An observation-at some sessions in the US, there is a big deal made about what is appropriate, traditional, pure Irish, etc., usually by American players.
Irish players can-and will-get away with anything in a session-a bit of Van Morrison-a French Canadian or Swedish tune-Fiddler on the Roof, etc. It's considered loads of fun, inspired.
An American player does something different, it's considered a big no-no.
Comments?
I generally prefer the "anything goes" fun sessions to the uptight, "oh-no-am-I-going-to-offend-someone's-idea-of-purity" sessions-of course with a preponderance of the Irish tunes we love enough to try and master.
I hate "anything goes fun sessions" cause I have better things to do with four or so hours of my life than listen to people murder Van Morrison songs. Has feck all to do with where I live now or where I'm from. Has nothing to do with notions of "purity" and everything to do with "things I do want to hear/play" and "things I don't want to hear/play."
As an American sessioner, this is not my experience, and certainly not the attitude of sessioners I've met in other cities. People seem to have a good sense of when it may be appropriate to sing a song (irish or not), or play an odd tune or a non-irish tune, and have the manners to ask first.
In places that are somewhat removed from the core of the tradition, it is sometimes necessary to keep it from straying to far, because it *will* stray (into bluegrass and old time in the U.S. in particular). The thing is, it might stray like that from time to time in Ireland, but the difference is that the people involved know it's straying. In a place where the tradition isn't as deep, it will stray, and some people will still consider it to be "traditional Irish".
I don't mind that the "everything goes" sessions exist. I'd just rather not patronize them. And at the same time, I don't want my sessions to stray that much, so we tend to keep them on a bit of a tight leash...
Primrose lass, I think I know what you're getting at. But, it sounds like you found more than a few sessions with 2 sets of rules based on whether the player was born in Ireland or not. Either that, or you're saying you've met some uptight players who, generally speaking, tend to be west ponders.
Having said that I'd say my observation is similar to The Silver Spear & Reverend's.
I like my sessions and my whiskey straight please. I don't mind the occasional diversion, but if you're thinking about starting up that 2nd consecutive Bob Marley/Beatles/Dylan song, your third bluegrass solo over the top of a nice Irish reel because "you like to improvise," or yet another free-form djembe solo - my fellow sessioneers will likely ask you to cease and desist immediately. Let's be clear here. I stink at this music. I, like many other folks I know, spend a great deal of time to improve. So after a long work week and all that time spent trying to get somewhat functional at Irish music, you'll have to forgive me if I get impatient while somebody stops our session for the 4th time to play something utterly random like a Broadway show tune. Nothing personal. But there is a reason we call it an IRISH session and not "open mic night. " - and yes, I am American.
I accepted an invitation to an 'open/anything goes' session at someone's house once. It was horrible and scarred me for life. No one knew the same tunes, lots of noodling, blooze, bluegrass and some joker that sang his own country-folk compositions. OH EM GEE it was horrid. It was outside, 410 degrees and no beer but pale German stuff. It was the worst session ever. I had been there before and had a great time-lots of tunes and good players but I guess a few had moved on and it had turned in to a musical cluster f#@k
'American'? 'Irish'? How do you tell at you session Primrose Lass?
In my experience most people from the USA (there are other Americans as well of course, they're from Canada all the way to Patagonia...) anyway, US citizens usually claim to be French-Punjabi-Apache-Portuguese-Geordie-Vietnamese-Italian-German-Jewish-Irish but decide to go on and on about which ever nationality or culture their surname has randomly turned out to be. But the far most popular heritage to choose to be seems to be Irish.
'Hey! I'm Irish you know!'
'Oh, when did you emigrate to the States?'
'Oh! No! My great great great great granddaddy came from Offaly'
'Where did your 63 other great great great great grand parents come from?'
'Oh you know! From all over the world; Paris, Amritsar, Native American Oregon, Lisbon, Newcastle, Ho Chi Min City, Scicily, Hamburg, Krakow',
'Oh I see; And you think you're Irish?!'
I am stateside.
My local session is pretty open to variety.
A newcomer is welcome to share whatever they want to share, but the welcome is warmly continued only for those who can also contribute to the Irish element of our session. I think that any musician who is first recognizable as a competent Irish traditional player, will always be welcome to play any passing fancy from time to time, as long as they come back to the pure drop. One more thing, at the end of the night, anything goes.
....Ahh give us a break yhaalhouse, it's a big ugly country( our USA) devoid of any culture except the quest for monetery gain and mindless patriotism to our rats and fraedoms. The few goofy gentle souls that want more than that outta life don't really harm anyone.
Don't take my word for it, go to ancestry.com & see for yourself who's ancestors wrote the book on the blues, developed the formula for Syrup-Stik, **and** filed for BRITISH PATENTS NOS. 494514; 530164, 545386, 516731, 538564, 470720, & PENDING...
!
I don't like Beatles songs at sessions. They are now cropping up at my local session on a regular basis. Since I do not hide my identity too well with my nom de plume, I state this at my own peril, but there it is.
Primrose Lass, you should come to Cornwall ( that's the little Duchy on the SW toe of England ) if you like mixed sessions. Everyone's competent, but they're not limited by local or ITM rules - heard a great version of "Plastic Jesus" at Cadgewith, for instance.
In our case it depends who turns up on the night. Some of us know more songs, some of us know more trad tunes. It works for The Tranatlantic Sessions (though I realise that's not everone's cup of tea/capppucino)
From my studies, it seems that the only guidelines for session etiquitte is common courtesy. Courtesy to the others there, and courtesy to the music. Which is probably why instruments get a harder time than any person. Some instruments just aren't right for the music.
Some sessions I have been to where only the Pure Drop (or certain players' concept of the PD) is allowed...and that includes:
NO GUITARS allowed,
grimacing and groaning and leaving the table when a box player playd Doggy in the Window before launching into some wicked Mazurka's
...and yet they allow spoons and crap bodhrans to drown the music out,
are dull, miserable affairs, with hardly a smile or a joke cracked, except some boorish comments by said "percussionists". What a misery to endure.
I been to other half and half sessions and they have been a lot more fun.
This is what goes down at our session. We play tunes, and play more tunes, and in between a few we get the "whats the name of that one?" then conversations may start. But most of the night we're randomly dropping off tunes, which i just happen to enjoy. But then, if you only got 1 session a month, wouldn't you play all night and leave the diversions for your "jam sessions"?
If I want to play ITM (with others), I go to our session.
If I want to play old-time, I know where and who to call for that.
If I want to play a mix of everything.... including many other types including some Irish tunes, and old-time, we pretty much do that at home. And have people over. (or gig, where we do a little bit of everything, but don't gig so much anymore, don't like hauling and setting up gear.)
I have no desire to play other types of music at our session. I have plenty of opportunities to play music, of many types.
i'm with wyogal. Isn't the point of a Session to play Irish music? I mean, if i got to our session, and everyone decided to have a Bluegrass Jam on the Irish Session night, no matter how much fun it was, it would be a bit disappointing.
The only guidelines for session etiquitte: courtesy.
I agree with fiddlelearner. Sessions vary. There are no rules. Some people (me) go to play nothing but Irish music. Other people go for a free pint and some chat and maybe a Dylan or Beatles song. For some it's a sing-along or a chance to sell raffle tickets. None of us has a handle on what it's "supposed" to be.
If your local session isn't what you want it to be, then start your own. But don't begrudge people who are new to ITM or who are just having a good time.
David - nobody is begrudging anyone. We are just simply stating the obvious. If you are at an Irish session, expect to play mostly Irish music. If you throw a Halloween party the expectation is that folks show up in a costume. If its a Star Wars convention, don't come dressed as Captain Kirk. You don't join a motorcycle club with a Schwinn 10-speed. When going to a rodeo don't demand everyone else stop and respect your 5 minute dressage demonstration. You shouldn't demand a cricket match breakout in the middle of the soccer pitch mid-game. I simply disagree with the expectation or sense of entitlement that some folks have regarding these very specific musical gatherings. Not begrudging - just asking others to have a clue about where they are.
There's a perfect answer to all this at my local regular sesh. The pub next door happens to have an Open Mic/ Acoustic Nonse(nse) night. So all the BLooZ harp botherers, country & western singers, Bob Dylan inpersonators, 1970's folk club types, the endless improvized festival music bores and so forth gravitate there. Leaving me alone to wreck the Irish Trad session.
I think a good answer is that if anyone plays non-ITM and someone isn't happy with that, then it is time for them to start a few rip-roaring sets with as much craic as possible. That's usually enough to remind us what we are there for.
I generally prefer the "anything goes" fun sessions to the uptight, "oh-no-am-I-going-to-offend-someone's-idea-of-purity" sessions-of course with a preponderance of the Irish tunes we love enough to try and master.
# Posted on May 26th 2011 by primrose lass
I tend to play with people who are secure enough, Matt Molloy, Brendy Mulholland, John McSherry, Michael McGoldrick, Liam Og O'Flynn to enjoy "anything goes" sessions.
Insecure types will not like that type of session.
ok, so it's insecure to want an "irish music only" session bodhran bliss? There's a Bluegrass and Old-Time jam 3 blocks away from my house, why would i want to drive 30 miles outof my way, expecting Irish, and end up getting Bluegrass?
Interesting. That has never happened even once that I can remember in the 10+ years we've had our session going at The Ould Sod here in San Diego. Certainly never a Beatles song, maybe a crossover Old Time tune from someone who was brand new, but we've just never had to deal with it. Interesting that it's an issue other places.
Bliss could be just taking the p*ss, as that's what he does. Better not to take his posts too seriously. ;)
However, there is something to be said for the way things are in places with different dominant traditions. In Belfast, where he's from, there's an incredibly strong Irish session scene and most of the musicians associated with it know the score and where the boundaries are, so if someone does the odd Bob Dylan song or Old-Time tune, there's no risk of it becoming a singalong or an Old Time jam. In parts of the US (or rather most of it), there is no real knowledge of what an Irish session is, other than among the comparatively weensie population of people who play it. If you let a few people play Old Time tunes and get carried away with it, it's amazing how fast it becomes an Old Time Jam, or worse, a ragged, incohesive affair where everyone does their own thing and no one knows the same tunes.
Is there a way to figure out the population of ITM musicians in the States? In the 2nd largest state there's only 19 known sessions posted on this website.
I googled "Irish Traditional Music in America" and the first link that came up was "Celtic music in the United States" ... that website is getting to be disappointing -.-
"... that website is getting to be disappointing "
Why - because it uses the term "Celtic"?
It may be taboo to use such a title in certain places, but the wiki article is reasonable and separates Irish and Scottish music - doesn't say much about Breton or Galician influence in the US though!
If you are ever in Scotland at the beginning of January, Jerone, don't boycott the Celtic Connections festival in Glasgow because of its name. You'll be missing out.
A Field Guide to North American Irish Session Stereotypes
Paul Puredrop
Elitecus Snobulae
Primary Instruments: Fiddle, Flute, Whistle
Features and Behavior: Upturned nose, 'Holier than thou' condescending attitude; Large cinder-block sized chip on shoulder; Takes his music very seriously; Despises other species like Peter Pagan and Sean Southie and takes perverse pleasure in demoralizing newbies; Hates all backers and bodhran players; Regularly blogs on internet Irish music forums to complain how others are 'ruining' Irish Traditional Music; Hates the term ITM; Has been known to storm out of a session when someone plays a tune he thinks is inferior; Believes he is a true 'caretaker' of the tradition. Primary Habitat: High level sessions in large cities, anger management therapy
There was a great thread here last year describing many colourful and varied "session species." It would have made Linnaeus proud. I am sure our "archivist" could dredge it up. Ben?
Not so much because it uses the word "Celtic" more so, it sent me to a place that had nothing to do with Traditional music. They taught me here that "Celtic" and "Traditional" are very, very different. But google as a whole is very frustrating to use. I only type it in outof habit. I love the "Bing" advertisments, but they have gotten to be quite the same way if what you're searching for doesn't fit into their little criteria.
"They taught me here that "Celtic" and "Traditional" are very, very different."
They can be synonymous, depending on who uses the term and in what context. There is no pan celtic musical idiom, but you could (and people do) use the blanket term to cover the traditional music of all the Celtic speaking nations ('nations' used to describe 'peoples' , not countries). Just because the term is abused doesn't make it invalid. Too many Elitecus Snobulae around. Even the word 'traditional' could be said to be ambiguous when describing some of the music played under the 'traditional Irish' banner.
Which does indeed have something to do with traditional music - moreover, Irish traditional music.
There could be a danger of strong opinions being used to 'teach' strong opinions.
Bliss could be just taking the p*ss, as that's what he does. Better not to take his posts too seriously. ;)
However, there is something to be said for the way things are in places with different dominant traditions. In Belfast, where he's from, there's an incredibly strong Irish session scene and most of the musicians associated with it know the score and where the boundaries are, so if someone does the odd Bob Dylan song or Old-Time tune, there's no risk of it becoming a singalong or an Old Time jam. In parts of the US (or rather most of it), there is no real knowledge of what an Irish session is, other than among the comparatively weensie population of people who play it. If you let a few people play Old Time tunes and get carried away with it, it's amazing how fast it becomes an Old Time Jam, or worse, a ragged, incohesive affair where everyone does their own thing and no one knows the same tunes.
# Posted on May 28th 2011 by TheSilverSpear
Thank you Silver for answering Fiddle learner.
The people I play with are not going to have kittens if someone sings a Dylan song, they will simply return to Irish afterwards.
So I wasn't really "taking the p*ss", just bad at explaining myself.
Bliss, the difference (as TSS pointed out) is that when the session is experienced and everybody knows the boundaries, they will "simply return to Irish afterwards".
But out in the wilds, where the tradition isn't as deep, it might not "simply return to Irish afterwards". It might end up being like that forever, because the guy at the bar just drunkenly realized that he knows some James Taylor songs, and so he brings all his singer/songwriter buddies next week, expecting to get to do their thing all night. And even though they might understand that it's supposed to be Irish trad music, they don't really know how to play it, and it has now turned into a jumbled mess of crap music.
If you care about playing Irish trad music well, there are certainly reasons to try to keep a handle on your own sessions, even if people think you're being too purist, condescending, or exclusive. A session is, by its very nature, exclusive to a large degree. It includes Irish music, and generally excludes other kinds of music. Exclusivity isn't a bad thing in this case.
That's a scary scene you painted Reverend... But i doubt it would happen. Surely i'm not the only one that wants to play Irish music lol. Like i said above, there's an abundance of Old-Time and Bluegrass jams, but a fine lack of Irish Traditional Music Sessions.
Oh yes, if your out of Ireland, and you want to play trad in a session with some like minded friends in an open session ,you have to be pretty strict or get swamped! I know!! Just try to be polite and explain the situation.
:ike the Rev says, it starts with medicinal wine in a teaspoon, but soon you are dealing with beer in a bottle, billiard tables with pockets on them, knickerbockers buckled below the knees, and the end of civilization as we know it.
Best to draw a line right up front!
a little diversity can be great, I'll give anyone the time of day for a one or two diversions. However, if they want to do two or more, or do it week after week - it had better be good & it had better be *damn good*. Nothing is worse than having to sit out valuable session time so some dingbat can have his/her limelight.
Dingbat is a great word. Ever try to pitch a tent in a wind storm? Grownups in charge of daycare centers(read creches) would understand. Folks, you have to experience a "Celtic" session in the US.
Bliss, the difference (as TSS pointed out) is that when the session is experienced and everybody knows the boundaries, they will "simply return to Irish afterwards".
# Posted on May 28th 2011 by Reverend
A thread with an echo!!!
I just said that reverend, and yes, the rest of your post is correct.
I was referring to those still resident in the US, the majority of whom don't even have a passport. It could be where these distorted views of European life come from.
I'm sure you do have the advantage. When you lived here, were you happy -- even a little -- or were you constantly miserable from all the US pathology? These days, to help form my view of the outside world, I factor-in my observations of the behavior of expats. Some do you credit; some not. It would seem our guys "over there" have significantly lowered the bar for people like Silver Spear. (That should work to your advantage, Silver. Don't blow it!) BTW Weejie, did you play at sessions here?
Was it nominalIy an Irish session, but mostly Ol' Timey people played Ol' Time Music there? I hope you got to hear informal music in some place like West Virginia.
"Was it nominalIy an Irish session, but mostly Ol' Timey people played Ol' Time Music there?"
It was Irish alright - but a Japanese whistle player and an English flute player led it. I didn't get out to West Virginia, unfortunately. Mostly Kentucky, Ohio and Indiana.
My sister did a year as a "Nurse on Horseback" out of the UofK at Lexington, back in '74. She said the music was up in the mountains alright; only well hidden. So were the stills. If I had come over from Scotland, I would chuck the Trad circuit and go looking for good Blues.
My friend worked with Les Blank on his movies about the The Wild Tchoupitoulas, Lightnin' Hopkins, Mance Lipscomb .... So, that & life in general I've been around various Texas & Louisiana musical genres growing up. I still love it, it's just not anything I play.
Here's my distorted take of how I envisage West Virginia; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7qieYC4VWM
Evenin' Ben. We're talking, indirectly, about how us "Myrkins" might fare better persuing our own music. I'm thinking of chucking all this unremitting Trad nonsense, and taking up Country and Western music. They say the transformation procedure is painless; the surgeon goes into your brain by way of the nose, takes out a piece of your brain...
"Evenin' Ben. We're talking, indirectly, about how us "Myrkins" might fare better persuing our own music. I'm thinking of chucking all this unremitting Trad nonsense, and taking up Country and Western music"
You'd need to visit Glasgow for the C&W scene - or Golspie. Bit like your Celtic buddies in the States, I would imagine.
Can't speak for the South but we had some fantastic Irish sessions in Denver/Boulder. Had to keep the lid on them though and chase away bluegrass players and Bob Dylan impersonators with a garden hose.
The fact is that if you dont run a tight ship, then the session WILL be over run by well meaning, but annoying, singer songwriters, or whatever. Different situations call for different guidelines.@AQ >>Ever try to pitch a tent in a wind storm? <<Oh yes, successfully, more times than I can remember as I say;'' If you cant put a tent up in a storm , you cant keep a tent up in a storm! ''
Mind you The weather yous get in the States recently can be a lot rougher than Scottish, Irish and Welsh mountains.! A Welsh mountain during a storm in a big tent with a Hammock ! Thats a ride! but one thats survivable!
Emily, contrary to the moniker Jon associates with me, I am not able to locate everything on the site. I have a fairly good memory,though. I have not read the thread you suggested, but it was one from Mix.
Whew1 Thanks for your comments, everyone, I was away for awhile and just got to read it all. I'm with bodrhanbliss-if the musicianship is topnotch, the "anything goes" is not tough to take. Have fun playing away-99% Irish-and please don't have any kittens!
Session "rules"
Session "rules"
An observation-at some sessions in the US, there is a big deal made about what is appropriate, traditional, pure Irish, etc., usually by American players.
Irish players can-and will-get away with anything in a session-a bit of Van Morrison-a French Canadian or Swedish tune-Fiddler on the Roof, etc. It's considered loads of fun, inspired.
An American player does something different, it's considered a big no-no.
Comments?
I generally prefer the "anything goes" fun sessions to the uptight, "oh-no-am-I-going-to-offend-someone's-idea-of-purity" sessions-of course with a preponderance of the Irish tunes we love enough to try and master.
# Posted on May 26th 2011 by primrose lass
Re: Session "rules"
I hate "anything goes fun sessions" cause I have better things to do with four or so hours of my life than listen to people murder Van Morrison songs. Has feck all to do with where I live now or where I'm from. Has nothing to do with notions of "purity" and everything to do with "things I do want to hear/play" and "things I don't want to hear/play."
# Posted on May 26th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Session "rules"
Gotcha. Actually nobody murdered anything. I take it you don't like Sharon Shannon, for example.
# Posted on May 26th 2011 by primrose lass
Re: Session "rules"
I like Sharon Shannon's playing a lot. I'm not particularly fond of all of her albums.
# Posted on May 26th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Session "rules"
Liking someone's playing doesn't necessarily mean you have the urge to play their tunes on your night out though.
# Posted on May 26th 2011 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: Session "rules"
OP, did you get caught committing what others deemed "a big no-no?" If so, would you tell us what it was?
# Posted on May 26th 2011 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: Session "rules"
Surly piper response win! Three out of three!
# Posted on May 26th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Session "rules"
I do not know.
# Posted on May 26th 2011 by horatio spens the blademan
Re: Session "rules"
If I don't like what is happening, I haven't been tied to a chair yet, I can leave. Another night may be better.
# Posted on May 26th 2011 by Charlie the Fiddler
Re: Session "rules"
As an American sessioner, this is not my experience, and certainly not the attitude of sessioners I've met in other cities. People seem to have a good sense of when it may be appropriate to sing a song (irish or not), or play an odd tune or a non-irish tune, and have the manners to ask first.
Personally, I like a little variety.
# Posted on May 26th 2011 by banshee misfortune
Re: Session "rules"
In places that are somewhat removed from the core of the tradition, it is sometimes necessary to keep it from straying to far, because it *will* stray (into bluegrass and old time in the U.S. in particular). The thing is, it might stray like that from time to time in Ireland, but the difference is that the people involved know it's straying. In a place where the tradition isn't as deep, it will stray, and some people will still consider it to be "traditional Irish".
I don't mind that the "everything goes" sessions exist. I'd just rather not patronize them. And at the same time, I don't want my sessions to stray that much, so we tend to keep them on a bit of a tight leash...
# Posted on May 26th 2011 by Reverend
Re: Session "rules"
@horatio spens the blademan --
you don't know much, do you?
# Posted on May 26th 2011 by gam
Re: Session "rules"
Primrose lass, I think I know what you're getting at. But, it sounds like you found more than a few sessions with 2 sets of rules based on whether the player was born in Ireland or not. Either that, or you're saying you've met some uptight players who, generally speaking, tend to be west ponders.
Having said that I'd say my observation is similar to The Silver Spear & Reverend's.
# Posted on May 26th 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: Session "rules"
I like my sessions and my whiskey straight please. I don't mind the occasional diversion, but if you're thinking about starting up that 2nd consecutive Bob Marley/Beatles/Dylan song, your third bluegrass solo over the top of a nice Irish reel because "you like to improvise," or yet another free-form djembe solo - my fellow sessioneers will likely ask you to cease and desist immediately. Let's be clear here. I stink at this music. I, like many other folks I know, spend a great deal of time to improve. So after a long work week and all that time spent trying to get somewhat functional at Irish music, you'll have to forgive me if I get impatient while somebody stops our session for the 4th time to play something utterly random like a Broadway show tune. Nothing personal. But there is a reason we call it an IRISH session and not "open mic night. " - and yes, I am American.
# Posted on May 26th 2011 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Session "rules"
I accepted an invitation to an 'open/anything goes' session at someone's house once. It was horrible and scarred me for life. No one knew the same tunes, lots of noodling, blooze, bluegrass and some joker that sang his own country-folk compositions. OH EM GEE it was horrid. It was outside, 410 degrees and no beer but pale German stuff. It was the worst session ever. I had been there before and had a great time-lots of tunes and good players but I guess a few had moved on and it had turned in to a musical cluster f#@k
# Posted on May 26th 2011 by shanty
Re: Session "rules"
'American'? 'Irish'? How do you tell at you session Primrose Lass?
In my experience most people from the USA (there are other Americans as well of course, they're from Canada all the way to Patagonia...) anyway, US citizens usually claim to be French-Punjabi-Apache-Portuguese-Geordie-Vietnamese-Italian-German-Jewish-Irish but decide to go on and on about which ever nationality or culture their surname has randomly turned out to be. But the far most popular heritage to choose to be seems to be Irish.
'Hey! I'm Irish you know!'
'Oh, when did you emigrate to the States?'
'Oh! No! My great great great great granddaddy came from Offaly'
'Where did your 63 other great great great great grand parents come from?'
'Oh you know! From all over the world; Paris, Amritsar, Native American Oregon, Lisbon, Newcastle, Ho Chi Min City, Scicily, Hamburg, Krakow',
'Oh I see; And you think you're Irish?!'
# Posted on May 26th 2011 by yhaalhouse
Re: Session "rules"
I am stateside.
My local session is pretty open to variety.
A newcomer is welcome to share whatever they want to share, but the welcome is warmly continued only for those who can also contribute to the Irish element of our session. I think that any musician who is first recognizable as a competent Irish traditional player, will always be welcome to play any passing fancy from time to time, as long as they come back to the pure drop. One more thing, at the end of the night, anything goes.
# Posted on May 26th 2011 by halfwaythere
Re: Session "rules"
# Posted on May 26th 2011 by shanty
Sessions where Van is permitted!
Don't take my word for it, go to ancestry.com & see for yourself who's ancestors wrote the book on the blues, developed the formula for Syrup-Stik, **and** filed for BRITISH PATENTS NOS. 494514; 530164, 545386, 516731, 538564, 470720, & PENDING...
!
# Posted on May 27th 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: Session "rules"
I don't like Beatles songs at sessions. They are now cropping up at my local session on a regular basis. Since I do not hide my identity too well with my nom de plume, I state this at my own peril, but there it is.
# Posted on May 27th 2011 by AlBrown
Re: Session "rules"
Primrose Lass, you should come to Cornwall ( that's the little Duchy on the SW toe of England ) if you like mixed sessions. Everyone's competent, but they're not limited by local or ITM rules - heard a great version of "Plastic Jesus" at Cadgewith, for instance.
# Posted on May 27th 2011 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Session "rules"
In our case it depends who turns up on the night. Some of us know more songs, some of us know more trad tunes. It works for The Tranatlantic Sessions (though I realise that's not everone's cup of tea/capppucino)
# Posted on May 27th 2011 by harmonic miner
Re: Session "rules"
From my studies, it seems that the only guidelines for session etiquitte is common courtesy. Courtesy to the others there, and courtesy to the music. Which is probably why instruments get a harder time than any person. Some instruments just aren't right for the music.
# Posted on May 27th 2011 by fiddlelearner
Re: Session "rules"
Some sessions I have been to where only the Pure Drop (or certain players' concept of the PD) is allowed...and that includes:
NO GUITARS allowed,
grimacing and groaning and leaving the table when a box player playd Doggy in the Window before launching into some wicked Mazurka's
...and yet they allow spoons and crap bodhrans to drown the music out,
are dull, miserable affairs, with hardly a smile or a joke cracked, except some boorish comments by said "percussionists". What a misery to endure.
I been to other half and half sessions and they have been a lot more fun.
# Posted on May 27th 2011 by 'S dat you, O'Flibberty?
Re: Session "rules"
This is what goes down at our session. We play tunes, and play more tunes, and in between a few we get the "whats the name of that one?" then conversations may start. But most of the night we're randomly dropping off tunes, which i just happen to enjoy. But then, if you only got 1 session a month, wouldn't you play all night and leave the diversions for your "jam sessions"?
# Posted on May 27th 2011 by fiddlelearner
Re: Session "rules"
If I want to play ITM (with others), I go to our session.
If I want to play old-time, I know where and who to call for that.
If I want to play a mix of everything.... including many other types including some Irish tunes, and old-time, we pretty much do that at home. And have people over. (or gig, where we do a little bit of everything, but don't gig so much anymore, don't like hauling and setting up gear.)
I have no desire to play other types of music at our session. I have plenty of opportunities to play music, of many types.
# Posted on May 27th 2011 by Wyogal
Re: Session "rules"
i'm with wyogal. Isn't the point of a Session to play Irish music? I mean, if i got to our session, and everyone decided to have a Bluegrass Jam on the Irish Session night, no matter how much fun it was, it would be a bit disappointing.
# Posted on May 27th 2011 by fiddlelearner
The only guidelines for session etiquitte: courtesy.
I agree with fiddlelearner. Sessions vary. There are no rules. Some people (me) go to play nothing but Irish music. Other people go for a free pint and some chat and maybe a Dylan or Beatles song. For some it's a sing-along or a chance to sell raffle tickets. None of us has a handle on what it's "supposed" to be.
If your local session isn't what you want it to be, then start your own. But don't begrudge people who are new to ITM or who are just having a good time.
# Posted on May 27th 2011 by David Levine
Re: Session "rules"
David - nobody is begrudging anyone. We are just simply stating the obvious. If you are at an Irish session, expect to play mostly Irish music. If you throw a Halloween party the expectation is that folks show up in a costume. If its a Star Wars convention, don't come dressed as Captain Kirk. You don't join a motorcycle club with a Schwinn 10-speed. When going to a rodeo don't demand everyone else stop and respect your 5 minute dressage demonstration. You shouldn't demand a cricket match breakout in the middle of the soccer pitch mid-game. I simply disagree with the expectation or sense of entitlement that some folks have regarding these very specific musical gatherings. Not begrudging - just asking others to have a clue about where they are.
# Posted on May 27th 2011 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Session "rules"
in other words it should do what it says on the tin?
# Posted on May 27th 2011 by 'S dat you, O'Flibberty?
Re: Session "rules"
There's a perfect answer to all this at my local regular sesh. The pub next door happens to have an Open Mic/ Acoustic Nonse(nse) night. So all the BLooZ harp botherers, country & western singers, Bob Dylan inpersonators, 1970's folk club types, the endless improvized festival music bores and so forth gravitate there. Leaving me alone to wreck the Irish Trad session.
# Posted on May 27th 2011 by yhaalhouse
Re: Session "rules"
I think a good answer is that if anyone plays non-ITM and someone isn't happy with that, then it is time for them to start a few rip-roaring sets with as much craic as possible. That's usually enough to remind us what we are there for.
# Posted on May 27th 2011 by banshee misfortune
Re: Session "rules"
I generally prefer the "anything goes" fun sessions to the uptight, "oh-no-am-I-going-to-offend-someone's-idea-of-purity" sessions-of course with a preponderance of the Irish tunes we love enough to try and master.
# Posted on May 26th 2011 by primrose lass
I tend to play with people who are secure enough, Matt Molloy, Brendy Mulholland, John McSherry, Michael McGoldrick, Liam Og O'Flynn to enjoy "anything goes" sessions.
Insecure types will not like that type of session.
# Posted on May 27th 2011 by bodhran bliss
Re: Session "rules"
If all your sessions have as experienced musicians as they are it is no surprise.
# Posted on May 27th 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: Session "rules"
ok, so it's insecure to want an "irish music only" session bodhran bliss? There's a Bluegrass and Old-Time jam 3 blocks away from my house, why would i want to drive 30 miles outof my way, expecting Irish, and end up getting Bluegrass?
# Posted on May 28th 2011 by fiddlelearner
Re: Session "rules"
Interesting. That has never happened even once that I can remember in the 10+ years we've had our session going at The Ould Sod here in San Diego. Certainly never a Beatles song, maybe a crossover Old Time tune from someone who was brand new, but we've just never had to deal with it. Interesting that it's an issue other places.
# Posted on May 28th 2011 by Michael Eskin
Re: Session "rules"
Bliss could be just taking the p*ss, as that's what he does. Better not to take his posts too seriously. ;)
However, there is something to be said for the way things are in places with different dominant traditions. In Belfast, where he's from, there's an incredibly strong Irish session scene and most of the musicians associated with it know the score and where the boundaries are, so if someone does the odd Bob Dylan song or Old-Time tune, there's no risk of it becoming a singalong or an Old Time jam. In parts of the US (or rather most of it), there is no real knowledge of what an Irish session is, other than among the comparatively weensie population of people who play it. If you let a few people play Old Time tunes and get carried away with it, it's amazing how fast it becomes an Old Time Jam, or worse, a ragged, incohesive affair where everyone does their own thing and no one knows the same tunes.
# Posted on May 28th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Session "rules"
Is there a way to figure out the population of ITM musicians in the States? In the 2nd largest state there's only 19 known sessions posted on this website.
# Posted on May 28th 2011 by fiddlelearner
Re: Session "rules"
I googled "Irish Traditional Music in America" and the first link that came up was "Celtic music in the United States" ... that website is getting to be disappointing -.-
# Posted on May 28th 2011 by fiddlelearner
Re: Session "rules"
"... that website is getting to be disappointing "
Why - because it uses the term "Celtic"?
It may be taboo to use such a title in certain places, but the wiki article is reasonable and separates Irish and Scottish music - doesn't say much about Breton or Galician influence in the US though!
If you are ever in Scotland at the beginning of January, Jerone, don't boycott the Celtic Connections festival in Glasgow because of its name. You'll be missing out.
# Posted on May 28th 2011 by Weejie
Re: Session "rules"
http://www.irishseisiun.org/about-irish-sessions.htm
A Field Guide to North American Irish Session Stereotypes
Paul Puredrop
Elitecus Snobulae
Primary Instruments: Fiddle, Flute, Whistle
Features and Behavior: Upturned nose, 'Holier than thou' condescending attitude; Large cinder-block sized chip on shoulder; Takes his music very seriously; Despises other species like Peter Pagan and Sean Southie and takes perverse pleasure in demoralizing newbies; Hates all backers and bodhran players; Regularly blogs on internet Irish music forums to complain how others are 'ruining' Irish Traditional Music; Hates the term ITM; Has been known to storm out of a session when someone plays a tune he thinks is inferior; Believes he is a true 'caretaker' of the tradition. Primary Habitat: High level sessions in large cities, anger management therapy
# Posted on May 28th 2011 by Weejie
Re: Session "rules"
There was a great thread here last year describing many colourful and varied "session species." It would have made Linnaeus proud. I am sure our "archivist" could dredge it up. Ben?
# Posted on May 28th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Session "rules"
Not so much because it uses the word "Celtic" more so, it sent me to a place that had nothing to do with Traditional music. They taught me here that "Celtic" and "Traditional" are very, very different. But google as a whole is very frustrating to use. I only type it in outof habit. I love the "Bing" advertisments, but they have gotten to be quite the same way if what you're searching for doesn't fit into their little criteria.
# Posted on May 28th 2011 by fiddlelearner
Re: Session "rules"
"They taught me here that "Celtic" and "Traditional" are very, very different."
They can be synonymous, depending on who uses the term and in what context. There is no pan celtic musical idiom, but you could (and people do) use the blanket term to cover the traditional music of all the Celtic speaking nations ('nations' used to describe 'peoples' , not countries). Just because the term is abused doesn't make it invalid. Too many Elitecus Snobulae around. Even the word 'traditional' could be said to be ambiguous when describing some of the music played under the 'traditional Irish' banner.
When I googled "Celtic music in the United States", first hit was a wiki article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtic_music_in_the_United_States
Which does indeed have something to do with traditional music - moreover, Irish traditional music.
There could be a danger of strong opinions being used to 'teach' strong opinions.
We're a' Jock Tamson's bairns (IMO).
# Posted on May 28th 2011 by Weejie
Re: Session "rules"
Re: Session "rules"
Bliss could be just taking the p*ss, as that's what he does. Better not to take his posts too seriously. ;)
However, there is something to be said for the way things are in places with different dominant traditions. In Belfast, where he's from, there's an incredibly strong Irish session scene and most of the musicians associated with it know the score and where the boundaries are, so if someone does the odd Bob Dylan song or Old-Time tune, there's no risk of it becoming a singalong or an Old Time jam. In parts of the US (or rather most of it), there is no real knowledge of what an Irish session is, other than among the comparatively weensie population of people who play it. If you let a few people play Old Time tunes and get carried away with it, it's amazing how fast it becomes an Old Time Jam, or worse, a ragged, incohesive affair where everyone does their own thing and no one knows the same tunes.
# Posted on May 28th 2011 by TheSilverSpear
Thank you Silver for answering Fiddle learner.
The people I play with are not going to have kittens if someone sings a Dylan song, they will simply return to Irish afterwards.
So I wasn't really "taking the p*ss", just bad at explaining myself.
# Posted on May 28th 2011 by bodhran bliss
Re: Session "rules"
Bliss, the difference (as TSS pointed out) is that when the session is experienced and everybody knows the boundaries, they will "simply return to Irish afterwards".
But out in the wilds, where the tradition isn't as deep, it might not "simply return to Irish afterwards". It might end up being like that forever, because the guy at the bar just drunkenly realized that he knows some James Taylor songs, and so he brings all his singer/songwriter buddies next week, expecting to get to do their thing all night. And even though they might understand that it's supposed to be Irish trad music, they don't really know how to play it, and it has now turned into a jumbled mess of crap music.
If you care about playing Irish trad music well, there are certainly reasons to try to keep a handle on your own sessions, even if people think you're being too purist, condescending, or exclusive. A session is, by its very nature, exclusive to a large degree. It includes Irish music, and generally excludes other kinds of music. Exclusivity isn't a bad thing in this case.
# Posted on May 28th 2011 by Reverend
Re: Session "rules"
That's a scary scene you painted Reverend... But i doubt it would happen. Surely i'm not the only one that wants to play Irish music lol. Like i said above, there's an abundance of Old-Time and Bluegrass jams, but a fine lack of Irish Traditional Music Sessions.
# Posted on May 28th 2011 by fiddlelearner
Re: Session "rules"
Oh yes, if your out of Ireland, and you want to play trad in a session with some like minded friends in an open session ,you have to be pretty strict or get swamped! I know!! Just try to be polite and explain the situation.
# Posted on May 28th 2011 by piobagusfidil
Re: Session "rules"
:ike the Rev says, it starts with medicinal wine in a teaspoon, but soon you are dealing with beer in a bottle, billiard tables with pockets on them, knickerbockers buckled below the knees, and the end of civilization as we know it.
Best to draw a line right up front!
# Posted on May 28th 2011 by AlBrown
Re: Session "rules"
a little diversity can be great, I'll give anyone the time of day for a one or two diversions. However, if they want to do two or more, or do it week after week - it had better be good & it had better be *damn good*. Nothing is worse than having to sit out valuable session time so some dingbat can have his/her limelight.
# Posted on May 28th 2011 by B Rad
Re: Session "rules"
I meant to start my post with "Like" up above. Where the "L" did the first letter go?
# Posted on May 28th 2011 by AlBrown
Re: Session "rules"
It's Trad, with a capital T, and that rhymes with T, and that stands for Trouble?
# Posted on May 28th 2011 by Reverend
Re: Session "rules"
Dingbat is a great word. Ever try to pitch a tent in a wind storm? Grownups in charge of daycare centers(read creches) would understand. Folks, you have to experience a "Celtic" session in the US.
# Posted on May 28th 2011 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: Session "rules"
Band uniforms might be a help...might give them a sense of cohesion...purpose...
# Posted on May 29th 2011 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: Session "rules"
Re: Session "rules"
Bliss, the difference (as TSS pointed out) is that when the session is experienced and everybody knows the boundaries, they will "simply return to Irish afterwards".
# Posted on May 28th 2011 by Reverend
A thread with an echo!!!
I just said that reverend, and yes, the rest of your post is correct.
# Posted on May 29th 2011 by bodhran bliss
Re: Session "rules"
"Folks, you have to experience a "Celtic" session in the US."
US, you have to experience life outside the US.
# Posted on May 29th 2011 by Weejie
Re: Session "rules"
Does Glasgow count as outside the US?
# Posted on May 29th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Session "rules"
"Does Glasgow count as outside the US?"
Not that place on Paisley Road Toll, anyway.
I was referring to those still resident in the US, the majority of whom don't even have a passport. It could be where these distorted views of European life come from.
# Posted on May 29th 2011 by Weejie
Re: Session "rules"
Weejie, let's swap. I wonder who's view of the other's country is more distorted.
# Posted on May 29th 2011 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: Session "rules"
"Weejie, let's swap. I wonder who's view of the other's country is more distorted."
Well, I actually lived in America for a spell. I guess I might have the advantage.
# Posted on May 29th 2011 by Weejie
Re: Session "rules"
I'm sure you do have the advantage. When you lived here, were you happy -- even a little -- or were you constantly miserable from all the US pathology? These days, to help form my view of the outside world, I factor-in my observations of the behavior of expats. Some do you credit; some not. It would seem our guys "over there" have significantly lowered the bar for people like Silver Spear. (That should work to your advantage, Silver. Don't blow it!) BTW Weejie, did you play at sessions here?
# Posted on May 29th 2011 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: Session "rules"
"When you lived here, were you happy "
Reasonably happy.
" BTW Weejie, did you play at sessions here?"
Yep, only one Irish session, though. Mostly played with old time folk.
As for ex-pats, I'm reminded of a quip I heard. How do you know a Scottish boomerang? You throw it and it sings about coming back.
# Posted on May 29th 2011 by Weejie
Re: Session "rules"
Was it nominalIy an Irish session, but mostly Ol' Timey people played Ol' Time Music there? I hope you got to hear informal music in some place like West Virginia.
# Posted on May 29th 2011 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: Session "rules"
"Was it nominalIy an Irish session, but mostly Ol' Timey people played Ol' Time Music there?"
It was Irish alright - but a Japanese whistle player and an English flute player led it. I didn't get out to West Virginia, unfortunately. Mostly Kentucky, Ohio and Indiana.
# Posted on May 29th 2011 by Weejie
Re: Session "rules"
My sister did a year as a "Nurse on Horseback" out of the UofK at Lexington, back in '74. She said the music was up in the mountains alright; only well hidden. So were the stills. If I had come over from Scotland, I would chuck the Trad circuit and go looking for good Blues.
# Posted on May 29th 2011 by Atahualpa Quigley
What were we talking about?
My friend worked with Les Blank on his movies about the The Wild Tchoupitoulas, Lightnin' Hopkins, Mance Lipscomb .... So, that & life in general I've been around various Texas & Louisiana musical genres growing up. I still love it, it's just not anything I play.
Here's my distorted take of how I envisage West Virginia;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7qieYC4VWM
# Posted on May 29th 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: Session "rules"
Evenin' Ben. We're talking, indirectly, about how us "Myrkins" might fare better persuing our own music. I'm thinking of chucking all this unremitting Trad nonsense, and taking up Country and Western music. They say the transformation procedure is painless; the surgeon goes into your brain by way of the nose, takes out a piece of your brain...
# Posted on May 29th 2011 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: Session "rules"
PURSUING our own music.
# Posted on May 29th 2011 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: Session "rules"
"Evenin' Ben. We're talking, indirectly, about how us "Myrkins" might fare better persuing our own music. I'm thinking of chucking all this unremitting Trad nonsense, and taking up Country and Western music"
You'd need to visit Glasgow for the C&W scene - or Golspie. Bit like your Celtic buddies in the States, I would imagine.
# Posted on May 29th 2011 by Weejie
Re: Session "rules"
Can't speak for the South but we had some fantastic Irish sessions in Denver/Boulder. Had to keep the lid on them though and chase away bluegrass players and Bob Dylan impersonators with a garden hose.
# Posted on May 29th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Session "rules"
The fact is that if you dont run a tight ship, then the session WILL be over run by well meaning, but annoying, singer songwriters, or whatever. Different situations call for different guidelines.@AQ >>Ever try to pitch a tent in a wind storm? <<Oh yes, successfully, more times than I can remember as I say;'' If you cant put a tent up in a storm , you cant keep a tent up in a storm! ''
Thats a ride! but one thats survivable!
Mind you The weather yous get in the States recently can be a lot rougher than Scottish, Irish and Welsh mountains.! A Welsh mountain during a storm in a big tent with a Hammock !
# Posted on May 29th 2011 by piobagusfidil
Re: Session "rules"
Emily, contrary to the moniker Jon associates with me, I am not able to locate everything on the site. I have a fairly good memory,though. I have not read the thread you suggested, but it was one from Mix.
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/27644#comment588112
# Posted on May 30th 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: Session "rules"
Still amazes me that hack singers have the audacity to try and sing in front of hyper-critical musicians. They must be brave.
# Posted on May 31st 2011 by geoffwright
Re: Session "rules"
That's astute and very funny, Geoff. I'll remember that : )
# Posted on May 31st 2011 by Seosamh Ui Sinan
Re: Session "rules"
Whew1 Thanks for your comments, everyone, I was away for awhile and just got to read it all. I'm with bodrhanbliss-if the musicianship is topnotch, the "anything goes" is not tough to take. Have fun playing away-99% Irish-and please don't have any kittens!
# Posted on June 2nd 2011 by primrose lass