Forgive me if you've seen this question a million times. I've done a search but can't find anything specifically about correctness.
I'm currently in Ireland on a study abroad tour, and I went to a few sessions in Dublin. One bodhrán player swore that you should keep your wrist straight, which got me thinking about the way I play, which is in the Kerry style with a bent wrist. I've found some places on the internet that say that the bent wrist style is also accepted, but most of the videos of good bodhrán players I've found on youtube are of straight wrist players.
I'm going to be in Galway in a couple of days, and I plan to go to other sessions and get more pointers from other people, but I'd also like to know what people think here. So, is one way considered more proper? If I keep playing with a bent wrist, am I going to be marked as a substandard bodhrán player? Or is my only worry the issue of wrist strain and carpal tunnel? I'm fairly proficient already--I'm comfortable with rolls and so forth, and I'm not thrilled with the idea of learning to play all over again, but I'm wondering if it might be a prudent move . . .
I may seem a bit uneducated here, so bear with me; I'm new to session culture. My original music teacher is a bit . . . casual about his approach to Irish music, and I'd like to start out my own playing as correctly as possible.
I'll bring the popcorn But on a serious note, i'm not sure of the bent wrist. The instruments i know of require a straight wrist. I know that wrist bent downward is bad, but as of bent upward i'm not so sure.
Anyone who tells you there's a correct style of playing the bodhran is having you on. If you must play it, play it in time and with restraint, and preferably somewhere else - beyond that, it's up to you.
I hope your teacher has given you fair warning that carpal tunnel may not be inevitable, but no matter how you play, the slagging -- both good-natured and not so much -- will be. If you can play softly and in time and take the slagging in good humour, you'll be fine.
I have been playing bodhran for 35 years and actually had to think about the wrist thing. Obviously i have NEVER noticed anyone else's wrist style.
But perhaps the Greeks among us (bouzouki bangers) will be able to enlighten you.
Oh one bit of advice, make sure you can HEAR the drum above the melody otherwise it is pointless. You may have to hit it really hard if you are unfortunate enough to play at sessions with those accursed foot tappers.
Whichever technique works *and doesn't hurt you*! I got pretty good using the bent wrist technique but I wish I'd used a straight wrist. Maybe I wouldn't have developed a near crippling repetitive motion injury, carpal tunnel syndrome (tested for and diagnosed) in my right arm only. Yeah, it hurt all the way up to my elbow. I practiced a lot and developed my forearm till I looked like a tennis with a larger wrist might not be at as much risk as I was.
This might be a good option - hands-free bodhran playing.
Free to drink, tap your foot, play with your iphone and play tunes
all at the same time (or sequentially) while keeping the drum going:
I approve of the hands-off approach, but not the pedal.
If you use your psycho-kinetic powers to play the drum, you'll certainly avoid carpal tunnel issues. It's also very good for your rhythm - you'll never play off beat.
Refresh on why Bodhran players are attacked so much? It was said before that it's because a lot of Bodhran players treat it like it's easy, like they don't have to learn it, that they're too lazy to take the time to learn a real instrument. But i don't think those are the only reasons. The way some folks act here is as if the Bodhran itself was bad, not so much the player. What's your problem with the Bodhran?
You've pretty well summarized it 'learner. Plus you get the phenomenon
of four bodhrans showing up all at once. There are some really
good ones around, but too often it's people who want to participate
in the session experience without doing any work - learning tunes,
learning to play an instrument, etc. Sometimes they can actively wreck
a session by playing out of time and too loud. One time I sat next to
a guy who was beating the crap out of really big one with a hairbrush.
I could hardly hear myself playing a flute.
Bodhran Bliss summed it pretty well: "make sure you can HEAR the drum above the melody otherwise it is pointless".
If it's played really well and tastefully as an accompaniment to the melody the very best it can aspire to be is pointless (though some still find it irritating). But when played over the melody it does serve a purpose ... that of entertaining people who are not interested (for what ever reason) in listening to the tunes.
I too had to think a while and play a little "air bodhrán" to be able to answer..
I play with very slightly bent wrist, with a tendency to straighten it when playing fast. That said, just look at Colm Murphy and his way of holding the stick, or Mr Hayes peculiar top end style and you´ll realise that 'anything goes'
re. annoying players i have had my share of those as well.. i must say that newbie fiddle players, constantly slightly out of tune and rhythm swaying like a rubber metronome is no fun at all either.
My favorite annoyance must be spoon "players" who go at it mechanically whether it's a slow air or a polka :-p
Also i have a very low tolerance level for people who bring non-bodhrán drums to sessions, the worst i have experienced was Djembe drum (he was politely told to vamoose and take the noisy effer with him though)
I'm learning that a drum doesn't fit in everything. But i especially like them in Mixolydian tunes. I wouldn't like them at all in the laid back tunes.
because, Mixolydian tunes have a different feel(spirit) than other tunes. Just like Minor tunes have a different feel than Major tunes(i don't know the mode names for major and minor). But i do know that all of the Mixolydian tunes i know, i would prefer to have drums, whereas just about all the major and minor tunes, i can't seem to hear drums with them. It's not about tuning, it's about feel.
I think there is an understandable tendency among those who haven't been listening to this music for decades to hear a scale with a major 3rd and a minor 7th as being exotic. To be really comfortable with the music, you have to get over this.
"...To be really comfortable with the music, you have to get over this." There's nothing to get over. I actually enjoy it more because it is less common. I like the "exotic" feeling. It's fresh and new. Mind-opening. I'm already comfortable.
And it's not that i would prefer a bodhran while *listening. I would like one while playing though. It would be a lot more fun for me than playing solo, and if i'm any good, fun for the bodhranist as well.
@fiddlelearner- i meant either listening or playing. i never feel a lack of percussive accompaniment. although playing my B set all by myself in my kitchen, i often feel the lack of a slack-tuned fiddle
@llig leahcim
"But at least they are making an effort."
So is a bodhrán *player* as opposed to a bodhrán *owner*
Unfortunately it is the latter who give the instrument a bad name.
I have never heard Colm Murphy or Johnny McDonagh dominate or 'spoil' a tune..
oh ok, i get that pipewatcher. Most of the tunes i play i could care less. A lot of them i can't hear or feel any type of percussion. But some i would very much like percussion in. Now that i think about it, these are tunes that i've learned from recordings that used bodhrans. "Dark Haired Lass" Altan. "The Rolling Waves" The Chieftains. etc. I likely first heard them with bodhran, and am use to it being there.
I think there is an understandable tendency among those who have been listening to this music for decades to hear a scale with a major 3rd and a major 7th as being boring.
Many mixolydian tunes are tunes from the piping tradition, and for that reason the intervals are often a little more jumpy and percussive than tunes in the major and minor modes. Search out more recordings of old-style traditional Irish piping and hopefully you'll start hearing pipes and not drums in your head when you're listening to mixolydian tunes.
fiddlelearner, I didn't choose the term "exotic" lightly:
"of foreign origin or character; not native; introduced from abroad, but not fully naturalised or acclimatised"
It's good that you are enjoying the exotic. It's good that you feel it fresh and new. And one can be comfortable with the exotic. But for your playing to be "naturalised" you have to get over the feeling of it being exotic. The music has to acclimatise itself to you and you to it. You have to hear it as something familiar, as part of you.
Also, the point Mr Gill is making is that mixolydian tunes are not in the least bit exotic. They come from the piping tradition, which is to say, from the heart of the traditional Irish musical culture, not from its fringe.
I love the Pipes. They are amazing. I heard a version of "Sunny Banks" on youtube, and it was played on the Pipes.(still learning how to spell that "U" word) "Dogs Among The Bushes" is played on the Pipes on "The Best of The Chieftains" album, and it's one of my favorite tunes. I like the drone, how the musics flows, so so smoothly. There tone is so thick and rich with harmony. There are many instruments i like listening to more...
*cross post*... I plan on learning more tunes from Pipe recordings, especially after i learned that the Pipes are why the "Donegal" fiddle tradition is so distinct. Someone commented on how when i play, i bow every note, instead of putting more notes to one bow. They commented that i should learn tunes from Pipe recordings. After doing a bit of research, i learned why the Pipes were so important. I am now dedicated to collecting Pipe recordings so i can learn the ways.
Thanks pipewatcher. May i say, i am impressed. I discovered that video you posted months ago. Didn't know it was you though. Thanks for the new resource. I've worn myself out looking for tunes on "youtube" and "comhaltas". Now i can look for Piped versions of all my favorite tunes You rock.
The Kerry style of playing with a bent wrist. Is that something like the Longford style of Shaky Egg.playing ?
Now if you to put a snare on it and learn the French finger style I'm sure you'd be welcome in 'nearly' every session in the country. http://youtu.be/LHrqf-EJRiE
Me and my best chum learned to play the fiddle and pipes respectively together, so my fiddle playing owes much to the pipes. But it's a mistake to think that that should be all staccato. Much of piping is, but there are also smoother styles.
@fiddlelearner, someone here once gave an honest reason why Bodhran players are picked on so much.
They said (and it's very true) "A drum is the easiest instrument to play bad, and the hardest instrument to play good."
After 48 years of playing drums, I got to say that is the truth and nothing but the truth.
I play mostly Kerry style and keep my wrist pretty straight.
"Has anyone EVER advised someone learning the pipes/fiddle/flute to play......quietly?"
a) I've always advised my students, on any instrument, to learn to play across the full dynamic range of the instrument, at top volume and as quietly as possible, and to do the same things at both ends of the range as well as at any point in between. So I've taught people to play the banjo, guitar, mandolin, and harmonica.... quietly. And, come to think of it, I've even taught people to play the bodhran quietly.
b) An instrument that is mostly known for playing too loudly and too much deserves extra attention to the "quiet" end of its dynamic range. So the guitar and the bodhran have to learn to be effective with extreme restraint.
c) music is about listening. If you play too loud, you can't listen.
Thom M, sorry but i don't agree with that. I don't believe it. Have you heard how bad the fiddle can sound? Going through a year of that thing crying, wailing, shrieking, moaning? See, an instrument with many tonal changes have the potential to sound a lot worse than instruments that don't. Ex. You can't change the tone of a piano(unless you touch the strings). No matter how good or bad you are, a C note will sound the same no matter who plays it. I can't say the same for the stringed instruments and pipes. Drums are matter of fact the easiest instrument to learn, because you don't have to worry about melodie or harmonies, just rhythm.
Thom M, sorry but i don't agree with that. I don't believe it. Have you heard how bad the fiddle can sound? Going through a year of that thing crying, wailing, shrieking, moaning? See, an instrument with many tonal changes have the potential to sound a lot worse than instruments that don't. Ex. You can't change the tone of a piano(unless you touch the strings). No matter how good or bad you are, a C note will sound the same no matter who plays it. I can't say the same for the stringed instruments and pipes. Drums are matter of fact the easiest instrument to learn, because you don't have to worry about melody or harmonies, just rhythm.
""A drum is the easiest instrument to play bad, and the hardest instrument to play good."
The above is one of the strangest things I have ever read here.
How can anyone rationally arrive at that about ANY instrument?
And, I will opine, ESPECIALLY the bodhran, given its history of use, mis-use, and out right ab-use?
Jerone, the bodhran can, and does have a lot of tonal changes. That's one of the reasons you place your hand inside. It allows the player to tighten or loosen the skin and change the tone. Placement of the hand and where tipper is striking can also affect the tone.
This is one of the things that sets the bodhran apart from most other drums (Timpani is a notable exception) where there is a big importance for the musician to have a good ear for pitch. Mastering this part of the bodhran isn't easy, and even harder to get to play tastefully. When you open up this pandora's box it takes a bit of restraint and ability to know when, where, and how to use it, which takes knowing the tunes. This bit is what seperates decent bodhran players, and really good bodhran players.
I think the idea about 'easy to play bad, hard to play good' is about right for any musical instrument including percussion.
There's a saying among bands that any band is only as good as their drummer.
The old goatskin is very difficult to play well, easy to make a dreadful annoying artless amateur racket on. As evryone here will probably testify to!
About the bodhran player's *other* hand; In so many cases(BUT NOT ALL), the hands behind the drumheads are moving around furiously, for no valid reason reason at all, other than to make the whole business look impressive. (I happen to enjoy a well-played bodhran, btw.)
@ fiddlelearner
The reason I say that is because when you played the fiddle bad, you knew it and so did everyone who heard you.
With drums you can play them bad and not have a clue, and in fact think they sound good.
I'm not saying any instrument is easy to learn, if they where I would be playing a lot more of them
I think the Bodhran bashing here proves my point more then disproving it.
Way to many people will pick up a drum and figure out how to keep a beat (sometimes) and think they are a musician.
They play poorly and think they're the greatest.
In reality they can't even spell dynamics let alone know what it is and how to apply dynamics to their playing.
I remember Weejie. I just think that if we keep in mind that No *real instrument is really *easy(which i'm beginning to have doubts about), then the drums has to be the least hard(but still hard).
Yes, the bodhran does have some tonal changes(and i like the big ones that make water sounds) but does is have as many as a horn or pipe? Very little things can affect the timbre of an instrument, and i think the ones that have air blown into them are a bit more versatile. I know that snare drums and toms are tightened and loosed to change their tone. And i've seen several different things done with kicks. But i still feel that drums aren't as hard as the others. And a standard drum set isn't the only instrument that uses both hands and feet.
@ figglelearner
I agree drums are not the most difficult instrument to learn.
It's just that they are so easy to play bad and get away with it, many so called drummers don't put in the effort to learn to play them properly.
When I was taking lessons many, many, years ago, I really didn't think they where a hard instrument to learn. But right from day one I was learning to play them properly.
Now I have a friend who never played an instrument and bought a drum set. Two days later he was playing in a band that ended up being a local favorite. He admitted he was a bad drummer, but the bands fans loved him. I couldn't listen to him. After playing for a few years he decided to take lessons and learn the proper way to play. Because of all the bad playing habits he picked up, he soon stopped taking lessons because he said it was to hard to learn the proper way.
That's why I say they are easy to play bad, but hard to play good.
I just wanted to clear that up a little more.
I don't want anyone to get the impression that I think drums are the hardest instrument to learn how to play.
"Problem is, most melody players are so caught up in what they are doing, they can't listen, to the others at a session. Hence the need at times for a drummer to establish timing, but obviously the bad listeners must be able to hear the drum......"
If they're not listening to each other, why do you suppose they'd listen to to the drum? No, that is not a situation that calls for a louder drummer, the only thing to do then is to pack up and leave.
But I don't think I've ever come across that particular situation - what I've seen a lot of is drummers who can't find the beat, so they assume they have to play louder to establish whatever beat they think is going on.
Chaos and muddle follow inevitably, and a wretched time is had by all.
with the risk of inviting loads of jokes, i have played bent wrist style for twenty years. As a result, I have completely F****d up my wrist and have been told (medically) that I should not play for long time.
If they're not listening to each other, why do you suppose they'd listen to to the drum? No, that is not a situation that calls for a louder drummer, the only thing to do then is to pack up and leave.
But I don't think I've ever come across that particular situation - what I've seen a lot of is drummers who can't find the beat, so they assume they have to play louder to establish whatever beat they think is going on.
Chaos and muddle follow inevitably, and a wretched time is had by all.
# Posted on June 28th 2011 by Jon Kiparsky
Must be awful living in the US of A.
In Ireland now.........well the bodhran is the main man.
Here's a solution! Ever bodhranist and guitarist could learn a *second instrument! That way, if more than one bodhranist, or guitarist showed up, they could all agree to let *one bodhranist, and *one guitarist play, and every other could play something else! There problem solved ^^
All this talk about drummers confuses me. Surely Bodhran Players should be known as 'Early Irish Drummers' because they are playing an early Irish drum. That would stop me confusing them with two handed drummers such as Buddy Rich etc..
When playing a bodhran neither the hand nor the wrist should move. Any apparent movement of the hand in fact comes from the rotating action of the radius and ulna. If the wrist is bent then the hand acts as a load on the muscles and ligaments, especially in the wrist. In some people this can cause damage. However if the wrist is kept straight, with the thumb on top and along the same axis as the rest of the arm, the the twisting of the radius and ulna transfers the motion directly to the tipper without strain on the wrist.
The better bodhran players play with two hands
I have yet to meet a Bodhran player who can do a hand to hand paradiddle or who even knows what a paradiddle is.
"I have yet to meet a Bodhran player who can do a hand to hand paradiddle or who even knows what a paradiddle is."
The way I do a paradiddle on the Bodhran is down-up-down-down, up-down-up-up, etc. That would be a single paradiddle similar to what you would do on a snare drum which is l-r-ll, r-l-rr
"But I don't think I've ever come across that particular situation - what I've seen a lot of is drummers who can't find the beat, so they assume they have to play louder to establish whatever beat they think is going on.
Chaos and muddle follow inevitably, and a wretched time is had by all."
Perhaps the problem, which I believe I have observed more than once, lies partly with drummers who think they have to be a major part of the over-all "sound". They feel an unbalanced need to be heard is my guess. Self-importance, maybe, or validation for what they do.
They have to somehow be dominant. Otherwise they would be reduced musically into mere backers, and nothing more than a subtle presence threading through the whole, rather like a heartbeat.
That does not seem to be nearly enough for some drummers egos or insecurities.
It could be worse, though - you could be in Ireland, where the bodhran is the "main man".
@Piece- I remember in high school when i sung in choir. How i didn't like singing tenor because we didn't often get the lead in the music we were doing. One day i realized that even though we rarely got the lead, we still made a big contribution to the overall sound. Knowing that i was a little color in a big picture was actually comforting. I learned how to follow, and put in work even when the attention didn't go to me. One of the greater, more useful lessons i've learned. Now i can encourage singers in the choir i direct. Because all parts are important(accept for percussion in ITM because it's not needed).
It is a matter of 'health', meaning one way isn't wrong necessarily but is unhealthy, and that is the bent wrist. It makes common sense if you think of all the 'wiring' in your arm. Your doing a lot of moving when whackin' away, and if the wrist is bent then you have all those tendons and the tubing they move in crimped, under tension. On can feel that tension. The same is true for the fiddle. You do not want that tension. You do not want that 'unnatural' crimp in the wrist and consequently with all that wiring, including the blood vessels and the whole structure.
The same is true for ANY instrument, not just the bodhran. Some well known bodhranistas have had the usual drummer problems, meaning RSI, Repetitive Strain Injury. If you want to reduce that possibility then find the most 'natural' condition for your arm, wrist and hand. HOW? Like with other instruments, shake your your hands and then just let your arms and hands find their most comfortable, 'natural' state, and it IS NOT BENT!!!
That doesn't mean you can't play well with a bent wrist, but it is without any doubt not 'natural' and consequently not as healthy as a straight wrist, or 'gently' curved... You can feel it too, that difference in tension, and consequently WEAR. Try both ways free hand, and alternate with both wrists, elbows at side, arms bent forward, rotate with a straight wrist, then with a bent one, and back and forth. There is are big differences.
But, you make your choices and you take your risks. Either way can lead to RSI problems, but the bent wrist can get you that pain and discomfort quicker...
"just think of the pearls you can offer when you become Fiddle Player."
I don't think the two handles are mutually exclusive. Good players are always learning. Judging by the clips he's posted, I'd say Jerone's pretty well on his way in learning.
That attitude of yours might explain the dire situation of your own playing, in that clip you posted a while back. (Or can you actually get through a whole tune without losing the beat, on a good day?)
Playing percussion for some 40 odd years now. What a lot of folks who don't truly know the art and who think anyone and their dog can play a drum forget is that we are there to accompany the melody. We are there to enhance, not to bury the music. Reading that four bodhran players were at one session all playing at the same time blows me away. It must have sounded like a cattle stampede. It's true, there are a ton of folks who purchase the Pakistani drum for $50 and hit the session circuit, ready to rock and roll. Unfortunately, it really impacts the guys like me who have worked their butts off to learn this art form. But then again we've all heard really bad pipers, string players etc., who give the art form a bad name as well.
"But then again we've all heard really bad pipers, string players etc., who give the art form a bad name as well."
No, can't say I've heard anything like that. I've heard bad musicians, of course, but they're mostly giving themselves the bad name. The drum, however - the more I hear, the less I find that it has any place in this music at all.
I'm convinced that in a session setting, the only person who really likes the bodhran is the bodhran player himself or herself. This is not the case with any proper instrument - I always like to hear a good flute player or piper, but even a "good" bodhran player is just a nuisance and an aggravation.
I would suggest that anyone who wants to understand why the bodhran is so roundly despised should try taking a few years off from playing it, and play a real instrument in a session. I think it won't be long before you too start dreading the ominous round bag of doom.
Live longer and happier by taking things easy, not pushed - showing consideration through technique for yourself, other musicians and music in general...
That attitude of yours might explain the dire situation of your own playing, in that clip you posted a while back. (Or can you actually get through a whole tune without losing the beat, on a good day?)
# Posted on July 1st 2011 by Jon Kiparsky
Lived with jealousy all my life, Jon.
Put it this way, imagine a "performance" at Yankee stadium next week, Matt Molloy, Liam Og, Tommy Peoples, a few others.
They see me and shout "hey bliss, we need a bodhran player, any chance?".
Not a problem to me, because I am a master, albeit on a humble bodhran.
If you know ANYTHING about music, watch that track again from the 2 minute mark when I start to take it semi seriously.
you MIGHT hear someone as good, you will NOT hear anyone better.
albeit on a humble bodhran.
I gave up bouzouki because I couldn't speak the language!!!!
I would suggest that anyone who wants to understand why the bodhran is so roundly despised should try taking a few years off from playing it, and play a real instrument in a session. I think it won't be long before you too start dreading the ominous round bag of doom.
# Posted on July 1st 2011 by Jon Kiparsky
Played harmonica for ten years at sessions (I know) and also mandolin for 5 years (sometimes bouzouki or tenor banjo) and then I saw the light.
Nowadays the like of Matt Molloy would say to me "I hope you haven't got that #####ng mandolin with you?"
But what would he know. he isn't even from New England.
There's is one very good Bodhranist at our session. She only plays tunes that she knows though. I like how it sounds.
# Posted on July 2nd 2011 by fiddlelearner
In my short 45 year career playing music I can safely say I have never, ever met a fiddle player, piper, flute player, sax, trombone or trumpet player who played tunes they "did not know".
Probably, but this is a guess, because they.....did not know them.
How infantile are some people? Bad bodhran players are....bad.
WOW, did you REALLY just say that we WILL NOT hear ANYONE better than YOU? It doesn't matter how famous you are(or were), there is someone better than you SOMEWHERE. It'd be different if someone bragged on you, but when you brag like this on yourself, that's just trashy. Let some other people brag on you. If you were as good as you said you were, you wouldn't have to say a thing, cause you wouldn't need to prove anything to anyone. I have no more words for this.
But that's natural, you have so many people to be jealous of, Bliss. Just about anyone who's played the bodhran, you can reasonably envy their skills. Takes a big man to admit it, though.
"Put it this way, imagine a "performance" at Yankee stadium next week, Matt Molloy, Liam Og, Tommy Peoples, a few others.
They see me and shout "hey bliss, we need a bodhran player, any chance?".
Not a problem to me, because I am a master, albeit on a humble bodhran."
And then you wake up and change the sheets and go back to learning what a beat is. You'll get there, trust me. Some people, it just takes a bit longer, but you'll be a decent player one day. Master might be a bit much to hope for, though. You're old, you don't have that much time.
"If you know ANYTHING about music, watch that track again from the 2 minute mark when I start to take it semi seriously."
I'd rather not watch it again, thanks. I watched it once, and didn't believe what I'd seen, so I watched it again, and that's enough for anyone.
As I recall, you never actually kept up with the tune for more than maybe fifteen or twenty seconds at a time before you stopped to find your place.
"you MIGHT hear someone as good, you will NOT hear anyone better."
You might be right there. You don't have a lot of competition out here. Mostly we play music, not toys so much.
"Nowadays the like of Matt Molloy would say to me "I hope you haven't got that #####ng mandolin with you?""
So because Matt Molloy thinks you're a crap mandolin player, that means... what? I'll assume it means you're a crap mandolin player, Molloy's word is good enough for me. And besides, without a sense of rhythm, mandolin's going to sound pretty bad.
Ya know, the majority of bodhran players I have met have really good rhythm, and understand dynamics. I know at least 4 that I consider to be really good, and a few others who at least keep a beat and a low profile to be tasteful in session. Not to mention, unlike BB was acting earlier, they are all generally humble and tactful.
I've had maybe one, maybe two, sessions where there were enough bodhran players without a clue that it bothered me. It is much more likely that something else (or myself) will ruin the craic for me.
Guess I'm just lucky to not have the worry so many others have.
WOW, did you REALLY just say that we WILL NOT hear ANYONE better than YOU? It doesn't matter how famous you are(or were), there is someone better than you SOMEWHERE. It'd be different if someone bragged on you, but when you brag like this on yourself, that's just trashy. Let some other people brag on you. If you were as good as you said you were, you wouldn't have to say a thing, cause you wouldn't need to prove anything to anyone. I have no more words for this.
# Posted on July 2nd 2011 by fiddlelearner
If Mr Nadal comes on TV and says "hey, I might struggle against Fiddle Learner on the clay in Paris" we would all condemn him for being condescending.
Always tell the truth. Some have it, some haven't.
oh, and bodhran bliss, it is true that percussion is not needed. Percussion is usually used to rile people up and make them dance right? Well, even my bad fiddle playing has gotten people up dancing, from little kids, to teenagers, to old men, without the help of a drummer. So why would i want a drummer? Because i like how it sounds, and it would add more to the music. So even though it's not necessary, i still appreciate it.
Peter, the son, he is a better judge. he just reckons I am brilliant, which is about right."
Very cool, Bliss.
I'll mention you when I am in the Shaskeen, it's just down the road from me. Some friends of mine play there now and again. And Peter is really a first-rate musician, a fave of mine.
"I would suggest that anyone who wants to understand why the bodhran is so roundly despised should try taking a few years off from playing it, and play a real instrument in a session. I think it won't be long before you too start dreading the ominous round bag of doom."
I got to say I love the attitude of you so called real musicians.
As someone who's played percussion instruments for 48 years I still chuckle at people who think drums aren't real instruments.
All it really shows is a huge lack of understanding.
Unfortunately 98% of people with bodhrans want to join in but can't be bothered or haven't got the time or patience to learn anything else, which is a pity for the 2% who know the tunes and can play...........
"As someone who's played percussion instruments for 48 years I still chuckle at people who think drums aren't real instruments."
As someone who has been playing musical instruments for about 25 years and the bodhran for about 20, I still chuckle at the idea that playing the bodhran is anything like playing an instrument.
But again, if you turn up at a session with a non-bodhran musical instrument and play with instead of at the other people for a little while, you too will soon understand why everyone else there wishes the bodhran player would find some other place to do their thing. While you're playing the bodhran, it feels like you're playing music. When you're not playing it, it sounds like an irrelevant thumpy noise that sometimes coincides rhythmically with the music. Sort of like a pile driver at the construction site down the street, only it's in the room with you. If you're not willing to try the experiment, just believe me: we're sometimes too polite to say so, but we do wish you'd go away and play with a pub band, where you belong.
The bodhran does not help to "hold the session together", it does not "support the rhythm", it does not "keep the beat". If the session does not hold itself together, if its rhythm needs support, if it has trouble keeping the beat, there is at least one musician who is screwing things up, and the bodhran is only going to make things worse. So really, the bodhran is irrelevant at best in a session. It cannot add anything, it can only subtract.
Well, like i mentioned earlier, i like some of them, especially the big ones that make water sounds. But different people have different tastes. I remember at school, either during class, or in lunch, when we got bored, someone would take out a pencil and start making beats on the desk(lunchtable). Now sometimes it was fun, people would come over and rap and rhyme and be all silly. But it also annoyed a BUNCH of people sometimes. The teachers and administrators weren't the only ones that would complain.
Peter, the son, he is a better judge. he just reckons I am brilliant, which is about right."
Very cool, Bliss.
I'll mention you when I am in the Shaskeen, it's just down the road from me. Some friends of mine play there now and again. And Peter is really a first-rate musician, a fave of mine.
I hope I get to jam with him someday.
# Posted on July 3rd 2011 by Piece
I believe his pub is in Manchester, New Hampshire.? He would know Seamus Heneghan from Killeen, box player, as I have only played twice in Peter's company, along with Seamus.
@Jon Kiparsky
I have absolutely no doubt that you know much more then I about sessions and Irish music, I would never attempt to argue the importance of the Bodhran at sessions with you.
I started learning the Bodhran because of my love and passion for percussion instruments. Along the way I fell in love with ITM.
But when I listen to people like Christy Moore or Donnchadh Gough, or Johnny 'Ringo' McDonagh play the Bodhran I find it hard to believe it doesn't belong in ITM.
Just back from the trenches of Newcastleton and I can say that I definitely stand with Jon on this matter and also with whoever above said that the 98% of people who play the bodhran because it seemed like an easy "in" to sessions give the 2% who know the tunes and play well and tactfully a bad name.
When a melody player makes an arse of himself at a session, you might think, "I wish that guy would shut up" but it only reflects badly on him and not on all fiddle/flute/box/pipes et al players. Most people's session experience dictates that the vast majority of people who walk into a session carrying those sorts of instruments will know what they are doing. They might not. I once afforded a random guy who came into the pub with a flute a friendly welcome and the benefit of the doubt, and he proceeded to play chromatic scales over the tunes, but since most people before (and since) with flutes have a clue, they are still innocent until proven guilty.
On the other hand,most people's experience of bodhrans in sessions dictates that most of them will sound like a sack of potatoes rolling down the stairs (not my metaphor -- I wish), they will be dubious of anyone who walks into a session carrying one. If the person has a clue and knows the tunes, then you'll be pleasantly surprised. Usually, though, you're not.
Just back from the trenches of Newcastleton and I can say that I definitely stand with Jon on this matter and also with whoever above said that the 98% of people who play the bodhran because it seemed like an easy "in" to sessions give the 2% who know the tunes and play well and tactfully a bad name.
When a melody player makes an arse of himself at a session, you might think, "I wish that guy would shut up" but it only reflects badly on him and not on all fiddle/flute/box/pipes et al players. Most people's session experience dictates that the vast majority of people who walk into a session carrying those sorts of instruments will know what they are doing. They might not. I once afforded a random guy who came into the pub with a flute a friendly welcome and the benefit of the doubt, and he proceeded to play chromatic scales over the tunes, but since most people before (and since) with flutes have a clue, they are still innocent until proven guilty.
On the other hand,most people's experience of bodhrans in sessions dictates that most of them will sound like a sack of potatoes rolling down the stairs (not my metaphor -- I wish), they will be dubious of anyone who walks into a session carrying one. If the person has a clue and knows the tunes, then you'll be pleasantly surprised. Usually, though, you're not.
# Posted on July 3rd 2011 by TheSilverSpear
Most people i know got pipes for pretentious reasons, brought them to sessions, and were.....awful.
Mind you having played with Liam Og, Spillane, Paddy Keenan, and taught Robbie Hannon, I realise that some people can play them.
An excess of judgement does not seem to be one of your many weaknesses. Judgement, in fact, seems to be an element singularly lacking in the composition of your personality.
I also believe straight or bent is up to the player. Find what works best for you.
As a humble player of the bodhran, I will say that I get tired of the ongoing denigration of the bodhran and it's place in a session. There are those of us who WORK at being a good bodhran players and a member of an ensemble, listening to the other members of the session, responding to what they are doing, and generally being sensitive to the dynamic of the group. It took me a year of daily practice before I ever attempted to play in a session. I asked the groups permission to sit in, afterward I made sure that I had broken none of the groups taboos or rules. I WORKED to prove myself an acceptable accompaniment player for the group. And my down time is spent listening to session tunes so that i know the music. I understand that this type of player is not the norm but there are those of us out there who take it seriously, and who work to be good at what we do. I have no problem slagging goat thumpers and other makers and purveyors of noise. But can we try to at least respect the bodhran players who seem to be sensitive enough not to play on slow airs or play with the skin dampened by the hand. Come on guys, some of us are trying!
All of y'all are trying. My patience, that's what you're trying.
"But can we try to at least respect the bodhran players who seem to be sensitive enough not to... play with the skin dampened by the hand"
You mean you let the damned thing ring like a bell when you're playing it? Please, please, please stay at Bodhran Bliss' real Oirish Sessions (tm) and away from anything I'm ever at.
@Jon Kiparsky
I have absolutely no doubt that you know much more then I about sessions and Irish music, I would never attempt to argue the importance of the Bodhran at sessions with you.
I started learning the Bodhran because of my love and passion for percussion instruments. Along the way I fell in love with ITM.
But when I listen to people like Christy Moore or Donnchadh Gough, or Johnny 'Ringo' McDonagh play the Bodhran I find it hard to believe it doesn't belong in ITM.
# Posted on July 3rd 2011 by Thom M
Excellent post but always remember that some people have no wish to spread the music because they, and they alone, are the keepers of the sacred flame.
The Irish Language used to be a bit like that in the North of Ireland as well, those who could speak it preferred looking down their noses at those who were learning the language.
You will find the same attitude in irish music, but rarely with Irish people.
Okay, apparently I miswrote. The end of my post should have read "do not play on slow airs and DO dampen the skin SO THAT THEY DON'T RING LIKE A BELL."
And please be assured Jon that I will do everything in my power to refrain from playing bodhran at any session at which you are playing. It's a shame. I believe you are probably an excellent musician. Regretfully you seem to have missed the spirit of joy, community, and "Craic" that many of us find in Irish music and adopted instead an elitist attitude that seems completely antithetical to the culture.
>>And please be assured Jon that I will do everything in my power to refrain from playing bodhran at any session at which you are playing
Thanks for that. Do bring your tin whistle or your box or whatever it is you like to play, or sing a song, or any other thing. Just leave the damned drum at home and I'll be happy as a pope in a haberdasher's.
What a bizarre thread! On the one hand, Jon K says “drums are not part of the ITM idiom”. You don’t have to like them, Jon. I don’t especially like the sound of the mandolin, but I wouldn’t dare be so arrogant as to say something like ‘even a "good" bodhran player is just a nuisance and an aggravation’ about the mandolin. You’re welcome to think what you like. You happen to be wrong, but you’re right about other things, though. Somebody who buys a $50 drum and hits a session is not a musician and is, frankly, a pain in the butt. That is very different from a musician who also plays the bodhran and brings both to a session and plays a bit of both. I’m very much of the opinion that you shouldn’t be allowed loose on the streets with a bodhran unless you can play melody on something, or be able to sing, or in some way demonstrate that you can conceptualise “music” in the ITM idiom.
If you don’t know, as a bodhran player, that to have two bashing away at once ain’t pretty, then you’re a poor sort of musician (or percussionist). However, I have experience of 8 fiddlers at the same session all playing at once – not so much Fiddlers Bid as Fiddlers Bad.
You simply cannot argue that bodhran is not idiomatic in ITM. That’s ridiculous. However, it’s no more ridiculous than describing the bodhran as “the main man” in Ireland.
Bliss seems to be indulging in a large slice of “who can piddle the highest”. Either that, or he’s the greatest exponent of irony in the history of the world. I have no wish to join the piddling contest, but I’m an experienced bodhran player (also singer, tin whistle and flute player) and I’ve met plenty of bad musicians and bad percussionists, and played with some very good ones. The problem lies with the player, not the instrument. A lack of intellectual rigour, or the mistaken belief that enthusiasm is a substitute for practice, is always the problem with the musician.
The drum is not “the heartbeat of the session” – ludicrous nonsense. Just some marketing statement to sell cheap drums to tourists in Ireland. The “heartbeat of the session” players are pretty easy to spot, and they make my heart sink when they appear (and I am a bodhran player), but everything tedious and horrible about them is a problem with the person. The difference is that you can’t buy $50 uilleann pipes. If you could, you know there’d be idiots bringing them to sessions with no practice, musicianship, craft, or anything else. The worst session spoiler I ever knew played the accordion.
If I might make a comparison with singing, most people would admit that Christy Moore has spawned a generation of imitators – the “oi wud never go witcha no matter how oi wanted to” mob. Now when some Christy wannabe comes to a session or singaround and breaks out City of Chicago or (aaargh) Ride On I don’t think “Oh that bloomin Christy Moore! What does he think he’s doing letting these eejits sing like him”? The problem lies with the lack of rigour on the part of the singer, and it wouldn’t be fair to blame Christy. A bad bodhran player, assuming they only had the necessary musical ability to play, say, flute badly would spoil a session just as much as a bad bodhran player – only in a different way.
Lastly, speaking as someone who takes music, rhythm, and singing very seriously, the bodhran players who play louder in order to pick up the beat when they lose it should, for a first offence, be skinned alive and rubbed with lemons. This should discourage a second offence
You're making a lot of sense there emde, except for:
Drink is traditional in an Irish session, so are drunks who sing like Christy Moor. There are many things that traditionally go with Irish diddley sessions, but their traditionality (if there's such a word) should in no way allow them a free passport to participate.
And you are wrong in saying that somebody is a pain if they buy who a $50 drum and hits a session. They are very easily dealt with ... you just politely ask them to stop. The real pains are the ones who've spent years "studying" the bodrhan. It's much much harder to ask them to stop playing. They get all afronted and stuff.
I have little time for the argument that "other things suck as well, therefore the bodhran is okay."
Okay, if you don't like songs in sessions, you'll find a lot of takers there. I like a song now and then. The important thing there is to make sure you're part of the session, not simply using the session as your audience. But there are many people who play tunes at our sessions who also can sing a song, and I like to hear them do that.
You might not agree, or you might not like some songs. Fine. Honestly, "Roid On" has never really struck me as much of a song, but whatever. Totally irrelevant to the simple fact that, at a session, a bodhran is at best not very much in the way of the tunes, and more often in the way of the tunes, and it never improves the tunes.
In the same vein, there will be lousy box players, awful flute players, terrible fiddlers, and crap pipers. I've heard examples of all of the above, and that is also totally irrelevant.
Those players can and usually do learn, get better, and contribute to the sessions. The bodhran players, no matter how much they learn, never add anything to the tunes. They might contribute to the session by virtue of their personality, and that's well appreciated when it happens, but their laborious thumping does nothing for the tunes.
It's not a matter of "not liking the bodhran". I like the bodhran just fine - in a pub band, or playing with a single other musician. I used to sit in with a soul band, playing bodhran and tambourine, it was great fun.
In a session, there's no room for it, and it's only a bother.
. However, it’s no more ridiculous than describing the bodhran as “the main man” in Ireland.
# Posted on July 5th 2011 by emmdee
I already know it is ridiculous, I was just joining in with Jon. But at least i know it is ridiculous.
And my contribution is not irony, I call it satire, which may have died when they gave the peace prize to Henry Kissinger.
As for Jon being arrogant, never, he is just a certain type of American Irish musician who swallowed the whole nonsense about rules and the purity of the tradition, and that type are not arrogant, just always right.
As for Christy, not a great singer or musician but to see him live in his heyday....pure charisma.
All I ever argue is a simple point. Bad fiddle player is.....bad. Bad bodhran player is.....bad. Bad piper is.....bad.
Any bad player can ruin a session. npot just a bodhran.
I admit it is easier to get a bodhran to join in because it LOOKS easy. Obviously it is not.
Those people would be better getting a bouzouki or something and noodling in the background.........
Fair comment, Llig. Things I've seen in ITM/Scottish music sessions that have no idiomatic right to be there IMO include
Trombone
Bass and Alto Sax
Djembe
Hungarian pipes
Washboard
Cajon
Bodhran (and probably bones) are part of the tradition. Even if you don't like that, there ain't much you can do. If we're in a session together and you ask an obviously incompetent bodhran player to shut the hell up, you'll get no complaints fae me. But the same'd have to apply to a rotten fiddler...
You missed the point: yes, bodhran (and probably bones) are part of the tradition. But so what, it doesn't mean I have to tolerate them.
If I politely asked a really dreadful fiddle player to stop, I may well get no complaints from you. But what would you say if I politely asked you to stop?
In a session, there's no room for it, and it's only a bother.
# Posted on July 5th 2011 by Jon Kiparsky
Well said sir, and you are entitled to your opinion.
But please allow Sean O'Riada, Tommy Peoples, Matt Molloy, Paddy Keenan, Liam Og O'Flynn, Paddy Moloney, Sean Keane, Davy spillane, Michael McGoldrick, Eileen Ivers, Dermie Diamond, Paddy glackin, Frankie Gavin, me, and many, many others to politely disagree. I have enjoyed "sessions" with them all (bar Sean O'Riada) and they have enjoyed sessions with me.
You're entitled to your opinion. It's wrong, but you're entitled to it. They're entitled to theirs, but I have no reason to suppose that your estimation of their opinion is an accurate one. You do have a dog in the fight, after all.
one thing about being a bad, but experienced musician, is most of us know when we're ruining something. I know when i'm not playing at the session as well as i was playing at home, and i know when to stop. If i'm screwing up a tune, i drop out. If i'm playing a terrible solo, i cut it short. I just need to learn what i'm not ready to play yet. I also need to learn that we're all playing together, not performing, so there should be no pressure.
I think I know you, and we used to play the odd session in Bell's together - 10 years or more ago, and I don't think you'd have the neck to ask me to stop, politely or otherwise. Your internet persona's not the same as being face to face in the pub. If you did, I'd probably tell you to **** off. There was a nasty undercurrent at Bell's in the late 90s/early 00s of certain people intimidating folks out of the session. You might have been part of that... I dunno. I certainly would not take kindly to anyone, whether a nonentity or a household name asking me to stop playing bodhran in a session. Since I'd give you no musical reason beyond prejudice at the instrument to do it, you'd get short shrift fae me. I think, internet bravado aside, that you and I both know the difference between a good person to have in a session and a bad one.
m.d.
Jon, don't be an ass. You simply can't say "No bodhrans". It's not even as if you're arguing against the thin end of the wedge. They are a part of the tradition. That's it.
I have no problem if some random punter turns up and starts spoiling - I'll even have a quiet word myself. I'm not some punter, though. I mean, obviously I'm not Bliss with his stellar array of admirers but I'm a proper considerate, respectful, serious minded multi-instrumentalist and singer who happens to accept the bodhran in the tradition and play it. You don't play it? Fine. You don't like it? Live with it. But don't even think about intimidating anyone, be it John Joe Kelly or John Joe Numskull out of a session because you'd be well and truly in the moral wrong.
You're in a serious minority, I'm afraid. Looks like just you and Llig, and I really doubt you'd have the bottle to speak up either. Maybe if you were with a bunch of friends...
I think Bliss has been at best graceless and, at worst, arrogant in some of his comments. For me to say "I'm a good player" isn't arrogant. For you to say "no bodhrans" isn't just arrogant - it's deluded.
"you're sitting on the wrong end of the bodhran to judge, aren't you?"
Your role ain't to judge any other player or any other instrument, BTW. I mean, who are you, when all's said and done? I know who I am and what I've "done", and I know what Bliss claims to have "done" even though I don't know who he is (I haven't watched his video clip yet, but I'm gonna), but who are you, what have you "done", and what makes you think you're a session judge? Are you just some erudite academic non player with internet access, or a really gifted amateur, or a stellar pro-musician who's taught and performed widely and influenced a generation of players?
Why am I even asking? It's not like I really care.
m.d.
I think Bliss has been at best graceless and, at worst, arrogant in some of his comments.
# Posted on July 5th 2011 by emmdee
In N.Ireland it is known as extracting the urine.
But joking aside, I HAVE played with all those I mentioned, no complaints. I can join the Chieftains in the morning, Kevin is a better singer I admit, but that is just on a humble bodhran.
Like I say - it's fine when someone else is asked to put up their instrument, but when it's even suggested that someone might "have a word" with you, you get a little shirty, don't you?
The point is not that I'm going to ask anyone to stop if they come in some night. I'm not. It's not my place to do that. There's a guy who gets paid to keep it sweet, and I'm not out to make life tricky for him. I'm just trying to let you and your goat-thwacking buddies know what's really going on when you're not there: we're having more fun and hoping you don't turn up.
Really, you might hear someone say something like "it's too bad there wasn't a fiddle tonight" or "It would have been nice to have a whistler", but I have never, even once, heard anyone say "it's a shame there wasn't a bodhran."
I'm from N Ireland as well, Bliss. North Antrim. Extract away! I suspected you were indulging in irony of the ironiest. Nobody could've said the things you said without tongue firmly in cheek.
Where's the link to the vid that Jon thinks u suck in? I'd like to make up my own mind.
Funny, Jon made some comments on the Ipads at sessions thread with which I wholeheartedly agree, yet we couldn't be more divergent over this. I think it'll boil down to "yes it is", "no it isn't", "yes it is", "no it isn't", "yes it is", "no it isn't" and we'll just have to let it go.
m.d.
Here's a radical idea. This whole thread began because someone had a question on bodhran technique. Why not let bodhran players answer the question? I know there's seems to be a lot of joy in bodhran bashing but we have gotten so far off topic here that it is absurd.
I would not begin to answer questions on mandolin, box, or pipes because I don't play those particular instruments. If the question is "should I bring my drum to a session," or "how many bodhran players does it take to screw in a lightbulb?" then I think it's open season. We asked for it. But when some poor, unsuspecting soul presumes to ask a question so that they can learn I think it is in the worst possible taste to descend in to the bodhran bashing that this particular thread has succumbed to.
I agree, wvbodhran. The correct way IMO is for the wrist to be in a relaxed neutral position - thus "straight" wrist would be my choice.
Emmdee can answer for himself, but as someone who has listened to him play bodhran (and flute, whistle, uilleann pipes) and sing, both in session and on stage. I would give his opinion due consideration.
Ah sure its the same few eejits spewing bile from their high horse, its a regular occurrence here, I guess they just need to put other folk down to make them selves feel good and Bodhrán players are a perennial favourite to pick on.
Great session last night, some lovely Bodhrán playing around town this year. The session today was blessed by a player who at one point put the drum down and proceeded to blast out a stunning set of tunes on the flute! Class .
Of course anyone with any breadth of experience knows full well that the drum and backers in general can be an essential addition to a session, certainly in loud boisterous sessions with rowdy crowds. So by slagging off the instrument in general they actually just demonstrate their ignorance and it reflects more on the slagger than the slagee....
Its funny , Id like to see these guys come to Clare and start bitching about the bodhran or bones! somehow I dont see it though! Its easy to do so safe behind a keyboard, easy to put people down, easy to bully and victimise when their are next to no repercussions. Its a shame some people get off on that kind of behaviour but thats life, dont feed them I suppose but at the same time its best not to let that kind of nonsense stand unchallenged because people might actually start to believe that what they say has any real basis . It doesnt.
They are entitled to their opinions and we are entitled to regard those opinions with disdain and thats what those opinions deserve.
Now I m not going to engage these ****** in conversation, just expressing my opinion . bye
Thank you for engaging in the conversation sir. And we can agree that the bodhran certainly does have its place in loud boisterous sessions with rowdy crowds. For as we know, rowdy crowds love the thing.
m.d., I hope you'll find that anyone who does know me will vouch for my personality here to be no different from my "meat space" personality, so maybe you don't know me.
There's a broader question here about how people behave in sessions. Most people in sessions consider themselves guests and repress feelings they have about their fellow guests because society works that way. I'm like that in most sessions, I'm no different from most people. So I often find myself in a session with bodhrans ... so at the very least, I know what I'm talking about.
But you said something earlier which made me think about this:
"I really doubt you'd have the bottle to speak. Maybe if you were with a bunch of friends..."
I think this really is what it's about. If I'm in he pub playing tunes with a bunch of friends, all of whom have a dislike for the bodhran and all of whom know that all of us have a dislike for the bodhran, then one of us, probably the person you are closest to, will ask you politely to stop. In fact, practically speaking, when you first come in and ask politely if you can play (which polite people always do, no matter what instrument) you will be politely given the reply, "No".
So am I going to be hit now with a cascade of people calling me a prejudiced, elitist and arrogant non-traditionalist? Probably.
But ask yourself this, would you rather play in a session with a load of people you hardly know and repress your dislikes for the sake of conforming to an irritating (but necessary) social grace? Or would you rather play with like minded friends?
In the USA we are told by a variety of laws and regulations not to engage in discrimination based on sex, race, religion, creed, national origin, and most recently sexual orientation. So far, no bodhran players have made the list for legal protection.
. I'm just trying to let you and your goat-thwacking buddies know what's really going on when you're not there: we're having more fun and hoping you don't turn up.
Really, you might hear someone say something like "it's too bad there wasn't a fiddle tonight" or "It would have been nice to have a whistler", but I have never, even once, heard anyone say "it's a shame there wasn't a bodhran."
# Posted on July 5th 2011 by Jon Kiparsky
You are even getting the jargon right now, "Goat thwacking" and all that.
Ye could be a full scale trendy yet. Bought a tankard yet have ye.
As for never having heard someone say "I wish there was a bodhran" well at least I know ye haven't been in a session with Molloy, Keenan, O'Flynn, or a few others I know.
Where's the link to the vid that Jon thinks u suck in? I'd like to make up my own mind.
# Posted on July 5th 2011 by emmdee
From North Antrim, I maybe even know ye. I do know Paul McAulay who plays in "The House of McDonnell" in Ballycastle, and injdeed I have played there myself, notably at my brothers funeral as he was living in Ballycastle.
A photo of me. The one on the bodhran. The other bloke is some flute player who lives in Westport. He owns a pub and has photos of himself on the walls with famous musicians like Van the ma, Mick Jagger and me.
The infamous Youtube link........hhhhmmmmmmm.
Need loads of excuses. a dodgy stick with a weight falling out of it, (which was actually ripping the drum i discovered later), sitting on the terraces at a football game, cramped, extracting the urine,...........playing the side which I NEVER do......showing off to the assembled crowd of adoring fans....looking for the banjo player....wondering if I should play the banjo, which I later did, .........terms and conditions were not good.
And then after two minutes I adjust my pose and begin to play ....just a bit.
well at a level acceptable to Molloy, O'Flynn and co, but not to one of the USA's finest.......bouzouki (sic) players.
“There's a broader question here about how people behave in sessions. Most people in sessions consider themselves guests and repress feelings they have about their fellow guests because society works that way. I'm like that in most sessions, I'm no different from most people. So I often find myself in a session with bodhrans ... so at the very least, I know what I'm talking about.”
Oh, poor you. Do you get headaches, since you spend so much of your time looking down your nose at people?
”If I'm in the pub playing tunes with a bunch of friends, all of whom have a dislike for the bodhran and all of whom know that all of us have a dislike for the bodhran, then one of us, probably the person you are closest to, will ask you politely to stop. In fact, practically speaking, when you first come in and ask politely if you can play (which polite people always do, no matter what instrument) you will be politely given the reply, "No".
So am I going to be hit now with a cascade of people calling me a prejudiced, elitist and arrogant non-traditionalist? Probably.”
You are by me, and rightly so. If you want to play in a little clique of hate-filled begrudgers, then you do that in the comfort of your home. If you’re regulars in a session that’s understood to be “open” rather than “gig by some blokes” then I’m afraid that normal session rules apply. That means no intimidation, counterbalanced, naturally, by the understanding that all participants must have some level of proficiency above “basic”. I don’t believe that sessions are the proper place to learn the rudiments of any instrument any more than I expect you do. I suspect we agree on a lot more than we would disagree on about session behaviour and standards. I certainly hope so.
”But ask yourself this, would you rather play in a session with a load of people you hardly know and repress your dislikes for the sake of conforming to an irritating (but necessary) social grace? Or would you rather play with like minded friends?”
Oh, the former every time. Because I’ve been around just long enough to know that there’s a big difference between being a good musician and a good human being. If it’s you and your “like minded friends” then stick to private kitchen ceilis with no bodhrans and feel free to indulge in any other prejudices you like whilst you’re doing it. No hornpipes, maybe? Or no tunes in Bminor? Or no women? Whatever… I’d rather spend an evening with ‘second rate musicians’ who understand the broader session dynamic and can have the crack than a few stuffy pillocks who, though they may be top-class players, invariably turn out to be no fun. Like I said in a previous post, you and I both know the difference between someone likely to improve a session with their presence, and someone who’s going to spoil it. The difference is that, for you, the second category includes every bodhran player. I find that baffling.
Hey, Jon. Way to back down there, fella. All the way from “bluster, bluster bluster” to “The point is not that I'm going to ask anyone to stop if they come in some night. I'm not. It's not my place to do that. There's a guy who gets paid to keep it sweet, and I'm not out to make life tricky for him.”
Do you know what a poltroon is?
“I'm just trying to let you and your goat-thwacking buddies know what's really going on when you're not there: we're having more fun and hoping you don't turn up.”
Are you, like, eight years old? Honestly, what a precious little child you must be. You’d be better off stopping home, too, cos I don’t reckon there’s an army of fans and admirers clamouring to session with you.
Wvbodhran makes a good point. Next time someone asks for tips to improve their embouchure, all of us bodhran players should spring out with comments on stick length, overuse of rim shots, and how flutes only get in the way of the drummers. No, wait. We shouldn’t do that. That would be offering irrelevant opinions that have nothing to do with the question that was asked.
I've seen bodhran players in certain pubs in Edinburgh on certain nights of the week, and they played all night in the session, and as far as I could tell, did not get told to stop playing. Just sayin'...
I've seen bodhran players in certain pubs in Edinburgh on certain nights of the week, and they played all night in the session, and as far as I could tell, did not get told to stop playing. Just sayin'...
# Posted on July 6th 2011 by TheSilverSpear
Including that little old dear of a woman?
By the way forgot to add in that post of mine ages ago about pipers, when I said I taught Robbie Hannon? I did indeed.
Audrey died a few months ago. Towards the end I doubt she could have remembered ten minutes later if she'd been told to stop. She was living in her own happy little world where everybody loved the bodhran and the earth was her ashtray.
I just kinda pretended I was playing in a thunderstorm.
Seriously? No, I don't physically eject bodhran players from the sessions I play at. That would be rude, almost as rude as sitting down and banging on a drum while people are trying to play music together. What's that got to do with anything?
The most amazing sight I've seen for wee while was in Newcastleton where this wee man with a red coat with large polka dots, floral boots and God know's what else and sporting a minute tufty beard was merrily thumping away on the back of a fiddle with a bodhran stick..
Somebody asked him for a loan of his fiddle(not me) in a drunken moment and found that it was well out of tune but couldn't be heard, in any case, as there was no rosin on the bow!
This was a perfect example of someone who should have been physically ejected although most of us did their best to ignore him.
My sources tell me the guy is a known character around the Scottish festival scene and has been for years. Mad as a box of frogs.
He wandered into the upstairs bit of the Grapes, dressed as John describes above, and holding a stuffed banana -- a soft toy -- against his head as if it were a telephone. Then he wandered out again.
You love to bully those who have the temerity to play a drum, but you back down pretty darn fast when challenged. "Not my place", indeed. You claim authority to judge musicianship, but you can't back it up. You just sit at your keyboard, talking childish rubbish and then backing down. You love dishing it out, but you can't take it. Computer life ain't real life. You probably love talking about bodhran players and any other musicians you don't like behind their backs, because you're a passive-aggressive waste of space. You wouldn't have the nerve to do anything other than fume if I showed up with my drum, flute, and whistles, not because to do otherwise would be 'rude', but because you haven't go the social grace to interact in siutations that make you uncomfortable. Even if you're a red-hot player, which I doubt, I expect you stick to the same small circle of friends and sessions because everyone else has you well worked out by now. An insular bore and a musical nonentity.
Like I said. If you want to play in a clique, stay out of pub sessions. They obviously ain't for you, since they'll let just anyone in. While you're at it, please accept my invitation to refrain from contributing anything to any thread on the subject of bodhrans. Since you reject them totally, you can't offer anything of value to the discussion. Therefore, any contribution you make is snide bullying. I don't wanna hear it, and no other bodhran player wants to hear it.
"Audrey died a few months ago. Towards the end I doubt she could have remembered ten minutes later if she'd been told to stop. She was living in her own happy little world where everybody loved the bodhran and the earth was her ashtray.
I just kinda pretended I was playing in a thunderstorm." Jack Campin
Thing about Audrey Jack is that she actually had a fairly good memory for faces, didn't see her a year or so before she died. Over the years that I've popped into Bells she would remind me of the last time I'd been in. Sometimes a couple of years apart. Another old edinburgh character gone off to a better place.
The important thing that I keep in mind is that it's the folk like Audrey, musical ability aside, that should remind us sessions in a place like edinburgh don't belong to the individual. I remember talking to an old fellow about the scene in edinburgh some years ago, at the Green Tree not long before it closed it's doors. His take was quite astute as it turns out;
"it's not the scene that changes in this town son, only the people".
Yes, I was thinking of Audrey when I wrote that, but hazily remember seeing one or two other bodhran players on the odd occasion there, playing happily away, not getting told to stop.
"Yes, I was thinking of Audrey when I wrote that, but hazily remember seeing one or two other bodhran players on the odd occasion there, playing happily away, not getting told to stop." TheSilverSpear
Yes, there are a few others as well. I met a fellow a few weeks ago, plays the drum and lives away now, we've pals in common. He was on the scene there in the late 80's early 90's and still good pals with many who're still knocking around that scene today. Somehow I couldn't see him taking a fikr off that well, lol. But then as emmdee has pointed out it's unlikely that it would be tendered in the first place.
Say what you like online, sticks and stones and all that, in the boozer it's a very different dynamic ;~)
Obviously you haven't been paying attention. I've played the bodhran since about 1992. It's made me as much money as any instrument I play, between teaching and gigs.
I think they're fine in a pub band, or when playing with one, maybe two other people. But in a session, in a bar, when you have half a dozen people playing actual instruments, there's no room for the bodhran.
As for the rest of your twaddle:
"You claim authority to judge musicianship, but you can't back it up."
I do? When? I do say that bongo bliss's little video shows a distinct lack of excellence, true, but that hardly takes a lot of seeing. The fact that he can't keep up with himself for thirty seconds at a time gives it away.
"You love to bully those who have the temerity to play a drum, but you back down pretty darn fast when challenged."
I do? I'm willing to tell you the truth about your instrument, and I'll say it again: I have never yet found anyone who actually wants to hear it in a session.
"You know what this session needs? A bodhran." I've never heard anyone say anything like that. Why? Because what this session doesn't need is a bodhran - any more than it needs a tradtional Irish cowbell or a traditional Irish horn section.
I'll tolerate it, like I'll tolerate someone yapping on their cell phone in a coffee shop when I'm trying to read a book or have a conversation, because it's easiest all around to let some things go. That doesn't mean it's not a damned nuisance to have someone yapping away on their chatterbox three feet from you, and it doesn't make the bodhran a good thing, it's just a matter of live and let live.
But if you want to know the truth, notice that the nicest thing any non-bodhran player has said about the drum in this thread has been "some drummers don't get told to stop". Of course they don't. And some of the drummers are even welcome - for their personalities, for who they are. But if you take the drum itself - nobody wants to hear the thing. They tolerate it.
"You love dishing it out, but you can't take it."
Now you're just spouting cliches because you can't think of anything sensible to say. What on earth is that supposed to mean in this conversation?
I suppose you could try making fun of box players and see if I come off like a whiny little bitch about it the way the drummers do, but I think you'd find that I have more jokes about the box than you do.
"You probably love talking about bodhran players and any other musicians you don't like behind their backs, because you're a passive-aggressive waste of space"
I don't talk about musicians I don't like, because I don't know any musicians I don't like. Hell, I don't even know any bodhran players I don't like. I just don't like the playing of the bodhran. It's a wretched misery, it's a cry for help, it's a sickness and an affliction, but the people who play the thing are often perfectly nice people - another reason I don't go after them with a can of mace and a tire iron when they come in the door, as you seem to think I ought to do.
"You wouldn't have the nerve to do anything other than fume if I showed up with my drum, flute, and whistles, not because to do otherwise would be 'rude', but because you haven't go the social grace to interact in siutations that make you uncomfortable."
If you turned up with instruments, you'd be more than welcome. If you turned up with the drum, you'd be welcome. The drum, we put up with, because, as you say:
"Computer life ain't real life"
And it's better to just get along with the people around you than to get into an argument with someone and waste half an hour yelling and finally get started playing in a bad humor and have a lousy time. I'm pretty good at enjoying myself. Sometimes I have to stop playing and give the drummer a hint about the beat, and I can even do that while smiling. None of that changes the simple fact, which I've said often enough that I think even Bliss has got it by now: nobody actually wants to hear the bodhran. Nobody wakes up in the morning saying "gosh, I hope there's a couple of tossers with their salad bowls of doom at the session tonight".
Are you starting to get it? I know, you're a drummer, you're a little slow, but I'm reasonably patient.
"While you're at it, please accept my invitation to refrain from contributing anything to any thread on the subject of bodhrans. "
Thank you for your kind invitation. I'll give it all the consideration it deserves.
"Since you reject them totally, you can't offer anything of value to the discussion. "
As I said, I've played a lot of bodhran, and I've made a lot of money playing the bodhran. It's entirely possible I've played the bodhran longer than you have, and it's possible I play it better than you do. It's very likely I've taught more people to play the thing than you have.
Please try to pay attention.
"Even if you're a red-hot player, which I doubt,"
You're right to doubt it. I'm not. I'm good enough to enjoy playing with some good players, and good enough that they enjoy playing with me. Nothing special, though, and I've got a lot to learn. One reason I gave up the bodhran, as it happens - after the second month of playing, there's really nothing more to learn.
"If you want to play in a clique, stay out of pub sessions."
Okay, if I ever want to play in a clique, I'll stay out of pub sessions. I don't see why I'd want to do that, but it's good advice.
"They obviously ain't for you, since they'll let just anyone in."
Just now, you were saying what a jerk I was for letting just anyone in, weren't you? Come on, buddy, keep your story straight.
"Therefore, any contribution you make is snide bullying"
Snide? Okay, I'll own that. I can do snide. Welcome to the internet. Snide comes with the territory. Bullying? Well, if I were able to push anyone around on the internet, I wouldn't, any more than I do in real life, so I don't see where you get "bullying" from, but since we're unlikely ever to meet, you can hold on to that if it helps you sleep better at night.
"I don't wanna hear it, and no other bodhran player wants to hear it"
I know you don't want to hear it. Truth stings a little going in, but it's for your own good in the long run.
So there you go. I hope that clears up some of your misconceptions, but you're a drummer, so it's unlikely. Do try to relax, though, it can't be good for you to get this worked up.
“I just don't like the playing of the bodhran. It's a wretched misery, it's a cry for help, it's a sickness and an affliction, but the people who play the thing are often perfectly nice people”. Yet…
“As I said, I've played a lot of bodhran, and I've made a lot of money playing the bodhran”.
The strange case of Doctor Kiparsky and Mr Hyde? Either you play the thing and make reasonable contributions when the subject is raised, or you hate the thing and you keep your nose out. Whichever, you should stop flaming every poor sod who mentions them.
“One reason I gave up the bodhran, as it happens - after the second month of playing, there's really nothing more to learn.”
Oh, too right! Talk about basic... I had one tin whistle lesson. It went “blow in one end and move your fingers about”. I stopped going after that, cos I knew I’d nothing more to learn.
"Either you play the thing and make reasonable contributions when the subject is raised, or you hate the thing and you keep your nose out"
Okay, one more time again:
I play the thing, or used to. I like the thing. I don't like hearing it in a session, because it's irrelevant at best and an obstruction at worst. I'd play a gig on the bodhran again without hesitation, if the money was right, but there's no point in playing it at a session.
Do work at it a bit more, you'll get hold of it sooner or later.
You're a bit thick, but I have faith in you.
I think they're fine in a pub band, or when playing with one, maybe two other people. But in a session, in a bar, when you have half a dozen people playing actual instruments, there's no room for the bodhran.
# Posted on July 6th 2011 by Jon Kiparsky
Finally agree.
With about six OTHER musicians ye need at least two bodhrans, one at each end of the session, just in case some idiot can't hear it and mucks up the timing.
Someone who thought it would be easy to play the drum, gave it all of two months, probably brought it to sessions, annoyed people, was told to get out until he learned how to play it, and holds a grudge against.....the instrument.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Were you aware you posted this???? Hoist by your own petard or......
Get six melody players together, all playing a tune, all stamping their collective feet. Sure ye will never hear anything except BOOM BOOM BOOM BOOM of the stamping feet.
Stop, you will be in Australia soon. Digging that is.
Now at some stage I was nearly going to show some sympathy because i guess there are many in the good old US of A who think they are Irish, want to join in, get a bodhran, master it in a very short time and then proceed to go round ruining sessions.
However, and there is no easy way of saying this, YOU ARE ONE OF THEM.
Two months??????? yes, I learnt the pipes in tewo months which is the reason I do NOT play them at sessions.
You also make much talk about "earning money" playing the bodhran. maybe in the US of A they measure thingsthat way but young people at work talk about someone called Robbie Williams who makes MILLIONS from music but can't play anything.
Every sunday in life I play a guitar (among other things) and sing and earn money but I am not very good at it, indeed I am AWFUL at it by any reasonabl;e musical standard, but the people in the pub insist.
As for bodhran lessons, yes one could coin [people into learning 754 sounds or whatever but I believe that the ONLY bodhran lesson is showing people how to use the playing hand. That is turning it towards the drum, using one knuckle, and trying to get a simple rhythm going. ANY rhythm.
if you can do that keep doing it IN THE HOUSE for about 6 months, and then if you want, get a stick and use it as an extension of the finger with the knuckle on it.
After that, it is like ANY instrument, practice. Preferably in the HOUSE.
You do not master ANY instrument, even a shaky egg, in two months.
On a lighter note we saw a shaky egg player at the Willie week one year and he was unbelievably good. Must have practiced for years.
Bliss, you're trying too hard. You've agreed with me that there's essentially nothing to know about the bodhran, and you can't bear the thought that we're both saying the same thing.
Cope with it. There's nothing to know about playing the bodhran. If you're not entirely stupid, you know the whole of it in no time. Six months? Okay, if you're a bit slow, you can take six months at it. I think I can take anyone who wants to play, and they'll play perfectly well after two months, but sure, you can have six months to practice if you like.
I don't see that it makes much difference, two months or six months - the point is, there's not a lot to know, as you yourself have said, unnprompted by me.
Thats the kind of attitude that gets bodhran players a bad name, ''it just takes 6 months to learn' no wonder he got slagged for being a crap player! ..or was that 2 months? give it a rest!! jon obviously doesnt have a clue.
It only takes 10 min to learn to play the whistle, cover holes and blow, wiggle yr fingers about and there ye go.... of course to get a few tunes takes a wee biteen longer and to get really good....
Same with any instrument, the basics can often be attained within a few months but to be able to play an instrument well, with style, panache , verve, lift and drive.... doesnt come quite so easily! Though of course there are the gifted few who through perseverance and dedication and lots of practice can get to a reasonable standard within a few years.
For anyone to think it takes a few months to be able to play an instrument indicates that perhaps their standards are not too high.... I mean jeez! every tune has its own distinctive rhythmical patterns and phrasing, a good drummer will know many tunes and their patterns and be able to extemporise using their understanding and experience . I mean do these munchkins not realise how intricate and deep the field of percussion is? its like someone completely clueless about the fiddle going on about how easy it is and how it only takes a few months to learn to play... anyone who actually can play knows they are talking out of their arse. Jon going on about how little their is within bodhrán playing just demonstrates how little he knows. yes it might well only have taken him 2 months to learn to play, just as it took BB 2 months to learn to pipe I mean how hard can it be? its only got 8 holes? ... its only a bit of wood and leather... hmmm.
jeez look at the piano, just push the keys and a sound comes out... easy..ye can even play with yr elbows and for-arms crash tinkle thud... but for some reason the guys at the sesh were not impressed with my keyboard backing cant figure out why, sure the piano is just a crap instrument I reckon, its easy to play but ...I just don't like the playing of the piano, It's a wretched misery, it's a cry for help, it's a sickness and an affliction, but the people who play the thing are often perfectly nice people .... yes jon say no more I think we get the picture....
You've agreed with me that there's essentially nothing to know about the bodhran, and you can't bear the thought that we're both saying the same thing.
# Posted on July 6th 2011 by Jon Kiparsky
Jon, being a failed bodhran player is OK, the world is full of them, but a failed reader?
There is not much to a tin whistle, a bit of tin with 6 holes but devilish difficult to play at a session after two months!!!!!
Some people complicate the bodran, with all this nonsense about the hand at the back, different sounds, tuning it, and all that.
But it still takes lots of practice to play properly.
It has a bad name because eejits like you go out to the pub after two months thinking you know what you are doing.
So, to conclude, it has a bad name because of you and countless others, who are too lazy to learn to play it, properly.
Much easier to noodle on a bouzouki or guitar or something.
Now once you mentioned you had mastered the drum after two months, you lost the little credibility I was affording you.
No harm done. Stick to the zouk or whatever and enjoy yourself.
I can't imagine two people with more different debating styles than Jon K and bodhran bliss--one of the things that makes these discussions so interesting to watch. It is like id versus superego, and I will let you figure out who plays what role...
"Obviously you haven't been paying attention. I've played the bodhran since about 1992. It's made me as much money as any instrument I play, between teaching and gigs. "
"One reason I gave up the bodhran, as it happens - after the second month of playing, there's really nothing more to learn. "
So did you play the damn thing since 92 or only two months?
There's two kinds of bodhran player, one who views it as their main instrument and one who dabbles with it as not their main instrument.
I think that if you already play the music to a good standard and know a rake of tunes, you probably can learn to play the bodhran pretty quickly, as there is very little technique involved. The question of "why?" is another issue, but if you play in a band I'd think it would be a good idea. I like bodhrans in bands as an extra available arrangement of colour.
Then there's the other kind of bodhran player, the one who might dabble in a bit of whistle playing or rudimentary strumming. They face a problem of exclusion. They exclude themselves from the joy of playing these tunes and for the life of me, I can never understand why. Of course, there are those who may well be incapable but I'd view that as a pretty lame excuse ... even disabilities can be overcome. But though he might not like it, I agree with piobagusfidil in that it probably does take a lifetime of immersion in the music to become a really good bodhran player. But, again, why? Why exclude yourself?
And the other thing I don't understand about these kind of bodhran players is that they are often blind to that exclusion. And when, on the odd occasion, that exclusion manifests itself in a tangable way, where, for example, they might be in the company of players who simply just want to play tunes without distraction, they get angry. I'd like to say that really, they are angry with themselves, but they'd never in a million years accept that. They just accuse the tune players of snobbery and elitism. They don't understand why the tune players might wish to just play with other tunes players. I could try and explain it but really, there's no point.
I generally agree with the last post but I thought I'd just add one or two comments.
Llig suggests that before someone can be be competent playing bodhran and, presumably, other percussion as a main instrument, they should already have mastered the tunes on a melody instrument which is a fair point.
However, there are many "serious" players who haven't entered the world of "bodhran fun" by this route but are still capable of making a fair attempt. Yet, they would still require to know enough about the structure of "the music" and probably still have most of the tunes "in their head". Of course, this again poses the question... "Why not actually learn to play the tunes on a melody(I was going to say "real" but I'd better be nice) instrument instead?"
Another type of player along the lines of "the dabbler" is someone who is "learning" to play another instrument or may be already be a singer or guitarist who doesn't want to be "left out".
So, if he or she doesn't know a particular tune or is not singing or doing his or her own thing just reaches for his bodhran. However, as Llig suggests, although this is done because they wish to feel included, they are actually excluding themselves in the long run.
The same goes for "strummers", "noodlers" etc too, of course. It's very tempting to feel that you have to be doing something all the time but, for the most part, I have now trained myself to refrain from playing all the time especially when I don't quite know what I'm doing.
I never suggested that before someone can be be competent playing bodhran they should already have mastered the tunes on a melody instrument. It's perfectly possible to become an exceptionally good bodhran player without having ever touched a melody instrument. It will though, take a lifetime of intelligent listening and understanding of the tunes. Which as I say, begs the question, "why?"
"There's two kinds of bodhran player, one who views it as their main instrument and one who dabbles with it as not their main instrument.
I think that if you already play the music to a good standard and know a rake of tunes, you probably can learn to play the bodhran pretty quickly, as there is very little technique involved. The question of "why?" is another issue, but if you play in a band I'd think it would be a good idea. I like bodhrans in bands as an extra available arrangement of colour.
Then there's the other kind of bodhran player, the one who might dabble in a bit of whistle playing or rudimentary strumming. They face a problem of exclusion. They exclude themselves from the joy of playing these tunes and for the life of me, I can never understand why. Of course, there are those who may well be incapable but I'd view that as a pretty lame excuse ... even disabilities can be overcome. But though he might not like it, I agree with piobagusfidil in that it probably does take a lifetime of immersion in the music to become a really good bodhran player. But, again, why? Why exclude yourself?"
I actually agree with pretty much everything you say! I think I said earlier that an ability to play tunes or in some way conceptualise the music should be a requirement before anyone is allowed to so much as buy a bodhran. It should never be a 'first' instrument. Where we disagree is that you think it can be, and I'm paraphrasing you here, "at best a distraction; at worst, an irrelevance" in a session. I, on the other hand, don't agree with that assessment, but I think there's enough common ground for us to be able to stop banging heads about it.
m.d.
Sorry Michael but this will upset you. It is not all down to laziness. Some people actually.......like the bodhran, and are captivated by it on their introduction to Irish music.
And it does not have to be a flamboyant John Joe, in my case it was the quiet, elderly Peader mercier with the Chieftains, way back in 1962 before I owned any instruments.
Now between 1962 and 1976 (when I first bought a bodhran) I bought and played whistles, mouth organs, mandolin, even a banjo once. And yes, apart from the mouth organ which i could play to a reasonable standard, I dabbled on the others.
But I always liked the sound and contribution of the bodhran.
Id like to point out that there are plenty of tune players who thoroughly enjoy playing tunes with a good bodhran player. For me good drummer is great fun to play with , the frequencies are very apart so there is no overlap, there is no clashing of variation. No problem of dodgy irrelevant chord choices from a backer/guitar/bazouki no issues of different second parts or tunes not known. No empty moments as we search for tunes in common.
We are all called to different instruments and thats part and parcel of the musical world ., if we were all fiddlers wouldn't the sessions be dull! I mean Im not one for the fiddle orchestra particularly, I dont really like the sound of massed fiddlers though of course it has its place. The different tones and textures makes up the sound of the session. so heres for flutes whistles, boxes and banjos , pipes and Bodhráns fiddles and whatever else does it for ye. Its all good.
I only object to bodhrans when I can't hear myself or others over them . I have no dogmatic objection to the instrument, and most people in real life seem to feel much the same.
piobagusfidil, I know there are plenty of tune players who thoroughly enjoy playing tunes with a good bodhran player. But that's the point point ... you are playing the tunes with them ... you are not sharing the tunes with them. There is no clashing of variation because all the variation is coming from you. There is no variation to interact with. There are no empty moments because all the choices are coming from you. You don't have tunes in common because they have no tunes to share.
I like to share a tune. I like to react to different versions/settings/variations
And it may well be the different tones of instruments that make up the sound of a session, but it's the tunes that make the music.
For me good drummer is great fun to play with , the frequencies are very apart so there is no overlap, there is no clashing of variation. No problem of dodgy irrelevant chord choices from a backer/guitar/bazouki no issues of different second parts or tunes not known. No empty moments as we search for tunes in common.
The meaning is there already. I have a t-shirt I bought at Willie Week a few years ago which just says "Willie Week." The comments this has engendered are often fantastic. Most recently, a woman at Newcastleton approached me and said, "What on earth does your t-shirt mean?" I said that it was a festival in Ireland named after a guy called Willie Clancy. She was like, "Oh, I thought you might be a sexual health worker!"
Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
Forgive me if you've seen this question a million times. I've done a search but can't find anything specifically about correctness.
I'm currently in Ireland on a study abroad tour, and I went to a few sessions in Dublin. One bodhrán player swore that you should keep your wrist straight, which got me thinking about the way I play, which is in the Kerry style with a bent wrist. I've found some places on the internet that say that the bent wrist style is also accepted, but most of the videos of good bodhrán players I've found on youtube are of straight wrist players.
I'm going to be in Galway in a couple of days, and I plan to go to other sessions and get more pointers from other people, but I'd also like to know what people think here. So, is one way considered more proper? If I keep playing with a bent wrist, am I going to be marked as a substandard bodhrán player? Or is my only worry the issue of wrist strain and carpal tunnel? I'm fairly proficient already--I'm comfortable with rolls and so forth, and I'm not thrilled with the idea of learning to play all over again, but I'm wondering if it might be a prudent move . . .
I may seem a bit uneducated here, so bear with me; I'm new to session culture. My original music teacher is a bit . . . casual about his approach to Irish music, and I'd like to start out my own playing as correctly as possible.
# Posted on June 28th 2011 by dublin wannabe
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
whatever works is correct.
# Posted on June 28th 2011 by mcknowall
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
It doesn't matter if you're bent or straight in New York.
# Posted on June 28th 2011 by Hup
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
I'll bring the popcorn
But on a serious note, i'm not sure of the bent wrist. The instruments i know of require a straight wrist. I know that wrist bent downward is bad, but as of bent upward i'm not so sure.
# Posted on June 28th 2011 by fiddlelearner
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
Anyone who tells you there's a correct style of playing the bodhran is having you on. If you must play it, play it in time and with restraint, and preferably somewhere else - beyond that, it's up to you.
# Posted on June 28th 2011 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
I hope your teacher has given you fair warning that carpal tunnel may not be inevitable, but no matter how you play, the slagging -- both good-natured and not so much -- will be. If you can play softly and in time and take the slagging in good humour, you'll be fine.
# Posted on June 28th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
mcknowall is right, whatever works. but in my opinion i can't imagine how a straight wrist could work
# Posted on June 28th 2011 by Surly Boy
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
whatever works is correct.
# Posted on June 28th 2011 by mcknowall
Spot on.
I have been playing bodhran for 35 years and actually had to think about the wrist thing. Obviously i have NEVER noticed anyone else's wrist style.
But perhaps the Greeks among us (bouzouki bangers) will be able to enlighten you.
Oh one bit of advice, make sure you can HEAR the drum above the melody otherwise it is pointless. You may have to hit it really hard if you are unfortunate enough to play at sessions with those accursed foot tappers.
# Posted on June 28th 2011 by bodhran bliss
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
Nice one, BB.
(WD - in case you hadn't noticed, that would be an example of what surly boy was talking about...)
# Posted on June 28th 2011 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
Whichever technique works *and doesn't hurt you*! I got pretty good using the bent wrist technique but I wish I'd used a straight wrist. Maybe I wouldn't have developed a near crippling repetitive motion injury, carpal tunnel syndrome (tested for and diagnosed) in my right arm only. Yeah, it hurt all the way up to my elbow. I practiced a lot and developed my forearm till I looked like a tennis with a larger wrist might not be at as much risk as I was.
# Posted on June 28th 2011 by Tracie
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
This might be a good option - hands-free bodhran playing.
Free to drink, tap your foot, play with your iphone and play tunes
all at the same time (or sequentially) while keeping the drum going:
http://store.drumbum.com/skuA-186.html
# Posted on June 28th 2011 by Hup
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
I approve of the hands-off approach, but not the pedal.
If you use your psycho-kinetic powers to play the drum, you'll certainly avoid carpal tunnel issues. It's also very good for your rhythm - you'll never play off beat.
# Posted on June 28th 2011 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
There are no rules.
# Posted on June 28th 2011 by gam
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
Refresh on why Bodhran players are attacked so much? It was said before that it's because a lot of Bodhran players treat it like it's easy, like they don't have to learn it, that they're too lazy to take the time to learn a real instrument. But i don't think those are the only reasons. The way some folks act here is as if the Bodhran itself was bad, not so much the player. What's your problem with the Bodhran?
# Posted on June 28th 2011 by fiddlelearner
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
You've pretty well summarized it 'learner. Plus you get the phenomenon
of four bodhrans showing up all at once. There are some really
good ones around, but too often it's people who want to participate
in the session experience without doing any work - learning tunes,
learning to play an instrument, etc. Sometimes they can actively wreck
a session by playing out of time and too loud. One time I sat next to
a guy who was beating the crap out of really big one with a hairbrush.
I could hardly hear myself playing a flute.
# Posted on June 28th 2011 by Hup
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
Fortunately it was just a short lunchtime session and I never
saw the dude again after that.
# Posted on June 28th 2011 by Hup
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
Bodhran Bliss summed it pretty well: "make sure you can HEAR the drum above the melody otherwise it is pointless".
If it's played really well and tastefully as an accompaniment to the melody the very best it can aspire to be is pointless (though some still find it irritating). But when played over the melody it does serve a purpose ... that of entertaining people who are not interested (for what ever reason) in listening to the tunes.
# Posted on June 28th 2011 by ...
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
I too had to think a while and play a little "air bodhrán" to be able to answer..
I play with very slightly bent wrist, with a tendency to straighten it when playing fast. That said, just look at Colm Murphy and his way of holding the stick, or Mr Hayes peculiar top end style and you´ll realise that 'anything goes'
re. annoying players i have had my share of those as well.. i must say that newbie fiddle players, constantly slightly out of tune and rhythm swaying like a rubber metronome is no fun at all either.
My favorite annoyance must be spoon "players" who go at it mechanically whether it's a slow air or a polka :-p
Also i have a very low tolerance level for people who bring non-bodhrán drums to sessions, the worst i have experienced was Djembe drum (he was politely told to vamoose and take the noisy effer with him though)
# Posted on June 28th 2011 by Mr_Blackwood
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
I'm learning that a drum doesn't fit in everything. But i especially like them in Mixolydian tunes. I wouldn't like them at all in the laid back tunes.
# Posted on June 28th 2011 by fiddlelearner
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
"newbie fiddle players, constantly slightly out of tune and rhythm swaying"? But at least they are making an effort.
# Posted on June 28th 2011 by ...
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
"Mixolydian"? Why would the scale of a tune tune be of any relevance to non-tuned percussion?
# Posted on June 28th 2011 by ...
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
because, Mixolydian tunes have a different feel(spirit) than other tunes. Just like Minor tunes have a different feel than Major tunes(i don't know the mode names for major and minor). But i do know that all of the Mixolydian tunes i know, i would prefer to have drums, whereas just about all the major and minor tunes, i can't seem to hear drums with them. It's not about tuning, it's about feel.
# Posted on June 28th 2011 by fiddlelearner
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
The shortest bodhran lesson I have ever heard consisted of the instruction "it's just like tossing".
Which would imply straight wrist for guys, bent for girls.
# Posted on June 28th 2011 by Jack Campin
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
@ Jack Campin- I think that's a very tidy summation of the entire matter at hand....
# Posted on June 28th 2011 by pipewatcher
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
I think there is an understandable tendency among those who haven't been listening to this music for decades to hear a scale with a major 3rd and a minor 7th as being exotic. To be really comfortable with the music, you have to get over this.
# Posted on June 28th 2011 by ...
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
agreed. I've never heard a tune and thought, 'this would sound better with a bodhran" - no matter what the key or mode or scale whatever
# Posted on June 28th 2011 by pipewatcher
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
"...To be really comfortable with the music, you have to get over this." There's nothing to get over. I actually enjoy it more because it is less common. I like the "exotic" feeling. It's fresh and new. Mind-opening. I'm already comfortable.
# Posted on June 28th 2011 by fiddlelearner
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
And it's not that i would prefer a bodhran while *listening. I would like one while playing though. It would be a lot more fun for me than playing solo, and if i'm any good, fun for the bodhranist as well.
# Posted on June 28th 2011 by fiddlelearner
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
@fiddlelearner- i meant either listening or playing. i never feel a lack of percussive accompaniment. although playing my B set all by myself in my kitchen, i often feel the lack of a slack-tuned fiddle
# Posted on June 28th 2011 by pipewatcher
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
@llig leahcim
"But at least they are making an effort."
So is a bodhrán *player* as opposed to a bodhrán *owner*
Unfortunately it is the latter who give the instrument a bad name.
I have never heard Colm Murphy or Johnny McDonagh dominate or 'spoil' a tune..
# Posted on June 28th 2011 by Mr_Blackwood
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
oh ok, i get that pipewatcher. Most of the tunes i play i could care less. A lot of them i can't hear or feel any type of percussion. But some i would very much like percussion in. Now that i think about it, these are tunes that i've learned from recordings that used bodhrans. "Dark Haired Lass" Altan. "The Rolling Waves" The Chieftains. etc. I likely first heard them with bodhran, and am use to it being there.
# Posted on June 28th 2011 by fiddlelearner
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
I think there is an understandable tendency among those who have been listening to this music for decades to hear a scale with a major 3rd and a major 7th as being boring.
Maybe, from what we read on the forums.
# Posted on June 28th 2011 by David50
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
@Fiddlelearner
Many mixolydian tunes are tunes from the piping tradition, and for that reason the intervals are often a little more jumpy and percussive than tunes in the major and minor modes. Search out more recordings of old-style traditional Irish piping and hopefully you'll start hearing pipes and not drums in your head when you're listening to mixolydian tunes.
# Posted on June 28th 2011 by Dragut Reis
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
fiddlelearner, I didn't choose the term "exotic" lightly:
"of foreign origin or character; not native; introduced from abroad, but not fully naturalised or acclimatised"
It's good that you are enjoying the exotic. It's good that you feel it fresh and new. And one can be comfortable with the exotic. But for your playing to be "naturalised" you have to get over the feeling of it being exotic. The music has to acclimatise itself to you and you to it. You have to hear it as something familiar, as part of you.
# Posted on June 28th 2011 by ...
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
Also, the point Mr Gill is making is that mixolydian tunes are not in the least bit exotic. They come from the piping tradition, which is to say, from the heart of the traditional Irish musical culture, not from its fringe.
# Posted on June 28th 2011 by Dragut Reis
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
X-post
# Posted on June 28th 2011 by Dragut Reis
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
Nice point Smash, about hearing pipes not drums
# Posted on June 28th 2011 by ...
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
hear, hear
# Posted on June 28th 2011 by pipewatcher
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
I love the Pipes. They are amazing. I heard a version of "Sunny Banks" on youtube, and it was played on the Pipes.(still learning how to spell that "U" word) "Dogs Among The Bushes" is played on the Pipes on "The Best of The Chieftains" album, and it's one of my favorite tunes. I like the drone, how the musics flows, so so smoothly. There tone is so thick and rich with harmony. There are many instruments i like listening to more...
# Posted on June 28th 2011 by fiddlelearner
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
*cross post*... I plan on learning more tunes from Pipe recordings, especially after i learned that the Pipes are why the "Donegal" fiddle tradition is so distinct. Someone commented on how when i play, i bow every note, instead of putting more notes to one bow. They commented that i should learn tunes from Pipe recordings. After doing a bit of research, i learned why the Pipes were so important. I am now dedicated to collecting Pipe recordings so i can learn the ways.
# Posted on June 28th 2011 by fiddlelearner
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
not the version with "Johnny Henry's"was it ? hehheh
# Posted on June 28th 2011 by pipewatcher
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
There are lots of great clips on Youtube. You could start with the following:
Séamus Ennis
Willie Clancy
Liam O'Flynn
Mick O'Brien
Ronan Browne
# Posted on June 28th 2011 by Dragut Reis
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
Why yes it was pipewatcher, haha. Where did you get that? And Smash the Windows, thanks for the Artist names
# Posted on June 28th 2011 by fiddlelearner
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
http://source.pipers.ie/Search/SearchResult.aspx?searchTerm=david+power&startRowIndex=12&pageSize=12&mediaId=4754
# Posted on June 28th 2011 by pipewatcher
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
typo, i meant "There aren't many instruments i like listening to more." mybad.
# Posted on June 28th 2011 by fiddlelearner
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
@ fiddlelearner-
yours truly
(humble bow)
cheers
# Posted on June 28th 2011 by pipewatcher
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
Thanks pipewatcher. May i say, i am impressed. I discovered that video you posted months ago. Didn't know it was you though. Thanks for the new resource. I've worn myself out looking for tunes on "youtube" and "comhaltas". Now i can look for Piped versions of all my favorite tunes
You rock.
# Posted on June 28th 2011 by fiddlelearner
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
The Kerry style of playing with a bent wrist. Is that something like the Longford style of Shaky Egg.playing ?
Now if you to put a snare on it and learn the French finger style I'm sure you'd be welcome in 'nearly' every session in the country.
http://youtu.be/LHrqf-EJRiE
# Posted on June 28th 2011 by Free Reed
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
thanks for your kind words. Here's another link:
http://www.itma.ie/digitallibrary/soundrecordings-all/
# Posted on June 28th 2011 by pipewatcher
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
"The Kerry style of playing with a bent wrist. Is that something like the Longford style of Shaky Egg.playing ?"
It all, all of it, can be traced to Kerry spoon-playing.
Even knucke-rapping on the bar-top, all of it came from Kerry.
That's why it tends to go faster and faster.
# Posted on June 28th 2011 by Piece
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
Me and my best chum learned to play the fiddle and pipes respectively together, so my fiddle playing owes much to the pipes. But it's a mistake to think that that should be all staccato. Much of piping is, but there are also smoother styles.
# Posted on June 28th 2011 by ...
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
I thought the Donegal Style was legato because of the pipes? Or maybe there's more than one Donegal style?
# Posted on June 28th 2011 by fiddlelearner
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGyhboYFfOE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wUv3SL3Cio4&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHqFlS3gNMs&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TlT3CmtKTqo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4OAkUN-m3A&feature=related
Also check out these films:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8PVj_NIPM6Y&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TiehZZ2tXKg&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hebBrG8cLbs
# Posted on June 28th 2011 by Dragut Reis
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
'I thought the Donegal Style was legato because of the pipes? Or maybe there's more than one Donegal style? '
You're thinking is muddled and as so often based on hearing a half understood statement.
Donegal and pipes are often mentioned together because of double-stopping and droning and even making that connection is dubious enough as it is.
No 'regional' style (I use the term for ease and short hand there) is uniform, any area will host a range of different styles.
# Posted on June 28th 2011 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
Has anyone EVER advised someone learning the pipes/fiddle/flute to play......quietly?
# Posted on June 28th 2011 by bodhran bliss
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
No. That has NEVER happened.
# Posted on June 28th 2011 by Dragut Reis
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
@fiddlelearner, someone here once gave an honest reason why Bodhran players are picked on so much.
They said (and it's very true) "A drum is the easiest instrument to play bad, and the hardest instrument to play good."
After 48 years of playing drums, I got to say that is the truth and nothing but the truth.
I play mostly Kerry style and keep my wrist pretty straight.
# Posted on June 28th 2011 by Thom M
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
"Has anyone EVER advised someone learning the pipes/fiddle/flute to play......quietly?"
a) I've always advised my students, on any instrument, to learn to play across the full dynamic range of the instrument, at top volume and as quietly as possible, and to do the same things at both ends of the range as well as at any point in between. So I've taught people to play the banjo, guitar, mandolin, and harmonica.... quietly. And, come to think of it, I've even taught people to play the bodhran quietly.
b) An instrument that is mostly known for playing too loudly and too much deserves extra attention to the "quiet" end of its dynamic range. So the guitar and the bodhran have to learn to be effective with extreme restraint.
c) music is about listening. If you play too loud, you can't listen.
# Posted on June 28th 2011 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
"A drum is the easiest instrument to play bad, and the hardest instrument to play good."
Give someone a set of pipes and a bodhran, lets see which one takes more time and more effort to "play good."
# Posted on June 28th 2011 by banshee misfortune
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
www.standingstones.com/donegalf.html Thats the article i read about the Pipes and the Fiddle relation.
# Posted on June 28th 2011 by fiddlelearner
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
Thom M, sorry but i don't agree with that. I don't believe it. Have you heard how bad the fiddle can sound? Going through a year of that thing crying, wailing, shrieking, moaning? See, an instrument with many tonal changes have the potential to sound a lot worse than instruments that don't. Ex. You can't change the tone of a piano(unless you touch the strings). No matter how good or bad you are, a C note will sound the same no matter who plays it. I can't say the same for the stringed instruments and pipes. Drums are matter of fact the easiest instrument to learn, because you don't have to worry about melodie or harmonies, just rhythm.
# Posted on June 28th 2011 by fiddlelearner
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
Thom M, sorry but i don't agree with that. I don't believe it. Have you heard how bad the fiddle can sound? Going through a year of that thing crying, wailing, shrieking, moaning? See, an instrument with many tonal changes have the potential to sound a lot worse than instruments that don't. Ex. You can't change the tone of a piano(unless you touch the strings). No matter how good or bad you are, a C note will sound the same no matter who plays it. I can't say the same for the stringed instruments and pipes. Drums are matter of fact the easiest instrument to learn, because you don't have to worry about melody or harmonies, just rhythm.
# Posted on June 28th 2011 by fiddlelearner
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
""A drum is the easiest instrument to play bad, and the hardest instrument to play good."
The above is one of the strangest things I have ever read here.
How can anyone rationally arrive at that about ANY instrument?
And, I will opine, ESPECIALLY the bodhran, given its history of use, mis-use, and out right ab-use?
# Posted on June 28th 2011 by Piece
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
Jerone, the bodhran can, and does have a lot of tonal changes. That's one of the reasons you place your hand inside. It allows the player to tighten or loosen the skin and change the tone. Placement of the hand and where tipper is striking can also affect the tone.
This is one of the things that sets the bodhran apart from most other drums (Timpani is a notable exception) where there is a big importance for the musician to have a good ear for pitch. Mastering this part of the bodhran isn't easy, and even harder to get to play tastefully. When you open up this pandora's box it takes a bit of restraint and ability to know when, where, and how to use it, which takes knowing the tunes. This bit is what seperates decent bodhran players, and really good bodhran players.
# Posted on June 28th 2011 by banshee misfortune
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
I think the idea about 'easy to play bad, hard to play good' is about right for any musical instrument including percussion.
There's a saying among bands that any band is only as good as their drummer.
The old goatskin is very difficult to play well, easy to make a dreadful annoying artless amateur racket on. As evryone here will probably testify to!
# Posted on June 28th 2011 by yhaalhouse
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
I've played with some very good sympathetic, empathetic and highly musically aware percussionists of all varieties.
# Posted on June 28th 2011 by yhaalhouse
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
About the bodhran player's *other* hand; In so many cases(BUT NOT ALL), the hands behind the drumheads are moving around furiously, for no valid reason reason at all, other than to make the whole business look impressive. (I happen to enjoy a well-played bodhran, btw.)
# Posted on June 28th 2011 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
"Drums are matter of fact the easiest instrument to learn,"
Do you remember that clip I linked to of ustad Alla Rakha, Jerone?
# Posted on June 28th 2011 by Weejie
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
@ fiddlelearner
The reason I say that is because when you played the fiddle bad, you knew it and so did everyone who heard you.
With drums you can play them bad and not have a clue, and in fact think they sound good.
I'm not saying any instrument is easy to learn, if they where I would be playing a lot more of them
I think the Bodhran bashing here proves my point more then disproving it.
Way to many people will pick up a drum and figure out how to keep a beat (sometimes) and think they are a musician.
They play poorly and think they're the greatest.
In reality they can't even spell dynamics let alone know what it is and how to apply dynamics to their playing.
# Posted on June 28th 2011 by Thom M
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
I remember Weejie. I just think that if we keep in mind that No *real instrument is really *easy(which i'm beginning to have doubts about), then the drums has to be the least hard(but still hard).
# Posted on June 28th 2011 by fiddlelearner
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
Not sure if this is the one, but it demonstrates that the bodhran and timpani are not alone when it comes to shifting of pitch during play:
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xbr32v_ravi-shankar-alla-rakha-tabla-solo_music
I could mention other drums too.
# Posted on June 28th 2011 by Weejie
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
Yes, the bodhran does have some tonal changes(and i like the big ones that make water sounds) but does is have as many as a horn or pipe? Very little things can affect the timbre of an instrument, and i think the ones that have air blown into them are a bit more versatile. I know that snare drums and toms are tightened and loosed to change their tone. And i've seen several different things done with kicks. But i still feel that drums aren't as hard as the others. And a standard drum set isn't the only instrument that uses both hands and feet.
# Posted on June 28th 2011 by fiddlelearner
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
They aren't as hard; but so what? I'd be elated to have some one the likes of a Ringo McDonagh sit in at my session.
# Posted on June 28th 2011 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
I love Drummers. I treat them like any other Musician. I was just telling Thom how i slightly disagreed with his idea.
# Posted on June 28th 2011 by fiddlelearner
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
@ figglelearner
I agree drums are not the most difficult instrument to learn.
It's just that they are so easy to play bad and get away with it, many so called drummers don't put in the effort to learn to play them properly.
When I was taking lessons many, many, years ago, I really didn't think they where a hard instrument to learn. But right from day one I was learning to play them properly.
Now I have a friend who never played an instrument and bought a drum set. Two days later he was playing in a band that ended up being a local favorite. He admitted he was a bad drummer, but the bands fans loved him. I couldn't listen to him. After playing for a few years he decided to take lessons and learn the proper way to play. Because of all the bad playing habits he picked up, he soon stopped taking lessons because he said it was to hard to learn the proper way.
That's why I say they are easy to play bad, but hard to play good.
I just wanted to clear that up a little more.
I don't want anyone to get the impression that I think drums are the hardest instrument to learn how to play.
# Posted on June 28th 2011 by Thom M
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
c) music is about listening. If you play too loud, you can't listen.
# Posted on June 28th 2011 by Jon Kiparsky
Yes, I have been saying that for years.
Problem is, most melody players are so caught up in what they are doing, they can't listen, to the others at a session.
Hence the need at times for a drummer to establish timing, but obviously the bad listeners must be able to hear the drum......
# Posted on June 28th 2011 by bodhran bliss
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
"Problem is, most melody players are so caught up in what they are doing, they can't listen, to the others at a session. Hence the need at times for a drummer to establish timing, but obviously the bad listeners must be able to hear the drum......"
If they're not listening to each other, why do you suppose they'd listen to to the drum? No, that is not a situation that calls for a louder drummer, the only thing to do then is to pack up and leave.
But I don't think I've ever come across that particular situation - what I've seen a lot of is drummers who can't find the beat, so they assume they have to play louder to establish whatever beat they think is going on.
Chaos and muddle follow inevitably, and a wretched time is had by all.
# Posted on June 28th 2011 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
with the risk of inviting loads of jokes, i have played bent wrist style for twenty years. As a result, I have completely F****d up my wrist and have been told (medically) that I should not play for long time.
# Posted on June 28th 2011 by martinmc
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
Kerry who?
# Posted on June 29th 2011 by mcknowall
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
Using a drum to get people playing on the beat is kind of like using a two by four to get their attention...
# Posted on June 29th 2011 by AlBrown
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
If they're not listening to each other, why do you suppose they'd listen to to the drum? No, that is not a situation that calls for a louder drummer, the only thing to do then is to pack up and leave.
But I don't think I've ever come across that particular situation - what I've seen a lot of is drummers who can't find the beat, so they assume they have to play louder to establish whatever beat they think is going on.
Chaos and muddle follow inevitably, and a wretched time is had by all.
# Posted on June 28th 2011 by Jon Kiparsky
Must be awful living in the US of A.
In Ireland now.........well the bodhran is the main man.
# Posted on June 29th 2011 by bodhran bliss
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
Here's a solution! Ever bodhranist and guitarist could learn a *second instrument! That way, if more than one bodhranist, or guitarist showed up, they could all agree to let *one bodhranist, and *one guitarist play, and every other could play something else!
There problem solved ^^
# Posted on June 29th 2011 by fiddlelearner
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
All this talk about drummers confuses me. Surely Bodhran Players should be known as 'Early Irish Drummers' because they are playing an early Irish drum. That would stop me confusing them with two handed drummers such as Buddy Rich etc..
# Posted on June 29th 2011 by Free Reed
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
" That would stop me confusing them with two handed drummers such as Buddy Rich etc.. "
The better bodhran players play with two hands.
" 'Early Irish Drummers' "
I've known a few bodhran players to regularly come in late.
# Posted on June 29th 2011 by Weejie
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
When playing a bodhran neither the hand nor the wrist should move. Any apparent movement of the hand in fact comes from the rotating action of the radius and ulna. If the wrist is bent then the hand acts as a load on the muscles and ligaments, especially in the wrist. In some people this can cause damage. However if the wrist is kept straight, with the thumb on top and along the same axis as the rest of the arm, the the twisting of the radius and ulna transfers the motion directly to the tipper without strain on the wrist.
# Posted on June 29th 2011 by curiadydrwm
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
The better bodhran players play with two hands
I have yet to meet a Bodhran player who can do a hand to hand paradiddle or who even knows what a paradiddle is.
# Posted on June 29th 2011 by Free Reed
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
One hand inside, to change tone, one holding the tipper.
Some may say it's more adventurous than a paradiddle.
# Posted on June 29th 2011 by Weejie
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
"I have yet to meet a Bodhran player who can do a hand to hand paradiddle or who even knows what a paradiddle is."
The way I do a paradiddle on the Bodhran is down-up-down-down, up-down-up-up, etc. That would be a single paradiddle similar to what you would do on a snare drum which is l-r-ll, r-l-rr
# Posted on June 29th 2011 by Thom M
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
"But I don't think I've ever come across that particular situation - what I've seen a lot of is drummers who can't find the beat, so they assume they have to play louder to establish whatever beat they think is going on.
Chaos and muddle follow inevitably, and a wretched time is had by all."
Perhaps the problem, which I believe I have observed more than once, lies partly with drummers who think they have to be a major part of the over-all "sound". They feel an unbalanced need to be heard is my guess. Self-importance, maybe, or validation for what they do.
They have to somehow be dominant. Otherwise they would be reduced musically into mere backers, and nothing more than a subtle presence threading through the whole, rather like a heartbeat.
That does not seem to be nearly enough for some drummers egos or insecurities.
It could be worse, though - you could be in Ireland, where the bodhran is the "main man".
# Posted on June 30th 2011 by Piece
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
Oh the diddly iddly didddy oh
# Posted on June 30th 2011 by mcknowall
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
@Piece- I remember in high school when i sung in choir. How i didn't like singing tenor because we didn't often get the lead in the music we were doing. One day i realized that even though we rarely got the lead, we still made a big contribution to the overall sound. Knowing that i was a little color in a big picture was actually comforting. I learned how to follow, and put in work even when the attention didn't go to me. One of the greater, more useful lessons i've learned. Now i can encourage singers in the choir i direct. Because all parts are important(accept for percussion in ITM because it's not needed).
# Posted on June 30th 2011 by fiddlelearner
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
except .... you don't want to be accepting it.
# Posted on June 30th 2011 by ...
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
sorry, bad grammar on my part
# Posted on June 30th 2011 by fiddlelearner
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
It is a matter of 'health', meaning one way isn't wrong necessarily but is unhealthy, and that is the bent wrist. It makes common sense if you think of all the 'wiring' in your arm. Your doing a lot of moving when whackin' away, and if the wrist is bent then you have all those tendons and the tubing they move in crimped, under tension. On can feel that tension. The same is true for the fiddle. You do not want that tension. You do not want that 'unnatural' crimp in the wrist and consequently with all that wiring, including the blood vessels and the whole structure.
The same is true for ANY instrument, not just the bodhran. Some well known bodhranistas have had the usual drummer problems, meaning RSI, Repetitive Strain Injury. If you want to reduce that possibility then find the most 'natural' condition for your arm, wrist and hand. HOW? Like with other instruments, shake your your hands and then just let your arms and hands find their most comfortable, 'natural' state, and it IS NOT BENT!!!
That doesn't mean you can't play well with a bent wrist, but it is without any doubt not 'natural' and consequently not as healthy as a straight wrist, or 'gently' curved... You can feel it too, that difference in tension, and consequently WEAR. Try both ways free hand, and alternate with both wrists, elbows at side, arms bent forward, rotate with a straight wrist, then with a bent one, and back and forth. There is are big differences.
But, you make your choices and you take your risks. Either way can lead to RSI problems, but the bent wrist can get you that pain and discomfort quicker...
Best of luck...
# Posted on June 30th 2011 by ceolachan
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
Because all parts are important(accept for percussion in ITM because it's not needed).
# Posted on June 30th 2011 by fiddlelearner
That's deep.
just think of the pearls you can offer when you become Fiddle Player.
# Posted on July 1st 2011 by bodhran bliss
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
Oh forgot to say, Sean O'Riada has passed on so no point in telling him he got it wrong........
# Posted on July 1st 2011 by bodhran bliss
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
"just think of the pearls you can offer when you become Fiddle Player."
I don't think the two handles are mutually exclusive. Good players are always learning. Judging by the clips he's posted, I'd say Jerone's pretty well on his way in learning.
That attitude of yours might explain the dire situation of your own playing, in that clip you posted a while back. (Or can you actually get through a whole tune without losing the beat, on a good day?)
# Posted on July 1st 2011 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
"Oh forgot to say, Sean O'Riada has passed on so no point in telling him he got it wrong........"
We could hold a wee seance and discuss it, I suppose.
But, in truth, he did not get it wrong.
He simply handed a loaded gun to a
lot of children, IMHO.
Bless all responsible drummers.
And remember:
Bodhrans don't kill sessions, people do.
# Posted on July 1st 2011 by Piece
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
If you wanna use Palin, Heston and the NRA for your defence, that says it all.
# Posted on July 1st 2011 by ...
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
Playing percussion for some 40 odd years now. What a lot of folks who don't truly know the art and who think anyone and their dog can play a drum forget is that we are there to accompany the melody. We are there to enhance, not to bury the music. Reading that four bodhran players were at one session all playing at the same time blows me away. It must have sounded like a cattle stampede. It's true, there are a ton of folks who purchase the Pakistani drum for $50 and hit the session circuit, ready to rock and roll. Unfortunately, it really impacts the guys like me who have worked their butts off to learn this art form. But then again we've all heard really bad pipers, string players etc., who give the art form a bad name as well.
# Posted on July 1st 2011 by baxdrum
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
"But then again we've all heard really bad pipers, string players etc., who give the art form a bad name as well."
No, can't say I've heard anything like that. I've heard bad musicians, of course, but they're mostly giving themselves the bad name. The drum, however - the more I hear, the less I find that it has any place in this music at all.
I'm convinced that in a session setting, the only person who really likes the bodhran is the bodhran player himself or herself. This is not the case with any proper instrument - I always like to hear a good flute player or piper, but even a "good" bodhran player is just a nuisance and an aggravation.
I would suggest that anyone who wants to understand why the bodhran is so roundly despised should try taking a few years off from playing it, and play a real instrument in a session. I think it won't be long before you too start dreading the ominous round bag of doom.
# Posted on July 1st 2011 by Jon Kiparsky
Good Technique = Low Impact
Live longer and happier by taking things easy, not pushed - showing consideration through technique for yourself, other musicians and music in general...
# Posted on July 2nd 2011 by ceolachan
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
There's is one very good Bodhranist at our session. She only plays tunes that she knows though. I like how it sounds.
# Posted on July 2nd 2011 by fiddlelearner
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
That attitude of yours might explain the dire situation of your own playing, in that clip you posted a while back. (Or can you actually get through a whole tune without losing the beat, on a good day?)
# Posted on July 1st 2011 by Jon Kiparsky
Lived with jealousy all my life, Jon.
Put it this way, imagine a "performance" at Yankee stadium next week, Matt Molloy, Liam Og, Tommy Peoples, a few others.
They see me and shout "hey bliss, we need a bodhran player, any chance?".
Not a problem to me, because I am a master, albeit on a humble bodhran.
If you know ANYTHING about music, watch that track again from the 2 minute mark when I start to take it semi seriously.
you MIGHT hear someone as good, you will NOT hear anyone better.
albeit on a humble bodhran.
I gave up bouzouki because I couldn't speak the language!!!!
# Posted on July 2nd 2011 by bodhran bliss
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
It could be worse, though - you could be in Ireland, where the bodhran is the "main man".
# Posted on June 30th 2011 by Piece
yes, I am glad I am not too familiar with the genre that appears to be "US of A's ill gotten idea of what passes for Irish music"
I prefer Irish music.
# Posted on July 2nd 2011 by bodhran bliss
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
"But then again we've all heard really bad pipers, string players etc., who give the art form a bad name as well."
No, can't say I've heard anything like that.
# Posted on July 1st 2011 by Jon Kiparsky
Not surprising. I think Baxdrum was talking about Irish Traditional sessions.
having read many of your posts I have no idea what type of gathering you attend.
But I do know it is not anything like any session I have EVER been at, in ......Ireland.
# Posted on July 2nd 2011 by bodhran bliss
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
I would suggest that anyone who wants to understand why the bodhran is so roundly despised should try taking a few years off from playing it, and play a real instrument in a session. I think it won't be long before you too start dreading the ominous round bag of doom.
# Posted on July 1st 2011 by Jon Kiparsky
Played harmonica for ten years at sessions (I know) and also mandolin for 5 years (sometimes bouzouki or tenor banjo) and then I saw the light.
Nowadays the like of Matt Molloy would say to me "I hope you haven't got that #####ng mandolin with you?"
But what would he know. he isn't even from New England.
# Posted on July 2nd 2011 by bodhran bliss
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
There's is one very good Bodhranist at our session. She only plays tunes that she knows though. I like how it sounds.
# Posted on July 2nd 2011 by fiddlelearner
In my short 45 year career playing music I can safely say I have never, ever met a fiddle player, piper, flute player, sax, trombone or trumpet player who played tunes they "did not know".
Probably, but this is a guess, because they.....did not know them.
How infantile are some people? Bad bodhran players are....bad.
Bad fiddle players are....bad.
End of.
# Posted on July 2nd 2011 by bodhran bliss
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
WOW, did you REALLY just say that we WILL NOT hear ANYONE better than YOU? It doesn't matter how famous you are(or were), there is someone better than you SOMEWHERE. It'd be different if someone bragged on you, but when you brag like this on yourself, that's just trashy. Let some other people brag on you. If you were as good as you said you were, you wouldn't have to say a thing, cause you wouldn't need to prove anything to anyone. I have no more words for this.
# Posted on July 2nd 2011 by fiddlelearner
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
"Lived with jealousy all my life, Jon."
But that's natural, you have so many people to be jealous of, Bliss. Just about anyone who's played the bodhran, you can reasonably envy their skills. Takes a big man to admit it, though.
"Put it this way, imagine a "performance" at Yankee stadium next week, Matt Molloy, Liam Og, Tommy Peoples, a few others.
They see me and shout "hey bliss, we need a bodhran player, any chance?".
Not a problem to me, because I am a master, albeit on a humble bodhran."
And then you wake up and change the sheets and go back to learning what a beat is. You'll get there, trust me. Some people, it just takes a bit longer, but you'll be a decent player one day. Master might be a bit much to hope for, though. You're old, you don't have that much time.
"If you know ANYTHING about music, watch that track again from the 2 minute mark when I start to take it semi seriously."
I'd rather not watch it again, thanks. I watched it once, and didn't believe what I'd seen, so I watched it again, and that's enough for anyone.
As I recall, you never actually kept up with the tune for more than maybe fifteen or twenty seconds at a time before you stopped to find your place.
"you MIGHT hear someone as good, you will NOT hear anyone better."
You might be right there. You don't have a lot of competition out here. Mostly we play music, not toys so much.
# Posted on July 2nd 2011 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
"Nowadays the like of Matt Molloy would say to me "I hope you haven't got that #####ng mandolin with you?""
So because Matt Molloy thinks you're a crap mandolin player, that means... what? I'll assume it means you're a crap mandolin player, Molloy's word is good enough for me. And besides, without a sense of rhythm, mandolin's going to sound pretty bad.
# Posted on July 2nd 2011 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
Jon, you're funny lol.
# Posted on July 2nd 2011 by fiddlelearner
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
Ya know, the majority of bodhran players I have met have really good rhythm, and understand dynamics. I know at least 4 that I consider to be really good, and a few others who at least keep a beat and a low profile to be tasteful in session. Not to mention, unlike BB was acting earlier, they are all generally humble and tactful.
I've had maybe one, maybe two, sessions where there were enough bodhran players without a clue that it bothered me. It is much more likely that something else (or myself) will ruin the craic for me.
Guess I'm just lucky to not have the worry so many others have.
# Posted on July 2nd 2011 by banshee misfortune
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
I looked at the video. Yes that's some good playing. But i don't like your drum.
# Posted on July 2nd 2011 by fiddlelearner
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
WOW, did you REALLY just say that we WILL NOT hear ANYONE better than YOU? It doesn't matter how famous you are(or were), there is someone better than you SOMEWHERE. It'd be different if someone bragged on you, but when you brag like this on yourself, that's just trashy. Let some other people brag on you. If you were as good as you said you were, you wouldn't have to say a thing, cause you wouldn't need to prove anything to anyone. I have no more words for this.
# Posted on July 2nd 2011 by fiddlelearner
If Mr Nadal comes on TV and says "hey, I might struggle against Fiddle Learner on the clay in Paris" we would all condemn him for being condescending.
Always tell the truth. Some have it, some haven't.
I have it.
# Posted on July 2nd 2011 by bodhran bliss
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
, Molloy's word is good enough for me. And besides, without a sense of rhythm, mandolin's going to sound pretty bad.
# Posted on July 2nd 2011 by Jon Kiparsky
Molloy doesn't know what he is talking about.
One night him and that Spanish eejit Carlos Nunez were simply raving about me as the best bodhran player ever.
I know it is true, but I mean neither of those two are from New England., so what would they know.
So if I was you, I wwouldn't trust Mr Molloy.
Peter, the son, he is a better judge. he just reckons I am brilliant, which is about right.
And he has a pub in New england so he should know.
USA,USA......
# Posted on July 2nd 2011 by bodhran bliss
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
I looked at the video. Yes that's some good playing. But i don't like your drum.
# Posted on July 2nd 2011 by fiddlelearner
SSSSHHHHHHHHHHUuuuussssshhhhhhh.
Eamon Maguire made that.
He could make a few drums out of you, the man is a monster LOL.
The faulty stick with weights falling out of it, not by Eamon Maguire.
In all honesty, joking aside, I have NEVER seen a better drum.
# Posted on July 2nd 2011 by bodhran bliss
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
And besides, without a sense of rhythm, mandolin's going to sound pretty bad.
# Posted on July 2nd 2011 by Jon Kiparsky
Beware the green eyed monster.......
If ye need Bouzouki lessons, give me a shout.
bodhran lesson (note the singular) costs $2,000.
that's because there only is one bodhran lesson.
# Posted on July 2nd 2011 by bodhran bliss
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
"that's because there only is one bodhran lesson."
In that case, you should have it. No, I insist, you need it more than I do.
# Posted on July 2nd 2011 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
Oops, getting old, thought I posted this earlier.
118 posts on a thread which is obscure shall we say?
and mostly due to a trans Atlantic interpretation of .....humour?
By the way Jon, surprised at you admitting on an open web forum that you know nothing about bodhrans.
# Posted on July 3rd 2011 by bodhran bliss
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
oh, and bodhran bliss, it is true that percussion is not needed. Percussion is usually used to rile people up and make them dance right? Well, even my bad fiddle playing has gotten people up dancing, from little kids, to teenagers, to old men, without the help of a drummer. So why would i want a drummer? Because i like how it sounds, and it would add more to the music. So even though it's not necessary, i still appreciate it.
# Posted on July 3rd 2011 by fiddlelearner
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
"So if I was you, I wwouldn't trust Mr Molloy.
Peter, the son, he is a better judge. he just reckons I am brilliant, which is about right."
Very cool, Bliss.
I'll mention you when I am in the Shaskeen, it's just down the road from me. Some friends of mine play there now and again. And Peter is really a first-rate musician, a fave of mine.
I hope I get to jam with him someday.
# Posted on July 3rd 2011 by Piece
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
"I would suggest that anyone who wants to understand why the bodhran is so roundly despised should try taking a few years off from playing it, and play a real instrument in a session. I think it won't be long before you too start dreading the ominous round bag of doom."
I got to say I love the attitude of you so called real musicians.
As someone who's played percussion instruments for 48 years I still chuckle at people who think drums aren't real instruments.
All it really shows is a huge lack of understanding.
# Posted on July 3rd 2011 by Thom M
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
Unfortunately 98% of people with bodhrans want to join in but can't be bothered or haven't got the time or patience to learn anything else, which is a pity for the 2% who know the tunes and can play...........
# Posted on July 3rd 2011 by minijackpot
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
"As someone who's played percussion instruments for 48 years I still chuckle at people who think drums aren't real instruments."
As someone who has been playing musical instruments for about 25 years and the bodhran for about 20, I still chuckle at the idea that playing the bodhran is anything like playing an instrument.
But again, if you turn up at a session with a non-bodhran musical instrument and play with instead of at the other people for a little while, you too will soon understand why everyone else there wishes the bodhran player would find some other place to do their thing. While you're playing the bodhran, it feels like you're playing music. When you're not playing it, it sounds like an irrelevant thumpy noise that sometimes coincides rhythmically with the music. Sort of like a pile driver at the construction site down the street, only it's in the room with you. If you're not willing to try the experiment, just believe me: we're sometimes too polite to say so, but we do wish you'd go away and play with a pub band, where you belong.
The bodhran does not help to "hold the session together", it does not "support the rhythm", it does not "keep the beat". If the session does not hold itself together, if its rhythm needs support, if it has trouble keeping the beat, there is at least one musician who is screwing things up, and the bodhran is only going to make things worse. So really, the bodhran is irrelevant at best in a session. It cannot add anything, it can only subtract.
# Posted on July 3rd 2011 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
Well, like i mentioned earlier, i like some of them, especially the big ones that make water sounds. But different people have different tastes. I remember at school, either during class, or in lunch, when we got bored, someone would take out a pencil and start making beats on the desk(lunchtable). Now sometimes it was fun, people would come over and rap and rhyme and be all silly. But it also annoyed a BUNCH of people sometimes. The teachers and administrators weren't the only ones that would complain.
# Posted on July 3rd 2011 by fiddlelearner
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
"So if I was you, I wwouldn't trust Mr Molloy.
Peter, the son, he is a better judge. he just reckons I am brilliant, which is about right."
Very cool, Bliss.
I'll mention you when I am in the Shaskeen, it's just down the road from me. Some friends of mine play there now and again. And Peter is really a first-rate musician, a fave of mine.
I hope I get to jam with him someday.
# Posted on July 3rd 2011 by Piece
I believe his pub is in Manchester, New Hampshire.? He would know Seamus Heneghan from Killeen, box player, as I have only played twice in Peter's company, along with Seamus.
I have played more often with Matt.
# Posted on July 3rd 2011 by bodhran bliss
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
http://gaatipster.forumotion.net/u70
Pete's dad and me, in session.
# Posted on July 3rd 2011 by bodhran bliss
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
The videos of me in Molloys are poor, as I am playing mandolins and harmonicas and guitars and nonsense instruments like that.
But we all know, the bodhran, the PULSE of Irish music.
# Posted on July 3rd 2011 by bodhran bliss
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
@Jon Kiparsky
I have absolutely no doubt that you know much more then I about sessions and Irish music, I would never attempt to argue the importance of the Bodhran at sessions with you.
I started learning the Bodhran because of my love and passion for percussion instruments. Along the way I fell in love with ITM.
But when I listen to people like Christy Moore or Donnchadh Gough, or Johnny 'Ringo' McDonagh play the Bodhran I find it hard to believe it doesn't belong in ITM.
# Posted on July 3rd 2011 by Thom M
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
Just back from the trenches of Newcastleton and I can say that I definitely stand with Jon on this matter and also with whoever above said that the 98% of people who play the bodhran because it seemed like an easy "in" to sessions give the 2% who know the tunes and play well and tactfully a bad name.
When a melody player makes an arse of himself at a session, you might think, "I wish that guy would shut up" but it only reflects badly on him and not on all fiddle/flute/box/pipes et al players. Most people's session experience dictates that the vast majority of people who walk into a session carrying those sorts of instruments will know what they are doing. They might not. I once afforded a random guy who came into the pub with a flute a friendly welcome and the benefit of the doubt, and he proceeded to play chromatic scales over the tunes, but since most people before (and since) with flutes have a clue, they are still innocent until proven guilty.
On the other hand,most people's experience of bodhrans in sessions dictates that most of them will sound like a sack of potatoes rolling down the stairs (not my metaphor -- I wish), they will be dubious of anyone who walks into a session carrying one. If the person has a clue and knows the tunes, then you'll be pleasantly surprised. Usually, though, you're not.
# Posted on July 3rd 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
Just back from the trenches of Newcastleton and I can say that I definitely stand with Jon on this matter and also with whoever above said that the 98% of people who play the bodhran because it seemed like an easy "in" to sessions give the 2% who know the tunes and play well and tactfully a bad name.
When a melody player makes an arse of himself at a session, you might think, "I wish that guy would shut up" but it only reflects badly on him and not on all fiddle/flute/box/pipes et al players. Most people's session experience dictates that the vast majority of people who walk into a session carrying those sorts of instruments will know what they are doing. They might not. I once afforded a random guy who came into the pub with a flute a friendly welcome and the benefit of the doubt, and he proceeded to play chromatic scales over the tunes, but since most people before (and since) with flutes have a clue, they are still innocent until proven guilty.
On the other hand,most people's experience of bodhrans in sessions dictates that most of them will sound like a sack of potatoes rolling down the stairs (not my metaphor -- I wish), they will be dubious of anyone who walks into a session carrying one. If the person has a clue and knows the tunes, then you'll be pleasantly surprised. Usually, though, you're not.
# Posted on July 3rd 2011 by TheSilverSpear
Most people i know got pipes for pretentious reasons, brought them to sessions, and were.....awful.
Mind you having played with Liam Og, Spillane, Paddy Keenan, and taught Robbie Hannon, I realise that some people can play them.
Just as well I am not judgemental.
I might have missed those players.
# Posted on July 4th 2011 by bodhran bliss
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
"Just as well I am not judgemental."
An excess of judgement does not seem to be one of your many weaknesses. Judgement, in fact, seems to be an element singularly lacking in the composition of your personality.
# Posted on July 4th 2011 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
I also believe straight or bent is up to the player. Find what works best for you.
As a humble player of the bodhran, I will say that I get tired of the ongoing denigration of the bodhran and it's place in a session. There are those of us who WORK at being a good bodhran players and a member of an ensemble, listening to the other members of the session, responding to what they are doing, and generally being sensitive to the dynamic of the group. It took me a year of daily practice before I ever attempted to play in a session. I asked the groups permission to sit in, afterward I made sure that I had broken none of the groups taboos or rules. I WORKED to prove myself an acceptable accompaniment player for the group. And my down time is spent listening to session tunes so that i know the music. I understand that this type of player is not the norm but there are those of us out there who take it seriously, and who work to be good at what we do. I have no problem slagging goat thumpers and other makers and purveyors of noise. But can we try to at least respect the bodhran players who seem to be sensitive enough not to play on slow airs or play with the skin dampened by the hand. Come on guys, some of us are trying!
# Posted on July 4th 2011 by wvbodhran
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
"Come on guys, some of us are trying!"
All of y'all are trying. My patience, that's what you're trying.
"But can we try to at least respect the bodhran players who seem to be sensitive enough not to... play with the skin dampened by the hand"
You mean you let the damned thing ring like a bell when you're playing it? Please, please, please stay at Bodhran Bliss' real Oirish Sessions (tm) and away from anything I'm ever at.
# Posted on July 4th 2011 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
Well, Bliss, you can make whatever judgments you want about pipes and I'll make whatever judgments I want about bodhrans. Fair?
# Posted on July 4th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
And just as well I was the only piper ruining sessions at Newcastleton. Place was overrun with dodgy bodhran players.
# Posted on July 4th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
Well, Bliss, you can make whatever judgments you want about pipes and I'll make whatever judgments I want about bodhrans. Fair?
# Posted on July 4th 2011 by TheSilverSpear
Exactly.
# Posted on July 4th 2011 by bodhran bliss
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
And just as well I was the only piper ruining sessions at Newcastleton. Place was overrun with dodgy bodhran players.
# Posted on July 4th 2011 by TheSilverSpear
That's because they think the bodhran is an easy way in. They are wrong.
maybe they should try pipes but they cost a fortune.
# Posted on July 4th 2011 by bodhran bliss
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
@Jon Kiparsky
I have absolutely no doubt that you know much more then I about sessions and Irish music, I would never attempt to argue the importance of the Bodhran at sessions with you.
I started learning the Bodhran because of my love and passion for percussion instruments. Along the way I fell in love with ITM.
But when I listen to people like Christy Moore or Donnchadh Gough, or Johnny 'Ringo' McDonagh play the Bodhran I find it hard to believe it doesn't belong in ITM.
# Posted on July 3rd 2011 by Thom M
Excellent post but always remember that some people have no wish to spread the music because they, and they alone, are the keepers of the sacred flame.
The Irish Language used to be a bit like that in the North of Ireland as well, those who could speak it preferred looking down their noses at those who were learning the language.
You will find the same attitude in irish music, but rarely with Irish people.
They have learned their lesson.
# Posted on July 4th 2011 by bodhran bliss
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
Okay, apparently I miswrote. The end of my post should have read "do not play on slow airs and DO dampen the skin SO THAT THEY DON'T RING LIKE A BELL."
And please be assured Jon that I will do everything in my power to refrain from playing bodhran at any session at which you are playing. It's a shame. I believe you are probably an excellent musician. Regretfully you seem to have missed the spirit of joy, community, and "Craic" that many of us find in Irish music and adopted instead an elitist attitude that seems completely antithetical to the culture.
# Posted on July 4th 2011 by wvbodhran
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
. I believe you are probably an excellent musician.
# Posted on July 4th 2011 by wvbodhran
It would appear that Jon, like you, is a mere backer.
whether that qualifies as a musician in Jon's rarefied world would be open to question.
# Posted on July 4th 2011 by bodhran bliss
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
>>And please be assured Jon that I will do everything in my power to refrain from playing bodhran at any session at which you are playing
Thanks for that. Do bring your tin whistle or your box or whatever it is you like to play, or sing a song, or any other thing. Just leave the damned drum at home and I'll be happy as a pope in a haberdasher's.
# Posted on July 5th 2011 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
What a bizarre thread! On the one hand, Jon K says “drums are not part of the ITM idiom”. You don’t have to like them, Jon. I don’t especially like the sound of the mandolin, but I wouldn’t dare be so arrogant as to say something like ‘even a "good" bodhran player is just a nuisance and an aggravation’ about the mandolin. You’re welcome to think what you like. You happen to be wrong, but you’re right about other things, though. Somebody who buys a $50 drum and hits a session is not a musician and is, frankly, a pain in the butt. That is very different from a musician who also plays the bodhran and brings both to a session and plays a bit of both. I’m very much of the opinion that you shouldn’t be allowed loose on the streets with a bodhran unless you can play melody on something, or be able to sing, or in some way demonstrate that you can conceptualise “music” in the ITM idiom.
If you don’t know, as a bodhran player, that to have two bashing away at once ain’t pretty, then you’re a poor sort of musician (or percussionist). However, I have experience of 8 fiddlers at the same session all playing at once – not so much Fiddlers Bid as Fiddlers Bad.
You simply cannot argue that bodhran is not idiomatic in ITM. That’s ridiculous. However, it’s no more ridiculous than describing the bodhran as “the main man” in Ireland.
Bliss seems to be indulging in a large slice of “who can piddle the highest”. Either that, or he’s the greatest exponent of irony in the history of the world. I have no wish to join the piddling contest, but I’m an experienced bodhran player (also singer, tin whistle and flute player) and I’ve met plenty of bad musicians and bad percussionists, and played with some very good ones. The problem lies with the player, not the instrument. A lack of intellectual rigour, or the mistaken belief that enthusiasm is a substitute for practice, is always the problem with the musician.
The drum is not “the heartbeat of the session” – ludicrous nonsense. Just some marketing statement to sell cheap drums to tourists in Ireland. The “heartbeat of the session” players are pretty easy to spot, and they make my heart sink when they appear (and I am a bodhran player), but everything tedious and horrible about them is a problem with the person. The difference is that you can’t buy $50 uilleann pipes. If you could, you know there’d be idiots bringing them to sessions with no practice, musicianship, craft, or anything else. The worst session spoiler I ever knew played the accordion.
If I might make a comparison with singing, most people would admit that Christy Moore has spawned a generation of imitators – the “oi wud never go witcha no matter how oi wanted to” mob. Now when some Christy wannabe comes to a session or singaround and breaks out City of Chicago or (aaargh) Ride On I don’t think “Oh that bloomin Christy Moore! What does he think he’s doing letting these eejits sing like him”? The problem lies with the lack of rigour on the part of the singer, and it wouldn’t be fair to blame Christy. A bad bodhran player, assuming they only had the necessary musical ability to play, say, flute badly would spoil a session just as much as a bad bodhran player – only in a different way.
Lastly, speaking as someone who takes music, rhythm, and singing very seriously, the bodhran players who play louder in order to pick up the beat when they lose it should, for a first offence, be skinned alive and rubbed with lemons. This should discourage a second offence
m.d.
# Posted on July 5th 2011 by emmdee
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
You're making a lot of sense there emde, except for:
Drink is traditional in an Irish session, so are drunks who sing like Christy Moor. There are many things that traditionally go with Irish diddley sessions, but their traditionality (if there's such a word) should in no way allow them a free passport to participate.
And you are wrong in saying that somebody is a pain if they buy who a $50 drum and hits a session. They are very easily dealt with ... you just politely ask them to stop. The real pains are the ones who've spent years "studying" the bodrhan. It's much much harder to ask them to stop playing. They get all afronted and stuff.
# Posted on July 5th 2011 by ...
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
ps violins were designed to sound great en mass. It's one of the joys of playing the thing
# Posted on July 5th 2011 by ...
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
I have little time for the argument that "other things suck as well, therefore the bodhran is okay."
Okay, if you don't like songs in sessions, you'll find a lot of takers there. I like a song now and then. The important thing there is to make sure you're part of the session, not simply using the session as your audience. But there are many people who play tunes at our sessions who also can sing a song, and I like to hear them do that.
You might not agree, or you might not like some songs. Fine. Honestly, "Roid On" has never really struck me as much of a song, but whatever. Totally irrelevant to the simple fact that, at a session, a bodhran is at best not very much in the way of the tunes, and more often in the way of the tunes, and it never improves the tunes.
In the same vein, there will be lousy box players, awful flute players, terrible fiddlers, and crap pipers. I've heard examples of all of the above, and that is also totally irrelevant.
Those players can and usually do learn, get better, and contribute to the sessions. The bodhran players, no matter how much they learn, never add anything to the tunes. They might contribute to the session by virtue of their personality, and that's well appreciated when it happens, but their laborious thumping does nothing for the tunes.
It's not a matter of "not liking the bodhran". I like the bodhran just fine - in a pub band, or playing with a single other musician. I used to sit in with a soul band, playing bodhran and tambourine, it was great fun.
In a session, there's no room for it, and it's only a bother.
# Posted on July 5th 2011 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
. However, it’s no more ridiculous than describing the bodhran as “the main man” in Ireland.
# Posted on July 5th 2011 by emmdee
I already know it is ridiculous, I was just joining in with Jon. But at least i know it is ridiculous.
And my contribution is not irony, I call it satire, which may have died when they gave the peace prize to Henry Kissinger.
As for Jon being arrogant, never, he is just a certain type of American Irish musician who swallowed the whole nonsense about rules and the purity of the tradition, and that type are not arrogant, just always right.
As for Christy, not a great singer or musician but to see him live in his heyday....pure charisma.
All I ever argue is a simple point. Bad fiddle player is.....bad. Bad bodhran player is.....bad. Bad piper is.....bad.
Any bad player can ruin a session. npot just a bodhran.
I admit it is easier to get a bodhran to join in because it LOOKS easy. Obviously it is not.
Those people would be better getting a bouzouki or something and noodling in the background.........
# Posted on July 5th 2011 by bodhran bliss
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
Fair comment, Llig. Things I've seen in ITM/Scottish music sessions that have no idiomatic right to be there IMO include
Trombone
Bass and Alto Sax
Djembe
Hungarian pipes
Washboard
Cajon
Bodhran (and probably bones) are part of the tradition. Even if you don't like that, there ain't much you can do. If we're in a session together and you ask an obviously incompetent bodhran player to shut the hell up, you'll get no complaints fae me. But the same'd have to apply to a rotten fiddler...
m.d.
# Posted on July 5th 2011 by emmdee
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
You missed the point: yes, bodhran (and probably bones) are part of the tradition. But so what, it doesn't mean I have to tolerate them.
If I politely asked a really dreadful fiddle player to stop, I may well get no complaints from you. But what would you say if I politely asked you to stop?
# Posted on July 5th 2011 by ...
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
In a session, there's no room for it, and it's only a bother.
# Posted on July 5th 2011 by Jon Kiparsky
Well said sir, and you are entitled to your opinion.
But please allow Sean O'Riada, Tommy Peoples, Matt Molloy, Paddy Keenan, Liam Og O'Flynn, Paddy Moloney, Sean Keane, Davy spillane, Michael McGoldrick, Eileen Ivers, Dermie Diamond, Paddy glackin, Frankie Gavin, me, and many, many others to politely disagree. I have enjoyed "sessions" with them all (bar Sean O'Riada) and they have enjoyed sessions with me.
Surely we are entitled to our opinion as well?
# Posted on July 5th 2011 by bodhran bliss
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
"Surely we are entitled to our opinion as well?"
You're entitled to your opinion. It's wrong, but you're entitled to it. They're entitled to theirs, but I have no reason to suppose that your estimation of their opinion is an accurate one. You do have a dog in the fight, after all.
# Posted on July 5th 2011 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
one thing about being a bad, but experienced musician, is most of us know when we're ruining something. I know when i'm not playing at the session as well as i was playing at home, and i know when to stop. If i'm screwing up a tune, i drop out. If i'm playing a terrible solo, i cut it short. I just need to learn what i'm not ready to play yet. I also need to learn that we're all playing together, not performing, so there should be no pressure.
# Posted on July 5th 2011 by fiddlelearner
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
Well, since you asked the question...
I think I know you, and we used to play the odd session in Bell's together - 10 years or more ago, and I don't think you'd have the neck to ask me to stop, politely or otherwise. Your internet persona's not the same as being face to face in the pub. If you did, I'd probably tell you to **** off. There was a nasty undercurrent at Bell's in the late 90s/early 00s of certain people intimidating folks out of the session. You might have been part of that... I dunno. I certainly would not take kindly to anyone, whether a nonentity or a household name asking me to stop playing bodhran in a session. Since I'd give you no musical reason beyond prejudice at the instrument to do it, you'd get short shrift fae me. I think, internet bravado aside, that you and I both know the difference between a good person to have in a session and a bad one.
m.d.
# Posted on July 5th 2011 by emmdee
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
So what you're saying is, you have no problem when someone else is asked to stop, but if it's you, well, you're different. A little special, maybe.
Did someone say something about "arrogant"?
"I'd give you no musical reason beyond prejudice at the instrument to do it"
Oh, yes, I guess someone did mention "arrogant". How on earth would you know - you're sitting on the wrong end of the bodhran to judge, aren't you?
# Posted on July 5th 2011 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
Jon, don't be an ass. You simply can't say "No bodhrans". It's not even as if you're arguing against the thin end of the wedge. They are a part of the tradition. That's it.
but I'm a proper considerate, respectful, serious minded multi-instrumentalist and singer who happens to accept the bodhran in the tradition and play it. You don't play it? Fine. You don't like it? Live with it. But don't even think about intimidating anyone, be it John Joe Kelly or John Joe Numskull out of a session because you'd be well and truly in the moral wrong.
I have no problem if some random punter turns up and starts spoiling - I'll even have a quiet word myself. I'm not some punter, though. I mean, obviously I'm not Bliss with his stellar array of admirers
You're in a serious minority, I'm afraid. Looks like just you and Llig, and I really doubt you'd have the bottle to speak up either. Maybe if you were with a bunch of friends...
I think Bliss has been at best graceless and, at worst, arrogant in some of his comments. For me to say "I'm a good player" isn't arrogant. For you to say "no bodhrans" isn't just arrogant - it's deluded.
"you're sitting on the wrong end of the bodhran to judge, aren't you?"
Your role ain't to judge any other player or any other instrument, BTW. I mean, who are you, when all's said and done? I know who I am and what I've "done", and I know what Bliss claims to have "done" even though I don't know who he is (I haven't watched his video clip yet, but I'm gonna), but who are you, what have you "done", and what makes you think you're a session judge? Are you just some erudite academic non player with internet access, or a really gifted amateur, or a stellar pro-musician who's taught and performed widely and influenced a generation of players?
Why am I even asking? It's not like I really care.
m.d.
# Posted on July 5th 2011 by emmdee
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
"Surely we are entitled to our opinion as well?"
You're entitled to your opinion. It's wrong
Posted on July 5th 2011 by Jon Kiparsky
An opinion....wrong?????
I think Raphael Nadal is the best tennis player in the world, in my opinion.
Is that "wrong" or just different from someone else's opinion?
You would need to be really arrogant or summat to think that your opinions were right.
Tiger woods best golfer in the world anyone?
# Posted on July 5th 2011 by bodhran bliss
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
Jon, don't be an ass.
# Posted on July 5th 2011 by emmdee
You could be asking a lot
# Posted on July 5th 2011 by bodhran bliss
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
I think Bliss has been at best graceless and, at worst, arrogant in some of his comments.
# Posted on July 5th 2011 by emmdee
In N.Ireland it is known as extracting the urine.
But joking aside, I HAVE played with all those I mentioned, no complaints. I can join the Chieftains in the morning, Kevin is a better singer I admit, but that is just on a humble bodhran.
And as you say, it is part of the tradition.
# Posted on July 5th 2011 by bodhran bliss
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
Like I say - it's fine when someone else is asked to put up their instrument, but when it's even suggested that someone might "have a word" with you, you get a little shirty, don't you?
The point is not that I'm going to ask anyone to stop if they come in some night. I'm not. It's not my place to do that. There's a guy who gets paid to keep it sweet, and I'm not out to make life tricky for him. I'm just trying to let you and your goat-thwacking buddies know what's really going on when you're not there: we're having more fun and hoping you don't turn up.
Really, you might hear someone say something like "it's too bad there wasn't a fiddle tonight" or "It would have been nice to have a whistler", but I have never, even once, heard anyone say "it's a shame there wasn't a bodhran."
# Posted on July 5th 2011 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
I'm from N Ireland as well, Bliss. North Antrim. Extract away! I suspected you were indulging in irony of the ironiest. Nobody could've said the things you said without tongue firmly in cheek.
Where's the link to the vid that Jon thinks u suck in? I'd like to make up my own mind.
Funny, Jon made some comments on the Ipads at sessions thread with which I wholeheartedly agree, yet we couldn't be more divergent over this. I think it'll boil down to "yes it is", "no it isn't", "yes it is", "no it isn't", "yes it is", "no it isn't" and we'll just have to let it go.
m.d.
# Posted on July 5th 2011 by emmdee
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
"I can join the Chieftains in the morning,"
Me too, on the condition I'm gone by lunchtime.
# Posted on July 5th 2011 by Bren
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
Your qualification to judge most definitely not clarified at all, Jon. Well, forget it.
m.d.
# Posted on July 5th 2011 by emmdee
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
Here's a radical idea. This whole thread began because someone had a question on bodhran technique. Why not let bodhran players answer the question? I know there's seems to be a lot of joy in bodhran bashing but we have gotten so far off topic here that it is absurd.
I would not begin to answer questions on mandolin, box, or pipes because I don't play those particular instruments. If the question is "should I bring my drum to a session," or "how many bodhran players does it take to screw in a lightbulb?" then I think it's open season. We asked for it. But when some poor, unsuspecting soul presumes to ask a question so that they can learn I think it is in the worst possible taste to descend in to the bodhran bashing that this particular thread has succumbed to.
# Posted on July 5th 2011 by wvbodhran
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
I agree, wvbodhran. The correct way IMO is for the wrist to be in a relaxed neutral position - thus "straight" wrist would be my choice.
Emmdee can answer for himself, but as someone who has listened to him play bodhran (and flute, whistle, uilleann pipes) and sing, both in session and on stage. I would give his opinion due consideration.
# Posted on July 5th 2011 by BigDavy
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
"An opinion....wrong?????"
In Boston, we call that "taking the píss."
"Well, forget it. "
It's well forgotten.
# Posted on July 5th 2011 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
Ah sure its the same few eejits spewing bile from their high horse, its a regular occurrence here, I guess they just need to put other folk down to make them selves feel good and Bodhrán players are a perennial favourite to pick on.
Great session last night, some lovely Bodhrán playing around town this year. The session today was blessed by a player who at one point put the drum down and proceeded to blast out a stunning set of tunes on the flute! Class .
Of course anyone with any breadth of experience knows full well that the drum and backers in general can be an essential addition to a session, certainly in loud boisterous sessions with rowdy crowds. So by slagging off the instrument in general they actually just demonstrate their ignorance and it reflects more on the slagger than the slagee....
Its funny , Id like to see these guys come to Clare and start bitching about the bodhran or bones! somehow I dont see it though! Its easy to do so safe behind a keyboard, easy to put people down, easy to bully and victimise when their are next to no repercussions. Its a shame some people get off on that kind of behaviour but thats life, dont feed them I suppose but at the same time its best not to let that kind of nonsense stand unchallenged because people might actually start to believe that what they say has any real basis . It doesnt.
They are entitled to their opinions and we are entitled to regard those opinions with disdain and thats what those opinions deserve.
Now I m not going to engage these ****** in conversation, just expressing my opinion . bye
# Posted on July 5th 2011 by piobagusfidil
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
Thank you for engaging in the conversation sir. And we can agree that the bodhran certainly does have its place in loud boisterous sessions with rowdy crowds. For as we know, rowdy crowds love the thing.
# Posted on July 5th 2011 by ...
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
m.d., I hope you'll find that anyone who does know me will vouch for my personality here to be no different from my "meat space" personality, so maybe you don't know me.
There's a broader question here about how people behave in sessions. Most people in sessions consider themselves guests and repress feelings they have about their fellow guests because society works that way. I'm like that in most sessions, I'm no different from most people. So I often find myself in a session with bodhrans ... so at the very least, I know what I'm talking about.
But you said something earlier which made me think about this:
"I really doubt you'd have the bottle to speak. Maybe if you were with a bunch of friends..."
I think this really is what it's about. If I'm in he pub playing tunes with a bunch of friends, all of whom have a dislike for the bodhran and all of whom know that all of us have a dislike for the bodhran, then one of us, probably the person you are closest to, will ask you politely to stop. In fact, practically speaking, when you first come in and ask politely if you can play (which polite people always do, no matter what instrument) you will be politely given the reply, "No".
So am I going to be hit now with a cascade of people calling me a prejudiced, elitist and arrogant non-traditionalist? Probably.
But ask yourself this, would you rather play in a session with a load of people you hardly know and repress your dislikes for the sake of conforming to an irritating (but necessary) social grace? Or would you rather play with like minded friends?
# Posted on July 6th 2011 by ...
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
In the USA we are told by a variety of laws and regulations not to engage in discrimination based on sex, race, religion, creed, national origin, and most recently sexual orientation. So far, no bodhran players have made the list for legal protection.
# Posted on July 6th 2011 by AlBrown
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
"The session today was blessed by a player who at one point put the drum down."
Rare indeed. Your bodhran players do indeed come up to a high standard. I yearn to see such a thing some day.
# Posted on July 6th 2011 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
"I can join the Chieftains in the morning,"
Me too, on the condition I'm gone by lunchtime.
# Posted on July 5th 2011 by Bren
I suspect that would be about right in your case.
A mandolin? Not required in the chieftains.
# Posted on July 6th 2011 by bodhran bliss
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
. I'm just trying to let you and your goat-thwacking buddies know what's really going on when you're not there: we're having more fun and hoping you don't turn up.
Really, you might hear someone say something like "it's too bad there wasn't a fiddle tonight" or "It would have been nice to have a whistler", but I have never, even once, heard anyone say "it's a shame there wasn't a bodhran."
# Posted on July 5th 2011 by Jon Kiparsky
You are even getting the jargon right now, "Goat thwacking" and all that.
Ye could be a full scale trendy yet. Bought a tankard yet have ye.
As for never having heard someone say "I wish there was a bodhran" well at least I know ye haven't been in a session with Molloy, Keenan, O'Flynn, or a few others I know.
maybe ye should go to a better class of session.
# Posted on July 6th 2011 by bodhran bliss
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
Where's the link to the vid that Jon thinks u suck in? I'd like to make up my own mind.
# Posted on July 5th 2011 by emmdee
From North Antrim, I maybe even know ye. I do know Paul McAulay who plays in "The House of McDonnell" in Ballycastle, and injdeed I have played there myself, notably at my brothers funeral as he was living in Ballycastle.
A photo of me. The one on the bodhran. The other bloke is some flute player who lives in Westport. He owns a pub and has photos of himself on the walls with famous musicians like Van the ma, Mick Jagger and me.
The infamous Youtube link........hhhhmmmmmmm.
Need loads of excuses. a dodgy stick with a weight falling out of it, (which was actually ripping the drum i discovered later), sitting on the terraces at a football game, cramped, extracting the urine,...........playing the side which I NEVER do......showing off to the assembled crowd of adoring fans....looking for the banjo player....wondering if I should play the banjo, which I later did, .........terms and conditions were not good.
And then after two minutes I adjust my pose and begin to play ....just a bit.
well at a level acceptable to Molloy, O'Flynn and co, but not to one of the USA's finest.......bouzouki (sic) players.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OcEwPt0bQZs
# Posted on July 6th 2011 by bodhran bliss
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
http://gaatipster.forumotion.net/u70
Sorry Emmdee, I forgot the photo.
remember I am the one on the drum, not the oul lad on flute.
# Posted on July 6th 2011 by bodhran bliss
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
“There's a broader question here about how people behave in sessions. Most people in sessions consider themselves guests and repress feelings they have about their fellow guests because society works that way. I'm like that in most sessions, I'm no different from most people. So I often find myself in a session with bodhrans ... so at the very least, I know what I'm talking about.”
Oh, poor you. Do you get headaches, since you spend so much of your time looking down your nose at people?
”If I'm in the pub playing tunes with a bunch of friends, all of whom have a dislike for the bodhran and all of whom know that all of us have a dislike for the bodhran, then one of us, probably the person you are closest to, will ask you politely to stop. In fact, practically speaking, when you first come in and ask politely if you can play (which polite people always do, no matter what instrument) you will be politely given the reply, "No".
So am I going to be hit now with a cascade of people calling me a prejudiced, elitist and arrogant non-traditionalist? Probably.”
You are by me, and rightly so. If you want to play in a little clique of hate-filled begrudgers, then you do that in the comfort of your home. If you’re regulars in a session that’s understood to be “open” rather than “gig by some blokes” then I’m afraid that normal session rules apply. That means no intimidation, counterbalanced, naturally, by the understanding that all participants must have some level of proficiency above “basic”. I don’t believe that sessions are the proper place to learn the rudiments of any instrument any more than I expect you do. I suspect we agree on a lot more than we would disagree on about session behaviour and standards. I certainly hope so.
”But ask yourself this, would you rather play in a session with a load of people you hardly know and repress your dislikes for the sake of conforming to an irritating (but necessary) social grace? Or would you rather play with like minded friends?”
Oh, the former every time. Because I’ve been around just long enough to know that there’s a big difference between being a good musician and a good human being. If it’s you and your “like minded friends” then stick to private kitchen ceilis with no bodhrans and feel free to indulge in any other prejudices you like whilst you’re doing it. No hornpipes, maybe? Or no tunes in Bminor? Or no women? Whatever… I’d rather spend an evening with ‘second rate musicians’ who understand the broader session dynamic and can have the crack than a few stuffy pillocks who, though they may be top-class players, invariably turn out to be no fun. Like I said in a previous post, you and I both know the difference between someone likely to improve a session with their presence, and someone who’s going to spoil it. The difference is that, for you, the second category includes every bodhran player. I find that baffling.
Hey, Jon. Way to back down there, fella. All the way from “bluster, bluster bluster” to “The point is not that I'm going to ask anyone to stop if they come in some night. I'm not. It's not my place to do that. There's a guy who gets paid to keep it sweet, and I'm not out to make life tricky for him.”
Do you know what a poltroon is?
“I'm just trying to let you and your goat-thwacking buddies know what's really going on when you're not there: we're having more fun and hoping you don't turn up.”
Are you, like, eight years old? Honestly, what a precious little child you must be. You’d be better off stopping home, too, cos I don’t reckon there’s an army of fans and admirers clamouring to session with you.
Wvbodhran makes a good point. Next time someone asks for tips to improve their embouchure, all of us bodhran players should spring out with comments on stick length, overuse of rim shots, and how flutes only get in the way of the drummers. No, wait. We shouldn’t do that. That would be offering irrelevant opinions that have nothing to do with the question that was asked.
# Posted on July 6th 2011 by emmdee
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
I've seen bodhran players in certain pubs in Edinburgh on certain nights of the week, and they played all night in the session, and as far as I could tell, did not get told to stop playing. Just sayin'...
# Posted on July 6th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
I've seen bodhran players in certain pubs in Edinburgh on certain nights of the week, and they played all night in the session, and as far as I could tell, did not get told to stop playing. Just sayin'...
# Posted on July 6th 2011 by TheSilverSpear
Including that little old dear of a woman?
By the way forgot to add in that post of mine ages ago about pipers, when I said I taught Robbie Hannon? I did indeed.
History!!!
# Posted on July 6th 2011 by bodhran bliss
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
By the way fans the thread below this one, about slow airs, gives a more insightful view of my good self.
I LURVE slow airs.
# Posted on July 6th 2011 by bodhran bliss
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
Audrey died a few months ago. Towards the end I doubt she could have remembered ten minutes later if she'd been told to stop. She was living in her own happy little world where everybody loved the bodhran and the earth was her ashtray.
I just kinda pretended I was playing in a thunderstorm.
# Posted on July 6th 2011 by Jack Campin
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
"Hey, Jon. Way to back down there, fella"
Seriously? No, I don't physically eject bodhran players from the sessions I play at. That would be rude, almost as rude as sitting down and banging on a drum while people are trying to play music together. What's that got to do with anything?
# Posted on July 6th 2011 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
The most amazing sight I've seen for wee while was in Newcastleton where this wee man with a red coat with large polka dots, floral boots and God know's what else and sporting a minute tufty beard was merrily thumping away on the back of a fiddle with a bodhran stick..
Somebody asked him for a loan of his fiddle(not me) in a drunken moment and found that it was well out of tune but couldn't be heard, in any case, as there was no rosin on the bow!
This was a perfect example of someone who should have been physically ejected although most of us did their best to ignore him.
# Posted on July 6th 2011 by Johnny Jay
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
My sources tell me the guy is a known character around the Scottish festival scene and has been for years. Mad as a box of frogs.
He wandered into the upstairs bit of the Grapes, dressed as John describes above, and holding a stuffed banana -- a soft toy -- against his head as if it were a telephone. Then he wandered out again.
# Posted on July 6th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
I'll make it easy for you, Jon.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/poltroon
You love to bully those who have the temerity to play a drum, but you back down pretty darn fast when challenged. "Not my place", indeed. You claim authority to judge musicianship, but you can't back it up. You just sit at your keyboard, talking childish rubbish and then backing down. You love dishing it out, but you can't take it. Computer life ain't real life. You probably love talking about bodhran players and any other musicians you don't like behind their backs, because you're a passive-aggressive waste of space. You wouldn't have the nerve to do anything other than fume if I showed up with my drum, flute, and whistles, not because to do otherwise would be 'rude', but because you haven't go the social grace to interact in siutations that make you uncomfortable. Even if you're a red-hot player, which I doubt, I expect you stick to the same small circle of friends and sessions because everyone else has you well worked out by now. An insular bore and a musical nonentity.
Like I said. If you want to play in a clique, stay out of pub sessions. They obviously ain't for you, since they'll let just anyone in. While you're at it, please accept my invitation to refrain from contributing anything to any thread on the subject of bodhrans. Since you reject them totally, you can't offer anything of value to the discussion. Therefore, any contribution you make is snide bullying. I don't wanna hear it, and no other bodhran player wants to hear it.
# Posted on July 6th 2011 by emmdee
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
"Audrey died a few months ago. Towards the end I doubt she could have remembered ten minutes later if she'd been told to stop. She was living in her own happy little world where everybody loved the bodhran and the earth was her ashtray.
I just kinda pretended I was playing in a thunderstorm." Jack Campin
Thing about Audrey Jack is that she actually had a fairly good memory for faces, didn't see her a year or so before she died. Over the years that I've popped into Bells she would remind me of the last time I'd been in. Sometimes a couple of years apart. Another old edinburgh character gone off to a better place.
The important thing that I keep in mind is that it's the folk like Audrey, musical ability aside, that should remind us sessions in a place like edinburgh don't belong to the individual. I remember talking to an old fellow about the scene in edinburgh some years ago, at the Green Tree not long before it closed it's doors. His take was quite astute as it turns out;
"it's not the scene that changes in this town son, only the people".
We're all just passing through.
# Posted on July 6th 2011 by Solidmahog
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
Yes, I was thinking of Audrey when I wrote that, but hazily remember seeing one or two other bodhran players on the odd occasion there, playing happily away, not getting told to stop.
# Posted on July 6th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
"Yes, I was thinking of Audrey when I wrote that, but hazily remember seeing one or two other bodhran players on the odd occasion there, playing happily away, not getting told to stop." TheSilverSpear
Yes, there are a few others as well. I met a fellow a few weeks ago, plays the drum and lives away now, we've pals in common. He was on the scene there in the late 80's early 90's and still good pals with many who're still knocking around that scene today. Somehow I couldn't see him taking a fikr off that well, lol. But then as emmdee has pointed out it's unlikely that it would be tendered in the first place.
Say what you like online, sticks and stones and all that, in the boozer it's a very different dynamic ;~)
Live and let live I say...........
# Posted on July 6th 2011 by Solidmahog
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
Obviously you haven't been paying attention. I've played the bodhran since about 1992. It's made me as much money as any instrument I play, between teaching and gigs.
I think they're fine in a pub band, or when playing with one, maybe two other people. But in a session, in a bar, when you have half a dozen people playing actual instruments, there's no room for the bodhran.
As for the rest of your twaddle:
"You claim authority to judge musicianship, but you can't back it up."
I do? When? I do say that bongo bliss's little video shows a distinct lack of excellence, true, but that hardly takes a lot of seeing. The fact that he can't keep up with himself for thirty seconds at a time gives it away.
"You love to bully those who have the temerity to play a drum, but you back down pretty darn fast when challenged."
I do? I'm willing to tell you the truth about your instrument, and I'll say it again: I have never yet found anyone who actually wants to hear it in a session.
"You know what this session needs? A bodhran." I've never heard anyone say anything like that. Why? Because what this session doesn't need is a bodhran - any more than it needs a tradtional Irish cowbell or a traditional Irish horn section.
I'll tolerate it, like I'll tolerate someone yapping on their cell phone in a coffee shop when I'm trying to read a book or have a conversation, because it's easiest all around to let some things go. That doesn't mean it's not a damned nuisance to have someone yapping away on their chatterbox three feet from you, and it doesn't make the bodhran a good thing, it's just a matter of live and let live.
But if you want to know the truth, notice that the nicest thing any non-bodhran player has said about the drum in this thread has been "some drummers don't get told to stop". Of course they don't. And some of the drummers are even welcome - for their personalities, for who they are. But if you take the drum itself - nobody wants to hear the thing. They tolerate it.
"You love dishing it out, but you can't take it."
Now you're just spouting cliches because you can't think of anything sensible to say. What on earth is that supposed to mean in this conversation?
I suppose you could try making fun of box players and see if I come off like a whiny little bitch about it the way the drummers do, but I think you'd find that I have more jokes about the box than you do.
"You probably love talking about bodhran players and any other musicians you don't like behind their backs, because you're a passive-aggressive waste of space"
I don't talk about musicians I don't like, because I don't know any musicians I don't like. Hell, I don't even know any bodhran players I don't like. I just don't like the playing of the bodhran. It's a wretched misery, it's a cry for help, it's a sickness and an affliction, but the people who play the thing are often perfectly nice people - another reason I don't go after them with a can of mace and a tire iron when they come in the door, as you seem to think I ought to do.
"You wouldn't have the nerve to do anything other than fume if I showed up with my drum, flute, and whistles, not because to do otherwise would be 'rude', but because you haven't go the social grace to interact in siutations that make you uncomfortable."
If you turned up with instruments, you'd be more than welcome. If you turned up with the drum, you'd be welcome. The drum, we put up with, because, as you say:
"Computer life ain't real life"
And it's better to just get along with the people around you than to get into an argument with someone and waste half an hour yelling and finally get started playing in a bad humor and have a lousy time. I'm pretty good at enjoying myself. Sometimes I have to stop playing and give the drummer a hint about the beat, and I can even do that while smiling. None of that changes the simple fact, which I've said often enough that I think even Bliss has got it by now: nobody actually wants to hear the bodhran. Nobody wakes up in the morning saying "gosh, I hope there's a couple of tossers with their salad bowls of doom at the session tonight".
Are you starting to get it? I know, you're a drummer, you're a little slow, but I'm reasonably patient.
"While you're at it, please accept my invitation to refrain from contributing anything to any thread on the subject of bodhrans. "
Thank you for your kind invitation. I'll give it all the consideration it deserves.
"Since you reject them totally, you can't offer anything of value to the discussion. "
As I said, I've played a lot of bodhran, and I've made a lot of money playing the bodhran. It's entirely possible I've played the bodhran longer than you have, and it's possible I play it better than you do. It's very likely I've taught more people to play the thing than you have.
Please try to pay attention.
"Even if you're a red-hot player, which I doubt,"
You're right to doubt it. I'm not. I'm good enough to enjoy playing with some good players, and good enough that they enjoy playing with me. Nothing special, though, and I've got a lot to learn. One reason I gave up the bodhran, as it happens - after the second month of playing, there's really nothing more to learn.
"If you want to play in a clique, stay out of pub sessions."
Okay, if I ever want to play in a clique, I'll stay out of pub sessions. I don't see why I'd want to do that, but it's good advice.
"They obviously ain't for you, since they'll let just anyone in."
Just now, you were saying what a jerk I was for letting just anyone in, weren't you? Come on, buddy, keep your story straight.
"Therefore, any contribution you make is snide bullying"
Snide? Okay, I'll own that. I can do snide. Welcome to the internet. Snide comes with the territory. Bullying? Well, if I were able to push anyone around on the internet, I wouldn't, any more than I do in real life, so I don't see where you get "bullying" from, but since we're unlikely ever to meet, you can hold on to that if it helps you sleep better at night.
"I don't wanna hear it, and no other bodhran player wants to hear it"
I know you don't want to hear it. Truth stings a little going in, but it's for your own good in the long run.
So there you go. I hope that clears up some of your misconceptions, but you're a drummer, so it's unlikely. Do try to relax, though, it can't be good for you to get this worked up.
# Posted on July 6th 2011 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
“I just don't like the playing of the bodhran. It's a wretched misery, it's a cry for help, it's a sickness and an affliction, but the people who play the thing are often perfectly nice people”. Yet…
“As I said, I've played a lot of bodhran, and I've made a lot of money playing the bodhran”.
The strange case of Doctor Kiparsky and Mr Hyde? Either you play the thing and make reasonable contributions when the subject is raised, or you hate the thing and you keep your nose out. Whichever, you should stop flaming every poor sod who mentions them.
“One reason I gave up the bodhran, as it happens - after the second month of playing, there's really nothing more to learn.”
Oh, too right! Talk about basic... I had one tin whistle lesson. It went “blow in one end and move your fingers about”. I stopped going after that, cos I knew I’d nothing more to learn.
You arse.
# Posted on July 6th 2011 by emmdee
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
"Either you play the thing and make reasonable contributions when the subject is raised, or you hate the thing and you keep your nose out"
Okay, one more time again:
I play the thing, or used to. I like the thing. I don't like hearing it in a session, because it's irrelevant at best and an obstruction at worst. I'd play a gig on the bodhran again without hesitation, if the money was right, but there's no point in playing it at a session.
Do work at it a bit more, you'll get hold of it sooner or later.
You're a bit thick, but I have faith in you.
# Posted on July 6th 2011 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
I think they're fine in a pub band, or when playing with one, maybe two other people. But in a session, in a bar, when you have half a dozen people playing actual instruments, there's no room for the bodhran.
# Posted on July 6th 2011 by Jon Kiparsky
Finally agree.
With about six OTHER musicians ye need at least two bodhrans, one at each end of the session, just in case some idiot can't hear it and mucks up the timing.
# Posted on July 6th 2011 by bodhran bliss
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
One reason I gave up the bodhran, as it happens - after the second month of playing, there's really nothing more to learn.
# Posted on July 6th 2011 by Jon Kiparsky
Aaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrgggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Now we know.
Someone who thought it would be easy to play the drum, gave it all of two months, probably brought it to sessions, annoyed people, was told to get out until he learned how to play it, and holds a grudge against.....the instrument.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Were you aware you posted this???? Hoist by your own petard or......
You have been wumming all along.
dear me. Some people
# Posted on July 6th 2011 by bodhran bliss
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
But if you take the drum itself - nobody wants to hear the thing. They tolerate it.
Posted on July 6th 2011 by Jon Kiparsky
Sean O'Riada was a nobody.
Well he must have been. Jon Kirsparsky and Hutch said so.
# Posted on July 6th 2011 by bodhran bliss
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
And......
Get six melody players together, all playing a tune, all stamping their collective feet. Sure ye will never hear anything except BOOM BOOM BOOM BOOM of the stamping feet.
That is why Allah gave us.......bodhrans.
To keep the eejits right.
# Posted on July 6th 2011 by bodhran bliss
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
"bodhran lesson (note the singular) costs $2,000.
that's because there only is one bodhran lesson"
"eejit", that's the word, isn't it?
# Posted on July 6th 2011 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
"Do work at it a bit more, you'll get hold of it sooner or later.
You're a bit thick, but I have faith in you"
An empty vessel makes the most noise, Jon (apart from a bodhran, natch).
Enjoy the fresh air on Arse Island, population - YOU.
# Posted on July 6th 2011 by emmdee
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
Jon,
Stop, you will be in Australia soon. Digging that is.
Now at some stage I was nearly going to show some sympathy because i guess there are many in the good old US of A who think they are Irish, want to join in, get a bodhran, master it in a very short time and then proceed to go round ruining sessions.
However, and there is no easy way of saying this, YOU ARE ONE OF THEM.
Two months??????? yes, I learnt the pipes in tewo months which is the reason I do NOT play them at sessions.
You also make much talk about "earning money" playing the bodhran. maybe in the US of A they measure thingsthat way but young people at work talk about someone called Robbie Williams who makes MILLIONS from music but can't play anything.
Every sunday in life I play a guitar (among other things) and sing and earn money but I am not very good at it, indeed I am AWFUL at it by any reasonabl;e musical standard, but the people in the pub insist.
As for bodhran lessons, yes one could coin [people into learning 754 sounds or whatever but I believe that the ONLY bodhran lesson is showing people how to use the playing hand. That is turning it towards the drum, using one knuckle, and trying to get a simple rhythm going. ANY rhythm.
if you can do that keep doing it IN THE HOUSE for about 6 months, and then if you want, get a stick and use it as an extension of the finger with the knuckle on it.
After that, it is like ANY instrument, practice. Preferably in the HOUSE.
You do not master ANY instrument, even a shaky egg, in two months.
On a lighter note we saw a shaky egg player at the Willie week one year and he was unbelievably good. Must have practiced for years.
Only in Clare
# Posted on July 6th 2011 by bodhran bliss
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
All of the above to.......music. CDS, iplayers, pods, lps, eps, whatever.
# Posted on July 6th 2011 by bodhran bliss
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
There's a certain rage that I find unhelpful from a lot of bodhran players when they try to defend themselves.
# Posted on July 6th 2011 by ...
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
Bliss, you're trying too hard. You've agreed with me that there's essentially nothing to know about the bodhran, and you can't bear the thought that we're both saying the same thing.
Cope with it. There's nothing to know about playing the bodhran. If you're not entirely stupid, you know the whole of it in no time. Six months? Okay, if you're a bit slow, you can take six months at it. I think I can take anyone who wants to play, and they'll play perfectly well after two months, but sure, you can have six months to practice if you like.
I don't see that it makes much difference, two months or six months - the point is, there's not a lot to know, as you yourself have said, unnprompted by me.
# Posted on July 6th 2011 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
Thats the kind of attitude that gets bodhran players a bad name, ''it just takes 6 months to learn' no wonder he got slagged for being a crap player! ..or was that 2 months? give it a rest!! jon obviously doesnt have a clue.
I mean how hard can it be? its only got 8 holes? ... its only a bit of wood and leather... hmmm.
sure the piano is just a crap instrument I reckon, its easy to play but ...I just don't like the playing of the piano, It's a wretched misery, it's a cry for help, it's a sickness and an affliction, but the people who play the thing are often perfectly nice people .... yes jon say no more I think we get the picture....
It only takes 10 min to learn to play the whistle, cover holes and blow, wiggle yr fingers about and there ye go.... of course to get a few tunes takes a wee biteen longer and to get really good....
Same with any instrument, the basics can often be attained within a few months but to be able to play an instrument well, with style, panache , verve, lift and drive.... doesnt come quite so easily! Though of course there are the gifted few who through perseverance and dedication and lots of practice can get to a reasonable standard within a few years.
For anyone to think it takes a few months to be able to play an instrument indicates that perhaps their standards are not too high.... I mean jeez! every tune has its own distinctive rhythmical patterns and phrasing, a good drummer will know many tunes and their patterns and be able to extemporise using their understanding and experience . I mean do these munchkins not realise how intricate and deep the field of percussion is? its like someone completely clueless about the fiddle going on about how easy it is and how it only takes a few months to learn to play... anyone who actually can play knows they are talking out of their arse. Jon going on about how little their is within bodhrán playing just demonstrates how little he knows. yes it might well only have taken him 2 months to learn to play, just as it took BB 2 months to learn to pipe
jeez look at the piano, just push the keys and a sound comes out... easy..ye can even play with yr elbows and for-arms crash tinkle thud... but for some reason the guys at the sesh were not impressed with my keyboard backing cant figure out why,
# Posted on July 7th 2011 by piobagusfidil
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
You've agreed with me that there's essentially nothing to know about the bodhran, and you can't bear the thought that we're both saying the same thing.
# Posted on July 6th 2011 by Jon Kiparsky
Jon, being a failed bodhran player is OK, the world is full of them, but a failed reader?
There is not much to a tin whistle, a bit of tin with 6 holes but devilish difficult to play at a session after two months!!!!!
Some people complicate the bodran, with all this nonsense about the hand at the back, different sounds, tuning it, and all that.
But it still takes lots of practice to play properly.
It has a bad name because eejits like you go out to the pub after two months thinking you know what you are doing.
So, to conclude, it has a bad name because of you and countless others, who are too lazy to learn to play it, properly.
Much easier to noodle on a bouzouki or guitar or something.
Now once you mentioned you had mastered the drum after two months, you lost the little credibility I was affording you.
No harm done. Stick to the zouk or whatever and enjoy yourself.
# Posted on July 7th 2011 by bodhran bliss
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
. yes jon say no more I think we get the picture....
# Posted on July 7th 2011 by piobagusfidil
Come on now Pipe and Fiddle, don't hold back.
Tell us what you really think?
# Posted on July 7th 2011 by bodhran bliss
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
"Now once you mentioned you had mastered the drum after two months, you lost the little credibility I was affording you."
Well, I suppose I'm crushed now. I was counting on that to see me through the hard times. Well, I guess I'll go cry myself to sleep now.
# Posted on July 7th 2011 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
I can't imagine two people with more different debating styles than Jon K and bodhran bliss--one of the things that makes these discussions so interesting to watch. It is like id versus superego, and I will let you figure out who plays what role...
# Posted on July 7th 2011 by AlBrown
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
"Obviously you haven't been paying attention. I've played the bodhran since about 1992. It's made me as much money as any instrument I play, between teaching and gigs. "
"One reason I gave up the bodhran, as it happens - after the second month of playing, there's really nothing more to learn. "
So did you play the damn thing since 92 or only two months?
# Posted on July 7th 2011 by Thom M
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
There's two kinds of bodhran player, one who views it as their main instrument and one who dabbles with it as not their main instrument.
I think that if you already play the music to a good standard and know a rake of tunes, you probably can learn to play the bodhran pretty quickly, as there is very little technique involved. The question of "why?" is another issue, but if you play in a band I'd think it would be a good idea. I like bodhrans in bands as an extra available arrangement of colour.
Then there's the other kind of bodhran player, the one who might dabble in a bit of whistle playing or rudimentary strumming. They face a problem of exclusion. They exclude themselves from the joy of playing these tunes and for the life of me, I can never understand why. Of course, there are those who may well be incapable but I'd view that as a pretty lame excuse ... even disabilities can be overcome. But though he might not like it, I agree with piobagusfidil in that it probably does take a lifetime of immersion in the music to become a really good bodhran player. But, again, why? Why exclude yourself?
And the other thing I don't understand about these kind of bodhran players is that they are often blind to that exclusion. And when, on the odd occasion, that exclusion manifests itself in a tangable way, where, for example, they might be in the company of players who simply just want to play tunes without distraction, they get angry. I'd like to say that really, they are angry with themselves, but they'd never in a million years accept that. They just accuse the tune players of snobbery and elitism. They don't understand why the tune players might wish to just play with other tunes players. I could try and explain it but really, there's no point.
# Posted on July 7th 2011 by ...
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
I generally agree with the last post but I thought I'd just add one or two comments.
Llig suggests that before someone can be be competent playing bodhran and, presumably, other percussion as a main instrument, they should already have mastered the tunes on a melody instrument which is a fair point.
However, there are many "serious" players who haven't entered the world of "bodhran fun" by this route but are still capable of making a fair attempt. Yet, they would still require to know enough about the structure of "the music" and probably still have most of the tunes "in their head". Of course, this again poses the question... "Why not actually learn to play the tunes on a melody(I was going to say "real" but I'd better be nice) instrument instead?"
Another type of player along the lines of "the dabbler" is someone who is "learning" to play another instrument or may be already be a singer or guitarist who doesn't want to be "left out".
So, if he or she doesn't know a particular tune or is not singing or doing his or her own thing just reaches for his bodhran. However, as Llig suggests, although this is done because they wish to feel included, they are actually excluding themselves in the long run.
The same goes for "strummers", "noodlers" etc too, of course. It's very tempting to feel that you have to be doing something all the time but, for the most part, I have now trained myself to refrain from playing all the time especially when I don't quite know what I'm doing.
# Posted on July 7th 2011 by Johnny Jay
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
I never suggested that before someone can be be competent playing bodhran they should already have mastered the tunes on a melody instrument. It's perfectly possible to become an exceptionally good bodhran player without having ever touched a melody instrument. It will though, take a lifetime of intelligent listening and understanding of the tunes. Which as I say, begs the question, "why?"
# Posted on July 7th 2011 by ...
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
Sorry, I misinterpreted your second paragraph.
# Posted on July 7th 2011 by Johnny Jay
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
Blow me, Llig! Not only does this make sense
"There's two kinds of bodhran player, one who views it as their main instrument and one who dabbles with it as not their main instrument.
I think that if you already play the music to a good standard and know a rake of tunes, you probably can learn to play the bodhran pretty quickly, as there is very little technique involved. The question of "why?" is another issue, but if you play in a band I'd think it would be a good idea. I like bodhrans in bands as an extra available arrangement of colour.
Then there's the other kind of bodhran player, the one who might dabble in a bit of whistle playing or rudimentary strumming. They face a problem of exclusion. They exclude themselves from the joy of playing these tunes and for the life of me, I can never understand why. Of course, there are those who may well be incapable but I'd view that as a pretty lame excuse ... even disabilities can be overcome. But though he might not like it, I agree with piobagusfidil in that it probably does take a lifetime of immersion in the music to become a really good bodhran player. But, again, why? Why exclude yourself?"
I actually agree with pretty much everything you say! I think I said earlier that an ability to play tunes or in some way conceptualise the music should be a requirement before anyone is allowed to so much as buy a bodhran. It should never be a 'first' instrument. Where we disagree is that you think it can be, and I'm paraphrasing you here, "at best a distraction; at worst, an irrelevance" in a session. I, on the other hand, don't agree with that assessment, but I think there's enough common ground for us to be able to stop banging heads about it.
m.d.
# Posted on July 7th 2011 by emmdee
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
Good, and thanks. Though I do argue a lot here, I'm not here for an argument.
# Posted on July 7th 2011 by ...
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
Well, I suppose I'm crushed now. I was counting on that to see me through the hard times. Well, I guess I'll go cry myself to sleep now.
# Posted on July 7th 2011 by Jon Kiparsky
Now you are being sensible.
Good lad.
# Posted on July 7th 2011 by bodhran bliss
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
But, again, why? Why exclude yourself?
# Posted on July 7th 2011 by llig leahcim
Sorry Michael but this will upset you. It is not all down to laziness. Some people actually.......like the bodhran, and are captivated by it on their introduction to Irish music.
And it does not have to be a flamboyant John Joe, in my case it was the quiet, elderly Peader mercier with the Chieftains, way back in 1962 before I owned any instruments.
Now between 1962 and 1976 (when I first bought a bodhran) I bought and played whistles, mouth organs, mandolin, even a banjo once. And yes, apart from the mouth organ which i could play to a reasonable standard, I dabbled on the others.
But I always liked the sound and contribution of the bodhran.
Sorry.
# Posted on July 7th 2011 by bodhran bliss
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
Bliss, just watched that video of your good self on youtube. You car-aaaazy, man!
Up Antrim
m.d.
# Posted on July 7th 2011 by emmdee
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
Id like to point out that there are plenty of tune players who thoroughly enjoy playing tunes with a good bodhran player. For me good drummer is great fun to play with , the frequencies are very apart so there is no overlap, there is no clashing of variation. No problem of dodgy irrelevant chord choices from a backer/guitar/bazouki no issues of different second parts or tunes not known. No empty moments as we search for tunes in common.
We are all called to different instruments and thats part and parcel of the musical world ., if we were all fiddlers wouldn't the sessions be dull! I mean Im not one for the fiddle orchestra particularly, I dont really like the sound of massed fiddlers though of course it has its place. The different tones and textures makes up the sound of the session. so heres for flutes whistles, boxes and banjos , pipes and Bodhráns fiddles and whatever else does it for ye. Its all good.
# Posted on July 7th 2011 by piobagusfidil
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
I only object to bodhrans when I can't hear myself or others over them . I have no dogmatic objection to the instrument, and most people in real life seem to feel much the same.
# Posted on July 7th 2011 by Bren
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
I think Bren's point above is one of the most sensible things said in this slightly bonkers thread.
# Posted on July 7th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
I think Bren's point above is one of the most sensible things said in this slightly bonkers thread.
# Posted on July 7th 2011 by TheSilverSpear
SLIGHTLY bonkers????????
I thin i said on the 3rd post WTF???
# Posted on July 7th 2011 by bodhran bliss
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
I think it all went a bit wrong when it became a willie size contest between Jon and emmdee.
# Posted on July 8th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
piobagusfidil, I know there are plenty of tune players who thoroughly enjoy playing tunes with a good bodhran player. But that's the point point ... you are playing the tunes with them ... you are not sharing the tunes with them. There is no clashing of variation because all the variation is coming from you. There is no variation to interact with. There are no empty moments because all the choices are coming from you. You don't have tunes in common because they have no tunes to share.
I like to share a tune. I like to react to different versions/settings/variations
And it may well be the different tones of instruments that make up the sound of a session, but it's the tunes that make the music.
For me good drummer is great fun to play with , the frequencies are very apart so there is no overlap, there is no clashing of variation. No problem of dodgy irrelevant chord choices from a backer/guitar/bazouki no issues of different second parts or tunes not known. No empty moments as we search for tunes in common.
# Posted on July 8th 2011 by ...
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
(sorry, left on the last par that I copy pasted. I meant to delete that before hitting "post")
# Posted on July 8th 2011 by ...
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
I think it all went a bit wrong when it became a willie size contest between Jon and emmdee.
# Posted on July 8th 2011 by TheSilverSpear
The original poster was called "Dublin......Wannabee" which is when I suspected it might be a wind up.
But it did provide lots of fun.
As for willie size........
# Posted on July 8th 2011 by bodhran bliss
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
Certainly gives a whole new meaning to 'Willie Week'
m.d.
# Posted on July 8th 2011 by emmdee
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
The meaning is there already.
I have a t-shirt I bought at Willie Week a few years ago which just says "Willie Week." The comments this has engendered are often fantastic. Most recently, a woman at Newcastleton approached me and said, "What on earth does your t-shirt mean?" I said that it was a festival in Ireland named after a guy called Willie Clancy. She was like, "Oh, I thought you might be a sexual health worker!"
# Posted on July 8th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
Given declining educational standards, think yourself lucky it doesn't say 'Willie Weak'...
m.d.
# Posted on July 8th 2011 by emmdee
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
Is this the record size discussion ?
200 and how many ..........?
# Posted on July 13th 2011 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
not even by half
# Posted on July 13th 2011 by ...
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
The longest thread ever, as far as I know, was 900-something posts.
# Posted on July 13th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
what is the longest discussion?
# Posted on July 13th 2011 by fiddlelearner
Re: Bodhran Technique: Bent or Straight Wrist?
It depends if you count the deleted posts.
# Posted on July 13th 2011 by ...