I'm not looking for proof of how your playing rates. I don't think one has to be great in order to play traditional Irish music. But, it seems obvious from reading the differences of opinion that some are better than they think & some are not as good as they think. I realize this is something which can probably never be fully resolved. (I suggest protective gear for what may follow ~ or a good bowl of popcorn) Yea, though I walk through the Valley of Mustard; I shall always be glancing over my back ...
I think you're going about this the wrong way. I think it should be phrased - "how do you know when you've made good music?" The parameters for this conversation being "within a session" of course. It is further clouded by the fact that any answer given is purely subjective.
So - given all of that - now try and answer. For me it's that perfect moment when all your favorite people are around the table and you've all hit your stride after a few sets of warm ups and old chestnuts. The accoustics are perfect, the musicians are well balanced and you can hear all the notes from your mates as if you are playing them yourself. Your all completely locked in and the music soars. Granted - it may sound like sh*te to those not in that moment with you - but when you are inside the moment, it feels perfect. That's when you've made good music.
I have not had a moment when I did not wish I sounded better than I do. My playing has never been on par with the music I hear in my head.
But I've also had times where what came out of my fiddle was a pleasant surprise, closer to my imagination than I expected. Something to do with beer, I suspect....
Hmmm. More to the OP question, it's like tying flyfishing flies. If the fly catches a trout, the fly is good, no matter what another angler thinks. The playing is good if people spontaneously get up and dance.
Well , you should go by the opinions of well respected trad musicians who know you well enough to have a good understanding of your ability. Sound right?
Also of course the reactions of the average joe on the street who knows nothing but knows what they like.
So if you start up at a session thats been quite and the crowd gathers round and start whooping etc then their opinion is of value as well as serious trad musicians. In fact I dont think either can be taken in isolation. If lots of trad musicians think your great, but the punters dont care for it. or if the punters love it but the guys with serious reputations dont, then these situations are both cause for concern.
So hypothetically speaking , when the guy who wrote the book thinks your amazing and is happy to be quoted on it and the punters whoop and holler then you have a fair case for thinking your playing must be good.
# If after the session guys like John Kelly, Jackie Daly want to talk and sit with you, get drunk together and have a laugh then thats a positive sign.
# if the crowds are dancing and roaring, thats a fair indication. #if you get standing ovations, thats a clear sign
# If you hear of top musicians like Brid O 'Donohue asking after you after the session , that is too,.
# If Guys like Padraig Kelleher search you out for a session, then you can have confidence in your own ability.
I could go on and on and on [ as usual ], but I think my point is made.
Seems fair enough to me.
I certainly wouldn't pay much heed to the odd internet warrior or little gang of mates who have a grudge because they are bad losers and dont like being shown up for what they are , hypothetically speaking that is of course.
Now I gotta go. Gnight and God bless and would the last one out turn of the lights and make sure the cats put out.
As a highland piper, it's pretty easy. I read the score sheets the judges give me.
My instructor, a fierce competitor, has taught me that the way you win competitions is by playing musically. Nothing more or less. My instructor helps me to learn what is musical, and what isn't. In one of my first competitions when one of the greatest living pipers wrote, "Crossing Noises. Work on the Basics." It was really hard to take, but then I listened to a recording and realized he was right. So I took his advice and moved on.
When I play whistle, it's not so clear cut. I learn tunes off CDs, and I play them mainly for fun, but sometimes with others. Kind of a mini session. I know I'm not good when I get lost in the tune. I known I'm not good when I drop out when the repeat comes along. I know I'm not good when my fingers get all twisted up.
I apply the same standards to my whistle playing that I do to my piping. I'm looking for steady rhythm, good intonation, and clean fingering. I want to be able to play through the tune several times straight without dropping the beat, going off the tune, or changing the tempo. When I play with others, I want my feel for the beat to be right with theirs (i.e., I don't want to be playing a shade ahead of, nor behind, the beat.)
I want my playing to sound like the people I admire. Not in a note-for-note kind of way, but in a more general, at ease with the instrument kind of way.
Thanks Al ,,
But I learned it from a Master, who could do this easy. when I first met and played with him in a session. He just had to be in the Room sometimes - the Master I learned this from is the old Fiddler in this Video -
It's difficult actually. Coz you might be playing very well indeed but the others are sh*te! You may only be as good as them, but there is no control (experimental results and the analyses there of) to judge your the opinion of your own dudley-ing (or didling or diddleying) on.
When you're sure you are playing with operatives who, in your opinion, 'know what they are doing' you know you are playing well when:-
(1) you have to check that you are still actually playing because what you are doing just melts into the glorious whole.
(2) Automatic pilot takes over and you just sit back and enjoy the ride.
(3) every tune (even the ones on the Greatest Hits LP) sounds like a new one but you find that option (2) just takes you there anyway.
(4) The music becomes a subliminal part of the time just spent with people you are playing with: no ego; no performance; no ettiquette...
Plus the Zen-like pause wot Fiddle4 said...!
PS: I was at the Wig Museum tonight palying with Alan and co and I just didn't have the muse with me tonight. To play well the muse must be with you!
Oh well! off to change my trousers for the last time tonight...
"# If after the session guys like John Kelly, Jackie Daly want to talk and sit with you, get drunk together and have a laugh then thats a positive sign.
# if the crowds are dancing and roaring, thats a fair indication. #if you get standing ovations, thats a clear sign
# If you hear of top musicians like Brid O 'Donohue asking after you after the session , that is too,.
# If Guys like Padraig Kelleher search you out for a session, then you can have confidence in your own ability.
I could go on and on and on [ as usual ], but I think my point is made."
Yep, your point is made all right. That you have proved absolutely nothing about yourself except that you are the world's numero uno name-dropper and BS merchant. Well done!
I'm not going out to the pub on a Friday night with the intention of rating my, or anybody else's, playing. I'm going for fun, free beer and to tell all my mates lies, bad jokes, get politically incorrect and do a bit of swearing to boot and, while I'm at it, play some tunes. End of.
Yes indeedy-do! There is no control and t w a t s would not understand that concept. Who has the best opinion? Who is the most subjective &/ or objective here?
Will my shubunkins or bubble-eyes spawn tonight?
But, Mr Shaw, let's be fair, he was 'speaking hypothetically'! (snigger!)
Among many other ways, I'm sure we can all do the name-drop game to try and answer this question.
Llig, to answer your question, "think(ing) about how your playing is" is a different phrasing than "thinking about playing". So, no, I do not (in each & every case) "equate thinking about playing with rating one's self."
Who cares who's got the best opinion or who's objective or subjective? You roll up to my pub with the goal of having the best opinion or being objective/subjective about my, your, or anybody else's playing and I''ll tell ye to bugger orf!
I'm not asking for a comparison between players in the middle a session. But, have any of you sat down & played with anyone better than yourself? If so, I'd consider that rating your own playing. Perhaps subconsciously, but at some level there it is asking the question in the OP.
I judge my own playing by peoples reactions. But i try to be "real" about what to expect, cause not everyone is going to jump up and dance ALL the time. If i see someone tapping their foot, thats a good sign. If i see someone "grooving", wiggling and swaying their whole body, i assume that they are enjoying it. If someone jumps up and starts bouncing around, thats always a great sign lol. But one instance was wierd. I was playing at some friends' graduation party. After my first set, i got everyones attention. When i started the second, a lot of them were just standing and looking, and one was even sitting. I'm thinking "i must be doing something wrong" And outof nowhere, one of them jumped up outof her seat, and said "I feel like dancing! Its just so Bouncy!" Then i thought, "Yes, i must not be completely terrible."
Steve, I cannot even begin to dream up a self-congratulatory hypothetical of such hyperbole. I assure you I am him.
Even on harmonica you can learn from the players on other instruments. I don't know if that's true. But, I don't play harmonica so I'm trying to make an educated guess.
Fiddlelearner- please start depressing the key with an arrow pointing up when you type the letter 'i' when you intend the word that means one's self. And why are you up so late? Sorry, forgot you were a colonial chap! Hope you're having a nice tea before going off up the pub with your bird for a fag, pint and game of skittles and so forth...
Here's one way: record yourself. Has it's flaws--usually when I first listen I think it sounds good; next day, crap; 2 days later OK. It is hard to analyze one's playing. I made a recording and thought "something ain't right" but it took a friend of mine listening to point out the elephant in the room, or on the mp3 in this case.
Some people record themselves and remain delusional. I think most will think they sound like crap--and most people would be right I certainly don't meet the standards I want to reach.
Just as an example, here's a recording I made of myself recently: http://www.box.net/shared/hoyd1qb7v1 . Not perfect, but a far cry better than when I first started recording myself.
Perhaps a better yardstick is if others want to play with you. Usually one plays decently if others are happy to play tunes with you.
llig, aren't you being a bit hypocritical there? You're the one that's always telling us that people need to be more self aware of their own playing. What good is being self aware of your playing if you aren't evaluating it for what's right and wrong about it?
Here's a quote from a couple years ago:
.. "If you think your intonation, phrasing, tone, anything is OK when it's not, you simply aren't listening well enough. It seems weird to point out that loads of people actually don't listen to themselves when they play, but it's true."
So on one hand, we're supposed to listen to our own playing to be aware of whether it's good or not, but on the other hand, we're not supposed to be evaluating whether it's good?
If you can't tell whether what you're doing is good or not, then
how can it be good? It might be good once in a while by
accident maybe. You have to have a mental picture of what
you're trying to achieve and be able to rate yourself against it in
"real time".
For myself the mental discourse is usually something like ... "fail,
fail, good, fail, oh that's better, fail, fail, great, fail, fail, oops, ok,
fail, fail, ok ...". Then a week later on that tune there might be
few less "fails" and few more "oks".
The foot-tapping / grooving reaction is a pretty good test -
especially if you're seeing it but it doesn't throw you off your
game. That means you've got control over yourself and your
instrument. I'm not claiming that for myself, but I think that's a
pretty good test for this kind of music - dance music.
If people with something better to do, take the time to stop and listen, then I must be doing something right.
Whether I feel that way or not - well that is a different matter.
But like my mother told me, sometimes you don't need to explain you just need to say "Thank you".
Reverend, I reckon you can analyse your playing and learn from it without mentally rating yourself on some sort of scale of; crap-poor-okay-good-tommy peoples.
Mornin' I like a lot of the above posts. An alternative answer is that who cares! no one going to live or die because of what we can or can not do in this field, its just Music FFS
Attaining ability in most things is merely the result of applying your self with patience, persistence and open mindedness, its not so complicated!
People have a terrible tendency to pump up the ego when they become good at something, they attach their concept of who they are, to the skill obtained. But the reality is that age and life brings us all to earth eventually, we lose what we have worked so hard for. If our ego, and self image rests on these material things then what do we have when we lose them?
Our memories and friendships, , god willing our children. These things are much more important , how we look back on our lives may dictate if we die bitter and torn, or at peace.
The first day I sat in a wheelchair with the realisation I might never walk again I understood that there is more to life than attaining material possessions, skills and abilities. When I realised that all the ability id built up over years of training was gone It was not an easy lesson I assure you. Lady luck was with me and a few months later i was up and about., Hamdillah , but it could so easily have gone the other way. A lesson that I will always remember.
I recently spent a good bit of time with a Canadian musician who slowly, due to a debilitating disease lost nearly everyability that he had. he could have given up, but no he hitches round the world in a wheelchair, busking with the mouthorgan he can still play ,for now, living rough and crawling so as to be independent. Thats impressive my friends, not whether you can play a feckin tune .
If your a w*nker to the people around , its no odds to me if you can play Brahms or Shostakovitch with one hand tied behind your back while standing on your head on a tightrope, your still a w*nker! all be it one who has a good show. [ not directed at anyone here ok in case any of you with paranoid delusions or delusions of grandeur think it is]
@mr Gumby. Yes I know you do Peter, so it should be a simple matter to confirm my statements, after all, you were pointing your camera at us last week were you not?
Mornin' I like a lot of the above posts. An alternative answer is that who cares! no one going to live or die because of what we can or can not do in this field, its just Music FFS
Attaining ability in most things is merely the result of applying your self with patience, persistence and open mindedness, its not so complicated!
People have a terrible tendency to pump up the ego when they become good at something, they attach their concept of who they are, to the skill obtained. But the reality is that age and life brings us all to earth eventually, we lose what we have worked so hard for. If our ego, and self image rests on these material things then what do we have when we lose them?
Our memories and friendships, , god willing our children. These things are much more important , how we look back on our lives may dictate if we die bitter and torn, or at peace.
The first day I sat in a wheelchair with the realisation I might never walk again I understood that there is more to life than attaining material possessions, skills and abilities. When I realised that all the ability id built up over years of training was gone It was not an easy lesson I assure you. Lady luck was with me and a few months later i was up and about., Hamdillah , but it could so easily have gone the other way. A lesson that I will always remember.
I recently spent a good bit of time with a Canadian musician who slowly, due to a debilitating disease lost nearly everyability that he had. he could have given up, but no he hitches round the world in a wheelchair, busking with the mouthorgan he can still play ,for now, living rough and crawling so as to be independent. Thats impressive my friends, not whether you can play a feckin tune .
If your a w*nker to the people around , its no odds to me if you can play Brahms or Shostakovitch with one hand tied behind your back while standing on your head on a tightrope, your still a w*nker! all be it one who has a good show. [ not directed at anyone here ok in case there is any of you with paranoid delusions or delusions of grandeur that think it is]
@mr Gumby. Yes I know you do Peter, so it should be a simple matter to confirm my statements, after all, you were pointing your camera at us last week were you not?
I think you can only tell if you are playing accurately - rhythm, all the notes in the right place etc-but I don't think you can tell if you are playing good or not. it's like looking in a mirror at yourself, you never see yourself how other people see you. Likewise you never hear yourself the same way other people hear you. There's always something not quite how you would like it to sound and that's what keeps you motivated I suppose. I never would say I've finished learning the whistle even though I've been playing it 40odd years! patx
Ben, 'twas yhaalhouse, not you, who I was challenging. You just happened to get in a quick post in between his and mine, that's all. I know you're no jig.
@ Reverend -- "So on one hand, we're supposed to listen to our own playing to be aware of whether it's good or not, but on the other hand, we're not supposed to be evaluating whether it's good?" I'm sure that llig, with his highly-attuned and refined people skills, can speak for himself, but there's a difference between whether something is *good* and whether it is *right*. You can be self-critical without assigning goodness to your playing. I'm happy if something comes out the way I meant it to. I do consider how good the tune is, and whether or not I can do it justice, but I don't even consider how good I am.
I always rate my playing based on other people's reactions using the following guidelines:
If they say something like "Nice tune" or "Nice playing," they're being encouraging to someone who is clearly crap and needs the encouragement.
If they clap after the tune, same as above.
If they don't say anything at all, it means it sucked and they are too nice to comment.
If they get up and go out for a fag/bar/loo while I'n playing, it means it really sucks.
If they don't, it doesn't mean they're not thinking about doing so.
If someone stops playing mid-set, it means my rhythm, timing, phrasing, tuning, or all of the above are total pants.
If they ask how long I've been playing, it means I've really sucked some serious balls.
Welcome to my weird little neurotic world. Is it any wonder I go through phases of really disliking sessions. More often than not I get into a right freaked out state in the middle of one.
I like it best when no-one overtly reacts, and I don't care if they go for a lash, etc., in the middle of my playing. All it means is that what I'm doing is not a performance, and they know it.
I guess one more thing would be if you like your own playing. A lot of us know what it's like hearing all of our mistakes, everything we'd like to change, make sound better. So if one day, we suddenly like listening to ourselves, rather than nagging ourselves about every little mistake, maybe we've accomplished something that not many do. Getting over ourselves. One thing, if you're good, you're good. Just because you understand that you can get better doesn't mean you're not already great, it just means you're not perfect.
Listening is the key to any music, of course, whether you are listening to just yourself, yourself and others, or just others. But I'm sure the best of this music does not come from people listening to themselves and constantly saying to themselves stuff like, "fail, fail, good, fail, oh that's better, fail, fail, great, fail, fail, oops, ok, fail, fail, ok ...". And I'm absolutely positive that the best of this music does not come from people listening to themselves and constantly saying to themselves stuff like, "good, good, ok, great, good, fab, good, brilliant ..."
Listening to music should not be a constant critical appraisal. It's not like that, it's art. I feel sorry for those judges of those fleadh competitions. I wonder if they can ever switch off their "judging" heads and just listen for the fun of it.
And there seem to be a lot of answers here that merely rate the critical appraisal of others. i.e. "If people applaud me, I must be good". This is silly nonsense of course. Ask Lady Ga Ga if she thinks she's good.
For me, personally, I never rate myself. Though I do, however, enjoy myself when I'm surprised, whether being surprised by others or surprising myself.
llig, about the appraisal of others. Some of us are performers. To us other peoples' opinions actually matter. You made a good point though. Another thing, i rate myself to check my progress. Example, when i started learning fiddle/violin i would hate "trying" to practice. Some days i would try, then for weeks i wouldn't even take it outof it's case. Now, 1 year and near 6 months later, i actually really enjoy practicing. I'm in a different place than i was last year, so i must be making good progress.
Jerone, look up the story of Henry Bohannon that Séamus Ennis used to tell. In essence it displays the gap between playing to please yourself and playing to please the others.
There's a lesson in there.
From a performer's point of view, the only real essential thing is that you enjoy yourself. For nothing is easier to communicate than enjoyment. But if you are rating yourself as you perform, this will be communicated to your audience, and they will then rate you also. And even if you are brilliant, they'll be saying, he's not as brilliant as the other guy.
I am not sure you need to project enjoyment, many musicians project other emotions. I have never come away after hearing Tommy Peoples with the sense he was enjoying himself pouring his heart out as he did. . But it was the fact he bared his soul through his music, honest and personal, that made his music speak. Mary Bergin said listening to him makes her cry for example.
Yeah, you're probably right when you get to that kind of level. You can start to communicate more complex things than mere enjoyment. But it's a good place to start.
The question reminds me of an interview done with Seamus Ó Beaglaoich after a concert with Jim Murray. The interviewer asked him "how do you know when you've played a good gig?" to which Begley responded;
" If we get payed, and we sell loads of CDs, and nobody comes up and tells us we're sh*te".
"..Listening to music should not be a constant critical appraisal. It's not like that, it's art."
Fair enough. I tend not to "rate" my own playing all that much, other than whether I felt that there was a good groove, and whether I had fun...
But it seems like Ben's OP was really talking more about whether your self image of your own playing is accurate, not necessarily whether other people think it is "good".
Well, if noone else is in the room... Maybe, you notice that your instrument isn't wailing and crying, or shrieking as if it was being tortured. My fiddle would make sounds as if someone was getting ready to through it in the fireplace... "No! Stop! I don't deserve this!"
Dunno if it has been said already but the answer is simple
Enter a comhaltas competition and the adjudicators will tell you if your good or not. Read the adjudication sheet and they will tell you how to improve - Simple
Rev, I think that's exactly what Michael's getting at: many people don't really listen to themselves when playing, may not even know *how* to listen to themselves while playing, and so their self-image isn't at all accurate.
And if you rely of the reaction of people with no real understanding of the music, then you are likely deluding yourself (a la Lady Gaga).
In other words, it's easy to think you're "good" when you're so caught up in yourself that you don't notice that your intonation, rhythm, and feel are all off.
Thanks for the responses. I like there doesn't seem to be a consensus. I'm not asking for any definitive answer. Indeed there is a dichotomy, I think this is obvious; just not too easy to put into words. These discussions bring up paradoxes & ambiguities. I think of this as a good thing. But it's just a single thought, it's not something I'm constantly pondering as I play. That's one distraction too many & it would wreck my playing worse than what I'm already doing to wreck a few tunes. ;)
Steve Shaw, thanks for letting me know. Those post (& cross-posts) were coming at a time when I would otherwise have been getting ready for the Tuesday night session. With the cross posts I didn't sort all of the responses. I'll read back over those comments. Cheers!
For me your playing is good once you reach the expectations you have for yourself, recording yourself is a neutral help in the process of self evaluation in being able to separate the dream from the reality.
ideally your expectations are continuously advancing and every now and then you reach or surpass those expectations at which point you say to yourself "did I just do that", but you immediately move the bar a little higher.
This process continues, until one day you realise you are obsessed.
I received this advice many years ago from an old feller at a session in Camlough. "You won't know how good you are until you stop thinking how good you are."
It took me another ten years or so to grasp his point.
Scorpion, that advice is very zen like. It's along the same lines of what Buddha said about breathing & thinking; or what he expressed in the story of the raft.
And it particularly rings true to all those people everybody knows who have great technique but remain rubbish.
But there remains a deeper problem with fools like jig. He clearly believes he's god's gift, his postings/boastings are not in the least bit unambiguous on the matter. But as anyone who's heard his pitiful recordings know, there's a great deal of delusion involved.
Or is it delusion? I think this question is maybe what Ben was really trying to ask.
I think that the answer lies in the fact that when it comes down to it, there really is no difference between those who are clearly technically brilliant, but lack any form of musicality, and those who can't even keep an even rhythm but genuinely think they can. Both are hopeless because both base their music on their ability to rate themselves.
Hasn't anybody here ever watch X factor / Idol auditions??
delusion central.
Everybody who plays must think they are good some level, otherwise they wouldn't be keeping it up. Its the same with everything, like painting and football, people keep it up cos they believe that they could be (or could have been) the next van gogh or maradonna... This aint criticism of course, if you dont have some sort of self-belief, whats the point?
Heard Butte County had a twister yesterday afternoon. Maybe that can be taken as the sign you're looking for. Nah, probably not. A good sign that you're doing something right is if little kids are moved to spin in circles when you play. Enjoy it while it lasts.
IMO you should go by the opinions of well respected trad musicians who know you well enough to have a good understanding of your ability.
Secondly the reactions of the average joe on the street who knows nothing but knows what they like.
So if you start up at a session thats been quite and the crowd gathers round and start whooping etc then their opinion is of value as well as serious trad musicians.
In fact I dont think either can be taken in isolation. If some trad musicians think your great, but the punters dont care for it. or if the punters love it but the guys with serious reputations dont, then these situations are both cause for concern.
Pretty much nailed it... I know lots of players who are excellent, but dancers dont like dancing to them, because their drive isnt there... Playing is good, but the crowd could take it or leave it...
It also depends on what you consider "good" to be. What is the goal/purpose in "Good"?
How do you know if your playing is good?
How do you know if your playing is good?
I'm not looking for proof of how your playing rates. I don't think one has to be great in order to play traditional Irish music. But, it seems obvious from reading the differences of opinion that some are better than they think & some are not as good as they think. I realize this is something which can probably never be fully resolved. (I suggest protective gear for what may follow ~ or a good bowl of popcorn) Yea, though I walk through the Valley of Mustard; I shall always be glancing over my back ...
# Posted on May 24th 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: How do you know if your playing is good?
Just ask someone whose opinion you value.
# Posted on May 24th 2011 by Bredna
Re: How do you know if your playing is good?
People clap when I play? -
I win competitions? -
I know when my playing is good when people are dancing and the dance is working and everyone is having a good time -- including me.
# Posted on May 24th 2011 by John Culhane
Re: How do you know if your playing is good?
I think you're going about this the wrong way. I think it should be phrased - "how do you know when you've made good music?" The parameters for this conversation being "within a session" of course. It is further clouded by the fact that any answer given is purely subjective.
So - given all of that - now try and answer. For me it's that perfect moment when all your favorite people are around the table and you've all hit your stride after a few sets of warm ups and old chestnuts. The accoustics are perfect, the musicians are well balanced and you can hear all the notes from your mates as if you are playing them yourself. Your all completely locked in and the music soars. Granted - it may sound like sh*te to those not in that moment with you - but when you are inside the moment, it feels perfect. That's when you've made good music.
# Posted on May 25th 2011 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: How do you know if your playing is good?
Perhaps you know after the playing, thinking "I really enjoyed that"! Without thinking "if only".
People dancing is always good as well! :D
# Posted on May 25th 2011 by zaivanbuijs
Re: How do you know if your playing is good?
I have not had a moment when I did not wish I sounded better than I do. My playing has never been on par with the music I hear in my head.
But I've also had times where what came out of my fiddle was a pleasant surprise, closer to my imagination than I expected. Something to do with beer, I suspect....
Thank goodness it's fun to play, anyway.
# Posted on May 25th 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: How do you know if your playing is good?
Hmmm. More to the OP question, it's like tying flyfishing flies. If the fly catches a trout, the fly is good, no matter what another angler thinks. The playing is good if people spontaneously get up and dance.
# Posted on May 25th 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: How do you know if your playing is good?
Well , you should go by the opinions of well respected trad musicians who know you well enough to have a good understanding of your ability. Sound right?
], but I think my point is made.
Also of course the reactions of the average joe on the street who knows nothing but knows what they like.
So if you start up at a session thats been quite and the crowd gathers round and start whooping etc then their opinion is of value as well as serious trad musicians. In fact I dont think either can be taken in isolation. If lots of trad musicians think your great, but the punters dont care for it. or if the punters love it but the guys with serious reputations dont, then these situations are both cause for concern.
So hypothetically speaking , when the guy who wrote the book thinks your amazing and is happy to be quoted on it and the punters whoop and holler then you have a fair case for thinking your playing must be good.
# If after the session guys like John Kelly, Jackie Daly want to talk and sit with you, get drunk together and have a laugh then thats a positive sign.
# if the crowds are dancing and roaring, thats a fair indication. #if you get standing ovations, thats a clear sign
# If you hear of top musicians like Brid O 'Donohue asking after you after the session , that is too,.
# If Guys like Padraig Kelleher search you out for a session, then you can have confidence in your own ability.
I could go on and on and on [ as usual
Seems fair enough to me.
I certainly wouldn't pay much heed to the odd internet warrior or little gang of mates who have a grudge because they are bad losers and dont like being shown up for what they are , hypothetically speaking that is of course.
Now I gotta go. Gnight and God bless and would the last one out turn of the lights and make sure the cats put out.
# Posted on May 25th 2011 by piobagusfidil
Re: How do you know if your playing is good?
That is an impressive list of hypotheticals, piobagusfidil.
# Posted on May 25th 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: How do you know if your playing is good?
After playing a certain tune in a session there's a Sudden Silence,
And people including the players, are afraid to Breathe.
jim,,,
# Posted on May 25th 2011 by FIDDLE4
Re: How do you know if your playing is good?
As a highland piper, it's pretty easy. I read the score sheets the judges give me.
My instructor, a fierce competitor, has taught me that the way you win competitions is by playing musically. Nothing more or less. My instructor helps me to learn what is musical, and what isn't. In one of my first competitions when one of the greatest living pipers wrote, "Crossing Noises. Work on the Basics." It was really hard to take, but then I listened to a recording and realized he was right. So I took his advice and moved on.
When I play whistle, it's not so clear cut. I learn tunes off CDs, and I play them mainly for fun, but sometimes with others. Kind of a mini session. I know I'm not good when I get lost in the tune. I known I'm not good when I drop out when the repeat comes along. I know I'm not good when my fingers get all twisted up.
I apply the same standards to my whistle playing that I do to my piping. I'm looking for steady rhythm, good intonation, and clean fingering. I want to be able to play through the tune several times straight without dropping the beat, going off the tune, or changing the tempo. When I play with others, I want my feel for the beat to be right with theirs (i.e., I don't want to be playing a shade ahead of, nor behind, the beat.)
I want my playing to sound like the people I admire. Not in a note-for-note kind of way, but in a more general, at ease with the instrument kind of way.
# Posted on May 25th 2011 by green whistler
Re: How do you know if your playing is good?
I think Fiddle4 has it nailed...
(as usual)
# Posted on May 25th 2011 by AlBrown
Re: How do you know if your playing is good?
"After playing a certain tune in a session there's a Sudden Silence,
And people including the players, are afraid to Breathe."
So glad to know I'm not the only one who occasionally, in a momentary fit of relaxation, lets a little whisper escape...
# Posted on May 25th 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: How do you know if your playing is good?
Thanks Al ,,
But I learned it from a Master, who could do this easy. when I first met and played with him in a session. He just had to be in the Room sometimes - the Master I learned this from is the old Fiddler in this Video -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwkOE2ztIcY&feature=channel_video_title
True.. jim,,,
# Posted on May 25th 2011 by FIDDLE4
Re: How do you know if your playing is good?
It's difficult actually. Coz you might be playing very well indeed but the others are sh*te! You may only be as good as them, but there is no control (experimental results and the analyses there of) to judge your the opinion of your own dudley-ing (or didling or diddleying) on.
When you're sure you are playing with operatives who, in your opinion, 'know what they are doing' you know you are playing well when:-
(1) you have to check that you are still actually playing because what you are doing just melts into the glorious whole.
(2) Automatic pilot takes over and you just sit back and enjoy the ride.
(3) every tune (even the ones on the Greatest Hits LP) sounds like a new one but you find that option (2) just takes you there anyway.
(4) The music becomes a subliminal part of the time just spent with people you are playing with: no ego; no performance; no ettiquette...
Plus the Zen-like pause wot Fiddle4 said...!
PS: I was at the Wig Museum tonight palying with Alan and co and I just didn't have the muse with me tonight. To play well the muse must be with you!
Oh well! off to change my trousers for the last time tonight...
# Posted on May 25th 2011 by yhaalhouse
Re: How do you know if your playing is good?
Only t w a t s rate their own playing
# Posted on May 25th 2011 by ...
Re: How do you know if your playing is good?
So you never think about how your playing is, Llig?
# Posted on May 25th 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: How do you know if your playing is good?
Jim, Thanks for posting that, lovely playing! I see exactly what you mean!
# Posted on May 25th 2011 by AlBrown
Re: How do you know if your playing is good?
Why do you equate thinking about playing with rating one's self?
# Posted on May 25th 2011 by ...
Re: How do you know if your playing is good?
Not really an answer, mate.
# Posted on May 25th 2011 by Ben Steen
Fair play, but obviously you rate other people's playing. Why exclude yourself?
# Posted on May 25th 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: How do you know if your playing is good?
Sometimes the best answers are questions, Ben.
# Posted on May 25th 2011 by AlBrown
Re: How do you know if your playing is good?
Thanks, Al. I understand didactics.
# Posted on May 25th 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: How do you know if your playing is good?
Cross post, my last was a response to "Not really an answer, mate."
# Posted on May 25th 2011 by AlBrown
Re: How do you know if your playing is good?
Cross cross post, there.
And it seems that, if this discussion goes on in this vein, it will lead to some very cross posts...
# Posted on May 25th 2011 by AlBrown
Re: How do you know if your playing is good?
"# If after the session guys like John Kelly, Jackie Daly want to talk and sit with you, get drunk together and have a laugh then thats a positive sign.
# if the crowds are dancing and roaring, thats a fair indication. #if you get standing ovations, thats a clear sign
# If you hear of top musicians like Brid O 'Donohue asking after you after the session , that is too,.
# If Guys like Padraig Kelleher search you out for a session, then you can have confidence in your own ability.
I could go on and on and on [ as usual ], but I think my point is made."
Yep, your point is made all right. That you have proved absolutely nothing about yourself except that you are the world's numero uno name-dropper and BS merchant. Well done!
I'm not going out to the pub on a Friday night with the intention of rating my, or anybody else's, playing. I'm going for fun, free beer and to tell all my mates lies, bad jokes, get politically incorrect and do a bit of swearing to boot and, while I'm at it, play some tunes. End of.
# Posted on May 25th 2011 by Steve Shaw
Re: How do you know if your playing is good?
Yes indeedy-do! There is no control and t w a t s would not understand that concept. Who has the best opinion? Who is the most subjective &/ or objective here?
Will my shubunkins or bubble-eyes spawn tonight?
# Posted on May 25th 2011 by yhaalhouse
Re: How do you know if your playing is good?
But, Mr Shaw, let's be fair, he was 'speaking hypothetically'! (snigger!)
Among many other ways, I'm sure we can all do the name-drop game to try and answer this question.
# Posted on May 25th 2011 by yhaalhouse
Re: How do you know if your playing is good?
Llig, to answer your question, "think(ing) about how your playing is" is a different phrasing than "thinking about playing". So, no, I do not (in each & every case) "equate thinking about playing with rating one's self."
# Posted on May 25th 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: How do you know if your playing is good?
Honestly, I always play brilliantly (I can't help it!) and everyone else is a winker, wonker, wunker and, sometimes, a wenker.
# Posted on May 25th 2011 by yhaalhouse
Re: How do you know if your playing is good?
Who cares who's got the best opinion or who's objective or subjective? You roll up to my pub with the goal of having the best opinion or being objective/subjective about my, your, or anybody else's playing and I''ll tell ye to bugger orf!
# Posted on May 25th 2011 by Steve Shaw
Re: How do you know if your playing is good?
But, how do you know?
# Posted on May 25th 2011 by Ben Steen
Completely changing the subject...
winker= NZ
wonker= NI
wenker=SA
wunker=CCCP
# Posted on May 25th 2011 by yhaalhouse
Re: How do you know if your playing is good?
Do you prefer crab curry and egg fried rice or mutton khottu?
# Posted on May 25th 2011 by yhaalhouse
Re: How do you know if your playing is good?
Steve, which is your session pub? Coz I go down SW quite a lot to gig wiv tha band.
# Posted on May 25th 2011 by yhaalhouse
Re: How do you know if your playing is good?
I'm not asking for a comparison between players in the middle a session. But, have any of you sat down & played with anyone better than yourself? If so, I'd consider that rating your own playing. Perhaps subconsciously, but at some level there it is asking the question in the OP.
# Posted on May 25th 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: How do you know if your playing is good?
Heheh. Prove you're not jig afore I tell ye that!
# Posted on May 25th 2011 by Steve Shaw
Re: How do you know if your playing is good?
And another discussion heads down the road called "Reductio ad absurdum..."
# Posted on May 25th 2011 by AlBrown
Re: How do you know if your playing is good?
Apples and pears,mate, when you play the harmonica. Alternative answer: everybody's better than me.
# Posted on May 25th 2011 by Steve Shaw
Re: How do you know if your playing is good?
I judge my own playing by peoples reactions. But i try to be "real" about what to expect, cause not everyone is going to jump up and dance ALL the time. If i see someone tapping their foot, thats a good sign. If i see someone "grooving", wiggling and swaying their whole body, i assume that they are enjoying it. If someone jumps up and starts bouncing around, thats always a great sign lol. But one instance was wierd. I was playing at some friends' graduation party. After my first set, i got everyones attention. When i started the second, a lot of them were just standing and looking, and one was even sitting. I'm thinking "i must be doing something wrong" And outof nowhere, one of them jumped up outof her seat, and said "I feel like dancing! Its just so Bouncy!" Then i thought, "Yes, i must not be completely terrible."
# Posted on May 25th 2011 by fiddlelearner
Re: How do you know if your playing is good?
Well when you're in the Republic (the Sarf Lunden bit) ...
# Posted on May 25th 2011 by yhaalhouse
Re: How do you know if your playing is good?
Steve, I cannot even begin to dream up a self-congratulatory hypothetical of such hyperbole. I assure you I am him.
Even on harmonica you can learn from the players on other instruments. I don't know if that's true. But, I don't play harmonica so I'm trying to make an educated guess.
# Posted on May 25th 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: How do you know if your playing is good?
Fiddlelearner- please start depressing the key with an arrow pointing up when you type the letter 'i' when you intend the word that means one's self. And why are you up so late? Sorry, forgot you were a colonial chap! Hope you're having a nice tea before going off up the pub with your bird for a fag, pint and game of skittles and so forth...
# Posted on May 25th 2011 by yhaalhouse
Doh!
That's too surrealistic. I am *not* Jig. I swear on a stack of "HTML5 for Web Designers" that I am not!
# Posted on May 25th 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: How do you know if your playing is good?
Here's one way: record yourself. Has it's flaws--usually when I first listen I think it sounds good; next day, crap; 2 days later OK. It is hard to analyze one's playing. I made a recording and thought "something ain't right" but it took a friend of mine listening to point out the elephant in the room, or on the mp3 in this case.
I certainly don't meet the standards I want to reach.
Some people record themselves and remain delusional. I think most will think they sound like crap--and most people would be right
Just as an example, here's a recording I made of myself recently:
http://www.box.net/shared/hoyd1qb7v1 . Not perfect, but a far cry better than when I first started recording myself.
Perhaps a better yardstick is if others want to play with you. Usually one plays decently if others are happy to play tunes with you.
# Posted on May 25th 2011 by JPFlute
Re: How do you know if your playing is good?
(K-I-S-S) Keep-It-Simple-Stupid. If people like it, act on it in enjoyment; then they like it! You did your job as far as they are concerned.
# Posted on May 25th 2011 by celticturntable
Re: How do you know if your playing is good?
Its just a saying, not calling anybody stupid.... Is that a tomato coming my way, Yikes!!
# Posted on May 25th 2011 by celticturntable
Re: How do you know if your playing is good?
JPFlute---nice playing! Digging the pulse. And that's how ya know you're good!Thank you! Needed a good tune near midnight...
# Posted on May 25th 2011 by shanty
Re: How do you know if your playing is good?
Damn bubbly too-nice. I love the flute. Ive tried several times to play one but can't get a SOUND outta the damn things.
# Posted on May 25th 2011 by shanty
Re: How do you know if your playing is good?
If you can't tell if you're good or not you're probably not.....JPFlute is good. It aint hard to figure out.
# Posted on May 25th 2011 by shanty
Re: How do you know if your playing is good?
llig, aren't you being a bit hypocritical there? You're the one that's always telling us that people need to be more self aware of their own playing. What good is being self aware of your playing if you aren't evaluating it for what's right and wrong about it?
Here's a quote from a couple years ago:
.. "If you think your intonation, phrasing, tone, anything is OK when it's not, you simply aren't listening well enough. It seems weird to point out that loads of people actually don't listen to themselves when they play, but it's true."
So on one hand, we're supposed to listen to our own playing to be aware of whether it's good or not, but on the other hand, we're not supposed to be evaluating whether it's good?
# Posted on May 25th 2011 by Reverend
Re: How do you know if your playing is good?
If you can't tell whether what you're doing is good or not, then
how can it be good? It might be good once in a while by
accident maybe. You have to have a mental picture of what
you're trying to achieve and be able to rate yourself against it in
"real time".
For myself the mental discourse is usually something like ... "fail,
fail, good, fail, oh that's better, fail, fail, great, fail, fail, oops, ok,
fail, fail, ok ...". Then a week later on that tune there might be
few less "fails" and few more "oks".
# Posted on May 25th 2011 by Hup
Re: How do you know if your playing is good?
The foot-tapping / grooving reaction is a pretty good test -
especially if you're seeing it but it doesn't throw you off your
game. That means you've got control over yourself and your
instrument. I'm not claiming that for myself, but I think that's a
pretty good test for this kind of music - dance music.
# Posted on May 25th 2011 by Hup
Re: How do you know if your playing is good?
The same way that you know someone else's playing is good.
# Posted on May 25th 2011 by gam
Re: How do you know if your playing is good?
Hypothetically speaking one threads very thin ice referencing names of people other members happen to know well.
# Posted on May 25th 2011 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: How do you know if your playing is good?
If people with something better to do, take the time to stop and listen, then I must be doing something right.
Whether I feel that way or not - well that is a different matter.
But like my mother told me, sometimes you don't need to explain you just need to say "Thank you".
# Posted on May 25th 2011 by MorganYYZ
Re: How do you know if your playing is good?
Reverend, I reckon you can analyse your playing and learn from it without mentally rating yourself on some sort of scale of; crap-poor-okay-good-tommy peoples.
# Posted on May 25th 2011 by stoneboy2
Re: How do you know if your playing is good?
Mornin' I like a lot of the above posts. An alternative answer is that who cares! no one going to live or die because of what we can or can not do in this field, its just Music FFS
Attaining ability in most things is merely the result of applying your self with patience, persistence and open mindedness, its not so complicated!
People have a terrible tendency to pump up the ego when they become good at something, they attach their concept of who they are, to the skill obtained. But the reality is that age and life brings us all to earth eventually, we lose what we have worked so hard for. If our ego, and self image rests on these material things then what do we have when we lose them?
Our memories and friendships, , god willing our children. These things are much more important , how we look back on our lives may dictate if we die bitter and torn, or at peace.
The first day I sat in a wheelchair with the realisation I might never walk again I understood that there is more to life than attaining material possessions, skills and abilities. When I realised that all the ability id built up over years of training was gone It was not an easy lesson I assure you. Lady luck was with me and a few months later i was up and about., Hamdillah , but it could so easily have gone the other way. A lesson that I will always remember.
I recently spent a good bit of time with a Canadian musician who slowly, due to a debilitating disease lost nearly everyability that he had. he could have given up, but no he hitches round the world in a wheelchair, busking with the mouthorgan he can still play ,for now, living rough and crawling so as to be independent. Thats impressive my friends, not whether you can play a feckin tune .
If your a w*nker to the people around , its no odds to me if you can play Brahms or Shostakovitch with one hand tied behind your back while standing on your head on a tightrope, your still a w*nker! all be it one who has a good show. [ not directed at anyone here ok in case any of you with paranoid delusions or delusions of grandeur think it is]
@mr Gumby. Yes I know you do Peter, so it should be a simple matter to confirm my statements, after all, you were pointing your camera at us last week were you not?
# Posted on May 25th 2011 by piobagusfidil
Re: How do you know if your playing is good?
Mornin' I like a lot of the above posts. An alternative answer is that who cares! no one going to live or die because of what we can or can not do in this field, its just Music FFS
Attaining ability in most things is merely the result of applying your self with patience, persistence and open mindedness, its not so complicated!
People have a terrible tendency to pump up the ego when they become good at something, they attach their concept of who they are, to the skill obtained. But the reality is that age and life brings us all to earth eventually, we lose what we have worked so hard for. If our ego, and self image rests on these material things then what do we have when we lose them?
Our memories and friendships, , god willing our children. These things are much more important , how we look back on our lives may dictate if we die bitter and torn, or at peace.
The first day I sat in a wheelchair with the realisation I might never walk again I understood that there is more to life than attaining material possessions, skills and abilities. When I realised that all the ability id built up over years of training was gone It was not an easy lesson I assure you. Lady luck was with me and a few months later i was up and about., Hamdillah , but it could so easily have gone the other way. A lesson that I will always remember.
I recently spent a good bit of time with a Canadian musician who slowly, due to a debilitating disease lost nearly everyability that he had. he could have given up, but no he hitches round the world in a wheelchair, busking with the mouthorgan he can still play ,for now, living rough and crawling so as to be independent. Thats impressive my friends, not whether you can play a feckin tune .
If your a w*nker to the people around , its no odds to me if you can play Brahms or Shostakovitch with one hand tied behind your back while standing on your head on a tightrope, your still a w*nker! all be it one who has a good show. [ not directed at anyone here ok in case there is any of you with paranoid delusions or delusions of grandeur that think it is]
@mr Gumby. Yes I know you do Peter, so it should be a simple matter to confirm my statements, after all, you were pointing your camera at us last week were you not?
# Posted on May 25th 2011 by piobagusfidil
Re: How do you know if your playing is good?
AAAgh duplicate post!!! feck, sorry about that browser error!
# Posted on May 25th 2011 by piobagusfidil
Re: How do you know if your playing is good?
I think you can only tell if you are playing accurately - rhythm, all the notes in the right place etc-but I don't think you can tell if you are playing good or not. it's like looking in a mirror at yourself, you never see yourself how other people see you. Likewise you never hear yourself the same way other people hear you. There's always something not quite how you would like it to sound and that's what keeps you motivated I suppose. I never would say I've finished learning the whistle even though I've been playing it 40odd years! patx
# Posted on May 25th 2011 by Pat Walsh
Re: How do you know if your playing is good?
Ben, 'twas yhaalhouse, not you, who I was challenging. You just happened to get in a quick post in between his and mine, that's all. I know you're no jig.
# Posted on May 25th 2011 by Steve Shaw
Re: How do you know if your playing is good?
@ Reverend -- "So on one hand, we're supposed to listen to our own playing to be aware of whether it's good or not, but on the other hand, we're not supposed to be evaluating whether it's good?" I'm sure that llig, with his highly-attuned and refined people skills, can speak for himself, but there's a difference between whether something is *good* and whether it is *right*. You can be self-critical without assigning goodness to your playing. I'm happy if something comes out the way I meant it to. I do consider how good the tune is, and whether or not I can do it justice, but I don't even consider how good I am.
# Posted on May 25th 2011 by gam
Re: How do you know if your playing is good?
I always rate my playing based on other people's reactions using the following guidelines:
If they say something like "Nice tune" or "Nice playing," they're being encouraging to someone who is clearly crap and needs the encouragement.
If they clap after the tune, same as above.
If they don't say anything at all, it means it sucked and they are too nice to comment.
If they get up and go out for a fag/bar/loo while I'n playing, it means it really sucks.
If they don't, it doesn't mean they're not thinking about doing so.
If someone stops playing mid-set, it means my rhythm, timing, phrasing, tuning, or all of the above are total pants.
If they ask how long I've been playing, it means I've really sucked some serious balls.
Welcome to my weird little neurotic world. Is it any wonder I go through phases of really disliking sessions. More often than not I get into a right freaked out state in the middle of one.
# Posted on May 25th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: How do you know if your playing is good?
I make all my assessments at home. If I play, and the cat stays in the room, it means it's still not good, but better than last time.
# Posted on May 25th 2011 by Weejie
Re: How do you know if your playing is good?
Here, kitty kitty kitty...
# Posted on May 25th 2011 by gam
Re: How do you know if your playing is good?
I like it best when no-one overtly reacts, and I don't care if they go for a lash, etc., in the middle of my playing. All it means is that what I'm doing is not a performance, and they know it.
# Posted on May 25th 2011 by Steve Shaw
Re: How do you know if your playing is good?
I guess one more thing would be if you like your own playing. A lot of us know what it's like hearing all of our mistakes, everything we'd like to change, make sound better. So if one day, we suddenly like listening to ourselves, rather than nagging ourselves about every little mistake, maybe we've accomplished something that not many do. Getting over ourselves. One thing, if you're good, you're good. Just because you understand that you can get better doesn't mean you're not already great, it just means you're not perfect.
# Posted on May 25th 2011 by fiddlelearner
Re: How do you know if your playing is good?
Reverend, Yes, there is an interesting dichotomy.
Listening is the key to any music, of course, whether you are listening to just yourself, yourself and others, or just others. But I'm sure the best of this music does not come from people listening to themselves and constantly saying to themselves stuff like, "fail, fail, good, fail, oh that's better, fail, fail, great, fail, fail, oops, ok, fail, fail, ok ...". And I'm absolutely positive that the best of this music does not come from people listening to themselves and constantly saying to themselves stuff like, "good, good, ok, great, good, fab, good, brilliant ..."
Listening to music should not be a constant critical appraisal. It's not like that, it's art. I feel sorry for those judges of those fleadh competitions. I wonder if they can ever switch off their "judging" heads and just listen for the fun of it.
And there seem to be a lot of answers here that merely rate the critical appraisal of others. i.e. "If people applaud me, I must be good". This is silly nonsense of course. Ask Lady Ga Ga if she thinks she's good.
For me, personally, I never rate myself. Though I do, however, enjoy myself when I'm surprised, whether being surprised by others or surprising myself.
# Posted on May 25th 2011 by ...
Re: How do you know if your playing is good?
llig, about the appraisal of others. Some of us are performers. To us other peoples' opinions actually matter. You made a good point though. Another thing, i rate myself to check my progress. Example, when i started learning fiddle/violin i would hate "trying" to practice. Some days i would try, then for weeks i wouldn't even take it outof it's case. Now, 1 year and near 6 months later, i actually really enjoy practicing. I'm in a different place than i was last year, so i must be making good progress.
# Posted on May 25th 2011 by fiddlelearner
Re: How do you know if your playing is good?
My playing is momentarily good if I find myself grooving along to music that's coming out of an instrument that's in my hands at the time.
# Posted on May 25th 2011 by Phil T. Doherty
Re: How do you know if your playing is good?
Jerone, look up the story of Henry Bohannon that Séamus Ennis used to tell. In essence it displays the gap between playing to please yourself and playing to please the others.
There's a lesson in there.
# Posted on May 25th 2011 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: How do you know if your playing is good?
From a performer's point of view, the only real essential thing is that you enjoy yourself. For nothing is easier to communicate than enjoyment. But if you are rating yourself as you perform, this will be communicated to your audience, and they will then rate you also. And even if you are brilliant, they'll be saying, he's not as brilliant as the other guy.
# Posted on May 25th 2011 by ...
Re: How do you know if your playing is good?
I am not sure you need to project enjoyment, many musicians project other emotions. I have never come away after hearing Tommy Peoples with the sense he was enjoying himself pouring his heart out as he did. . But it was the fact he bared his soul through his music, honest and personal, that made his music speak. Mary Bergin said listening to him makes her cry for example.
# Posted on May 25th 2011 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: How do you know if your playing is good?
Yeah, you're probably right when you get to that kind of level. You can start to communicate more complex things than mere enjoyment. But it's a good place to start.
# Posted on May 25th 2011 by ...
Re: How do you know if your playing is good?
The question reminds me of an interview done with Seamus Ó Beaglaoich after a concert with Jim Murray. The interviewer asked him "how do you know when you've played a good gig?" to which Begley responded;
" If we get payed, and we sell loads of CDs, and nobody comes up and tells us we're sh*te".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Rs2q_9GaiU
# Posted on May 25th 2011 by dinn2
Re: How do you know if your playing is good?
If people invite you to play with them, then you're doing OK.
If you see people huddling in corners, trying to arrange gigs and sessions without you overhearing them, then you probably need more practice.
# Posted on May 25th 2011 by skreech
Re: How do you know if your playing is good?
"..Listening to music should not be a constant critical appraisal. It's not like that, it's art."
Fair enough. I tend not to "rate" my own playing all that much, other than whether I felt that there was a good groove, and whether I had fun...
But it seems like Ben's OP was really talking more about whether your self image of your own playing is accurate, not necessarily whether other people think it is "good".
# Posted on May 25th 2011 by Reverend
Re: How do you know if your playing is good?
Well, if noone else is in the room... Maybe, you notice that your instrument isn't wailing and crying, or shrieking as if it was being tortured. My fiddle would make sounds as if someone was getting ready to through it in the fireplace... "No! Stop! I don't deserve this!"
# Posted on May 25th 2011 by fiddlelearner
Re: How do you know if your playing is good?
I know my playing is good when I play a tune well that I enjoy listening to, and if somebody else enjoys it........that's a bonus!.
# Posted on May 25th 2011 by Free Reed
Re: How do you know if your playing is good?
When your colleagues cease to throw chairs, empty glasses or tomatoes in your direction.
# Posted on May 25th 2011 by Gerry_McCartney
Re: How do you know if your playing is good?
Dunno if it has been said already but the answer is simple
Enter a comhaltas competition and the adjudicators will tell you if your good or not. Read the adjudication sheet and they will tell you how to improve - Simple
# Posted on May 25th 2011 by balledfan
Re: How do you know if your playing is good?
Rev, I think that's exactly what Michael's getting at: many people don't really listen to themselves when playing, may not even know *how* to listen to themselves while playing, and so their self-image isn't at all accurate.
And if you rely of the reaction of people with no real understanding of the music, then you are likely deluding yourself (a la Lady Gaga).
# Posted on May 25th 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: How do you know if your playing is good?
In other words, it's easy to think you're "good" when you're so caught up in yourself that you don't notice that your intonation, rhythm, and feel are all off.
# Posted on May 25th 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: How do you know if your playing is good?
Hypothetically speaking, of course....
# Posted on May 25th 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: How do you know if your playing is good?
Thanks for the responses. I like there doesn't seem to be a consensus. I'm not asking for any definitive answer. Indeed there is a dichotomy, I think this is obvious; just not too easy to put into words. These discussions bring up paradoxes & ambiguities. I think of this as a good thing. But it's just a single thought, it's not something I'm constantly pondering as I play. That's one distraction too many & it would wreck my playing worse than what I'm already doing to wreck a few tunes. ;)
Steve Shaw, thanks for letting me know. Those post (& cross-posts) were coming at a time when I would otherwise have been getting ready for the Tuesday night session. With the cross posts I didn't sort all of the responses. I'll read back over those comments. Cheers!
# Posted on May 25th 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: How do you know if your playing is good?
For me your playing is good once you reach the expectations you have for yourself, recording yourself is a neutral help in the process of self evaluation in being able to separate the dream from the reality.
ideally your expectations are continuously advancing and every now and then you reach or surpass those expectations at which point you say to yourself "did I just do that", but you immediately move the bar a little higher.
This process continues, until one day you realise you are obsessed.
# Posted on May 25th 2011 by Theirlandais
Re: How do you know if your playing is good?
"When your colleagues cease to throw chairs, empty glasses or tomatoes in your direction."
May 25th 2011 by Gerry_McCartney
Blues Brothers ~ "Rawhide"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_KtQ1BqfHM
# Posted on May 25th 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: How do you know if your playing is good?
I received this advice many years ago from an old feller at a session in Camlough. "You won't know how good you are until you stop thinking how good you are."
It took me another ten years or so to grasp his point.
# Posted on May 25th 2011 by Scorpion de Rooftrouser
Re: How do you know if your playing is good?
Scorpion, that advice is very zen like. It's along the same lines of what Buddha said about breathing & thinking; or what he expressed in the story of the raft.
# Posted on May 25th 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: How do you know if your playing is good?
No. He was just telling me to stop thinking I was God's gift to fiddling and concentrate on the basics. Nothing to do with zen.
# Posted on May 25th 2011 by Scorpion de Rooftrouser
Re: How do you know if your playing is good?
Beg pardon. No offense intended.
# Posted on May 25th 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: How do you know if your playing is good?
I like that scorpion. Very succinct.
And it particularly rings true to all those people everybody knows who have great technique but remain rubbish.
But there remains a deeper problem with fools like jig. He clearly believes he's god's gift, his postings/boastings are not in the least bit unambiguous on the matter. But as anyone who's heard his pitiful recordings know, there's a great deal of delusion involved.
Or is it delusion? I think this question is maybe what Ben was really trying to ask.
I think that the answer lies in the fact that when it comes down to it, there really is no difference between those who are clearly technically brilliant, but lack any form of musicality, and those who can't even keep an even rhythm but genuinely think they can. Both are hopeless because both base their music on their ability to rate themselves.
# Posted on May 25th 2011 by ...
Re: How do you know if your playing is good?
There is no try ...
;)
# Posted on May 25th 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: How do you know if your playing is good?
ha ha
# Posted on May 25th 2011 by ...
Re: How do you know if your playing is good?
"When your colleagues cease to throw chairs, empty glasses or tomatoes in your direction" GMcC
You really know you've made it when they take the tomatoes out of the tins first before they throw them.
# Posted on May 25th 2011 by Free Reed
Re: How do you know if your playing is good?
You know you're getting better when people you haven't seen at a session for a good long while seem surprised that you can play anything at all.
# Posted on May 25th 2011 by RichardB
Re: How do you know if your playing is good?
I know I'm good because I like to listen to me. That's why I play.
# Posted on May 25th 2011 by Ailin
Re: How do you know if your playing is good?
If you're any good, you don't think you are.
... mind you, loads of people who are complete crap also think they're no good ...
# Posted on May 25th 2011 by ethical blend
Re: How do you know if your playing is good?
When they call for you to play a charity event and offer you money - then you are good enough.
I wish I had this problem.
# Posted on May 26th 2011 by MorganYYZ
Re: How do you know if your playing is good?
Hasn't anybody here ever watch X factor / Idol auditions??
delusion central.
Everybody who plays must think they are good some level, otherwise they wouldn't be keeping it up. Its the same with everything, like painting and football, people keep it up cos they believe that they could be (or could have been) the next van gogh or maradonna... This aint criticism of course, if you dont have some sort of self-belief, whats the point?
# Posted on May 26th 2011 by person
Re: How do you know if your playing is good?
Congratulations to my mate Ben on getting exactly 100 posts!
Oops
# Posted on May 26th 2011 by boxdad
Re: How do you know if your playing is good?
Heard Butte County had a twister yesterday afternoon. Maybe that can be taken as the sign you're looking for. Nah, probably not. A good sign that you're doing something right is if little kids are moved to spin in circles when you play. Enjoy it while it lasts.
# Posted on May 26th 2011 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: How do you know if your playing is good?
It was south of here, in Durham. Some trees came down.
Rain, wind, & hail over 2 days; but no one was raptured.
http://www.thesession.org/recordings/display/49
# Posted on May 26th 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: How do you know if your playing is good?
You know.
Believe me, you just know.
# Posted on May 26th 2011 by bodhran bliss
Re: How do you know if your playing is good?
They call you "Manitas de Plata" !
# Posted on May 27th 2011 by Manitas de Merde
Re: How do you know if your playing is good?
IMO you should go by the opinions of well respected trad musicians who know you well enough to have a good understanding of your ability.
Secondly the reactions of the average joe on the street who knows nothing but knows what they like.
So if you start up at a session thats been quite and the crowd gathers round and start whooping etc then their opinion is of value as well as serious trad musicians.
In fact I dont think either can be taken in isolation. If some trad musicians think your great, but the punters dont care for it. or if the punters love it but the guys with serious reputations dont, then these situations are both cause for concern.
Is this agreed? or....
# Posted on May 27th 2011 by piobagusfidil
Re: How do you know if your playing is good?
Pretty much nailed it... I know lots of players who are excellent, but dancers dont like dancing to them, because their drive isnt there... Playing is good, but the crowd could take it or leave it...
It also depends on what you consider "good" to be. What is the goal/purpose in "Good"?
# Posted on May 27th 2011 by celticturntable
Re: How do you know if your playing is good?
very good question... hmm...
# Posted on May 27th 2011 by piobagusfidil