I've been involved in a lot a various sessions over the years and wondered "What is it that makes the crowd lift up?". Aside from just a good tune with the right timing/lilt/etc. what changes in a set of tunes makes things bounce? One trick that is use quite often in a CapeBreton square set, is from Maj to Minor or vice-versa; also A key change from D>G>A (I-III-IV) rule. The G to A change seems most emphasized from a low G to high A build up... What are your thoughts on this??
I think you should listen to the individual tunes and decide whether they "fit" together - the key changes can be nice, but be aware of over-using a pattern of key changes in your sets if you are arranging for a performance. Listen to a lot of recordings that interest you and try to determine what makes them interesting to you.
As for "getting a rise" out of a crowd, well, that has at least as much to do with how you play and the people you are playing for as it does with what you are playing. Reducing your arrangments to a formula like D-G-A or Edorian-Dmix-G is not a guarantee of artistic or popular success.
I enjoy the crack of a busy pub with people listening to the tunes, but getting a rise out of them doesn't factor in to my choice of tunes, or how I play at all.
As for what tune comes next, I like to just let things bubble to the surface, just listening for interesting transitions. With half an ear tuned to not falling into playing the same tunes together week after week (unless some really sweet transition happens and we do it for a while before moving on).
This might be an integral difference in geographies. Here, many individuals dance to the music, so ultimately we have to play for them not ourselves... Is this also the case elsewhere?
I like what Will said about similar vs. contrast phrasing. I know sets that do both, and they really open up my repetoire and i enjoy the music alot more not playing the "same like sets" over and over again. It keeps the music from becoming monotonous.
But two tunes that i'm trying to make work right now, are "The Red-Haired Lass" and "The Dark-Haired Lass". They contrast, melodically and rhythmically, so it's hard to neatly put them together for now. But it'll be a neat set.
I had to go back and re-read the original post. The first time I read "What is it that makes the crowd lift up?", I thought you were referring to a ceili band and the key change that gets a whoop out of the crowd. Some just fizzle out but some really lift the people out of their seats.
As for a session, I have to agree with Will Harmon that the crowd comes secondary since you aren't there are for applause.
There's possibly not much point in putting together sets whose names seem linked, if the tunes themselves clash.
Announcing The Blue-Eyed Maid / The Glass-Eyed Maid / The Bug-Eyed Maid (or similar) might fizz up a few grockles and friends of the band, but if the music's a train wreck the cats will give up on it and crash their way to the bar like migrating wildebeest.
We have dancers at our session a couple of times a month, sometimes step dancers, and sometimes ceili dancers. Of course we play for them--they ask us for specific sets or tunes or "a fast reel, please," etc. And we come up with sets that give them a boost when they need it.
But when people are just listening, eating, drinking, talking, we play whatever we want. It still often gets a rise, but that's because people are enjoying the fact that we're in the zone, not because we're trying to get a response.
I wouldnt say "looking to get a response", but what caused it in the first place? In terms of playing for yourself versus for the listener is a very debatable issue... I was always taught that if people come to listen to you, you better play for them.
No one's making them go into that pub and listen to you. You're not charging, They can go to another pub. They can go to a different part of that pub. They can shout over you.
It appears to me there are 2 poles here, from one extreme where the players couldn't give a toss what the audience thinks, they are thereto play tunes, its an inwards looking circle. At the other extreme is the outward looking circle where the players are specifically aiming to engage the audience and , of course everywhere in between. It appears that the two camps dont appreciate the others position.
If your a musician who sees bringing the crowd with you on a musical journey of dance or at least a crowd being interested! then to sit in a session where no one apart from the musicians even really notice them playing would feel very strange and youd likely think what a crap gig.
If you feel strange when someone claps and notices you , then the other extreme a full on Show like Riverdance might be crass.
Some play for dancers some not. There is a common session scene where, because its unstructured, not done for a show, all levels of musicians so sometimes chaotic and simply poor music then if thats your majority of experience you will defend that as the 'true way', it seems. If you see that as a complete failure to connect and the full on Gig to be the majority of your experience then thats likely to be expounded as the 'right way'.
The fact is of course that a lot of sessions dont actually produce good music , and folk will defend this and rightfully, its not about making good music, its about the internal feeling of the players, do they enjoy playing the tunes...OK
Even really good players, the best in Ireland, sit in pubs and dont get noticed. Sure some of the people do notice but there still plenty just drinking and chatting , watching the Sky sport thats still on! sound down.
Perhaps a guest musician, someone different in the mix , does the job ' so to speak' makes an Impact, and of course when this happens the guys playing are generally delighted, It must be incredibly demoralising as a musician not to be noticed if your used to or desire a reaction , or if you know your one of the best, but the young drinkers cant even hear cos theyre jabbering so loud... see the introduction of PA gear in places like Doolin .
Of course one of the reasons why sessions dont get noticed, apart from insipid playing is that the modern 'man' has been educated thru the mass media to expect certain things from the musak. It has to be identifiable, their brans need to recognise it and even categorise it... Singer/songwriter.. blues band, Whatever and it all has the ever present guitar. Likely drum/ Bass/keys.
Anyhow a line up with drums, bass and guitar Moves Air! It gets noticed, especially a double bass , It might still be disregarded, that depends on the quality of music played and its appropriateness, a Jazz club will not take well to a punk band.. .
So some traditions, based around dance, getting noticed, lifting the crowd, incorporate drums, build sets for effect etc Others getting used to sitting in a corner having tunes, basically an inward looking pub session dont.
In a band situation, there are four basic parameters you can consider at tune changes: tempo, time signature, key and instrumentation.
You can work on the basis of continuity or contrast. Then there are the specifics of each individual tune (i.e. within key signatures tunes that are structured similarly or differently) and with the musicians, there are the individualities of style to consider. With tempo, it partly depends on the actual bpm you have been using and the relative change. Time signatures have been well discussed here, and changing e.g. jig > reel is probably many here would not approve of, but it can work if you all know what you're doing, and when.
Key changes major/relative minor, or up a tone or a fifth, are obvious, but sometimes others work too.
That adds up to a lot of permutations. I was 'accused' the other day of being over preoccupied with key changes, and they are certainly one of the more obvious and over-worked lifts. But there are others, e.g. change time signature but not tempo which can be unexpected and work well. Changing instruments to suit the feel of a particular tune has a lot of potential - the same tune can sound different on different instruments/combinations.
For extra lift, you change more than one parameter at a time - though you also have to beware of over-doing it. Or else buy new underwear.
Hope this wasn't a lecture in egg-sucking - it's hardly rocket science, just a few thoughts...
>>modern 'man' has been educated thru the mass media to expect certain things from the musak
I think the main thing that the mass media have done is to 'educate' people that they never need to listen at all. We have gone from background muzak in shops and restaurants to background radio and then TV in the home, to the constant noise of the iPod.
I have seen people talking through concerts, plays and even church services (on the odd occasion I get dragged to one). It is also the most common complaint of the teacher - modern kids just don't know when to listen - even to their peers. They don't generally mean harm, it's just a different norm, but one I don't personally like, and one thatr IMHO is completely inappropriate in any 'live performance' situation - unless the PA is really loud, perhaps.
And the reason it's there? The constant noise prevents people from having to THINK!
One of the things (there are many things) that drives me nuts is pubs that BLAST recorded music over the PA for no reason so you have to shout to your mates to have a conversation. Why? What's the bloody point?
@Ian Stock, this is great insight. A Highland to a Reel for example makes a nice change. In CB Music, March - Strathspey to Reel would be the equivalent. In Central Canada, the change from Clog/Hornipe>Jig> Reel is very commonplace. One thing that I've also found, much to you point, is instrument emphasis. Pipes & Accordions are excellent for this, amongst other things.
>>In CB Music, March - Strathspey to Reel would be the equivalent
In GHB piping, MSR is pretty much *the* standard format for competition set pieces. I've always has a particular affection for it - but only so long as the tune choice doesn't become hackneyed.
@MorganYYZ. With regards to entertaining the crowd at a pub. Am I understanding you correctly? Is it not part of the whole reason an owner would hold a session in the first place?. I.e. Return-On-Investment? If the clientele feels no connection both ways, wouldnt that affect the appeal? I mean, wouldnt the session suck if no one was there, given that they are secondary. In which case, why not having it at someones home?
We've been round this a bunch before. Led to some long, labored threads.
Some publicans actually like the music and want to support it. They get that it's part of supporting community.
Live music almost always pulls people in and holds them there longer than no live music, so even if the session isn't actively entertaining anyone, the pub still has a better night.
At some pubs, sessions are often on otherwise "off" nights, so they pull in a few customers and don't interfere with busier nights.
And in some enlightened places, the punters get the difference between a session and a performance, so they don't mind that half the players have their backs to them. Some people actually enjoy the whole informal, seat-of-the-pants, not-entertainment vibe of a session.
Finally, a great reason to session down at the local pub instead of at someone's house is that you never know who might stumble in--visiting musicians from afar, a wedding party from Mayo looking to dance polkas all night, a family of step dancers just looking for a meal. Serendipity is grand. Much more likely to happen in a public place.
Methinks that celticturntable sees not only participating in a discussion board as an extension of commerce, but sees playing in sessions as an opportunity to impress an audience. If a true traddie he will be, the lure of commerce and adulation he must ignore!
Returning to the subject of key changes that lift the crowd, going up a step usually sounds exciting to people.
At sessions we used to play Foxhunter's Reel first in G then in A and it had a great effect.
This has become a cliche in modern Christian Praise music, where the final verse is often up a step.
Also often working is going up a 4th or a 5th.
These might be thought of as examples of creating excitement by the music suddenly getting "brighter".
The Cape Breton thing is the opposite, but very effective: the taking away of sharps, so that the music becomes progressively "darker".
By taking away the sharps I mean
A Major > A Mixolydian > A Dorian
(3 sharps > 2 sharps > 1 sharp)
Very effective in Macedonian dance music is going up a step, then returning to the original key, which is the drone key of the Macedonian bagpipes. So during the middle section there's a tension between the new tonic and the drone note, the tension being relieved when the tune returns.
The old traditional Scottish pipe reels which are used in competition have got longer and longer over the last 250 years, and in their modern 8-part (or longer) forms often exhibit this same Macedonian aspect, going from A up to B and returning to A.
Al: "Methinks that celticturntable sees not only participating in a discussion board as an extension of commerce, but sees playing in sessions as an opportunity to impress an audience. If a true traddie he will be, the lure of commerce and adulation he must ignore! "
I don't think this is fair to CelticTT. If you ae playing in a busy pub and the crowd get excited about the music it is enjoyable for them and for you. At times like that it would be useful to know what kind of thing will keep the excitement going, and what is liable to deflate it. That doesn't mean that the audience have now become the focus of everything you are doing, or that you are looking for "adulation". You are just trying to let other people enjoy themselves.
I noticed that at times like this, a fiddler I played with would play the tune O'Rourke's, then play it again a fifth higher. That really did the trick.
When I stated that "the crowd comes secondary since you aren't there are for applause", it is because when I think of applause I think of a more standard performance whether it be a concert or busking on the street where you are directly engaging the public because you are dependent on them.
In the case of the musicians at a session, you do not know who will be present. There may be nervous learners or returning old-timers that are sticking their toe in the water to see how it is. They don't need the additional pressure of "performing". There may be a group that just doesn't mesh and so "CD-quality" should not be expected. And if a musical giant arrives, they may want the anonymity of the session to be just part of the craic.
Besides the patrons have other distractions to occupy their time such as food, drink or conversation. If they are there for the music, they will probably listen quietly and give a smattering of applause at the end. They probably won't give a big "Whoo-oo" with a key change. More likely a murmered "Yes" or simply a nodding of the head.
For many, the musicians are part of the furniture just like a dart board or television. Like Will Harmon stated the sessions tend to be more for off-nights. Sadly a gimmick used by the pub to lure in cash-laden wanderers. Just kidding. It's more of a barter system of free music for a warm spot by the fire.
Now you could just meet at someone's house but who would do the clean-up when everyone leaves?
Given the off night sort of session, the inward type would apply and I get that. I guess its maybe more what I am used to. Here, it is considered "for Dance" Music, so you play for Dances. Not on the off chance someone might get up. So ultimately, all the comments about the Inward type session dont really apply to the discussion.
Any traditional key to A major. The hackneyed Barry Manilow GMaj->AMaj modulation goes over depressingly well playing to audiences who aren't in-tune with ITM. It works even better with the same tune (i.e. Foxhunters in G then A). Just for the love of God and everything holy, don't do that kind of thing in a session. That's for the St. Patrick's Day sort of crowd who would really rather hear you singing "Whiskey in the Jar" so you have to pander to them to squeeze in some tunes.
Jig or hornipipe to reel sets are also well received when you're playing on stage. We don't usually mix tune types in sessions but it can make for some really appealing performance sets.
Minor or myx to major transitions and circle of fifths movements like D->G are more traditional things that sound like the set builds energy to my ear.
I like doing that actually! especially on the whistle, so start in D, go to G then A then back to D in the high octave
'Simple ' tunes like Tom Wardes and 'would the minister not dance' can be done like this on the humble tin whistle.
Pinch of snuff also has this same 'gear'change which is where I got the idea.
@Richard D Cook.
I wouldnt recommend it, not because its not a good thing to do, Im just not recommending it. I do however, recommend understanding my motives before being critical. "Your impact, my intent" are not always the same thing... Thats an important lesson many should take away.
<<If a true traddie he will be, the lure of commerce and adulation he must ignore>>
Is this the sort of gobbledegook that gets passed of as wisdom on the net?! HTF are people supposed to eat if they dont charge? thats commerce, trade, exchange of energy.
Adulation, show me someone who doesn't enjoy adulation and Ill show you someone whos dead. Its human nature, its not shallow , its very deep human drive, like sex and aggression.
Yes some people do consider them to be their primary motives in playing music. We might think that sad, they might think were stupid, doesnt make either of us right or wrong,just different.
Certainly most of my musician friends charge for sessions/gigs, theyd laugh were they expected to play for free unless they happen to be passing or met an old friends etc and then play for no financial reward' but they still appreciate the respect if not adulation.
Which of us blokes is going to disdain a gorgeous ting purring over you and your playing! you might be happily married but its a boost to the ego! and dont tell me any sh*te about ego, we all have one , some might be inflated some deflated some balanced some of us are in control of our egos , some are controlled by their egos.
Commerce and recognition /adulation are motives for everyone all be they subconscious , you might not need to make a living with music, you might not receive, need or want recognition /applause/adulation etc but dont disdain those that do and pretend that somehow a judeo/muslim/christion ethic of self denial, beat yourself with a flail, is somehow something to aspire towards, wisdom. Thats a matter of opinion.
Yeah, I always talk like Yoda when I am dead serious!
(although don't tell piobagusfidil it was sarcasm, or he might be disappointed he wasted a perfectly good rant!)
"So ultimately, all the comments about the Inward type session dont really apply to the discussion."
In the immortal words of Daffy Duck, " I see what the problem is --- pronoun trouble. "
We aren't talking the same language.
When you say session, I see people sitting around playing. You see them performing for a ceili. When I say ceili... ahhh you get the picture. Methinks there may need to be a glossary attached to define what we are all talking about now that the tune vs song conundrum has been sorted out.
Morgan, are you telepathic? can you see inside peters head and inform us of what he sees and thinks? I dont think so
We will only know whats inside Peters head if he tells us.
I reckon at the end of the gig/session or what....if you;ve got a couple or three decent fiddle players...after a few others ...shifting to overdrive in A can't be beat...malin, F hunters, O 'Rourkes etc
Something fine about a few fiddles in A in my opinion,,,there seems to be a definite "Whoop" factor in FiddleAY.
There again .short F can be a killer key too, & has a weird , awesome , funky & demented sound to it it..,, ?
It would be great if we could all meet in some massive Pub...
then we'd see who is who, & what is wot
Move up a tone (e.g. G to A) - it sounds better that just changing key, and really confuses melodionists and hack strummers.(Goat-bashers won't notice)
What Key Changes during a set lift the crowd
What Key Changes during a set lift the crowd
I've been involved in a lot a various sessions over the years and wondered "What is it that makes the crowd lift up?". Aside from just a good tune with the right timing/lilt/etc. what changes in a set of tunes makes things bounce? One trick that is use quite often in a CapeBreton square set, is from Maj to Minor or vice-versa; also A key change from D>G>A (I-III-IV) rule. The G to A change seems most emphasized from a low G to high A build up... What are your thoughts on this??
Peter Corfield
# Posted on May 26th 2011 by celticturntable
Re: What Key Changes during a set lift the crowd
I think you should listen to the individual tunes and decide whether they "fit" together - the key changes can be nice, but be aware of over-using a pattern of key changes in your sets if you are arranging for a performance. Listen to a lot of recordings that interest you and try to determine what makes them interesting to you.
As for "getting a rise" out of a crowd, well, that has at least as much to do with how you play and the people you are playing for as it does with what you are playing. Reducing your arrangments to a formula like D-G-A or Edorian-Dmix-G is not a guarantee of artistic or popular success.
# Posted on May 26th 2011 by Seosamh Ui Sinan
Re: What Key Changes during a set lift the crowd
I wouldnt want to give the impression that tunes/instrument/the crowd have nothing to do with it. But is there something else at work?
# Posted on May 26th 2011 by celticturntable
Re: What Key Changes during a set lift the crowd
I enjoy the crack of a busy pub with people listening to the tunes, but getting a rise out of them doesn't factor in to my choice of tunes, or how I play at all.
As for what tune comes next, I like to just let things bubble to the surface, just listening for interesting transitions. With half an ear tuned to not falling into playing the same tunes together week after week (unless some really sweet transition happens and we do it for a while before moving on).
# Posted on May 26th 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: What Key Changes during a set lift the crowd
Well, finding similar phrasings among several tunes, or really interesting contrasts in phrasings. Sometimes its a melodic turn, sometimes rhythmic.
# Posted on May 26th 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: What Key Changes during a set lift the crowd
This might be an integral difference in geographies. Here, many individuals dance to the music, so ultimately we have to play for them not ourselves... Is this also the case elsewhere?
# Posted on May 26th 2011 by celticturntable
Re: What Key Changes during a set lift the crowd
You mean you're supposed to plan your sets more than two bars (if that) before you switch tunes? Oops.
# Posted on May 26th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: What Key Changes during a set lift the crowd
Yes, most sets are done at liberty. Generally, consensus is done on the fly...
# Posted on May 26th 2011 by celticturntable
Re: What Key Changes during a set lift the crowd
Eh?
# Posted on May 26th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: What Key Changes during a set lift the crowd
I like what Will said about similar vs. contrast phrasing. I know sets that do both, and they really open up my repetoire and i enjoy the music alot more not playing the "same like sets" over and over again. It keeps the music from becoming monotonous.
# Posted on May 26th 2011 by fiddlelearner
Re: What Key Changes during a set lift the crowd
But two tunes that i'm trying to make work right now, are "The Red-Haired Lass" and "The Dark-Haired Lass". They contrast, melodically and rhythmically, so it's hard to neatly put them together for now. But it'll be a neat set.
# Posted on May 26th 2011 by fiddlelearner
Re: What Key Changes during a set lift the crowd
I had to go back and re-read the original post. The first time I read "What is it that makes the crowd lift up?", I thought you were referring to a ceili band and the key change that gets a whoop out of the crowd. Some just fizzle out but some really lift the people out of their seats.
As for a session, I have to agree with Will Harmon that the crowd comes secondary since you aren't there are for applause.
# Posted on May 26th 2011 by MorganYYZ
Re: What Key Changes during a set lift the crowd
This is interesting, very different approaches to playing.
# Posted on May 26th 2011 by celticturntable
Re: What Key Changes during a set lift the crowd
There's possibly not much point in putting together sets whose names seem linked, if the tunes themselves clash.
Announcing The Blue-Eyed Maid / The Glass-Eyed Maid / The Bug-Eyed Maid (or similar) might fizz up a few grockles and friends of the band, but if the music's a train wreck the cats will give up on it and crash their way to the bar like migrating wildebeest.
# Posted on May 26th 2011 by nicholas
Re: What Key Changes during a set lift the crowd
We have dancers at our session a couple of times a month, sometimes step dancers, and sometimes ceili dancers. Of course we play for them--they ask us for specific sets or tunes or "a fast reel, please," etc. And we come up with sets that give them a boost when they need it.
But when people are just listening, eating, drinking, talking, we play whatever we want. It still often gets a rise, but that's because people are enjoying the fact that we're in the zone, not because we're trying to get a response.
# Posted on May 26th 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: What Key Changes during a set lift the crowd
I wouldnt say "looking to get a response", but what caused it in the first place? In terms of playing for yourself versus for the listener is a very debatable issue... I was always taught that if people come to listen to you, you better play for them.
# Posted on May 26th 2011 by celticturntable
Re: What Key Changes during a set lift the crowd
No one's making them go into that pub and listen to you. You're not charging, They can go to another pub. They can go to a different part of that pub. They can shout over you.
# Posted on May 26th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: What Key Changes during a set lift the crowd
It appears to me there are 2 poles here, from one extreme where the players couldn't give a toss what the audience thinks, they are thereto play tunes, its an inwards looking circle. At the other extreme is the outward looking circle where the players are specifically aiming to engage the audience and , of course everywhere in between. It appears that the two camps dont appreciate the others position.
If your a musician who sees bringing the crowd with you on a musical journey of dance or at least a crowd being interested! then to sit in a session where no one apart from the musicians even really notice them playing would feel very strange and youd likely think what a crap gig.
If you feel strange when someone claps and notices you , then the other extreme a full on Show like Riverdance might be crass.
Some play for dancers some not. There is a common session scene where, because its unstructured, not done for a show, all levels of musicians so sometimes chaotic and simply poor music then if thats your majority of experience you will defend that as the 'true way', it seems. If you see that as a complete failure to connect and the full on Gig to be the majority of your experience then thats likely to be expounded as the 'right way'.
The fact is of course that a lot of sessions dont actually produce good music , and folk will defend this and rightfully, its not about making good music, its about the internal feeling of the players, do they enjoy playing the tunes...OK
Even really good players, the best in Ireland, sit in pubs and dont get noticed. Sure some of the people do notice but there still plenty just drinking and chatting , watching the Sky sport thats still on! sound down.
Perhaps a guest musician, someone different in the mix , does the job ' so to speak' makes an Impact, and of course when this happens the guys playing are generally delighted, It must be incredibly demoralising as a musician not to be noticed if your used to or desire a reaction , or if you know your one of the best, but the young drinkers cant even hear cos theyre jabbering so loud... see the introduction of PA gear in places like Doolin .
Of course one of the reasons why sessions dont get noticed, apart from insipid playing is that the modern 'man' has been educated thru the mass media to expect certain things from the musak. It has to be identifiable, their brans need to recognise it and even categorise it... Singer/songwriter.. blues band, Whatever and it all has the ever present guitar. Likely drum/ Bass/keys.
Anyhow a line up with drums, bass and guitar Moves Air! It gets noticed, especially a double bass , It might still be disregarded, that depends on the quality of music played and its appropriateness, a Jazz club will not take well to a punk band.. .
So some traditions, based around dance, getting noticed, lifting the crowd, incorporate drums, build sets for effect etc Others getting used to sitting in a corner having tunes, basically an inward looking pub session dont.
# Posted on May 26th 2011 by piobagusfidil
Re: What Key Changes during a set lift the crowd
In a band situation, there are four basic parameters you can consider at tune changes: tempo, time signature, key and instrumentation.
You can work on the basis of continuity or contrast. Then there are the specifics of each individual tune (i.e. within key signatures tunes that are structured similarly or differently) and with the musicians, there are the individualities of style to consider. With tempo, it partly depends on the actual bpm you have been using and the relative change. Time signatures have been well discussed here, and changing e.g. jig > reel is probably many here would not approve of, but it can work if you all know what you're doing, and when.
Key changes major/relative minor, or up a tone or a fifth, are obvious, but sometimes others work too.
That adds up to a lot of permutations. I was 'accused' the other day of being over preoccupied with key changes, and they are certainly one of the more obvious and over-worked lifts. But there are others, e.g. change time signature but not tempo which can be unexpected and work well. Changing instruments to suit the feel of a particular tune has a lot of potential - the same tune can sound different on different instruments/combinations.
For extra lift, you change more than one parameter at a time - though you also have to beware of over-doing it. Or else buy new underwear.
Hope this wasn't a lecture in egg-sucking - it's hardly rocket science, just a few thoughts...
# Posted on May 26th 2011 by ian stock
Re: What Key Changes during a set lift the crowd
>>modern 'man' has been educated thru the mass media to expect certain things from the musak
I think the main thing that the mass media have done is to 'educate' people that they never need to listen at all. We have gone from background muzak in shops and restaurants to background radio and then TV in the home, to the constant noise of the iPod.
I have seen people talking through concerts, plays and even church services (on the odd occasion I get dragged to one). It is also the most common complaint of the teacher - modern kids just don't know when to listen - even to their peers. They don't generally mean harm, it's just a different norm, but one I don't personally like, and one thatr IMHO is completely inappropriate in any 'live performance' situation - unless the PA is really loud, perhaps.
And the reason it's there? The constant noise prevents people from having to THINK!
# Posted on May 26th 2011 by ian stock
Re: What Key Changes during a set lift the crowd
One of the things (there are many things) that drives me nuts is pubs that BLAST recorded music over the PA for no reason so you have to shout to your mates to have a conversation. Why? What's the bloody point?
# Posted on May 26th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: What Key Changes during a set lift the crowd
I think there is some idea that it makes people drink more.
# Posted on May 26th 2011 by John Culhane
Re: What Key Changes during a set lift the crowd
Emily, you're getting almost as grumpy as me...
# Posted on May 26th 2011 by ian stock
Re: What Key Changes during a set lift the crowd
Getting? This is hardly news.
# Posted on May 26th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: What Key Changes during a set lift the crowd
@Ian Stock, this is great insight. A Highland to a Reel for example makes a nice change. In CB Music, March - Strathspey to Reel would be the equivalent. In Central Canada, the change from Clog/Hornipe>Jig> Reel is very commonplace. One thing that I've also found, much to you point, is instrument emphasis. Pipes & Accordions are excellent for this, amongst other things.
# Posted on May 26th 2011 by celticturntable
Re: What Key Changes during a set lift the crowd
C major to A major---that's all I got.
# Posted on May 26th 2011 by JPFlute
Re: What Key Changes during a set lift the crowd
I do not know.
# Posted on May 26th 2011 by horatio spens the blademan
Re: What Key Changes during a set lift the crowd
>>In CB Music, March - Strathspey to Reel would be the equivalent
In GHB piping, MSR is pretty much *the* standard format for competition set pieces. I've always has a particular affection for it - but only so long as the tune choice doesn't become hackneyed.
# Posted on May 26th 2011 by ian stock
Re: What Key Changes during a set lift the crowd
We always used to play MSRM for our sets. The march after the reel was a nice way to ease back down and prepare for the next set.
# Posted on May 26th 2011 by gam
Re: What Key Changes during a set lift the crowd
Yes, I can see that. Another of those ski-jump moments, where you go 'off the end' of the reel into something a little more laid back?
# Posted on May 26th 2011 by ian stock
Re: What Key Changes during a set lift the crowd
One fifth up in Key signature, regardless of mode.
# Posted on May 26th 2011 by Earl Cameron
Re: What Key Changes during a set lift the crowd
@MorganYYZ. With regards to entertaining the crowd at a pub. Am I understanding you correctly? Is it not part of the whole reason an owner would hold a session in the first place?. I.e. Return-On-Investment? If the clientele feels no connection both ways, wouldnt that affect the appeal? I mean, wouldnt the session suck if no one was there, given that they are secondary. In which case, why not having it at someones home?
# Posted on May 26th 2011 by celticturntable
Re: What Key Changes during a set lift the crowd
Am I the only one who, on seeing the acronym "MSR," thinks it sounds like some disease one should be vaccinated for as a child?
# Posted on May 27th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: What Key Changes during a set lift the crowd
We've been round this a bunch before. Led to some long, labored threads.
Some publicans actually like the music and want to support it. They get that it's part of supporting community.
Live music almost always pulls people in and holds them there longer than no live music, so even if the session isn't actively entertaining anyone, the pub still has a better night.
At some pubs, sessions are often on otherwise "off" nights, so they pull in a few customers and don't interfere with busier nights.
And in some enlightened places, the punters get the difference between a session and a performance, so they don't mind that half the players have their backs to them. Some people actually enjoy the whole informal, seat-of-the-pants, not-entertainment vibe of a session.
Finally, a great reason to session down at the local pub instead of at someone's house is that you never know who might stumble in--visiting musicians from afar, a wedding party from Mayo looking to dance polkas all night, a family of step dancers just looking for a meal. Serendipity is grand. Much more likely to happen in a public place.
# Posted on May 27th 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: What Key Changes during a set lift the crowd
Methinks that celticturntable sees not only participating in a discussion board as an extension of commerce, but sees playing in sessions as an opportunity to impress an audience. If a true traddie he will be, the lure of commerce and adulation he must ignore!
# Posted on May 27th 2011 by AlBrown
Re: What Key Changes during a set lift the crowd
>>Am I the only one who, on seeing the acronym "MSR," thinks it sounds like some disease one should be vaccinated for as a child?
No, but apparently that's how competition pipers or at l;east bands refer to it...
# Posted on May 27th 2011 by ian stock
Re: What Key Changes during a set lift the crowd
Returning to the subject of key changes that lift the crowd, going up a step usually sounds exciting to people.
At sessions we used to play Foxhunter's Reel first in G then in A and it had a great effect.
This has become a cliche in modern Christian Praise music, where the final verse is often up a step.
Also often working is going up a 4th or a 5th.
These might be thought of as examples of creating excitement by the music suddenly getting "brighter".
The Cape Breton thing is the opposite, but very effective: the taking away of sharps, so that the music becomes progressively "darker".
By taking away the sharps I mean
A Major > A Mixolydian > A Dorian
(3 sharps > 2 sharps > 1 sharp)
Very effective in Macedonian dance music is going up a step, then returning to the original key, which is the drone key of the Macedonian bagpipes. So during the middle section there's a tension between the new tonic and the drone note, the tension being relieved when the tune returns.
The old traditional Scottish pipe reels which are used in competition have got longer and longer over the last 250 years, and in their modern 8-part (or longer) forms often exhibit this same Macedonian aspect, going from A up to B and returning to A.
# Posted on May 27th 2011 by Richard D Cook
Re: What Key Changes during a set lift the crowd
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/13417/comments#comment276198
# Posted on May 27th 2011 by domhnall.
Re: What Key Changes during a set lift the crowd
Aye, I know, Ian. Just making bad jokes.
# Posted on May 27th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: What Key Changes during a set lift the crowd
Al: "Methinks that celticturntable sees not only participating in a discussion board as an extension of commerce, but sees playing in sessions as an opportunity to impress an audience. If a true traddie he will be, the lure of commerce and adulation he must ignore! "
I don't think this is fair to CelticTT. If you ae playing in a busy pub and the crowd get excited about the music it is enjoyable for them and for you. At times like that it would be useful to know what kind of thing will keep the excitement going, and what is liable to deflate it. That doesn't mean that the audience have now become the focus of everything you are doing, or that you are looking for "adulation". You are just trying to let other people enjoy themselves.
I noticed that at times like this, a fiddler I played with would play the tune O'Rourke's, then play it again a fifth higher. That really did the trick.
# Posted on May 27th 2011 by Bernie 29
Re: What Key Changes during a set lift the crowd
Right now, Amaj to Cmaj, or Amaj to Fmaj, providing the tunes "fit" together.
# Posted on May 27th 2011 by snorre
Re: What Key Changes during a set lift the crowd
When I stated that "the crowd comes secondary since you aren't there are for applause", it is because when I think of applause I think of a more standard performance whether it be a concert or busking on the street where you are directly engaging the public because you are dependent on them.
In the case of the musicians at a session, you do not know who will be present. There may be nervous learners or returning old-timers that are sticking their toe in the water to see how it is. They don't need the additional pressure of "performing". There may be a group that just doesn't mesh and so "CD-quality" should not be expected. And if a musical giant arrives, they may want the anonymity of the session to be just part of the craic.
Besides the patrons have other distractions to occupy their time such as food, drink or conversation. If they are there for the music, they will probably listen quietly and give a smattering of applause at the end. They probably won't give a big "Whoo-oo" with a key change. More likely a murmered "Yes" or simply a nodding of the head.
For many, the musicians are part of the furniture just like a dart board or television. Like Will Harmon stated the sessions tend to be more for off-nights. Sadly a gimmick used by the pub to lure in cash-laden wanderers. Just kidding. It's more of a barter system of free music for a warm spot by the fire.
Now you could just meet at someone's house but who would do the clean-up when everyone leaves?
# Posted on May 27th 2011 by MorganYYZ
Re: What Key Changes during a set lift the crowd
Given the off night sort of session, the inward type would apply and I get that. I guess its maybe more what I am used to. Here, it is considered "for Dance" Music, so you play for Dances. Not on the off chance someone might get up. So ultimately, all the comments about the Inward type session dont really apply to the discussion.
# Posted on May 27th 2011 by celticturntable
Re: What Key Changes during a set lift the crowd
Any traditional key to A major. The hackneyed Barry Manilow GMaj->AMaj modulation goes over depressingly well playing to audiences who aren't in-tune with ITM. It works even better with the same tune (i.e. Foxhunters in G then A). Just for the love of God and everything holy, don't do that kind of thing in a session. That's for the St. Patrick's Day sort of crowd who would really rather hear you singing "Whiskey in the Jar" so you have to pander to them to squeeze in some tunes.
Jig or hornipipe to reel sets are also well received when you're playing on stage. We don't usually mix tune types in sessions but it can make for some really appealing performance sets.
Minor or myx to major transitions and circle of fifths movements like D->G are more traditional things that sound like the set builds energy to my ear.
# Posted on May 27th 2011 by ElaineT
Re: What Key Changes during a set lift the crowd
Yeah, I wouldnt recommend playing the same tune in different keys... BUT, this transition from tune to tune is VERY common in Dance Sets...
# Posted on May 27th 2011 by celticturntable
Re: What Key Changes during a set lift the crowd
I like doing that actually! especially on the whistle, so start in D, go to G then A then back to D in the high octave
'Simple ' tunes like Tom Wardes and 'would the minister not dance' can be done like this on the humble tin whistle.
Pinch of snuff also has this same 'gear'change which is where I got the idea.
# Posted on May 27th 2011 by piobagusfidil
Re: What Key Changes during a set lift the crowd
"I wouldn't recommend playing the same tune in different keys"
Willie Clancy did it and Paddy Keenan does it and that's good enough for me.
"If a true traddie he will be, the lure of commerce and adulation he must ignore!" -Yoda
# Posted on May 28th 2011 by Richard D Cook
Re: What Key Changes during a set lift the crowd
@Richard D Cook.
I wouldnt recommend it, not because its not a good thing to do, Im just not recommending it. I do however, recommend understanding my motives before being critical. "Your impact, my intent" are not always the same thing... Thats an important lesson many should take away.
# Posted on May 28th 2011 by celticturntable
Re: What Key Changes during a set lift the crowd
<<If a true traddie he will be, the lure of commerce and adulation he must ignore>>
Is this the sort of gobbledegook that gets passed of as wisdom on the net?! HTF are people supposed to eat if they dont charge? thats commerce, trade, exchange of energy.
Adulation, show me someone who doesn't enjoy adulation and Ill show you someone whos dead. Its human nature, its not shallow , its very deep human drive, like sex and aggression.
Yes some people do consider them to be their primary motives in playing music. We might think that sad, they might think were stupid, doesnt make either of us right or wrong,just different.
Certainly most of my musician friends charge for sessions/gigs, theyd laugh were they expected to play for free unless they happen to be passing or met an old friends etc and then play for no financial reward' but they still appreciate the respect if not adulation.
Which of us blokes is going to disdain a gorgeous ting purring over you and your playing! you might be happily married but its a boost to the ego! and dont tell me any sh*te about ego, we all have one , some might be inflated some deflated some balanced some of us are in control of our egos , some are controlled by their egos.
Commerce and recognition /adulation are motives for everyone all be they subconscious , you might not need to make a living with music, you might not receive, need or want recognition /applause/adulation etc but dont disdain those that do and pretend that somehow a judeo/muslim/christion ethic of self denial, beat yourself with a flail, is somehow something to aspire towards, wisdom. Thats a matter of opinion.
# Posted on May 28th 2011 by piobagusfidil
Re: What Key Changes during a set lift the crowd
Sarcasm fail, Will! I have a feeling Richard might have been less than serious, slightly. Athough the yoda bit was definitely serious.
# Posted on May 28th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: What Key Changes during a set lift the crowd
Yeah, I always talk like Yoda when I am dead serious!
(although don't tell piobagusfidil it was sarcasm, or he might be disappointed he wasted a perfectly good rant!)
# Posted on May 28th 2011 by AlBrown
Re: What Key Changes during a set lift the crowd
"So ultimately, all the comments about the Inward type session dont really apply to the discussion."
In the immortal words of Daffy Duck, " I see what the problem is --- pronoun trouble. "
We aren't talking the same language.
When you say session, I see people sitting around playing. You see them performing for a ceili. When I say ceili... ahhh you get the picture. Methinks there may need to be a glossary attached to define what we are all talking about now that the tune vs song conundrum has been sorted out.
# Posted on May 28th 2011 by MorganYYZ
Re: What Key Changes during a set lift the crowd
No worries Al, I like a good old rant
Morgan, are you telepathic? can you see inside peters head and inform us of what he sees and thinks? I dont think so
We will only know whats inside Peters head if he tells us.
# Posted on May 28th 2011 by piobagusfidil
Re: What Key Changes during a set lift the crowd
I reckon at the end of the gig/session or what....if you;ve got a couple or three decent fiddle players...after a few others ...shifting to overdrive in A can't be beat...malin, F hunters, O 'Rourkes etc
?
Something fine about a few fiddles in A in my opinion,,,there seems to be a definite "Whoop" factor in FiddleAY.
There again .short F can be a killer key too, & has a weird , awesome , funky & demented sound to it it..,,
It would be great if we could all meet in some massive Pub...
then we'd see who is who, & what is wot
rogerb
# Posted on May 31st 2011 by Roger B
Re: What Key Changes during a set lift the crowd
Move up a tone (e.g. G to A) - it sounds better that just changing key, and really confuses melodionists and hack strummers.(Goat-bashers won't notice)
# Posted on May 31st 2011 by geoffwright
Re: What Key Changes during a set lift the crowd
http://www.gearchange.org/
# Posted on June 12th 2011 by ...