I wish to know if during a session there are 2 or more guitarists and they want to back the same tune having different chords or rhytm patterns or a bouzuky and guitar are they allowed to play at the same time even if they have different ways to play?
I mean do they usually know the same tune in the same way each other?
Isn't the question more...can anyone stop them? Let's not forget that each tune is also quite freely re-interpreted. I know 3 different variations of the Cul Aodh...for example...and I wager that the tune will be played with both flattened and natural 7th's simultaneously... by different players
allowed suggests hard and fast rules and then who would ...er .. enforce them .
Its all about taste. I was recently in a small session when a guitarist plonked himself besides me saying I wont get in your way . He did and I left because it sounded awful
It depends if they know how to get in the groove together. If they don't, then there should only be one. But bands like Planxty and Dervish are both great with two backers.
"bands like Planxty and Dervish are both great with two backers."
That is different. It is a band situation and what they are playing is arranged and rehearsed. It works because they have made sure that their playing compliments each other. In a session that is unlikely to be the case. Speaking as a guitarist I would certainly agree it is better having only one accompanist. Generally speaking I am unlikely to play along to a set of tunes if someone else already is.
If there are multiple guitars, I take turns backing with the other guitar, or, I pull out my 12 string and play melody. I am learning more and more melodies.
I'm with Celtic Guitar and Bazooki Dave on this; I rarely have my guitar at an ITM session any more as my bouzouki can do much the same job, plus its more audible as a melody instrument. The regular guitarist at the session, and I, tend to swap chord/backing roles, within tunes even, unless we both want to play the melody, or neither of us know it. In that case, one of us can always pick up the bodhran.
Two rhythm/chordal/string instruments in a session is definitely one too many as far as I'm concerned.
Just because the guitar has become ubiquitous within what the public think of as "folk music' doesn't mean it is an essential part of ITM.
It's all down to listening - if you have two backers that can listen both to the tune and to each other and adjust their playing accordingly, that's fine.
"bands like Planxty and Dervish are both great with two backers"
That's quite a different thing to playing in a session - not only do the players know how to listen to one another and know each other's playing intimately, but they have also worked out and rehearsed in advance what they play.
Two can do it, especially if they are folks who play together on a regular basis, but one needs to lead and the other follow (back the backer, so to speak). Playing with another backer is a great way to learn the trade. If a session is big enough so that three accompanists don't overpower the others, it is probably too big.
But generally, like others have mentioned, it is better to take turns.
when will you electronic fools start to realise that you cannot apply a rule to ANY trad session in the world.
Example, in Dublin, I have been to the Cobblestone on a Wednesday night, there was a flute, button accordian and piano accordian. They were excellent. the guitarist sucked. So didn't matter that he was the only backer, in my opinion he should have been able to hear that he was interfering with the music and played at a more beginner friendly session. The musicians didn't really say anything to him surprisingly enough, but they didn't make any effort to speak to him either.
On a Thursday and Friday night in Devitt's there are frequently more than one guitar and bazoukis and often 2 or 3 bodhrans. Admittedly, you can tell from the overall volume who is the dominant guitarist or bazouki player or bodhran player but when there are 12 melody instruments and the pub is loud, a number of rythym instruments played by musicians sympathetic to each other's playing adds a lot to a session. But I have been to a session with up to 7 melody players and one piano and the piano does the job of backing the tune perfectly, no need for a bodhran or guitarist. I'm a guitarist, I've been to the latter session, and I either abstained from playing or played the melody. Yet I've been the 2nd and 3rd guitarist in Devitt's on a Friday night following the main guy's chords.
I generally think at a small to medium sized session with a bazouki and guitar, they can add two very different things or re inforce each other but I tend not to think of them as interfering with one another. Even in DADGAD tuning I don't think guitar can add that counter melody sort of backing that Andy irvine or Alec Finn play. But a Donal Lunny style bazouki backing plus a guitar is definitely ok in my opinion, provided they don't cut each other off.
If the bouzouki player is able to play counter melody then great. If he just strums away the same as the guitarist then there is every likelihood that they will clash and that is not pretty. Fair enough, in a really large and busy session then the sheer weight of melody players can maybe counteract the effect of two guitarists playing different stuff. It is hardly ideal though.
There is one session I occasionally go to (see the other thread about incendiary copulation) and there is a guitarist in that session that has been playing there for ever and a day and yet he still doesn't have a blind clue how to accompany tunes properly. No harm I suppose except that he completely dominates the session, plays all the time and would have no concept at all about the notion of "taking turns". As long as he is there playing there is no point in me going anywhere near my guitar. It would not be possible to play along.
Argghhh - there are plenty of things that I could moan about with this gentleman but I won't. That was the relevant one for this conversation so I will leave it at that.
It all depends on the tunes. Some tunes work well with everybody bashing away, others are more refined, and need a maximum of one guitar.
The unfortunate thing about sessions is that when there are too many guitars it always seems to be the intelligent, tasteful players who notice that there are too many guitars and step down. Leaving the tone deaf strummers to wreck the tune.
good points, I guess large loud fast sessions and capable accompanists mean that provided the strumming rythyms are somewhat similar, a few different minors or majors mightn't make much difference. Inevitably capable accompanists like No Cause for Alarm will get praise at a session for their backing, especially from another player at the session who also plays accompaniment (arguably better than melody lol!)
Define *allowed*. If only one backer were *allowed* to play in a session, then there'd never be more than one backer in a session - at least, not for long. The fact is, most of us are far too polite to *disallow* another player from playing; when the guitar count reaches double figures, the one good guitarist leaves.
"Allowed ?" - who does the "allowing" ? I have very seldom ever seen a guitarist being asked [ let alone told ] to stop in a session - we're all too polite, although I have done it on a very few occasions myself.
I've actually seen 7 guitar "players" in the same session here in Aberdeen. Personally I've never understood what anyone can add as the second guitar player in a session, let alone the seventh. One day, I'll ask them.
The "correct" answer, as far as I'm concerned, is what Charlie the Fiddler said above. [ At the risk of inflaming the situation, - but I think it needs to be said - the same applies to bodhrans ].
Even a single guitarist is no good if they don't know or understand the basic modality of most Irish tunes and provide the appropriate chords. As I said elsewhere today, Irish (and English) folk music is basically monophonic and does not need a bass line or backing harmonies. Any backer who wants to provide that should know exactly what they're doing and why.
IMHO:
There are no rules.
Only some guidelinesand "rules of thumb".
Just like courtesy at a session.
It is all about listening, and communication,
and co-operation.
The rest is a lot of speculation, debate, nit-picking, what-ifs, speculation, and opinion pushing.
I hope you find two intelligent guitarists who like each other, can really play AND listen, and love traditional music.
Good Luck.
(Now, back to bodhrans,
session ettiquette, and who
makes the best whistles.)
Was at a session last week - there were fifteen players that included four guitarists. Between the four of them they hadn't a clue what was happening but kept going anyway. Hard to know who won the battle to outdo the other. One of them was telling me later that with the noise he couldn't hear the tune but by watching the other guitarist's finger position he knew the tune was in G. The particular tune we spoke of was actually in D but what the hell!
I came out of it battered and bruised and glad to be alive.
Good point about "allowed." The better point should be "how many SHOULD be backing." I added some basic tips for backing to my profile here on this site years ago, figuring that when people shared it, it might help session newcomers by presenting: 1) Some tips on how to back, and 2) Some hints on when to back. I have heard back from a number of folks (in a number of nations) that they have shared the information to good effect. But that is just a drop in the bucket.
The larger problem, however, is people who don't get any advice on how to do it right. Unfortunately, when multiple backers make hash of things and get no constructive, or even negative feedback, the others at the session only have themselves to blame for what they get.
And the worst problem is those who get feedback, but do not take it on board.
And as to the session described by Free Reed, whether playing melody or rhythm, I can't think of anything less enjoyable than a session where the din is so great that you can't even hear what key a tune is in. I would not only put away my instrument, I would probably leave!
At our local sessions, normally the only two backers are myself on piano and a twelve string guitar player. We do our best to work together and make sure that what we play does not clash and it does work with whatever the melody players are doing. We are trying to avoid ruining the session. We deliberately try to keep the noise level down so we can clearly hear whoever is playing melody.
Hello all. My first post on here. I'm (brace yourself) a guitarist, and although I've only been playing trad for about a year, I've been playing guitar for 10. I started going to a session about a year ago after saying in passing to a friend that I'd love to play trad. I've learned everything I know from our the regular guitarist so I follow him without strumming until I feel confident enough to come in, at which point I do come in, though I strive and make an effort to not be intrusive, and we have a session typically of 8 or more players so it's easy for me to blend into the background like a trad ninja, though as I've said, I've learned all my backing from our guitarist so I think I play the songs very similar to the way he plays.
Of course Jim (the twelve string guitarist) and I are trying to avoid playing too loudly because we are there to have fun and enjoy ourselves by playing music instead of drowning out the melody players as if we are competing with them.
We are merely trying to be considerate and make a genuine contribution to the general cacophony of the session.
And, yes, we will travel (even as far as Scotland) if someone will pay for our travel costs such as airplane tickets.
Either that, or you are welcome to come to Arkansas and sit in at one of our local sessions.
I have tried to keep the session information for Arkansas up to date on the Sessions Page here.
Hugo, shows what you you know, Devitt's on Friday night is full of Dublin's best musicians, multiple all ireland winners (including the bodhran player) and is known by most musicians as one of the best sessions going. It's loud, but that's what the pub wants, the 4 or 5 paid regulars sit closest to a passive mic that plays out the music to the street enticing in tourists etc. Note also that this is not my session or a session I regularly play at because I know I'm not a good enough player to make a significant contribution to it, and I don't think I'm a bad player either.
Jon K, ok, most people here are not robotic in all of their posts but it is total binary 1 and 0 crap to be trying to dictate how many guitars a session can have or to try and standardise trad sessions, a very good reason this website exists is so that we can find a trad session anywhere in the world or, where we're lucky, find a choice of sessions where users here post comments relating to what to expect at the session or whatever. I have played guitar as a 2nd or 3rd guitarist, I know by one look at the session who is a visitor and who is a regular, I follow the regular, I typically don't play if I'm afraid that it would interfere with the main guitarist, sometimes you are seven musicians away though and it's like you are looking after a certain group, if any of them start a tune and need accompaniment to keep the tune going through the noise then that's how it goes, once the main guy picks up the chords I either drop off or try and follow him or her.
If you're in a fairly quiet pub or somebody's home or similar quiet setting or at a mic'd gig or a very high standard session, it is important to consider these rules of thumb about numbers of backing or accompanying instruments and making the accompaniments match but at a very good session, that's the best thing about it, the session earns a pub money, attracts numerous players and pub goers (aka punters) alike, sets a great atmosphere in the pub and generally all of these concerns over correct session etiquete need not be stated nor discussed, the tunes just keep coming!
Paudy, I really don't think anyone here actually believes that they can enforce those preferences even at the sessions they frequent, let alone ones they've never been to. These are expressions of preferences. For example, my preference lately is: I prefer no strummy things at all, but if they're going to play, I can ignore them pretty well. They really don't impact the music that much, it's just more background noise in the bar.
Where you are, you can do what you like. If I come to your town and stop in at a session and I don't think I'd enjoy playing (ie, the dire situation you described in a previous thread, or a big sign saying "no penises allowed") then I'm likely to have a beer and leave my instrument in the case. That's fine with me, I can find a conversation anywhere - at the bar, among the musicians, wherever.
Now if anyone actually thinks there's a rulebook, and that they're writing it, they're an idiot.
(okay, I guess there's one person who thinks both of those things, but we've already established that he's an idiot. Hi, jiggles! how ya keeping?)
lol Marty right you are, a very good friend of mine
Jon, I know that there aren't rule books at the table at some sessions or anything like that but I mean, a sit down and see what it's like approach and leaving with a general "I'll be back" or "I won't be back" is about the height of judgement I can put into it. In fairness I'm sure I've visited a fairly limited range of sessions.
I'm not in charge of any sessions presently, but if I was and you came in with an instrument case surveying the scene, I'd go up say hi, invite you to join us and offer to buy you a beer. Well possibly anyway, depends on whether I'd have looked up from playing at any stage! Sometimes, people I've approached would have said "oh thanks, I might sit in in a bit, just gona listen for a while", I always respond with "well you're absolutely welcome and don't be shy about taking up my offer of a beer"
If the session was a bit bigger and there was a would be second or third guitar or bodhran player arriving that I don't know, hmm, well I think once the session got very busy I was happy to stay put anyway but I suppose that's often the way.
I think you have to bear in mind that though I described a dire situation, MartyC145 is referring to that same session, there are excellent musicians there and I am not one of them. Many of these excellent musicians didn't like the idea of taking any action against our 3 VIP guests, which in itself speaks volumes for their humility.
So I suppose these 2 threads kind of illustrate what I mean about not being able to fully evaluate a session without being there and not relying too heavily on what might be posted here in deciding which sessions to frequent or not. Another such case is Danns bar in Greystones on a Tuesday night, not one thing posted since the session itself was first listed 2003, I called the pub to make sure it was on, "yeh", I was told "it's great, if you play definitely come in", I came along and it was.
I'm usually the only guitarist at our sessions. I don't regard myself as a 'backer'. I can play the tunes or put in chords and normally mix the two. I don't really appreciate another guitarist (or other fretted instrument) loudly putting in possibly different harmonies/ rythms without reference to what I'm doing because it just sounds muddy. I'l happily take turns in swapping from melody to harmony if they can do that.
So I'd say ones quite enough, two if they're really good or have played together a lot. By contrast, more than two fiddle players usually sound okay as the weaker musicians blend in a little.
Rob, I similarly like melody or chords, I used to happily switch to melody as soon as another guitarist would come along just to encourage them to come back, keep the session friendly and welcoming. The difference between a guitarist and an accompanist is often the noise level on the pub I think. If it gets fleadh cheoil loud, you are one step above a bodhran player in what you add to the music, you add rythym and a nice overtone. Loud sessions I don't think survive very well without chords.
Plugged in, or at a quiet session, somebody who is excellent at accompanying loud sessions may be found out for playing little more than the 3 or 4 chord trick while a guitarist exercises taste in their accompaniment or plays melody. How welcoming you are of other guitarists or how they sound with you completely depends on the pub, how appreciative visiting guitarists are of your playing also depends. A guitarist in Dublin doesn't have to say anything to me, I know from his being at a session that there's nothing I can contribute on any of the instruments I play, so I listen and sing a song maybe. That said, once I know he's playing somewhere, I would tend not to return to that session. You may not have the luxury of visiting "backers" knowing when they should sit out a few tunes, or indeed most tunes. My experience as a guitarist though is that it's just awkward once there's more than one, you either don't play or you play and watch the hosting guitarist nervously, or you try and play another instrument instead. When a guitarist would switch to melody and I'd think maybe I was ok to play the chords, sometimes the guitarist would keep playing melody, sometimes he'd switch back, he wouldn't say anything about it after the tune so it makes it awkward to know if your presence is necessary. Depending on who you're dealing with, it might not make sense to say anything either. Some backers or guitarists or somebody who is somewhere between the two might not mind taking turns, I'd rather either do so in an unspoken kind of method (e.g. if the main guy goes to the toilet or the bar or starts playing melody) or just not play at all if somebody suggested taking turns, I wouldn't like to be put on the spot in that sort of way.
Much of the reason I pushed myself hard to learn other melody instruments is precisely because of this conundrum though, how to welcome other guitarists to my regular session and how to contribute at somebody else's session......
Yes, I suppose what I've left unsaid is that I certainly wouldn't be discussing swapping melody and chords with another guitar player, it's something I'd expect a sensitive player to listen and do.
I think my session experiences may be different from a lot of contributors to this forum where it seems commonplace for a group of clueless strummers to produce a wall of sound. Happily that's never been my experience.
How many guitarists are allowed to back?
How many guitarists are allowed to back?
Hello,
I wish to know if during a session there are 2 or more guitarists and they want to back the same tune having different chords or rhytm patterns or a bouzuky and guitar are they allowed to play at the same time even if they have different ways to play?
I mean do they usually know the same tune in the same way each other?
Thanks
Slàn
Angelo
# Posted on July 30th 2011 by CORK
Re: How many guitarists are allowed to back?
Isn't the question more...can anyone stop them? Let's not forget that each tune is also quite freely re-interpreted. I know 3 different variations of the Cul Aodh...for example...and I wager that the tune will be played with both flattened and natural 7th's simultaneously... by different players
# Posted on July 30th 2011 by mickyfong
Re: How many guitarists are allowed to back?
allowed suggests hard and fast rules and then who would ...er .. enforce them .
Its all about taste. I was recently in a small session when a guitarist plonked himself besides me saying I wont get in your way . He did and I left because it sounded awful
# Posted on July 30th 2011 by bazouki dave
Re: How many guitarists are allowed to back?
No, they're not allowed.
# Posted on July 30th 2011 by Jmbu
Re: How many guitarists are allowed to back?
in my opinion there should be no more than 2 guitarists, preferably only one
# Posted on July 30th 2011 by Joseph Tailyour
Re: How many guitarists are allowed to back?
It depends if they know how to get in the groove together. If they don't, then there should only be one. But bands like Planxty and Dervish are both great with two backers.
# Posted on July 30th 2011 by pipersgrip
Re: How many guitarists are allowed to back?
"bands like Planxty and Dervish are both great with two backers."
That is different. It is a band situation and what they are playing is arranged and rehearsed. It works because they have made sure that their playing compliments each other. In a session that is unlikely to be the case. Speaking as a guitarist I would certainly agree it is better having only one accompanist. Generally speaking I am unlikely to play along to a set of tunes if someone else already is.
# Posted on July 30th 2011 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: How many guitarists are allowed to back?
"in my opinion there should be no more than 2 guitarists, preferably only one"
I agree entirely, if by "2" you mean "1" and by "only one" you mean "none at all".
# Posted on July 30th 2011 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: How many guitarists are allowed to back?
"I mean do they usually know the same tune in the same way each other?"
There's no guarantee that melody players do either.
To answer your question.... One more than the desired number of bodhrans.
# Posted on July 30th 2011 by Johnny Jay
Re: How many guitarists are allowed to back?
If there are multiple guitars, I take turns backing with the other guitar, or, I pull out my 12 string and play melody. I am learning more and more melodies.
# Posted on July 30th 2011 by Celtic Guitar
Re: How many guitarists are allowed to back?
I'm with Celtic Guitar and Bazooki Dave on this; I rarely have my guitar at an ITM session any more as my bouzouki can do much the same job, plus its more audible as a melody instrument. The regular guitarist at the session, and I, tend to swap chord/backing roles, within tunes even, unless we both want to play the melody, or neither of us know it. In that case, one of us can always pick up the bodhran.
Two rhythm/chordal/string instruments in a session is definitely one too many as far as I'm concerned.
Just because the guitar has become ubiquitous within what the public think of as "folk music' doesn't mean it is an essential part of ITM.
# Posted on July 30th 2011 by Guernsey Pete
Re: How many guitarists are allowed to back?
It's all down to listening - if you have two backers that can listen both to the tune and to each other and adjust their playing accordingly, that's fine.
"bands like Planxty and Dervish are both great with two backers"
That's quite a different thing to playing in a session - not only do the players know how to listen to one another and know each other's playing intimately, but they have also worked out and rehearsed in advance what they play.
# Posted on July 30th 2011 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: How many guitarists are allowed to back?
'But bands like Planxty and Dervish are both great with two backers.'
You've not listened very closely to Planxty, have you pipersgrip?
# Posted on July 30th 2011 by MacCruiskeen
Re: How many guitarists are allowed to back?
Just to clarify, I meant that neither Dónal nor Andy actually played with Planxty as a backer.
# Posted on July 30th 2011 by MacCruiskeen
Re: How many guitarists are allowed to back?
Two can do it, especially if they are folks who play together on a regular basis, but one needs to lead and the other follow (back the backer, so to speak). Playing with another backer is a great way to learn the trade. If a session is big enough so that three accompanists don't overpower the others, it is probably too big.
But generally, like others have mentioned, it is better to take turns.
# Posted on July 30th 2011 by AlBrown
Re: How many guitarists are allowed to back?
when will you electronic fools start to realise that you cannot apply a rule to ANY trad session in the world.
Example, in Dublin, I have been to the Cobblestone on a Wednesday night, there was a flute, button accordian and piano accordian. They were excellent. the guitarist sucked. So didn't matter that he was the only backer, in my opinion he should have been able to hear that he was interfering with the music and played at a more beginner friendly session. The musicians didn't really say anything to him surprisingly enough, but they didn't make any effort to speak to him either.
On a Thursday and Friday night in Devitt's there are frequently more than one guitar and bazoukis and often 2 or 3 bodhrans. Admittedly, you can tell from the overall volume who is the dominant guitarist or bazouki player or bodhran player but when there are 12 melody instruments and the pub is loud, a number of rythym instruments played by musicians sympathetic to each other's playing adds a lot to a session. But I have been to a session with up to 7 melody players and one piano and the piano does the job of backing the tune perfectly, no need for a bodhran or guitarist. I'm a guitarist, I've been to the latter session, and I either abstained from playing or played the melody. Yet I've been the 2nd and 3rd guitarist in Devitt's on a Friday night following the main guy's chords.
I generally think at a small to medium sized session with a bazouki and guitar, they can add two very different things or re inforce each other but I tend not to think of them as interfering with one another. Even in DADGAD tuning I don't think guitar can add that counter melody sort of backing that Andy irvine or Alec Finn play. But a Donal Lunny style bazouki backing plus a guitar is definitely ok in my opinion, provided they don't cut each other off.
# Posted on July 30th 2011 by Paudy
Re: How many guitarists are allowed to back?
If the bouzouki player is able to play counter melody then great. If he just strums away the same as the guitarist then there is every likelihood that they will clash and that is not pretty. Fair enough, in a really large and busy session then the sheer weight of melody players can maybe counteract the effect of two guitarists playing different stuff. It is hardly ideal though.
There is one session I occasionally go to (see the other thread about incendiary copulation) and there is a guitarist in that session that has been playing there for ever and a day and yet he still doesn't have a blind clue how to accompany tunes properly. No harm I suppose except that he completely dominates the session, plays all the time and would have no concept at all about the notion of "taking turns". As long as he is there playing there is no point in me going anywhere near my guitar. It would not be possible to play along.
Argghhh - there are plenty of things that I could moan about with this gentleman but I won't. That was the relevant one for this conversation so I will leave it at that.
# Posted on July 30th 2011 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: How many guitarists are allowed to back?
It all depends on the tunes. Some tunes work well with everybody bashing away, others are more refined, and need a maximum of one guitar.
The unfortunate thing about sessions is that when there are too many guitars it always seems to be the intelligent, tasteful players who notice that there are too many guitars and step down. Leaving the tone deaf strummers to wreck the tune.
# Posted on July 31st 2011 by skreech
Re: How many guitarists are allowed to back?
I know what you mean, skreech, it is the musical equivalent of Gresham's Law, "Bad money drives out good..."
# Posted on July 31st 2011 by AlBrown
Re: How many guitarists are allowed to back?
good points, I guess large loud fast sessions and capable accompanists mean that provided the strumming rythyms are somewhat similar, a few different minors or majors mightn't make much difference. Inevitably capable accompanists like No Cause for Alarm will get praise at a session for their backing, especially from another player at the session who also plays accompaniment (arguably better than melody lol!)
# Posted on July 31st 2011 by Paudy
Re: How many guitarists are allowed to back?
"a few different minors or majors mightn't make much difference"
If that's true, then getting it right doesn't make any difference either - so what's the point?
# Posted on July 31st 2011 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: How many guitarists are allowed to back?
"when will you electronic fools start to realise that you cannot apply a rule to ANY trad session in the world."
I may be a fool, but I'm not even a little bit electronic. I'm 100% meat.
# Posted on July 31st 2011 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: How many guitarists are allowed to back?
One......that knows what they are doing. Otherwise...None
# Posted on July 31st 2011 by Charlie the Fiddler
Re: How many guitarists are allowed to back?
Define *allowed*. If only one backer were *allowed* to play in a session, then there'd never be more than one backer in a session - at least, not for long. The fact is, most of us are far too polite to *disallow* another player from playing; when the guitar count reaches double figures, the one good guitarist leaves.
# Posted on July 31st 2011 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: How many guitarists are allowed to back?
"Allowed ?" - who does the "allowing" ? I have very seldom ever seen a guitarist being asked [ let alone told ] to stop in a session - we're all too polite, although I have done it on a very few occasions myself.
I've actually seen 7 guitar "players" in the same session here in Aberdeen. Personally I've never understood what anyone can add as the second guitar player in a session, let alone the seventh. One day, I'll ask them.
The "correct" answer, as far as I'm concerned, is what Charlie the Fiddler said above. [ At the risk of inflaming the situation, - but I think it needs to be said - the same applies to bodhrans ].
# Posted on July 31st 2011 by Kenny
Re: How many guitarists are allowed to back?
9.5
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=da1PodDYfL8&feature=related
# Posted on July 31st 2011 by Weejie
Re: How many guitarists are allowed to back?
Even a single guitarist is no good if they don't know or understand the basic modality of most Irish tunes and provide the appropriate chords. As I said elsewhere today, Irish (and English) folk music is basically monophonic and does not need a bass line or backing harmonies. Any backer who wants to provide that should know exactly what they're doing and why.
# Posted on July 31st 2011 by Trevor Jennings
Re: How many guitarists are allowed to back?
IMHO:
There are no rules.
Only some guidelinesand "rules of thumb".
Just like courtesy at a session.
It is all about listening, and communication,
and co-operation.
The rest is a lot of speculation, debate, nit-picking, what-ifs, speculation, and opinion pushing.
I hope you find two intelligent guitarists who like each other, can really play AND listen, and love traditional music.
Good Luck.
(Now, back to bodhrans,
session ettiquette, and who
makes the best whistles.)
# Posted on July 31st 2011 by Piece
Re: How many guitarists are allowed to back?
Was at a session last week - there were fifteen players that included four guitarists. Between the four of them they hadn't a clue what was happening but kept going anyway. Hard to know who won the battle to outdo the other. One of them was telling me later that with the noise he couldn't hear the tune but by watching the other guitarist's finger position he knew the tune was in G. The particular tune we spoke of was actually in D but what the hell!
I came out of it battered and bruised and glad to be alive.
# Posted on July 31st 2011 by Free Reed
Re: How many guitarists are allowed to back?
Good point about "allowed." The better point should be "how many SHOULD be backing." I added some basic tips for backing to my profile here on this site years ago, figuring that when people shared it, it might help session newcomers by presenting: 1) Some tips on how to back, and 2) Some hints on when to back. I have heard back from a number of folks (in a number of nations) that they have shared the information to good effect. But that is just a drop in the bucket.
The larger problem, however, is people who don't get any advice on how to do it right. Unfortunately, when multiple backers make hash of things and get no constructive, or even negative feedback, the others at the session only have themselves to blame for what they get.
And the worst problem is those who get feedback, but do not take it on board.
And as to the session described by Free Reed, whether playing melody or rhythm, I can't think of anything less enjoyable than a session where the din is so great that you can't even hear what key a tune is in. I would not only put away my instrument, I would probably leave!
# Posted on July 31st 2011 by AlBrown
Re: How many guitarists are allowed to back?
"On a Thursday and Friday night in Devitt's there are frequently more than one guitar and bazoukis and often 2 or 3 bodhrans. "
Note to self...
# Posted on July 31st 2011 by Hugo Chavez
Re: How many guitarists are allowed to back?
"The larger problem, however, is people who don't get any advice on how to do it right"
That's because there is no doing it right. There's only greater and lesser degrees of doing it wrong.
# Posted on July 31st 2011 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: How many guitarists are allowed to back?
Like Yoda you begin to sound!
# Posted on July 31st 2011 by AlBrown
Re: How many guitarists are allowed to back?
The anti-yoda, more like. When it comes to guitar, there is no do, there is only try. Try, and stop trying. I prefer it when people stop trying.
# Posted on July 31st 2011 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: How many guitarists are allowed to back?
At our local sessions, normally the only two backers are myself on piano and a twelve string guitar player. We do our best to work together and make sure that what we play does not clash and it does work with whatever the melody players are doing. We are trying to avoid ruining the session. We deliberately try to keep the noise level down so we can clearly hear whoever is playing melody.
Laurence
# Posted on July 31st 2011 by fauxcelt
Re: How many guitarists are allowed to back?
Can we have you all at our sessions, Laurence? Backers who ease off the loud so you can hear the melody? Such creatures exist? I had no idea. *sniff*
# Posted on July 31st 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: How many guitarists are allowed to back?
Hello all. My first post on here. I'm (brace yourself) a guitarist, and although I've only been playing trad for about a year, I've been playing guitar for 10. I started going to a session about a year ago after saying in passing to a friend that I'd love to play trad. I've learned everything I know from our the regular guitarist so I follow him without strumming until I feel confident enough to come in, at which point I do come in, though I strive and make an effort to not be intrusive, and we have a session typically of 8 or more players so it's easy for me to blend into the background like a trad ninja, though as I've said, I've learned all my backing from our guitarist so I think I play the songs very similar to the way he plays.
# Posted on July 31st 2011 by Eimead
Re: How many guitarists are allowed to back?
Of course Jim (the twelve string guitarist) and I are trying to avoid playing too loudly because we are there to have fun and enjoy ourselves by playing music instead of drowning out the melody players as if we are competing with them.
We are merely trying to be considerate and make a genuine contribution to the general cacophony of the session.
And, yes, we will travel (even as far as Scotland) if someone will pay for our travel costs such as airplane tickets.
Either that, or you are welcome to come to Arkansas and sit in at one of our local sessions.
I have tried to keep the session information for Arkansas up to date on the Sessions Page here.
Laurence
# Posted on August 1st 2011 by fauxcelt
Re: How many guitarists are allowed to back?
Hugo, shows what you you know, Devitt's on Friday night is full of Dublin's best musicians, multiple all ireland winners (including the bodhran player) and is known by most musicians as one of the best sessions going. It's loud, but that's what the pub wants, the 4 or 5 paid regulars sit closest to a passive mic that plays out the music to the street enticing in tourists etc. Note also that this is not my session or a session I regularly play at because I know I'm not a good enough player to make a significant contribution to it, and I don't think I'm a bad player either.
Jon K, ok, most people here are not robotic in all of their posts but it is total binary 1 and 0 crap to be trying to dictate how many guitars a session can have or to try and standardise trad sessions, a very good reason this website exists is so that we can find a trad session anywhere in the world or, where we're lucky, find a choice of sessions where users here post comments relating to what to expect at the session or whatever. I have played guitar as a 2nd or 3rd guitarist, I know by one look at the session who is a visitor and who is a regular, I follow the regular, I typically don't play if I'm afraid that it would interfere with the main guitarist, sometimes you are seven musicians away though and it's like you are looking after a certain group, if any of them start a tune and need accompaniment to keep the tune going through the noise then that's how it goes, once the main guy picks up the chords I either drop off or try and follow him or her.
If you're in a fairly quiet pub or somebody's home or similar quiet setting or at a mic'd gig or a very high standard session, it is important to consider these rules of thumb about numbers of backing or accompanying instruments and making the accompaniments match but at a very good session, that's the best thing about it, the session earns a pub money, attracts numerous players and pub goers (aka punters) alike, sets a great atmosphere in the pub and generally all of these concerns over correct session etiquete need not be stated nor discussed, the tunes just keep coming!
# Posted on August 1st 2011 by Paudy
Re: How many guitarists are allowed to back?
not to mention Tara Finn rocking the pipes on a thursday night. Devitts has a great session
# Posted on August 3rd 2011 by MartyC145
Re: How many guitarists are allowed to back?
Paudy, I really don't think anyone here actually believes that they can enforce those preferences even at the sessions they frequent, let alone ones they've never been to. These are expressions of preferences. For example, my preference lately is: I prefer no strummy things at all, but if they're going to play, I can ignore them pretty well. They really don't impact the music that much, it's just more background noise in the bar.
Where you are, you can do what you like. If I come to your town and stop in at a session and I don't think I'd enjoy playing (ie, the dire situation you described in a previous thread, or a big sign saying "no penises allowed") then I'm likely to have a beer and leave my instrument in the case. That's fine with me, I can find a conversation anywhere - at the bar, among the musicians, wherever.
Now if anyone actually thinks there's a rulebook, and that they're writing it, they're an idiot.
(okay, I guess there's one person who thinks both of those things, but we've already established that he's an idiot. Hi, jiggles! how ya keeping?)
# Posted on August 3rd 2011 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: How many guitarists are allowed to back?
lol Marty right you are, a very good friend of mine
Jon, I know that there aren't rule books at the table at some sessions or anything like that but I mean, a sit down and see what it's like approach and leaving with a general "I'll be back" or "I won't be back" is about the height of judgement I can put into it. In fairness I'm sure I've visited a fairly limited range of sessions.
I'm not in charge of any sessions presently, but if I was and you came in with an instrument case surveying the scene, I'd go up say hi, invite you to join us and offer to buy you a beer. Well possibly anyway, depends on whether I'd have looked up from playing at any stage! Sometimes, people I've approached would have said "oh thanks, I might sit in in a bit, just gona listen for a while", I always respond with "well you're absolutely welcome and don't be shy about taking up my offer of a beer"
If the session was a bit bigger and there was a would be second or third guitar or bodhran player arriving that I don't know, hmm, well I think once the session got very busy I was happy to stay put anyway but I suppose that's often the way.
I think you have to bear in mind that though I described a dire situation, MartyC145 is referring to that same session, there are excellent musicians there and I am not one of them. Many of these excellent musicians didn't like the idea of taking any action against our 3 VIP guests, which in itself speaks volumes for their humility.
So I suppose these 2 threads kind of illustrate what I mean about not being able to fully evaluate a session without being there and not relying too heavily on what might be posted here in deciding which sessions to frequent or not. Another such case is Danns bar in Greystones on a Tuesday night, not one thing posted since the session itself was first listed 2003, I called the pub to make sure it was on, "yeh", I was told "it's great, if you play definitely come in", I came along and it was.
# Posted on August 4th 2011 by Paudy
Re: How many guitarists are allowed to back?
I'm usually the only guitarist at our sessions. I don't regard myself as a 'backer'. I can play the tunes or put in chords and normally mix the two. I don't really appreciate another guitarist (or other fretted instrument) loudly putting in possibly different harmonies/ rythms without reference to what I'm doing because it just sounds muddy. I'l happily take turns in swapping from melody to harmony if they can do that.
So I'd say ones quite enough, two if they're really good or have played together a lot. By contrast, more than two fiddle players usually sound okay as the weaker musicians blend in a little.
# Posted on August 4th 2011 by Rob
Re: How many guitarists are allowed to back?
Rob, I similarly like melody or chords, I used to happily switch to melody as soon as another guitarist would come along just to encourage them to come back, keep the session friendly and welcoming. The difference between a guitarist and an accompanist is often the noise level on the pub I think. If it gets fleadh cheoil loud, you are one step above a bodhran player in what you add to the music, you add rythym and a nice overtone. Loud sessions I don't think survive very well without chords.
Plugged in, or at a quiet session, somebody who is excellent at accompanying loud sessions may be found out for playing little more than the 3 or 4 chord trick while a guitarist exercises taste in their accompaniment or plays melody. How welcoming you are of other guitarists or how they sound with you completely depends on the pub, how appreciative visiting guitarists are of your playing also depends. A guitarist in Dublin doesn't have to say anything to me, I know from his being at a session that there's nothing I can contribute on any of the instruments I play, so I listen and sing a song maybe. That said, once I know he's playing somewhere, I would tend not to return to that session. You may not have the luxury of visiting "backers" knowing when they should sit out a few tunes, or indeed most tunes. My experience as a guitarist though is that it's just awkward once there's more than one, you either don't play or you play and watch the hosting guitarist nervously, or you try and play another instrument instead. When a guitarist would switch to melody and I'd think maybe I was ok to play the chords, sometimes the guitarist would keep playing melody, sometimes he'd switch back, he wouldn't say anything about it after the tune so it makes it awkward to know if your presence is necessary. Depending on who you're dealing with, it might not make sense to say anything either. Some backers or guitarists or somebody who is somewhere between the two might not mind taking turns, I'd rather either do so in an unspoken kind of method (e.g. if the main guy goes to the toilet or the bar or starts playing melody) or just not play at all if somebody suggested taking turns, I wouldn't like to be put on the spot in that sort of way.
Much of the reason I pushed myself hard to learn other melody instruments is precisely because of this conundrum though, how to welcome other guitarists to my regular session and how to contribute at somebody else's session......
# Posted on August 5th 2011 by Paudy
Re: How many guitarists are allowed to back?
Yes, I suppose what I've left unsaid is that I certainly wouldn't be discussing swapping melody and chords with another guitar player, it's something I'd expect a sensitive player to listen and do.
I think my session experiences may be different from a lot of contributors to this forum where it seems commonplace for a group of clueless strummers to produce a wall of sound. Happily that's never been my experience.
# Posted on August 5th 2011 by Rob