At what tempo should a reel, a jig, a hornpipe be played? I try to conclude by listening to ITM on cd's but the players clearly have different views on that. I'm also asking when do you play the same reel, jig faster; after 2 pints? when someone is dancing? - and are there certain circumstances when you play the same tune slower?
(The little ensemble I play with sometimes play a "4 pint reel" which is a fast one. (or is it an easy played one like The Teetotaller that we just are able to play quickly?)
Can you decide for yourself how much 'lift' you put into a hornpipe, or are there circumstanses that guides you?
I know that's a lot of questions, but it could really help us to get some answers. And if it is possible to give us the metronome settings or intervals fior reel, jig & hornpipes
Thank you very much
No doubt someone here will give you the metronome settings that dancers insist on (they've been posted here before), but for sessions, the pace is up to you and your mates. Try a search for "tempo" here and you'll get an earful.
Best advice I've heard is never go faster than you can play well.
As for hornpipes, even among hard core and talented trad musicians, there is a wide range of lilt or swing. Some top players do them straight, some swing like crazy. Again, it's up to you--what do you like? And you can play some hornpipes straight and others swingy, or the same hornpipe straight one time and swingy next week.
If you're playing with more experienced musicians, follow their lead. Eventually, you want to do set the swing or tempo *intentionally,* rather than playing it a certain way only because you don't have the technique or control to play it any other way. So experiment and try out all the options. Then decide what you like, or follow your mood, and let fly.
"At what tempo should a reel, a jig, a hornpipe be played?"
Yes.
I realize that isn't very helpful, but neither is "it depends..." But if you're playing for stepdancers, between 112-120 for reels and jigs of various sorts is about right, with hornpipes and jigs for the hardshoe at twice that slow, depending on the dancer's steps. The rest is all subject to your mood and ability.
It's been my experience that speed is a problem for both bluegrass and ITM players. Even when we agree in advance, to not get carried away, once the tune starts, it's off to the races.
It's just so hard not to fall for the need for speed...
There is, as you've noticed, a great deal of variation from slowest to fastest among Irish musicians. Much more so than in Cape Breton, where reels at 108-116 is almost all you'll ever find. Maybe a few 104s and a few of the younger players hitting 120 now and again, but it's a very narrow range. I've found Irish reels anywhere from the low 90s to over 130. (Not including the odd tune slowed down almost until it becomes an air.) The vast majority are in the 104-120 range.
My srong preference is for the slow end of the range. I was in heaven about 10 days ago at a session led by Jackie Daly where the reels were all in the 96-108 range (guessing - I didn't time them). Another magnificent session was at Irish Arts Week in upstate NY last summer, where Brian McNamara led a closed session where nothing topped about 106 in the two hours that I was there. Of course, you'll find examples of sessions with top musicians where they're flying, but there's no reason that it HAS to be fast to be good.
As I've heard Mary MacNamara quoted, "Speed kills."
Thank you for your swift and good answers. Now I've a somewhat lesser feeling of stress! (over ITM, not all the other things in life!
..I think I'll lean back a little ...in ITM......(could that be transferred to give meaning in life?)....yes, it works already!....thank you
You say that youve listen to lots of CDs and cannot come to a conclusion about the speed that trad should be played? There is your answer...whatever you like - there is no "set" speed. Whatever makes you feel comfortable. But I really hate it when people play fast above their level and drop notes all over the place. So just a nice comfy pace.
If there was an exact right way, it would be noted at the top of the sheet music, which of course you would be compelled to play from.
As a general guide, if you're going so fast that the rhythm has become dominant over and above the tune, then you're going too fast.
If people are falling asleep you're probably going too slow.
I heard a fiddler play Farewell to Erin very slowly, followed by very fast - it was great, and neither speed was wrong.
Once you get into the area of "You-are-supposed-to-play-it-like-this" you lose the fun and enjoyment, (and you'll very likely get a visit from the serious end of the classical music fraternity, complaining that you are invading their territory).
My preference would always be for a steady tempo - sorry I'm not au fait with the numbers but Joe Cooley or the East Clare style best describes what I'd aspire to. However, I must admit that in a session situation it's very difficult to achieve this and it's so easy to drift into "a why the hell are we playing at this speed?" mode, but when this happens you just have to hang in there and hope that the tempo can be maintained without it becoming a race! On reflection though I think we need variety in the session because if everything was at the same pace it might become monotonous - there's always room for a hell for leather "Foxhunters" or "Gravel Walk" not to mention "Jenny's Chickens"! Overall though I'd like to see the steady tempo predominate and I'd be very much in agreement with Wayne Webster (see his Treoir article "Speed Kills" at http://www.comhaltas.com/education/Treoir/2002Tr2/Speed.htm) on the subject.
Of course its also relative. A real beginner may feel 'slow sessions speed' is too fast. While someone at the intermediate level may feel that their local sessions average speed is too fast etc etc.
I agree with Mike McDaid, though I'd be curious to know a few examples of tunes that don't lend themselves well to a moderate speed. I've come across a few myself (though off the top of my head I don't recall which), but always felt that it was because they were melodically quite weak. All that they had going for them was rhythm, and that required speed to make it work.
All you gotta do is ask a dancer, Dave - once upon a time there was an inspired musician who was brought out to Sydney as part of an initiative by the local Irish musicians to teach tunes etc - (this being in the days before backpacking became the rage) ran a dance class for musicians so they'd get the feel of that...
personally I'm happy if two things happen:
a) that everyone manages to play the same tune at the same time - that's always good
b) if the courtesy is observed that he who starts the tune selects the tempo (and, of course, the following tunes in the set!) - there's nothing worse than having a tune that you love to play nice and funky and slow ripped out your hands by a bunch of adrenalin junkies!
After that (unless I happen to be dancing and it's too damned fast to get in the footwork) go where the feeling takes you!
Interesting discussion. What Gary said really struck a chord, I know of quite a few tunes that really don't lend themselves well to a moderate speed, on fiddle. Perhaps on another instrument (pipes?) they would do fine, but there are fiddle tunes with e.g. certain string-crossing patterns that, at the right tempo, create an auditory illusion of both continuous drone and discrete notes, both at once. When you slow this down, you lose the effect, and then you're just playing a ("melodically weak") simple sequence of unrelated notes. It reminds me of a very effective demonstration of time-domain multiplexing I once saw at the Ontario Science Center, years ago - a speaker playing a snippet of audio from one recording, and then switching to a separate recording. It always spent exactly equal amounts of time on both tracks, and there was a knob to adjust how fast it switched. At the slow setting, you got say 1 second of one, then 1 second of the other, and the result was completely unintelligible snatches of each. As you dialed the switching frequency up, the two separate tracks became more intelligible, the gaps between them smoothed out and were less obtrusive, until it just sounded like you were listening to two recordings played simultaneously in stereo. All on a single speaker.
That may have been a bit too long-winded for this discussion, but the point is, there are a lot of tunes that are constructed this way, where a note must be sounded rapidly on a "melody line" and then alternated with a "drone" which is not bowed as a legato drone. If you play it as a smooth drone, you get an entirely different effect, and the tune gets mushy. If you play it slowly, you get no tune at all, it's too choppy to hear the connection between the melody notes.
Dance tempo, of course. And to know what that is, you must learn to dance. To paraphrase Hamlet: Get thee to a dancehall! Get on the floor and do it so you do it well. Then when you play music, always dance, whether standing, or sitting.
Too many players play in their head. Music is a body thing. You want to Move people, physically with a jig or reel, or emotionally with a slow air. Both movings are really the same, opposite ends of the spectrum.
If you want them to dance, you must dance first as you play. (I don't mean constant stepdancing in place on the stage, tho it can be done. I mean moving your body to assist your playing, generating dancing energy at your center.) Then you will also know the exact tempo for each tune you play, whether for dancing or listening.
As I've always said: No dance in the player, no play in the dancer.
I love to incite people to dance, even when they are tired and want to sit down! Infectuous Time, generated in your body, then theirs. This is comminucation thru music. - vlnplyr
What tempo?
What tempo?
At what tempo should a reel, a jig, a hornpipe be played? I try to conclude by listening to ITM on cd's but the players clearly have different views on that. I'm also asking when do you play the same reel, jig faster; after 2 pints? when someone is dancing? - and are there certain circumstances when you play the same tune slower?
(The little ensemble I play with sometimes play a "4 pint reel" which is a fast one. (or is it an easy played one like The Teetotaller that we just are able to play quickly?)
Can you decide for yourself how much 'lift' you put into a hornpipe, or are there circumstanses that guides you?
I know that's a lot of questions, but it could really help us to get some answers. And if it is possible to give us the metronome settings or intervals fior reel, jig & hornpipes
Thank you very much
# Posted on January 27th 2004 by fiel
Re: What tempo?
I have different views on that.
No doubt someone here will give you the metronome settings that dancers insist on (they've been posted here before), but for sessions, the pace is up to you and your mates. Try a search for "tempo" here and you'll get an earful.
Best advice I've heard is never go faster than you can play well.
As for hornpipes, even among hard core and talented trad musicians, there is a wide range of lilt or swing. Some top players do them straight, some swing like crazy. Again, it's up to you--what do you like? And you can play some hornpipes straight and others swingy, or the same hornpipe straight one time and swingy next week.
If you're playing with more experienced musicians, follow their lead. Eventually, you want to do set the swing or tempo *intentionally,* rather than playing it a certain way only because you don't have the technique or control to play it any other way. So experiment and try out all the options. Then decide what you like, or follow your mood, and let fly.
# Posted on January 27th 2004 by Will CPT
Re: What tempo?
"At what tempo should a reel, a jig, a hornpipe be played?"
Yes.
I realize that isn't very helpful, but neither is "it depends..." But if you're playing for stepdancers, between 112-120 for reels and jigs of various sorts is about right, with hornpipes and jigs for the hardshoe at twice that slow, depending on the dancer's steps. The rest is all subject to your mood and ability.
# Posted on January 27th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: What tempo?
It's been my experience that speed is a problem for both bluegrass and ITM players. Even when we agree in advance, to not get carried away, once the tune starts, it's off to the races.
It's just so hard not to fall for the need for speed...
k.
# Posted on January 27th 2004 by ketida
Re: What tempo?
There is, as you've noticed, a great deal of variation from slowest to fastest among Irish musicians. Much more so than in Cape Breton, where reels at 108-116 is almost all you'll ever find. Maybe a few 104s and a few of the younger players hitting 120 now and again, but it's a very narrow range. I've found Irish reels anywhere from the low 90s to over 130. (Not including the odd tune slowed down almost until it becomes an air.) The vast majority are in the 104-120 range.
My srong preference is for the slow end of the range. I was in heaven about 10 days ago at a session led by Jackie Daly where the reels were all in the 96-108 range (guessing - I didn't time them). Another magnificent session was at Irish Arts Week in upstate NY last summer, where Brian McNamara led a closed session where nothing topped about 106 in the two hours that I was there. Of course, you'll find examples of sessions with top musicians where they're flying, but there's no reason that it HAS to be fast to be good.
As I've heard Mary MacNamara quoted, "Speed kills."
# Posted on January 27th 2004 by GaryAMartin
Re: What tempo?
Thank you for your swift and good answers. Now I've a somewhat lesser feeling of stress! (over ITM, not all the other things in life!
..I think I'll lean back a little ...in ITM......(could that be transferred to give meaning in life?)....yes, it works already!....thank you
# Posted on January 27th 2004 by fiel
Re: What tempo?
You say that youve listen to lots of CDs and cannot come to a conclusion about the speed that trad should be played? There is your answer...whatever you like - there is no "set" speed. Whatever makes you feel comfortable. But I really hate it when people play fast above their level and drop notes all over the place. So just a nice comfy pace.
# Posted on January 27th 2004 by bb
Re: What tempo?
It's all down to personal taste.
If there was an exact right way, it would be noted at the top of the sheet music, which of course you would be compelled to play from.
As a general guide, if you're going so fast that the rhythm has become dominant over and above the tune, then you're going too fast.
If people are falling asleep you're probably going too slow.
I heard a fiddler play Farewell to Erin very slowly, followed by very fast - it was great, and neither speed was wrong.
Once you get into the area of "You-are-supposed-to-play-it-like-this" you lose the fun and enjoyment, (and you'll very likely get a visit from the serious end of the classical music fraternity, complaining that you are invading their territory).
Dave
# Posted on January 27th 2004 by showaddydadito
Re: What tempo?
My preference would always be for a steady tempo - sorry I'm not au fait with the numbers but Joe Cooley or the East Clare style best describes what I'd aspire to. However, I must admit that in a session situation it's very difficult to achieve this and it's so easy to drift into "a why the hell are we playing at this speed?" mode, but when this happens you just have to hang in there and hope that the tempo can be maintained without it becoming a race! On reflection though I think we need variety in the session because if everything was at the same pace it might become monotonous - there's always room for a hell for leather "Foxhunters" or "Gravel Walk" not to mention "Jenny's Chickens"! Overall though I'd like to see the steady tempo predominate and I'd be very much in agreement with Wayne Webster (see his Treoir article "Speed Kills" at http://www.comhaltas.com/education/Treoir/2002Tr2/Speed.htm) on the subject.
# Posted on January 27th 2004 by Bannerman
Re: What tempo?
Of course its also relative. A real beginner may feel 'slow sessions speed' is too fast. While someone at the intermediate level may feel that their local sessions average speed is too fast etc etc.
# Posted on January 28th 2004 by bb
Re: What tempo?
For those who haven't, can't or won't read the article which Bannerman gives a link to, here's a quote from it which sums it up perfectly:
" . . . the highest compliment a player can receive is, 'what a lovely tune', not, 'what an impressive talent you are' . . "
Dave
# Posted on January 28th 2004 by showaddydadito
Re: What tempo?
I agree "speed kills" but I'd also suggest that for particular tunes "slow never get's there"
Some tunes lend themselves very well to being played at a moderate speed - whilst other's definitely don't
You can't go too wrong if you play at dancing speed!!
# Posted on January 29th 2004 by mikemcdaid
Re: What tempo?
Mike - this gives rise to the next thread: "What is the right speed for dancing"
;o)
Dave
# Posted on January 29th 2004 by showaddydadito
Re: What tempo?
I agree with Mike McDaid, though I'd be curious to know a few examples of tunes that don't lend themselves well to a moderate speed. I've come across a few myself (though off the top of my head I don't recall which), but always felt that it was because they were melodically quite weak. All that they had going for them was rhythm, and that required speed to make it work.
# Posted on January 29th 2004 by GaryAMartin
Re: What tempo?
All you gotta do is ask a dancer, Dave - once upon a time there was an inspired musician who was brought out to Sydney as part of an initiative by the local Irish musicians to teach tunes etc - (this being in the days before backpacking became the rage) ran a dance class for musicians so they'd get the feel of that...
personally I'm happy if two things happen:
a) that everyone manages to play the same tune at the same time - that's always good
b) if the courtesy is observed that he who starts the tune selects the tempo (and, of course, the following tunes in the set!) - there's nothing worse than having a tune that you love to play nice and funky and slow ripped out your hands by a bunch of adrenalin junkies!
After that (unless I happen to be dancing and it's too damned fast to get in the footwork) go where the feeling takes you!
# Posted on January 29th 2004 by triantan
Re: What tempo?
Interesting discussion. What Gary said really struck a chord, I know of quite a few tunes that really don't lend themselves well to a moderate speed, on fiddle. Perhaps on another instrument (pipes?) they would do fine, but there are fiddle tunes with e.g. certain string-crossing patterns that, at the right tempo, create an auditory illusion of both continuous drone and discrete notes, both at once. When you slow this down, you lose the effect, and then you're just playing a ("melodically weak") simple sequence of unrelated notes. It reminds me of a very effective demonstration of time-domain multiplexing I once saw at the Ontario Science Center, years ago - a speaker playing a snippet of audio from one recording, and then switching to a separate recording. It always spent exactly equal amounts of time on both tracks, and there was a knob to adjust how fast it switched. At the slow setting, you got say 1 second of one, then 1 second of the other, and the result was completely unintelligible snatches of each. As you dialed the switching frequency up, the two separate tracks became more intelligible, the gaps between them smoothed out and were less obtrusive, until it just sounded like you were listening to two recordings played simultaneously in stereo. All on a single speaker.
That may have been a bit too long-winded for this discussion, but the point is, there are a lot of tunes that are constructed this way, where a note must be sounded rapidly on a "melody line" and then alternated with a "drone" which is not bowed as a legato drone. If you play it as a smooth drone, you get an entirely different effect, and the tune gets mushy. If you play it slowly, you get no tune at all, it's too choppy to hear the connection between the melody notes.
# Posted on January 30th 2004 by HighlandSun
Re: What tempo?
A very good metronome online for "Whom it may concern" I find it very useful as a guideline
Thank you
http://www.metronomeonline.com/metronomeonline/Default.asp?bhcp=1
# Posted on January 30th 2004 by fiel
Re: What tempo?
Dance tempo, of course. And to know what that is, you must learn to dance. To paraphrase Hamlet: Get thee to a dancehall! Get on the floor and do it so you do it well. Then when you play music, always dance, whether standing, or sitting.
Too many players play in their head. Music is a body thing. You want to Move people, physically with a jig or reel, or emotionally with a slow air. Both movings are really the same, opposite ends of the spectrum.
If you want them to dance, you must dance first as you play. (I don't mean constant stepdancing in place on the stage, tho it can be done. I mean moving your body to assist your playing, generating dancing energy at your center.) Then you will also know the exact tempo for each tune you play, whether for dancing or listening.
As I've always said: No dance in the player, no play in the dancer.
I love to incite people to dance, even when they are tired and want to sit down! Infectuous Time, generated in your body, then theirs. This is comminucation thru music. - vlnplyr
# Posted on February 8th 2004 by vlnplyr