A tune which I keep coming back to is The Lads of Laoise. (Dezi Donnelly plays a lovely version on his CD Familiar Footsteps) For some reason I find the triplets at the begining of the A part quite difficult to play. Sometimes I can play them, sometimes I can't. I seem to find playing triplets more difficult on the G and D strings, is this normal. Is there a prefererred sequence up-down-up or down-up-down? I assume that to be able to play both u-d-u or d-u-d would be best. I've heard that some fiddlers tighten there bow-wrist when playing triplets, is this an Irish technique?
Any comments/help/advice would be appreciated.
Daver, back in the thread titled "Jenny's Welcome to Charley" dated November 13, 2001, I posted a step-by-step descritpion of how to get your bowed triplets firing. There's also a separate thread on "Bowed or Scratched Triplets" dated July 26, 2001, that deals a lot with doing them down-up-down or up-down-up. I think you'll find good tips in both of these threads.
In my own experience, it is CRUCIAL that you NOT tighten your wrist when throwing the triplets. The motion actually comes from your fingers and lower hand, and it's a very small motion, totally reliant on a relaxed wrist. Also, I do 90 percent of mine d-u-d, but some people prefer to do theirs u-d-u.
As for the opening of Lads of Laois, I'm guessing you're finding those low triplets difficult because they're on the G string, meaning that your bow arm is swung way up and over to reach the string, and your wrist is probably in some bent shape in which it isn't used to performing triplets. If this is indeed the problem, try raising your bow forearm even higher. To properly do the triplets, you want your wrist dangling down from the forearm when the "snap" initiates the triplet. The only way to do this on the G string is to raise the forearm high enough that the wrist has room to dangle and still carry the bow over the string. You'll need a higher forearm to reach that G string with a triplet than if you were simply dragging the bow across the string. Experiment with this to see if it helps, but BE CAREFUL. Raising your bow arm this high can cause an impingement of your rotator cuff (muscles in your shoulder), and this can lead to career-ending injury. It's important to stay relaxed, start out slow and controlled, and don't tense up to throw the triplet (again, see the discussion under Jenny's Welcome to Charley).
Watch yourself in a mirror. Play a triplet on the first (e) string. Look at your bow wrist, and pay attention to the angle at which it dangles (no crude jokes please). Now play a triplet on the A string, and again on the D, and finally on the G string. To keep the same relaxed dangle angle (I mean it, no snickering in the back row!), as you move across the strings, you have to raise your arm higher.
Of course, the other option in Lads of Laois is to roll those low B, and A, notes, which would reduce the action of your bow arm. But then rolls on the G string tend to torque your fingering hand just to reach over that far.....ahhh, the joys of fiddle.
James Kelly plays a really lovely version of LoL on his not-very-imaginatively-titled but still grand album Traditional Irish Music. In one of the go-rounds, he doesn't have a single triplet in the first two measures, and it sounds beautiful.
I agree with Will -- staying relaxed is the first and foremost technique to work on. Don't tighten anything up, including your mindset -- LoL and just about any other tune will sound just fine withOUT the triplets, remember, so getting them in is a bonus, not a requirement. I also have much better triplets with a relaxed wrist, not a tightening, and I've tried it both ways as well.
Banging your frog on the sofa is helpful too, but sometimes you don't have the luxury of one!
Actually Glauber, to do triplets on the G string you have to bang your frog on the chandelier.... or perhaps the noggin of the bodhran player sitting next to you.
I like Zina's idea. You can slide up to the first E note and make it a longer note, then just tap the low B, and then just hang on the low A, without ornamenting it - something like:
| _E-E2 B,E EFGE|DA,3 A, DEFD|
Where the _E-E2 means starting with your index finger below the E (E flat) and sliding up to E and holding it for a quarter note.
I can't recall James Kelly's version offhand, so I don't know what he does without a triplet or roll, but the notes are always eager to stand on their own. Think I'll incorporate this little variation into my playing on this tune--thanks for the inspiration!
If you want variation on a tune, James Kelly's your man. I made the mistake of trying to learn his setting of LoL when I was first starting. First off, it's much too hard a tune to give a dead beginner, and second, he is so endlessly inventive that if you aren't familiar enough with the music as to be able to winnow through everything to find the base melody, you'll probably be better off learning from someone who plays it much straighter all the way through to get the basic tune. (Although of course one should listen to players like Kelly as much as possible from beginning to end.)
Let's see...I would say that one of his first go-rounds of LoL might go something like this (I'm working from memory here, so don't quote me), in D, of course:
||E2 B,2 EGFE|DA, ~A,2 DE (3FED|(3GFE ED EFGA|(3Bcd ec dBAF|
E2 B,E GEB,E|DA, ~A,2 DE (3FED|E2 BE dE cE|DEFA (3Bcd AF||
EB, ~B,2 EGFE|DA, ~A,2 DE(3FED|(3GFE ED EFGA|(3Bcd ec dBAF|
E2 B,E GEB,E|DA, ~A,2 DE (3FED|(3Bcd ec dBAF|DEFA BE E2||
Kelly plays it with a definite swing, by the way.
Hmm. I can see I should really go haul that album back out again and try to redo LoL in my head...
Thanks for all the help given on playng triplets (lads of laoise), especially Will H. Strangley enough I could play them quite well last night, very strange.
I understand that every time someone snickers or snorts somewhere, a faery dies.
So if I wave my bow in your direction, and your problems disappear, why do they have to crystalize like rime out of thin air onto MY playing. While Daver was enjoying his triplets, mine were misfiring last night at our weekly (weakly) session.
For what it's worth...now don't everyone snicker at once! I'm new to playing these tunes and my instrument is double bass! So I can't really address the specific problem of playing a specific tune,especially on fiddle. But for general technique and musicality we're in the same boat,although it often seems that I'M rowing an ocean liner with a canoe paddle! So my suggestion is this: For triplet bowings generally try to begin down bow if the triplet falls on a strong beat or a note that requires an accent.If it's on a weak beat(the last beat of a bar or the 2nd beat in 4meter) begin it up.However a triplet on the 2nd beat of a triple meter tune( 3/4,9/8) if followed by a quarter note is more conveniently begun down bow. If you must play the triplet across two strings (eg. D string-A str.-D str. or A str.-D str.-A str.) you might tailor your bowing to the curve of the bridge. Meaning from lower string to higher str. to lower str.( as in D str.-A str.-D str. on fiddle) u-d-u is physically easier and for the oppostite ( A str.-D str.-A str.) d-u-d is easier. Obviously down bow is a stronger stroke, but sometimes we just have to try to play an up bow to sound like a down bow; and vice-versa. In general when I play any music I try to play strong beats and accented notes down bow whenever possible and if necessary make some sort of compromise on some other beat. In the long run you'll eventually find yourself in a situation where my "textbook approach" doesn't work; for those situations foresight and practicing unusual ,unlikely,and clumsy bowings (just in case) couldn't hurt! Also I definitely agree with Will Harmon's comments of Jan. 8,2002.
Dwyght Bryan
Welcome to The Session Dwyght! Wow...double bass. I'd love to have you sit in on our live session here in Montana. We've had cello a few times, and some folks complained about the vibrations it generated in their seats and pints. I thought it was kinda cool myself, and I can imagine what a bass would do!
I want to clarify what type of triplets we're talking about here, though. Irish music uses a form of bowed triplet that goes by faster than the standard two-sixteenths and an eighth note. Some people call them scratch triplets--the point is, they're a rhtymic ornament, not so much a melodic one, and so the the bowing technique is different than simply bowing triplets. Here's an example to distinguish the two. "Melodic" triplets might be used in a D major hornpipe as a run:
|(3efe (3dcB (3ABA (3GFE|
But you can add rhythmic triplets to this:
|(3efe (3ddc B (3ABA G (3FFE|
At speed, these scratch triplets are just a light snap of the lower hand, not a fully bowed up-down-up or down-up-down motion. Ideally this produces a crisp, somewhat percussive effect very different from simple triplets. I've noticed that even Yo Yo Ma doesn't quite succeed at reproducing this effect when he plays "celtic" tunes with Mark O'Connor--Ma's triplets still take up too much time rather than gracing the beat.
Most fiddlers do scratch triplets down-up-down, although some people find them easier u-d-u, and a few can do them either way. Some are more percussive about it than others.
You also mention playing most strong beats and accented notes on down bows, but I find to get the lilt and lift into a tune often requires emphasizing the up bows. Kevin Burke and others teach that you should be able to add emphasis and accent as easily on an up bow as a down, and Irish music in partuclar comes alive when fiddlers do this. In the Jig Gallagher's Frolics, for example:
|EDE GFE|BAB dBA|~B3 BAB|GBG AFD|
This can be played by single bowing each note...|d-u-d, u-d-u| etc. Instead of banging down on the first note in the first group of three, try accenting the first note in the SECOND group of three, which would be an up bow. To my ear, the tune comes to life now.
Thanks for clearing that up for me Will. I understand about the triplet being an ornamet, both melodic and rhythmic, in Irish music. Also I agree that one should be able to put musical weight on an up bow as well as a down. Obviously it's obligatory at times. My point was that it is easier to put weight or an accent on a down bow ,although the difference is not as great for the fiddle as for the bass. I've used the phrasing to the second group of three on baroque gigues(don't know why they are afraid to pronounce and spell it right he-he-he) and it also works well on Mexican sones and huapangos. Sometimes on the bass, with the tuning in 4ths,heavy sluggish bow and myriad other problems that people who play more user friendly instruments never have to worry about , it's easier to get that effect and keep it clean by bowing backwards. Playing Celtic Music on the bass ,as a solo instrument,is a new endeavour for me.I expect to have alot of fun and learn alot here at The Session if you all will put up with me. If I'm ever up in Montana I'd sure be glad to look you up and sit in on some tunes.
Sl
I'd wager the scratch triplet has been around as long as fiddlers have been listening to pipers and trying to mimic the pipes' crisp ornaments. Listen to the old recordings of Bobby Casey, Junior Crehan, John Doherty, Coleman, etc., and you'll hear the scratch triplets mixed in with slurred triplets.
I suspect that we're hearing more scratch triplets these days because Altan's fame has brought Donegal music to the fore in recent years. There's less emphasis on the smooth Sligo style. And Mr. Peoples no doubt influenced a generation or two of fiddlers to put more "tckch" into their triplets, but he was just putting his own touch on what he heard from the fiddlers before him.
triplets on the fiddle
triplets on the fiddle
A tune which I keep coming back to is The Lads of Laoise. (Dezi Donnelly plays a lovely version on his CD Familiar Footsteps) For some reason I find the triplets at the begining of the A part quite difficult to play. Sometimes I can play them, sometimes I can't. I seem to find playing triplets more difficult on the G and D strings, is this normal. Is there a prefererred sequence up-down-up or down-up-down? I assume that to be able to play both u-d-u or d-u-d would be best. I've heard that some fiddlers tighten there bow-wrist when playing triplets, is this an Irish technique?
Any comments/help/advice would be appreciated.
# Posted on January 7th 2002 by Daver
Re: triplets on the fiddle
Daver, back in the thread titled "Jenny's Welcome to Charley" dated November 13, 2001, I posted a step-by-step descritpion of how to get your bowed triplets firing. There's also a separate thread on "Bowed or Scratched Triplets" dated July 26, 2001, that deals a lot with doing them down-up-down or up-down-up. I think you'll find good tips in both of these threads.
In my own experience, it is CRUCIAL that you NOT tighten your wrist when throwing the triplets. The motion actually comes from your fingers and lower hand, and it's a very small motion, totally reliant on a relaxed wrist. Also, I do 90 percent of mine d-u-d, but some people prefer to do theirs u-d-u.
As for the opening of Lads of Laois, I'm guessing you're finding those low triplets difficult because they're on the G string, meaning that your bow arm is swung way up and over to reach the string, and your wrist is probably in some bent shape in which it isn't used to performing triplets. If this is indeed the problem, try raising your bow forearm even higher. To properly do the triplets, you want your wrist dangling down from the forearm when the "snap" initiates the triplet. The only way to do this on the G string is to raise the forearm high enough that the wrist has room to dangle and still carry the bow over the string. You'll need a higher forearm to reach that G string with a triplet than if you were simply dragging the bow across the string. Experiment with this to see if it helps, but BE CAREFUL. Raising your bow arm this high can cause an impingement of your rotator cuff (muscles in your shoulder), and this can lead to career-ending injury. It's important to stay relaxed, start out slow and controlled, and don't tense up to throw the triplet (again, see the discussion under Jenny's Welcome to Charley).
Watch yourself in a mirror. Play a triplet on the first (e) string. Look at your bow wrist, and pay attention to the angle at which it dangles (no crude jokes please). Now play a triplet on the A string, and again on the D, and finally on the G string. To keep the same relaxed dangle angle (I mean it, no snickering in the back row!), as you move across the strings, you have to raise your arm higher.
Of course, the other option in Lads of Laois is to roll those low B, and A, notes, which would reduce the action of your bow arm. But then rolls on the G string tend to torque your fingering hand just to reach over that far.....ahhh, the joys of fiddle.
Hope this helps.
# Posted on January 8th 2002 by Will Harmon
Re: triplets on the fiddle
Sometimes it helps to bang your frog on the sofa!
# Posted on January 8th 2002 by glauber
Re: triplets on the fiddle
James Kelly plays a really lovely version of LoL on his not-very-imaginatively-titled but still grand album Traditional Irish Music. In one of the go-rounds, he doesn't have a single triplet in the first two measures, and it sounds beautiful.
I agree with Will -- staying relaxed is the first and foremost technique to work on. Don't tighten anything up, including your mindset -- LoL and just about any other tune will sound just fine withOUT the triplets, remember, so getting them in is a bonus, not a requirement. I also have much better triplets with a relaxed wrist, not a tightening, and I've tried it both ways as well.
Banging your frog on the sofa is helpful too, but sometimes you don't have the luxury of one!
Zina
# Posted on January 8th 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: triplets on the fiddle
Actually Glauber, to do triplets on the G string you have to bang your frog on the chandelier....
or perhaps the noggin of the bodhran player sitting next to you.
# Posted on January 8th 2002 by Will Harmon
Lads of Laois
I like Zina's idea. You can slide up to the first E note and make it a longer note, then just tap the low B, and then just hang on the low A, without ornamenting it - something like:
| _E-E2 B,E EFGE|DA,3 A, DEFD|
Where the _E-E2 means starting with your index finger below the E (E flat) and sliding up to E and holding it for a quarter note.
I can't recall James Kelly's version offhand, so I don't know what he does without a triplet or roll, but the notes are always eager to stand on their own. Think I'll incorporate this little variation into my playing on this tune--thanks for the inspiration!
# Posted on January 8th 2002 by Will Harmon
Re: triplets on the fiddle
I always played it with rolls - doesn't help but it's the alternative.
# Posted on January 8th 2002 by B Rad
Re: triplets on the fiddle
If you want variation on a tune, James Kelly's your man. I made the mistake of trying to learn his setting of LoL when I was first starting. First off, it's much too hard a tune to give a dead beginner, and second, he is so endlessly inventive that if you aren't familiar enough with the music as to be able to winnow through everything to find the base melody, you'll probably be better off learning from someone who plays it much straighter all the way through to get the basic tune. (Although of course one should listen to players like Kelly as much as possible from beginning to end.)
Let's see...I would say that one of his first go-rounds of LoL might go something like this (I'm working from memory here, so don't quote me), in D, of course:
||E2 B,2 EGFE|DA, ~A,2 DE (3FED|(3GFE ED EFGA|(3Bcd ec dBAF|
E2 B,E GEB,E|DA, ~A,2 DE (3FED|E2 BE dE cE|DEFA (3Bcd AF||
EB, ~B,2 EGFE|DA, ~A,2 DE(3FED|(3GFE ED EFGA|(3Bcd ec dBAF|
E2 B,E GEB,E|DA, ~A,2 DE (3FED|(3Bcd ec dBAF|DEFA BE E2||
Kelly plays it with a definite swing, by the way.
Hmm. I can see I should really go haul that album back out again and try to redo LoL in my head...
Zina
# Posted on January 8th 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: triplets on the fiddle
Thank you Zina for the Kelly variations! Nicely done.
# Posted on January 8th 2002 by Will Harmon
Re: triplets on the fiddle
Hey, I may get this ABC thing eventually at this rate. *grin*
zls
# Posted on January 8th 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: triplets on the fiddle
Thanks for all the help given on playng triplets (lads of laoise), especially Will H. Strangley enough I could play them quite well last night, very strange.
Daver
# Posted on January 8th 2002 by Daver
Re: triplets on the fiddle
Ah, it must be Will's aura or something, Daver. He waves his magic wand (or bow, or whatever) and suddenly all our problems disappear...
*snicker*
# Posted on January 9th 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: triplets on the fiddle
I understand that every time someone snickers or snorts somewhere, a faery dies.
So if I wave my bow in your direction, and your problems disappear, why do they have to crystalize like rime out of thin air onto MY playing. While Daver was enjoying his triplets, mine were misfiring last night at our weekly (weakly) session.
# Posted on January 9th 2002 by Will Harmon
Re: triplets on the fiddle
Witchcraft! Sorcery! Heh.
So, what's the difference exactly between a fairy and a faery? Besides the dipthong, I mean. *grin* Did you ever find that Jade resin, Will?
Sorry, I seem to be the queen of the non-sequitur today.
Zina
# Posted on January 9th 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: triplets on the fiddle
For what it's worth...now don't everyone snicker at once! I'm new to playing these tunes and my instrument is double bass! So I can't really address the specific problem of playing a specific tune,especially on fiddle. But for general technique and musicality we're in the same boat,although it often seems that I'M rowing an ocean liner with a canoe paddle! So my suggestion is this: For triplet bowings generally try to begin down bow if the triplet falls on a strong beat or a note that requires an accent.If it's on a weak beat(the last beat of a bar or the 2nd beat in 4meter) begin it up.However a triplet on the 2nd beat of a triple meter tune( 3/4,9/8) if followed by a quarter note is more conveniently begun down bow. If you must play the triplet across two strings (eg. D string-A str.-D str. or A str.-D str.-A str.) you might tailor your bowing to the curve of the bridge. Meaning from lower string to higher str. to lower str.( as in D str.-A str.-D str. on fiddle) u-d-u is physically easier and for the oppostite ( A str.-D str.-A str.) d-u-d is easier. Obviously down bow is a stronger stroke, but sometimes we just have to try to play an up bow to sound like a down bow; and vice-versa. In general when I play any music I try to play strong beats and accented notes down bow whenever possible and if necessary make some sort of compromise on some other beat. In the long run you'll eventually find yourself in a situation where my "textbook approach" doesn't work; for those situations foresight and practicing unusual ,unlikely,and clumsy bowings (just in case) couldn't hurt! Also I definitely agree with Will Harmon's comments of Jan. 8,2002.
Dwyght Bryan
# Posted on January 14th 2002 by Dwyght Bryan
Re: triplets on the fiddle
Welcome to The Session Dwyght! Wow...double bass. I'd love to have you sit in on our live session here in Montana. We've had cello a few times, and some folks complained about the vibrations it generated in their seats and pints. I thought it was kinda cool myself, and I can imagine what a bass would do!
I want to clarify what type of triplets we're talking about here, though. Irish music uses a form of bowed triplet that goes by faster than the standard two-sixteenths and an eighth note. Some people call them scratch triplets--the point is, they're a rhtymic ornament, not so much a melodic one, and so the the bowing technique is different than simply bowing triplets. Here's an example to distinguish the two. "Melodic" triplets might be used in a D major hornpipe as a run:
|(3efe (3dcB (3ABA (3GFE|
But you can add rhythmic triplets to this:
|(3efe (3ddc B (3ABA G (3FFE|
At speed, these scratch triplets are just a light snap of the lower hand, not a fully bowed up-down-up or down-up-down motion. Ideally this produces a crisp, somewhat percussive effect very different from simple triplets. I've noticed that even Yo Yo Ma doesn't quite succeed at reproducing this effect when he plays "celtic" tunes with Mark O'Connor--Ma's triplets still take up too much time rather than gracing the beat.
Most fiddlers do scratch triplets down-up-down, although some people find them easier u-d-u, and a few can do them either way. Some are more percussive about it than others.
You also mention playing most strong beats and accented notes on down bows, but I find to get the lilt and lift into a tune often requires emphasizing the up bows. Kevin Burke and others teach that you should be able to add emphasis and accent as easily on an up bow as a down, and Irish music in partuclar comes alive when fiddlers do this. In the Jig Gallagher's Frolics, for example:
|EDE GFE|BAB dBA|~B3 BAB|GBG AFD|
This can be played by single bowing each note...|d-u-d, u-d-u| etc. Instead of banging down on the first note in the first group of three, try accenting the first note in the SECOND group of three, which would be an up bow. To my ear, the tune comes to life now.
# Posted on January 14th 2002 by Will Harmon
Re: triplets on the fiddle
Thanks for clearing that up for me Will. I understand about the triplet being an ornamet, both melodic and rhythmic, in Irish music. Also I agree that one should be able to put musical weight on an up bow as well as a down. Obviously it's obligatory at times. My point was that it is easier to put weight or an accent on a down bow ,although the difference is not as great for the fiddle as for the bass. I've used the phrasing to the second group of three on baroque gigues(don't know why they are afraid to pronounce and spell it right he-he-he) and it also works well on Mexican sones and huapangos. Sometimes on the bass, with the tuning in 4ths,heavy sluggish bow and myriad other problems that people who play more user friendly instruments never have to worry about , it's easier to get that effect and keep it clean by bowing backwards. Playing Celtic Music on the bass ,as a solo instrument,is a new endeavour for me.I expect to have alot of fun and learn alot here at The Session if you all will put up with me. If I'm ever up in Montana I'd sure be glad to look you up and sit in on some tunes.
Sl
# Posted on January 14th 2002 by Dwyght Bryan
Re: triplets on the fiddle
Doesnt anyone in itm play the "standard" triplet as opposed to the "scratch" triplets.
Is it my imagination or did the scratch thing become popular after Tommy Peoples hit the scene with his percussive triplet or was it done before this?
# Posted on April 28th 2002 by donnchad
Re: triplets on the fiddle
I'd wager the scratch triplet has been around as long as fiddlers have been listening to pipers and trying to mimic the pipes' crisp ornaments. Listen to the old recordings of Bobby Casey, Junior Crehan, John Doherty, Coleman, etc., and you'll hear the scratch triplets mixed in with slurred triplets.
I suspect that we're hearing more scratch triplets these days because Altan's fame has brought Donegal music to the fore in recent years. There's less emphasis on the smooth Sligo style. And Mr. Peoples no doubt influenced a generation or two of fiddlers to put more "tckch" into their triplets, but he was just putting his own touch on what he heard from the fiddlers before him.
# Posted on April 28th 2002 by Will Harmon