I'd like to hear the opinions of you "authentic" Irish traditional musicians about the streaming videos of "authentic sessions" on this LiveTrad link: http://www.livetrad.com/video/
Ine one video, Marcelo, a Galician percussionist, plays the "pandero" which is apparently that square, thin box he uses to keep the rhythm. On the tune set 'McGivney's Favourite' and The Bird's Hornpipe' he plays what looks to me like a regular tambourine.
These videos are played by what I assume are "authentic" trad. musicians" in Grange (Sligo) Ireland. I've been playing and listening to trad. music for a long time, and these videos sound lovely to me (with the exception of the tambourine, which made me cringe a bit). I'm willing to admit that my ear is probably not trained well enough to hear the difference between truly great trad. music and crap. So, here's my point:
I read discussions quite often on this very website concerning the evils and horrors of bodhrans or anything else even slightly resembling a percussion instrument being played in sessions. Knowing that, I was stunned to see a tambourine seemingly accepted in a "real Irish session".
So, what gives? Is this particular percussionist so famous in Ireland that he can get away with tapping along on non-traditional percussive instruments without getting lynched? Is the disdain for percussion instruments simmering down over there in Ireland? Is this the new fad in trad. music... or maybe just in the Sligo area? Please help me understand when - and why - percussion instruments seem to be sometimes welcome in sessions but most often not.
I don't know a lot about this music, but on my Chieftains and Kevin Burke cd's, and also on some Altan recordings, i hear percussionists. But from what i've learned, most of the times it's the "musician" that's the problem, not the instrument. But in this case, i guess the majority here would say the instrument is the problem, not the musician. But me? I'm not saying anything. I'm not an "authentic" traditional musician. I'm just a lowly fiddle learner.
The world of sessions is a very broad one, and what is encountered in one session might very well not be encountered in another. What one might find outside the pale, another might find perfectly acceptable. Variety is the spice of life.
If the players in the session accept him, then there's no problem. If he plays in the pub down the road, and they don't accept him, then there is a problem. Which is more or less what Al's saying above. I'm never comfortable with the word "authentic" in traditional music.
Bear in mind that the video linked to above was filmed as part of the Celtic Fringe Festival.
Both "Celtic" and "Fringe" hint at why a pandero and tambourine might be tolerated.
It's not unusual for a session to welcome a visitor, a guest, and politely permit them to play along on whatever instrument they've brought. As long as it's in time, in tune, and not overly loud, lots of noisemakers will be accepted. Especially if it's just a one-off thing. Patience may wear thin if the noise becomes regular, weekly.
Case in point: We once had a guy play his "invisible harmonica" at our session. He cupped his hands and wailed into them, pretending to play harmonica. We put up with it the first time (at the end of the evening, and just for a set or two). When he tried it again next week, we told him to stop.
@ Kenny = Interesting comment about being uncomfortable with the word "authentic" in traditional music. Can you explain further what you mean? From reading some of the discussions on this website, I get the impression that only "authentic" trad music is good.... and everything else is crap.
On the other hand, I've often wondered why "some" new styles in trad. music are embraced and celebrated while others are considered trad.music blasphemy.
Ah... We're back to discussing kettle drums played by ponytailed gents in sleeveless tees and leather trou accompanying young women in evening gowns.......
Heh, since you're asking Kenny to explain, maybe you could explain too what you meant by "authentic trad. musicians."
I ignored that "authentic" bit because it tends to be meaningless. Sure, we all think we know "authentic" when we hear it, but it's damn hard to define.
I'll go out on a limb and suggest that you've mischaracterized what you've heard here. It's more likely that people here *prefer* straight traditional playing, as opposed to the more avant garde or fusion stuff. But there's plenty of music beyond the pure drop that isn't "crap." Just not the local cup of tea, for the most part.
For example, to some ears, the Chieftains are over-arranged and orchestrated, and that makes them less than authentic. But hardly crap. Similarly, Lunasa's use of the bass (and distortion on at least one of their albums) makes them "fusion." But hardly crap. In both cases, the players are clearly rooted in the tradition, have tremendous chops, and are clear about what they're doing with the music.
In contrast, the Corrs aren't so clearly rooted in the tradition, and have scant chops. They too are clear about what they're doing with the music--selling it to the widest audience they can reach (which isn't itself a bad thing). But their music is far from "authentic." And from a musician's perspective, they're crap with the tunes because their professionalism as pop musicians doesn't carry over into learning to play in a traditional style. And yet they play tunes as part of their shows and albums.
So it's possible to distinguish between "authentic" and otherwise without calling any of it crap. And it's possible to identify crap when it smells that way.
The "regular tambourine" is well documented as a traditional Irish instrument back to the early 19th century and well into living memory (somebody posted some video here of a documentary of Traveller musicians playing it in the 1960s at a race meeting or something). There is also an image of a Scottish woman playing it, accompanying a fiddler who is probably her husband, from the early 19th century - she's holding it in exactly the same way as depicted on the mosaics of Pompeii and as still played today in the Middle East.
There are of course a hell of a lot of really crap tambourine players. So? - there are a hell of a lot of really crap players of any instrument you could name. If the orthodoxy in Montana says it's un-Irish, maybe Montana has a problem.
I'm also uncomfortable with the word "authentic" as it must be authentic to something, but authentic to what? The way Irish trad music was played in Ireland in the 1950s? 1900s? 1850s? Go back far enough you haven't a clue, but whatever it was, it wasn't the pub session as we know it, since that has only become the dominant paradigm of Irish trad music from the 1950s/60s onwards. Better start getting those 1930s-style ceili bands going again. If "authentic" means "old," than that's what we should be aiming for, if indeed authenticity is our goal. For most of the regular posters on thesession.org, it's not.
If you're using this website as a gauge of opinion, you're dealing with what a rather small but vocal in our wee corner of the internet crowd, many of whom prefer the music played in a certain way in the context of a pub session. If you look beyond thesession.org, there's a tremendous amount of experimentation of and fusion with other genres of music amongst many of the gliterati of Irish and Scottish music. Like the stuff done by Afro-Celt Sound System, Kila, Salsa Celtica, Peatbog Faeries, Treacherous Orchestra, Moving Hearts, Wolfstone, Flook and Lunasa (to a lesser degree). That's all fine and good but while djembes, saxophones, and jazz rhythms and chords might work well in a band, where the music is carefully arranged and rehearsed, it all goes down rather less well in a session. That said, you have to get your head around the fact that the "rules" of a session are whatever its members want (or grudgingly accept) them to be. So the session in the pub down the road might welcome anyone playing anything on anything with open arms while my session prefers you to have at least some basic competency at playing the tunes.
It is all about balance. Too much experimentation, and bringing in other musical styles, and you lose focus, too little variety, and you become stagnant and rigid. Every gathering has to find that 'sweet spot' that makes the music a joyful experience.
Howdy, Jack! D'ya supposen we could git along like flies on sh*t ifn' I lived up ta yer steree-o-types about us Montuckians? Right as rain, I wear snakeskin cow-rustler boots, a big ol' 10-gallon hat, and a pair of Colt 45s. I ride an ol' paint and sleep on the ground on my horse blanket. Darn tootin'! Why I must be dumb as a dead coyote to pretend I know anythin' 'bout this here Oirish musik.
It's terribly easy to insult someone for saying something they did say, eh?
I never said that tambourine was "un-Irish." (What the hell does that even mean?)
But they're not particularly common at sessions nowadays, in Ireland or elsewhere. Thank goodness.
Will your description sounds more West Texas than Montana...
My freinds in Montana never met that description. Very civil group up there I've found. Seriously.
This seems to be going into the dichotomy of maintaining the tradition and making music palatable so there is broader interests in it.
Will I am with you on Chieftans and Lunasa. They earned the traditional cred and transended so they raise the interest in the music so the serious folks can survive.....
but then there are the Elders, guys in dago-tees beating kettle drums, Gaelic Storm doing Broadway and such. Don't quite know where Irish show bands fit into the scheme of things
zippy, I was going for a taste of Yosemite Sam, figuring that was Mr. Campin's image of me.
And yes, Montana is such a lovely place that it draws people from all over the world who visit, then stay and make it home. So despite being The Big Empty, far removed from the center of all-things-wise-and-cultured over there in the UK, Montana is also home to a surprisingly educated, enlightened, well-traveled, unorthodox bunch of folks. Seriously.
Aargghh, just saw my typo in my earlier response to Mr. Campin.
What I meant was "It's terribly easy to insult someone for saying something they ***didn't*** say, eh?"
Campin's jab is the sort of sh*te that Jeremy too often lets slide, and then he's surprised when the discussion derails and otherwise pleasant people resort to retaliation. Meh.
Sorry, but the implication that a Montanan couldn't possibly know anything about this music is baseless chauvinism (in its original sense).
Will, there wasn't anything the least bit wrong with my air harmonica playing. In fact it put all the rest of you to shame. (FWIW, I have to say: Missoula was nice; fishing at Flathead Lake was fine; Glacier National Park is spectacular; and floating on one's back in Lake McDonald, is the best way to watch an electrical storm waaaaay up on The-Going-To-The-Sun Highway.) Next year: Air Pipes in Montana!
Well Ive never met a tambourine player at a session here in Ireland...... Maybe I should get out more?
In fact Ive never actually met a tambourine player!! is that sad?
So I cant say they get stick at the sessions....
In fact Its very rare IME to encounter a bigoted session, that would 'ban' you for playing an unusual instrument or one they have a grudge against.. I guess it must be the crowds I hang around with eh? cos actually I find it repugnant and wierd that a bodhran player might be condemned 'because' of the instrument he plays. I mean maybe Im just lucky but IME its unknown for a bodhran player [unless they were really crap, insistent , out of time, obnoxious and rude as well, likely drunk and laery] to get so much as an look out of place, well ok someone new walking in , with an instrument case that looks suspiciously like a Bodhran, guitar, banjo, Paolo Soprano ... etc. etc etc might.....
I suppose it doesnt matter what instrument you play, either you fit in, or you dont.
But I think what IS relevant is how well you can play your instrument and how adaptable and sensitive you are as a musician, and therefore , as a character. At the same time there are situations when the ability to persist , keep a steady course and be deflected by nothing is whats needed so I guess its about finding a[the] balance [point] in music and human interactions in general.
Now shakey eggs!... thats another story, they can sneak in and be amongst you all without anyone realising the session has been infiltrated!
. But anyhow enough of that blather , you cant be serious mr 1/4 Irish can you?.... your having a laugh ....this thread is a wind up isnt it?
Yeah, that was my point up above. As you say, most sessions are welcoming and polite, everybody gets along.
But I've seen players ask people to stop their disruptive behavior. Like you say: playing out of time, too loud, or just plain annoying. I've seen session anchors have a word with the drunken spoons or bones players who come in every week for their free pints as musicians and then rattle away on every set. An hour on, it gets to grating on your teeth, and so someone usually puts an end to it.
I've never run into an actual tambourine at a session, but I've heard trusted sources say it happens, and the jangles are simply too much of a racket so someone eventually balls up and asks the jangling to stop.
I would , did you see that little off beat trill she does in the intro with the fingers of her left hand on a set of jingles! class playing. But does she play Irish Music?
Home from work. Thought I could get around his master's IT Nazis then found out Verizon filters. Damn...I am on my own server so I can call people IT Nazis. Forgot there is no privacy. So much for the first Amendment
Will
Herself is dying to get to Glacier. It's just that we are stuck with the American version of RyanAir-United Continental....
Any good Sessions in Kalispell?
Forget the air pipes. I'll bring my box and play real reeds
"Ine one video, Marcelo, a Galician percussionist, plays the "pandero" which is apparently that square, thin box he uses to keep the rhythm. On the tune set 'McGivney's Favourite' and The Bird's Hornpipe' he plays what looks to me like a regular tambourine. "
He's playing the pandero (or pandeiro) in both those clips (these are the sessions in "J Waters, Grange, Co Sligo). The "square thin box" he is playing in the 'Strike the Gay Harp/Willy Clancy's' set is actually a frame with a skin stretched over it (called an 'adufe' in Portugal). It's a medieval instrument with earlier Arabic origins. The other instrument is indeed a tambourine, but it's also called a pandero in Spain.
The modern pandeiro is a Brazilian instrument with a tunable head and cupped jingles, but it's basically a tambourine.
You can see an adufe being made here:
It's been said above, but yes, the tambourine has a longer history in ITM than the bodhran.
But what's the fuss? These recordings are rather nice, IMHO.
RonP and I think "The Silver Spear" might remember a session in Mullagh a couple of years ago which included a tambourine. I don't think it's an experience we'd like to repeat.
There's a theory that the first Bodhrans in Ireland, were the Tambourines of the travelling Salvation Army bands, back in the mid 1800s ... if so, they have a lot to answer for!
Yes Kenny, I remember that session only too well, and still carry the mental scars from it - any noise that sounds anything close to a tambourine and I start to twitch and look for the nearest exit!
"Authenticity" is best judged by those people who are, by consensus, considered authorities on authenticity.
It sounds like a circular definition, but it's not really all that circular when you think about it. At each point, the people who are considered "authentic" get some form and degree of blessing from the people who came before them. If that person starts abusing the terms under which the blessing is given, it's gradually retracted. The more people consider you an authority on authenticity, the more credibility your opinion has when it comes to the authenticity of other people (and of course, there are tons of little microcosms of authority, all of whom likely have as many different opinions as they have similar ones).
That blessing can be given gradually, and for any number of reasons... Maybe you're a terrible musician (and you play an electric mandolin), but you grew up in Connemara speaking Irish and going to sessions as a young child, and you talk far too much... Or maybe you're an incredible musician from China, who's never been to Ireland, yet plays traditional music like Michael Coleman, but you've only showed up on the scene last tuesday (and have little understanding of the pace of sessions). In spite of being a better musician, the latter person may get less credibility than the former--or it might go the other way around, depending on what those whose opinions you respect think about either person. There's nothing cut-and-dried about it. Some will prefer the Chinese fiddler, some will prefer the Irish one; some will prefer the spanish tambourinist to both of them.
Nearly everybody has some opinion of everybody else (though the nicer people are better at keeping those opinions polite when they get negative), but if you are concerned about authenticity, you give extra weight to the opinions of people in whom you invest more authority. If Paddy Cronin, Tommy Peoples, Liam O'Connor, James Kelly, Dick Miles, Martin Hayes, Liz Carroll, George Keith, the singer from the Elders, or The local Irish-American barfly say something about someone, it matters only as much as you vest in the relevance of their specific opinion.
The question "how do I become authentic?" is a really popular undercurrent here. So many people seem to want a recipe: "Do this, don't do that." But in the end, it's really all about what the people whose opinions you respect think. "Do This, Don't Do That" is really just some people's best guess at a formula that (hopefully) will help you endear yourself to those people who you admire; it's neither necessary nor sufficient to actually get you the credibility you might seek.
Which is pretty much how it works in real life, no?
Lots of interesting comments here - thanks for everyone's input! Oh, by the way, piobagusfidi - it's MS. Quarter Irish - not Mr. Quarter Irish. And yes, my question was genuine and not meant as any kind of wind-up.
Some of my "problem" might be that I've always assumed that traditional Irish music (or ANY traditional music for that matter) is defined as tunes or songs that are 75 or more years old that have been played and passed down from generation to generation. From reading heated debates on this site I now understand that BEING a traditional musician and PLAYING traditional music are two different things... to the point where I nearly feel unworthy to play any longer!
I think Al Brown said it best - "It is all about balance. Too much experimentation, and bringing in other musical styles, and you lose focus, too little variety, and you become stagnant and rigid. Every gathering has to find that 'sweet spot' that makes the music a joyful experience.".
Eleanor Roosevelt said "No one can make you feel inferior [or "unworthy"] without your consent." So don't let us folks on the Yellow Submarine stop you!
It's easy to get caught up in the depth and mythology of this tradition--that people kept the music in spite of oppression, and that it represents a larger cultural whole including the language and social customs and norms, with religion mixed in, and an overwhelming sense of place. But this music is also "just tunes," in the sense that Robert Frost intended when, after a prolonged, grandiose introduction for one of his readings, he stepped to the podium and said, "They're just poems."
Playing traditional music may not morph you into a traditional musician, but you cannot get there unless you play traditional music. So get to it!
"...Paddy Cronin, Tommy Peoples, Liam O'Connor, James Kelly, Dick Miles, Martin Hayes, Liz Carroll, George Keith, the singer from the Elders, or The local Irish-American barfly..."
That is quite the list you have assembled there, Georgi. I had to read it twice before I saw what you were getting at!
Good, thoughtful, comment!
I like Georgi's point to, but I don't wholly agree with it.
Actually, it's *not* just how much you or I vests in the relevance of someone else's opinion. What matters is how much you *and* I and then many other people vest in those opinions. Because that's how "authenticity" is determined--collectively. (It's why the stock markets are on a rollercoaster right now.) Very few human actions are based on facts, so we shape social norms and realities around belief in vague things like "authenticity" and "leadership" and S&P assessed valuation.
"Actually, it's *not* just how much you or I vests in the relevance of someone else's opinion. What matters is how much you *and* I and then many other people vest in those opinions. Because that's how "authenticity" is determined--collectively. "
Well, yeah, that's pretty much exactly what I said... Except I put much more of the assessment power in the hands of a few people with respected authority (who, themselves were effectively elected with the consent of prior authorities).
If I told you that QuarterIrish was an authentic traditional musician, I doubt it would mean as much as it would if James Kelly said so.
Similarly, if some self-styled Irish Musicians Association in Middle-America, which had relatively few members that were recognized authorities on traditional Irish music decided to give out some awards for "best traditional musician" and such, based on international popular vote with little heed paid to the credentials of the voters, the winners of those awards mightn't have the as much credible authenticity as they would had they been chosen by, say a committee of more respected authorities on traditional music...
Those same hypothetical winners of that not-so-prestigious-and-maybe-not-so-hypothetical "Middle American Best Musician" award will splash these new credentials over their next CDs. Is this an especially US trait? Does this happen in other countries? Do they have only prestigious music contests? The US has a number of people who, though they have only a slight talent, and only the shallowest understanding of The Music and the culture of which it's part, are publishing CDs left and right.
And to go back to an earlier part of the discussion;
how do you become authentic ? Authentic for when, and where, I would ask ?
I would suggest that, without there being an over-riding authority to pronounce ( and who would want that ? ), it lies in your own heart, to be as aware as possible of what has gone before in the music, and to try to play it as well as possible.
At this point I would like to say that young tearaways who play 25 notes to the second, and have forgotten about decoration and style, have lost the plot.
But then, I'm just an old fart. And only one half a quarter Irish.
"At this point I would like to say that young tearaways who play 25 notes to the second, and have forgotten about decoration and style, have lost the plot."
I used to be more worried about that... But after watching plenty of those young tearaways (I used to be one of them myself) get older and slow down, my faith in the young people is restored.
Yep, it's just a phase many people go through, at an age when their synapses can fire that fast and tendons and joints are willing. Father time ensures we all slow down before long....
If someone in Montana doesn't know anything about this music, then I guess that means there is no Hope at all for the lively and active Irish Sessions in Arkansas. We do our best to play the so-called "pure drop" with the instruments we have. We don't have any control over who shows up with what instrument at our local sessions. No one has ever brought a tambourine. Bodhrans yes but no tambourines.
Zippy, if you will let us know when you and your wife visit Montana, we will try to visit Montana at the same time so we can invade and temporarily take over the session in Helena. We had better not warn Will Harmon when we are coming to visit Helena, because he may try to run away and hide until we leave.
Yes there is a difference between feeling inferior and merely being small. Just look at my wife and her sisters. All three of them are vertically challenged but only one of the sisters feels so inferior that she has to overcompensate by trying to tell the rest of us how to ruin (run) our lives.
Baseless Chauvinism might be a good name for a band which has no bass player.
"There's a theory that the first Bodhrans in Ireland, were the Tambourines of the travelling Salvation Army bands, back in the mid 1800s ... if so, they have a lot to answer for!"
Other way round. Tambourine was a well established folk instrument across the whole of Europe, Ireland included, long before the Salvation Army existed. The Sallies adopted it *because* it was familiar in popular culture.
Seeking the opinions of trad. musicians
Seeking the opinions of trad. musicians
I'd like to hear the opinions of you "authentic" Irish traditional musicians about the streaming videos of "authentic sessions" on this LiveTrad link: http://www.livetrad.com/video/
Ine one video, Marcelo, a Galician percussionist, plays the "pandero" which is apparently that square, thin box he uses to keep the rhythm. On the tune set 'McGivney's Favourite' and The Bird's Hornpipe' he plays what looks to me like a regular tambourine.
These videos are played by what I assume are "authentic" trad. musicians" in Grange (Sligo) Ireland. I've been playing and listening to trad. music for a long time, and these videos sound lovely to me (with the exception of the tambourine, which made me cringe a bit). I'm willing to admit that my ear is probably not trained well enough to hear the difference between truly great trad. music and crap. So, here's my point:
I read discussions quite often on this very website concerning the evils and horrors of bodhrans or anything else even slightly resembling a percussion instrument being played in sessions. Knowing that, I was stunned to see a tambourine seemingly accepted in a "real Irish session".
So, what gives? Is this particular percussionist so famous in Ireland that he can get away with tapping along on non-traditional percussive instruments without getting lynched? Is the disdain for percussion instruments simmering down over there in Ireland? Is this the new fad in trad. music... or maybe just in the Sligo area? Please help me understand when - and why - percussion instruments seem to be sometimes welcome in sessions but most often not.
# Posted on August 8th 2011 by Quarter Irish
Re: Seeking the opinions of trad. musicians
I don't know a lot about this music, but on my Chieftains and Kevin Burke cd's, and also on some Altan recordings, i hear percussionists. But from what i've learned, most of the times it's the "musician" that's the problem, not the instrument. But in this case, i guess the majority here would say the instrument is the problem, not the musician. But me? I'm not saying anything. I'm not an "authentic" traditional musician. I'm just a lowly fiddle learner.
# Posted on August 8th 2011 by fiddlelearner
Re: Seeking the opinions of trad. musicians
The world of sessions is a very broad one, and what is encountered in one session might very well not be encountered in another. What one might find outside the pale, another might find perfectly acceptable. Variety is the spice of life.
# Posted on August 8th 2011 by AlBrown
Re: Seeking the opinions of trad. musicians
If the players in the session accept him, then there's no problem. If he plays in the pub down the road, and they don't accept him, then there is a problem. Which is more or less what Al's saying above. I'm never comfortable with the word "authentic" in traditional music.
# Posted on August 8th 2011 by Kenny
Re: Seeking the opinions of trad. musicians
Bear in mind that the video linked to above was filmed as part of the Celtic Fringe Festival.
Both "Celtic" and "Fringe" hint at why a pandero and tambourine might be tolerated.
It's not unusual for a session to welcome a visitor, a guest, and politely permit them to play along on whatever instrument they've brought. As long as it's in time, in tune, and not overly loud, lots of noisemakers will be accepted. Especially if it's just a one-off thing. Patience may wear thin if the noise becomes regular, weekly.
Case in point: We once had a guy play his "invisible harmonica" at our session. He cupped his hands and wailed into them, pretending to play harmonica. We put up with it the first time (at the end of the evening, and just for a set or two). When he tried it again next week, we told him to stop.
# Posted on August 8th 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: Seeking the opinions of trad. musicians
Check out the concertina and harmonica multitasking in this! http://www.livetrad.com/Videos/shoots2/index.php# - click on Set of Tunes 2 in the bottom right of the page
# Posted on August 8th 2011 by SmashTheWindows
Re: Seeking the opinions of trad. musicians
@ Kenny = Interesting comment about being uncomfortable with the word "authentic" in traditional music. Can you explain further what you mean? From reading some of the discussions on this website, I get the impression that only "authentic" trad music is good.... and everything else is crap.
On the other hand, I've often wondered why "some" new styles in trad. music are embraced and celebrated while others are considered trad.music blasphemy.
# Posted on August 8th 2011 by Quarter Irish
Re: Seeking the opinions of trad. musicians
Ah... We're back to discussing kettle drums played by ponytailed gents in sleeveless tees and leather trou accompanying young women in evening gowns.......
Sorry that was another thread in 2009.
# Posted on August 8th 2011 by zippydw
Re: Seeking the opinions of trad. musicians
Heh, since you're asking Kenny to explain, maybe you could explain too what you meant by "authentic trad. musicians."
I ignored that "authentic" bit because it tends to be meaningless. Sure, we all think we know "authentic" when we hear it, but it's damn hard to define.
I'll go out on a limb and suggest that you've mischaracterized what you've heard here. It's more likely that people here *prefer* straight traditional playing, as opposed to the more avant garde or fusion stuff. But there's plenty of music beyond the pure drop that isn't "crap." Just not the local cup of tea, for the most part.
For example, to some ears, the Chieftains are over-arranged and orchestrated, and that makes them less than authentic. But hardly crap. Similarly, Lunasa's use of the bass (and distortion on at least one of their albums) makes them "fusion." But hardly crap. In both cases, the players are clearly rooted in the tradition, have tremendous chops, and are clear about what they're doing with the music.
In contrast, the Corrs aren't so clearly rooted in the tradition, and have scant chops. They too are clear about what they're doing with the music--selling it to the widest audience they can reach (which isn't itself a bad thing). But their music is far from "authentic." And from a musician's perspective, they're crap with the tunes because their professionalism as pop musicians doesn't carry over into learning to play in a traditional style. And yet they play tunes as part of their shows and albums.
So it's possible to distinguish between "authentic" and otherwise without calling any of it crap. And it's possible to identify crap when it smells that way.
# Posted on August 8th 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: Seeking the opinions of trad. musicians
The "regular tambourine" is well documented as a traditional Irish instrument back to the early 19th century and well into living memory (somebody posted some video here of a documentary of Traveller musicians playing it in the 1960s at a race meeting or something). There is also an image of a Scottish woman playing it, accompanying a fiddler who is probably her husband, from the early 19th century - she's holding it in exactly the same way as depicted on the mosaics of Pompeii and as still played today in the Middle East.
There are of course a hell of a lot of really crap tambourine players. So? - there are a hell of a lot of really crap players of any instrument you could name. If the orthodoxy in Montana says it's un-Irish, maybe Montana has a problem.
# Posted on August 8th 2011 by Jack Campin
Re: Seeking the opinions of trad. musicians
I'm also uncomfortable with the word "authentic" as it must be authentic to something, but authentic to what? The way Irish trad music was played in Ireland in the 1950s? 1900s? 1850s? Go back far enough you haven't a clue, but whatever it was, it wasn't the pub session as we know it, since that has only become the dominant paradigm of Irish trad music from the 1950s/60s onwards. Better start getting those 1930s-style ceili bands going again. If "authentic" means "old," than that's what we should be aiming for, if indeed authenticity is our goal. For most of the regular posters on thesession.org, it's not.
If you're using this website as a gauge of opinion, you're dealing with what a rather small but vocal in our wee corner of the internet crowd, many of whom prefer the music played in a certain way in the context of a pub session. If you look beyond thesession.org, there's a tremendous amount of experimentation of and fusion with other genres of music amongst many of the gliterati of Irish and Scottish music. Like the stuff done by Afro-Celt Sound System, Kila, Salsa Celtica, Peatbog Faeries, Treacherous Orchestra, Moving Hearts, Wolfstone, Flook and Lunasa (to a lesser degree). That's all fine and good but while djembes, saxophones, and jazz rhythms and chords might work well in a band, where the music is carefully arranged and rehearsed, it all goes down rather less well in a session. That said, you have to get your head around the fact that the "rules" of a session are whatever its members want (or grudgingly accept) them to be. So the session in the pub down the road might welcome anyone playing anything on anything with open arms while my session prefers you to have at least some basic competency at playing the tunes.
# Posted on August 8th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Seeking the opinions of trad. musicians
I thought it was a pizza box he was banging on. The harp player is awesome though.
# Posted on August 8th 2011 by pipersgrip
Re: Seeking the opinions of trad. musicians
It is all about balance. Too much experimentation, and bringing in other musical styles, and you lose focus, too little variety, and you become stagnant and rigid. Every gathering has to find that 'sweet spot' that makes the music a joyful experience.
# Posted on August 8th 2011 by AlBrown
Re: Seeking the opinions of trad. musicians
I remember seeing the Elders use a synthesized accordion at the Chicago Celtic fest a few years ago....
But they are from Kansas City.....
# Posted on August 8th 2011 by zippydw
Re: Seeking the opinions of trad. musicians
Howdy, Jack! D'ya supposen we could git along like flies on sh*t ifn' I lived up ta yer steree-o-types about us Montuckians? Right as rain, I wear snakeskin cow-rustler boots, a big ol' 10-gallon hat, and a pair of Colt 45s. I ride an ol' paint and sleep on the ground on my horse blanket. Darn tootin'! Why I must be dumb as a dead coyote to pretend I know anythin' 'bout this here Oirish musik.
It's terribly easy to insult someone for saying something they did say, eh?
I never said that tambourine was "un-Irish." (What the hell does that even mean?)
But they're not particularly common at sessions nowadays, in Ireland or elsewhere. Thank goodness.
# Posted on August 8th 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: Seeking the opinions of trad. musicians
Actually, it was a korg synthesizing an accordion
# Posted on August 8th 2011 by zippydw
Re: Seeking the opinions of trad. musicians
Will your description sounds more West Texas than Montana...
My freinds in Montana never met that description. Very civil group up there I've found. Seriously.
This seems to be going into the dichotomy of maintaining the tradition and making music palatable so there is broader interests in it.
Will I am with you on Chieftans and Lunasa. They earned the traditional cred and transended so they raise the interest in the music so the serious folks can survive.....
but then there are the Elders, guys in dago-tees beating kettle drums, Gaelic Storm doing Broadway and such. Don't quite know where Irish show bands fit into the scheme of things
# Posted on August 8th 2011 by zippydw
Re: Seeking the opinions of trad. musicians
Oh man this site needs spell check...... Sorry for the spelling
# Posted on August 8th 2011 by zippydw
Re: Seeking the opinions of trad. musicians
zippy, I was going for a taste of Yosemite Sam, figuring that was Mr. Campin's image of me.
And yes, Montana is such a lovely place that it draws people from all over the world who visit, then stay and make it home. So despite being The Big Empty, far removed from the center of all-things-wise-and-cultured over there in the UK, Montana is also home to a surprisingly educated, enlightened, well-traveled, unorthodox bunch of folks. Seriously.
# Posted on August 8th 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: Seeking the opinions of trad. musicians
Aargghh, just saw my typo in my earlier response to Mr. Campin.
What I meant was "It's terribly easy to insult someone for saying something they ***didn't*** say, eh?"
Campin's jab is the sort of sh*te that Jeremy too often lets slide, and then he's surprised when the discussion derails and otherwise pleasant people resort to retaliation. Meh.
Sorry, but the implication that a Montanan couldn't possibly know anything about this music is baseless chauvinism (in its original sense).
# Posted on August 8th 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: Seeking the opinions of trad. musicians
Yes, I know a few die-hard Boulderites who think Montana might, just might, be awesome as well.
# Posted on August 8th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Seeking the opinions of trad. musicians
Dear lord, please don't tell them!
# Posted on August 8th 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: Seeking the opinions of trad. musicians
Will, there wasn't anything the least bit wrong with my air harmonica playing. In fact it put all the rest of you to shame. (FWIW, I have to say: Missoula was nice; fishing at Flathead Lake was fine; Glacier National Park is spectacular; and floating on one's back in Lake McDonald, is the best way to watch an electrical storm waaaaay up on The-Going-To-The-Sun Highway.) Next year: Air Pipes in Montana!
# Posted on August 9th 2011 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: Seeking the opinions of trad. musicians
Well Ive never met a tambourine player at a session here in Ireland...... Maybe I should get out more?
In fact Ive never actually met a tambourine player!! is that sad?
So I cant say they get stick at the sessions....
In fact Its very rare IME to encounter a bigoted session, that would 'ban' you for playing an unusual instrument or one they have a grudge against.. I guess it must be the crowds I hang around with eh? cos actually I find it repugnant and wierd that a bodhran player might be condemned 'because' of the instrument he plays. I mean maybe Im just lucky but IME its unknown for a bodhran player [unless they were really crap, insistent , out of time, obnoxious and rude as well, likely drunk and laery] to get so much as an look out of place, well ok someone new walking in , with an instrument case that looks suspiciously like a Bodhran, guitar, banjo, Paolo Soprano ... etc. etc etc might.....
I suppose it doesnt matter what instrument you play, either you fit in, or you dont.
But I think what IS relevant is how well you can play your instrument and how adaptable and sensitive you are as a musician, and therefore , as a character. At the same time there are situations when the ability to persist , keep a steady course and be deflected by nothing is whats needed so I guess its about finding a[the] balance [point] in music and human interactions in general.
Now shakey eggs!... thats another story, they can sneak in and be amongst you all without anyone realising the session has been infiltrated!
. But anyhow enough of that blather , you cant be serious mr 1/4 Irish can you?.... your having a laugh ....this thread is a wind up isnt it?
# Posted on August 9th 2011 by piobagusfidil
Re: Seeking the opinions of trad. musicians
Yeah, that was my point up above. As you say, most sessions are welcoming and polite, everybody gets along.
But I've seen players ask people to stop their disruptive behavior. Like you say: playing out of time, too loud, or just plain annoying. I've seen session anchors have a word with the drunken spoons or bones players who come in every week for their free pints as musicians and then rattle away on every set. An hour on, it gets to grating on your teeth, and so someone usually puts an end to it.
I've never run into an actual tambourine at a session, but I've heard trusted sources say it happens, and the jangles are simply too much of a racket so someone eventually balls up and asks the jangling to stop.
Here's a well-played tambourine, but I wouldn't want to listen to this all night at a session: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OlBxrpelaUE
# Posted on August 9th 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: Seeking the opinions of trad. musicians
I would , did you see that little off beat trill she does in the intro with the fingers of her left hand on a set of jingles! class playing. But does she play Irish Music?
# Posted on August 9th 2011 by piobagusfidil
Re: Seeking the opinions of trad. musicians
Yeah, I like the way she keeps the back beat going with left fingers hitting the jingles and dampening them.
Just not floating my boat for Irish tunes, though.
# Posted on August 9th 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: Seeking the opinions of trad. musicians
One musician to another: I find her running commentary a bit distracting.
# Posted on August 9th 2011 by BarryM
Re: Seeking the opinions of trad. musicians
Home from work. Thought I could get around his master's IT Nazis then found out Verizon filters. Damn...I am on my own server so I can call people IT Nazis. Forgot there is no privacy. So much for the first Amendment
Will
Herself is dying to get to Glacier. It's just that we are stuck with the American version of RyanAir-United Continental....
Any good Sessions in Kalispell?
Forget the air pipes. I'll bring my box and play real reeds
# Posted on August 9th 2011 by zippydw
Re: Seeking the opinions of trad. musicians
oh purpose of my post. The Verizon hassle got me off topic
The website in the first post...There is some really good stuff there. And yes...some less than orthodox ITM
But there are some really good things.
Think about it. Once upon a time a time, there were people playing the tunes- Only the 'Chunes". Someone was doing some great sean nos.
An instrument came in with a drone and maybe some little fid diddly on the the tonic, third or fifth
And we have Ballad style- near and dear to many immigrants.
Tommy Makem is somewhere smiling with Johnny O'leary next to him trying to play polkas.
Tambourines?
# Posted on August 9th 2011 by zippydw
Re: Seeking the opinions of trad. musicians
"Ine one video, Marcelo, a Galician percussionist, plays the "pandero" which is apparently that square, thin box he uses to keep the rhythm. On the tune set 'McGivney's Favourite' and The Bird's Hornpipe' he plays what looks to me like a regular tambourine. "
He's playing the pandero (or pandeiro) in both those clips (these are the sessions in "J Waters, Grange, Co Sligo). The "square thin box" he is playing in the 'Strike the Gay Harp/Willy Clancy's' set is actually a frame with a skin stretched over it (called an 'adufe' in Portugal). It's a medieval instrument with earlier Arabic origins. The other instrument is indeed a tambourine, but it's also called a pandero in Spain.
The modern pandeiro is a Brazilian instrument with a tunable head and cupped jingles, but it's basically a tambourine.
You can see an adufe being made here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6IczLKgWvWg
# Posted on August 9th 2011 by Weejie
Re: Seeking the opinions of trad. musicians
It's been said above, but yes, the tambourine has a longer history in ITM than the bodhran.
But what's the fuss? These recordings are rather nice, IMHO.
# Posted on August 9th 2011 by Alex Wilding
Re: Seeking the opinions of trad. musicians
RonP and I think "The Silver Spear" might remember a session in Mullagh a couple of years ago which included a tambourine. I don't think it's an experience we'd like to repeat.
# Posted on August 9th 2011 by Kenny
Re: Seeking the opinions of trad. musicians
There's a theory that the first Bodhrans in Ireland, were the Tambourines of the travelling Salvation Army bands, back in the mid 1800s ... if so, they have a lot to answer for!
Cheers
Dick
# Posted on August 9th 2011 by Ptarmigan
Re: Seeking the opinions of trad. musicians
http://www.bfs.org.uk/pan/historyoftheirishflute.pdf Second page. The caption mentions the "military style cap". is that what the Sally Army looked like in those days ?
# Posted on August 9th 2011 by David50
Re: Seeking the opinions of trad. musicians
Yes Kenny, I remember that session only too well, and still carry the mental scars from it - any noise that sounds anything close to a tambourine and I start to twitch and look for the nearest exit!
# Posted on August 9th 2011 by On Sabbatical
Re: Seeking the opinions of trad. musicians
I think I've blocked it.
# Posted on August 9th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Seeking the opinions of trad. musicians
@ David50 ... They looked like this:
http://chandrakantha.com/articles/tawaif/images/salvation_army.jpg
I do thank them for promoting the Concertina, but ....
Cheers,
Dick
# Posted on August 9th 2011 by Ptarmigan
Re: Seeking the opinions of trad. musicians
"Authenticity" is best judged by those people who are, by consensus, considered authorities on authenticity.
It sounds like a circular definition, but it's not really all that circular when you think about it. At each point, the people who are considered "authentic" get some form and degree of blessing from the people who came before them. If that person starts abusing the terms under which the blessing is given, it's gradually retracted. The more people consider you an authority on authenticity, the more credibility your opinion has when it comes to the authenticity of other people (and of course, there are tons of little microcosms of authority, all of whom likely have as many different opinions as they have similar ones).
That blessing can be given gradually, and for any number of reasons... Maybe you're a terrible musician (and you play an electric mandolin), but you grew up in Connemara speaking Irish and going to sessions as a young child, and you talk far too much... Or maybe you're an incredible musician from China, who's never been to Ireland, yet plays traditional music like Michael Coleman, but you've only showed up on the scene last tuesday (and have little understanding of the pace of sessions). In spite of being a better musician, the latter person may get less credibility than the former--or it might go the other way around, depending on what those whose opinions you respect think about either person. There's nothing cut-and-dried about it. Some will prefer the Chinese fiddler, some will prefer the Irish one; some will prefer the spanish tambourinist to both of them.
Nearly everybody has some opinion of everybody else (though the nicer people are better at keeping those opinions polite when they get negative), but if you are concerned about authenticity, you give extra weight to the opinions of people in whom you invest more authority. If Paddy Cronin, Tommy Peoples, Liam O'Connor, James Kelly, Dick Miles, Martin Hayes, Liz Carroll, George Keith, the singer from the Elders, or The local Irish-American barfly say something about someone, it matters only as much as you vest in the relevance of their specific opinion.
The question "how do I become authentic?" is a really popular undercurrent here. So many people seem to want a recipe: "Do this, don't do that." But in the end, it's really all about what the people whose opinions you respect think. "Do This, Don't Do That" is really just some people's best guess at a formula that (hopefully) will help you endear yourself to those people who you admire; it's neither necessary nor sufficient to actually get you the credibility you might seek.
Which is pretty much how it works in real life, no?
# Posted on August 9th 2011 by Georgi
Re: Seeking the opinions of trad. musicians
Lots of interesting comments here - thanks for everyone's input! Oh, by the way, piobagusfidi - it's MS. Quarter Irish - not Mr. Quarter Irish. And yes, my question was genuine and not meant as any kind of wind-up.
Some of my "problem" might be that I've always assumed that traditional Irish music (or ANY traditional music for that matter) is defined as tunes or songs that are 75 or more years old that have been played and passed down from generation to generation. From reading heated debates on this site I now understand that BEING a traditional musician and PLAYING traditional music are two different things... to the point where I nearly feel unworthy to play any longer!
I think Al Brown said it best - "It is all about balance. Too much experimentation, and bringing in other musical styles, and you lose focus, too little variety, and you become stagnant and rigid. Every gathering has to find that 'sweet spot' that makes the music a joyful experience.".
# Posted on August 9th 2011 by Quarter Irish
Re: Seeking the opinions of trad. musicians
Eleanor Roosevelt said "No one can make you feel inferior [or "unworthy"] without your consent." So don't let us folks on the Yellow Submarine stop you!
It's easy to get caught up in the depth and mythology of this tradition--that people kept the music in spite of oppression, and that it represents a larger cultural whole including the language and social customs and norms, with religion mixed in, and an overwhelming sense of place. But this music is also "just tunes," in the sense that Robert Frost intended when, after a prolonged, grandiose introduction for one of his readings, he stepped to the podium and said, "They're just poems."
Playing traditional music may not morph you into a traditional musician, but you cannot get there unless you play traditional music. So get to it!
# Posted on August 9th 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: Seeking the opinions of trad. musicians
"...Paddy Cronin, Tommy Peoples, Liam O'Connor, James Kelly, Dick Miles, Martin Hayes, Liz Carroll, George Keith, the singer from the Elders, or The local Irish-American barfly..."
That is quite the list you have assembled there, Georgi. I had to read it twice before I saw what you were getting at!
Good, thoughtful, comment!
# Posted on August 10th 2011 by AlBrown
Re: Seeking the opinions of trad. musicians
I like Georgi's point to, but I don't wholly agree with it.
Actually, it's *not* just how much you or I vests in the relevance of someone else's opinion. What matters is how much you *and* I and then many other people vest in those opinions. Because that's how "authenticity" is determined--collectively. (It's why the stock markets are on a rollercoaster right now.) Very few human actions are based on facts, so we shape social norms and realities around belief in vague things like "authenticity" and "leadership" and S&P assessed valuation.
# Posted on August 10th 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: Seeking the opinions of trad. musicians
"Actually, it's *not* just how much you or I vests in the relevance of someone else's opinion. What matters is how much you *and* I and then many other people vest in those opinions. Because that's how "authenticity" is determined--collectively. "
Well, yeah, that's pretty much exactly what I said... Except I put much more of the assessment power in the hands of a few people with respected authority (who, themselves were effectively elected with the consent of prior authorities).
If I told you that QuarterIrish was an authentic traditional musician, I doubt it would mean as much as it would if James Kelly said so.
Similarly, if some self-styled Irish Musicians Association in Middle-America, which had relatively few members that were recognized authorities on traditional Irish music decided to give out some awards for "best traditional musician" and such, based on international popular vote with little heed paid to the credentials of the voters, the winners of those awards mightn't have the as much credible authenticity as they would had they been chosen by, say a committee of more respected authorities on traditional music...
...Hypothetically, of course.
# Posted on August 11th 2011 by Georgi
Re: Seeking the opinions of trad. musicians
Heh, "Middle-Amercia." Is that this side's equivalent of Middle Earth? Does that make me a hobbit?
# Posted on August 11th 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: Seeking the opinions of trad. musicians
Sorry to do this again, Will, but Eleanor Roosevelt once said...
# Posted on August 11th 2011 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: Seeking the opinions of trad. musicians
Ah, but there's a difference between feeling inferior and merely being small....
# Posted on August 11th 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: Seeking the opinions of trad. musicians
Those same hypothetical winners of that not-so-prestigious-and-maybe-not-so-hypothetical "Middle American Best Musician" award will splash these new credentials over their next CDs. Is this an especially US trait? Does this happen in other countries? Do they have only prestigious music contests? The US has a number of people who, though they have only a slight talent, and only the shallowest understanding of The Music and the culture of which it's part, are publishing CDs left and right.
# Posted on August 11th 2011 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: Seeking the opinions of trad. musicians
Talent is not the prerequisite for publishing a CD.
Alas.
But they make good bird-scarers hung from string in the garden.
# Posted on August 12th 2011 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Seeking the opinions of trad. musicians
And to go back to an earlier part of the discussion;
how do you become authentic ? Authentic for when, and where, I would ask ?
I would suggest that, without there being an over-riding authority to pronounce ( and who would want that ? ), it lies in your own heart, to be as aware as possible of what has gone before in the music, and to try to play it as well as possible.
At this point I would like to say that young tearaways who play 25 notes to the second, and have forgotten about decoration and style, have lost the plot.
But then, I'm just an old fart. And only one half a quarter Irish.
# Posted on August 12th 2011 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Seeking the opinions of trad. musicians
"At this point I would like to say that young tearaways who play 25 notes to the second, and have forgotten about decoration and style, have lost the plot."
I used to be more worried about that... But after watching plenty of those young tearaways (I used to be one of them myself) get older and slow down, my faith in the young people is restored.
The kids are alright... !
# Posted on August 15th 2011 by Georgi
Re: Seeking the opinions of trad. musicians
Yep, it's just a phase many people go through, at an age when their synapses can fire that fast and tendons and joints are willing. Father time ensures we all slow down before long....
# Posted on August 15th 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: Seeking the opinions of trad. musicians
If someone in Montana doesn't know anything about this music, then I guess that means there is no Hope at all for the lively and active Irish Sessions in Arkansas. We do our best to play the so-called "pure drop" with the instruments we have. We don't have any control over who shows up with what instrument at our local sessions. No one has ever brought a tambourine. Bodhrans yes but no tambourines.
Zippy, if you will let us know when you and your wife visit Montana, we will try to visit Montana at the same time so we can invade and temporarily take over the session in Helena. We had better not warn Will Harmon when we are coming to visit Helena, because he may try to run away and hide until we leave.
Yes there is a difference between feeling inferior and merely being small. Just look at my wife and her sisters. All three of them are vertically challenged but only one of the sisters feels so inferior that she has to overcompensate by trying to tell the rest of us how to ruin (run) our lives.
Baseless Chauvinism might be a good name for a band which has no bass player.
Laurence
# Posted on August 15th 2011 by fauxcelt
Re: Seeking the opinions of trad. musicians
"There's a theory that the first Bodhrans in Ireland, were the Tambourines of the travelling Salvation Army bands, back in the mid 1800s ... if so, they have a lot to answer for!"
Other way round. Tambourine was a well established folk instrument across the whole of Europe, Ireland included, long before the Salvation Army existed. The Sallies adopted it *because* it was familiar in popular culture.
# Posted on August 15th 2011 by Jack Campin
Re: Seeking the opinions of trad. musicians
I heard that the Salivation Army was started in Russia by Ivan Pavlov...
# Posted on August 15th 2011 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Seeking the opinions of trad. musicians
I agree with Jack.
I loved Rabbidy Baxters tambourine playing, ScanTester appeared to like it too.
# Posted on August 16th 2011 by Nicholas Jelinek