Re: What is the place of the 5 String Banjo in Irish Traditional Music?
I've heard one guy play some really excellent tunes on the five-string banjo. It was on a record, the guy's from Kansas City, and I have no idea if he does more than those couple of tunes, but what I heard was very nice indeed.
What this guy was doing sounded nothing at all like bluegrass banjo, either Scruggs or clawhammer. It sounded mostly like a very well-played tenor banjo. I don't think I'd be very interested in hearing bluegrass styles adapted to the trad tunes, but if anyone came up with something like this guy, I'd be happy to hear more like it.
Re: What is the place of the 5 String Banjo in Irish Traditional Music?
The 5 string in the past had a lot of variety concerning playing styles. Currently it's all bluegrass (Scruggs/Melodic) or "clawhammer..." Which I agree with most--- it just doesn;t fit well with what's current in Irish music.
For a glimpse into alternative styles/ideas google up "minstrel banjo styles" and then you will find a lot of info and diversity... (jigs 2/4 and 6/8, hornipes, reels etc. It's fascinating stuff.
Re: What is the place of the 5 String Banjo in Irish Traditional Music?
The banjo itself, I suppose isn't iconic or commonly played. This fellow though here, plays Irish music very well on a 5 string banjo. He has a unique sound, and it doesn't sound like other Irish banjo-ing. In my humble opinion however, he is good, he "gets it" and he plays really well. So safe to say there are individuals who can play Irish tunes on 5 string banjo's very well, and I would be very pleased to ever get to play,hear in person or meet up with this Rex McGee.
Re: What is the place of the 5 String Banjo in Irish Traditional Music?
I found it a little odd, but when visiting Ireland in March (from West Virginia), almost every session I attended (Dublin and County Clare) had a banjo. I assumed that the banjo was big in the Irish music scene. I was surprised! I did think it fitted in well, though. It's not used much here in the US in ITM - probably because it's a mainstay in bluegrass.
Re: What is the place of the 5 String Banjo in Irish Traditional Music?
plunk111 it's not odd, I accidently omitted the 5 string qualification in my first sentence. They do kind of keep some sort of a bassy plunky thing going, and there does seem to be a 4 string banjo lurking about almost everywhere you find a group of modern Irish musicians. I find that at sessions, if a banjo player doesn't have good speed control then they are just as destructive as anyone else with speed control issues and are even worse, if they are also prone to the loud sticatto a mono-volume thing. A good banjo player respects the shape of the tunes, and can contribute to the group effectively. I don't mind if they have 4 strings or 5 if they are good like that.
Re: What is the place of the 5 String Banjo in Irish Traditional Music?
A four string banjo is a 5-strring banjo minus one string.
Banjos can be tuned in any way a musician sees fit.
Irish can be played on a 5-string and Bluegrass can be played on a 4-string. It's not the instrument that determines what music can be played, it's the musician.
Re: What is the place of the 5 String Banjo in Irish Traditional Music?
I know a fellow who plays 5 string, who lives and plays ITM in ireland. I remember being quite impressed with both his backing and tune playing last time we had a tune, in Donegal if memory serves. I've known him for 25 odd years and played with him in the days before he moved over there.
He also had a spell in edinburgh and can be heard on a couple of the Tron recordings.
Re: What is the place of the 5 String Banjo in Irish Traditional Music?
Halfwaythere...... a 4-string banjo ( ie a 5-string banjo minus its 5th string ) is what is known as a plectrum banjo. These normally have a 22-fret neck, and a longer scale, compared to the 17- or 19-fret tenor banjos commonly found in ITM.
While I agree with your second sentence, yes of course they can be tuned any way you want, and in Old-Timey music there seem to almost as many tunings as tunes, nevertheless the physical set-up of an instrument in some ways defines how and what you can play on it.
Bluegrass and Old-Timey depend on the 5th string as an essential part of the handling and syncopation expected of the music. If you can name or point me to one bluegrass musician playing a 4-string banjo I will be prepared to be amazed.
Meanwhile, I have heard Tom Paley ( a distinguished and venerable American musician ) play a couple of Irish polkas on his 5-string, but he is an exception to the general rule. I generally think of someone like Luke Kelly when thinking of the 5-string in Irish music, using it strictly as an accompaniment.
Re: What is the place of the 5 String Banjo in Irish Traditional Music?
Take it from me Pete there are people doing both tunes and accompaniment on the 5 string and doing it well. Just not that common. The fellow in the link I posted above does both and well.
Re: What is the place of the 5 String Banjo in Irish Traditional Music?
As to the two videos posted; as soon as the group changed keys the banjo-picker was driven to search for his capo and to retune his 5th string ( it's not a flexible instrument ); whilst Bela Fleck, fine musician though he is, was only playing accompaniment.
Re: What is the place of the 5 String Banjo in Irish Traditional Music?
Yes, but they don't usually need to retune as well. And I never said people DON'T, but it is unusual.
I'm still waiting for someone to post a 4-string bluegrass banjo-picker.
Re: What is the place of the 5 String Banjo in Irish Traditional Music?
Finbar Furey, Luke Kelly, Margaret Barry, Pecker Dunne, Tommy Makem, to name but a few, have all adapted the 5 string to their style (Pecker might have even removed the chanterelle now and then).
Probably not traditional enough for the session elite, but they are part of the musical heritage of Ireland.
Re: What is the place of the 5 String Banjo in Irish Traditional Music?
The reason why there are no 4-string Bluegrass banjo-pickers is because it isn't allowed. Have you been to a bluegrass jam? There's a lot that's not allowed.
Re: What is the place of the 5 String Banjo in Irish Traditional Music?
www.melbay.com.irish and celtic 5string banjo Tom Hanaway , isbn number MB95759BCD, most of his tunes are in DGBD, he uses a combination of thumb index and middle. , plus a cd
Sully also has a book which uses different approaches.
Re: What is the place of the 5 String Banjo in Irish Traditional Music?
Guernsey Pete:
I didn't ask for a Banjo 101 lesson but I got one anyway.
Instead of waiting for someone else to demonstrate that "bluegrass" can be played on a 4-string, you could have just picked up a banjo and tried it for yourself.
Someone else did chime in with a very interesting example.
However, there are others out there. Why don't you do the homework this time and provide the links.
Re: What is the place of the 5 String Banjo in Irish Traditional Music?
I found it a little odd, but when visiting Ireland in March (from West Virginia), almost every session I attended (Dublin and County Clare) had a banjo. I assumed that the banjo was big in the Irish music scene. I was surprised! I did think it fitted in well, though. It's not used much here in the US in ITM - probably because it's a mainstay in bluegrass.
# Posted on July 6th 2011 by plunk111
No, that is because some fools think there are session rules and that banjos and bodhrans are frowned upon.
Re: What is the place of the 5 String Banjo in Irish Traditional Music?
"real trad instruments like banjo and bodhran"
The tenor banjo was invented in Ireland?
Interesting.
I was once having a tune on a porch in Kentucky, and a converstaion started about banjos. I mentioned that there were people in Ireland who were taking American 5 string banjos and putting tenor necks on them. It transpired that there was a place in the local neighbourhood where they were taking tenors that were converted 5 string banjos and changing them back to 5 string instruments.
I was trying to devise a system (somewhat lightheartedly) whereby instruments were going back and forth to have the conversion each time. The price would be going up with every conversion, of course.
Re: What is the place of the 5 String Banjo in Irish Traditional Music?
More recent purveyors of 5-string Celtic music include Tom Hanway
and Alan Johnson. Each of these players has a book of tablature with
lots of great tunes. I started learning with Tom's book and then later
found Alan's book. They complement each other very well since they
don't overlap on too many tunes. Both books have lots of extra information
on the tunes, etiquette, etc. Another very innovative Celtic 5-string
musician is Chris Grotewohl. Chris perfectly captures the cool
sound of the Irish Tenor Banjo by playing fluently in single-string
style using three finger picking to achieve the triplets in Irish music.
Chris foregoes the use of the fifth string altogether !
For those interested in learning this beautiful style of music, here's the
two books I highly recommend:
Tom Hanway's book is "The Complete Book of Irish & Celtic 5-String
Banjo" published by Mel Bay. Alan Johnson's book is "An Introduction
to Celtic Music for the Five String Banjo". Both books include a CD
with most of the tunes from the book.
More recent purveyors of 5-string Celtic music include Tom Hanway
and Alan Johnson. Each of these players has a book of tablature with
lots of great tunes. I started learning with Tom's book and then later
found Alan's book. They complement each other very well since they
don't overlap on too many tunes. Both books have lots of extra information
on the tunes, etiquette, etc. Another very innovative Celtic 5-string
musician is Chris Grotewohl. Chris perfectly captures the cool
sound of the Irish Tenor Banjo by playing fluently in single-string
style using three finger picking to achieve the triplets in Irish music.
Chris foregoes the use of the fifth string altogether !
For those interested in learning this beautiful style of music, here's the
two books I highly recommend:
Tom Hanway's book is "The Complete Book of Irish & Celtic 5-String
Banjo" published by Mel Bay. Alan Johnson's book is "An Introduction
to Celtic Music for the Five String Banjo". Both books include a CD
with most of the tunes from the book. Chris Grotewohl's website has
info and tabs in his style of playing.
Re: What is the place of the 5 String Banjo in Irish Traditional Music?
Even if someone plays ITM on a 5-string banjo, it's much the same as seeing a dog walking on its two hind legs, you're not expecting it to do it well, just surprised it does it at all.
OK, that's rude. LOL.
Sorry.
As for finding links myself, I'm such a computer dinosaur that I remember when you didn't have a modem, it was an acoustic coupler, a mahogany box with a telephone-handset-shaped recess in it. THAT'S how old I am. And my university lab used to have to send all its data over to WHO in Geneva, who would process it and send back the results on jumbo-sized striped loo paper. Anyone remember that far back ? So all this wacky stuff you can get now, I enjoy it but have no idea how to make it work for myself. And why should I, with all these helpful computer-literate people out there doing it for me ?
Re: What is the place of the 5 String Banjo in Irish Traditional Music?
Also, Mr T, surely that 8-string banjo is really a bouzouki-banjo hybrid ?
PS Love your adds for Sneakers, but you know they're really called Marathons over here............
....( that's how old I am....).......
Re: What is the place of the 5 String Banjo in Irish Traditional Music?
"But they are accepted in Ireland as belonging, not like them oul foreign fiddles."
Ahh, I see. So the tenor banjo isn't really an ancient Irish traditional instrument then. Without opening up the argument about the history of the bodhran, it's enough to say that the tenor banjo is basically a 20th century beast. How come the Irish are willing to accept such a new fangled gadgement into the tradition but not the poor old fiddle or flute?
Surely, if the Irish were clever enough to invent the binaural stethoscope, the induction coil and the three-point tractor linkage, the tenor banjo wouldn't be too much of a task?
Re: What is the place of the 5 String Banjo in Irish Traditional Music?
FWIW, I was at a session at Jordan's in Clarinbridge recently where a husband and wife from New Zealand sang old Appalachian songs, with him frailing a fretless 5-string. They did 3 or 4 songs over the course of the evening, and didn't play along on tunes at all. It struck me as a bit odd to be hearing tunes from near where I was born, played by New Zealanders, at a Irish session in Co. Galway, but it didn't ruin the flow of the session, and they appreciated being included.
Re: What is the place of the 5 String Banjo in Irish Traditional Music?
"P.S. Have a talk with Tom Cussen if you want to learn something about tenor banjos from a Co. Galway man." Will Harmon
So I take it you've spoken to him? Half thinking I recognised the ugly mug stood with Pete and Tom outside Tom's shop in a recently up loaded photo, was that you Will?
Re: What is the place of the 5 String Banjo in Irish Traditional Music?
Ah, I was looking at a fiddle camp website from a search of the same. You were featured as one of the fiddle tutors so there was the photo of your face, with your name below and I thought, oh that'll be Will from the mustard board then.
My girlfriend teaches also, but she's been put off accepting the invites by some of her pals who've worked in similar situation across the big puddle. Funnily enough a good fiddle playing pal of mine (would sought group teaching advice from the girlfriend before he went) worked in Canada at a camp and he really enjoyed it.
So we'd (well me, in an effort to change her mind) consider e-mailing you for the inside gen. At the time she was losing one of her steady jobs and was a little worried about the fact she'd just bought a house and had a significant hole in the diary. Of course, now she has more work than she can shake a stick at.
Then there was the picture of Pete smarting with his re-cond twice rebuilt banjo with this bloke stood next to him who somehow looked familiar. So there you have it.
I'm good with faces, so my next question is; were you in Listowl Kerry 94'ish?
Your right about Tom and the tenor B in ITM, he's encyclopedic according to Dave Boyle, who of course helped design the tools to make the parts for Tom.
Re: What is the place of the 5 String Banjo in Irish Traditional Music?
Sorry, no wasn't in Listowel in 94. Must've been by handsome twin.
Most of the teaching gigs I've done were a blast, but I enjoy teaching. Plus you get to meet brilliant players (the other teachers). And the food is free.
Re: What is the place of the 5 String Banjo in Irish Traditional Music?
Cool, actually I think it was 95, a wee local melodionist and myself were at an all night lock in tune and there were a few americans there among the company, one a young fiddling fellow not too dissimilar looking to yourself. I thought it could have been yourself pre facial growth and before all the pies, of course.
Re: What is the place of the 5 String Banjo in Irish Traditional Music?
There is a regular 5 string banjo player at a session I play at, he is certainly not the best banjo player frequenting that session and his playing pace is typically 1/8th the speed of the other melody instruments. Any advice for politely suggesting that he not play the same slow marches every week?
I understand that the tuning is not quite so intuitive as either regular GDAE fiddle / tenor banjo tuning or even the EADGBE guitar tuning (I always think from the lowest string up!). I also played with a 5 string banjo player in New Jersey, superb bluegrass musician, his right hand by his own admission didn't like Irish tunes as much though.
I agree with the sentiment expressed by Guernsey Pete that I would be surprised and in admiration for a 5 string player that can keep up at a medium to fast paced session such as the many youtube postings online.
Having said all that, a great musician is not constrained by the rules of thumb of session averages
Humurous aside about bliss' hinting of the banjo being an Irish instrument. I play a string tenor banjo on occasion and at a session a man asked me all about how that thing is tuned while saying "because of course it's not a banjo". A friend of mine commented on this story, "yes of course because we know that the banjo is originally an Irish instrument and its 4 string tenor form is its only possible configuration in all history"
Re: What is the place of the 5 String Banjo in Irish Traditional Music?
"listen the 5 string can be tuned how you like, dgbe gdae cgda,just a question of correct gauge strings, and the high g string can be taken up or down" TWCB
Sure can. Keith Richards rather famously adapted the humble death axe from 6 strings to 5 and used 5 banjoesque tuning(s) for his playing. Not ITM, but he did have Frankie Gavin playing on an album with him......
Re: What is the place of the 5 String Banjo in Irish Traditional Music?
Perhaps the distinction between "satire" and nonsense escapes our man Bliss. Never mind that satire works best when it's actually funny....
# Posted on July 7th 2011 by Will Harmon
It is a USA thing I believe.
But then they thought kissinger getting the peace prize was normal.
We thought it was satire.
Humour does not appear to cross the ocean.
Do you remember the time i said they would eventually have a statue to commemorate me in the USA and to save money they would just use the Statue of Liberty, replacing the torch with a bodhran, and changing the writing on the plinth??????
Re: What is the place of the 5 String Banjo in Irish Traditional Music?
"The reality is 5 string is AWFUL on tunes alas"
I think I'd prefer Margaret Barry's tunes on her zither banjo than some of the whizz kids' stuff with the Remo sound on their tenors.
# Posted on July 7th 2011 by Weejie
If you mean the like of Gerry O'Connor I agree.
I have played much of my musical career with excellent banjo players, but none of them played in the O'Connor "Appalachian/blue grass" style as I WRONGLY call it.
Grates on me, sounds ok for a couple of sets but not all night.
Re: What is the place of the 5 String Banjo in Irish Traditional Music?
Since no one else said it, it is my solemn, surly duty as a piper to explain that the proper place of the 5 string banjo in traditional Irish music is in the dumpster, next to the slashed bodhran and burning accordion... : P
Re: What is the place of the 5 String Banjo in Irish Traditional Music?
Since no one else said it, it is my solemn, surly duty as a piper to explain that the proper place of the 5 string banjo in traditional Irish music is in the dumpster, next to the slashed bodhran and burning accordion... : P
Re: What is the place of the 5 String Banjo in Irish Traditional Music?
One 5 string player Ive heard who can really pull it off is Tony Furtado. If you want to hear DL his Jenny's Wedding/Rakish Paddy on "Full Circle" He does more tunes, usually a set per album. You can tell he has really studied the music and is not just "playing the notes" for novelty's sake.
His style is more reminiscent of pipes or fiddle in terms of ornamentation. He also takes advantage of the 5th string a lot for position shifts. I learned in a email from his that he spent a lot of time listening to paddy keenan and trying to adapt his style to banjo.
There is a youtube clip but his tone is horrible (I hate amplified acoustic instruments) He does a pretty good job with the set staring with "The Roscommon" but he seems a bit rusty with them. You really have to stay on top of the tunes to keep them in shape. He plays a lot of different genres so its understandable...
BTW, does anyone know the name of the second tune?
Another player Chris Grotewhal plays ITM on the 5 string although he uses a more single string staccato approach more closely resembling a tenor banjo. He plays it well though and again, you can tell he is familiar with the music.
The problem I see is 5 string players coming in to a session without having really learned the tunes/style, trying to "fake it" and getting a cold response. They then go and post about how rude irish musicians are in a bluegrass forum ; )
If you want to play ITM on the 5 string, listen to the music and learn the tunes. All the notes are there, youll have to adapt your picking to get them though...
I play single string and melodic style when I try ITM. I dont think about picking techniques when I play though, I just try to get the tune.
Re: What is the place of the 5 String Banjo in Irish Traditional Music?
Yeah, he is a great player. Hes great with slide guitar.... blues, old time, original stuff. His ITM playing is the best ive heard on the 5 string. I have tried to play some of his arrangements and they are challenging to say the least.
Its not "bluegrass style" technique applied to irish tunes, he uses technique to serve the music, not the other way around. I think that is a problem with a lot of 5 string players. They want to fit tunes into bluegrass style and it just doesnt work that way....
Thanks for the info on that 2nd tune, Ive been meaning to learn it, I like it a lot.
Re: What is the place of the 5 String Banjo in Irish Traditional Music?
Cool thread. I had this discussion with Mick Moloney back in the mid-nineties when I was working on my first Irish tune collection for 5-string. We agreed that some tunes work better on 5-string than others, and it was time for a repertoire to be developed and expanded upon. I went on a journey, which I'm still on. I live in Ireland and play all around the country, especially Galway, with all kinds of trad players, many from other European nations. It's a great mix! I play all kinds of music and tunes on a 5-string -- I have played sessions with all the trad heads, characters, and then some. I just got back from sessions in Miltown Malbay, Willie Clancy week. Brilliant. I was playing tunes with Jasmine, a 14-year old box player from Fermanagh who is going to be great. She's only kid, but wow!
It's no big deal, but it's about discipline and desire. I use all 5 strings, not a plectrum (4-string) banjo, and fingerpicks (G tuning mainly and a capo sometimes). It's fun and there are obstacles to overcome.
Music is listening. 5-string is hard, jigs being the toughest to master. But the 5-driver is probably not as hard as, say, the uilleann pipes. I have written a volume on this, on-line, in the Banjo Hangout, for the Celtic League, American Branch, and in Mel Bay's Complete Book of Irish & Celtic 5-String Banjo (101 tunes/68 on the CD). I have often written that technique must serve the music, not the other way around, and it's good to see sentiment echoed in threads like this.
I'll echo other trad players, e.g., Sharon Shannon, who has observed that good musicians help a style of music and the instruments used to play it, and bad musicians hurt a style of music and may discourage others from attempting certain instruments. I wrote in the preface of my book (1998),
"I believe that a 5-string player, no less than any other musician seeking to master traditional Irish or Celtic music, would have to do more than parrot the sound of another instrument; he would have to become intimately familiar with his own instrument and get good training in one or more traditional Celtic styles. He would need to learn the 'ins and outs' of tone, phrasing, ornamentation, and tasteful improvisation. These are skills that take a long time to develop. It's a multifaceted process in the evolution of a personal style. However, with years of careful listening, good tutoring and discerning practice, the 5-string player, using either down-picking (clawhammer) or up-picking (bluegrass) techniques, can give the instrument an authentic Irish or Celtic sound. The player -- not the instrument -- determines how well the spirit of the music is captured and conveyed. Of course, a good instrument is essential."
The 5-string can also be used to play tunes from other Celtic nations and from the diaspora. Iain MacLachlan in Edinburgh plays 5-string in a Ceilidh band, playing sets for dancers. Welsh tunes, Cape Breton tunes, Irish and Welsh Triple Harp tunes, Manx and Cornish tunes and the like all work on the 5-string. It takes practice, just like on another other instruments. The music comes first: so many tunes, so little time. Haha.
Re: What is the place of the 5 String Banjo in Irish Traditional Music?
All the players mentioned above who play trad tunes have uniques styles, no too exactly the same, so this is all a work in progress. All will be revealed, haha.
Re: What is the place of the 5 String Banjo in Irish Traditional Music?
I'm distracted by a husky pup who's misbehaving, but that last post should have read: All the players mentioned above who play trad tunes have unique styles, no two exactly the same, so this is all a work in progress. All will be revealed.
The 5-string is still very much in its early stages in playing contemporary trad tunes, whether they be Irish or Scottish or from another Celtic tradition.
Not all Celtic music is ITM, and the 5-string is being used in Scottish dance music (STM) and in Celtic and crossover styles. It's a versatile instrument, and it doesn't have to mimic a tenor banjo to fit in with other trad instruments, though it can at times. No harm in that either, but the 5-string needs to be approached and respected on its own terms. Chris Grotewohl does lovely things with it, but he ignores the fifth string, effectively making his 5-string a plectrum (4-string) banjo, sounding very much like a tenor banjo, though not its lower register. That works for me: it's lovely stuff, no bother.
Rex McGee, being a fiddler, retunes his 5-string (sometimes), and does amazing things with tunes. His High Level Hornpipe is a tour de force. Mighty stuff.
There are a lot of mighty 5-string players out there doing new and interesting things with it in a trad context. All will be revealed, did I say that earlier.
Some folks may not accept it, but even the tenor banjo is noticeably absent from some trad groups of world renown.
I have to laugh when I see signs at some of the festivals in Ireland that dictate: Only one banjo, or only one guitar, or only one bodhrán. Of course, we know why these narky signs (or unwritten rules) are enforced.
Re: What is the place of the 5 String Banjo in Irish Traditional Music?
Here's a *place* where the 5-string banjo can be heard this weekend playing jigs and reels in Ireland, always the third weekend in July, Drumshanbo, Co. Leitrim.
Joe Mooney Summer School, a weeklong Irish trad festival. It officially begins tomorrow, but there will be sessions tonight, and my wife and I are thinking of going in a little while ... it's only up the road.
This fleadh is right up there with Willie Clancy, the quality of music is of the highest order, and the organisation is impeccable, and it's less messy than a lot of festivals in Ireland, but we won't talk about underage drinking, lol.
We like to bring our camper van and the husky, though he doesn't play an instrument I think he would make short work of a bodhrán, haha. Now that's a good idea, haha!
The Irish language is taken very seriously in some parts of Ireland and within Comhaltas; it's not about one-upmanship in English, the imperial language and a vestige of colonialism, haha:
What is the place of the 5 String Banjo in Irish Traditional Music?
What is the place of the 5 String Banjo in Irish Traditional Music?
Opinions?
# Posted on July 6th 2011 by Surly Boy
Re: What is the place of the 5 String Banjo in Irish Traditional Music?
Nope.
# Posted on July 6th 2011 by AlBrown
Re: What is the place of the 5 String Banjo in Irish Traditional Music?
Not sure, I'd have to think about it. But off the top of my head I'd say somewhere between the tenor banjo and the bodhran.
# Posted on July 6th 2011 by ...
Re: What is the place of the 5 String Banjo in Irish Traditional Music?
I've heard one guy play some really excellent tunes on the five-string banjo. It was on a record, the guy's from Kansas City, and I have no idea if he does more than those couple of tunes, but what I heard was very nice indeed.
What this guy was doing sounded nothing at all like bluegrass banjo, either Scruggs or clawhammer. It sounded mostly like a very well-played tenor banjo. I don't think I'd be very interested in hearing bluegrass styles adapted to the trad tunes, but if anyone came up with something like this guy, I'd be happy to hear more like it.
# Posted on July 6th 2011 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: What is the place of the 5 String Banjo in Irish Traditional Music?
The 5 string in the past had a lot of variety concerning playing styles. Currently it's all bluegrass (Scruggs/Melodic) or "clawhammer..." Which I agree with most--- it just doesn;t fit well with what's current in Irish music.
For a glimpse into alternative styles/ideas google up "minstrel banjo styles" and then you will find a lot of info and diversity... (jigs 2/4 and 6/8, hornipes, reels etc. It's fascinating stuff.
# Posted on July 6th 2011 by The Merry Highlander
Re: What is the place of the 5 String Banjo in Irish Traditional Music?
You can listen to a couple of MP3's of this kind of music here:
http://irish5string.homestead.com/chrisG.html
# Posted on July 6th 2011 by dfost
Re: What is the place of the 5 String Banjo in Irish Traditional Music?
The banjo itself, I suppose isn't iconic or commonly played. This fellow though here, plays Irish music very well on a 5 string banjo. He has a unique sound, and it doesn't sound like other Irish banjo-ing. In my humble opinion however, he is good, he "gets it" and he plays really well. So safe to say there are individuals who can play Irish tunes on 5 string banjo's very well, and I would be very pleased to ever get to play,hear in person or meet up with this Rex McGee.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKExVr4jJ1s&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZswHUlz7ZcM
# Posted on July 6th 2011 by SandyBottoms
Re: What is the place of the 5 String Banjo in Irish Traditional Music?
The instrument doesn't play itself.
# Posted on July 6th 2011 by Hup
Re: What is the place of the 5 String Banjo in Irish Traditional Music?
In its case?
# Posted on July 6th 2011 by Whiddler
Re: What is the place of the 5 String Banjo in Irish Traditional Music?
dfost - that Grotewohl fellow is the guy I was thinking of. What I've heard has been good stuff.
# Posted on July 6th 2011 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: What is the place of the 5 String Banjo in Irish Traditional Music?
I found it a little odd, but when visiting Ireland in March (from West Virginia), almost every session I attended (Dublin and County Clare) had a banjo. I assumed that the banjo was big in the Irish music scene. I was surprised! I did think it fitted in well, though. It's not used much here in the US in ITM - probably because it's a mainstay in bluegrass.
# Posted on July 6th 2011 by plunk111
Re: What is the place of the 5 String Banjo in Irish Traditional Music?
It's probably fine just as long as the player doesn't make an effort to transform the session into a bluegrass or old timey jam.
# Posted on July 6th 2011 by Upsetter
Re: What is the place of the 5 String Banjo in Irish Traditional Music?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=REa2IXbqmlk
# Posted on July 6th 2011 by Joseph Tailyour
Re: What is the place of the 5 String Banjo in Irish Traditional Music?
plunk111 it's not odd, I accidently omitted the 5 string qualification in my first sentence. They do kind of keep some sort of a bassy plunky thing going, and there does seem to be a 4 string banjo lurking about almost everywhere you find a group of modern Irish musicians. I find that at sessions, if a banjo player doesn't have good speed control then they are just as destructive as anyone else with speed control issues and are even worse, if they are also prone to the loud sticatto a mono-volume thing. A good banjo player respects the shape of the tunes, and can contribute to the group effectively. I don't mind if they have 4 strings or 5 if they are good like that.
# Posted on July 6th 2011 by SandyBottoms
Re: What is the place of the 5 String Banjo in Irish Traditional Music?
A four string banjo is a 5-strring banjo minus one string.
Banjos can be tuned in any way a musician sees fit.
Irish can be played on a 5-string and Bluegrass can be played on a 4-string. It's not the instrument that determines what music can be played, it's the musician.
# Posted on July 6th 2011 by halfwaythere
Re: What is the place of the 5 String Banjo in Irish Traditional Music?
I know a fellow who plays 5 string, who lives and plays ITM in ireland. I remember being quite impressed with both his backing and tune playing last time we had a tune, in Donegal if memory serves. I've known him for 25 odd years and played with him in the days before he moved over there.
He also had a spell in edinburgh and can be heard on a couple of the Tron recordings.
# Posted on July 6th 2011 by Solidmahog
Re: What is the place of the 5 String Banjo in Irish Traditional Music?
Didn't have to look too far.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jackeeadio/2480421721/
# Posted on July 6th 2011 by Solidmahog
Re: What is the place of the 5 String Banjo in Irish Traditional Music?
Bela Fleck is no slouch: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kskEIzqP7eM
# Posted on July 6th 2011 by RichardB
Re: What is the place of the 5 String Banjo in Irish Traditional Music?
Halfwaythere...... a 4-string banjo ( ie a 5-string banjo minus its 5th string ) is what is known as a plectrum banjo. These normally have a 22-fret neck, and a longer scale, compared to the 17- or 19-fret tenor banjos commonly found in ITM.
While I agree with your second sentence, yes of course they can be tuned any way you want, and in Old-Timey music there seem to almost as many tunings as tunes, nevertheless the physical set-up of an instrument in some ways defines how and what you can play on it.
Bluegrass and Old-Timey depend on the 5th string as an essential part of the handling and syncopation expected of the music. If you can name or point me to one bluegrass musician playing a 4-string banjo I will be prepared to be amazed.
Meanwhile, I have heard Tom Paley ( a distinguished and venerable American musician ) play a couple of Irish polkas on his 5-string, but he is an exception to the general rule. I generally think of someone like Luke Kelly when thinking of the 5-string in Irish music, using it strictly as an accompaniment.
# Posted on July 6th 2011 by Guernsey Pete
Re: What is the place of the 5 String Banjo in Irish Traditional Music?
Take it from me Pete there are people doing both tunes and accompaniment on the 5 string and doing it well. Just not that common. The fellow in the link I posted above does both and well.
# Posted on July 6th 2011 by Solidmahog
Re: What is the place of the 5 String Banjo in Irish Traditional Music?
As to the two videos posted; as soon as the group changed keys the banjo-picker was driven to search for his capo and to retune his 5th string ( it's not a flexible instrument ); whilst Bela Fleck, fine musician though he is, was only playing accompaniment.
# Posted on July 6th 2011 by Guernsey Pete
Re: What is the place of the 5 String Banjo in Irish Traditional Music?
Ok he uses a capo, but so do 95% of zookests and dadgadists.
# Posted on July 6th 2011 by Solidmahog
Re: What is the place of the 5 String Banjo in Irish Traditional Music?
Yes, but they don't usually need to retune as well. And I never said people DON'T, but it is unusual.
I'm still waiting for someone to post a 4-string bluegrass banjo-picker.
Still waiting.
I'll go and have another coffee.
# Posted on July 6th 2011 by Guernsey Pete
Re: What is the place of the 5 String Banjo in Irish Traditional Music?
Finbar Furey, Luke Kelly, Margaret Barry, Pecker Dunne, Tommy Makem, to name but a few, have all adapted the 5 string to their style (Pecker might have even removed the chanterelle now and then).
Probably not traditional enough for the session elite, but they are part of the musical heritage of Ireland.
# Posted on July 6th 2011 by Weejie
Re: What is the place of the 5 String Banjo in Irish Traditional Music?
The reason why there are no 4-string Bluegrass banjo-pickers is because it isn't allowed. Have you been to a bluegrass jam? There's a lot that's not allowed.
# Posted on July 6th 2011 by RichardB
Re: What is the place of the 5 String Banjo in Irish Traditional Music?
"Still waiting.
I'll go and have another coffee."
Ah well......
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WeS3Snqckr4&feature=relmfu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jsfRxqbcOKQ&feature=channel_video_title
http://www.mirekpatek.com/
# Posted on July 6th 2011 by Weejie
Re: What is the place of the 5 String Banjo in Irish Traditional Music?
Oh, dammit, I've run out of milk, will have to go out to the shop......
.......did notice the first musician is playing on his own......
# Posted on July 6th 2011 by Guernsey Pete
Re: What is the place of the 5 String Banjo in Irish Traditional Music?
www.melbay.com.irish and celtic 5string banjo Tom Hanaway , isbn number MB95759BCD, most of his tunes are in DGBD, he uses a combination of thumb index and middle. , plus a cd
Sully also has a book which uses different approaches.
# Posted on July 6th 2011 by Joseph Tailyour
Re: What is the place of the 5 String Banjo in Irish Traditional Music?
It can ALSO be played with a plectrum.
# Posted on July 6th 2011 by Joseph Tailyour
Re: What is the place of the 5 String Banjo in Irish Traditional Music?
"did notice the first musician is playing on his own"
You'd expect that on a tuition video.
There's a picture of him with lots of banjo players:
http://www.mirekpatek.com/JKBF_BanjoFinale.jpg
Or with Earl Scruggs:
http://www.mirekpatek.com/JKBF_ScruggsandPatek.jpg
But you never asked for a 'group video'
Perhaps he plays with a group. You can ask him:
http://www.thesession.org/members/display/20812
He's apparently playing Irish music in that tenor 'bluegrass' tuning now.
# Posted on July 6th 2011 by Weejie
Re: What is the place of the 5 String Banjo in Irish Traditional Music?
Guernsey Pete:
I didn't ask for a Banjo 101 lesson but I got one anyway.
Instead of waiting for someone else to demonstrate that "bluegrass" can be played on a 4-string, you could have just picked up a banjo and tried it for yourself.
Someone else did chime in with a very interesting example.
However, there are others out there. Why don't you do the homework this time and provide the links.
# Posted on July 6th 2011 by halfwaythere
Flute teacher?
Hi, I am wondering if anybody knows of a flute teacher in the Galway/Connemara area? My daughter would love to get lessons.
# Posted on July 6th 2011 by an spailpín fánach
Re: What is the place of the 5 String Banjo in Irish Traditional Music?
Not sure, I'd have to think about it. But off the top of my head I'd say somewhere between the tenor banjo and the bodhran.
# Posted on July 6th 2011 by llig leahcim
Are ye mad. The 5 string will never be up there with the real trad instruments like banjo and bodhran, sure them is the essentials.
Sorry but I reckon it will be down there with the other "foreign" invaders like fiddle and flute.
Now don't get me wrong, I like a bit of fiddle and flute....
# Posted on July 6th 2011 by bodhran bliss
Re: What is the place of the 5 String Banjo in Irish Traditional Music?
I found it a little odd, but when visiting Ireland in March (from West Virginia), almost every session I attended (Dublin and County Clare) had a banjo. I assumed that the banjo was big in the Irish music scene. I was surprised! I did think it fitted in well, though. It's not used much here in the US in ITM - probably because it's a mainstay in bluegrass.
# Posted on July 6th 2011 by plunk111
No, that is because some fools think there are session rules and that banjos and bodhrans are frowned upon.
In the real world, like Clare.........
# Posted on July 6th 2011 by bodhran bliss
Re: What is the place of the 5 String Banjo in Irish Traditional Music?
Here's an example of old-time clawhammer playing in an Irish context: http://www.buffalocastle.com/
# Posted on July 6th 2011 by mcswiss
Re: What is the place of the 5 String Banjo in Irish Traditional Music?
"real trad instruments like banjo and bodhran"
The tenor banjo was invented in Ireland?
Interesting.
I was once having a tune on a porch in Kentucky, and a converstaion started about banjos. I mentioned that there were people in Ireland who were taking American 5 string banjos and putting tenor necks on them. It transpired that there was a place in the local neighbourhood where they were taking tenors that were converted 5 string banjos and changing them back to 5 string instruments.
I was trying to devise a system (somewhat lightheartedly) whereby instruments were going back and forth to have the conversion each time. The price would be going up with every conversion, of course.
# Posted on July 6th 2011 by Weejie
Re: What is the place of the 5 String Banjo in Irish Traditional Music?
http://www.kenperlman.com/kpcuts.htm
# Posted on July 6th 2011 by Joseph Tailyour
Re: What is the place of the 5 String Banjo in Irish Traditional Music?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exS8abA82YA
# Posted on July 6th 2011 by Joseph Tailyour
Re: What is the place of the 5 String Banjo in Irish Traditional Music?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E-Y3uQjzdqY
# Posted on July 6th 2011 by Joseph Tailyour
Re: What is the place of the 5 String Banjo in Irish Traditional Music?
More recent purveyors of 5-string Celtic music include Tom Hanway
and Alan Johnson. Each of these players has a book of tablature with
lots of great tunes. I started learning with Tom's book and then later
found Alan's book. They complement each other very well since they
don't overlap on too many tunes. Both books have lots of extra information
on the tunes, etiquette, etc. Another very innovative Celtic 5-string
musician is Chris Grotewohl. Chris perfectly captures the cool
sound of the Irish Tenor Banjo by playing fluently in single-string
style using three finger picking to achieve the triplets in Irish music.
Chris foregoes the use of the fifth string altogether !
For those interested in learning this beautiful style of music, here's the
two books I highly recommend:
Tom Hanway's book is "The Complete Book of Irish & Celtic 5-String
Banjo" published by Mel Bay. Alan Johnson's book is "An Introduction
to Celtic Music for the Five String Banjo". Both books include a CD
with most of the tunes from the book.
More recent purveyors of 5-string Celtic music include Tom Hanway
and Alan Johnson. Each of these players has a book of tablature with
lots of great tunes. I started learning with Tom's book and then later
found Alan's book. They complement each other very well since they
don't overlap on too many tunes. Both books have lots of extra information
on the tunes, etiquette, etc. Another very innovative Celtic 5-string
musician is Chris Grotewohl. Chris perfectly captures the cool
sound of the Irish Tenor Banjo by playing fluently in single-string
style using three finger picking to achieve the triplets in Irish music.
Chris foregoes the use of the fifth string altogether !
For those interested in learning this beautiful style of music, here's the
two books I highly recommend:
Tom Hanway's book is "The Complete Book of Irish & Celtic 5-String
Banjo" published by Mel Bay. Alan Johnson's book is "An Introduction
to Celtic Music for the Five String Banjo". Both books include a CD
with most of the tunes from the book. Chris Grotewohl's website has
info and tabs in his style of playing.
# Posted on July 6th 2011 by Joseph Tailyour
8 string banjo!
......playing tunes and backing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tx7pCR26yOc
# Posted on July 6th 2011 by T
Re: What is the place of the 5 String Banjo in Irish Traditional Music?
It's the musician playing the music that's important, not the instrument....
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jackeeadio/2480421721/
# Posted on July 6th 2011 by On Sabbatical
Re: What is the place of the 5 String Banjo in Irish Traditional Music?
Even if someone plays ITM on a 5-string banjo, it's much the same as seeing a dog walking on its two hind legs, you're not expecting it to do it well, just surprised it does it at all.
OK, that's rude. LOL.
Sorry.
As for finding links myself, I'm such a computer dinosaur that I remember when you didn't have a modem, it was an acoustic coupler, a mahogany box with a telephone-handset-shaped recess in it. THAT'S how old I am. And my university lab used to have to send all its data over to WHO in Geneva, who would process it and send back the results on jumbo-sized striped loo paper. Anyone remember that far back ? So all this wacky stuff you can get now, I enjoy it but have no idea how to make it work for myself. And why should I, with all these helpful computer-literate people out there doing it for me ?
# Posted on July 6th 2011 by Guernsey Pete
Re: What is the place of the 5 String Banjo in Irish Traditional Music?
Also, Mr T, surely that 8-string banjo is really a bouzouki-banjo hybrid ?
PS Love your adds for Sneakers, but you know they're really called Marathons over here............
....( that's how old I am....).......
# Posted on July 6th 2011 by Guernsey Pete
Re: What is the place of the 5 String Banjo in Irish Traditional Music?
"real trad instruments like banjo and bodhran"
The tenor banjo was invented in Ireland?
# Posted on July 6th 2011 by Weejie
Are ye mad altogether, no one in Ireland would be clever enough to invent a banjo.
And the bodhran? If I was to hazard a guess I reckon North Africa origin.
But they are accepted in Ireland as belonging, not like them oul foreign fiddles.
# Posted on July 7th 2011 by bodhran bliss
Re: What is the place of the 5 String Banjo in Irish Traditional Music?
The reality is 5 string is AWFUL on tunes alas.
In a folk group, backing songs instead of another guitar, a la Luke Kelly, Pete Seeger, Harry Boardman. wonderful sound.
# Posted on July 7th 2011 by bodhran bliss
Re: What is the place of the 5 String Banjo in Irish Traditional Music?
"But they are accepted in Ireland as belonging, not like them oul foreign fiddles."
Ahh, I see. So the tenor banjo isn't really an ancient Irish traditional instrument then. Without opening up the argument about the history of the bodhran, it's enough to say that the tenor banjo is basically a 20th century beast. How come the Irish are willing to accept such a new fangled gadgement into the tradition but not the poor old fiddle or flute?
Surely, if the Irish were clever enough to invent the binaural stethoscope, the induction coil and the three-point tractor linkage, the tenor banjo wouldn't be too much of a task?
This has got me puzzled.
# Posted on July 7th 2011 by Weejie
Re: What is the place of the 5 String Banjo in Irish Traditional Music?
Perhaps the distinction between "satire" and nonsense escapes our man Bliss. Never mind that satire works best when it's actually funny....
# Posted on July 7th 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: What is the place of the 5 String Banjo in Irish Traditional Music?
P.S. Have a talk with Tom Cussen if you want to learn something about tenor banjos from a Co. Galway man.
# Posted on July 7th 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: What is the place of the 5 String Banjo in Irish Traditional Music?
"The reality is 5 string is AWFUL on tunes alas"
I think I'd prefer Margaret Barry's tunes on her zither banjo than some of the whizz kids' stuff with the Remo sound on their tenors.
# Posted on July 7th 2011 by Weejie
Re: What is the place of the 5 String Banjo in Irish Traditional Music?
same with Pecker Dunne's tunes. Rough out but very soulful. Thanks for all the contributions everyone, very interesting reading.
I agree with those who say it seems to fit best as accompaniment to singing. Luke Kelly, Pecker Dunne, Finbar Furey, Margaret Barry
If one were to bring a 5 string banjo along to a session and sing the occasional song, how would that be received?
# Posted on July 7th 2011 by Surly Boy
Re: What is the place of the 5 String Banjo in Irish Traditional Music?
Also, funny to note that Margaret can be heard banging along accompaniment to tunes played by Michael Gorman
# Posted on July 7th 2011 by Surly Boy
Re: What is the place of the 5 String Banjo in Irish Traditional Music?
FWIW, I was at a session at Jordan's in Clarinbridge recently where a husband and wife from New Zealand sang old Appalachian songs, with him frailing a fretless 5-string. They did 3 or 4 songs over the course of the evening, and didn't play along on tunes at all. It struck me as a bit odd to be hearing tunes from near where I was born, played by New Zealanders, at a Irish session in Co. Galway, but it didn't ruin the flow of the session, and they appreciated being included.
# Posted on July 7th 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: What is the place of the 5 String Banjo in Irish Traditional Music?
Ask Jerry Moloney in St. Louis via Dublin via Tipperary. Great 5 string ITM banjo player.
http://www.facebook.com/people/Jerry-Moloney/100000174715011
# Posted on July 7th 2011 by dumpingsirkey
Re: What is the place of the 5 String Banjo in Irish Traditional Music?
"P.S. Have a talk with Tom Cussen if you want to learn something about tenor banjos from a Co. Galway man." Will Harmon
So I take it you've spoken to him? Half thinking I recognised the ugly mug stood with Pete and Tom outside Tom's shop in a recently up loaded photo, was that you Will?
# Posted on July 7th 2011 by Solidmahog
Re: What is the place of the 5 String Banjo in Irish Traditional Music?
Yep.
But why would you "half recognise" me? What previous connection?
# Posted on July 7th 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: What is the place of the 5 String Banjo in Irish Traditional Music?
Ah, I was looking at a fiddle camp website from a search of the same. You were featured as one of the fiddle tutors so there was the photo of your face, with your name below and I thought, oh that'll be Will from the mustard board then.
My girlfriend teaches also, but she's been put off accepting the invites by some of her pals who've worked in similar situation across the big puddle. Funnily enough a good fiddle playing pal of mine (would sought group teaching advice from the girlfriend before he went) worked in Canada at a camp and he really enjoyed it.
So we'd (well me, in an effort to change her mind) consider e-mailing you for the inside gen. At the time she was losing one of her steady jobs and was a little worried about the fact she'd just bought a house and had a significant hole in the diary. Of course, now she has more work than she can shake a stick at.
Then there was the picture of Pete smarting with his re-cond twice rebuilt banjo with this bloke stood next to him who somehow looked familiar. So there you have it.
I'm good with faces, so my next question is; were you in Listowl Kerry 94'ish?
Your right about Tom and the tenor B in ITM, he's encyclopedic according to Dave Boyle, who of course helped design the tools to make the parts for Tom.
# Posted on July 7th 2011 by Solidmahog
Re: What is the place of the 5 String Banjo in Irish Traditional Music?
Sorry, no wasn't in Listowel in 94. Must've been by handsome twin.
Most of the teaching gigs I've done were a blast, but I enjoy teaching. Plus you get to meet brilliant players (the other teachers). And the food is free.
# Posted on July 7th 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: What is the place of the 5 String Banjo in Irish Traditional Music?
Cool, actually I think it was 95, a wee local melodionist and myself were at an all night lock in tune and there were a few americans there among the company, one a young fiddling fellow not too dissimilar looking to yourself. I thought it could have been yourself pre facial growth and before all the pies, of course.
Free food! Say no more ;~)
# Posted on July 7th 2011 by Solidmahog
Re: What is the place of the 5 String Banjo in Irish Traditional Music?
There is a regular 5 string banjo player at a session I play at, he is certainly not the best banjo player frequenting that session and his playing pace is typically 1/8th the speed of the other melody instruments. Any advice for politely suggesting that he not play the same slow marches every week?
I understand that the tuning is not quite so intuitive as either regular GDAE fiddle / tenor banjo tuning or even the EADGBE guitar tuning (I always think from the lowest string up!). I also played with a 5 string banjo player in New Jersey, superb bluegrass musician, his right hand by his own admission didn't like Irish tunes as much though.
I agree with the sentiment expressed by Guernsey Pete that I would be surprised and in admiration for a 5 string player that can keep up at a medium to fast paced session such as the many youtube postings online.
Having said all that, a great musician is not constrained by the rules of thumb of session averages
Humurous aside about bliss' hinting of the banjo being an Irish instrument. I play a string tenor banjo on occasion and at a session a man asked me all about how that thing is tuned while saying "because of course it's not a banjo". A friend of mine commented on this story, "yes of course because we know that the banjo is originally an Irish instrument and its 4 string tenor form is its only possible configuration in all history"
# Posted on July 7th 2011 by Paudy
Re: What is the place of the 5 String Banjo in Irish Traditional Music?
listen the 5 string can be tuned how you like, dgbe gdae cgda,just a question of correct gauge strings, and the high g string can be taken up or down
# Posted on July 7th 2011 by Joseph Tailyour
Re: What is the place of the 5 String Banjo in Irish Traditional Music?
"listen the 5 string can be tuned how you like, dgbe gdae cgda,just a question of correct gauge strings, and the high g string can be taken up or down" TWCB
Sure can. Keith Richards rather famously adapted the humble death axe from 6 strings to 5 and used 5 banjoesque tuning(s) for his playing. Not ITM, but he did have Frankie Gavin playing on an album with him......
# Posted on July 7th 2011 by Solidmahog
Re: What is the place of the 5 String Banjo in Irish Traditional Music?
Perhaps the distinction between "satire" and nonsense escapes our man Bliss. Never mind that satire works best when it's actually funny....
# Posted on July 7th 2011 by Will Harmon
It is a USA thing I believe.
But then they thought kissinger getting the peace prize was normal.
We thought it was satire.
Humour does not appear to cross the ocean.
Do you remember the time i said they would eventually have a statue to commemorate me in the USA and to save money they would just use the Statue of Liberty, replacing the torch with a bodhran, and changing the writing on the plinth??????
The furore that caused!!!!!!!!!!
# Posted on July 7th 2011 by bodhran bliss
Re: What is the place of the 5 String Banjo in Irish Traditional Music?
"The reality is 5 string is AWFUL on tunes alas"
I think I'd prefer Margaret Barry's tunes on her zither banjo than some of the whizz kids' stuff with the Remo sound on their tenors.
# Posted on July 7th 2011 by Weejie
If you mean the like of Gerry O'Connor I agree.
I have played much of my musical career with excellent banjo players, but none of them played in the O'Connor "Appalachian/blue grass" style as I WRONGLY call it.
Grates on me, sounds ok for a couple of sets but not all night.
# Posted on July 7th 2011 by bodhran bliss
Re: What is the place of the 5 String Banjo in Irish Traditional Music?
"Humour does not appear to cross the ocean."
Yes, we have an army of TSA agents to prevent just that....
# Posted on July 7th 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: What is the place of the 5 String Banjo in Irish Traditional Music?
"Humour does not appear to cross the ocean."
Yes, we have an army of TSA agents to prevent just that....
# Posted on July 7th 2011 by Will Harmon
Any particular way? You know, Europe to the good old.....or vice versa?
# Posted on July 8th 2011 by bodhran bliss
Re: What is the place of the 5 String Banjo in Irish Traditional Music?
Since no one else said it, it is my solemn, surly duty as a piper to explain that the proper place of the 5 string banjo in traditional Irish music is in the dumpster, next to the slashed bodhran and burning accordion... : P
# Posted on July 8th 2011 by Seosamh Ui Sinan
Re: What is the place of the 5 String Banjo in Irish Traditional Music?
Since no one else said it, it is my solemn, surly duty as a piper to explain that the proper place of the 5 string banjo in traditional Irish music is in the dumpster, next to the slashed bodhran and burning accordion... : P
# Posted on July 8th 2011 by Seosamh Ui Sinan
Ha ha ha ha ha , you are breaking me up Jimbo.
Do you write these yourself or have ye got help?
Keep up the good quips, really funny.
# Posted on July 9th 2011 by bodhran bliss
Re: What is the place of the 5 String Banjo in Irish Traditional Music?
One 5 string player Ive heard who can really pull it off is Tony Furtado. If you want to hear DL his Jenny's Wedding/Rakish Paddy on "Full Circle" He does more tunes, usually a set per album. You can tell he has really studied the music and is not just "playing the notes" for novelty's sake.
His style is more reminiscent of pipes or fiddle in terms of ornamentation. He also takes advantage of the 5th string a lot for position shifts. I learned in a email from his that he spent a lot of time listening to paddy keenan and trying to adapt his style to banjo.
There is a youtube clip but his tone is horrible (I hate amplified acoustic instruments) He does a pretty good job with the set staring with "The Roscommon" but he seems a bit rusty with them. You really have to stay on top of the tunes to keep them in shape. He plays a lot of different genres so its understandable...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjCW7gfn2Jg
BTW, does anyone know the name of the second tune?
Another player Chris Grotewhal plays ITM on the 5 string although he uses a more single string staccato approach more closely resembling a tenor banjo. He plays it well though and again, you can tell he is familiar with the music.
The problem I see is 5 string players coming in to a session without having really learned the tunes/style, trying to "fake it" and getting a cold response. They then go and post about how rude irish musicians are in a bluegrass forum ; )
If you want to play ITM on the 5 string, listen to the music and learn the tunes. All the notes are there, youll have to adapt your picking to get them though...
I play single string and melodic style when I try ITM. I dont think about picking techniques when I play though, I just try to get the tune.
# Posted on July 10th 2011 by mikey5string
Re: What is the place of the 5 String Banjo in Irish Traditional Music?
PS
His playing on his albums is great:
Here are some ITM tunes and the albums they are on...
Full Circle: Jennys Wedding/Rakish Paddy
Tony Furtado & Dirk Powell: The Roscommon Reel / O'Rourkes' / The Famous Ballymote
Within Reach: Julia Delaney / Drunken Landlady
Swamped: Collier's Jug / The Broken Pledge
# Posted on July 10th 2011 by mikey5string
Re: What is the place of the 5 String Banjo in Irish Traditional Music?
ok, last post...
you can listen to samples here:
http://www.cduniverse.com/productinfo.asp?pid=1002737
# Posted on July 10th 2011 by mikey5string
Re: What is the place of the 5 String Banjo in Irish Traditional Music?
That is pretty good picking. The second tune is Bean an Tí ar Lár: http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/1370
# Posted on July 10th 2011 by Weejie
Re: What is the place of the 5 String Banjo in Irish Traditional Music?
Yeah, he is a great player. Hes great with slide guitar.... blues, old time, original stuff. His ITM playing is the best ive heard on the 5 string. I have tried to play some of his arrangements and they are challenging to say the least.
Its not "bluegrass style" technique applied to irish tunes, he uses technique to serve the music, not the other way around. I think that is a problem with a lot of 5 string players. They want to fit tunes into bluegrass style and it just doesnt work that way....
Thanks for the info on that 2nd tune, Ive been meaning to learn it, I like it a lot.
# Posted on July 12th 2011 by mikey5string
Re: What is the place of the 5 String Banjo in Irish Traditional Music?
Cool thread. I had this discussion with Mick Moloney back in the mid-nineties when I was working on my first Irish tune collection for 5-string. We agreed that some tunes work better on 5-string than others, and it was time for a repertoire to be developed and expanded upon. I went on a journey, which I'm still on. I live in Ireland and play all around the country, especially Galway, with all kinds of trad players, many from other European nations. It's a great mix! I play all kinds of music and tunes on a 5-string -- I have played sessions with all the trad heads, characters, and then some. I just got back from sessions in Miltown Malbay, Willie Clancy week. Brilliant. I was playing tunes with Jasmine, a 14-year old box player from Fermanagh who is going to be great. She's only kid, but wow!
It's no big deal, but it's about discipline and desire. I use all 5 strings, not a plectrum (4-string) banjo, and fingerpicks (G tuning mainly and a capo sometimes). It's fun and there are obstacles to overcome.
Music is listening. 5-string is hard, jigs being the toughest to master. But the 5-driver is probably not as hard as, say, the uilleann pipes. I have written a volume on this, on-line, in the Banjo Hangout, for the Celtic League, American Branch, and in Mel Bay's Complete Book of Irish & Celtic 5-String Banjo (101 tunes/68 on the CD). I have often written that technique must serve the music, not the other way around, and it's good to see sentiment echoed in threads like this.
I'll echo other trad players, e.g., Sharon Shannon, who has observed that good musicians help a style of music and the instruments used to play it, and bad musicians hurt a style of music and may discourage others from attempting certain instruments. I wrote in the preface of my book (1998),
"I believe that a 5-string player, no less than any other musician seeking to master traditional Irish or Celtic music, would have to do more than parrot the sound of another instrument; he would have to become intimately familiar with his own instrument and get good training in one or more traditional Celtic styles. He would need to learn the 'ins and outs' of tone, phrasing, ornamentation, and tasteful improvisation. These are skills that take a long time to develop. It's a multifaceted process in the evolution of a personal style. However, with years of careful listening, good tutoring and discerning practice, the 5-string player, using either down-picking (clawhammer) or up-picking (bluegrass) techniques, can give the instrument an authentic Irish or Celtic sound. The player -- not the instrument -- determines how well the spirit of the music is captured and conveyed. Of course, a good instrument is essential."
The 5-string can also be used to play tunes from other Celtic nations and from the diaspora. Iain MacLachlan in Edinburgh plays 5-string in a Ceilidh band, playing sets for dancers. Welsh tunes, Cape Breton tunes, Irish and Welsh Triple Harp tunes, Manx and Cornish tunes and the like all work on the 5-string. It takes practice, just like on another other instruments. The music comes first: so many tunes, so little time. Haha.
# Posted on July 15th 2011 by Tom Hanway
Re: What is the place of the 5 String Banjo in Irish Traditional Music?
Here's my Irish and Celtic tutor/CD and a description from the Mel Bay catalog:
http://www.melbay.com/product.asp?ProductID=95759BCD
# Posted on July 15th 2011 by Tom Hanway
Re: What is the place of the 5 String Banjo in Irish Traditional Music?
All the players mentioned above who play trad tunes have uniques styles, no too exactly the same, so this is all a work in progress. All will be revealed, haha.
# Posted on July 15th 2011 by Tom Hanway
Re: What is the place of the 5 String Banjo in Irish Traditional Music?
I'm distracted by a husky pup who's misbehaving, but that last post should have read: All the players mentioned above who play trad tunes have unique styles, no two exactly the same, so this is all a work in progress. All will be revealed.
The 5-string is still very much in its early stages in playing contemporary trad tunes, whether they be Irish or Scottish or from another Celtic tradition.
Not all Celtic music is ITM, and the 5-string is being used in Scottish dance music (STM) and in Celtic and crossover styles. It's a versatile instrument, and it doesn't have to mimic a tenor banjo to fit in with other trad instruments, though it can at times. No harm in that either, but the 5-string needs to be approached and respected on its own terms. Chris Grotewohl does lovely things with it, but he ignores the fifth string, effectively making his 5-string a plectrum (4-string) banjo, sounding very much like a tenor banjo, though not its lower register. That works for me: it's lovely stuff, no bother.
Rex McGee, being a fiddler, retunes his 5-string (sometimes), and does amazing things with tunes. His High Level Hornpipe is a tour de force. Mighty stuff.
There are a lot of mighty 5-string players out there doing new and interesting things with it in a trad context. All will be revealed, did I say that earlier.
Some folks may not accept it, but even the tenor banjo is noticeably absent from some trad groups of world renown.
I have to laugh when I see signs at some of the festivals in Ireland that dictate: Only one banjo, or only one guitar, or only one bodhrán. Of course, we know why these narky signs (or unwritten rules) are enforced.
# Posted on July 15th 2011 by Tom Hanway
Re: What is the place of the 5 String Banjo in Irish Traditional Music?
Here's a *place* where the 5-string banjo can be heard this weekend playing jigs and reels in Ireland, always the third weekend in July, Drumshanbo, Co. Leitrim.
Joe Mooney Summer School, a weeklong Irish trad festival. It officially begins tomorrow, but there will be sessions tonight, and my wife and I are thinking of going in a little while ... it's only up the road.
This fleadh is right up there with Willie Clancy, the quality of music is of the highest order, and the organisation is impeccable, and it's less messy than a lot of festivals in Ireland, but we won't talk about underage drinking, lol.
We like to bring our camper van and the husky, though he doesn't play an instrument I think he would make short work of a bodhrán, haha. Now that's a good idea, haha!
http://www.joemooneysummerschool.com/
The Irish language is taken very seriously in some parts of Ireland and within Comhaltas; it's not about one-upmanship in English, the imperial language and a vestige of colonialism, haha:
http://comhaltas.ie/glossary#comhaltas
# Posted on July 15th 2011 by Tom Hanway
Re: What is the place of the 5 String Banjo in Irish Traditional Music?
It's not only ITM but other Celtic styles and tune forms that the 5-string can be used.... All will be revealed.
# Posted on October 25th 2011 by Tom Hanway