. Bow sticks aren't, they are much better protected. I can't vouch for the safety of using Blu-Tack on a bow stick, but I wouldn't be too concerned about it for temporary experimentation.
Well, there are eejit fiddle players as well as players of any other instrument. Laziness (rosin dust) is one thing, but a guitar string---I'd hate to think of what that would do to the fiddle and bow. Never mind how it would sound.
Oh, well, I actually do... have a really good bow. I don't want to modify it. I would rather get a less good bow, and perhaps get it tuned with the wedges or metal bits, or alternate winding like someone said. Experimentally, I would never leave any kind of thingy like blue tack or similar gummy things in contact with my bow for longer than it would take to play an hour or so worth of tunes, because it's a very good wood bow. It's great even.
Thanks for the ideas in the thread though, I've actually got a couple new ideas to work with.
I've never found that a heavier bow, or a bow weighted more toward the tip, was better for bowed triplets or much of anything else.
More weight toward the tip may make a bow feel less skittish, but you'll actually sacrifice some agility, especially in string crossings and playing nearer the frog. Better, I think, to learn how to weight a well-balanced bow with your arm and hand to get the tone and power you're after, and still retain the liveliness of a bow that's not tip-heavy. YMMV.
yeah I hear that Will, I noticed that in my brief spring clip experiment, but I chalked it up to my poor craftsmanship, and probably too much weight added.
I don't really have much to complain about, I'm just tinkering.
Marklar - my bow is a cheapish carbon fiber job, a John Paul Bravo. Cost something like $300? Can't recall. I'm a mad scientist already so am always futzing around with instruments - you should see my setup for the pipes.
Anyway I like this bow quite a bit. Will's term "skittish" describes what I dislike about most bows, including ones that cost a lot more than mine did. Conclusion I've come to is that what I really need is lots of practice combined with recording myself, which is always traumatic, you know. ;)
I used to tie bits of drill rod to the bow. Good for scratching the body up...
Weight of a bow
Weight of a bow
Hey there, I've heard that a wee bit extra weight at the tip makes for a good fiddling bow. Now I have an excellent, evenly weighted bow, very light in my hand and it gets good volume. Best volume I've heard out of a bow really. But it is lightish I've heard, but its a great bow, wouldn't want to do anything to change it.
So for fun I found a way to put a tiny bit of weight on the tip with the help of a small black spring clip thingy with a some magazine paper torn out of the corners of 5 pages to protect my good wood bow. Well, I knew it would throw off the balance of my good bow, so I realized how I should not use it as a true gauge, I was just having some fun.
So yeah a small amount of weight allowed a clearer volume and tone out of super short movements like triplets, but the whole spring clip set up, threw off the bows balance, and I got tired like physically tired way too soon, and before I knew it, I wasn't able to keep time, when having to jump across 3 strings ya know... from the D to the E, so poo on that.
But it did get my curiosity up, I might try to find a mid price bow with a slightly heavy tip that was actually built that way it would probably not be so exhausting to play. how does one go about judging bows to find such a creature? What is the average bow weight anyway? I've never really cared. It seems there are technical detail lovers of all stripes on this site, and opinions of every style any comments or wisdom for me?
# Posted on August 19th 2011 by SandyBottoms
Re: Weight of a bow
The right bow weight is a very personal thing, and depends a lot on your playing style. It's a great idea to experiment with different weights.
Some shops will ship you bows to try out, but you'll have to give them your credit card info so they can charge you if the bow doesn't get back to them on time. If you're lucky enough to have a good fiddle shop nearby, you can try out different ones there.
You're on the right track, a good way to experiment is to tape toothpicks to the stick to vary the weight and balance. Don't just add weight to the tip, as you've found that will kill the balance. Also, don't overdo it, a little bit of extra weight goes a long way.
Personally, I find heavier sticks to work better for me with fiddling. Bow weights vary a lot and are very individual, even machine-made carbon fibre bows will vary. Average bow weight is around 60 grams, but that's not a hard-and-fast rule, every bow is different.
Good luck to you, finding the right bow can make a world of difference.
# Posted on August 19th 2011 by Marklar
Re: Weight of a bow
As Marklar says, whatever weight you add to the tip needs to be counterweighted at the frog by a suitable (ie greater) amount to maintain the balance. Blu-tack is great for trial-and-error type experimenting, as it is easily varied, and can be moved about and / or removed without leaving a mark. One of my experimental bows had a slice of cork wedged in the tip, which did the job and doesn't look too hideous.
# Posted on August 19th 2011 by gam
Re: Weight of a bow
excellent idea gam, I think my daughter has some of that in her room, think I will grab a blob of it.
# Posted on August 19th 2011 by SandyBottoms
Re: Weight of a bow
Bow makers do adjust the tip weight of bows - they make it heavier by either adding ebony veneer below the tip plate, or in extreme cases using a nickel silver tip plate instead of bone or plastic.
But the real effect of altering tip weight is simply to move the centre of gravity of the bow towards the tip. The same effect can be achieved by making the frog end lighter - that's done with the lapping - sparkly thread is ultra light, faux whale bone is medium, and silver wire is heavy, fine adjustment is made with the length of lapping.
As for finding a new bow, you could do your experiments with blue-tack and stuff, weigh the bow and measure the C of G and
then take your scales with you when you go shopping and find one that matches. But in reality there are other factors involved, so a better way is to simply play the bows on offer and choose the one that suits. You could always take your blue-tacked one with you for comparison.
# Posted on August 19th 2011 by skreech
Re: Weight of a bow
Interesting stuff - never heard about using Blu-Tack or toothpicks. Funny thing but just yesterday I decided to try my bow sans a "dingus" I made last year, to grip the bow up the stick: http://i777.photobucket.com/albums/yy52/TheDudePeakOil/Irish%20Music/BowDingus.jpg?t=1313774617
It's made out of some soft wood. I always wanted more weight in the bow, to get bowed triplets easier; also I liked the balance holding things up a bit from the frog, but found it really uncomfortable doing so. Putting my thumb under the frog helped get more power, but the balance isn't there.
Now I try the standard grip and it feels just fine. Lately I've been working on really playing the single bows from the wrist, and maybe the practice has paid off somehow. Used to be the standard grip didn't work at all for me.
# Posted on August 19th 2011 by KLR
Re: Weight of a bow
Kevin, I love your mad scientist approach to bow modifications, but getting a decent bow or at least having it rehaired might do you a lot of good.
I know, good bows aren't cheap, money doesn't grow on trees, and even a re-hair costs enough to sting if you don't have much cash to spare. But the problems you seem to be having with your hold might have more to do with your bow than with your right hand. Working on your bowing with a stick like that would be an uphill battle for anyone.
If you can manage to get a good, low-end carbon fibre bow, It might do wonders for you. At least try one out and see how much difference it makes. If you have to go to such extremes to make your bow work for you, then the problem may be more with the bow than with your right hand.
I know it's a point of pride among many fiddlers to use the worst gear possible and many do very well that way, but at least try out a good bow and see how it feels.
# Posted on August 19th 2011 by Marklar
Re: Weight of a bow
I use a Viola bow often, an incredibow which is superlight, and a couple of cheap octagonal fiddle sticks and a mid/ high end Coda bow..Id rather have a really good wood bow, but thats a lot of money and its somewhat fragile, so I went with the Carbon Fiber
It might melt through your stick or something! Ive been told here that I shouldn't suggest its use as a mute on my fiddle bridge..
.ohh you wanna watch it with the blutac!
.
I agree with Marklar, but suggest your better of getting a really good bow, IMO its 1/2 the instrument, that and good strings.
# Posted on August 19th 2011 by piobagusfidil
Re: Weight of a bow
...and good rosin. That's the third half!
# Posted on August 19th 2011 by Mark Harmer
Re: Weight of a bow
"I know it's a point of pride among many fiddlers to use the worst gear possible and many do very well that way,"
Um, no. Every fiddler I know appreciates a good instrument and aspires to playing with the best gear possible. Where did you get such an idea?
# Posted on August 19th 2011 by kennedy
Re: Weight of a bow
"Um, no. Every fiddler I know appreciates a good instrument and aspires to playing with the best gear possible. Where did you get such an idea?"
I've known fiddlers like this.
# Posted on August 19th 2011 by Marklar
Re: Weight of a bow
I would think it's just a coping strategy to cheer themselves up despite not having enough cash to afford good equipment. Pride of a different kind. You can make good music on a beaten-up fiddle, for sure. But deep down, most people want something that's easy to play and sounds good, and that's in good repair and won't fall apart with normal handling. And generally, you have to pay a little bit for quality like that.
# Posted on August 19th 2011 by kennedy
Re: Weight of a bow
You just have to look at the number of fiddlers playing instruments caked up with 1/4" of rosin dust to realize that isn't the case - a quick rub with a duster would give them a better instrument at no cost at all, but they'd rather have the 'street cred'. Someone recently broke a D string on a gig, and replaced it with a guitar string. A couple of days later I was playing with him and gave him a free Dominant , but three weeks later he still had the guitar string on, and was still telling anyone who would listen that he was playing on a guitar string.
# Posted on August 20th 2011 by skreech
Re: Weight of a bow
".ohh you wanna watch it with the blutac!
It might melt through your stick or something! Ive been told here that I shouldn't suggest its use as a mute on my fiddle bridge."
Bridges are unvarnished. Bow sticks aren't, they are much better protected. I can't vouch for the safety of using Blu-Tack on a bow stick, but I wouldn't be too concerned about it for temporary experimentation.
# Posted on August 20th 2011 by Marklar
Re: Weight of a bow
Well, there are eejit fiddle players as well as players of any other instrument. Laziness (rosin dust) is one thing, but a guitar string---I'd hate to think of what that would do to the fiddle and bow. Never mind how it would sound.
# Posted on August 20th 2011 by kennedy
Re: Weight of a bow
"I know, good bows aren't cheap, money doesn't grow on trees,"
I read this at first as, "bows don't grow on trees" and I thought, hang on, wait a minute...
# Posted on August 20th 2011 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Weight of a bow
Haha Jon, I guess you could say that brazilwood trees really are money trees
# Posted on August 20th 2011 by Marklar
Re: Weight of a bow
Oh, well, I actually do... have a really good bow. I don't want to modify it. I would rather get a less good bow, and perhaps get it tuned with the wedges or metal bits, or alternate winding like someone said. Experimentally, I would never leave any kind of thingy like blue tack or similar gummy things in contact with my bow for longer than it would take to play an hour or so worth of tunes, because it's a very good wood bow. It's great even.
Thanks for the ideas in the thread though, I've actually got a couple new ideas to work with.
# Posted on August 20th 2011 by SandyBottoms
Re: Weight of a bow
Out of curiosity, just how long does it take to play an hour's worth of tunes?
# Posted on August 20th 2011 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Weight of a bow
I've never found that a heavier bow, or a bow weighted more toward the tip, was better for bowed triplets or much of anything else.
More weight toward the tip may make a bow feel less skittish, but you'll actually sacrifice some agility, especially in string crossings and playing nearer the frog. Better, I think, to learn how to weight a well-balanced bow with your arm and hand to get the tone and power you're after, and still retain the liveliness of a bow that's not tip-heavy. YMMV.
# Posted on August 20th 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: Weight of a bow
yeah I hear that Will, I noticed that in my brief spring clip experiment, but I chalked it up to my poor craftsmanship, and probably too much weight added.
I don't really have much to complain about, I'm just tinkering.
# Posted on August 20th 2011 by SandyBottoms
Re: Weight of a bow
All in fun...turn the bow around and hold the tip end, with the frog now flailing around where the tip used to be. A whole 'nuther feel!
# Posted on August 20th 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: Weight of a bow
Marklar - my bow is a cheapish carbon fiber job, a John Paul Bravo. Cost something like $300? Can't recall. I'm a mad scientist already so am always futzing around with instruments - you should see my setup for the pipes.
Anyway I like this bow quite a bit. Will's term "skittish" describes what I dislike about most bows, including ones that cost a lot more than mine did. Conclusion I've come to is that what I really need is lots of practice combined with recording myself, which is always traumatic, you know. ;)
I used to tie bits of drill rod to the bow. Good for scratching the body up...
# Posted on August 20th 2011 by KLR