Hi all
I find that my E string on my violin sounds flat when I tune to perfection with a tuner. I have to sharpen it by nearly 10cents.
It then sounds 'right' to my ear but my worry is that maybe I am wrong and it sounds 'right' when perfectly tuned to the tuner to more experienced players. I have never really understood the two strings together method of tuning. Is a violin tuned by an experienced player who knows how to tune properly sharp on the E string if checked by a tuner?? Help!!!
We could just skip right to, "Well, depending on whether it's an up-bow or down-bow, hard or soft attack, more or less rosin, the pitch will actually vary by noticeable amounts, so the one string is never even in tune with itself anyway." Hope that helps! :P
Sounds 'right' relative to what? The other open strings? The note you were expecting? Try this -- play the harmonic at the halfway point on the E string using your little finger (what would be the twelfth fret if it had frets). Make fine adjustments until you get the best sound, then using your index finger find the same harmonic on the A string (what would be the seventh fret) about two inches nearer the nut. The two notes should be the same. You can do the same for the other strings, just move your hand across one string at a time. It only takes a couple of seconds, and I always do it to check that I'm in tune with myself.
The obvious first question is: What sort of tuner are you using? Some of the cheap ones can be miles off, others go off as the battery goes flat. Trust your ear rather than the tuner, and if possible borrow someone elses tuner to check yours against.
"I would say your ear is wrong and the tuner is right."
Ye of little faith!
Cue the ET/JT arguments...
Yes - if the tuner is set up for equal temperament then it is, by design, out of tune. But there are many tuners on the market now that have instrument-specific settings and the violin setting would surely tune to 'perfect' (i.e. untempered) 5ths. If dockbogggs is using a general purpose chromatic tuner, thast might go some way to explaining the problem. But an untempered 5th is in fact only *2 cents* wider than an untempered one, so that would not explain the 10 cent discrepancy.
That said, electronic tuners are by no means infallible. I regularly attend sessions where players rely on their gadgets to get in tune - yet everyone seems to be out of tune with one another notwithstanding. This leaves the by-ear-tuning minority in a maddening quandary as to who to tune to - I frequently find myself retuning each time someone starts a tune.
dockbogggs - I do not have a definitive answer to this particular problem. It could be your tuner or it could be your ear that is at fault. But the important thing is not to stop trusting your ear - keep listening and honing your listening skills. Musicians managed for centuries to get by with no more than a tuning fork; the more we rely on robots to do our work for us, the less capable we become of doing it for ourselves (...he says, as he stares at a computer screen).
A couple of really good fiddle players I know tune their E strings a little bit sharp, but when they play it sounds right. I've never really worked out why or how it works and neither have they. Both these players play percussively with plenty of bite so it's possible that the E strings responds differently to that style of bowing and that by tuning it a but sharp compensates for this.
All four strings -- but most noticeably the e -- tend to flatten a little when pressure is applied. It could be that the tendency not to press much when tuning so as to avoid distorting the note could be what's happening there llig.
isn't it that pressing the string hard bends it out of line more, so it's longer, so it's lower? i wish i understood all this, and that i had sharper ears, but if tuning by ear, my e string does always register a bit sharp on an electronic tuner. maybe that means my ear is getting better, i really hope so.
If you're bending it out of line between two fixed points, then you're increasing the tension by stretching the string further - try it with an elastic band between two fingers. So by my reckoning that would raise the pitch not lower it. The lowest tone that any string can play is its open pitch - anything else will raise it.
Ian, the link provided by Smash seems to conclude that the pitch does indeed raise. As it always does when you finger the string.
No mystery there. Whether you hold a note down on the string, shortening it's length, or bend a note (as on a guitar) and stretch the string, the pitch necessarily goes higher.
I suspect what dockboggs is struggling with is tuning to perfect 5ths on open strings, vs. most electronic tuners being calibrated to equal temperament, which will not give you a perfect 5th for tuning a fiddle.
If you increase the tension of a string and pluck it, the pitch rises, but that's not what's happening on the fiddle: the bow interferes with the natural frequency by mechanically slowing the rate of vibration. I'm not a physicist so I can't explain it any more than I can explain how a note on a harmonica can be bent . I just know that it happens.
Why not get a "more experienced player" to tune it then check it with your tuner? It will answer your question - and the more experienced player might explain and demonstrate "the two strings together method" while you are there. I've a sneaky suspicion that your ears are not deceiving you as much as your tuner.
gam, if you accept the explanations on the link provided by Smash, the bow still raises the pitch. It's only in the case of crunching the string with over pressure that you hear lower subharmonics.
thanks all for your great replies. Very helpful indeed. I have recently got a new teacher and she explained over almost all the lesson about how to tune "properly" including the physical difficulties and uncomfortable left arm positon when doing it and how it all settles down. I am getting there with it. A strange thing happened though. I carefully tuned it to the best of my abilty with the two strings together method and after this the E string was dead on with the electronic tuner. The E string still however sounded flat when bowed on its own. I am liking the idea of a tuner that is specific for violins in perfect fifths and not equal tempered. But then I need to just get good at tuning properly, so I had better not persue the idea. Thanks again all. [I actually thought no one had replied as there was no email about it but now I am guessing that no email notification come]
Puzzled by my E string
Puzzled by my E string
Hi all
I find that my E string on my violin sounds flat when I tune to perfection with a tuner. I have to sharpen it by nearly 10cents.
It then sounds 'right' to my ear but my worry is that maybe I am wrong and it sounds 'right' when perfectly tuned to the tuner to more experienced players. I have never really understood the two strings together method of tuning. Is a violin tuned by an experienced player who knows how to tune properly sharp on the E string if checked by a tuner?? Help!!!
# Posted on July 3rd 2011 by dockbogggs
Re: Puzzled by my E string
Cue the ET/JT arguments...
# Posted on July 3rd 2011 by SmashTheWindows
Re: Puzzled by my E string
Maybe we should have an argument about user names instead. It might be more productive...
# Posted on July 3rd 2011 by Dragut Reis
Re: Puzzled by my E string
Bridge in the right place?
# Posted on July 3rd 2011 by Dont
Re: Puzzled by my E string
We could just skip right to, "Well, depending on whether it's an up-bow or down-bow, hard or soft attack, more or less rosin, the pitch will actually vary by noticeable amounts, so the one string is never even in tune with itself anyway." Hope that helps! :P
# Posted on July 3rd 2011 by Danjo
Re: Puzzled by my E string
dockbogggs: this will help http://www.violinist.com/discussion/response.cfm?id=11040
# Posted on July 3rd 2011 by RichardB
Re: Puzzled by my E string
Sounds 'right' relative to what? The other open strings? The note you were expecting? Try this -- play the harmonic at the halfway point on the E string using your little finger (what would be the twelfth fret if it had frets). Make fine adjustments until you get the best sound, then using your index finger find the same harmonic on the A string (what would be the seventh fret) about two inches nearer the nut. The two notes should be the same. You can do the same for the other strings, just move your hand across one string at a time. It only takes a couple of seconds, and I always do it to check that I'm in tune with myself.
# Posted on July 3rd 2011 by gam
Re: Puzzled by my E string
The obvious first question is: What sort of tuner are you using? Some of the cheap ones can be miles off, others go off as the battery goes flat. Trust your ear rather than the tuner, and if possible borrow someone elses tuner to check yours against.
# Posted on July 3rd 2011 by skreech
Re: Puzzled by my E string
I would say your ear is wrong and the tuner is right. Higher
range notes tend to sound "flat" even when in tune until you
get used to it.
# Posted on July 4th 2011 by Hup
Re: Puzzled by my E string
"I would say your ear is wrong and the tuner is right."
Ye of little faith!
Cue the ET/JT arguments...
Yes - if the tuner is set up for equal temperament then it is, by design, out of tune. But there are many tuners on the market now that have instrument-specific settings and the violin setting would surely tune to 'perfect' (i.e. untempered) 5ths. If dockbogggs is using a general purpose chromatic tuner, thast might go some way to explaining the problem. But an untempered 5th is in fact only *2 cents* wider than an untempered one, so that would not explain the 10 cent discrepancy.
That said, electronic tuners are by no means infallible. I regularly attend sessions where players rely on their gadgets to get in tune - yet everyone seems to be out of tune with one another notwithstanding. This leaves the by-ear-tuning minority in a maddening quandary as to who to tune to - I frequently find myself retuning each time someone starts a tune.
dockbogggs - I do not have a definitive answer to this particular problem. It could be your tuner or it could be your ear that is at fault. But the important thing is not to stop trusting your ear - keep listening and honing your listening skills. Musicians managed for centuries to get by with no more than a tuning fork; the more we rely on robots to do our work for us, the less capable we become of doing it for ourselves (...he says, as he stares at a computer screen).
# Posted on July 4th 2011 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Puzzled by my E string
A couple of really good fiddle players I know tune their E strings a little bit sharp, but when they play it sounds right. I've never really worked out why or how it works and neither have they. Both these players play percussively with plenty of bite so it's possible that the E strings responds differently to that style of bowing and that by tuning it a but sharp compensates for this.
# Posted on July 4th 2011 by ...
Re: Puzzled by my E string
All four strings -- but most noticeably the e -- tend to flatten a little when pressure is applied. It could be that the tendency not to press much when tuning so as to avoid distorting the note could be what's happening there llig.
# Posted on July 4th 2011 by gam
Re: Puzzled by my E string
Yep, now I think about it, that must be what's happening. So, if you do press quite hard with the bow, tune your E string slightly sharp.
# Posted on July 4th 2011 by ...
Re: Puzzled by my E string
Why do they flatten? I would have thought that applying pressure wold tension the string and send it sharp.
# Posted on July 4th 2011 by ian stock
Re: Puzzled by my E string
isn't it that pressing the string hard bends it out of line more, so it's longer, so it's lower? i wish i understood all this, and that i had sharper ears, but if tuning by ear, my e string does always register a bit sharp on an electronic tuner. maybe that means my ear is getting better, i really hope so.
# Posted on July 4th 2011 by full measure
Re: Puzzled by my E string
If you're bending it out of line between two fixed points, then you're increasing the tension by stretching the string further - try it with an elastic band between two fingers. So by my reckoning that would raise the pitch not lower it. The lowest tone that any string can play is its open pitch - anything else will raise it.
# Posted on July 4th 2011 by ian stock
Re: Puzzled by my E string
I take it you don't play the fiddle then. Ian.
# Posted on July 4th 2011 by gam
Re: Puzzled by my E string
Go on then. Show me why I'm wrong. As usual.
# Posted on July 4th 2011 by ian stock
Re: Puzzled by my E string
For those who are interested, http://www.violinist.com/discussion/response.cfm?ID=19859
# Posted on July 4th 2011 by SmashTheWindows
Re: Puzzled by my E string
Hmm. interesting. So how do you explain string bending on a guitar?
# Posted on July 4th 2011 by ian stock
Re: Puzzled by my E string
Ian, the link provided by Smash seems to conclude that the pitch does indeed raise. As it always does when you finger the string.
No mystery there. Whether you hold a note down on the string, shortening it's length, or bend a note (as on a guitar) and stretch the string, the pitch necessarily goes higher.
I suspect what dockboggs is struggling with is tuning to perfect 5ths on open strings, vs. most electronic tuners being calibrated to equal temperament, which will not give you a perfect 5th for tuning a fiddle.
# Posted on July 4th 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: Puzzled by my E string
ok, will, i'll buy that: i still think my ear is getting better! kj
# Posted on July 5th 2011 by full measure
Re: Puzzled by my E string
If you increase the tension of a string and pluck it, the pitch rises, but that's not what's happening on the fiddle: the bow interferes with the natural frequency by mechanically slowing the rate of vibration. I'm not a physicist so I can't explain it any more than I can explain how a note on a harmonica can be bent . I just know that it happens.
# Posted on July 5th 2011 by gam
Re: Puzzled by my E string
Why not get a "more experienced player" to tune it then check it with your tuner? It will answer your question - and the more experienced player might explain and demonstrate "the two strings together method" while you are there. I've a sneaky suspicion that your ears are not deceiving you as much as your tuner.
# Posted on July 5th 2011 by Weejie
Re: Puzzled by my E string
gam, if you accept the explanations on the link provided by Smash, the bow still raises the pitch. It's only in the case of crunching the string with over pressure that you hear lower subharmonics.
# Posted on July 5th 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: Puzzled by my E string
thanks all for your great replies. Very helpful indeed. I have recently got a new teacher and she explained over almost all the lesson about how to tune "properly" including the physical difficulties and uncomfortable left arm positon when doing it and how it all settles down. I am getting there with it. A strange thing happened though. I carefully tuned it to the best of my abilty with the two strings together method and after this the E string was dead on with the electronic tuner. The E string still however sounded flat when bowed on its own. I am liking the idea of a tuner that is specific for violins in perfect fifths and not equal tempered. But then I need to just get good at tuning properly, so I had better not persue the idea. Thanks again all. [I actually thought no one had replied as there was no email about it but now I am guessing that no email notification come]
# Posted on July 7th 2011 by dockbogggs