Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
I'd thought I'd share a couple clips of both myself and my buddy Mark Sullivan (National Fiddle Champ) doing some techniques which will take some practice. These can be used quite regularly in everyday playing once you master them, but get ready to practice! In any case, once you have perfected them, it will open up a book of possibilities.
First is a technique for fiddle called Ricochet Bowing. The basics are to find your midpoint on the bow, where the natural bounce is maximized. Skinner has a good sheet music version for "Bank's Hornpipe". You probably dont want to use this specific roll too often as it is seen as chording with the fiddle, but rather the action in your playing. This will loosen your arm up in no time. It is great for chromatic rolls... You'll hear lots in my clip. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fC6PG6yaFP0
Second, is a triplet variant. This is an even greater challenge than ricochet bowing. The basics are, instead of bowing each and every individual note in a triplet (i.e. in a hornpipe maybe), you can play them in sets of 2.
Here is a poor attempt at Illustration:
(Play Sweeps Hornpipe>> ag| (3fgf (3efe (3ded (3cdc | (3BcB (3ABA G2ba |
Now organize the triplets in 2 note groupings per bow. Most play either 1 or 3 per bow. In order to master this one, you'll need to slow down and internalize your arm movements.
Here is Mark playing a French Canadian Tune with the technique in use http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JywPPLGBnIk @ 0:26
Hopefully this gives you a challenge. And I'm sure the second is not limited to fiddle.
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
this is "Le Rossignol". I can send you the sheet music from Jean Carignan if you'd like. Mark plays it with a repetitious part whereas the original melody has a seperate ending.
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
No, and you're not even a good wind-up artist.
I've heard that clip of the Banks before, just can't place whose it is. Alasdair Fraser? Besides, I can see that you're not doing vibrato or moving your bow arm near as fluidly (even accounting for the camera) as need be to get that sound.
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
Sigh. More to the point, your written "explanation" of how to do sautille bowing doesn't actually explain how to do it. And what you've posted about the triplets in your second example isn't at all clear.
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
Peter, as far as I can find, all your other clips have the same cheesy reverb and unwatchable video. It's not at all clear that you're actually producing the sound in the audios.
Look, kudos to you if that's really you playing. Why disguise it then?
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
Please listen to the recording of Mark and try to duplicate his action. The triplets have to be played in sets of 2 notes per bow. Dont roll 3 on one bow or you will not get the desire effect.
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
Yeah, the clip of Mark is great, thanks for that.
I'd prefer to hear you without all the reverb.
And I just played Mark's triplet run back at 1/4 speed and can't hear a 2-note slur (if slur is what you mean by "roll") at all. Each triplet sounds single bowed, a not unusual way to play such runs.
I'd be really interested in understanding how Mark actually bows that run, just out of curiosity. I've played some with April Vertch and Calvin Vollrath and they both single-bowed such runs, or did slurs across two triplets at a time.
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
This is most definitely 2 per bow. just try it. It takes time. This is not a technique you'd want to do all the time, just a now and then effect. Yeah I know both April and Calvin, Mark and the whole crew.
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
I figured you'd know April and Calvin--great folks. I know them through teaching at Montana Fiddle Camp, where Calvin is a regular instructor year after year, and April makes it out whenever her schedule allows.
So are you saying slur two notes (paired here in parentheses) while (obviously) keeping the triplet rhythm: (fg)(fe)(fe)(de)(dc)(dc)(Bc)(BA)(BA)G2 ?
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
Im playing it now on the fiddle and yep (fg)(fe)(fe)(de)(dc)(dc)(Bc)(BA)(BA)G2. Its hard to destinguish between 3note grouping, but you get that laugh sound as Jean Carignan's described. My friend Gilles Losier has validated this as well. Once you build your speed, and combined with the 2note groupings, you'll jump the bow and get this exact effect.
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
That's nice playing. And I do believe it's you, I've used CoolEdit to add reverb before so I know how easy it is to make a home recording sound that way.
I'm not a big fan of lifting or bouncing the bow in Irish music though, it just doesn't sound right to me.
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
Looking at 0:25-0:28, it does look like he might be splitting things 2-2, though at 2:08 he plays the same run of triplets and clearly splits them in 3s. Honestly, I'm not sure I can discern the difference without the video. The bow is bouncing so much that I'm hearing that much more clearly than I'm hearing the individual bowstrokes.
It's novel. I might give a whack at it tomorrow morning, and I'll be looking for it in other fiddlers in the future... Though my own personal jury is still out as far as how much it actually matters.
For what it's worth, here's another recording of the Banks, from Cape Breton fiddler Dwayne Cote, that I think is worthy of mention:
There are a few Irish fiddlers who bounce the bow (eg: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TL7OYehr8z8 at at 5:22), but for the most part, you can take or leave the fiddley tricks. If they work for you, that's great, but the "Italian tricks" more often tend to interfere with that to which Irish musicians (IMHO) tend to actually listen--namely lift, ornamentation, and variation; playing the notes that work for the bow-tricks tends to distract from Irish music more than add to it. Perhaps that's part of the reason a fiddler like Carignan--while being incredibly well respected on his right--never really drew much interest from the Irish traddies. To some degree, IMHO, if you allow the bow-tricks to be such a primary feature of how you play a tune, you're missing one of the main points of Irish music (not speaking, of course, for Quebecois music, of which I know relatively little).
Plus, as a side note, I have to confess that my amazement at listening to folks like Carignan, or Dwayne Cote, or any of dozens of Canadian grandmaster fiddlers pull off tricks like that is tempered by the fact that I knew a couple dozen reasonably serious classical violin students in high school who were perfectly capable of executing the same techniques flawlessly. In the end, it's not the ricochet bowing that impresses me, but rather the fact that Carignan/Cote/O'Connor/etc can make it sound natural in the context of traditional music.
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
Heya Peter, I'm sorry if my earlier doubts stung you. I didn't mean to question you abilities as a fiddler--just heard a disconnect. My bad. (But that reverb doesn't do anything for me. )
Good points from Georgi. Calvin Vollrath is another Canadian champ who can throw kitchen sink bowing into a tune and it sounds completely natural. Everything the guy does is musical.
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
Curses. I've just spent half an hour trying to play the second half of The Independent using your two-notes-per-bow method, Peter, and now I need to lie down in a dark room.
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
"I swear I can hear the bow changes on the slo-mo"
Will makes a good point here. It is impossible to make a bow change completely inaudible, certainly at the forensic level. If, when listening to classical violin playing in particular, you think a bow change is inaudible then you can be sure there's some very skilled bowing technique going on, usually coupled with other things happening in the music that help to disguise it (a bit of the old smoke and mirrors).
Getting back to triplets being bowed in 2's, there can be, I think, a suggestion of a gentle 2-against-3 cross-rhythm, and this would be helped by the bow changes not being completely inaudible.
There's another way to bow a rapid descending passage of triplets, and that is to do it all on one bow using staccato for each note so that each note sounds distinctly. It is easier to do this on an up-bow starting at the tip. Here's a fine example of how it's done, both up-bow and down-bow (with a bit of ricochet thrown in): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mag2mc5Vva0.
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
"It is impossible to make a bow change completely inaudible,"
I would suggest that the shift of bow, and the sound it makes, is utilised in fiddle playing to a certain extent. It accents the beat - or offbeat.
Nevertheless, I'm sure I can hear the shift of the bow as I noted earlier. If the video was of better quality and the player filled more of the frame, slowing down the frame rate would probably be conclusive.
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
Just because somebody has to be the boy who points out exactly what the emperor's clothes are made of ...
I thought the first clip was dreadful. Not because of the reverb, but becasuse of the playing. It sounded like poor, classical fiddling to me. Certainly nothing to do with trad.
Now, I do follow the usual 'rule' of not attacking other members'playing. But celticturntable has put himself out there very forcefully, by inviting us to listen to how great he is and to copy what he obviously thinks is a really hard, and well-executed, technique. In those circumstances, I think it's worth pointing out that:
* the techinque isn't hard - routine for classical players
* this is a particularly poor example of it
* it's not much use for trad even if you can do it
* I really, really don't like the classical tone and the barely restrained vibrato in there
* it's obvious to me that it is actually celticturntable playing that clip
[Additional comment from an innocent bystander: "I don't like it. I think the flashiness gets in the way of the rhythm."]
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
No Ben its nothing much to do with one particular traditional approach to music, such as your own, which I might add is very good, But its certainly a traditional approach to music! and Lovely playing IMO.
If the session.org only promotes one regional style and approach to the exclusion of others I feel thats a bit myopic.
Traditional music is played in many parts of the world and these many approaches are valid within their context. Just because its not your or my style does not diminish this validity.
Irish music is played in many styles and many different musics are played in various 'Irish' styles.
Its easy enough from the sidelines to criticise but at least he has the bottle to put his recordings up online.....
I personally incorporate influences from my youth in the Highlands and interest in Scottish music, I also incorporate influences from 20yrs living in Ireland , from 15 yrs on the road and travellers camps the length and breadth of these Islands, that makes my music my own .
One of the things that does not impress me at all is imitations of something , folk trying to be what they are not, clones and players with no nyah. superficially all there but hollow underneath. Id much rather promote music that comes from the individuals own soul, from their own tradition, all be it one they were not born into but found.
If Peter were to play in a West Clare style, would that suit you? but come on he lives in Canada and plays the Traditional style of his people. Its not yours but there is no monopoly on style! how good would music be if everyone cloned Bobby Casey [if only I could! ]
If the technique isnt hard, then you must have mastered it, otherwise how do you know? Give us all a laugh and demonstrate how it should be done!
Seriously though, this site does tend to be somewhat prone to condemning anything that is not in a particular style as though that were the only true way.
Just within Ireland there are so many styles, from Donegal to Kerry and travellers in between. Over the water to Northumbria, Scotland , Shetland, over to the states, the Blue grass settings . to Canada... Nova Scotia....
In fact I object to the attitude that only one style is acceptable, look at what happened to the Pipering of Cape Breton with the influence of a few Scots Piping judges.! nearly destroyed a regional, and highly authentic style in its place a generic British Army/Victorian approach.
Viva La difference.
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
"If the technique isnt hard, then you must have mastered it, otherwise how do you know? Give us all a laugh and demonstrate how it should be done!"
It's simple enough. But I wouldn't ever use it for any kind of trad. Mainly because it gets in the way of the music, IMO. Georgi's right though (as ever ), above, when he suggests something like it's not really appropriate in trad, and the fact that people like Carignan and others employ fancy techniques, and do it in a convincing way that *doesn't* detract is one of the things that's impressive about them. Which means, in my book, that if you're not the sort of genius who can do this and get away with it (and Peter really isn't one of those geniuses) then you'd be better off not doing it.
Could I do the thing now? I mean, I did it back in the day, but I don't do too much solo classical stuff these days, so it doesn't really come up. I think it would take me a day or two to get it back into working order. I just can't see the point, since it isn't going to be any use to me for any of the music I play.
As for differences, I'm all for it - the more the better. But I'm not going to be persuaded to go for something that's just plain horrible.
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
@ethical blend. You're right, im no genius. Just a fiddle player with no classical training. So yeah, it was tough for me to learn those without specific coaching. Eitherway, its fun to do now and then. Sorry I've disappointed you.
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
Well Ben Id agree with you oamost all those points, but I actually prefer Peters setting of the tune to Dwayne Cotes setting because its a touch rawer [does that word exist?]and I think he pulls it off very well.
I agree it would be somewhat out o fplace in a session round here, unless it was a solo, in which case it would be appreciated for what it is, a different style of music, a different stream of tradition.
As far as whether Carignan could play the flash stuff easily, well I have some of his recordings and they are great but hes not always so good on you tube stuff. Age can have a funny way of equalising us all! live recordings are very different to studio stuff.
As regards something horrible, well thats a matter of taste, which in turn is a product of culture. Different cultures have different tastes and ways of living. Yes some people will consider their way to be the right/best way, maybe it is, maybe it isnt....Its all relative.
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
Look, here's the thing, Peter: if you haven't had the classical training to do that, why bother? If you can't pull it off (and you can't), given that it's almost useless for trad, why not try to be a decent trad fiddle player instead? In a few years, you never know, with application, you might get somewhere.
Will, you're not getting me on this one. If it was any good, I'd say "fine, it's not my cup of tea" or whatever. But it's squeaky, scratchy, out of time and cloyingly flashy all at the same time. Are you really trying to tell me that I have to accept this sh*t because it's 'a different style'???
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
"[and I do realize you were addressing the other Will] "
Well, thank goodness for that, at least.
Meanwhile, fine, I'll bear in mind that Peter is a traditional Canadian fiddler. So ... are you telling me that traditional Canadian fiddling is out of time, our of tune, scratchy, squeaky, shrieky, with horrible tone, nasty semi-vibrato, unmusical and generally crap? Oh, and sounds like bad classical fiddling? 'Cos, if so, my bad. I'll try, in future, to respect the different tradition it represents.
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
LOL, no, just saying that the pyrotechnics *are* a part of many Canadian fiddlers' approach to traditional music.
I saw Donnell Leahy in concert last fall. He did things with the bow I didn't know were possible. And he did it with heart and fire and sweetness. If "Leahy" is all you've seen of Donnell, don't judge him by that. I'm not a big fan of whole-stage bands. But Donnell's a brilliant fiddler and musician, and a genuinely lovely person to boot.
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
For future reference, Mr. Blend, would "sounds like bad classical fiddling" be a desirable quality or no? I was also wondering if, in the future, you plan to wake up on a different side of the bed?
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
That's me. Always sitting on the fence. At least it's sturdy, strongly built and with evenly spaced fenceposts. Thank goodness it's not built on traditional Canadian principles, eh?
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
Hmm..... so someone playing a tune from the Scottish tradition, said to be composed by an Italian, has "nothing to do with trad"?
Well, it ain't Irish for sure, but a certain Mr McGuire made a career out of playing in a 'semi classical' manner and that was one of his party pieces.
As for Peter's tone, well, Will at one point said: "I've heard that clip of the Banks before, just can't place whose it is. Alasdair Fraser?". Will may be a pain in the butt at times but he's a damn good fiddler and I'm sure he wouldn't mistake such a poor tone and intonation for the said Mr Fraser.
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
I agree about Will Harmon's playing. I like it. What I've heard of it. However, I have to disagree in this case that Peter's tone and intonation resembles Alasdair Fraser's. I would doubt that Will (H) really thinks that, if he listens again. And, if he does, I think, in this instance, he is mistaken.
Sean Maguire was a genius. I'm really not sure what you're trying to say here, Weejie. I have no problem with anyone who can play. And Sean Maguire could play, and how. I am, of course, very aware that not everyone liked what Sean Maguire did. But I would say that's fine if it isn't to their taste, but it's hard to argue that it wasn't good, IMO. That's not the situation we have here.
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
I don't think I did, in fact. And I wouldn't have. I don't know all that much about it. I referred to a couple of other posts excusing Peter's playing on the grounds that it was traditional Canadian fiddling. It doesn't sound like the decent stuff that I've heard from that part of the world.
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
"I'm really not sure what you're trying to say here, Weejie"
I'm sure of what I said. I would suggest that nothing in my previous post was incorrect - and on that premise, it would cast doubt on the validity of your analysis.
As for Sean McGuire (formerly Maguire), for quote a while, I didn't really take much to his playing, much to the horror of others around me, who reacted very much like some people here did when someone criticised Liz Carroll. Sean had played in the north of Scotland and his style was very much admired. I can see now that it was because it wasn't "the pure drop" as far as I was concerned and I was particularly occupied with listening to the nitty-gritty. I did get to appreciate him more later on - even had a couple of albums (one from Woolworth's) but he was always much of a showman.
Anyway, not the point. The point is that McGuire used fancy staccato techniques that were certainly not part of the Irish tradition. If a Canadian wants to play a Scottish tune (with some possible Italian provenance) then let it be. I won't be applying the technique to my jigs and reels but I'm not going to condemn the man. As for his playing abilities, it is probably down to opinion.
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
D'oh! I didn't mean to imply that Peter sounds like Mr. Fraser. But something about the clip sure reminds me of a studio version of the Banks I've heard. I just can't place it.
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
@ Will Harmon: I for one didn't think you did mean to imply that you thought it was, or sounded like, Alasdair Fraser. I tried to word my reply carefully so as to avoid that implication.
@ Ben Steen. I presume you're saying that I have been sarcastic? I'm sorry if you think so. I was trying, in fact, to state what I thought fairly straightforwardly and plainly. If you need me to say it in a more forthright fashion, I will.
@ Weejie: My point has nothing to do with whether or not to use techniques that aren't part of the run of the mill stuff used in trad. But ... and it really is an enormous and hugely important but ... IF you're going to use stuff that's flashy, outside of the tradition (ie unidiomatic) and very very noticeable, then you'd better make damn' sure you can carry it off. Otherwise, all that energy spent in getting somewhere close to (whilst not actually managing to achieve) these flashy techiniques would, surely, be better spent in actually working on being able to play better generally, wouldn't it?
When Maguire played staccato, did he go out of time? No. Did it seem out of context or unconvincing? No. What he did wasn't flashy - it was impressive. That difference isn't subtle. It's huge.
I guess what you're saying, Weejie, is that, if someone wants to use any techinque, then that's up to them and fair play. Well, fine. But when someone comes on here and says, in effect, "Hey, look at me! I can do this really flashy thing and you should all do it too," well, I reckon somebody needs to point out that, on the evidence presented, it ain't a worthwhlle use of time. Sean Maguire did all sorts of things. Fine. That was Sean Maguire. Other geniuses can also do whatever they want. For us mortals ... well, we'd better get the basics right first, IMO.
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
Yes, I do think some of the comments were sarcastic. For instance, "That's me. Always sitting on the fence. At least it's sturdy, strongly built and with evenly spaced fenceposts. Thank f*ck it's not built on traditional Canadian principles, eh?"
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
Right-o EB. Just wanted to clarify in light of other posters' comments. No biggee.
I'd chalk up Peter's OP to youthful enthusiasm, which I for one would not want to squelch. (My first post on this thread was out of sheer confusion--not being able to square what I was hearing with what little sense I could make out of the video.) Surely he meant well, just dove right in without testing the waters first. Oh well, live and learn....
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
"@ Weejie: My point has nothing to do with whether or not to use techniques that aren't part of the run of the mill stuff used in trad."
Well, you raised five points in you original post and number three was: "it's not much use for trad even if you can do it".
So forgive me for thinking that you were pointing out that the technique was not part of traditional Irish playing.
"I guess what you're saying, Weejie, is that, if someone wants to use any techinque, then that's up to them and fair play"
It was indeed partly what I was saying.
" But when someone comes on here and says, in effect, "Hey, look at me! I can do this really flashy thing and you should all do it too," "
It could be construed that way. Not by me. It came over as someone who was showing off a technique and suggesting that it could be used in trad playing (possible implication of Irish trad playing). It did get up my nose a bit because I was listening to that stuff over three or four decades ago and it's not really anything new - but I'm sure it wasn't intended for old farts like me.
As for Will's "implication that it sounded like Fraser". Not the point I was making. The point being that if it was really that awful, Alasdair Fraser's name surely would not come to mind.
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
LOL, yer right, I didn't think it sounded that awful. Sure it's got some glitches, but the guy's just sitting in his bedroom tossing a tune at the camera.
Some boards actually foster an environment that welcomes sound clips from members and doesn't rip everyone to shreds. Imagine that. I doubt Mustardville will ever be that friendly--a shame--but one can dream....
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
This is a great discussion. I do have to say that I didnt expect to have my playing judged to this extent. The entire purpose was to provide some ideas based off of my interpretations. I'll admit I'm not the best player, but I do have fun with it and there is always something new to learn. Tunes like this one from Kimmel were inspirational to me, Rodney Miller, Tyler Carson, Adrian Dolan and Jean Carignan. This like the Banks arent intended to be used in everyday playing but good to expand horizons sometimes, like a good Breton Tune. Here is another for those interested in a challenging tune. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x1qJL5AYVco
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
Yes and thats typical of the board actually, we can all hear how well Peter plays but Ben slags him so badly that ye might not believe your ears! Certainly a lot more life than Will, sorry fellah but thats my opinion. I mean give it a rest your recordings sound like a kid playing, nice rolls etc but nyah?! zilch.
I mean its all a bit dodgy really isnt it, some guy puts up some playing thats really good and and to defend their patch the resident fiddlers slag off the newcomer, a few acolytes gather round and join in and the guy must start wondering what world ye live on.
Im glad actually because it shows what a complete and utter load of toss that can get posted on here.
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
"your recordings sound like a kid playing, nice rolls etc but nyah?! zilch. "
Um, you did catch that those clips were done for students learning the tunes, slowed down, played steadier than normal? If you think that's how I play in sessions, you're mistaken.
The point wasn't to showcase my prowess, only to demonstrate that it's entirely possible to play with solid intonation, timing, and tone without practicing scales and arpeggios. That was the challenge you put out there.
Jig, I'll take this as your response to my email. If that's the case, then you have far deeper problems than I imagined.
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
Yes, Peter, this board can be pretty harsh. Good on you for taking it in stride and not getting wound up about it. Seriously, you've responded really well and that's much to your credit.
I have to say that I kind of agree with a lot of the points that EB has made, but it's been a bit brutal.
Aside from bow bouncing, I do hear something in your phrasing that sounds very classical and not so fiddly, although I admit I don't know a whole lot about Canadian fiddling. But there's a lyrical quality and a laxity in rhythm that tends to kill dance tunes.
I don't mean that as criticism so much as observation, and I think you have some really good chops on violin. But it leads to a sound that I don't really associate with fiddling. Technique is a means to an end, not an end in itself.
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
How about one more Reverb tune! This is more what I play like, not technical, just tunes. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-G_VSGnk_A
This is fairly representative of East Coast playing (Acadian/CapeBreton Mix)
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
Oh, you need to hear Pembroke! BTW, anybody looking to play 72hours non-stop with some class musicians like April Verch, Shane Cook, Mark Sullivan, Yvon Cuillerier, Calvin Vollrath, Schryer's, etc. Labour Day weekend in Canada...
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
Speak for yourself, Mr. Harmon. Just because someone is up against the odds is no reason to say the door has been closed & locked. That's what Ben Hall seems to be implying.
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
Ben, what Peter's playing isn't Irish traditional music. If you want to open it up to *all* forms of traditional music, we'll need an extra section for Tibetan throat singing, among other things.
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
I use other techniques when I play old timey or contra, or even the little bit of bluegrass I know. But I wouldn't expect Irish fiddlers to be overly interested in shifting into 3rd position, or vibrato, or chromatic doublestop runs.
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
To my ears, it doesn't sound traditional at all, Irish or Old-timey. Maybe that stuff that's played on new year's eve with the galls in the ballgowns....
Not saying it's bad, just not what I would hear at a session or an old-time contest. I've heard Canadians (Masters) play at contests, and it's nothing like that.
It doesn't make me want to tap my foot.
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
It spans lots of genres. A pro like Calvin Vollrath will play anything from his own waltzes (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1jeXh4XetYM&feature=related) to Danny Boy, to Quebecois dance tunes, to Metis, to show tunes, to Rubber Dolly and Western Swing.
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
Granted, I've only heard Canadians at a couple of contests, Weiser and Peace Gardens, a couple of judges (Grand Masters), as well as contestants, and they were probably playing more within the realm of what was expected at old-time contests.
but, these examples here (Cturntables) still didn't make me want to tap my foot.
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
The last one you posted, Will, sounds nothing like what the OP posted. No technical show-off just for the sake of showing off. Also, the bow seemed to be pretty much on the string, except in a few places at the end of phrases. I could find the beat and it made me want to move to the music.
The "acrobatic" stuff, not so much. at all.
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
Well Calvin's a grand national champ, it's bound to sound great. I've hung out with him for a week and he can launch all sorts of acrobatics. But he's also one of the most tasteful players I know.
I'm not trying to justify Peter's playing here--just saying that he's harking to a different style, one that's not uncommon in Canada.
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
I hear ya, it's just not a style I heard played by grand champs from there.
Still not sure what "style" Peter's would be. I've heard Metis, western swing (hung out with Paul, Dick, and Lisa), etc....
But to each their own. I have no desire to replicate it.
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
I am confused here. The OP came in touting a fiddle technique, and it was quite rightly pointed out that his technique didn't really fit the Irish style. I don't see anything wrong with that.
I loved the clip of Mark Sullivan, because I love Quebequois fiddling, but don't see what it has to do with Irish music.
Nothing wrong with talking about a different style on the Mustard Board, I suppose, as long as when you do it you are not confusing apples and oranges.
Now that, for me, is it. Unpretentious, flashy yes, but always with an authentic, convincing voice, a warm heart in his playing and in his dealings with people. One of the best.
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
Eh-rm, for what it's worth, since this thread seems to have evolved into a discussion of Canadian fiddling styles [ - to be honest, I actually have no idea what this thread is really on about - ]...can't help but throw in a few other great canucks:
I suppose they all also have a bit of the acrobatic bowing going on. [I repeat: not really sure what this discussion is about...just wanted to put in my 2 cents]
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
Brunet is a hoot and a half to play with. He is technically brilliant, as well as an incredible improvisational mind. Charming as all get out and one of the funniest people you will meet in several languages.
I learned the second technique listed at the top of this thread (hey, pertinent!) of triplets across 2 bows. The way he does it is to do the bow change in the middle of the second note. Well not precisely in the middle, as he is slightly swinging the duple. But you get a very strong (yet high speed) sense of 2 against 3 with the duple bowing (as well as his feet/podorhythmie) against the triplets. Always done several at a time.
Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
I'd thought I'd share a couple clips of both myself and my buddy Mark Sullivan (National Fiddle Champ) doing some techniques which will take some practice. These can be used quite regularly in everyday playing once you master them, but get ready to practice! In any case, once you have perfected them, it will open up a book of possibilities.
First is a technique for fiddle called Ricochet Bowing. The basics are to find your midpoint on the bow, where the natural bounce is maximized. Skinner has a good sheet music version for "Bank's Hornpipe". You probably dont want to use this specific roll too often as it is seen as chording with the fiddle, but rather the action in your playing. This will loosen your arm up in no time. It is great for chromatic rolls... You'll hear lots in my clip.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fC6PG6yaFP0
Second, is a triplet variant. This is an even greater challenge than ricochet bowing. The basics are, instead of bowing each and every individual note in a triplet (i.e. in a hornpipe maybe), you can play them in sets of 2.
Here is a poor attempt at Illustration:
(Play Sweeps Hornpipe>> ag| (3fgf (3efe (3ded (3cdc | (3BcB (3ABA G2ba |
Now organize the triplets in 2 note groupings per bow. Most play either 1 or 3 per bow. In order to master this one, you'll need to slow down and internalize your arm movements.
Here is Mark playing a French Canadian Tune with the technique in use
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JywPPLGBnIk @ 0:26
Hopefully this gives you a challenge. And I'm sure the second is not limited to fiddle.
Peter Corfield
http://www.CelicTurnTable.com
# Posted on May 21st 2011 by celticturntable
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
Thanks for the post Peter, have you a name for the tune Mark is playing? It's great
Enda
# Posted on May 21st 2011 by Enda Scahill
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
this is "Le Rossignol". I can send you the sheet music from Jean Carignan if you'd like. Mark plays it with a repetitious part whereas the original melody has a seperate ending.
# Posted on May 21st 2011 by celticturntable
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
Le Rossignol I guess!
# Posted on May 21st 2011 by Enda Scahill
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
Um, but why post a video of yourself over someone else playing The Banks? I mean, the audio was clearly a studio recording....
# Posted on May 21st 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
No that is me playing. My Cam sucks
# Posted on May 21st 2011 by celticturntable
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
I used cooledit to add reverb to the audio as it was boxie sounding
# Posted on May 21st 2011 by celticturntable
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
No, and you're not even a good wind-up artist.
I've heard that clip of the Banks before, just can't place whose it is. Alasdair Fraser? Besides, I can see that you're not doing vibrato or moving your bow arm near as fluidly (even accounting for the camera) as need be to get that sound.
# Posted on May 21st 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
I dont appreciate that Will. Check out my other clips. You will have to take your foot out of your mouth.
# Posted on May 21st 2011 by celticturntable
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
Sigh. More to the point, your written "explanation" of how to do sautille bowing doesn't actually explain how to do it. And what you've posted about the triplets in your second example isn't at all clear.
# Posted on May 21st 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
me again. I hate justifying myself this way. but here is clean giveaway that this is in fact me. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uPyXY4cRxFw
# Posted on May 21st 2011 by celticturntable
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
Peter, as far as I can find, all your other clips have the same cheesy reverb and unwatchable video. It's not at all clear that you're actually producing the sound in the audios.
Look, kudos to you if that's really you playing. Why disguise it then?
Here are some good videos on bowing technique, including sautille: http://www.toddehle.com/id69.html
# Posted on May 21st 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
Please listen to the recording of Mark and try to duplicate his action. The triplets have to be played in sets of 2 notes per bow. Dont roll 3 on one bow or you will not get the desire effect.
# Posted on May 21st 2011 by celticturntable
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
Yeah, the clip of Mark is great, thanks for that.
I'd prefer to hear you without all the reverb.
And I just played Mark's triplet run back at 1/4 speed and can't hear a 2-note slur (if slur is what you mean by "roll") at all. Each triplet sounds single bowed, a not unusual way to play such runs.
I'd be really interested in understanding how Mark actually bows that run, just out of curiosity. I've played some with April Vertch and Calvin Vollrath and they both single-bowed such runs, or did slurs across two triplets at a time.
# Posted on May 21st 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
This is most definitely 2 per bow. just try it. It takes time. This is not a technique you'd want to do all the time, just a now and then effect. Yeah I know both April and Calvin, Mark and the whole crew.
# Posted on May 21st 2011 by celticturntable
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
I figured you'd know April and Calvin--great folks. I know them through teaching at Montana Fiddle Camp, where Calvin is a regular instructor year after year, and April makes it out whenever her schedule allows.
So are you saying slur two notes (paired here in parentheses) while (obviously) keeping the triplet rhythm: (fg)(fe)(fe)(de)(dc)(dc)(Bc)(BA)(BA)G2 ?
# Posted on May 21st 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
What I hear on the super-slow playback is definitely f/g/f e/f/e d/e/d and so on....
# Posted on May 21st 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
Im playing it now on the fiddle and yep (fg)(fe)(fe)(de)(dc)(dc)(Bc)(BA)(BA)G2. Its hard to destinguish between 3note grouping, but you get that laugh sound as Jean Carignan's described. My friend Gilles Losier has validated this as well. Once you build your speed, and combined with the 2note groupings, you'll jump the bow and get this exact effect.
# Posted on May 21st 2011 by celticturntable
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
Thanks for the triplet variant, Peter -- I'll work on that. It feels natural somehow.
# Posted on May 21st 2011 by gam
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
thats good Gam! you'll find that once you get this down, it incorporates itself well into jigs and most playing in general if only for a 1 triplet.
# Posted on May 21st 2011 by celticturntable
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
Yeah, worth a go. But I swear I can hear the bow changes on the slo-mo.
# Posted on May 21st 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
That's nice playing. And I do believe it's you, I've used CoolEdit to add reverb before so I know how easy it is to make a home recording sound that way.
I'm not a big fan of lifting or bouncing the bow in Irish music though, it just doesn't sound right to me.
# Posted on May 21st 2011 by Marklar
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
Well, it (Le Rossignol) sounds to me like two notes slurred and one bowed.
(ga)g(f#g)f#(ef#)e(de)d(cd)c(Bc)B(AB)A G2
Any further suggestions?
Slowed down considerably here:
http://www.box.net/shared/vjoh7xk737
# Posted on May 21st 2011 by Weejie
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
Yes that is a great variant as well. This emphasizes the chuckle very well.
# Posted on May 22nd 2011 by celticturntable
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
Enda's brother isn't half bad either on the fiddle
# Posted on May 22nd 2011 by Hup
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
Looking at 0:25-0:28, it does look like he might be splitting things 2-2, though at 2:08 he plays the same run of triplets and clearly splits them in 3s. Honestly, I'm not sure I can discern the difference without the video. The bow is bouncing so much that I'm hearing that much more clearly than I'm hearing the individual bowstrokes.
It's novel. I might give a whack at it tomorrow morning, and I'll be looking for it in other fiddlers in the future... Though my own personal jury is still out as far as how much it actually matters.
For what it's worth, here's another recording of the Banks, from Cape Breton fiddler Dwayne Cote, that I think is worthy of mention:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgp-3aK_E0Q&feature=related
There are a few Irish fiddlers who bounce the bow (eg: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TL7OYehr8z8 at at 5:22), but for the most part, you can take or leave the fiddley tricks. If they work for you, that's great, but the "Italian tricks" more often tend to interfere with that to which Irish musicians (IMHO) tend to actually listen--namely lift, ornamentation, and variation; playing the notes that work for the bow-tricks tends to distract from Irish music more than add to it. Perhaps that's part of the reason a fiddler like Carignan--while being incredibly well respected on his right--never really drew much interest from the Irish traddies. To some degree, IMHO, if you allow the bow-tricks to be such a primary feature of how you play a tune, you're missing one of the main points of Irish music (not speaking, of course, for Quebecois music, of which I know relatively little).
Plus, as a side note, I have to confess that my amazement at listening to folks like Carignan, or Dwayne Cote, or any of dozens of Canadian grandmaster fiddlers pull off tricks like that is tempered by the fact that I knew a couple dozen reasonably serious classical violin students in high school who were perfectly capable of executing the same techniques flawlessly. In the end, it's not the ricochet bowing that impresses me, but rather the fact that Carignan/Cote/O'Connor/etc can make it sound natural in the context of traditional music.
# Posted on May 22nd 2011 by Georgi
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
Heya Peter, I'm sorry if my earlier doubts stung you. I didn't mean to question you abilities as a fiddler--just heard a disconnect. My bad. (But that reverb doesn't do anything for me.
)
Good points from Georgi. Calvin Vollrath is another Canadian champ who can throw kitchen sink bowing into a tune and it sounds completely natural. Everything the guy does is musical.
# Posted on May 22nd 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
Curses. I've just spent half an hour trying to play the second half of The Independent using your two-notes-per-bow method, Peter, and now I need to lie down in a dark room.
# Posted on May 22nd 2011 by gam
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
The fiddler gasps as the fiddle laughs.......
# Posted on May 22nd 2011 by Weejie
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
"I swear I can hear the bow changes on the slo-mo"
Will makes a good point here. It is impossible to make a bow change completely inaudible, certainly at the forensic level. If, when listening to classical violin playing in particular, you think a bow change is inaudible then you can be sure there's some very skilled bowing technique going on, usually coupled with other things happening in the music that help to disguise it (a bit of the old smoke and mirrors).
Getting back to triplets being bowed in 2's, there can be, I think, a suggestion of a gentle 2-against-3 cross-rhythm, and this would be helped by the bow changes not being completely inaudible.
There's another way to bow a rapid descending passage of triplets, and that is to do it all on one bow using staccato for each note so that each note sounds distinctly. It is easier to do this on an up-bow starting at the tip. Here's a fine example of how it's done, both up-bow and down-bow (with a bit of ricochet thrown in): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mag2mc5Vva0.
# Posted on May 22nd 2011 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
"It is impossible to make a bow change completely inaudible,"
I would suggest that the shift of bow, and the sound it makes, is utilised in fiddle playing to a certain extent. It accents the beat - or offbeat.
Nevertheless, I'm sure I can hear the shift of the bow as I noted earlier. If the video was of better quality and the player filled more of the frame, slowing down the frame rate would probably be conclusive.
# Posted on May 22nd 2011 by Weejie
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
Just because somebody has to be the boy who points out exactly what the emperor's clothes are made of ...
I thought the first clip was dreadful. Not because of the reverb, but becasuse of the playing. It sounded like poor, classical fiddling to me. Certainly nothing to do with trad.
Now, I do follow the usual 'rule' of not attacking other members'playing. But celticturntable has put himself out there very forcefully, by inviting us to listen to how great he is and to copy what he obviously thinks is a really hard, and well-executed, technique. In those circumstances, I think it's worth pointing out that:
* the techinque isn't hard - routine for classical players
* this is a particularly poor example of it
* it's not much use for trad even if you can do it
* I really, really don't like the classical tone and the barely restrained vibrato in there
* it's obvious to me that it is actually celticturntable playing that clip
[Additional comment from an innocent bystander: "I don't like it. I think the flashiness gets in the way of the rhythm."]
# Posted on May 22nd 2011 by ethical blend
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
No Ben its nothing much to do with one particular traditional approach to music, such as your own, which I might add is very good, But its certainly a traditional approach to music! and Lovely playing IMO.
]
If the session.org only promotes one regional style and approach to the exclusion of others I feel thats a bit myopic.
Traditional music is played in many parts of the world and these many approaches are valid within their context. Just because its not your or my style does not diminish this validity.
Irish music is played in many styles and many different musics are played in various 'Irish' styles.
Its easy enough from the sidelines to criticise but at least he has the bottle to put his recordings up online.....
I personally incorporate influences from my youth in the Highlands and interest in Scottish music, I also incorporate influences from 20yrs living in Ireland , from 15 yrs on the road and travellers camps the length and breadth of these Islands, that makes my music my own .
One of the things that does not impress me at all is imitations of something , folk trying to be what they are not, clones and players with no nyah. superficially all there but hollow underneath. Id much rather promote music that comes from the individuals own soul, from their own tradition, all be it one they were not born into but found.
If Peter were to play in a West Clare style, would that suit you? but come on he lives in Canada and plays the Traditional style of his people. Its not yours but there is no monopoly on style! how good would music be if everyone cloned Bobby Casey [if only I could!
If the technique isnt hard, then you must have mastered it, otherwise how do you know? Give us all a laugh and demonstrate how it should be done!
Seriously though, this site does tend to be somewhat prone to condemning anything that is not in a particular style as though that were the only true way.
Just within Ireland there are so many styles, from Donegal to Kerry and travellers in between. Over the water to Northumbria, Scotland , Shetland, over to the states, the Blue grass settings . to Canada... Nova Scotia....
In fact I object to the attitude that only one style is acceptable, look at what happened to the Pipering of Cape Breton with the influence of a few Scots Piping judges.! nearly destroyed a regional, and highly authentic style in its place a generic British Army/Victorian approach.
Viva La difference.
# Posted on May 22nd 2011 by piobagusfidil
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
"If the technique isnt hard, then you must have mastered it, otherwise how do you know? Give us all a laugh and demonstrate how it should be done!"
), above, when he suggests something like it's not really appropriate in trad, and the fact that people like Carignan and others employ fancy techniques, and do it in a convincing way that *doesn't* detract is one of the things that's impressive about them. Which means, in my book, that if you're not the sort of genius who can do this and get away with it (and Peter really isn't one of those geniuses) then you'd be better off not doing it.
It's simple enough. But I wouldn't ever use it for any kind of trad. Mainly because it gets in the way of the music, IMO. Georgi's right though (as ever
Could I do the thing now? I mean, I did it back in the day, but I don't do too much solo classical stuff these days, so it doesn't really come up. I think it would take me a day or two to get it back into working order. I just can't see the point, since it isn't going to be any use to me for any of the music I play.
As for differences, I'm all for it - the more the better. But I'm not going to be persuaded to go for something that's just plain horrible.
# Posted on May 22nd 2011 by ethical blend
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
@ethical blend. You're right, im no genius. Just a fiddle player with no classical training. So yeah, it was tough for me to learn those without specific coaching. Eitherway, its fun to do now and then. Sorry I've disappointed you.
# Posted on May 22nd 2011 by celticturntable
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
Well Ben Id agree with you oamost all those points, but I actually prefer Peters setting of the tune to Dwayne Cotes setting because its a touch rawer [does that word exist?]and I think he pulls it off very well.
I agree it would be somewhat out o fplace in a session round here, unless it was a solo, in which case it would be appreciated for what it is, a different style of music, a different stream of tradition.
As far as whether Carignan could play the flash stuff easily, well I have some of his recordings and they are great but hes not always so good on you tube stuff. Age can have a funny way of equalising us all! live recordings are very different to studio stuff.
As regards something horrible, well thats a matter of taste, which in turn is a product of culture. Different cultures have different tastes and ways of living. Yes some people will consider their way to be the right/best way, maybe it is, maybe it isnt....Its all relative.
# Posted on May 22nd 2011 by piobagusfidil
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
Look, here's the thing, Peter: if you haven't had the classical training to do that, why bother? If you can't pull it off (and you can't), given that it's almost useless for trad, why not try to be a decent trad fiddle player instead? In a few years, you never know, with application, you might get somewhere.
Will, you're not getting me on this one. If it was any good, I'd say "fine, it's not my cup of tea" or whatever. But it's squeaky, scratchy, out of time and cloyingly flashy all at the same time. Are you really trying to tell me that I have to accept this sh*t because it's 'a different style'???
# Posted on May 22nd 2011 by ethical blend
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
Um, do bear in mind that Peter is a traditional Canadian fiddler, and the clip doesn't necessarily reflect his take on Irish traditional music.
[and I do realize you were addressing the other Will]
# Posted on May 22nd 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
"[and I do realize you were addressing the other Will]
"
Well, thank goodness for that, at least.
Meanwhile, fine, I'll bear in mind that Peter is a traditional Canadian fiddler. So ... are you telling me that traditional Canadian fiddling is out of time, our of tune, scratchy, squeaky, shrieky, with horrible tone, nasty semi-vibrato, unmusical and generally crap? Oh, and sounds like bad classical fiddling? 'Cos, if so, my bad. I'll try, in future, to respect the different tradition it represents.
# Posted on May 22nd 2011 by ethical blend
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
LOL, no, just saying that the pyrotechnics *are* a part of many Canadian fiddlers' approach to traditional music.
I saw Donnell Leahy in concert last fall. He did things with the bow I didn't know were possible. And he did it with heart and fire and sweetness. If "Leahy" is all you've seen of Donnell, don't judge him by that. I'm not a big fan of whole-stage bands. But Donnell's a brilliant fiddler and musician, and a genuinely lovely person to boot.
# Posted on May 22nd 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
For future reference, Mr. Blend, would "sounds like bad classical fiddling" be a desirable quality or no? I was also wondering if, in the future, you plan to wake up on a different side of the bed?
# Posted on May 22nd 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
LOL
# Posted on May 22nd 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
My bed has two wrong sides right now. Doesn't make what I'm saying wrong though.
I don't like pretentiousness, I don't like unnecessary flashiness and I don't like pretentiousness. Did I mentoin that I don't like pretentiousness?
# Posted on May 22nd 2011 by ethical blend
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
Fair play, you prefer sarcasm.
# Posted on May 22nd 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
Please stop beating around the bush, ethical blend, and tell us how you really feel. What do you think of pretentiousness?
# Posted on May 22nd 2011 by AlBrown
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
That's me. Always sitting on the fence. At least it's sturdy, strongly built and with evenly spaced fenceposts. Thank goodness it's not built on traditional Canadian principles, eh?
# Posted on May 22nd 2011 by ethical blend
~
Cheers, Ben Hall.
# Posted on May 22nd 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
Hmm..... so someone playing a tune from the Scottish tradition, said to be composed by an Italian, has "nothing to do with trad"?
Well, it ain't Irish for sure, but a certain Mr McGuire made a career out of playing in a 'semi classical' manner and that was one of his party pieces.
As for Peter's tone, well, Will at one point said: "I've heard that clip of the Banks before, just can't place whose it is. Alasdair Fraser?". Will may be a pain in the butt at times but he's a damn good fiddler and I'm sure he wouldn't mistake such a poor tone and intonation for the said Mr Fraser.
# Posted on May 22nd 2011 by Weejie
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
I agree about Will Harmon's playing. I like it. What I've heard of it. However, I have to disagree in this case that Peter's tone and intonation resembles Alasdair Fraser's. I would doubt that Will (H) really thinks that, if he listens again. And, if he does, I think, in this instance, he is mistaken.
Sean Maguire was a genius. I'm really not sure what you're trying to say here, Weejie. I have no problem with anyone who can play. And Sean Maguire could play, and how. I am, of course, very aware that not everyone liked what Sean Maguire did. But I would say that's fine if it isn't to their taste, but it's hard to argue that it wasn't good, IMO. That's not the situation we have here.
# Posted on May 22nd 2011 by ethical blend
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
Well, you handily wrote off Canadian fiddlers, not just Peter.
# Posted on May 22nd 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
I don't think I did, in fact. And I wouldn't have. I don't know all that much about it. I referred to a couple of other posts excusing Peter's playing on the grounds that it was traditional Canadian fiddling. It doesn't sound like the decent stuff that I've heard from that part of the world.
# Posted on May 22nd 2011 by ethical blend
...
Although, it's hard to imagine you think anyone could play worse than him.
# Posted on May 22nd 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
"I'm really not sure what you're trying to say here, Weejie"
I'm sure of what I said. I would suggest that nothing in my previous post was incorrect - and on that premise, it would cast doubt on the validity of your analysis.
As for Sean McGuire (formerly Maguire), for quote a while, I didn't really take much to his playing, much to the horror of others around me, who reacted very much like some people here did when someone criticised Liz Carroll. Sean had played in the north of Scotland and his style was very much admired. I can see now that it was because it wasn't "the pure drop" as far as I was concerned and I was particularly occupied with listening to the nitty-gritty. I did get to appreciate him more later on - even had a couple of albums (one from Woolworth's) but he was always much of a showman.
Anyway, not the point. The point is that McGuire used fancy staccato techniques that were certainly not part of the Irish tradition. If a Canadian wants to play a Scottish tune (with some possible Italian provenance) then let it be. I won't be applying the technique to my jigs and reels but I'm not going to condemn the man. As for his playing abilities, it is probably down to opinion.
# Posted on May 22nd 2011 by Weejie
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
It must have been the sarcasm. It has the tendency to obscure things.
# Posted on May 22nd 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
"for quote a while" = "quite a while". Yikes!
# Posted on May 22nd 2011 by Weejie
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
D'oh! I didn't mean to imply that Peter sounds like Mr. Fraser. But something about the clip sure reminds me of a studio version of the Banks I've heard. I just can't place it.
# Posted on May 22nd 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
But it's not, right? ~a studio version of someone other than Peter Corfield.
# Posted on May 22nd 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
I don't have a clue. My ears obviously can't cope with that amount of reverb....
# Posted on May 22nd 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
Fair play about the reverb. Hopefully Peter will remedy that on future video recordings.
# Posted on May 22nd 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
@ Will Harmon: I for one didn't think you did mean to imply that you thought it was, or sounded like, Alasdair Fraser. I tried to word my reply carefully so as to avoid that implication.
@ Ben Steen. I presume you're saying that I have been sarcastic? I'm sorry if you think so. I was trying, in fact, to state what I thought fairly straightforwardly and plainly. If you need me to say it in a more forthright fashion, I will.
@ Weejie: My point has nothing to do with whether or not to use techniques that aren't part of the run of the mill stuff used in trad. But ... and it really is an enormous and hugely important but ... IF you're going to use stuff that's flashy, outside of the tradition (ie unidiomatic) and very very noticeable, then you'd better make damn' sure you can carry it off. Otherwise, all that energy spent in getting somewhere close to (whilst not actually managing to achieve) these flashy techiniques would, surely, be better spent in actually working on being able to play better generally, wouldn't it?
When Maguire played staccato, did he go out of time? No. Did it seem out of context or unconvincing? No. What he did wasn't flashy - it was impressive. That difference isn't subtle. It's huge.
I guess what you're saying, Weejie, is that, if someone wants to use any techinque, then that's up to them and fair play. Well, fine. But when someone comes on here and says, in effect, "Hey, look at me! I can do this really flashy thing and you should all do it too," well, I reckon somebody needs to point out that, on the evidence presented, it ain't a worthwhlle use of time. Sean Maguire did all sorts of things. Fine. That was Sean Maguire. Other geniuses can also do whatever they want. For us mortals ... well, we'd better get the basics right first, IMO.
# Posted on May 22nd 2011 by ethical blend
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
Yes, I do think some of the comments were sarcastic. For instance, "That's me. Always sitting on the fence. At least it's sturdy, strongly built and with evenly spaced fenceposts. Thank f*ck it's not built on traditional Canadian principles, eh?"
# Posted on May 22nd 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
Right-o EB. Just wanted to clarify in light of other posters' comments. No biggee.
I'd chalk up Peter's OP to youthful enthusiasm, which I for one would not want to squelch. (My first post on this thread was out of sheer confusion--not being able to square what I was hearing with what little sense I could make out of the video.) Surely he meant well, just dove right in without testing the waters first. Oh well, live and learn....
# Posted on May 22nd 2011 by Will Harmon
... minus the one sentence, "At least it's sturdy, strongly built and with evenly spaced fenceposts."
# Posted on May 22nd 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
"@ Weejie: My point has nothing to do with whether or not to use techniques that aren't part of the run of the mill stuff used in trad."
Well, you raised five points in you original post and number three was: "it's not much use for trad even if you can do it".
So forgive me for thinking that you were pointing out that the technique was not part of traditional Irish playing.
"I guess what you're saying, Weejie, is that, if someone wants to use any techinque, then that's up to them and fair play"
It was indeed partly what I was saying.
" But when someone comes on here and says, in effect, "Hey, look at me! I can do this really flashy thing and you should all do it too," "
It could be construed that way. Not by me. It came over as someone who was showing off a technique and suggesting that it could be used in trad playing (possible implication of Irish trad playing). It did get up my nose a bit because I was listening to that stuff over three or four decades ago and it's not really anything new - but I'm sure it wasn't intended for old farts like me.
As for Will's "implication that it sounded like Fraser". Not the point I was making. The point being that if it was really that awful, Alasdair Fraser's name surely would not come to mind.
# Posted on May 22nd 2011 by Weejie
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
LOL, yer right, I didn't think it sounded that awful. Sure it's got some glitches, but the guy's just sitting in his bedroom tossing a tune at the camera.
Some boards actually foster an environment that welcomes sound clips from members and doesn't rip everyone to shreds. Imagine that. I doubt Mustardville will ever be that friendly--a shame--but one can dream....
May have to start a new thread....
# Posted on May 23rd 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
This is a great discussion. I do have to say that I didnt expect to have my playing judged to this extent. The entire purpose was to provide some ideas based off of my interpretations. I'll admit I'm not the best player, but I do have fun with it and there is always something new to learn. Tunes like this one from Kimmel were inspirational to me, Rodney Miller, Tyler Carson, Adrian Dolan and Jean Carignan. This like the Banks arent intended to be used in everyday playing but good to expand horizons sometimes, like a good Breton Tune. Here is another for those interested in a challenging tune. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x1qJL5AYVco
# Posted on May 23rd 2011 by celticturntable
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
Yes and thats typical of the board actually, we can all hear how well Peter plays but Ben slags him so badly that ye might not believe your ears! Certainly a lot more life than Will, sorry fellah but thats my opinion. I mean give it a rest your recordings sound like a kid playing, nice rolls etc but nyah?! zilch.
I mean its all a bit dodgy really isnt it, some guy puts up some playing thats really good and and to defend their patch the resident fiddlers slag off the newcomer, a few acolytes gather round and join in and the guy must start wondering what world ye live on.
Im glad actually because it shows what a complete and utter load of toss that can get posted on here.
# Posted on May 23rd 2011 by piobagusfidil
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
Heh, Peter, I think some of what you're running into is "youthful enthusiasm meets old fart curmudgeonliness."
Honestly, I can't bear to listen to that reverb for more than a few seconds. Reminds me of Andre Rieu....
# Posted on May 23rd 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
HAHAHAHAHAHA.
# Posted on May 23rd 2011 by celticturntable
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
"your recordings sound like a kid playing, nice rolls etc but nyah?! zilch. "
Um, you did catch that those clips were done for students learning the tunes, slowed down, played steadier than normal? If you think that's how I play in sessions, you're mistaken.
The point wasn't to showcase my prowess, only to demonstrate that it's entirely possible to play with solid intonation, timing, and tone without practicing scales and arpeggios. That was the challenge you put out there.
Jig, I'll take this as your response to my email. If that's the case, then you have far deeper problems than I imagined.
# Posted on May 23rd 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
Yes, Peter, this board can be pretty harsh. Good on you for taking it in stride and not getting wound up about it. Seriously, you've responded really well and that's much to your credit.
I have to say that I kind of agree with a lot of the points that EB has made, but it's been a bit brutal.
Aside from bow bouncing, I do hear something in your phrasing that sounds very classical and not so fiddly, although I admit I don't know a whole lot about Canadian fiddling. But there's a lyrical quality and a laxity in rhythm that tends to kill dance tunes.
I don't mean that as criticism so much as observation, and I think you have some really good chops on violin. But it leads to a sound that I don't really associate with fiddling. Technique is a means to an end, not an end in itself.
# Posted on May 23rd 2011 by Marklar
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
How about one more Reverb tune! This is more what I play like, not technical, just tunes.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-G_VSGnk_A
This is fairly representative of East Coast playing (Acadian/CapeBreton Mix)
# Posted on May 23rd 2011 by celticturntable
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
No, seriously, ease off on the reverb. You're being self defeating.
# Posted on May 23rd 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
I know eh, these were recorded a long time ago and I had the worst mic and webcam.
# Posted on May 23rd 2011 by celticturntable
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
LOL, well maybe it's really a part of the sound. Here it sounds like they have reverb added to the mix for the contests, too!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ul-8nfVB1e4
# Posted on May 23rd 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
Peter, you won't likely find a lot of interest on this board for that style of fiddling. Most of us here are more into this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHqFlS3gNMs
# Posted on May 23rd 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
Try being a bit more rigid in the rhythm and put some strong pulsing accents on the beat. Fiddling is dancing, not singing. Just my two cents.
# Posted on May 23rd 2011 by Marklar
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
Oh, you need to hear Pembroke! BTW, anybody looking to play 72hours non-stop with some class musicians like April Verch, Shane Cook, Mark Sullivan, Yvon Cuillerier, Calvin Vollrath, Schryer's, etc. Labour Day weekend in Canada...
# Posted on May 23rd 2011 by celticturntable
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
"...in Canada."
Well that narrows down the location anyway....
# Posted on May 23rd 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
Speak for yourself, Mr. Harmon. Just because someone is up against the odds is no reason to say the door has been closed & locked. That's what Ben Hall seems to be implying.
# Posted on May 23rd 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
@ Will Harmon, Pembroke Ontario.
# Posted on May 23rd 2011 by celticturntable
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
Ah, yep, that should be a right hoot.
http://bright-ideas-software.com/pembrokefiddle/Pembroke%20Fiddle%20.htm
# Posted on May 23rd 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
LOL Ben, you'd really have to redecorate this place to turn it into a Canadian contest fiddling site....
# Posted on May 23rd 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
Just saying there's more to traditional fiddle than most on here acknowledge.
# Posted on May 23rd 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
Ben, what Peter's playing isn't Irish traditional music. If you want to open it up to *all* forms of traditional music, we'll need an extra section for Tibetan throat singing, among other things.
# Posted on May 23rd 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
Will, I understand Peter's playing isn't Irish traditional music. More sarcasm?
# Posted on May 23rd 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
"Just saying there's more to traditional fiddle than most on here acknowledge."
There is, but a hornpipe is not a waltz.
# Posted on May 23rd 2011 by Marklar
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
Um, nope, no sarcasm intended.
"...there's more to traditional fiddle than most on here acknowledge."
I don't know what you're on about. The stuff Peter has spotlighted here isn't relevant to Irish traditional fiddling.
# Posted on May 23rd 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
Or only at the most tangentially...
# Posted on May 23rd 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
Yes, yes ... & a slip jig is not 12/8. Might as well chase my tail if this is the level of discussion.
# Posted on May 23rd 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
Actually, some of us were hoping you'd stop chasing your tail....
# Posted on May 23rd 2011 by Will Harmon
Fair play, Will.
I bow out.
Ben
# Posted on May 23rd 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
I just meant that playing a tune in one tradition in the manner of a tune played in another tradition is not really traditional in either tradition.
# Posted on May 23rd 2011 by Marklar
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
I use other techniques when I play old timey or contra, or even the little bit of bluegrass I know. But I wouldn't expect Irish fiddlers to be overly interested in shifting into 3rd position, or vibrato, or chromatic doublestop runs.
# Posted on May 23rd 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
Weird.
# Posted on May 23rd 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
I mean, it's not like we're all snobby intolerant purists here: http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/27604
# Posted on May 23rd 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
To my ears, it doesn't sound traditional at all, Irish or Old-timey. Maybe that stuff that's played on new year's eve with the galls in the ballgowns....
Not saying it's bad, just not what I would hear at a session or an old-time contest. I've heard Canadians (Masters) play at contests, and it's nothing like that.
It doesn't make me want to tap my foot.
# Posted on May 23rd 2011 by Wyogal
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
*gals*
# Posted on May 23rd 2011 by Wyogal
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
wyogal, to be fair, there is a contest style in Canada that favors this sort of stuff. Not my cuppa tea, but some folks really go for it.
# Posted on May 23rd 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
What do they call it?
# Posted on May 23rd 2011 by Wyogal
# Posted on May 23rd 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
It spans lots of genres. A pro like Calvin Vollrath will play anything from his own waltzes (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1jeXh4XetYM&feature=related) to Danny Boy, to Quebecois dance tunes, to Metis, to show tunes, to Rubber Dolly and Western Swing.
Puts a high premium on technical virtuosity.
# Posted on May 23rd 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
Granted, I've only heard Canadians at a couple of contests, Weiser and Peace Gardens, a couple of judges (Grand Masters), as well as contestants, and they were probably playing more within the realm of what was expected at old-time contests.
but, these examples here (Cturntables) still didn't make me want to tap my foot.
# Posted on May 23rd 2011 by Wyogal
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
Sorry to interrupt ... but I really don't appreciate being told there's no sarcasm twice in the same day. "another section for Tuvan throat singing."
Now I'm done.
# Posted on May 23rd 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
The last one you posted, Will, sounds nothing like what the OP posted. No technical show-off just for the sake of showing off. Also, the bow seemed to be pretty much on the string, except in a few places at the end of phrases. I could find the beat and it made me want to move to the music.
The "acrobatic" stuff, not so much. at all.
(how about a crossed-eyed smiley?)
# Posted on May 23rd 2011 by Wyogal
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
Well Calvin's a grand national champ, it's bound to sound great. I've hung out with him for a week and he can launch all sorts of acrobatics. But he's also one of the most tasteful players I know.
I'm not trying to justify Peter's playing here--just saying that he's harking to a different style, one that's not uncommon in Canada.
Put it this way: here's one of Canda's greatest fiddlers: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7LPZtVxdJ2I&playnext=1&list=PL1B9546CBCBEE0330
# Posted on May 23rd 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
I hear ya, it's just not a style I heard played by grand champs from there.
Still not sure what "style" Peter's would be. I've heard Metis, western swing (hung out with Paul, Dick, and Lisa), etc....
But to each their own. I have no desire to replicate it.
# Posted on May 23rd 2011 by Wyogal
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
Talking of acrobatics, any idea what the first tune is here? Got the ABCs?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKO1SVcj4xg&feature=related
# Posted on May 23rd 2011 by Weejie
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
Oh my!
# Posted on May 23rd 2011 by celticturntable
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
Ha, reminds me of when I was in college and was blown away by Tibetian throat singing when the Dalai Lama came to my school. Amazing stuff.
The second part of that video with the instruments really got my foot tapping, GREAT stuff there.
Neither here nor there and nothing to do with Irish trad, but that's great music.
# Posted on May 23rd 2011 by Marklar
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
I am confused here. The OP came in touting a fiddle technique, and it was quite rightly pointed out that his technique didn't really fit the Irish style. I don't see anything wrong with that.
I loved the clip of Mark Sullivan, because I love Quebequois fiddling, but don't see what it has to do with Irish music.
Nothing wrong with talking about a different style on the Mustard Board, I suppose, as long as when you do it you are not confusing apples and oranges.
# Posted on May 23rd 2011 by AlBrown
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
I met this guy a few years ago:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSI_eI8YQg8
Now that, for me, is it. Unpretentious, flashy yes, but always with an authentic, convincing voice, a warm heart in his playing and in his dealings with people. One of the best.
# Posted on May 23rd 2011 by ethical blend
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
Eh-rm, for what it's worth, since this thread seems to have evolved into a discussion of Canadian fiddling styles [ - to be honest, I actually have no idea what this thread is really on about - ]...can't help but throw in a few other great canucks:
Denis Lanctot: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fLlMJ_sRtM8&feature=related
Matt Pepin [who I understand was taught by Denis]: http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=matt+pepin&aq=f
Andre Brunet [on the far left...this man looks like the funnest person to play music with]: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQA6WLIo-e0&feature=related
I suppose they all also have a bit of the acrobatic bowing going on. [I repeat: not really sure what this discussion is about...just wanted to put in my 2 cents]
# Posted on May 23rd 2011 by canadian fiddler
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
Brunet is one of the best. I love Quebequois music, and wish there was more of it around here.
# Posted on May 24th 2011 by AlBrown
Re: Fiddle Acrobatics (If you are looking for a challenge)
Brunet is a hoot and a half to play with. He is technically brilliant, as well as an incredible improvisational mind. Charming as all get out and one of the funniest people you will meet in several languages.
I learned the second technique listed at the top of this thread (hey, pertinent!) of triplets across 2 bows. The way he does it is to do the bow change in the middle of the second note. Well not precisely in the middle, as he is slightly swinging the duple. But you get a very strong (yet high speed) sense of 2 against 3 with the duple bowing (as well as his feet/podorhythmie) against the triplets. Always done several at a time.
# Posted on May 26th 2011 by HipCzeck