The Session >> Discussions >> Will tThe Rest Of Us Ever Be As Good As The Irish? (I'm just lookin start trouble)
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Will tThe Rest Of Us Ever Be As Good As The Irish? (I'm just lookin start trouble)
Will tThe Rest Of Us Ever Be As Good As The Irish? (I'm just lookin start trouble)
Now before I start getting pummeled in here by my friends from across the pond let's have a drink and ponder this question. I'm just a fat kid from the Bronx who loves Irish Music (as the rest of us here are...except for the fat part or being from the Bronx for that matter). I have found in my experience, however, that I can play away and have a great ol' time with everyone but the second I open my mouth and people hear my unmistakable NYC brogue people kinda seem dissapointed. While this is not a common occurance by any means I have talked to other "non-Irish" players and they have shared the same sentiment at times. Anyone else wanna tackle this subject? Now let's drink and have a sessiun.
Re: Will tThe Rest Of Us Ever Be As Good As The Irish? (I'm just lookin start trouble)
But isn't it just the non-Irish who show their disappointment? We've had visitors out to Montana from Dublin, Cork, and parts of Donegal, and they love finding an 'authentic' session so far from home. It's the local Yanks (closet Celtophiles) who swoon over the marbles-in-yer-mouth accent, but they can't tell a jig from a polka.
Too bad you're from the Bronx...my Dad was born and raised in Brooklyn and it took him a lifetime to lose the Irish accent.
Re: Will tThe Rest Of Us Ever Be As Good As The Irish? (I'm just lookin start trouble)
Speaking as someone who generally thought that she'd never be mistaken for Irish in about a jillion years but who has in fact gotten the question (albeit slightly incredulously) of whether I'm from Ireland or not at various gigs and sessions, I think before you can get an answer to that, Denis, you're going to have to define "good".
(For anyone who doesn't know by this point, I'm Chinese American, and haven't a drop of the Irish in me at all.)
Re: Will tThe Rest Of Us Ever Be As Good As The Irish? (I'm just lookin start trouble)
Hey Will, I haven't had the pleasure of making it out that far west ,yet so I can't say nothin' as to your experience. I can say that I have been in a few "No Yank need apply" pubs t and the sentiment is certainly there. Mind you it's not the players (well mostly not) who vocalize this attitude but more so the listeners.
Re: Will tThe Rest Of Us Ever Be As Good As The Irish? (I'm just lookin start trouble)
I read recently someone said :"Go ahead and say what you think or want. The people that mind won't matter, and the ones that matter won't mind." --Tom Friedman.
Re: Will tThe Rest Of Us Ever Be As Good As The Irish? (I'm just lookin start trouble)
And then there was that flute player from Birmingham, plays Lunasa and now seems to have a Clare accent...what was his name again Crawffin Kevord? ...something like that...and the fella from Whitechapel, east London, plays banjo, fiddle... Johnny Carrr...whass'e called again?
All these guys seem to have forgotten their english accents quicker than I forgot their names...seems to be the way to go, Dinnis.
Re: Will tThe Rest Of Us Ever Be As Good As The Irish? (I'm just lookin start trouble)
Well, just keeping in mind here that I seem to pick up accents really fast without realizing I'm doing it. I'd hate to have anyone think I was winding them up or that I was trying to fit in in some totally gormless kind of way... I can't seem to help it!
Re: Will tThe Rest Of Us Ever Be As Good As The Irish? (I'm just lookin start trouble)
Hmmm.. I know what you mean, Zina, but if you spend a lot of time in the company of Irish people, like Kevin Crawford who lives there now, or even if you
Re: Will tThe Rest Of Us Ever Be As Good As The Irish? (I'm just lookin start trouble)
I was amazed to hear Kevin talking with his adopted tongue when I'd been so used to his Brummie accent, even at Listowel in 85 his was still English midlands!
Mine is Lancashire, a touch of Scouse, but I had it said in Derry in the Phoenix in the Creggan that the only thing that was British about me was my accent. I took that to be quite a compliment, and those who know me know that I am proud of my culture, and my music. But I'm not going to change to Aussie because I'm out here now! Liverpool born, Lancashire bred, Irish blood.
I've worked out the identities of some of the Session, and because of geographical accident of birth it would be a foolish person to deny them their Irishness. Likewise try these...Siobhan O'Donnell, Tommy McManammon...from London...anyone care for John Whelan. Tell me they don't play Irish Music. What, John can't play accordion because he's from Luton? What about Siobhan on the flute?Dare call Tommy English - his parents were guardians of the music when it was dying everywhere..."Paddy in the Smoke", Julia Clifford, Jimmy Power, Paddy Malynn they all played at their pub, The Favourite...call Tommy English? Who are you kidding?
And what about Danny? So he's from Liverpool's twin city, Glasgow. Places escaped to during the Great Hunger, and a few other historical events. So Danny cannot play Irish because...
Hope this stimulates a few more comments!
Brianx
Re: Will tThe Rest Of Us Ever Be As Good As The Irish? (I'm just lookin start trouble)
It's a helluva long way from a Brummie accent to a Clare one.
A Dublin accent, to my ear, is more or less a West midlands (of England) accent, with Irish intonation and aspirated plosives (which then, interestingly, went to Liverpool, mixed with a bit of Lancashire, Cheshire and North Welsh and became a Scouse accent). But a Clare accent is another creature altogether - and a Brummie accent, I imagine, is not an easy thing to lose.
Re: Will tThe Rest Of Us Ever Be As Good As The Irish? (I'm just lookin start trouble)
Mmmmmm ....fake accents !!!!!!
I'm like brian born in lancashire (east Lancs), was brought up for the first 4 years of my life by a native donegal gaelic speaker, lived in France, live in Wales for 13 years, have now lived in the south east of ireland for a good while and ...people still remark on my coronation street accent (british soap series for the uniniciated) .......I find my accent has got stronger (more lancs by 'eck) the longer I live away ...... how Kevin C and Kevin B cultivated those accents I'll never know.
Re: Will tThe Rest Of Us Ever Be As Good As The Irish? (I'm just lookin start trouble)
I've noticed that the accents in some parts of Western Ireland remind me of the accents in some parts of West Wales. Perhaps it's because both regions are relatively quiet agricultural communities.
Trevor
Re: Will tThe Rest Of Us Ever Be As Good As The Irish? (I'm just lookin start trouble)
I just happened to run across your website the other night and now you turn up here as I recently have. I'll say this... Your an excellent player and I don't care how you talk. The music is in the blood. And it's obviously in your blood.
Re: Will tThe Rest Of Us Ever Be As Good As The Irish? (I'm just lookin start trouble)
Not altogether sure if I understand you (uh no, it's not the accent): Do you mean that other Americans are disappointed to find out you're from da Bronx instead of the Auld Sod? Or is this a reaction by native Irishians?
Well, regardless, I have to agree with the sentiments already posted here. If someone thinks that your "brogue" somehow lessens your musicianship, they deserve a good old-fashioned Bronx cheer. You could always slip on a pseudo-"Oirish" accent and explain that the elocution lessons just haven't quite taken yet.
The fiddle player in my former band used to derive no small amount of amusement when someone, usually native Irish or Irish-American -- no doubt convinced that she must've learned to play by the hearth in the ole thatched cottage -- would ask her her family's name, and she would proudly reply, "Rydzynski!"
Reportedly, on one occasion, the person she gave the reply to thought for a second or two and persisted, "So would that be Clare or Galway?"
Re: Will tThe Rest Of Us Ever Be As Good As The Irish? (I'm just lookin start trouble)
Doesn't having a french accent make you a better cook? I heard an interview with a English engineer working in Texas. He said he likes working down there because people thought he was smarter because he has a "English" accent. Gave him an extra 15 IQ point without even trying. Is "Masterpiece Theater" really good, or is it just bad acting with English accents?
Ran-
Re: Will tThe Rest Of Us Ever Be As Good As The Irish? (I'm just lookin start trouble)
I just got back to the states after living in Cork for almost a year. Most of the guys that I played with over there kind of forgot I was American after a few months. Not because I developed a convincing accent (I'm still as Midwesternally nasal as they come) but because I was out playing tunes with them every week and they just stopped caring.
I'm not sure how that translates to stage playing. I can only assume that people who like Irish music in the 'oh like Riverdance' way will always swoon for the accent but people who like Irish music for itself shouldn't care either way as long as you're a good musician, talented, innovative and carrying on the tradition.
Re: Will tThe Rest Of Us Ever Be As Good As The Irish? (I'm just lookin start trouble)
Ah, but what does "carrying on the tradition" really mean?
I came into Irish music from an Early Music background. This is like the SCA of musicianship, trolling thru ancient manuscripts and trying to perform in as "authentic" a style as possible, preferably on period instruments when playing, or just in period vocal style when singing. I still love that material, the music is a lot of fun, but to a large degree the pursuit is just mental masturbation. When you're looking at a piece written in 1211AD, there's very very little likelihood that anyone alive today has even the vaguest clue of how it really sounded back then. (With one notable exception being "Sumer is Icumen In", written in the 1200s, and still sung every year at Oxford to welcome in the summer...) There's also the oddity of playing on viols and viola da gamba and such, all of which went extinct for good reason - because the violin family of instruments is more versatile. I happen to love the sound of the harpsichord, but there's no denying that it's a very limited instrument, and the piano has a far greater range of expressivity. All of this music and everything associated with it is essentially dead; the people who still practice it today are merely sending out an echo of something that has no other connection to the modern world.
Anyway, coming into Irish music with this background, I spent a lot of energy trying to learn how to play it "authentically." I took step dancing classes, so I could see how the dance music actually fits with the dance. I've gone to numerous festivals in Ireland to take workshops, see concerts, play sessions, etc... Ironically, when I asked Gearoid Mooney for his take on authenticity, he answered something to the effect of "if what you're playing pleases you, then it's good."
I think, because he's living in the community that is the home of his brand of music, that answer makes sense for him. If you grow up surrounded by a particular living tradition, it shapes your self pretty completely. Anything you create is automatically done according to the custom of that tradition. You would have to struggle pretty hard to create something outside of that tradition. So for Gearoid or anyone else who's lived their whole life in Donegal, whatever they play, that they enjoy, would be authentic Donegal music.
And if I were happily sitting here in Los Angeles, tuned in to the common customs of this culture, I might play a few licks of speedmetal or punk or god knows what, and that would be authentic American music. But for whatever strange reason, I've chosen to participate in the Irish tradition, not the American tradition, and so the question of "what's authentic, what's in the tradition?" still plagues me. I'm not trying to play "Los Angeles Irish music." Should I be? Maybe that would make life easier. But what I want is that Donegal stuff. If I slavishly copy their styles and techniques, am I carrying on a living tradition, or am I just being a museum caretaker, like the Early Music crowd? If I alter the styles and techniques, am I carrying on their tradition, or am I working in a different tradition entirely? Where does innovation turn into diversion?
Re: Will tThe Rest Of Us Ever Be As Good As The Irish? (I'm just lookin start trouble)
I meant it in the broadest, least complex meaning of "not f-ing it up in a hat."
I don't think my playing would stand up to much Actual Historical Scrutiny, but I have fun playing it--I'm carrying on the tradition of having fun while playing music.
That Gearoid Mooney quote is really wonderful. If it pleases me, then it's good. Of course, there are some standards of technique and it has to please a few other people to be generally deemed 'good' but in the basic, basic sense of carrying on the tradition, I'm learning old tunes, getting my rhythm down and even learning how to step and set dance so I can think dancing while I play.
I had an intense discussion about traditions while I was in Galway. We ended up, in the course of listening to all these old recordings, enjoying a Johnny McGreevy recording. I am from Chicago. The Irish guys I was with kept insisting that this music, Johnny McGreevy's music, was more my tradition than it was theirs. I had never thought of it this way before. There's a Chicago tradition just as there is a Connemara tradition or a Clare tradition. Even if I end up playing Clare music, my body comes through the Chicago tradition. Likewise, there is a Los Angeles tradition--even if you play Donegal music, your body is coming through the Los Angeles tradition.
And innovation and diversion? I just played a few tunes with a friend of mine. We played Lads of Laoise and she went straight into The First Months of Summer, like the set from the Andy McGann album. Now, I had learned my version of Lads of Laoise straight from that album (tricky first part included) but had never gone on to the next tune. We had a good laugh about it because each of us, on her own, had deemed Andy McGann's version of Lads of Laoise the coolest one that we wanted to emulate. See? His innovation turned into our diversion.
Re: Will tThe Rest Of Us Ever Be As Good As The Irish? (I'm just lookin start trouble)
Had an interesting chat with Buddy MacMaster and then Doug Greenberg on that subject, H. Mr. MacMaster didn't think it was possible for someone not immersed in the stuff, but then pointed at Doug as someone who had done it. Doug said that you had to do it very artificially and be really obsessed with it, because there's no way to go back and re-live your life, and after all, who would want to?
On the other hand, I'd agree with suky's lads that there's a very definite Chicago tradition which is part of the larger American tradition of the Irish tradition.
I was just re-reading Douglas Adams's Last Chance to See last night, and he had written about a trip to Japan where he'd gone to see a building. He remarked upon how new and well kept the building seemed to be though it had been built in the 12th Century or so. His guide said yes, it was a beautiful building. And then went on to say that it had burnt down twice in the last century. Adams, confused, then went round and round with him on whether it was a new building or an old building.
To the guide, it was the old building, even though it had burnt down a jillion times since it had been originally built, and was built of new materials. It was always the old building, no matter what it was built of.
Adams finally concluded that it was the *idea* of the building, or rather, the building as an idea that was important in his guide's mind, not what it was built of.
I know this had something to do with the subject, but now I'm not sure what. ;)
Re: Will tThe Rest Of Us Ever Be As Good As The Irish? (I'm just lookin start trouble)
Excellent post, Zina. But I think you mean David Greenberg. Doug would be Doug MacPhee, the pianist who often plays with David. David and his wife Kate Dunlay have done extensive research on Cape Breton fiddle styles, producing transcriptions of how specific fiddlers play certain tunes, with very precise descriptions of each ornament. I heard a few years back that there was a backlash in Cape Breton over the idea that Americans would have the nerve to tell Cape Bretoner's how they were playing the fiddle.
Re: Will tThe Rest Of Us Ever Be As Good As The Irish? (I'm just lookin start trouble)
Whup, you're right, I posted in a hurry. I doubt David would be considered someone telling the Cape Bretoners how they were playing the fiddle. Mr. MacMaster specifically told me that David was both humble and a real learner and that he thought David was an excellent player of Cape Breton. (But then, Mr. MacMaster also said, in his very polite and completely non-confrontational way, that he doesn't care for what some of the younger players are doing with the Cape Breton tradition, either. Or at least, that was the way I read what he told me, and since he was talking at that point to A Member of the Press, I imagine he knew exactly what he said and was taking care saying it, to...)
Re: Will tThe Rest Of Us Ever Be As Good As The Irish? (I'm just lookin start trouble)
(I have a tendency to over-analyze, can you tell?)
Suky - there's no doubt in my mind that there's a Chicago tradition with an identity all its own. I don't think the same can be said for LA, because there just hasn't been the critical mass yet.
I can pretty much count all the serious trad musicians on one hand - Frank Simpson (flute/whistle, from Dublin, studied with Mary Bergin), Kevin Crehan (from Clare), Kathleen Keane (Chicago), Cait Reed, Paulette Gershen (whistle, studied with Mary Bergin)... There's literally a handful of people who live and breathe the stuff, all from separate backgrounds, and it simply hasn't gelled into a Los Angeles body of its own.
Zina - I've obviously bought into the notion of immersion. It's worked for me in other pursuits, and I think it works for me here as well, though I can't maintain the intense exposure as often as I'd like. Something else factors in here, that I didn't realize early on. About 5 years after I'd started playing fiddle I stumbled across a tune that was amazingly familiar, and I finally recognized it as something I had learned back in 4th grade or so. As it happens, the area of Michigan that I grew up in was largely a community of Scotch-Irish, and so I actually did grow up with some of that tradition, though I wasn't consciously aware of it. Sometimes I wonder what life would be like now if I had actually appreciated what was around me back then but right, you can't go back and re-live your life...
Re: Will tThe Rest Of Us Ever Be As Good As The Irish? (I'm just lookin start trouble)
What's wrong with not having reached critical mass yet?
Isn't it wonderful that years from now, kids like us will be talking about the good ol' days of the Los Angeles tradition, before it turned into the thriving, ego-centric, stylistically driven perfectionism that it has, that there were people like you just playing for the fun of it and making the music their own? You'll be on 'Early Los Angeles Tradition' music compilation discs--a scratchy recording of yourself overheard in a session, or two tunes caught in somebody's bathroom where the acoustics were perfect. And the kids will be mad for copying your style note for note, like we do with Tommy Peoples and Willie Clancy. 'That's when Los Angeles music was _music_,' they'll say with nostalgia, putting your album into the space-wave audio-techtronic system of their hover-cars and reclining in their light-weight nylon ozone suits as AutoDrive2094 speeds them swiftly over the giant sea which separates California from the rest of the contiguous United Nation States of Cana-Mexicamerica.
Re: Will tThe Rest Of Us Ever Be As Good As The Irish? (I'm just lookin start trouble)
Gosh, what a wonderful world-view you painted. We must certainly be getting there; at least, it's already ego-centric! One out of three is a start, right?
Really though, thanks for the post, I feel all warm'n'fuzzy now. It would really be cool to see it all pull together into a cohesively identifiable body of music, and I suppose one day it could...
Will tThe Rest Of Us Ever Be As Good As The Irish? (I'm just lookin start trouble)
Will tThe Rest Of Us Ever Be As Good As The Irish? (I'm just lookin start trouble)
Now before I start getting pummeled in here by my friends from across the pond let's have a drink and ponder this question. I'm just a fat kid from the Bronx who loves Irish Music (as the rest of us here are...except for the fat part or being from the Bronx for that matter). I have found in my experience, however, that I can play away and have a great ol' time with everyone but the second I open my mouth and people hear my unmistakable NYC brogue people kinda seem dissapointed. While this is not a common occurance by any means I have talked to other "non-Irish" players and they have shared the same sentiment at times. Anyone else wanna tackle this subject? Now let's drink and have a sessiun.
# Posted on January 30th 2004 by dinjosra
Re: Will tThe Rest Of Us Ever Be As Good As The Irish? (I'm just lookin start trouble)
No!
# Posted on January 30th 2004 by cluaintarbh
Re: Will tThe Rest Of Us Ever Be As Good As The Irish? (I'm just lookin start trouble)
But isn't it just the non-Irish who show their disappointment? We've had visitors out to Montana from Dublin, Cork, and parts of Donegal, and they love finding an 'authentic' session so far from home. It's the local Yanks (closet Celtophiles) who swoon over the marbles-in-yer-mouth accent, but they can't tell a jig from a polka.
Too bad you're from the Bronx...my Dad was born and raised in Brooklyn and it took him a lifetime to lose the Irish accent.
# Posted on January 30th 2004 by Will Harmon
Re: Will tThe Rest Of Us Ever Be As Good As The Irish? (I'm just lookin start trouble)
Speaking as someone who generally thought that she'd never be mistaken for Irish in about a jillion years but who has in fact gotten the question (albeit slightly incredulously) of whether I'm from Ireland or not at various gigs and sessions, I think before you can get an answer to that, Denis, you're going to have to define "good".
(For anyone who doesn't know by this point, I'm Chinese American, and haven't a drop of the Irish in me at all.)
# Posted on January 30th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: Will tThe Rest Of Us Ever Be As Good As The Irish? (I'm just lookin start trouble)
Brooklyn!?.........never heard of da joint
# Posted on January 30th 2004 by dinjosra
Re: Will tThe Rest Of Us Ever Be As Good As The Irish? (I'm just lookin start trouble)
Hey Will, I haven't had the pleasure of making it out that far west ,yet so I can't say nothin' as to your experience. I can say that I have been in a few "No Yank need apply" pubs t and the sentiment is certainly there. Mind you it's not the players (well mostly not) who vocalize this attitude but more so the listeners.
# Posted on January 30th 2004 by dinjosra
Re: Will tThe Rest Of Us Ever Be As Good As The Irish? (I'm just lookin start trouble)
Man, I opened a can of worms here.
# Posted on January 30th 2004 by dinjosra
Re: Will tThe Rest Of Us Ever Be As Good As The Irish? (I'm just lookin start trouble)
You could always just say you're from the north. haha
# Posted on January 30th 2004 by jerball
Re: Will tThe Rest Of Us Ever Be As Good As The Irish? (I'm just lookin start trouble)
There
# Posted on January 30th 2004 by murfbox
Re: Will tThe Rest Of Us Ever Be As Good As The Irish? (I'm just lookin start trouble)
I read recently someone said :"Go ahead and say what you think or want. The people that mind won't matter, and the ones that matter won't mind." --Tom Friedman.
# Posted on January 30th 2004 by wvwhistler
Re: Will tThe Rest Of Us Ever Be As Good As The Irish? (I'm just lookin start trouble)
I couldn't agree more with dublinfluter!!
Northernfluter
# Posted on January 30th 2004 by breandan
Re: Will tThe Rest Of Us Ever Be As Good As The Irish? (I'm just lookin start trouble)
And then there was that flute player from Birmingham, plays Lunasa and now seems to have a Clare accent...what was his name again Crawffin Kevord? ...something like that...and the fella from Whitechapel, east London, plays banjo, fiddle... Johnny Carrr...whass'e called again?
All these guys seem to have forgotten their english accents quicker than I forgot their names...seems to be the way to go, Dinnis.
# Posted on January 30th 2004 by Rudall the time
Re: Will tThe Rest Of Us Ever Be As Good As The Irish? (I'm just lookin start trouble)
Well, just keeping in mind here that I seem to pick up accents really fast without realizing I'm doing it. I'd hate to have anyone think I was winding them up or that I was trying to fit in in some totally gormless kind of way... I can't seem to help it!
# Posted on January 30th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: Will tThe Rest Of Us Ever Be As Good As The Irish? (I'm just lookin start trouble)
It's the natural actress in you, Zina.
# Posted on January 30th 2004 by Rudall the time
Re: Will tThe Rest Of Us Ever Be As Good As The Irish? (I'm just lookin start trouble)
Call me Dinny.....boyo.
# Posted on January 30th 2004 by dinjosra
Re: Will tThe Rest Of Us Ever Be As Good As The Irish? (I'm just lookin start trouble)
Hmmm.. I know what you mean, Zina, but if you spend a lot of time in the company of Irish people, like Kevin Crawford who lives there now, or even if you
# Posted on January 30th 2004 by murfbox
Re: Will tThe Rest Of Us Ever Be As Good As The Irish? (I'm just lookin start trouble)
I was amazed to hear Kevin talking with his adopted tongue when I'd been so used to his Brummie accent, even at Listowel in 85 his was still English midlands!
Mine is Lancashire, a touch of Scouse, but I had it said in Derry in the Phoenix in the Creggan that the only thing that was British about me was my accent. I took that to be quite a compliment, and those who know me know that I am proud of my culture, and my music. But I'm not going to change to Aussie because I'm out here now! Liverpool born, Lancashire bred, Irish blood.
I've worked out the identities of some of the Session, and because of geographical accident of birth it would be a foolish person to deny them their Irishness. Likewise try these...Siobhan O'Donnell, Tommy McManammon...from London...anyone care for John Whelan. Tell me they don't play Irish Music. What, John can't play accordion because he's from Luton? What about Siobhan on the flute?Dare call Tommy English - his parents were guardians of the music when it was dying everywhere..."Paddy in the Smoke", Julia Clifford, Jimmy Power, Paddy Malynn they all played at their pub, The Favourite...call Tommy English? Who are you kidding?
And what about Danny? So he's from Liverpool's twin city, Glasgow. Places escaped to during the Great Hunger, and a few other historical events. So Danny cannot play Irish because...
Hope this stimulates a few more comments!
Brianx
# Posted on January 30th 2004 by briantheflute
Re: Will tThe Rest Of Us Ever Be As Good As The Irish? (I'm just lookin start trouble)
It's a helluva long way from a Brummie accent to a Clare one.
A Dublin accent, to my ear, is more or less a West midlands (of England) accent, with Irish intonation and aspirated plosives (which then, interestingly, went to Liverpool, mixed with a bit of Lancashire, Cheshire and North Welsh and became a Scouse accent). But a Clare accent is another creature altogether - and a Brummie accent, I imagine, is not an easy thing to lose.
Kevin Crawford is surely a unique case.
# Posted on January 30th 2004 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Will tThe Rest Of Us Ever Be As Good As The Irish? (I'm just lookin start trouble)
Mmmmmm ....fake accents !!!!!!
I'm like brian born in lancashire (east Lancs), was brought up for the first 4 years of my life by a native donegal gaelic speaker, lived in France, live in Wales for 13 years, have now lived in the south east of ireland for a good while and ...people still remark on my coronation street accent (british soap series for the uniniciated) .......I find my accent has got stronger (more lancs by 'eck) the longer I live away ...... how Kevin C and Kevin B cultivated those accents I'll never know.
# Posted on January 30th 2004 by DeffGoat
Re: Will tThe Rest Of Us Ever Be As Good As The Irish? (I'm just lookin start trouble)
I've noticed that the accents in some parts of Western Ireland remind me of the accents in some parts of West Wales. Perhaps it's because both regions are relatively quiet agricultural communities.
Trevor
# Posted on January 30th 2004 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Will tThe Rest Of Us Ever Be As Good As The Irish? (I'm just lookin start trouble)
I just happened to run across your website the other night and now you turn up here as I recently have. I'll say this... Your an excellent player and I don't care how you talk. The music is in the blood. And it's obviously in your blood.
# Posted on January 30th 2004 by The Merry Highlander
Re: Will tThe Rest Of Us Ever Be As Good As The Irish? (I'm just lookin start trouble)
Not altogether sure if I understand you (uh no, it's not the accent): Do you mean that other Americans are disappointed to find out you're from da Bronx instead of the Auld Sod? Or is this a reaction by native Irishians?
Well, regardless, I have to agree with the sentiments already posted here. If someone thinks that your "brogue" somehow lessens your musicianship, they deserve a good old-fashioned Bronx cheer. You could always slip on a pseudo-"Oirish" accent and explain that the elocution lessons just haven't quite taken yet.
The fiddle player in my former band used to derive no small amount of amusement when someone, usually native Irish or Irish-American -- no doubt convinced that she must've learned to play by the hearth in the ole thatched cottage -- would ask her her family's name, and she would proudly reply, "Rydzynski!"
Reportedly, on one occasion, the person she gave the reply to thought for a second or two and persisted, "So would that be Clare or Galway?"
# Posted on January 31st 2004 by sts
Re: Will tThe Rest Of Us Ever Be As Good As The Irish? (I'm just lookin start trouble)
Doesn't having a french accent make you a better cook? I heard an interview with a English engineer working in Texas. He said he likes working down there because people thought he was smarter because he has a "English" accent. Gave him an extra 15 IQ point without even trying. Is "Masterpiece Theater" really good, or is it just bad acting with English accents?
Ran-
# Posted on January 31st 2004 by Ran
Re: Will tThe Rest Of Us Ever Be As Good As The Irish? (I'm just lookin start trouble)
I just got back to the states after living in Cork for almost a year. Most of the guys that I played with over there kind of forgot I was American after a few months. Not because I developed a convincing accent (I'm still as Midwesternally nasal as they come) but because I was out playing tunes with them every week and they just stopped caring.
I'm not sure how that translates to stage playing. I can only assume that people who like Irish music in the 'oh like Riverdance' way will always swoon for the accent but people who like Irish music for itself shouldn't care either way as long as you're a good musician, talented, innovative and carrying on the tradition.
# Posted on February 2nd 2004 by suky
Re: Will tThe Rest Of Us Ever Be As Good As The Irish? (I'm just lookin start trouble)
Ah, but what does "carrying on the tradition" really mean?
I came into Irish music from an Early Music background. This is like the SCA of musicianship, trolling thru ancient manuscripts and trying to perform in as "authentic" a style as possible, preferably on period instruments when playing, or just in period vocal style when singing. I still love that material, the music is a lot of fun, but to a large degree the pursuit is just mental masturbation. When you're looking at a piece written in 1211AD, there's very very little likelihood that anyone alive today has even the vaguest clue of how it really sounded back then. (With one notable exception being "Sumer is Icumen In", written in the 1200s, and still sung every year at Oxford to welcome in the summer...) There's also the oddity of playing on viols and viola da gamba and such, all of which went extinct for good reason - because the violin family of instruments is more versatile. I happen to love the sound of the harpsichord, but there's no denying that it's a very limited instrument, and the piano has a far greater range of expressivity. All of this music and everything associated with it is essentially dead; the people who still practice it today are merely sending out an echo of something that has no other connection to the modern world.
Anyway, coming into Irish music with this background, I spent a lot of energy trying to learn how to play it "authentically." I took step dancing classes, so I could see how the dance music actually fits with the dance. I've gone to numerous festivals in Ireland to take workshops, see concerts, play sessions, etc... Ironically, when I asked Gearoid Mooney for his take on authenticity, he answered something to the effect of "if what you're playing pleases you, then it's good."
I think, because he's living in the community that is the home of his brand of music, that answer makes sense for him. If you grow up surrounded by a particular living tradition, it shapes your self pretty completely. Anything you create is automatically done according to the custom of that tradition. You would have to struggle pretty hard to create something outside of that tradition. So for Gearoid or anyone else who's lived their whole life in Donegal, whatever they play, that they enjoy, would be authentic Donegal music.
And if I were happily sitting here in Los Angeles, tuned in to the common customs of this culture, I might play a few licks of speedmetal or punk or god knows what, and that would be authentic American music. But for whatever strange reason, I've chosen to participate in the Irish tradition, not the American tradition, and so the question of "what's authentic, what's in the tradition?" still plagues me. I'm not trying to play "Los Angeles Irish music." Should I be? Maybe that would make life easier. But what I want is that Donegal stuff. If I slavishly copy their styles and techniques, am I carrying on a living tradition, or am I just being a museum caretaker, like the Early Music crowd? If I alter the styles and techniques, am I carrying on their tradition, or am I working in a different tradition entirely? Where does innovation turn into diversion?
# Posted on February 2nd 2004 by HighlandSun
Re: Will tThe Rest Of Us Ever Be As Good As The Irish? (I'm just lookin start trouble)
I meant it in the broadest, least complex meaning of "not f-ing it up in a hat."
I don't think my playing would stand up to much Actual Historical Scrutiny, but I have fun playing it--I'm carrying on the tradition of having fun while playing music.
That Gearoid Mooney quote is really wonderful. If it pleases me, then it's good. Of course, there are some standards of technique and it has to please a few other people to be generally deemed 'good' but in the basic, basic sense of carrying on the tradition, I'm learning old tunes, getting my rhythm down and even learning how to step and set dance so I can think dancing while I play.
I had an intense discussion about traditions while I was in Galway. We ended up, in the course of listening to all these old recordings, enjoying a Johnny McGreevy recording. I am from Chicago. The Irish guys I was with kept insisting that this music, Johnny McGreevy's music, was more my tradition than it was theirs. I had never thought of it this way before. There's a Chicago tradition just as there is a Connemara tradition or a Clare tradition. Even if I end up playing Clare music, my body comes through the Chicago tradition. Likewise, there is a Los Angeles tradition--even if you play Donegal music, your body is coming through the Los Angeles tradition.
And innovation and diversion? I just played a few tunes with a friend of mine. We played Lads of Laoise and she went straight into The First Months of Summer, like the set from the Andy McGann album. Now, I had learned my version of Lads of Laoise straight from that album (tricky first part included) but had never gone on to the next tune. We had a good laugh about it because each of us, on her own, had deemed Andy McGann's version of Lads of Laoise the coolest one that we wanted to emulate. See? His innovation turned into our diversion.
# Posted on February 5th 2004 by suky
Re: Will tThe Rest Of Us Ever Be As Good As The Irish? (I'm just lookin start trouble)
Had an interesting chat with Buddy MacMaster and then Doug Greenberg on that subject, H. Mr. MacMaster didn't think it was possible for someone not immersed in the stuff, but then pointed at Doug as someone who had done it. Doug said that you had to do it very artificially and be really obsessed with it, because there's no way to go back and re-live your life, and after all, who would want to?
On the other hand, I'd agree with suky's lads that there's a very definite Chicago tradition which is part of the larger American tradition of the Irish tradition.
I was just re-reading Douglas Adams's Last Chance to See last night, and he had written about a trip to Japan where he'd gone to see a building. He remarked upon how new and well kept the building seemed to be though it had been built in the 12th Century or so. His guide said yes, it was a beautiful building. And then went on to say that it had burnt down twice in the last century. Adams, confused, then went round and round with him on whether it was a new building or an old building.
To the guide, it was the old building, even though it had burnt down a jillion times since it had been originally built, and was built of new materials. It was always the old building, no matter what it was built of.
Adams finally concluded that it was the *idea* of the building, or rather, the building as an idea that was important in his guide's mind, not what it was built of.
I know this had something to do with the subject, but now I'm not sure what. ;)
# Posted on February 5th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: Will tThe Rest Of Us Ever Be As Good As The Irish? (I'm just lookin start trouble)
Excellent post, Zina. But I think you mean David Greenberg. Doug would be Doug MacPhee, the pianist who often plays with David. David and his wife Kate Dunlay have done extensive research on Cape Breton fiddle styles, producing transcriptions of how specific fiddlers play certain tunes, with very precise descriptions of each ornament. I heard a few years back that there was a backlash in Cape Breton over the idea that Americans would have the nerve to tell Cape Bretoner's how they were playing the fiddle.
# Posted on February 5th 2004 by GaryAMartin
Re: Will tThe Rest Of Us Ever Be As Good As The Irish? (I'm just lookin start trouble)
Whup, you're right, I posted in a hurry. I doubt David would be considered someone telling the Cape Bretoners how they were playing the fiddle. Mr. MacMaster specifically told me that David was both humble and a real learner and that he thought David was an excellent player of Cape Breton. (But then, Mr. MacMaster also said, in his very polite and completely non-confrontational way, that he doesn't care for what some of the younger players are doing with the Cape Breton tradition, either. Or at least, that was the way I read what he told me, and since he was talking at that point to A Member of the Press, I imagine he knew exactly what he said and was taking care saying it, to...)
# Posted on February 5th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: Will tThe Rest Of Us Ever Be As Good As The Irish? (I'm just lookin start trouble)
(I have a tendency to over-analyze, can you tell?)
Suky - there's no doubt in my mind that there's a Chicago tradition with an identity all its own. I don't think the same can be said for LA, because there just hasn't been the critical mass yet.
I can pretty much count all the serious trad musicians on one hand - Frank Simpson (flute/whistle, from Dublin, studied with Mary Bergin), Kevin Crehan (from Clare), Kathleen Keane (Chicago), Cait Reed, Paulette Gershen (whistle, studied with Mary Bergin)... There's literally a handful of people who live and breathe the stuff, all from separate backgrounds, and it simply hasn't gelled into a Los Angeles body of its own.
Zina - I've obviously bought into the notion of immersion. It's worked for me in other pursuits, and I think it works for me here as well, though I can't maintain the intense exposure as often as I'd like. Something else factors in here, that I didn't realize early on. About 5 years after I'd started playing fiddle I stumbled across a tune that was amazingly familiar, and I finally recognized it as something I had learned back in 4th grade or so. As it happens, the area of Michigan that I grew up in was largely a community of Scotch-Irish, and so I actually did grow up with some of that tradition, though I wasn't consciously aware of it. Sometimes I wonder what life would be like now if I had actually appreciated what was around me back then but right, you can't go back and re-live your life...
# Posted on February 5th 2004 by HighlandSun
Re: Will tThe Rest Of Us Ever Be As Good As The Irish? (I'm just lookin start trouble)
What's wrong with not having reached critical mass yet?
Isn't it wonderful that years from now, kids like us will be talking about the good ol' days of the Los Angeles tradition, before it turned into the thriving, ego-centric, stylistically driven perfectionism that it has, that there were people like you just playing for the fun of it and making the music their own? You'll be on 'Early Los Angeles Tradition' music compilation discs--a scratchy recording of yourself overheard in a session, or two tunes caught in somebody's bathroom where the acoustics were perfect. And the kids will be mad for copying your style note for note, like we do with Tommy Peoples and Willie Clancy. 'That's when Los Angeles music was _music_,' they'll say with nostalgia, putting your album into the space-wave audio-techtronic system of their hover-cars and reclining in their light-weight nylon ozone suits as AutoDrive2094 speeds them swiftly over the giant sea which separates California from the rest of the contiguous United Nation States of Cana-Mexicamerica.
And it's all because of you.
# Posted on February 6th 2004 by suky
Re: Will tThe Rest Of Us Ever Be As Good As The Irish? (I'm just lookin start trouble)
Gosh, what a wonderful world-view you painted. We must certainly be getting there; at least, it's already ego-centric! One out of three is a start, right?
Really though, thanks for the post, I feel all warm'n'fuzzy now. It would really be cool to see it all pull together into a cohesively identifiable body of music, and I suppose one day it could...
# Posted on February 6th 2004 by HighlandSun
Re: Will tThe Rest Of Us Ever Be As Good As The Irish? (I'm just lookin start trouble)
This could quite possibly be the only time I've ever made anyone feel both warm and fuzzy simultaneously. I'm not usually that kind of girl...
# Posted on February 9th 2004 by suky