Sometimes raising or flattening a note can change the nature of a tune and can be could fun. Replacing the middle f natural in the last part of the flogging reel to an f sharp or c sharps in the concertina reel in the second part to c naturals.
If any do it what tunes do ye like to change a note in? Or should tunes be left alone?
I've changed how I play Paddy on the Turnpipe to fsharps. Also another is Shaskeen Reel and The Sligo Fancy can go F-naturals in some cases. Can be fun, but your accompanist could have nightmares over this...
An oft cited reason for accompanists to know when to sit out, if you have one at all. The music doesn't need harmonic accompaniment, and sometimes (frequently, even) it gets in the way.
Tunes like Blackhaired Lass commonly get played in both Amix and Ador, depending on whether you sharp or natural the c's. Neither is wrong, and neither is necessarily wrong.
I like to find a sweet note that just slightly changes the character of a tune--like fitting a c nat into Road to Glountane (when played in G) on that repeating phrase in the B Part:
Should tunes be left alone? Certainly not, as long as you are aware of what you are doing and why. As has been said before on these pages, changing one note by a semi-tone can alter the whole character of a tune.
I heard two versions of "The Rolling Waves", one uses C# and the other Cnatural. (or in other words, changing it from D major to Dmixolydian). I use it as a variation since i like playing it several times through.
Bear in mind a lot of this comes from the fact these notes are often played as 'in between notes' . Their intonation not quite natural or sharp. Fixed pitch instruments have to make a decision and pick either. Scotch Mary is another one, either c or c sharps in that one. The Ewe reel comes with both Fs in separate versions too. I must say I originally learned the Flogging reel from Patsy Touhey's recording and still cringe at the third part full of c and f natural. I have a lovely version from Tony Linnane these days though, that has a much more interesting third part.
Paddy Fahey plays his intervals pretty much as perfect tempered intervals. Try that on a concertina!
Some common accidentals i've seen in popular music is(the one i mentioned above) flattening the 7th scale degree(which changes the 7th chord from *diminished* to a *flatMajor*), sharping the 5th scale degree(which changes the 3rd chord from minor to Major) and flattening the 6th(which changes the 4th chord from Major to minor.) It makes the music sound a lot more interesting, and a bit more fun to play because there's more freedom.
The term "neutral" goes back to Helmholtz, at least. The first precise description of a neutral interval goes back to Mansur Zalzal about 1200 years ago.
Neutral thirds and neutral sevenths are pretty different in musical purpose. I'd say Zalzal got it right in not creating a general term for both.
Zalzal had a specific note in mind - third above the tonic. He described how to calculate the fret placement for it (not a lot of use for Irish music, where few if any tunes use a neutral F or C consistently all the way through).
BTW Zalzal's scale is very close to that of the Highland pipes.
Yes, I play different phrases. I don't know about the Liffey Banks, but you can change a phrase without compromising the integrity of the tune. And provided the alteration 'fits' with the original, I wouldn't discount playing it in a session. It's half the enjoyment.
But if you listen to the wee midi download, you will find theres lot's of fancy Flat's/ Sharp's in the Dot's...
We play less is more, or otherwise it sound's too Classical etc.
I find anyway -
jim,,,
Changing notes in a tune
Changing notes in a tune
Sometimes raising or flattening a note can change the nature of a tune and can be could fun. Replacing the middle f natural in the last part of the flogging reel to an f sharp or c sharps in the concertina reel in the second part to c naturals.
If any do it what tunes do ye like to change a note in? Or should tunes be left alone?
# Posted on May 23rd 2011 by premier
Re: Changing notes in a tune
I've changed how I play Paddy on the Turnpipe to fsharps. Also another is Shaskeen Reel and The Sligo Fancy can go F-naturals in some cases. Can be fun, but your accompanist could have nightmares over this...
# Posted on May 23rd 2011 by celticturntable
Re: Changing notes in a tune
An oft cited reason for accompanists to know when to sit out, if you have one at all. The music doesn't need harmonic accompaniment, and sometimes (frequently, even) it gets in the way.
Tunes like Blackhaired Lass commonly get played in both Amix and Ador, depending on whether you sharp or natural the c's. Neither is wrong, and neither is necessarily wrong.
I like to find a sweet note that just slightly changes the character of a tune--like fitting a c nat into Road to Glountane (when played in G) on that repeating phrase in the B Part:
BAAG BAAG|BAAG EG D2|
try this instead:
BAAG BAAG|cBAG EG D2|
# Posted on May 23rd 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: Changing notes in a tune
Anything by Paddy Fahy.
# Posted on May 23rd 2011 by ElaineT
Re: Changing notes in a tune
Argh. Fahey. This board needs an edit button for people who make typos easily.
# Posted on May 23rd 2011 by ElaineT
Re: Changing notes in a tune
Should tunes be left alone? Certainly not, as long as you are aware of what you are doing and why. As has been said before on these pages, changing one note by a semi-tone can alter the whole character of a tune.
# Posted on May 23rd 2011 by gam
Re: Changing notes in a tune
I heard two versions of "The Rolling Waves", one uses C# and the other Cnatural. (or in other words, changing it from D major to Dmixolydian). I use it as a variation since i like playing it several times through.
# Posted on May 23rd 2011 by fiddlelearner
Re: Changing notes in a tune
Bear in mind a lot of this comes from the fact these notes are often played as 'in between notes' . Their intonation not quite natural or sharp. Fixed pitch instruments have to make a decision and pick either. Scotch Mary is another one, either c or c sharps in that one. The Ewe reel comes with both Fs in separate versions too. I must say I originally learned the Flogging reel from Patsy Touhey's recording and still cringe at the third part full of c and f natural. I have a lovely version from Tony Linnane these days though, that has a much more interesting third part.
Paddy Fahey plays his intervals pretty much as perfect tempered intervals. Try that on a concertina!
# Posted on May 23rd 2011 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: Changing notes in a tune
Some common accidentals i've seen in popular music is(the one i mentioned above) flattening the 7th scale degree(which changes the 7th chord from *diminished* to a *flatMajor*), sharping the 5th scale degree(which changes the 3rd chord from minor to Major) and flattening the 6th(which changes the 4th chord from Major to minor.) It makes the music sound a lot more interesting, and a bit more fun to play because there's more freedom.
# Posted on May 23rd 2011 by fiddlelearner
Re: Changing notes in a tune
The intonation of the flattened 7th in Irish music is not quite the same as the one used in popular music. C and F neutrals are a thing of their own.
# Posted on May 23rd 2011 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: Changing notes in a tune
What do you mean by "C and F naturals..."? In reference to the key of D?
# Posted on May 23rd 2011 by fiddlelearner
Re: Changing notes in a tune
I said C and F neutrals. Different thing.
# Posted on May 23rd 2011 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: Changing notes in a tune
Oh! Haha, i read it wrong. Mybad lol. Wait... what's a neutral? What you were talking about above with the "...in between notes..."?
# Posted on May 23rd 2011 by fiddlelearner
Re: Changing notes in a tune
Yes, it's neither sharp not flat, it's somewhere in between. They're the 'blue' notes of Irish music
# Posted on May 23rd 2011 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: Changing notes in a tune
Ahhhh. Ok.
# Posted on May 23rd 2011 by fiddlelearner
Re: Changing notes in a tune
"neutrals"? you made that up...
# Posted on May 23rd 2011 by gam
Re: Changing notes in a tune
Better known as bum or banjo notes :p
# Posted on May 23rd 2011 by Solidmahog
Re: Changing notes in a tune
Check out what this guy does to 'My Love is in America' around 2.37 in the video... it fairly changes the character of the tune.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kb2-lYKommU
# Posted on May 23rd 2011 by Pat Mustard
Re: Changing notes in a tune
The term "neutral" goes back to Helmholtz, at least. The first precise description of a neutral interval goes back to Mansur Zalzal about 1200 years ago.
Neutral thirds and neutral sevenths are pretty different in musical purpose. I'd say Zalzal got it right in not creating a general term for both.
# Posted on May 23rd 2011 by Jack Campin
Re: Changing notes in a tune
Yes but you're talking about intervals, Jack. The Prof is talking about notes.
# Posted on May 23rd 2011 by gam
Re: Changing notes in a tune
Zalzal had a specific note in mind - third above the tonic. He described how to calculate the fret placement for it (not a lot of use for Irish music, where few if any tunes use a neutral F or C consistently all the way through).
BTW Zalzal's scale is very close to that of the Highland pipes.
# Posted on May 23rd 2011 by Jack Campin
Re: Changing notes in a tune
Yes, I play different phrases. I don't know about the Liffey Banks, but you can change a phrase without compromising the integrity of the tune. And provided the alteration 'fits' with the original, I wouldn't discount playing it in a session. It's half the enjoyment.
# Posted on May 23rd 2011 by gam
Re: Changing notes in a tune
Ditto what gam said. I tinker with the melody all the time. The fun is in coming up with something significantly different yet that still blends.
# Posted on May 23rd 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: Changing notes in a tune
Well here is a video of us guys playing ' The Coleraine Jig ' in or session last Saturday,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0bLcmITPT00
And I linked it to this site.
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/17
But if you listen to the wee midi download, you will find theres lot's of fancy Flat's/ Sharp's in the Dot's...
We play less is more, or otherwise it sound's too Classical etc.
I find anyway -
jim,,,
# Posted on May 23rd 2011 by FIDDLE4