I've been digging into Sliabh Luachra stuff lately, and have found a bit on Denis Murphy, Julia Clifford, Billy Clifford, but almost nothing on John Clifford.
Does anyone know anything about his style, what he was like, etc? From his playing it doesn't sound like he had a very overwhelming personality like I've heard some accordion players have, but it's hard to tell, cause I've never heard anything definite one way or the other. Plus, it's a curiousity that he never plays solo.
Was there any programs done on him like there were with Julia, or is he one of the relatively unknown players of that region?
I remember him well, his style was energetic, I suggest you contact Billy Clifford.
John started on button box, in fact he taught O Leary, according to OLeary, Clifford was the main button box player in kerry area in the forties and fifties, I assume he changed system, to make it easier for playing in showbands, in the 1950S
John was a small man, but he played the PA with great lift.
He worked as a painter and decorator, I remember him being as extrovert, and more of a dominant personality than Julia .
There was a snobbery against PA players in ITM, which I think accounts for him being written out to some extent,
as a Duo they were musically equals,imo, but Julia got more attention because of her duets with her brother Denis Murphy, and her octaving with Denis.
I am trying to remember if she did that with John, I dont think she did, but it was 35years ago
I do not recall his his style being highly decorated, it was more about lift.
When they were playing together you wanted to get up and dance, especially with the polkas
According to the great little booklet that accompanied the LPS in Topic Records Music from Sliabh Luachra series, John played a D/D# box "inside-out", i.e. as an Eb box (forcing Denis Murphy to tune up to play with him), made a number of radio broadcasts, and was regarded as an excellent player.
In London he was persuaded to buy a 3-row chromatic button box - presumably a BCC# - and was flummoxed by it - "wrong pitch" was his comment if I recall correctly. It was then that he changed to PA, with results that some prominent Sliabh Luachra players regard as disastrous.
Bit of a tragedy, really. You'd have thought he could have found a C#/D box somewhere in London...
I heard him play live many times he was a fine player on the PA, Did you ever hear him live?
Which prominent players considered it disastrous?, it certainly didn't stop them getting gigs, neither did it stop other good players from playing with them.
Thanks a bunch. It always seemed funny that John Clifford didn't get as much attention as the others.
That's interesting about Denis. With the Music from Sliabh Luachra, I recently spent time getting all tracks in standard tuning, as the tuning up and down was getting to me. Denis loves to play in C#, except when he's playing with others, with the exception of Julia. Some of the stuff on that recording is sharp too! I know I've heard that some of the recording were sped up/compressed, affecting the tone or speed, but despite that Denis seems to do lots in C#. Julia seemed more in standard or slightly sharper. I do like the C# better myself.
Murfbox - you didn't mention John and Julia's other son, I think he was John, also. Did he play with the others, or was he too young?
Which recordings did John use the Eb tuned accordion? The one polka/Slide set seemed in standard tuning. I agree on the lifting. It just makes you want to get up and dance.
Any idea on how best to contact Billy Clifford? Incidentally, I didn't realize how good a player Billy was until I heard him playing on youtube - I guess some of those old recordings maybe were not as good quality or I just missed his style as I don't play flute.
A very good friend of mine is doing some research on Julia Clifford for her thesis and related to me some choice information on John's life and music. Johnny o'Leary reportedly said John was the best button accordion player he ever knew, but when they moved to London all people wanted to hear (or could hear, in larger dance halls) was piano accordion, so he just up and switched to the new box.
I'll have a listen to some of his recordings and try to give you a better estimation of what makes his style so - stylish! - but I'm only a rudimentary box player myself. On first musical 'glance', though, much of the lift comes from the solid bass accompaniment he uses. I've heard it said some older Kerry box players would have had a more bass-heavy style - Breanndan Begley had some lessons from a melodeon player, as a young man, who would have the bass levers jammed down ALL THE TIME while playing. Must have been a mighty sound!
Cath: I didn´t know the Cliffords had another son. Maybe he wasnt a musician or, as you say, perhaps he was too young.
I played a fair bit with the Cliffords (with John and Billy, less often with Julia) because they played in a pub I used to go to in London.
On a previous thread: http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/27805/comments#comment591383
If you follow the link mentioned in my post on that thread, you´ll see a photo of John and Billy Clifford taken in 1970.
I remember John and Julia playing in a pub in Kingsland Road, East London around late sixties early seventies. Not sure about Billy at that time. I was playing a two row B/C at that time and sat in for a few tunes with them. John was playing the PA but to be honest I can't remember anything special about his playing. What I do remember about the man was that he was pleasant to talk to and was always well dressed. He did however like a drink...come to think of it,,,we all did'
PA players playing trad were thin on the ground aorund North or East London at that time. On reflection the first PA player I knew and indeed I often went to his flat to play a few tunes with him was Johnny Gibney from Co Cavan and he lived in Stamford Hiil, North London. Johnny was a very good player and used to play Trad on the pub circuit with Tony Howley (Sax and Flute). They both eventually moved to live in Manchester. My last meeting with Johnny Clifford was in the Four Ps Dance Hall aka St Olaves at Manor House North London in about the early seventies. I was then working as a drummer with a group in a pub and Johnny was stuck for a drummer. He persuaded me to come to the hall when I finished my gig at 10.30pm to play the drums with his band. His band The Star of Munster Ceili Band where playing the Irish set starting at 11pm. I didn't get to the hall until 11.30 and had a real rollicking for being late by Chris Forde, the owner of the hall. Not a great start. Rushing to put up a drum kit on stage in front of a packed hall didn't help either. I remember I asked the singer how long he was with the band and he said that he was singing in a pub over the road and Johnny asked him to come over and sing a few songs. Anyway we got through the set as best we could but I wasn't sorry when the resident band 'The Tumbleweeds' came back on stage. All part of life's tapestry I suppose and one of many memories from what was a great era.
[John played a D/D# box "inside-out", i.e. as an Eb box]
.....i dunno, i think D/D# IS an Eb box. like everything else about semitone bisonoric boxes, the conventions as to their names have the second letter being the main row that has basses. so a D/D# would actually BE an Eb box, no? a D#/D box conversely would be a D accordion, so on that one you'd play in E-Flat "inside out" on the outer row......i think. i've been attempting this lately on my b/c, trying the b row ......it's pretty cool. b/c is like a D/D# (or D#/D), BOTH of your rows match tuning used for irish sessions, so you learn "on the row" on one, you get the other one for free. kind of. on b/c you learn "across the rows" to play in the D-sesh universe, but you're "on the row" for the C universe and the B universe. it's nifty.
sorry, i forget what i started to say, which is that like seemingly everything about semitone bisonoric boxes, the conventions as to their names are totally counter-intuitive and confusing. you want the FIRST letter to be the "main" row that has the basses, but it's the second.....
@ Nicholas J: I should have said that one very prominent exponent of Sliabh Luachra music - no need for names - told me in no uncertain terms that he considered that John's piano-box playing ruined the records he made with Julia. I said "exponents" because I don't believe this man is the only top SL player to hold such an opinion. But I don't have firsthand evidence of this. (Although I suspect it would not be hard to obtain. )
By the time I met John and heard him play, he was old, unwell and very frail, so I can't judge his live playing. I did find him to be a perfect gentleman and enjoyed chatting with him. As far as the records are concerned, well I wish he had stuck with the button box.
@ceemonster: The convention of naming the outer row first reflects the fact that in most of the diatonic-buttonbox-playing world, the outer row is the primary one.
D/D# and C/C# boxes were intended to be played "outside-in", i.e. with the outer row being the main row. These are old designs - C/C# has been around since the 1880s, apparently. So it's fair to say that a D/D# wasn't intended to be an Eb instrument, but a D instrument.
Playing "inside-out" using the inner row as the main row began with Peter Wyper around 1915, and in the ensuing decades spread to Ireland. With the result that C/C# boxes were played a few decades ago as C# instruments in Sliabh Luachra, press and draw style, and are today used as Eb boxes by B/C players.
Info on John Clifford's accordion/box style
Info on John Clifford's accordion/box style
I've been digging into Sliabh Luachra stuff lately, and have found a bit on Denis Murphy, Julia Clifford, Billy Clifford, but almost nothing on John Clifford.
Does anyone know anything about his style, what he was like, etc? From his playing it doesn't sound like he had a very overwhelming personality like I've heard some accordion players have, but it's hard to tell, cause I've never heard anything definite one way or the other. Plus, it's a curiousity that he never plays solo.
Was there any programs done on him like there were with Julia, or is he one of the relatively unknown players of that region?
Thanks.
# Posted on July 4th 2011 by enirehtac
Re: Info on John Clifford's accordion/box style
that is a very interesting question. wonder how it compared/contrasted with that of johnny o'leary, or sean nos dancer/boxer timmy connors.....
# Posted on July 4th 2011 by ceemonster
Re: Info on John Clifford's accordion/box style
I remember him well, his style was energetic, I suggest you contact Billy Clifford.
John started on button box, in fact he taught O Leary, according to OLeary, Clifford was the main button box player in kerry area in the forties and fifties, I assume he changed system, to make it easier for playing in showbands, in the 1950S
# Posted on July 4th 2011 by Nicholas Jelinek
Re: Info on John Clifford's accordion/box style
John was a small man, but he played the PA with great lift.
He worked as a painter and decorator, I remember him being as extrovert, and more of a dominant personality than Julia .
There was a snobbery against PA players in ITM, which I think accounts for him being written out to some extent,
as a Duo they were musically equals,imo, but Julia got more attention because of her duets with her brother Denis Murphy, and her octaving with Denis.
I am trying to remember if she did that with John, I dont think she did, but it was 35years ago
# Posted on July 4th 2011 by Nicholas Jelinek
Re: Info on John Clifford's accordion/box style
I do not recall his his style being highly decorated, it was more about lift.
When they were playing together you wanted to get up and dance, especially with the polkas
# Posted on July 4th 2011 by Nicholas Jelinek
Re: Info on John Clifford's accordion/box style
Try and get any info. about The Star of Munster Trio. That was the whole family: Johnny, Julia and Billy.
# Posted on July 4th 2011 by murfbox
Re: Info on John Clifford's accordion/box style
You may find some info over on Ceol Álainn blog
http://ceolalainn.blogspot.com/2009/10/julia-john-billy-clifford-star-of.html
http://ceolalainn.blogspot.com/2010/01/john-julia-clifford-humours-of-lisheen.html
# Posted on July 4th 2011 by Catail
Re: Info on John Clifford's accordion/box style
According to the great little booklet that accompanied the LPS in Topic Records Music from Sliabh Luachra series, John played a D/D# box "inside-out", i.e. as an Eb box (forcing Denis Murphy to tune up to play with him), made a number of radio broadcasts, and was regarded as an excellent player.
In London he was persuaded to buy a 3-row chromatic button box - presumably a BCC# - and was flummoxed by it - "wrong pitch" was his comment if I recall correctly. It was then that he changed to PA, with results that some prominent Sliabh Luachra players regard as disastrous.
Bit of a tragedy, really. You'd have thought he could have found a C#/D box somewhere in London...
# Posted on July 4th 2011 by Jeeves Tones
Re: Info on John Clifford's accordion/box style
I heard him play live many times he was a fine player on the PA, Did you ever hear him live?
Which prominent players considered it disastrous?, it certainly didn't stop them getting gigs, neither did it stop other good players from playing with them.
# Posted on July 4th 2011 by Nicholas Jelinek
Re: Info on John Clifford's accordion/box style
That's funny about pitch as Denis generally kept the fiddle tuned to C#, right? You'd think with those factors it'd be the land of A=410.
# Posted on July 4th 2011 by KLR
Re: Info on John Clifford's accordion/box style
Thanks a bunch. It always seemed funny that John Clifford didn't get as much attention as the others.
That's interesting about Denis. With the Music from Sliabh Luachra, I recently spent time getting all tracks in standard tuning, as the tuning up and down was getting to me. Denis loves to play in C#, except when he's playing with others, with the exception of Julia. Some of the stuff on that recording is sharp too! I know I've heard that some of the recording were sped up/compressed, affecting the tone or speed, but despite that Denis seems to do lots in C#. Julia seemed more in standard or slightly sharper. I do like the C# better myself.
Murfbox - you didn't mention John and Julia's other son, I think he was John, also. Did he play with the others, or was he too young?
Which recordings did John use the Eb tuned accordion? The one polka/Slide set seemed in standard tuning. I agree on the lifting. It just makes you want to get up and dance.
Any idea on how best to contact Billy Clifford? Incidentally, I didn't realize how good a player Billy was until I heard him playing on youtube - I guess some of those old recordings maybe were not as good quality or I just missed his style as I don't play flute.
# Posted on July 4th 2011 by enirehtac
Re: Info on John Clifford's accordion/box style
A very good friend of mine is doing some research on Julia Clifford for her thesis and related to me some choice information on John's life and music. Johnny o'Leary reportedly said John was the best button accordion player he ever knew, but when they moved to London all people wanted to hear (or could hear, in larger dance halls) was piano accordion, so he just up and switched to the new box.
I'll have a listen to some of his recordings and try to give you a better estimation of what makes his style so - stylish! - but I'm only a rudimentary box player myself. On first musical 'glance', though, much of the lift comes from the solid bass accompaniment he uses. I've heard it said some older Kerry box players would have had a more bass-heavy style - Breanndan Begley had some lessons from a melodeon player, as a young man, who would have the bass levers jammed down ALL THE TIME while playing. Must have been a mighty sound!
# Posted on July 4th 2011 by Danjo
Re: Info on John Clifford's accordion/box style
Cath: I didn´t know the Cliffords had another son. Maybe he wasnt a musician or, as you say, perhaps he was too young.
I played a fair bit with the Cliffords (with John and Billy, less often with Julia) because they played in a pub I used to go to in London.
On a previous thread: http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/27805/comments#comment591383
If you follow the link mentioned in my post on that thread, you´ll see a photo of John and Billy Clifford taken in 1970.
# Posted on July 4th 2011 by murfbox
Re: Info on John Clifford's accordion/box style
I remember John and Julia playing in a pub in Kingsland Road, East London around late sixties early seventies. Not sure about Billy at that time. I was playing a two row B/C at that time and sat in for a few tunes with them. John was playing the PA but to be honest I can't remember anything special about his playing. What I do remember about the man was that he was pleasant to talk to and was always well dressed. He did however like a drink...come to think of it,,,we all did'
PA players playing trad were thin on the ground aorund North or East London at that time. On reflection the first PA player I knew and indeed I often went to his flat to play a few tunes with him was Johnny Gibney from Co Cavan and he lived in Stamford Hiil, North London. Johnny was a very good player and used to play Trad on the pub circuit with Tony Howley (Sax and Flute). They both eventually moved to live in Manchester. My last meeting with Johnny Clifford was in the Four Ps Dance Hall aka St Olaves at Manor House North London in about the early seventies. I was then working as a drummer with a group in a pub and Johnny was stuck for a drummer. He persuaded me to come to the hall when I finished my gig at 10.30pm to play the drums with his band. His band The Star of Munster Ceili Band where playing the Irish set starting at 11pm. I didn't get to the hall until 11.30 and had a real rollicking for being late by Chris Forde, the owner of the hall. Not a great start. Rushing to put up a drum kit on stage in front of a packed hall didn't help either. I remember I asked the singer how long he was with the band and he said that he was singing in a pub over the road and Johnny asked him to come over and sing a few songs. Anyway we got through the set as best we could but I wasn't sorry when the resident band 'The Tumbleweeds' came back on stage. All part of life's tapestry I suppose and one of many memories from what was a great era.
# Posted on July 5th 2011 by Free Reed
Re: Info on John Clifford's accordion/box style
[John played a D/D# box "inside-out", i.e. as an Eb box]
.....i dunno, i think D/D# IS an Eb box. like everything else about semitone bisonoric boxes, the conventions as to their names have the second letter being the main row that has basses. so a D/D# would actually BE an Eb box, no? a D#/D box conversely would be a D accordion, so on that one you'd play in E-Flat "inside out" on the outer row......i think. i've been attempting this lately on my b/c, trying the b row ......it's pretty cool. b/c is like a D/D# (or D#/D), BOTH of your rows match tuning used for irish sessions, so you learn "on the row" on one, you get the other one for free. kind of. on b/c you learn "across the rows" to play in the D-sesh universe, but you're "on the row" for the C universe and the B universe. it's nifty.
# Posted on July 5th 2011 by ceemonster
Re: Info on John Clifford's accordion/box style
sorry, i forget what i started to say, which is that like seemingly everything about semitone bisonoric boxes, the conventions as to their names are totally counter-intuitive and confusing. you want the FIRST letter to be the "main" row that has the basses, but it's the second.....
# Posted on July 5th 2011 by ceemonster
Re: Info on John Clifford's accordion/box style
@ Nicholas J: I should have said that one very prominent exponent of Sliabh Luachra music - no need for names - told me in no uncertain terms that he considered that John's piano-box playing ruined the records he made with Julia. I said "exponents" because I don't believe this man is the only top SL player to hold such an opinion. But I don't have firsthand evidence of this. (Although I suspect it would not be hard to obtain. )
By the time I met John and heard him play, he was old, unwell and very frail, so I can't judge his live playing. I did find him to be a perfect gentleman and enjoyed chatting with him. As far as the records are concerned, well I wish he had stuck with the button box.
@ceemonster: The convention of naming the outer row first reflects the fact that in most of the diatonic-buttonbox-playing world, the outer row is the primary one.
D/D# and C/C# boxes were intended to be played "outside-in", i.e. with the outer row being the main row. These are old designs - C/C# has been around since the 1880s, apparently. So it's fair to say that a D/D# wasn't intended to be an Eb instrument, but a D instrument.
Playing "inside-out" using the inner row as the main row began with Peter Wyper around 1915, and in the ensuing decades spread to Ireland. With the result that C/C# boxes were played a few decades ago as C# instruments in Sliabh Luachra, press and draw style, and are today used as Eb boxes by B/C players.
# Posted on July 5th 2011 by Jeeves Tones
Re: Info on John Clifford's accordion/box style
[C/C# boxes....are today used as Eb boxes by B/C players]
i knew that part, but not the rest. very interesting indeed....
# Posted on July 5th 2011 by ceemonster
Re: Info on John Clifford's accordion/box style
if i'm not misremembering, the lovely dance player donie nolan plays a c/c# sometimes......he is one really nice b/c player...
# Posted on July 9th 2011 by ceemonster
Re: Info on John Clifford's accordion/box style
Billy Clifford lives in Tipperary Town and playes regularly around the area, I have played many sessions with him.
# Posted on August 9th 2011 by Mikea