My roommate plays a drum set just as a release at home, and jams with people that come over once in a while. He's really into R&B and plays a boom ba doom chuck ba doom ba doom chuck beat very well. I've played reels to this rhythm and it really sounds alive. With all the musicians that I've ever played with that were not ITM players, most of them cannot play along with me on reels, but this guy can, he starts to follow my phrasing as it goes along with different accents that anticipate my long notes . I'm thinking about recording an album with him on drums and me solo on fiddle banjo and concertina ( he follows all just as well)
I have found that folks from a rock background have a lot easier time of playing a good reel rhythm than a good jig rhythm. But like you say, lots of them just don't feel the ITM rhythms.
If you haven't already, give a listen to Luke Plumb's cd, A Splendid Notion, to see how a (really, really good) solo player (on mandolin in Luke's case) sounds with drums and nothing else.
Yeah this "old time" guitar player just couldn't feel reels the other night. but I was working on Paddy Ryan's Dream and decided to just see how it worked really slowly with him sussing out the chords and it sounded nice but when it came to full speed (which I was ready to play after going slow a few times) he was just baffled.
But then I handed him the fiddle after I played a few polkas and he played about 7 polkas for us, which is astounding to me. I don't really play many polkas but the ones he played are probably unknown to the Irish tradition. I'm always disappointed at not being able to play some reels though because they're my favorite and the rhythm might be something that a different sort of player is into. I think what has taken over in the bluegrass and old time scene in the states is a sort of 4/4 timing that is truly more of a 2/4 or a polka timing.
I'm having a bit of a hard time envisioning how a "boom ba doom chuck ba doom ba doom chuck" rhythm could sound good as a reel. But that may just be my own interpretation of that phonetically written rhythm. It will be interesting to hear what you come up with, if you do record with him, Earl.
I guess it works because it keeps a 4/4 time signature without being bogged down by overplaying. I play with a spoon player who is sometimes getting it (on triple time) and sometimes not (on duple time). I literally plays 8 clicks per measure on Jimmy's Return (reel) and i keep telling him to add some rests and to emphasize less evenly but he doesn't get it. The Boom boom chuck rhythm has these built in pauses, and as soon as I start playing the pauses of his drum beat will match my quarter notes and he will ornament where I ornament.
I think the problem lies in not really listening to the melody. An accompanist should emphasize what is being done by the lead and enhance it. Too many times have I listened to Jigs being played with a Bluegrass "Chuck" added in on 4/4 time. Yes, by the end of the measure everything is in time, but do the math:
6/8 (2 beats, 1 potential sub-beat per 1/8th), not (2beats, 4 potential sub-beats, therefore 1 every 1.5 1/8th ). If you were to slow the melody down, you'd hear a sub-beat between notes. It really kills the rhythm. And worse, Out there Chords!!!
Earl - I'd be interested to hear some of what you do with this drummer - or rather, what the drummer does with you. The problem I have had with non-trad drummers is that most I have encountered come from a rock background, and have it deeply embedded in their psyche that it is their responsibility to 'lay down' the rhythm, not listen and be sympathetic to the inherent rhythm in the tune. Much more than the type of drum(s) - whether they play bodhrán, drumkit, congas, darbuka, tambourine or even, dare I say it, djembe - it is the ability to listen, and not to dictate, that is key to accompanying trad.
reel rhythm
reel rhythm
My roommate plays a drum set just as a release at home, and jams with people that come over once in a while. He's really into R&B and plays a boom ba doom chuck ba doom ba doom chuck beat very well. I've played reels to this rhythm and it really sounds alive. With all the musicians that I've ever played with that were not ITM players, most of them cannot play along with me on reels, but this guy can, he starts to follow my phrasing as it goes along with different accents that anticipate my long notes . I'm thinking about recording an album with him on drums and me solo on fiddle banjo and concertina ( he follows all just as well)
# Posted on May 19th 2011 by Earl Cameron
Re: reel rhythm
I have found that folks from a rock background have a lot easier time of playing a good reel rhythm than a good jig rhythm. But like you say, lots of them just don't feel the ITM rhythms.
# Posted on May 19th 2011 by AlBrown
Re: reel rhythm
If you haven't already, give a listen to Luke Plumb's cd, A Splendid Notion, to see how a (really, really good) solo player (on mandolin in Luke's case) sounds with drums and nothing else.
# Posted on May 19th 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: reel rhythm
Michael McGoldrick uses drums and tabla in his arrangements to great effect, IMO.
# Posted on May 19th 2011 by JPFlute
Re: reel rhythm
Yeah this "old time" guitar player just couldn't feel reels the other night. but I was working on Paddy Ryan's Dream and decided to just see how it worked really slowly with him sussing out the chords and it sounded nice but when it came to full speed (which I was ready to play after going slow a few times) he was just baffled.
But then I handed him the fiddle after I played a few polkas and he played about 7 polkas for us, which is astounding to me. I don't really play many polkas but the ones he played are probably unknown to the Irish tradition. I'm always disappointed at not being able to play some reels though because they're my favorite and the rhythm might be something that a different sort of player is into. I think what has taken over in the bluegrass and old time scene in the states is a sort of 4/4 timing that is truly more of a 2/4 or a polka timing.
# Posted on May 19th 2011 by Earl Cameron
Re: reel rhythm
Maybe he should listen to some people dancing. He might get the rhythm that way, if he can internalise what their feet are doing.
# Posted on May 19th 2011 by gam
Re: reel rhythm
Earl Cameron..
Have a go man !
jim,,,
# Posted on May 19th 2011 by FIDDLE4
Re: reel rhythm
I'm having a bit of a hard time envisioning how a "boom ba doom chuck ba doom ba doom chuck" rhythm could sound good as a reel. But that may just be my own interpretation of that phonetically written rhythm. It will be interesting to hear what you come up with, if you do record with him, Earl.
# Posted on May 19th 2011 by Reverend
Re: reel rhythm
I don't really know how it works because it defies all preconceptions of what should work.
# Posted on May 19th 2011 by Earl Cameron
Re: reel rhythm
Rock and Roll beat #2 works well for anything that ails a piece of music......
# Posted on May 19th 2011 by zippydw
Re: reel rhythm
I guess it works because it keeps a 4/4 time signature without being bogged down by overplaying. I play with a spoon player who is sometimes getting it (on triple time) and sometimes not (on duple time). I literally plays 8 clicks per measure on Jimmy's Return (reel) and i keep telling him to add some rests and to emphasize less evenly but he doesn't get it. The Boom boom chuck rhythm has these built in pauses, and as soon as I start playing the pauses of his drum beat will match my quarter notes and he will ornament where I ornament.
# Posted on May 19th 2011 by Earl Cameron
Re: reel rhythm
[He] literally plays, not I
# Posted on May 19th 2011 by Earl Cameron
Re: reel rhythm
"boom ba doom chuck ba doom ba doom chuck"
Translation, please?
# Posted on May 19th 2011 by Whiddler
Re: reel rhythm
Maybe something like
quarter, quarter, dotted quarter, eighth| dotted eighth, sixteenth, quarter, half |
# Posted on May 19th 2011 by Earl Cameron
Re: reel rhythm
I think the problem lies in not really listening to the melody. An accompanist should emphasize what is being done by the lead and enhance it. Too many times have I listened to Jigs being played with a Bluegrass "Chuck" added in on 4/4 time. Yes, by the end of the measure everything is in time, but do the math:
6/8 (2 beats, 1 potential sub-beat per 1/8th), not (2beats, 4 potential sub-beats, therefore 1 every 1.5 1/8th ). If you were to slow the melody down, you'd hear a sub-beat between notes. It really kills the rhythm. And worse, Out there Chords!!!
Peter Corfield
http://www.CelticTurnTable.com
# Posted on May 19th 2011 by celticturntable
Re: reel rhythm
Earl - I'd be interested to hear some of what you do with this drummer - or rather, what the drummer does with you. The problem I have had with non-trad drummers is that most I have encountered come from a rock background, and have it deeply embedded in their psyche that it is their responsibility to 'lay down' the rhythm, not listen and be sympathetic to the inherent rhythm in the tune. Much more than the type of drum(s) - whether they play bodhrán, drumkit, congas, darbuka, tambourine or even, dare I say it, djembe - it is the ability to listen, and not to dictate, that is key to accompanying trad.
# Posted on May 21st 2011 by CreadurMawnOrganig