You know the origin of the term "catgut" right, Ptarmy? Nothing to do with cats. I'll post if people are interested, but it's been put up here so often, maybe it's boring by now ...
I stand to be corrected, but I don't think D'Addario make gut strings, for sale at any rate, although I expect they know all about the physics and technology.
Ptarmi, I use gut strings, so every time I drive past a field of sheep I say "thank you".
I thought it was funny, right enough. It's just that some people actually do think that "catgut" comes from cats. That, plus I think the real reason it's called "catgut" is interesting. That probably just means I'm a boring person, I think.
Sheep gut isn't the only gut material being used today. Gamut Strings
(http://gamutmusic.squarespace.com/) in the USA are now producing a range of beef gut strings - the raw material comes from Ireland.
Beef gut is seen as a speciality in the gut string world; it stabilizes and holds pitch a little better than sheep gut, the tone is described as being clearer and brighter than sheep gut of equal gauge, and it has a higher tensile strength than sheep gut, so is useful for instruments requiring extra durability. Beef gut strings are provided for the violin E and A, and for a number of viols, lutes and harps. [This information is on the Gamut website.]
Their decline corresponds to the mass uptake of guitars, fiddles etc. in the postwar era of prosperity.
"*****x!", I hear you cry.
But if I transferred this into some era of ancient history and expounded it, breathless, on the telly in some brooding archaeological hell-hole, I'd be feted for my bold insight and originality.
Back in the dim and distant past, when I was a Biological Sciences technician in the University, it was a truth universally expounded that if you wanted a good sample of sheeps' gut not to wait until the animal was dead, as they decompose remarkably quickly.
Not a lot of people want to know that.
So, my congratulations to anyone who can make anything useful out of sheep gut, because I certainly couldn't.
"if you wanted a good sample of sheeps' gut not to wait until the animal was dead, as they decompose remarkably quickly"
Not with normal commercial processing. I spent a a summer working in one of the largest abattoirs in the world. The guts went from inside the sheep to the cleaning tubs down in the Gut Room within about ten minutes. None of them were thrown away.
The Gut Room was a Peter Howson wet dream - lit only by small skylights and dim incandescent bulbs high above, permanently clouded with steam, with half-ton wheeled tubs full of bloody hot water and steaming writhing intestines pushed around by the biggest workers in the plant, the chargehand being a shaven-headed guy who looked like Mongo in "Blazing Saddles". Huge racks of warm wet pink guts dripping after going through the tubs. About 20,000 sets of guts per day. Overwhelming vomity sh*tty grassy pong of tons of sheep gut contents. But boy was it clean. (I was on the sheep side, didn't see much of the cattle processing; seemed a more relaxed process as it took much longer to dismantle each animal).
The problem with beef gut as I understand it is that free-range cattle tend to eat sharp things that scar the intestine, leading to longitudinally uneven density and elasticity. You want battery-farmed cattle if you're going to use their guts for cellos.
Jack, that would make an amazing video - but probably quite disturbing to watch. Wonderful description.
If you think gut strings are expensive for fiddles, spare a thought for harpists. Gut harp strings vary from just under £5 to just under £20 each - making a full set of about 26 (minus the metal ones at the bottom) f...ing expensive.
I think I'll take up the Ocarina. It's cheaper to maintain and transport, but then again someone is bound to point out that they're made out of Meerkat skulls or something.
"For you vegetarians out there don't forget that surgical sutures are still being made from the finest sheep gut."
They may still be manufactured but they are rarely used as synthetic alternatives are said to be better.
Moreover, following a report by the Scientific Committee on Medicinal Products and Medical Devices in 1998, outlining the risk of Transmissible Spongiform Encephalopathies(TSE), they are no longer used in the EU. Japan has also prohibited their use.
Are gut strings for fiddle really all that expensive compared with synthetic core? Generally, I don't think so. First, I must admit that covered gut strings are well up there with the higher priced synthetics, probably because they use similar hi-tech manufacturing techniques. However, plain gut, which imo give a superior tone and projection to anything else including wound gut, is significantly less expensive.
On my orchestral violin I have a full set of Savarez gut strings; the top three of which are oiled plain gut, and the G is copper round-wound gut (no getting away from the wound G). The cost of the set on-line (next-day delivery) is £43.98 + postage - but the strings are double length, so what I have on the violin is £22 worth. The gut E lasts about 6-8 weeks steady playing maybe before fraying sets in, but a double-length Savarez E is less than £8. If I don't want to go down the gut E route then I use a Goldbrokat E (at £1.32!), as I do on my other violin where I am currently using up some Pirastro Chorda gut strings. For the lower strings manufacturers seem to be talking about 250 hours playing per string, but that obviously depends on how they are played and treated. For myself I reckon about 6 months for the plain A and D, and about 12 months for the G (the G never gets as much work as the upper strings).
Trevor - you said your orchestral violin - so I guess these strings
haven't worked out for Trad sessions. I recall you saying one time
you were using the exact opposite - Spirocore Heavies!
Hup, I am indeed using gut strings on my session fiddle (Jay Haide) - they are the Pirastro Chordas I mentioned in my previous post. When they've had their day I'll probably see how Savarez gut work out on the Jay Haide, otherwise I'll put Chordas back on. I prefer Savarez over Chorda on my orchestral violin, but there's not a lot in it.
Over the years I have indeed tried metal core strings, including Spirocore, Helicore, and Pirastro's Chromcor (probably the best of the three) but they didn't improve the response or projection (loudness under the ear, possibly yes). I didn't really enjoy the experience so I stopped using them. I've played a variety of synthetics over the years, and the best of them for me is without doubt Obligato. I've tried Evahs but didn't get on with them, even after a couple of months (a fair trial I'd say). I really didn't like the high tension which didn't seem all that far from that of metal core and their almost unnatural brilliance. They were also difficult to play quietly, an important consideration in orchestral playing. For the last couple of years I've been using gut on my orchestral violin - Eudoxa, Chorda, and now Savarez.
(I say Savarez "gut" because Savarez also make the synthetic core Corelli brand).
Gut strings: I suppose the nearest the veg gut strings are nylon strings (as per the ones used on the classical six string devil). On the ukes I use Aquilla NylGut which are synthetic gut and a way bit better than old nylon.
I had a set of real 'catgut' strings once on my Treble Uke and they sounded fabulous but had a very limited life; fraying after a couple of weeks use.
But can one purchase kosher or halal real gut strings? Or maybe kosher or halal bodhrans?
Very good article, vlnplyr! Although Performaxxstrings is talking about gut strings for tennis rackets, this quote is very relevant to violin strings, especially the bit about performance life. That was my experience many years ago when I used gut strings on my cello, and today my plain gut violin strings seem to be behaving the same way.
[Quote starts]
There are two types of durability we should talk about; resistance to breakage, and performance life. Most synthetic strings are very tough, have a very high tensile strength, and normally are significantly more break resistant. However, gut has a different set of elasticity characteristics, which makes it resist fatigue much better. Typically, natural gut has a much longer performance life; in fact, they usually play well up to the time they break. To quote an all-time tennis great "gut plays best on the shot before it breaks, "Synthetic gut" strings will normally lose performance very rapidly, but will stay in the racquet without breakage for a very long time. One Pro summed it up very well, he said, "Gut has the integrity to retire before its game starts to suffer."
[End quote]
How strings are made
How strings are made
An interesting blog about a tour of D'Addario's string-making factory, including an interview with its Director of Research & Development:
http://www.violinist.com/blog/laurie/20118/12542/
# Posted on August 13th 2011 by Trevor Jennings
Re: How strings are made
Hey Trevor, does the tour include a visit to the Cat Home, next door?
# Posted on August 13th 2011 by Ptarmigan
Re: How strings are made
You know the origin of the term "catgut" right, Ptarmy? Nothing to do with cats. I'll post if people are interested, but it's been put up here so often, maybe it's boring by now ...
# Posted on August 13th 2011 by ethical blend
Re: How strings are made
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1aYaHEl9Rg
# Posted on August 13th 2011 by piobagusfidil
Re: How strings are made
...not for the faint hearted mind!
# Posted on August 13th 2011 by piobagusfidil
Re: How strings are made
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_Cwe_pz0Uo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kv8M3LEVotU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKe2N1ddfuw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYX1BcDqZoo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KkE1ocwNmm0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qCdtEeqZxYg
# Posted on August 13th 2011 by piobagusfidil
Re: How strings are made
I stand to be corrected, but I don't think D'Addario make gut strings, for sale at any rate, although I expect they know all about the physics and technology.
Ptarmi, I use gut strings, so every time I drive past a field of sheep I say "thank you".
# Posted on August 13th 2011 by Trevor Jennings
Re: How strings are made
Trevor, good to know that at least one person saw the funny side of that post. ... Oh & yes, I am a Dog person!
# Posted on August 13th 2011 by Ptarmigan
Re: How strings are made
I thought it was funny, right enough. It's just that some people actually do think that "catgut" comes from cats. That, plus I think the real reason it's called "catgut" is interesting. That probably just means I'm a boring person, I think.
# Posted on August 13th 2011 by ethical blend
Re: How strings are made
Come on ethical, we all know it comes from that old expression:
"Cat Gut your Tongue!"
# Posted on August 13th 2011 by Ptarmigan
Re: How strings are made
Very good. You'll force a smile if you're not careful.
# Posted on August 13th 2011 by ethical blend
Re: How strings are made
Hey, there was a time when I thought it came from cats.
# Posted on August 13th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: How strings are made
Sheep gut isn't the only gut material being used today. Gamut Strings
(http://gamutmusic.squarespace.com/) in the USA are now producing a range of beef gut strings - the raw material comes from Ireland.
Beef gut is seen as a speciality in the gut string world; it stabilizes and holds pitch a little better than sheep gut, the tone is described as being clearer and brighter than sheep gut of equal gauge, and it has a higher tensile strength than sheep gut, so is useful for instruments requiring extra durability. Beef gut strings are provided for the violin E and A, and for a number of viols, lutes and harps. [This information is on the Gamut website.]
# Posted on August 13th 2011 by Trevor Jennings
Re: How strings are made
I still do.
Big ones.
Their decline corresponds to the mass uptake of guitars, fiddles etc. in the postwar era of prosperity.
"*****x!", I hear you cry.
But if I transferred this into some era of ancient history and expounded it, breathless, on the telly in some brooding archaeological hell-hole, I'd be feted for my bold insight and originality.
# Posted on August 13th 2011 by nicholas
Re: How strings are made
Back in the dim and distant past, when I was a Biological Sciences technician in the University, it was a truth universally expounded that if you wanted a good sample of sheeps' gut not to wait until the animal was dead, as they decompose remarkably quickly.
Not a lot of people want to know that.
So, my congratulations to anyone who can make anything useful out of sheep gut, because I certainly couldn't.
# Posted on August 13th 2011 by Guernsey Pete
Re: How strings are made
Do they make vegetarian gut strings?
(gets hat and exits)
# Posted on August 13th 2011 by c.g.
Re: How strings are made
Pete - glad I decided not to go into bio sci. As an undergrad I
saw something similar that totally put me off the idea
# Posted on August 14th 2011 by Hup
Re: How strings are made
"if you wanted a good sample of sheeps' gut not to wait until the animal was dead, as they decompose remarkably quickly"
Not with normal commercial processing. I spent a a summer working in one of the largest abattoirs in the world. The guts went from inside the sheep to the cleaning tubs down in the Gut Room within about ten minutes. None of them were thrown away.
The Gut Room was a Peter Howson wet dream - lit only by small skylights and dim incandescent bulbs high above, permanently clouded with steam, with half-ton wheeled tubs full of bloody hot water and steaming writhing intestines pushed around by the biggest workers in the plant, the chargehand being a shaven-headed guy who looked like Mongo in "Blazing Saddles". Huge racks of warm wet pink guts dripping after going through the tubs. About 20,000 sets of guts per day. Overwhelming vomity sh*tty grassy pong of tons of sheep gut contents. But boy was it clean. (I was on the sheep side, didn't see much of the cattle processing; seemed a more relaxed process as it took much longer to dismantle each animal).
The problem with beef gut as I understand it is that free-range cattle tend to eat sharp things that scar the intestine, leading to longitudinally uneven density and elasticity. You want battery-farmed cattle if you're going to use their guts for cellos.
# Posted on August 14th 2011 by Jack Campin
Re: How strings are made
These videos are fascinating.
Thanks everyone for posting.
# Posted on August 14th 2011 by SandyBottoms
Re: How strings are made
Jack, vivid description! It should be written into an episode of The Archers
# Posted on August 14th 2011 by Trevor Jennings
Re: How strings are made
Jack, that would make an amazing video - but probably quite disturbing to watch. Wonderful description.
If you think gut strings are expensive for fiddles, spare a thought for harpists. Gut harp strings vary from just under £5 to just under £20 each - making a full set of about 26 (minus the metal ones at the bottom) f...ing expensive.
I think I'll take up the Ocarina. It's cheaper to maintain and transport, but then again someone is bound to point out that they're made out of Meerkat skulls or something.
# Posted on August 14th 2011 by Mark Harmer
Re: How strings are made
For you vegetarians out there don't forget that surgical sutures are still being made from the finest sheep gut.
# Posted on August 14th 2011 by Trevor Jennings
Re: How strings are made
"For you vegetarians out there don't forget that surgical sutures are still being made from the finest sheep gut."
They may still be manufactured but they are rarely used as synthetic alternatives are said to be better.
Moreover, following a report by the Scientific Committee on Medicinal Products and Medical Devices in 1998, outlining the risk of Transmissible Spongiform Encephalopathies(TSE), they are no longer used in the EU. Japan has also prohibited their use.
# Posted on August 14th 2011 by Weejie
Re: How strings are made
Are gut strings for fiddle really all that expensive compared with synthetic core? Generally, I don't think so. First, I must admit that covered gut strings are well up there with the higher priced synthetics, probably because they use similar hi-tech manufacturing techniques. However, plain gut, which imo give a superior tone and projection to anything else including wound gut, is significantly less expensive.
On my orchestral violin I have a full set of Savarez gut strings; the top three of which are oiled plain gut, and the G is copper round-wound gut (no getting away from the wound G). The cost of the set on-line (next-day delivery) is £43.98 + postage - but the strings are double length, so what I have on the violin is £22 worth. The gut E lasts about 6-8 weeks steady playing maybe before fraying sets in, but a double-length Savarez E is less than £8. If I don't want to go down the gut E route then I use a Goldbrokat E (at £1.32!), as I do on my other violin where I am currently using up some Pirastro Chorda gut strings. For the lower strings manufacturers seem to be talking about 250 hours playing per string, but that obviously depends on how they are played and treated. For myself I reckon about 6 months for the plain A and D, and about 12 months for the G (the G never gets as much work as the upper strings).
# Posted on August 14th 2011 by Trevor Jennings
Re: How strings are made
Trevor - you said your orchestral violin - so I guess these strings
haven't worked out for Trad sessions. I recall you saying one time
you were using the exact opposite - Spirocore Heavies!
# Posted on August 15th 2011 by Hup
Re: How strings are made
Hup, I am indeed using gut strings on my session fiddle (Jay Haide) - they are the Pirastro Chordas I mentioned in my previous post. When they've had their day I'll probably see how Savarez gut work out on the Jay Haide, otherwise I'll put Chordas back on. I prefer Savarez over Chorda on my orchestral violin, but there's not a lot in it.
Over the years I have indeed tried metal core strings, including Spirocore, Helicore, and Pirastro's Chromcor (probably the best of the three) but they didn't improve the response or projection (loudness under the ear, possibly yes). I didn't really enjoy the experience so I stopped using them. I've played a variety of synthetics over the years, and the best of them for me is without doubt Obligato. I've tried Evahs but didn't get on with them, even after a couple of months (a fair trial I'd say). I really didn't like the high tension which didn't seem all that far from that of metal core and their almost unnatural brilliance. They were also difficult to play quietly, an important consideration in orchestral playing. For the last couple of years I've been using gut on my orchestral violin - Eudoxa, Chorda, and now Savarez.
(I say Savarez "gut" because Savarez also make the synthetic core Corelli brand).
# Posted on August 15th 2011 by Trevor Jennings
Veg/ Kosher/ Halal Gut Strings...
Gut strings: I suppose the nearest the veg gut strings are nylon strings (as per the ones used on the classical six string devil). On the ukes I use Aquilla NylGut which are synthetic gut and a way bit better than old nylon.
I had a set of real 'catgut' strings once on my Treble Uke and they sounded fabulous but had a very limited life; fraying after a couple of weeks use.
But can one purchase kosher or halal real gut strings? Or maybe kosher or halal bodhrans?
# Posted on August 15th 2011 by yhaalhouse
Re: How strings are made
Here is a source for gut strings.
Harp strings, upright bass, perhaps others.
And of course tennis racquet strings.
http://www.performaxxstrings.com
vlnplyr
# Posted on August 15th 2011 by vlnplyr
Re: How strings are made
Very good article, vlnplyr! Although Performaxxstrings is talking about gut strings for tennis rackets, this quote is very relevant to violin strings, especially the bit about performance life. That was my experience many years ago when I used gut strings on my cello, and today my plain gut violin strings seem to be behaving the same way.
[Quote starts]
There are two types of durability we should talk about; resistance to breakage, and performance life. Most synthetic strings are very tough, have a very high tensile strength, and normally are significantly more break resistant. However, gut has a different set of elasticity characteristics, which makes it resist fatigue much better. Typically, natural gut has a much longer performance life; in fact, they usually play well up to the time they break. To quote an all-time tennis great "gut plays best on the shot before it breaks, "Synthetic gut" strings will normally lose performance very rapidly, but will stay in the racquet without breakage for a very long time. One Pro summed it up very well, he said, "Gut has the integrity to retire before its game starts to suffer."
[End quote]
# Posted on August 16th 2011 by Trevor Jennings
Any good idea how to spend the weekend?
Hello Guys!
Any good idea from someone how to spend the weekend in KL? I am still enough new in time boring without friends.
Write me if you feel like,
# Posted on August 26th 2011 by ensueDura
Stoliki kawowe
<IMG>http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/5041/98784413.gif</IMG>;
# Posted on August 30th 2011 by Peenuecypetly
Seo
<IMG>http://img641.imageshack.us/img641/1976/70036834.gif</IMG>; I like beer! .
# Posted on September 2nd 2011 by NenAgemokek