I've wondered for some time about Coleman's version of this tune. Is it misidentified on his 78; as it's definitely not the same tune as on the TheSession?
Welcome to the strange world of ITM nomenclature !
Because this is (/was ) an oral tradition, different tunes often have the same names, and, as here, the same names are used for different tunes.
It all adds to the fun.
Lets not get into why different people play the same tunes in ( widely ) different ways.
He probably means slip jig vs reel. The track listing for Fox Hunter's in the Recordings section links to the Fox Hunter's Reel in the Tunes section. So "timing" means "rhythm" and "meter".
This is a quirk of the database here at TheSession. When there are several tunes here by the same name, recordings don't necessarily link to the correct one. (An unconfirmed guess would be that they link to the earliest submitted tune bearing that name.)
The Hop Jig vs 9/8 Slip Jig probably explains it best. There is no doubt they are connected. Just wondered if the Hop Jig has another name associated to it.
The link depends on how it's listed on the track and the name under which the tune was submitted.
The Foxhunter links to the reel.
The Foxhunter's links to the slip jig.
Could someone tell what recording has the hop jig setting? I play the jig and unrelated reel but I've not run across a Fox Hunter's hop jig.
I wouldn't call tune names being database keys a "quirk". That is far too kind. In truth it belongs on the DailyWTF CodeSOD section, as it's a total charlie foxtrot.
@ElaineT, Michael Coleman's version is like this as well as the one including in this discussion. I will place the abc under the slip jig version soon.
And while we are at it -- suggested bowing of other slip jigs.
I had Fox Hunter's introduced two weeks ago and Butterfly this week... not sure what I have come up with for bowing is ideal (especially on Butterfly). Would be interested to hear other ideas.
More or less how it goes (adapted from John Chambers' abc Collection):
X:1
T:Foxhunter's
S:Michael Coleman
R:Hop Jig
L:1/8
M:9/8
K:D
B3 {c}B2 A F2 A | B2 E E2 F G2 A | B3 B2 A F2 A | d2 D D2 F E2 D
B2 E E2 F G2 A | B2 E E2 F G2 A | B3{c} B2 A F2 A | d2 D D2 F E2 D|:
f3 ~f3 g2 e | f3 ~f3 e2 d | d2 f ~f3 g2 e | afd d2 f e2 d :|]
@Jerry O'Donnell: "It is played both as a slip jig and a hop jig."
@Silver Spear: "It can be played as a slip jig and as a hop jig."
Would either or both of you care to elaborate on the differences between playing it as a slip jig and a hop jig? There's a lot of contradictory information (read: utter confusion) in the archives on the definition of a hop jig.
Actually, I was planning on submitting the tune as a 4/4 in Eminor as heard on Coleman's 78 version. The second tune in his recording is in fact the 4/4 version of Comb your hair and Curl it.
(Columbia 33058-F).
"The second tune in his recording is in fact the 4/4 version of Comb your hair and Curl it.
(Columbia 33058-F)."
Hmm. You link to a 9/8 version played by Carignan and say it is "Coleman's" (which it basically is) and then suggest there is a 4/4 version of the tune by Coleman, along with 'Comb Your Hair and Curl it' in 4/4, citing a record number that appears to be a 78 by Patrick Gaffney. I'm confused!
The only version of The Foxhunter's that I know of that was recorded by Coleman with Comb Your Hair and Curl it is most definitely in 9/8.
The other side is unknown with Tom Morrison. Mine is a bit scratched up. After further inspection I get 12/8, but definitely not 9/8. Agree to Disagree. But ur right, not 4/4 my mistake..
Interesting....Are you sure it's not Columbia 33068-F? If so, the recording with Tom Morrison is 'The Humours of Ballyconnell/Captain Rock. This recording was apparently made in 1925, and, right enough, the known recording of Foxhunter's/Comb Your Hair was made in the same year.
Anyway, the known recording of the two jigs can be heard here:
Yes, I think you need to transcribe a few bars of what you're hearing and post it before you add it to the Tunes section. If you've got something in 4/4 in E minor, it's not that Coleman Foxhunter's recording.
As far as "hop jigs", as a dancer to me they mean the single jigs children dance to tunes like Off She Goes or Pop Goes the Weasel. I have no clue how you could hear a single jig rhythm in any recording of Foxhunters, thus my confusion.
"That's not what non-dancing people mean by "hop jig," Elaine."
Debatable indeed! O'Neill didn't seem to distinguish slip and hop. I often used to slip when I hopped on the playground.
I've heard many a slop jig too. Some hip ones even.
elaine, you could find great hop jig version on harry bradley's and paul o'shaughnnessy's album -...born for sport.
they play same set as coleman- so paired foxhunt hop jig with
Comb your hair and Curl it.
marin
I take it that the last three notes are meant to be a triplet?
All I can say is that you must have a gem there.
It doesn't make much sense in 12/8, especially the (3gfe triplet - it's in an odd place.
But it must be a unique recording. Get it remastered and sell it on your website!
Then again, maybe not.
I think I'll tweak your version into a polska. It is interesting.
X:1
T: Polska efter Mikael Kolmann
R:Polska
M:3/4
L:1/8
K:Em
B2EF GA|B2EF GA|B2EF GA|dB AF (3DEF:|
|:f2ef ge|f4ed|f2 (3gfe fb|af ed (3Acd:|
Key is entered after your suggestion. More of a D tune in my reckoning.
That fast 3/4 feel with a bit of a swing that you call a polska is what I and many other musicians call a "hop jig" and have done so since at least Francis O'Neill's day. I don't know anything about competition step dancing and studiously avoid it. It has nothing to do with real Irish music or even real Irish dancing these days.
thank @Weejie. Please let me know if I am out to lunch but that is what I hear on the Carignan Version above on my initial posting and that of Michael Colemans original recording.
"That fast 3/4 feel with a bit of a swing that you call a polska is what I and many other musicians call a "hop jig" "
Polskas can often be interchanged with 9/8 jigs. The 3/4 timing is just a nominal signature, like the 9/8. That was why I intentionally converted it. However, the 12/8 example above is nothing like the Coleman jig or the Carignan example, IMO.
Absolutely it doesn't work. A 12/8 tune is a SLIDE or a SINGLE JIG, full stop. A 9/8 tune can be played as a SLIP or HOP jig, full stop. A 12/8 tune is not a hop jig, although dancers insist on dancing the hop jig dance to 12/8 tunes. Go figure.
O.K. So, the timing question is about time signature. I'd use 9/8 not 12/8. But transcriptions aren't cast in stone. Do whatever you see fit.
Personally I consider the Jean Carignan recording to be one version (or variation) of "Foxhunter's Slip Jig". So, if I was transcribing the recording I'd add it to the comments of the tune already submitted. Fair play to use hop jig in naming that transcription. I tend to call them all slip jigs.
"If you're calling 3/4 the difference, which some have tried to make a claim for, well, taking the 'skip' or 'hop' out of the music and turning it to the interesting alternative form of 3/4 ~ nah! That isn't about the dance or the dancer, that is a bit of fun for the musician, something we do for a bit of fun. I'll stick to the historic and 'meaningful' use of the term 'hop', which is what a slip jig has in it when given the swing of a 'skip', a 'hop', that good old slow quick of N2 N that lifts the feet, gives dance that bit of rhythmic definition and electricity. But, hey, I wouldn't take away from the fun of trying it on in a 3/4 kind of way. I've enjoyed that myself. But there's nothing 'hop' about it... Some folks have even taken to trying to distinguish it with the added term 'polka'..."
"A 9/8 tune can be played as a slip or hop jig" ~ Seosamh Ui Sinan
Yes!
"It's all in the interpretation, or, how you play them. With more slow quick or ~ | N2 N N2 N N2 N | ~ rather than the other alternative of ~ | NNN NNN NNN | ~ the more it will bounce rhythmically..."
~
ceolachan
I think the hop jig interpretation of 9/8 tunes was used to accompany a type of dance that no longer exists thanks to the Famine and emigration. Another of the great blessings bestowed on us by 19th century laissez faire capitalism.
Yes, I get what ceolachan is saying. The tune I (and Seosamh) would call a "hop jig" is far less hoppy than the one I'd call a "slip jig." See the youtube videos I posted above.
give a listen to this at 4:27 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fte3qE6vecc
that's more or less what I would consider a "hop jig" interpretation of the Foxhunter's, although David sticks in quite some pippety little runs up and down the chanter. Ennis gave both this tune and The Rocky Road this treatment as well.
I saw this live at Celtic Connections in 2010. It's a beautifully done show.
I learned the hop jig version of the Foxhunter's from David's playing (maybe not as many pippeties, as I don't have anything close to David's ability) and also picked up a few thoughts on it from the Harry Bradley/Paul O'Shaughnessy version. To really confuse people at a session, I'll start a set with the hop jig and then after a few rounds of it, switch to the slip jig. Maybe throw in the reel for good measure.
TSS- that's what i'm saying- the terminology seems to be pretty loose. i would call the clip in the OP a hop jig. dancers have a completely different meaning for hop jig. i've also heard the term skip jig ..
a rose by any other name etc....
cheers
Yeah, I'm aware it means something else to competition dancers but they inhabit a different planet. Most musicians I deal with understand that hop jig means something like the tune in both Seosamh's and the OP's clip. Insofar as communicating something about the tune you're about to play goes, hop jig has a specific meaning in musician circles.
Silver Spear
oh yeah, we're on the same page- mine just doesn't reload very fast. hehheh. great version of that tune though. can't get my musicianer pals to learn it though -they all want to play it the hop jig version
cheers
I keep learning that tune and then forgetting it. I tried starting it at a session at the weekend and after utterly trainwrecking the first few bars, decided it wasn't going to go and bailed out into Redican's Mother (another slip jig )
Competition dancers bloody well don't inhabit a different planet. This is DANCE music! What are you going to do when an 8-year old kid at a ceili asks for a "hop jig"? Play a slip jig and argue semantics with the kid when she can't do her step to your music?
Timing of Fox Hunter's Slip Jig
Timing of Fox Hunter's Slip Jig
I've wondered for some time about Coleman's version of this tune. Is it misidentified on his 78; as it's definitely not the same tune as on the TheSession?
Here is Jean Carignan playing Coleman's
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Syc90M6GnME
# Posted on May 9th 2011 by celticturntable
Re: Timing of Fox Hunter's Slip Jig
Welcome to the strange world of ITM nomenclature !
Because this is (/was ) an oral tradition, different tunes often have the same names, and, as here, the same names are used for different tunes.
It all adds to the fun.
Lets not get into why different people play the same tunes in ( widely ) different ways.
# Posted on May 9th 2011 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Timing of Fox Hunter's Slip Jig
Interesting you should question Coleman and not this place
# Posted on May 9th 2011 by ...
Re: Timing of Fox Hunter's Slip Jig
It is played both as a slip jig and a hop jig.
# Posted on May 9th 2011 by Jerry O'Donnell
Re: Timing of Fox Hunter's Slip Jig
It can be played as a slip jig and as a hop jig.
# Posted on May 9th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Timing of Fox Hunter's Slip Jig
whoa, snap cross post.
# Posted on May 9th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Timing of Fox Hunter's Slip Jig
It all depends on the agility of the fox.
# Posted on May 9th 2011 by Weejie
Re: Timing of Fox Hunter's Slipped Wig
Not sure really what you mean by 'timing'. Do you mean its tempo, itsmeter or when in the evening you play it?
# Posted on May 9th 2011 by yhaalhouse
Re: Timing of Fox Hunter's Slip Jig
He probably means slip jig vs reel. The track listing for Fox Hunter's in the Recordings section links to the Fox Hunter's Reel in the Tunes section. So "timing" means "rhythm" and "meter".
This is a quirk of the database here at TheSession. When there are several tunes here by the same name, recordings don't necessarily link to the correct one. (An unconfirmed guess would be that they link to the earliest submitted tune bearing that name.)
# Posted on May 9th 2011 by GaryAMartin
Re: Timing of Fox Hunter's Slip Jig
The Hop Jig vs 9/8 Slip Jig probably explains it best. There is no doubt they are connected. Just wondered if the Hop Jig has another name associated to it.
# Posted on May 9th 2011 by celticturntable
Re: Timing of Fox Hunter's Slip Jig
The link depends on how it's listed on the track and the name under which the tune was submitted.
The Foxhunter links to the reel.
The Foxhunter's links to the slip jig.
# Posted on May 9th 2011 by Ben Steen
http://www.irishtune.info/tune/668/
# Posted on May 9th 2011 by Ben Steen
The Foxhunter - schizophrenic?
July 4th 2002 by JohnF
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/701#comment10101
# Posted on May 9th 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: Timing of Fox Hunter's Slip Jig
" Is it misidentified on his 78; as it's definitely not the same tune as on the TheSession?"
Herein lies the problem. It definitely is the same tune - just a variation.
# Posted on May 9th 2011 by Weejie
Re: Timing of Fox Hunter's Slip Jig
I havent come across the hop jig version on abc before, so what just wondering.... Thanks for the info folks.
# Posted on May 9th 2011 by celticturntable
Re: Timing of Fox Hunter's Slip Jig
You could transcribe that recording.
# Posted on May 9th 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: Timing of Fox Hunter's Slip Jig
Could someone tell what recording has the hop jig setting? I play the jig and unrelated reel but I've not run across a Fox Hunter's hop jig.
I wouldn't call tune names being database keys a "quirk". That is far too kind. In truth it belongs on the DailyWTF CodeSOD section, as it's a total charlie foxtrot.
# Posted on May 9th 2011 by ElaineT
Re: Timing of Fox Hunter's Slip Jig
Sierra Delta Oscar to you too.
# Posted on May 9th 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: Timing of Fox Hunter's Slip Jig
@ElaineT, Michael Coleman's version is like this as well as the one including in this discussion. I will place the abc under the slip jig version soon.
# Posted on May 9th 2011 by celticturntable
Re: Timing of Fox Hunter's Slip Jig
As well as comb your hair and curl it. As they are both played as Hop Jig's
# Posted on May 9th 2011 by celticturntable
Re: Timing of Fox Hunter's Slip Jig
Do you have recording of Coleman's "Comb Your Hair & Curl It?"
# Posted on May 9th 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: Timing of Fox Hunter's Slip Jig
So what about "bowing" of Fox Hunter's Slip Jig?
And while we are at it -- suggested bowing of other slip jigs.
I had Fox Hunter's introduced two weeks ago and Butterfly this week... not sure what I have come up with for bowing is ideal (especially on Butterfly). Would be interested to hear other ideas.
# Posted on May 10th 2011 by frauschmittle
Re: Timing of Fox Hunter's Slip Jig
If you ever think you've come up with the "ideal" bowing for a phrase, don't ever do it again.
# Posted on May 10th 2011 by ...
Re: Timing of Fox Hunter's Slip Jig
Point taken, Llig... Let's put that another way... not sure what I have come up with doesn't sound like crap.... (double negative intended)
# Posted on May 10th 2011 by frauschmittle
Re: Timing of Fox Hunter's Slip Jig
More or less how it goes (adapted from John Chambers' abc Collection):
X:1
T:Foxhunter's
S:Michael Coleman
R:Hop Jig
L:1/8
M:9/8
K:D
B3 {c}B2 A F2 A | B2 E E2 F G2 A | B3 B2 A F2 A | d2 D D2 F E2 D
B2 E E2 F G2 A | B2 E E2 F G2 A | B3{c} B2 A F2 A | d2 D D2 F E2 D|:
f3 ~f3 g2 e | f3 ~f3 e2 d | d2 f ~f3 g2 e | afd d2 f e2 d :|]
# Posted on May 10th 2011 by Weejie
Re: Timing of Fox Hunter's Slip Jig
@Jerry O'Donnell: "It is played both as a slip jig and a hop jig."
@Silver Spear: "It can be played as a slip jig and as a hop jig."
Would either or both of you care to elaborate on the differences between playing it as a slip jig and a hop jig? There's a lot of contradictory information (read: utter confusion) in the archives on the definition of a hop jig.
# Posted on May 10th 2011 by boxist
Re: Timing of Fox Hunter's Slip Jig
Actually, I was planning on submitting the tune as a 4/4 in Eminor as heard on Coleman's 78 version. The second tune in his recording is in fact the 4/4 version of Comb your hair and Curl it.
(Columbia 33058-F).
# Posted on May 10th 2011 by celticturntable
Re: Timing of Fox Hunter's Slip Jig
"The second tune in his recording is in fact the 4/4 version of Comb your hair and Curl it.
(Columbia 33058-F)."
Hmm. You link to a 9/8 version played by Carignan and say it is "Coleman's" (which it basically is) and then suggest there is a 4/4 version of the tune by Coleman, along with 'Comb Your Hair and Curl it' in 4/4, citing a record number that appears to be a 78 by Patrick Gaffney. I'm confused!
The only version of The Foxhunter's that I know of that was recorded by Coleman with Comb Your Hair and Curl it is most definitely in 9/8.
# Posted on May 10th 2011 by Weejie
Re: Timing of Fox Hunter's Slip Jig
The other side is unknown with Tom Morrison. Mine is a bit scratched up. After further inspection I get 12/8, but definitely not 9/8. Agree to Disagree. But ur right, not 4/4 my mistake..
# Posted on May 10th 2011 by celticturntable
Re: Timing of Fox Hunter's Slip Jig
"After further inspection I get 12/8, but definitely not 9/8."
How about posting a few bars of ABC to show us how it looks in 12/8?
# Posted on May 10th 2011 by boxist
Re: Timing of Fox Hunter's Slip Jig
"The other side is unknown with Tom Morrison."
Interesting....Are you sure it's not Columbia 33068-F? If so, the recording with Tom Morrison is 'The Humours of Ballyconnell/Captain Rock. This recording was apparently made in 1925, and, right enough, the known recording of Foxhunter's/Comb Your Hair was made in the same year.
Anyway, the known recording of the two jigs can be heard here:
http://www.box.net/shared/uy11ivsj7v
# Posted on May 10th 2011 by Weejie
Re: Timing of Fox Hunter's Slip Jig
Yes, I think you need to transcribe a few bars of what you're hearing and post it before you add it to the Tunes section. If you've got something in 4/4 in E minor, it's not that Coleman Foxhunter's recording.
As far as "hop jigs", as a dancer to me they mean the single jigs children dance to tunes like Off She Goes or Pop Goes the Weasel. I have no clue how you could hear a single jig rhythm in any recording of Foxhunters, thus my confusion.
Hop jigs. (The tune is a slide but the musician has changed the emphasis to make it a single jig.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ructrzxB3ew
# Posted on May 10th 2011 by ElaineT
Re: Timing of Fox Hunter's Slip Jig
"As far as "hop jigs", as a dancer to me they mean the single jigs children dance to tunes like Off She Goes or Pop Goes the Weasel."
It is a debatable point. I only used the term for the abc above to fit in with the discussion. It is clearly a slip jig.
# Posted on May 10th 2011 by Weejie
Re: Timing of Fox Hunter's Slip Jig
That's not what non-dancing people mean by "hop jig," Elaine. Those were single jigs.
Better to show than describe:
Hop jig: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dn12z4YiBKE
or http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7XzqjndH-Q&feature=related (and a YOUNG Kevin Burke!)
Slip jig: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNhkRQB6rwg (after they play the reel)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CCWPnCfE1bQ
# Posted on May 10th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Timing of Fox Hunter's Slip Jig
"That's not what non-dancing people mean by "hop jig," Elaine."
Debatable indeed! O'Neill didn't seem to distinguish slip and hop. I often used to slip when I hopped on the playground.
I've heard many a slop jig too. Some hip ones even.
# Posted on May 10th 2011 by Weejie
Re: Timing of Fox Hunter's Slip Jig
Hop jig:-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvCMHJkqJzA
Slip jig:-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_1E02q-niWg
# Posted on May 10th 2011 by Jerry O'Donnell
Re: Timing of Fox Hunter's Slip Jig
elaine, you could find great hop jig version on harry bradley's and paul o'shaughnnessy's album -...born for sport.
they play same set as coleman- so paired foxhunt hop jig with
Comb your hair and Curl it.
marin
# Posted on May 10th 2011 by maracirac
Re: Timing of Fox Hunter's Slip Jig
And orf we jolly well go....
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/9910
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/2748/comments#comment53982
Best comment in these two threads is that from Slainte:
"The difference between a slip jig and a hop jig is very controversial. I'd rather shut up and play...."
Back to the subject in hand - the tune is a 9/8 (or could be written as a polska for the deviant).
# Posted on May 10th 2011 by Weejie
Re: Timing of Fox Hunter's Slip Jig
the 12/8 version:
B2 EFGA B2 EFGA | B2 EFGA dBAF (3DEF |
f2 efge f4 ed | f2 (3gfe fb afed (Acd |
# Posted on May 10th 2011 by celticturntable
Re: Timing of Fox Hunter's Slip Jig
I take it that the last three notes are meant to be a triplet?
All I can say is that you must have a gem there.
It doesn't make much sense in 12/8, especially the (3gfe triplet - it's in an odd place.
But it must be a unique recording. Get it remastered and sell it on your website!
Then again, maybe not.
I think I'll tweak your version into a polska. It is interesting.
X:1
T: Polska efter Mikael Kolmann
R:Polska
M:3/4
L:1/8
K:Em
B2EF GA|B2EF GA|B2EF GA|dB AF (3DEF:|
|:f2ef ge|f4ed|f2 (3gfe fb|af ed (3Acd:|
Key is entered after your suggestion. More of a D tune in my reckoning.
# Posted on May 10th 2011 by Weejie
Re: Timing of Fox Hunter's Slip Jig
That fast 3/4 feel with a bit of a swing that you call a polska is what I and many other musicians call a "hop jig" and have done so since at least Francis O'Neill's day. I don't know anything about competition step dancing and studiously avoid it. It has nothing to do with real Irish music or even real Irish dancing these days.
# Posted on May 10th 2011 by Seosamh Ui Sinan
Re: Timing of Fox Hunter's Slip Jig
thank @Weejie. Please let me know if I am out to lunch but that is what I hear on the Carignan Version above on my initial posting and that of Michael Colemans original recording.
# Posted on May 10th 2011 by celticturntable
Re: Timing of Fox Hunter's Slip Jig
"That fast 3/4 feel with a bit of a swing that you call a polska is what I and many other musicians call a "hop jig" "
Polskas can often be interchanged with 9/8 jigs. The 3/4 timing is just a nominal signature, like the 9/8. That was why I intentionally converted it. However, the 12/8 example above is nothing like the Coleman jig or the Carignan example, IMO.
# Posted on May 10th 2011 by Weejie
Re: Timing of Fox Hunter's Slip Jig
Here is a polska version of the notes played by Coleman on the recording I linked to. It comes close to the 9/8 version.
X:1
T:Foxhunter's
R:Polska
M:3/4
L:1/8
K:D
B3/2B/2 {c}B3/2A/2 F3/2A/2|B3/2E/2 E3/2F/2 G3/2A/2|
B2B3/2A/2 F3/2A/2|d3/2D/2 D3/2F/2 E3/2D/2:|
|:f3/2f/2 (3fef g3/2e/2|f3/2f/2 (3fef e3/2d/2|
d3/2f/2 (3fef g3/2e/2|a3/2d/2 d3/2f/2 e3/2d/2:|
Play at a fair whack and imagine an out of time piano and you are not too far away.
# Posted on May 10th 2011 by Weejie
Re: Timing of Fox Hunter's Slip Jig
Absolutely it doesn't work. A 12/8 tune is a SLIDE or a SINGLE JIG, full stop. A 9/8 tune can be played as a SLIP or HOP jig, full stop. A 12/8 tune is not a hop jig, although dancers insist on dancing the hop jig dance to 12/8 tunes. Go figure.
# Posted on May 10th 2011 by Seosamh Ui Sinan
Re: Timing of Fox Hunter's Slip Jig
O.K. So, the timing question is about time signature. I'd use 9/8 not 12/8. But transcriptions aren't cast in stone. Do whatever you see fit.
Personally I consider the Jean Carignan recording to be one version (or variation) of "Foxhunter's Slip Jig". So, if I was transcribing the recording I'd add it to the comments of the tune already submitted. Fair play to use hop jig in naming that transcription. I tend to call them all slip jigs.
Previous comments ~
From a dancer's perspective...
January 21st 2004 by Zina Lee
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/2748/comments#comment54013
Hop Jigs = Slip Jigs
"If you're calling 3/4 the difference, which some have tried to make a claim for, well, taking the 'skip' or 'hop' out of the music and turning it to the interesting alternative form of 3/4 ~ nah! That isn't about the dance or the dancer, that is a bit of fun for the musician, something we do for a bit of fun. I'll stick to the historic and 'meaningful' use of the term 'hop', which is what a slip jig has in it when given the swing of a 'skip', a 'hop', that good old slow quick of N2 N that lifts the feet, gives dance that bit of rhythmic definition and electricity. But, hey, I wouldn't take away from the fun of trying it on in a 3/4 kind of way. I've enjoyed that myself. But there's nothing 'hop' about it... Some folks have even taken to trying to distinguish it with the added term 'polka'..."
November 2nd 2008 by ceolachan
# Posted on May 10th 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: Timing of Fox Hunter's Slip Jig
"A 9/8 tune can be played as a slip or hop jig" ~ Seosamh Ui Sinan
Yes!
"It's all in the interpretation, or, how you play them. With more slow quick or ~ | N2 N N2 N N2 N | ~ rather than the other alternative of ~ | NNN NNN NNN | ~ the more it will bounce rhythmically..."
~
ceolachan
# Posted on May 10th 2011 by Ben Steen
The double smilie was implied
"But transcriptions aren't cast in stone."
(They just collect dust on their servers)
# Posted on May 10th 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: Timing of Fox Hunter's Slip Jig
""But transcriptions aren't cast in stone." (They just collect dust on their servers)"
Some of those 78s collected a bit too much dust as well.
If only Mr Coleman was around today.......
# Posted on May 10th 2011 by Weejie
Re: Timing of Fox Hunter's Slip Jig
I think the hop jig interpretation of 9/8 tunes was used to accompany a type of dance that no longer exists thanks to the Famine and emigration. Another of the great blessings bestowed on us by 19th century laissez faire capitalism.
# Posted on May 10th 2011 by Seosamh Ui Sinan
Re: Timing of Fox Hunter's Slip Jig
Yes, I get what ceolachan is saying. The tune I (and Seosamh) would call a "hop jig" is far less hoppy than the one I'd call a "slip jig." See the youtube videos I posted above.
# Posted on May 10th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Timing of Fox Hunter's Slip Jig
cross post
# Posted on May 10th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Timing of Fox Hunter's Slip Jig
give a listen to this at 4:27
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fte3qE6vecc
that's more or less what I would consider a "hop jig" interpretation of the Foxhunter's, although David sticks in quite some pippety little runs up and down the chanter. Ennis gave both this tune and The Rocky Road this treatment as well.
# Posted on May 10th 2011 by Seosamh Ui Sinan
Re: Timing of Fox Hunter's Slip Jig
there's a great version here starting at 1:25.
http://youtu.be/uNhkRQB6rwg
FWIW i would call this slip jig
# Posted on May 10th 2011 by pipewatcher
Re: Timing of Fox Hunter's Slip Jig
FWIW i would call this slip jig
so would I, pipewatcher.
# Posted on May 10th 2011 by Seosamh Ui Sinan
Re: Timing of Fox Hunter's Slip Jig
David is a master of the pippety runs.
I saw this live at Celtic Connections in 2010. It's a beautifully done show.
I learned the hop jig version of the Foxhunter's from David's playing (maybe not as many pippeties, as I don't have anything close to David's ability) and also picked up a few thoughts on it from the Harry Bradley/Paul O'Shaughnessy version. To really confuse people at a session, I'll start a set with the hop jig and then after a few rounds of it, switch to the slip jig. Maybe throw in the reel for good measure.
# Posted on May 10th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Timing of Fox Hunter's Slip Jig
Of all the youtube clips in all the world...
Pipewatcher, I posted that same clip as an example of a slip jig.
# Posted on May 10th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Timing of Fox Hunter's Slip Jig
TSS- that's what i'm saying- the terminology seems to be pretty loose. i would call the clip in the OP a hop jig. dancers have a completely different meaning for hop jig. i've also heard the term skip jig ..
a rose by any other name etc....
cheers
# Posted on May 10th 2011 by pipewatcher
Re: Timing of Fox Hunter's Slip Jig
Yeah, I'm aware it means something else to competition dancers but they inhabit a different planet.
Most musicians I deal with understand that hop jig means something like the tune in both Seosamh's and the OP's clip. Insofar as communicating something about the tune you're about to play goes, hop jig has a specific meaning in musician circles.
# Posted on May 10th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Timing of Fox Hunter's Slip Jig
Silver Spear
oh yeah, we're on the same page- mine just doesn't reload very fast. hehheh. great version of that tune though. can't get my musicianer pals to learn it though -they all want to play it the hop jig version
cheers
# Posted on May 10th 2011 by pipewatcher
Re: Timing of Fox Hunter's Slip Jig
I keep learning that tune and then forgetting it. I tried starting it at a session at the weekend and after utterly trainwrecking the first few bars, decided it wasn't going to go and bailed out into Redican's Mother (another slip jig
)
# Posted on May 10th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Timing of Fox Hunter's Slip Jig
"Redican's Mother (another slip jig)"
I play that as a hop jig.......
Joke.
# Posted on May 10th 2011 by Weejie
Re: Timing of Fox Hunter's Slip Jig
That would be exciting. Might try that next time I have the pipes out, for the craic.
# Posted on May 10th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Timing of Fox Hunter's Slip Jig
Competition dancers bloody well don't inhabit a different planet. This is DANCE music! What are you going to do when an 8-year old kid at a ceili asks for a "hop jig"? Play a slip jig and argue semantics with the kid when she can't do her step to your music?
# Posted on May 11th 2011 by ElaineT