I've had the almost the same conversation lately with two different guitar players at two different sessions. Both were playing on a "mediocre" level; not completely bad, but too often using chords and rhythms that just didn't work, which ruined the tunes for me. One backer plays with a piper that I respect, the other is in a band with some melody players that I'm trying to get to play regularly at a new session, so I was looking for a polite way to tell them that their backing needs some work. The basic jist of both conversations was something like this:
Me: So what kind of ITM are you listening to at the moment?
Backer: Um, maybe 6 months ago I was listening to Solas.
Me: Cool, so do you like John Doyle's guitar playing?
Backer: Yeah, it's O.K.
Me: Have you tried copying his style or figuring out how he backs tunes?
Backer: No, that's too complicated for me, and he's playing in DADGAD anyway.
Me: (After giving up on trying to convince the backer that Doyle normally plays in dropped D) So how do you learn to accompany a new tune?
Backer: I don't know, I prefer to just figure out the backing by myself.
Me: So how do you do that?
Backer: I normally just play along in the session till the chords sound right.
So how do you motivate a backer to improve, learn new tunes and play better? What do you do with those that are happy being sub-par, or can't be bothered working out stuff at home? Kick them out because they're hopeless? Give them an ultimatum? Good cop bad cop?
A dozen years ago, it was not unusual for 4 guitarists to show up at our session. Today we have one. She's the only one who listened when we talked about knowing the tunes, feeling the pulse. The others didn't want to learn anything beyond boom-chuck and I IV V chords. Two of them dropped out because they got tired of even the polite statements that their rhythm wasn't appropriate for the tunes. The fourth one finally left after someone nicely asked him to lower his volume and find the beat, and when that didn't result in any change, told the guy to feck off. Our session is much better off for it.
Yes, it's a shame some people don't get it, and don't seem open to learning. With them, your choice comes down to rolling over and letting them ruin your session, or, after multiple attempts to guide them in a healthy direction, asking them to stop.
We usually chase them off to one of the two local "guitar crasher/bodhran thumper" sessions and offer lessons, telling them that they can come back in a year or two and try again. It doesn't go over well, but you can't teach someone who has no respect for the music and refuses to learn.
First off hinting at someone that they should play in a certain way or other way.. is only going to work if that player is "really into you". /They aren't going to read anything into your conversation, or care if you are happy with their playing unless they love playing with you.
Also if you want someone to do something best to be direct, like you did, but why on earth would you want anyone who doesn't know exactly what they are doing to mimmick John Doyle? That kind of playing is bassy and pushes the tune around, why you would want anyone who isn't already a trusted backer to try that stuff.. is beyond me. Maybe what you want is for the person to be John Doyle... which is probably never going to happen.
If they won't play DADGAD, and they haven't a clue what they are doing... nor do they listen to any Irish music other than "Solas about 6 months ago"... you've lost me as to why you would worry too much about fixing them...like I said above unless they worship you, and want to play with you so bad they would do anything you say, then you are just talking to a wall.
before getting defensive about your guitar hero up there, I like his playing, when he is the one doing it... I just don't like how it sounds when people try to be him, and they've no clue what they are really doing.. I find it extremely annoying infact.
Now imagine for a moment if the mediocre player in question played a melody instrument:
You: So what kind of ITM are you listening to at the moment?
Mediocre Fiddle Player: ITM? You mean Irish music? Um, all kinds of people. Martin Hayes, Altan, I don’t know, lots.
You: Cool, so have you tried copying Martin Hayes’s style or figuring out how he does his variations?
Mediocre Fiddle Player: Well, no, not really. I’ve had some other things I’ve been working on…
You: (After giving up on trying to convince the fiddle player that Hayes is the best to emulate because he plays slow) So how do you work on your tunes?
Mediocre Fiddle Player: You know what, I’m going to go to the bar for a beer. Do you want me to order you something?
Now that I've gotten the snarky response out of my system, I'll suggest something helpful---when a player does something you *like*, let them know. Ask them to do it again. Maybe brag about the way they did that great thing. Maybe tell them how it reminded you of the way [insert legendary backer's name] also does that great thing. Positive reinforcement, get it?
In fairness, a mediocre melody player doesn't often wreck a session in quite the irretrievable way that a guitar player who is "playing along in the session until the chords sound right" on every single set does.
I wouldn't suggest you use DADGAD or dropped D tuning as a measure though. A friend of mine took 3rd in All Ireland in 2006 for accompaniment playing standard tuning.
I like Ann Conroy Burke's backing. I mean I really like it - what more is necessary? It's the perfect foil: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qcThzEOBv30
Suggesy backers play like this (one at a time), and especially to move away from the "wall of sound" style of thrash backing.
'In fairness, a mediocre melody player doesn't often wreck a session in quite the irretrievable way that a guitar player who is "playing along in the session until the chords sound right" on every single set does.'
That, in fairness, is a perception usually adopted by mediocre players.
Well not wishing to be controversial here but has anybody ever considered that there maybe backers out there who are choosy about the melody players they'll back?
I can tell you that there are quite a few backers in that category, unquestionably so.
@sandybottoms: John Doyle was what both backers had thrown in to the debate as a guitarist they knew. I was hoping to pick up on what they offered, be it Doyle, Cahill or any other backer. As a fiddle player, I listened to what Tommy Peoples, Kevin Burke and the likes were doing and tried to add it to my playing, so I was wondering what guitarists might inspire them to be a better backer, or if there are other strategies to wake them up.
@kennedy: I'll see where I can go with positive reinforcement. If the conversation had been going in the direction you posted, I would have enjoyed talking about different styles, what you can do with them, etc., but the backers don't seem to be currently interested in listening to ITM. I do sometimes worry about being condesending, so thanks for pointing that out!
@Will Harmon (or the backer you're talking about): What recordings did she listen to? How did she improve? Did she take lessons or go to workshops?
It's been suggested here already(By Richard) that over complicated and clever backing isn't strictly necessary. Likewise playing in DADGAD or any other non standard tunings.
A simple accompaniment if well done(That's usually the problem) is usually quite adequate and every bit as effective for most average (and above) sessions. In fact, most melody players would probably agree that "less is more".
Of course, for band arrangements and playing with the "big boys" a more imaginative approach is often desirable. However, I've even seen players such as Tommy Peoples and many others happily perform with very some basic backers in their time.
I am wondering, do the others at Bleedin' Heart's session feel the same way about this "mediocre" backer?
Does everyone perceive a problem?
And, if not, then who really IS the problem?
I play regularly with a bunch where the bar for musicality is set low, but for sociability is set high. A lot of fun, but hardly a session for fast-movers.
So one question might be, "What kind of session is it you are playing in?" And "What are the standards the rest of the regulars are demanding?"
Piece, I'm not the only one who sees it as a problem, but I get your point that it's a matter of perception. I'm trying to get a session up and running with the few musicians available here, and I need to figure out what works, who has potential, and who might be detrimental to the development of the session in the long run. The guitarist couldn't figure out that reels like The Silver Spear or The Merry Blacksmith are in D major and not in D mixolydian, and I'm wondering if and how this can be fixed. I'll try some positive reinforcement, but I'm worried that he's just too comfortable with the skills he already has.
If you know and like a guitar player well enough to play with just you two then my advice would be to cultivate his playing. Get together outside of the session and help the player learn the tunes by playing along with you slowly. Comment when you have to but be liberal with praise when he gets it right.
Inappropriate, clumsy, insensitive backing is not limited to guitar players outside of Ireland, by the way. Few backers understand how tricky it is to accompany an Irish tune properly, or accept that they are the frame and not the picture.
I know a guitarist... who not only keeps rhythm, and understands the tunes well, but can even make up diddly bits, that aren't even Irish in nature, and will throw them in sometimes if a tune is sometimes on it's 5th time through or really played out and it really makes me laugh, it's as if he is throwing a flag on the field, and we realize somebody better move on. Now that is quite funny.... it's irreverant, yet, knowledgable and takes skill to pull off tastefully. So what makes a guitarist good? That is a tough one, cause this guy breaks all the rules..sometimes... , and we love him to pieces. 'oh and he stays off his bass strings almost all the time, he keeps it up higher, and a little quiet usually, probably how he gets away with it.
You might find that accompanists play better when they play with good melody players. It certainly makes the job easier. As Solidmahog says backers can be just as choosy as melody players and, trust me, a poor melody player can be just as bad as a poor accompanist.
"'In fairness, a mediocre melody player doesn't often wreck a session in quite the irretrievable way that a guitar player who is "playing along in the session until the chords sound right" on every single set does.'
That, in fairness, is a perception usually adopted by mediocre players. "
@Prof P. - In fairness to ElaineT, a melody player is usually playing one note at a time; a guitarist, on the other hand, is capable of playing (and, in the case of a mediocre one, usually does play) six notes at once. Ergo, not only is the probability of playing a bum note increased sixfold, but there is the possibility of playing up to six bum notes all at once. Add to this the possibility of six notes all played out of time an you can see how a mediocre backer has greater session-wrecking power than a mediocre melody player.
I speak as a mediocre melody player and a mediocre guitarist.
"You might find that accompanists play better when they play with good melody players. It certainly makes the job easier."
Indeed - that's the other side of the coin. A good backer can sound bad when they are playing with bad melody players because the onus is upon them to hold everyone else together and so, all the *musicality* in their playing goes to pot. A *really* good player (session player, at any rate), though - tune player or backer - makes playing easier for everyone, so that even the bad players play well.
'@Prof P. - In fairness to ElaineT, a melody player is usually playing one note at a time; a guitarist, on the other hand, is capable of playing (and, in the case of a mediocre one, usually does play) six notes at once. '
Just to elaborrate a bit on what I said: I don't think the number of notes is really the problem. I think a poor or mediocre melody player is well and truly able to banjax a session. Slightly off rhythms, the lack of ability to adjust rhythmic approaches to those of the players you are playing with, not adapting on the spot to slightly different versions that can throw a whole night of music. I have seen it happen endless times. We have a group of players who visit every now and again, and I have played with them on occasion over a ten year timespan. When you hear them on their own you may think they're not too bad but when you play with them they always pull at the rhythms and the speed and it's highly annoying. It makes the night music just plain hard work. Now, they think they're god's gift to music and they haven't a clue what a strain they put on other musicians all around. And that's just one example out of many I could think of.
Now that was more or less what I was getting at. In my mind it's foolish to blame all ills on backers. Some can be annoying alright but they're not any worse than flute, accordeon or whatever players that don't quite get it.
I think melody players need to look at their own abilities just as hard as backers as poor or mediocre playing by either is equally detrimental.
@Prof. I tend to disagree... Imagine a bunch of strong players with perfect tone & perfect rhythm keeping skills (use yourself in this example), someone learning, and a BAD guitarist who can't get one chord in. Tell us again how ElaineT is wrong? I'm pretty sure she generally ranked severity (my take on it anyway)... If the melody is being carried, I'm pretty sure the accompaniment is what is throwing things off. I can see your example working if the main players cant carry the melody, then yes that is work and equally frustrating. Thats just a bad night...
Oh goodie - it's been almost a month since our last "backers" thread. I was beginning to worry.
Professor P - I would respectfully disagree with your theory that a poorly informed guitar player is no worse than a mediocre melody player. Although it may take a bit extra work to muddle through a tune with a novice melody player, a poor guitar player can throw a session off entirely. Put several in a session strumming all at once and the melody player can imagine the desperation a salmon feels swimming up-river against a rough boulder strewn current only to be eaten by a bear.
In my humble experience few melody players wander into a session and think the simple ownership of an instrument allows them to play immediately on every tune. This cannot be said of a many strummers. Have guitar, will play - knowledge of style and genre is an afterthought.
This is a false dichotomy. Is a bad backer more destructive of a session than a bad melody player? Either can destroy a session. It would depend on the instrument played, for one thing. A quiet bad guitar vs a loud red accordion? Give me the guitar.
A loud bad guitar vs a quiet bad fiddler? Give me the fiddler. It's a question of who you can ignore more easily and that depends on their volume and where you're sitting.
Personally, I find it easier to play one on one with a challenged melody player than with a challenged guitar player.
What I hate the most in backers is the ones who can't keep a steady beat, who speed up mercilessly, obliviously, as they "get into" the tune. It really p*sses me off. I've had to stop playing in the middle of a tune and put my hand on the fret board of one of these guitar players, and made him stop playing. Another person, whom I really like, can't/won't fix her rushing problem; and yes, I did tell her about it and suggested she work with a metronome. Still friendly with both, but try not to sit next to them in sessions or ask them to gig with me.
I know this makes me sound like an ass; perhaps so. But I just had to finally take action. I think both understood.
It's definitely thought-provoking though. Remembering all the "session-wreckers" I've encountered (or been!) in the past, it's probably about 50-50 backers vs melody players.
The thing his comment made me realize is that, yes, when I was a beginner, and all the other players at the session were likewise, a guitar player really was the only thing that wrecked the session. But as I've tuned my ear and gotten better, now I have less tolerance for poor rhythm, missed notes, generally bad playing, and so on.
Of course, if you have a good core of solid musicians, then you can play through any bad musician, backer or otherwise. But looking back at my past, there were definitely periods and groups where only a really terrible backer could actually wreck the session.
That said, I *think* that I still have less tolerance for bad backers, than bad melody players, but I don't think it's really due only to their capacity to wreck a session through bad playing.
It depends how one defines bad playing, a matter of taste really, unless the player is not keeping an even tempo,or playing out of tune.
Apropos interpreation and style, there are a few people pontificating on this thread, whose playing barely reaches the mediocre, yet they clearly think that their playing is the bees knees, it is absolutely hilarious.
Bleedin' Heart, our backer has taken workshops with Donnough Hennessy, Tony McManus, and others, and also traveled to Ireland and gently joined in when invited to at local sessions. Mostly, she has a good ear and was willing to develop both it and her guitar skills so that she would be an asset and not a hinderance to our session.
She learned to listen so well that she also knows the value of sitting out. And she's a mighty singer. So we're lucky.
It helps to have a backer like ours who's really into the music and not just doing it as an aside to playing bluegrass or rock or whatever. Once your session has one good backer who shows up every week, it's easier to dissuade the dabblers.
Both poor melody players and poor backers have the ability to destroy a session. In the past, we've had issues with loud mandolin and tenor banjo players that just trashed the session.
It only takes one melody player living in their own private non-adaptive rhythmic and intonation bubble to suck all the energy out of a session, I don't care what the instrument is in their hands.
That being said, mediocre melody players <may> wreck a session, but mediocre backers <nearly always> wreck a session. In my experience generally have been the hardest to reform since they're often they don't know what they don't know and if in that state aren't interested in being coached. As far as they are concerned, they're doing a great job and I'm just being a session Nazi.
Occasionally, I'm surprised. We've had a backer who didn't realize what he was getting himself into, and given a few tune sets with deliberately non-obvious chord sequences realized that he was out of his league, stopped playing, and was very interested in whatever information we could provide him to learn the music. Reaffirmed my faith in humanity when that happened.
I'm fortunate in that the session I attend has backers that are very much into the music and study it. You can tell because they all play melody instruments as well; usually at least a couple. And we almost always have only one backer, rather than several banging away, because they sort of take turns; the ones who are not backing play their whistles, flutes, boxes, or whatever.
Problems in backing, like most musical skills, can be the product of nurture or nature. I put the information on accompaniment on my profile for this site to help those who will benefit from nurture, who need more information and advice to get better. If a person is putting C chords into the Merry Blacksmith, though (which is what I assume is happening by the statement that the accompanist is in D mix), that may be a sign that the problems may go deeper, and may be difficult to fix, no matter how hard you try. I have a friend, for example, who cannot sing at all, couldn't carry a tune if you gave him a bucket.
The fact that these 'problem' guitarists play with others who seem to value their contributions makes the picture a little more difficult to determine. Maybe within the narrower context of a band's repetoire, they do fine, it is only when they get in the broader repetoire of a session that they have trouble. If that is the case, then they can improve with good advice.
Keep trying to point them in the right direction before you give up on them. If you are not part of the solution, you could be part of the problem!
Getting backers to improve...
Getting backers to improve...
I've had the almost the same conversation lately with two different guitar players at two different sessions. Both were playing on a "mediocre" level; not completely bad, but too often using chords and rhythms that just didn't work, which ruined the tunes for me. One backer plays with a piper that I respect, the other is in a band with some melody players that I'm trying to get to play regularly at a new session, so I was looking for a polite way to tell them that their backing needs some work. The basic jist of both conversations was something like this:
Me: So what kind of ITM are you listening to at the moment?
Backer: Um, maybe 6 months ago I was listening to Solas.
Me: Cool, so do you like John Doyle's guitar playing?
Backer: Yeah, it's O.K.
Me: Have you tried copying his style or figuring out how he backs tunes?
Backer: No, that's too complicated for me, and he's playing in DADGAD anyway.
Me: (After giving up on trying to convince the backer that Doyle normally plays in dropped D) So how do you learn to accompany a new tune?
Backer: I don't know, I prefer to just figure out the backing by myself.
Me: So how do you do that?
Backer: I normally just play along in the session till the chords sound right.
So how do you motivate a backer to improve, learn new tunes and play better? What do you do with those that are happy being sub-par, or can't be bothered working out stuff at home? Kick them out because they're hopeless? Give them an ultimatum? Good cop bad cop?
# Posted on June 2nd 2011 by Bleedin' Heart
Re: Getting backers to improve...
A dozen years ago, it was not unusual for 4 guitarists to show up at our session. Today we have one. She's the only one who listened when we talked about knowing the tunes, feeling the pulse. The others didn't want to learn anything beyond boom-chuck and I IV V chords. Two of them dropped out because they got tired of even the polite statements that their rhythm wasn't appropriate for the tunes. The fourth one finally left after someone nicely asked him to lower his volume and find the beat, and when that didn't result in any change, told the guy to feck off. Our session is much better off for it.
Yes, it's a shame some people don't get it, and don't seem open to learning. With them, your choice comes down to rolling over and letting them ruin your session, or, after multiple attempts to guide them in a healthy direction, asking them to stop.
# Posted on June 2nd 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: Getting backers to improve...
We usually chase them off to one of the two local "guitar crasher/bodhran thumper" sessions and offer lessons, telling them that they can come back in a year or two and try again. It doesn't go over well, but you can't teach someone who has no respect for the music and refuses to learn.
# Posted on June 2nd 2011 by ElaineT
Re: Getting backers to improve...
First off hinting at someone that they should play in a certain way or other way.. is only going to work if that player is "really into you". /They aren't going to read anything into your conversation, or care if you are happy with their playing unless they love playing with you.
Also if you want someone to do something best to be direct, like you did, but why on earth would you want anyone who doesn't know exactly what they are doing to mimmick John Doyle? That kind of playing is bassy and pushes the tune around, why you would want anyone who isn't already a trusted backer to try that stuff.. is beyond me. Maybe what you want is for the person to be John Doyle... which is probably never going to happen.
If they won't play DADGAD, and they haven't a clue what they are doing... nor do they listen to any Irish music other than "Solas about 6 months ago"... you've lost me as to why you would worry too much about fixing them...like I said above unless they worship you, and want to play with you so bad they would do anything you say, then you are just talking to a wall.
# Posted on June 2nd 2011 by SandyBottoms
Re: Getting backers to improve...
before getting defensive about your guitar hero up there, I like his playing, when he is the one doing it... I just don't like how it sounds when people try to be him, and they've no clue what they are really doing.. I find it extremely annoying infact.
# Posted on June 2nd 2011 by SandyBottoms
Re: Getting backers to improve...
Now imagine for a moment if the mediocre player in question played a melody instrument:
You: So what kind of ITM are you listening to at the moment?
Mediocre Fiddle Player: ITM? You mean Irish music? Um, all kinds of people. Martin Hayes, Altan, I don’t know, lots.
You: Cool, so have you tried copying Martin Hayes’s style or figuring out how he does his variations?
Mediocre Fiddle Player: Well, no, not really. I’ve had some other things I’ve been working on…
You: (After giving up on trying to convince the fiddle player that Hayes is the best to emulate because he plays slow) So how do you work on your tunes?
Mediocre Fiddle Player: You know what, I’m going to go to the bar for a beer. Do you want me to order you something?
Condescending, much, Bleedin Heart?
# Posted on June 2nd 2011 by kennedy
Re: Getting backers to improve...
Now that I've gotten the snarky response out of my system, I'll suggest something helpful---when a player does something you *like*, let them know. Ask them to do it again. Maybe brag about the way they did that great thing. Maybe tell them how it reminded you of the way [insert legendary backer's name] also does that great thing. Positive reinforcement, get it?
# Posted on June 2nd 2011 by kennedy
Re: Getting backers to improve...
In fairness, a mediocre melody player doesn't often wreck a session in quite the irretrievable way that a guitar player who is "playing along in the session until the chords sound right" on every single set does.
I wouldn't suggest you use DADGAD or dropped D tuning as a measure though. A friend of mine took 3rd in All Ireland in 2006 for accompaniment playing standard tuning.
# Posted on June 2nd 2011 by ElaineT
Re: Getting backers to improve...
They have All-Ireland awards for backing?
what next, an All-Ireland Spoon Champion?
# Posted on June 2nd 2011 by I ♥ Dow
Re: Getting backers to improve...
I like Ann Conroy Burke's backing. I mean I really like it - what more is necessary? It's the perfect foil: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qcThzEOBv30
Suggesy backers play like this (one at a time), and especially to move away from the "wall of sound" style of thrash backing.
# Posted on June 2nd 2011 by RichardB
Re: Getting backers to improve...
"Suggest" (typo)
# Posted on June 2nd 2011 by RichardB
Re: Getting backers to improve...
'In fairness, a mediocre melody player doesn't often wreck a session in quite the irretrievable way that a guitar player who is "playing along in the session until the chords sound right" on every single set does.'
That, in fairness, is a perception usually adopted by mediocre players.
# Posted on June 2nd 2011 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: Getting backers to improve...
Well not wishing to be controversial here but has anybody ever considered that there maybe backers out there who are choosy about the melody players they'll back?
I can tell you that there are quite a few backers in that category, unquestionably so.
# Posted on June 2nd 2011 by Solidmahog
Re: Getting backers to improve...
Thanks for the reponses, guys.
@sandybottoms: John Doyle was what both backers had thrown in to the debate as a guitarist they knew. I was hoping to pick up on what they offered, be it Doyle, Cahill or any other backer. As a fiddle player, I listened to what Tommy Peoples, Kevin Burke and the likes were doing and tried to add it to my playing, so I was wondering what guitarists might inspire them to be a better backer, or if there are other strategies to wake them up.
@kennedy: I'll see where I can go with positive reinforcement. If the conversation had been going in the direction you posted, I would have enjoyed talking about different styles, what you can do with them, etc., but the backers don't seem to be currently interested in listening to ITM. I do sometimes worry about being condesending, so thanks for pointing that out!
@Will Harmon (or the backer you're talking about): What recordings did she listen to? How did she improve? Did she take lessons or go to workshops?
# Posted on June 2nd 2011 by Bleedin' Heart
Re: Getting backers to improve...
It's been suggested here already(By Richard) that over complicated and clever backing isn't strictly necessary. Likewise playing in DADGAD or any other non standard tunings.
A simple accompaniment if well done(That's usually the problem) is usually quite adequate and every bit as effective for most average (and above) sessions. In fact, most melody players would probably agree that "less is more".
Of course, for band arrangements and playing with the "big boys" a more imaginative approach is often desirable. However, I've even seen players such as Tommy Peoples and many others happily perform with very some basic backers in their time.
# Posted on June 2nd 2011 by Johnny Jay
Re: Getting backers to improve...
Playing devil's advocate:
I am wondering, do the others at Bleedin' Heart's session feel the same way about this "mediocre" backer?
Does everyone perceive a problem?
And, if not, then who really IS the problem?
I play regularly with a bunch where the bar for musicality is set low, but for sociability is set high. A lot of fun, but hardly a session for fast-movers.
So one question might be, "What kind of session is it you are playing in?" And "What are the standards the rest of the regulars are demanding?"
# Posted on June 2nd 2011 by Piece
Re: Getting backers to improve...
Oops.. I meant to say "some very basic"......
# Posted on June 2nd 2011 by Johnny Jay
Re: Getting backers to improve...
Piece, I'm not the only one who sees it as a problem, but I get your point that it's a matter of perception. I'm trying to get a session up and running with the few musicians available here, and I need to figure out what works, who has potential, and who might be detrimental to the development of the session in the long run. The guitarist couldn't figure out that reels like The Silver Spear or The Merry Blacksmith are in D major and not in D mixolydian, and I'm wondering if and how this can be fixed. I'll try some positive reinforcement, but I'm worried that he's just too comfortable with the skills he already has.
# Posted on June 2nd 2011 by Bleedin' Heart
Re: Getting backers to improve...
If you know and like a guitar player well enough to play with just you two then my advice would be to cultivate his playing. Get together outside of the session and help the player learn the tunes by playing along with you slowly. Comment when you have to but be liberal with praise when he gets it right.
Inappropriate, clumsy, insensitive backing is not limited to guitar players outside of Ireland, by the way. Few backers understand how tricky it is to accompany an Irish tune properly, or accept that they are the frame and not the picture.
# Posted on June 2nd 2011 by David Levine
Re: Getting backers to improve...
I'm in favor of regular beatings, electric shocks applied to the feet, and occasional water boarding.
# Posted on June 2nd 2011 by Seosamh Ui Sinan
Re: Getting backers to improve...
What you get up to in the privacy of your own home is your business, Seosamh Ui Sinan!
# Posted on June 2nd 2011 by RichardB
Re: Getting backers to improve...
I know a guitarist... who not only keeps rhythm, and understands the tunes well, but can even make up diddly bits, that aren't even Irish in nature, and will throw them in sometimes if a tune is sometimes on it's 5th time through or really played out and it really makes me laugh, it's as if he is throwing a flag on the field, and we realize somebody better move on. Now that is quite funny.... it's irreverant, yet, knowledgable and takes skill to pull off tastefully. So what makes a guitarist good? That is a tough one, cause this guy breaks all the rules..sometimes... , and we love him to pieces. 'oh and he stays off his bass strings almost all the time, he keeps it up higher, and a little quiet usually, probably how he gets away with it.
# Posted on June 2nd 2011 by SandyBottoms
Re: Getting backers to improve...
@ DFG yes they do have an all ireland spoon champianships.
# Posted on June 2nd 2011 by mise
Re: Getting backers to improve...
You might find that accompanists play better when they play with good melody players. It certainly makes the job easier. As Solidmahog says backers can be just as choosy as melody players and, trust me, a poor melody player can be just as bad as a poor accompanist.
# Posted on June 2nd 2011 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Getting backers to improve...
"'In fairness, a mediocre melody player doesn't often wreck a session in quite the irretrievable way that a guitar player who is "playing along in the session until the chords sound right" on every single set does.'
That, in fairness, is a perception usually adopted by mediocre players. "
@Prof P. - In fairness to ElaineT, a melody player is usually playing one note at a time; a guitarist, on the other hand, is capable of playing (and, in the case of a mediocre one, usually does play) six notes at once. Ergo, not only is the probability of playing a bum note increased sixfold, but there is the possibility of playing up to six bum notes all at once. Add to this the possibility of six notes all played out of time an you can see how a mediocre backer has greater session-wrecking power than a mediocre melody player.
I speak as a mediocre melody player and a mediocre guitarist.
# Posted on June 2nd 2011 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Getting backers to improve...
"You might find that accompanists play better when they play with good melody players. It certainly makes the job easier."
Indeed - that's the other side of the coin. A good backer can sound bad when they are playing with bad melody players because the onus is upon them to hold everyone else together and so, all the *musicality* in their playing goes to pot. A *really* good player (session player, at any rate), though - tune player or backer - makes playing easier for everyone, so that even the bad players play well.
# Posted on June 2nd 2011 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Getting backers to improve...
'@Prof P. - In fairness to ElaineT, a melody player is usually playing one note at a time; a guitarist, on the other hand, is capable of playing (and, in the case of a mediocre one, usually does play) six notes at once. '
Just to elaborrate a bit on what I said: I don't think the number of notes is really the problem. I think a poor or mediocre melody player is well and truly able to banjax a session. Slightly off rhythms, the lack of ability to adjust rhythmic approaches to those of the players you are playing with, not adapting on the spot to slightly different versions that can throw a whole night of music. I have seen it happen endless times. We have a group of players who visit every now and again, and I have played with them on occasion over a ten year timespan. When you hear them on their own you may think they're not too bad but when you play with them they always pull at the rhythms and the speed and it's highly annoying. It makes the night music just plain hard work. Now, they think they're god's gift to music and they haven't a clue what a strain they put on other musicians all around. And that's just one example out of many I could think of.
Now that was more or less what I was getting at. In my mind it's foolish to blame all ills on backers. Some can be annoying alright but they're not any worse than flute, accordeon or whatever players that don't quite get it.
I think melody players need to look at their own abilities just as hard as backers as poor or mediocre playing by either is equally detrimental.
# Posted on June 2nd 2011 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: Getting backers to improve...
@Prof. I tend to disagree... Imagine a bunch of strong players with perfect tone & perfect rhythm keeping skills (use yourself in this example), someone learning, and a BAD guitarist who can't get one chord in. Tell us again how ElaineT is wrong? I'm pretty sure she generally ranked severity (my take on it anyway)... If the melody is being carried, I'm pretty sure the accompaniment is what is throwing things off. I can see your example working if the main players cant carry the melody, then yes that is work and equally frustrating. Thats just a bad night...
# Posted on June 2nd 2011 by celticturntable
Re: Getting backers to improve...
Oh goodie - it's been almost a month since our last "backers" thread. I was beginning to worry.
Professor P - I would respectfully disagree with your theory that a poorly informed guitar player is no worse than a mediocre melody player. Although it may take a bit extra work to muddle through a tune with a novice melody player, a poor guitar player can throw a session off entirely. Put several in a session strumming all at once and the melody player can imagine the desperation a salmon feels swimming up-river against a rough boulder strewn current only to be eaten by a bear.
In my humble experience few melody players wander into a session and think the simple ownership of an instrument allows them to play immediately on every tune. This cannot be said of a many strummers. Have guitar, will play - knowledge of style and genre is an afterthought.
# Posted on June 2nd 2011 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Getting backers to improve...
This is a false dichotomy. Is a bad backer more destructive of a session than a bad melody player? Either can destroy a session. It would depend on the instrument played, for one thing. A quiet bad guitar vs a loud red accordion? Give me the guitar.
A loud bad guitar vs a quiet bad fiddler? Give me the fiddler. It's a question of who you can ignore more easily and that depends on their volume and where you're sitting.
Personally, I find it easier to play one on one with a challenged melody player than with a challenged guitar player.
# Posted on June 2nd 2011 by David Levine
Re: Getting backers to improve...
Is it just me or is the usual goal to get backers to not improv?
j/k
# Posted on June 2nd 2011 by Earl Cameron
Re: Getting backers to improve...
That's the thing... guitars have six strings, so not only do they tend to be loud, but they can play several melody-clashing notes at once.
# Posted on June 2nd 2011 by Whiddler
Re: Getting backers to improve...
What I hate the most in backers is the ones who can't keep a steady beat, who speed up mercilessly, obliviously, as they "get into" the tune. It really p*sses me off. I've had to stop playing in the middle of a tune and put my hand on the fret board of one of these guitar players, and made him stop playing. Another person, whom I really like, can't/won't fix her rushing problem; and yes, I did tell her about it and suggested she work with a metronome. Still friendly with both, but try not to sit next to them in sessions or ask them to gig with me.
I know this makes me sound like an ass; perhaps so. But I just had to finally take action. I think both understood.
# Posted on June 2nd 2011 by JPFlute
Re: Getting backers to improve...
It's definitely thought-provoking though. Remembering all the "session-wreckers" I've encountered (or been!) in the past, it's probably about 50-50 backers vs melody players.
The thing his comment made me realize is that, yes, when I was a beginner, and all the other players at the session were likewise, a guitar player really was the only thing that wrecked the session. But as I've tuned my ear and gotten better, now I have less tolerance for poor rhythm, missed notes, generally bad playing, and so on.
Of course, if you have a good core of solid musicians, then you can play through any bad musician, backer or otherwise. But looking back at my past, there were definitely periods and groups where only a really terrible backer could actually wreck the session.
That said, I *think* that I still have less tolerance for bad backers, than bad melody players, but I don't think it's really due only to their capacity to wreck a session through bad playing.
# Posted on June 2nd 2011 by Nico
Re: Getting backers to improve...
It depends how one defines bad playing, a matter of taste really, unless the player is not keeping an even tempo,or playing out of tune.
Apropos interpreation and style, there are a few people pontificating on this thread, whose playing barely reaches the mediocre, yet they clearly think that their playing is the bees knees, it is absolutely hilarious.
# Posted on June 2nd 2011 by Joseph Tailyour
Re: Getting backers to improve...
Bleedin' Heart, our backer has taken workshops with Donnough Hennessy, Tony McManus, and others, and also traveled to Ireland and gently joined in when invited to at local sessions. Mostly, she has a good ear and was willing to develop both it and her guitar skills so that she would be an asset and not a hinderance to our session.
She learned to listen so well that she also knows the value of sitting out. And she's a mighty singer. So we're lucky.
It helps to have a backer like ours who's really into the music and not just doing it as an aside to playing bluegrass or rock or whatever. Once your session has one good backer who shows up every week, it's easier to dissuade the dabblers.
# Posted on June 2nd 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: Getting backers to improve...
Ah great, the Ballydehob oracle has joined the fray..
# Posted on June 2nd 2011 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: Getting backers to improve...
Both poor melody players and poor backers have the ability to destroy a session. In the past, we've had issues with loud mandolin and tenor banjo players that just trashed the session.
It only takes one melody player living in their own private non-adaptive rhythmic and intonation bubble to suck all the energy out of a session, I don't care what the instrument is in their hands.
That being said, mediocre melody players <may> wreck a session, but mediocre backers <nearly always> wreck a session. In my experience generally have been the hardest to reform since they're often they don't know what they don't know and if in that state aren't interested in being coached. As far as they are concerned, they're doing a great job and I'm just being a session Nazi.
Occasionally, I'm surprised. We've had a backer who didn't realize what he was getting himself into, and given a few tune sets with deliberately non-obvious chord sequences realized that he was out of his league, stopped playing, and was very interested in whatever information we could provide him to learn the music. Reaffirmed my faith in humanity when that happened.
# Posted on June 2nd 2011 by Michael Eskin
Re: Getting backers to improve...
I'm fortunate in that the session I attend has backers that are very much into the music and study it. You can tell because they all play melody instruments as well; usually at least a couple. And we almost always have only one backer, rather than several banging away, because they sort of take turns; the ones who are not backing play their whistles, flutes, boxes, or whatever.
# Posted on June 2nd 2011 by oakuss
Re: Getting backers to improve...
Problems in backing, like most musical skills, can be the product of nurture or nature. I put the information on accompaniment on my profile for this site to help those who will benefit from nurture, who need more information and advice to get better. If a person is putting C chords into the Merry Blacksmith, though (which is what I assume is happening by the statement that the accompanist is in D mix), that may be a sign that the problems may go deeper, and may be difficult to fix, no matter how hard you try. I have a friend, for example, who cannot sing at all, couldn't carry a tune if you gave him a bucket.
The fact that these 'problem' guitarists play with others who seem to value their contributions makes the picture a little more difficult to determine. Maybe within the narrower context of a band's repetoire, they do fine, it is only when they get in the broader repetoire of a session that they have trouble. If that is the case, then they can improve with good advice.
Keep trying to point them in the right direction before you give up on them. If you are not part of the solution, you could be part of the problem!
# Posted on June 2nd 2011 by AlBrown
Re: Getting backers to improve...
"If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate..."
# Posted on June 3rd 2011 by Michael Eskin
Re: Getting backers to improve...
"....getting backers to improve"....?
suggest the Foreign Legion as a useful career move
# Posted on June 3rd 2011 by millionyears_bc
Re: Getting backers to improve...
Wild Colonial Boy was only recently a 'non Irish Woman'. How confused he must be.
# Posted on June 3rd 2011 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: Getting backers to improve...
What? He's not the one who was born and raised in Castlemaine?
# Posted on June 3rd 2011 by AlBrown
Re: Getting backers to improve...
“If confusion is the first step to knowledge, I must be a genius”
"I drink to the confusion of my enemies", quote Frank Sinatra.
# Posted on June 3rd 2011 by Joseph Tailyour