I've been struggling the last couple of weeks to learn "The Steeplechase" and "The Graf Spey" on my fiddle. I could pick out some parts, but there was so much complication that i just couldn't get them through. I thought i was just too slow or unskilled to pick it up. Turns out that was true, for Fiddle.
So, i decided to learn it on piano first. It took around 45 min. to get both of them down-pat enough to play them without the recording, but my goodness was it a long 45 min.
First i had to learn them in the key it was recorded in *Eb...* then learn it in the key that was common for it *C*, both of which are keys i am very unfamiliar with on Fiddle.
Playing the tune in the key of C without the recording took the longest to achieve. To make sure i was right, i transposed the keyboard up 3 steps so i could physically play it in the key of C, while hearing it in the key of Eb.
There were a couple instruments, i think, Button Accordion, and 2 Fiddles for "Steeplechase" and a piano came in for "The Graf Spey, and all of them played *slightly* different parts(accept for piano, which accompanied), so i have all kinds of of variations to work with from the recording, and i learned several.
Well, it's been about 3 days and i can play the 2 part "Steeplechase" through with minimal mistakes. And i can play 4 parts of "The Graf Spey". (I didn't have time to learn the 5th cause i had to work.) The only downside is that i can't play along with the recording :( But i've found other recordings in C, still not as awesome as Kevin Burkes' though. I don't have those recordings on CD either, so that's not fun.
This is sooo exciting since I've only been playing this music for like, close to 4 months now. I'm already learning hard tunes! Hard tunes that i like! I thought i would have to practice for weeks and weeks on fiddle to at least learn the notes, but NOPE! I only had to spend close to an hour learning it on piano first. What a Sweet Relief aye?!
Yay! for previously learned instruments!
(Ok, now that part's over.)
A side note. Since i was unfamiliar with the key of C on fiddle, my intonation was BAD! So i decided to record scale warm-ups on my keyboard. First with tunes I already new for the keys of D, and G. It helped my intonation TREMENDOUSLY warming up my scales beside a perfect pitch instrument! I sound a lot better now that i take the time to do long warm ups. Yay! Again!
Good for you Jerone. Sometimes I can struggle to figure out what's going on with a passage when I'm learning a tune on the fiddle, but when I pick up a whistle it just seems to fall under my fingers.
There are three things I can do when I encounter out-of-key recordings: one is to make an mp3 and put it through a bit of software to permanently change the pitch so that it is exactly in tune. I do this with all the recordings that I keep.
The second is just to re-tune a fiddle (I have another one handy for the purpose) which I use to learn tunes that I don't particularly want to keep.
Once I have learned a tune, I make a copy in ABC, which I use when I'm deciding what to play. Come to think of it, I very rarely transpose a tune -- I suppose the original musician would be playing in the most apt key -- but I have occasionally, and it's dead easy with ABC.
The third is a bit more difficult to learn, but makes life easier sometimes, and that is to play with no open strings. I do this for learning slow airs, usually, as I'm not particularly adept at it. It's handy for keys like B and Bb, which are common keys for the pipes, and saves re-tuning or re-recording anything.
Glad to hear you're still keen. This really is the best music in the world!
You can play along with Kevin Burkes' version of the Graf Spey in C by dropping the mp3 into a program like Amazing Slow Downer (search this site for details) and then lowering the pitch by 3 semitones. Right key - version-u-like! You can also save an mp3 in this new key for use in other programs or players.
I do this for lots of tunes off commercial albums when they've recorded in unusual keys.
I tried to learn the guitar once. Actually, it was typical procrastination because I got the guitar of a friend and it was without wires. As you can guess, I never went on learning it
What do you mean by "tune the fiddle down to C?"
Why re-tune the fiddle? We have all the notes on the fingerboard. Some keys might be somewhat easier than others, but the notes are still there, under the hand.
As for a "previously learned instrument" I thought that was why humming/lilting a tune was important.
and if you don't like the key, put it in another, unless you have session mates that play instruments that like that particular key. Then learn it in that key. or sit it out if you can't.
We joke at our session about "fiddle tunes" and "flute tunes." Not a big deal.
I know plenty of people who re-tune their fiddles to the appropriate key when playing with pipers and flute players whose instruments are in B, Bb, C, Eb, etc. You wouldn't do that to learn a tune that happens to be in C, though. You'd just learn the damned tune in C!
"as for previously learned instruments..." I used the keyboard to see if what i thought i was hearing was correct. It must've have been a good idea cause i ended up making corrections to the parts i already learned on fiddle. It's one thing to hear what the notes are doing, but another to actually get to see what they are doing. I didn't wanna learn it by sheet so i just learned it on keys
gam-- i never got that whole "ABC notation" thing... it looks like wierd musical algebra or something(i admit, it kindof creeps me out a bit.) I would like to learn it but, i'm not sure how helpful it would be. About the re-tuning. I'm a pianist, so it's safe to assume that i'm pretty lazy when it comes to tuning istruments(probably the only thing i don't like about the strings.) It's frustrating with a friction-peg style fiddle. When i get them in tune, i keep them there. The only knobs i touch are the fine tuners. The no open strings idea it intimidating too, but i haven't found much cause for it yet. I try to stick to the easy stuff for now
*cross post* So there IS software that changes the pitch without changing the tempo... Hmmm, intense. It would be a neat little program to play around with just to hear what tune and songs would sound like in a different key I've always wondered... "If you hear/learn a tune in one key, do you favor that version of it just because you heard it that way first? If you heard it in a different key first, would you like it as much, or maybe even more/less?" Wow, i think too much.
Uh-oh! Time for a corney pun! It says that one of the other features is that it has "keyboard shortcuts". I think i found my own "keyboard shortcut". Lol, i know what they mean though. That's cool. So they can change the pitch without changing the tempo, AND change the tempo without changing pitch. Nice... nice. It would be a nice toy, but i think i'll save my money this time.
It is also possible to learn a tune from someone playing a C chanter or an Eb flute or whatever by hearing the intervals and working out where they are on your D instrument; basically doing the transposing in your head as you're learning the tune. Mind you, I usually change it in Amazing Slow Downer cause I've gotten really feckin lazy these days, but when I first learned to play, I used to do that as an ear improvement exercise.
"What do you mean by 'tune the fiddle down to C?'"
Tue the fiddle down a whole tone, so that tunes normally in D (i.e. the majority of tunes in the tradtion) come out in C.
Why re-tune the fiddle? We have all the notes on the fingerboard. Some keys might be somewhat easier than others, but the notes are still there, under the hand.
A fiddle sounds different tuned down a tone and played with 'D fingering' from how it sounds played in standard pitch using 'C fingering'. This is due in part to the fiddle being under less tension and in part due to the different 'positions' of the open strings in the scale, resulting in different overtones. So it broadens the 'acoustic palette', if you like.
A practical reason for tuning up or down would be when you are playing with flute/pipes/whistle in a non-standard pitch, as it avoids the necessity for transposing every tune on the hoof - easy for some people but not all. As it happens, the keys of C and F are not really any more difficult to play in than D and G, once you know where the notes are and I, for one, enjoy trying out tunes in the 'wrong' key out of curiosity. But Eb, Ab and Bb are not so comfortable for those of us accustomed to playing in open positions all the time (i.e. most traditional players).
Thanks for the explanation. I still think it would be easier just to play the tune where it sits on my fiddle in whatever key than to retune or bring another fiddle tunes that way.
"I still think it would be easier just to play the tune where it sits on my fiddle in whatever key than to retune or bring another fiddle tunes that way."
Do you give lessons, wyogal? I'm not sure I could afford the air fare to bring you over, but I could provide board and lodgings. I make very good porridge.
I think i'm fine learning tunes in original keys, but if it's not common then i'll learn it in common. I played a tune the way i learned it "Eb" and only the button player knew how to play it. I played it again in a the original key "D" and just about everyone could play it. Also, it would be helpful for me to learn how to play in all keys, since i plan on studying far more than ITM.
Starting from any given note is easier for piano than it is on fiddle. The scale structure of a piano is more simple than a fiddle. Nothing is wrong with hearing the tune in your head(that's kindof how music works right?) but nothing is wrong with looking at it either.
What wyogal is trying to say is that if you play what's in your head rather than what's on the page, you are thinking of the tune as INTERVALS rather than being locked to whatever key happens to be on the page. This is VERY useful, because it gives you the freedom to transpose at will, and with that freedom comes the ability to easily play with others, no matter what key they may be in.
But for now, Jerone, I think that what you have done is a step in the right direction, and it has obviously helped you in this instance. I don't think that learning ALL keys on a fiddle is particularly useful, but C is definitely a key you should be learning.
I disagree that the scale structure of a piano is more simple than a fiddle. For a start, the piano distinguishes in black and white (what greater distinction is there) between a lot of notes. Where as what vould be simpler than a smooth black line? All is equal.
I have to point out that a piano is not a >>perfect pitch instrument!>> It is an instrument designed to play adequately in any key, but is actually out of tune on nearly every note.
Singers and fiddlers, brass players generally all use justly tuned scales, not equalised scales.
Its ok to use it as a first approximation and Ok for sessions with other ET instruments , but IMO to get the full fiddle experience try playing your D scale, and G scale along with a D Drone and intonate to harmonise accordingly. Good to hear your enjoying the music
Wish there were "like" buttons for your posts.... I was going to try and explain further, but realized it would probably be futile. I was waiting to see when somebody else would chime in.
The "previously learned instrument" I was referring to earlier is your brain, your head, and your voice.
Know the tune in your head, hum it on your "previously learned instrument," then play it on your instrument of choice. Putting another instrument in the middle of that process seems to be an unnecessary step. But, if it works for you...
Not sure why the erroneous comparisons to the piano keep cropping up.
"What wyogal is trying to say is that if you play what's in your head rather than what's on the page, you are thinking of the tune as INTERVALS rather than being locked to whatever key happens to be on the page. This is VERY useful, because it gives you the freedom to transpose at will, and with that freedom comes the ability to easily play with others, no matter what key they may be in."
Oh ok. Thanks for clearing that up! It opens up my mind a bit more(cause i am terribly closed minded at times). I like the idea of being able to transpose at will.
"I disagree that the scale structure of a piano is more simple than a fiddle. For a start, the piano distinguishes in black and white (what greater distinction is there) between a lot of notes. Where as what would be simpler than a smooth black line? All is equal."
llig-- Ok, i see how you can disagree. But i say this because piano is just simply *Up,Down*, One pitch is in one place(unlike the strings). And the *W,W,H,W,W,W,H* is a lot easier to see than on a stringed instruments. And also, after playing for a bit, the black and white notes don't really matter. You learn that all of them are notes and all of them have relation whether it's consonant, or dissonant.
"I have to point out that a piano is not a >>perfect pitch instrument!>> It is an instrument designed to play adequately in any key, but is actually out of tune on nearly every note."
piobagusfidil--Ok, before the rumors start lol. I was talking about keyboard, the electronic relative to piano. I know that pianos aren't perfect pitch, but keyboards are(if they aren't broken... i think)
"but IMO to get the full fiddle experience try playing your D scale, and G scale along with a D Drone and intonate to harmonise accordingly."
That sounds hard, but i can try it
"Know the tune in your head, hum it on your "previously learned instrument," then play it on your instrument of choice."
wyogal-- i tried that but i couldn't catch all of the notes being played. I tried to hum along and sing the tune in my head but i would always come across "blank spots" where i just didn't know(couldn't hear) what was going on in the music. I knew that trying it on an instrument that i was more experienced at would help. An also, this was just a "Drastic measure" step. I really wanted to learn those tunes so i used what i already knew to get the job done. Surely i won't have to do this after 13 years of fiddle. Also, if the tune was in the original key in the first place i probably wouldn't have had to do it anyway lol.
I couldn't! lol, my humming couldn't keep up(and i didn't consider lilting cause i don't know how) I've had that CD for about 2 months now, and i've memorized all of my favorite tunes, but they were just too fast.
I think what threw me off was the variations. The button and fiddle doing something different at the transitions between phrases and also in some random places.
*cross post* With some other musics, i find myself hearing something different, and i usually don't know what it is until i look at it on an instrument. "Ohhhh THAT'S what the notes are doing! Nice... nice..." That's usually ALWAYS my reaction lol.
Ok with a good electronic keyboard you can set your intonation system and key, so fair enough. In which case once this is done ; set to just intonation in D then you have a good aural line to follow .
"But i say this because piano is just simply *Up,Down*, One pitch is in one place(unlike the strings). And the *W,W,H,W,W,W,H* is a lot easier to see than on a stringed instruments."
Seeing the notes is not necessary (talking about the playing of the notes, not the dots), one feels and hears them.
A string is like a number line, there are definite points on that line, yes an infinite number of them, but specific points that are the notes. A little plus or minus that spot, you have a different note, which we may not have a name for because it falls between our labels. We may also purposely play a little plus or minus that specific spot. But, the specific pitch is certainly in one specific place. (yes, can play up the string and find notes on lower strings that can be found on the upper strings as well)
on a fiddle, half steps touch. (unless you have really skinny fingers)
I began playing music on piano. Now I'm playing flute. When I listen to a recording of a flautist playing a cran I recognize what it is. If I had no knowledge of crans a piano would not help me to find it. When I cannot catch what is being played, I sing that bit. Then I can hear it, feel it, & get it in my head; all at the same time.
Yay! For previously learned instruments!
Yay! For previously learned instruments!
I've been struggling the last couple of weeks to learn "The Steeplechase" and "The Graf Spey" on my fiddle. I could pick out some parts, but there was so much complication that i just couldn't get them through. I thought i was just too slow or unskilled to pick it up. Turns out that was true, for Fiddle.
So, i decided to learn it on piano first. It took around 45 min. to get both of them down-pat enough to play them without the recording, but my goodness was it a long 45 min.
First i had to learn them in the key it was recorded in *Eb...* then learn it in the key that was common for it *C*, both of which are keys i am very unfamiliar with on Fiddle.
Playing the tune in the key of C without the recording took the longest to achieve. To make sure i was right, i transposed the keyboard up 3 steps so i could physically play it in the key of C, while hearing it in the key of Eb.
There were a couple instruments, i think, Button Accordion, and 2 Fiddles for "Steeplechase" and a piano came in for "The Graf Spey, and all of them played *slightly* different parts(accept for piano, which accompanied), so i have all kinds of of variations to work with from the recording, and i learned several.
Well, it's been about 3 days and i can play the 2 part "Steeplechase" through with minimal mistakes. And i can play 4 parts of "The Graf Spey". (I didn't have time to learn the 5th cause i had to work.) The only downside is that i can't play along with the recording :( But i've found other recordings in C, still not as awesome as Kevin Burkes' though. I don't have those recordings on CD either, so that's not fun.
This is sooo exciting since I've only been playing this music for like, close to 4 months now. I'm already learning hard tunes! Hard tunes that i like! I thought i would have to practice for weeks and weeks on fiddle to at least learn the notes, but NOPE! I only had to spend close to an hour learning it on piano first. What a Sweet Relief aye?!
Yay! for previously learned instruments!
(Ok, now that part's over.)
A side note. Since i was unfamiliar with the key of C on fiddle, my intonation was BAD! So i decided to record scale warm-ups on my keyboard. First with tunes I already new for the keys of D, and G. It helped my intonation TREMENDOUSLY warming up my scales beside a perfect pitch instrument! I sound a lot better now that i take the time to do long warm ups. Yay! Again!
# Posted on May 2nd 2011 by fiddlelearner
Re: Yay! For previously learned instruments!
Good for you Jerone. Sometimes I can struggle to figure out what's going on with a passage when I'm learning a tune on the fiddle, but when I pick up a whistle it just seems to fall under my fingers.
There are three things I can do when I encounter out-of-key recordings: one is to make an mp3 and put it through a bit of software to permanently change the pitch so that it is exactly in tune. I do this with all the recordings that I keep.
The second is just to re-tune a fiddle (I have another one handy for the purpose) which I use to learn tunes that I don't particularly want to keep.
Once I have learned a tune, I make a copy in ABC, which I use when I'm deciding what to play. Come to think of it, I very rarely transpose a tune -- I suppose the original musician would be playing in the most apt key -- but I have occasionally, and it's dead easy with ABC.
The third is a bit more difficult to learn, but makes life easier sometimes, and that is to play with no open strings. I do this for learning slow airs, usually, as I'm not particularly adept at it. It's handy for keys like B and Bb, which are common keys for the pipes, and saves re-tuning or re-recording anything.
Glad to hear you're still keen. This really is the best music in the world!
# Posted on May 2nd 2011 by gam
Re: Yay! For previously learned instruments!
You can play along with Kevin Burkes' version of the Graf Spey in C by dropping the mp3 into a program like Amazing Slow Downer (search this site for details) and then lowering the pitch by 3 semitones. Right key - version-u-like! You can also save an mp3 in this new key for use in other programs or players.
I do this for lots of tunes off commercial albums when they've recorded in unusual keys.
# Posted on May 2nd 2011 by Martin_BC
Re: Yay! For previously learned instruments!
I tried to learn the guitar once. Actually, it was typical procrastination because I got the guitar of a friend and it was without wires. As you can guess, I never went on learning it
# Posted on May 2nd 2011 by Bring22it
Re: Yay! For previously learned instruments!
don't some folks tune the fiddle down to C?
# Posted on May 2nd 2011 by Nate Ryan
Re: Yay! For previously learned instruments!
I play the Graf Spey in D. If it's good enough for John McSherry and Conal O'Grada, it's good enough for me.
# Posted on May 2nd 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Yay! For previously learned instruments!
What do you mean by "tune the fiddle down to C?"
Why re-tune the fiddle? We have all the notes on the fingerboard. Some keys might be somewhat easier than others, but the notes are still there, under the hand.
As for a "previously learned instrument" I thought that was why humming/lilting a tune was important.
and if you don't like the key, put it in another, unless you have session mates that play instruments that like that particular key. Then learn it in that key. or sit it out if you can't.
We joke at our session about "fiddle tunes" and "flute tunes." Not a big deal.
# Posted on May 2nd 2011 by Wyogal
Re: Yay! For previously learned instruments!
I know plenty of people who re-tune their fiddles to the appropriate key when playing with pipers and flute players whose instruments are in B, Bb, C, Eb, etc. You wouldn't do that to learn a tune that happens to be in C, though. You'd just learn the damned tune in C!
# Posted on May 2nd 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Yay! For previously learned instruments!
but why? to reach a lower note than the bottom g string?
# Posted on May 2nd 2011 by Wyogal
Re: Yay! For previously learned instruments!
"as for previously learned instruments..." I used the keyboard to see if what i thought i was hearing was correct. It must've have been a good idea cause i ended up making corrections to the parts i already learned on fiddle. It's one thing to hear what the notes are doing, but another to actually get to see what they are doing. I didn't wanna learn it by sheet so i just learned it on keys
# Posted on May 2nd 2011 by fiddlelearner
Re: Yay! For previously learned instruments!
gam-- i never got that whole "ABC notation" thing... it looks like wierd musical algebra or something(i admit, it kindof creeps me out a bit.) I would like to learn it but, i'm not sure how helpful it would be. About the re-tuning. I'm a pianist, so it's safe to assume that i'm pretty lazy when it comes to tuning istruments(probably the only thing i don't like about the strings.) It's frustrating with a friction-peg style fiddle. When i get them in tune, i keep them there. The only knobs i touch are the fine tuners. The no open strings idea it intimidating too, but i haven't found much cause for it yet. I try to stick to the easy stuff for now
# Posted on May 2nd 2011 by fiddlelearner
Re: Yay! For previously learned instruments!
get some "opporknockity" strings, you only tune once...
# Posted on May 2nd 2011 by Wyogal
Re: Yay! For previously learned instruments!
*cross post* So there IS software that changes the pitch without changing the tempo... Hmmm, intense. It would be a neat little program to play around with just to hear what tune and songs would sound like in a different key
I've always wondered... "If you hear/learn a tune in one key, do you favor that version of it just because you heard it that way first? If you heard it in a different key first, would you like it as much, or maybe even more/less?" Wow, i think too much.
# Posted on May 2nd 2011 by fiddlelearner
Re: Yay! For previously learned instruments!
http://www.ronimusic.com/
# Posted on May 2nd 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Yay! For previously learned instruments!
Uh-oh! Time for a corney pun!
It says that one of the other features is that it has "keyboard shortcuts". I think i found my own "keyboard shortcut". Lol, i know what they mean though. That's cool. So they can change the pitch without changing the tempo, AND change the tempo without changing pitch. Nice... nice. It would be a nice toy, but i think i'll save my money this time.
# Posted on May 2nd 2011 by fiddlelearner
Re: Yay! For previously learned instruments!
There are free ones as well. I think Audacity might be free.
# Posted on May 2nd 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Yay! For previously learned instruments!
It is also possible to learn a tune from someone playing a C chanter or an Eb flute or whatever by hearing the intervals and working out where they are on your D instrument; basically doing the transposing in your head as you're learning the tune. Mind you, I usually change it in Amazing Slow Downer cause I've gotten really feckin lazy these days, but when I first learned to play, I used to do that as an ear improvement exercise.
# Posted on May 2nd 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Yay! For previously learned instruments!
what's a chanter? sounds fun.
# Posted on May 2nd 2011 by fiddlelearner
Re: Yay! For previously learned instruments!
"What do you mean by 'tune the fiddle down to C?'"
Tue the fiddle down a whole tone, so that tunes normally in D (i.e. the majority of tunes in the tradtion) come out in C.
Why re-tune the fiddle? We have all the notes on the fingerboard. Some keys might be somewhat easier than others, but the notes are still there, under the hand.
A fiddle sounds different tuned down a tone and played with 'D fingering' from how it sounds played in standard pitch using 'C fingering'. This is due in part to the fiddle being under less tension and in part due to the different 'positions' of the open strings in the scale, resulting in different overtones. So it broadens the 'acoustic palette', if you like.
A practical reason for tuning up or down would be when you are playing with flute/pipes/whistle in a non-standard pitch, as it avoids the necessity for transposing every tune on the hoof - easy for some people but not all. As it happens, the keys of C and F are not really any more difficult to play in than D and G, once you know where the notes are and I, for one, enjoy trying out tunes in the 'wrong' key out of curiosity. But Eb, Ab and Bb are not so comfortable for those of us accustomed to playing in open positions all the time (i.e. most traditional players).
# Posted on May 2nd 2011 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Yay! For previously learned instruments!
"what's a chanter? sounds fun."
The chanter is the 'pipe' on a set of pipes (uilleann or other) on which the melody is played.
# Posted on May 2nd 2011 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Yay! For previously learned instruments!
*sigh* Oh, dear.....
# Posted on May 2nd 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Yay! For previously learned instruments!
Thanks for the explanation. I still think it would be easier just to play the tune where it sits on my fiddle in whatever key than to retune or bring another fiddle tunes that way.
# Posted on May 2nd 2011 by Wyogal
Re: Yay! For previously learned instruments!
"I still think it would be easier just to play the tune where it sits on my fiddle in whatever key than to retune or bring another fiddle tunes that way."
Do you give lessons, wyogal? I'm not sure I could afford the air fare to bring you over, but I could provide board and lodgings. I make very good porridge.
# Posted on May 2nd 2011 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Yay! For previously learned instruments!
# Posted on May 2nd 2011 by Wyogal
Re: Yay! For previously learned instruments!
and I just finished teaching a lesson...
# Posted on May 2nd 2011 by Wyogal
Re: Yay! For previously learned instruments!
I think i'm fine learning tunes in original keys, but if it's not common then i'll learn it in common. I played a tune the way i learned it "Eb" and only the button player knew how to play it. I played it again in a the original key "D" and just about everyone could play it. Also, it would be helpful for me to learn how to play in all keys, since i plan on studying far more than ITM.
# Posted on May 2nd 2011 by fiddlelearner
Re: Yay! For previously learned instruments!
Which is why it's good to hear the tune in your head, so it doesn't matter which note you start it on.
# Posted on May 2nd 2011 by Wyogal
Re: Yay! For previously learned instruments!
Starting from any given note is easier for piano than it is on fiddle. The scale structure of a piano is more simple than a fiddle. Nothing is wrong with hearing the tune in your head(that's kindof how music works right?) but nothing is wrong with looking at it either.
# Posted on May 2nd 2011 by fiddlelearner
Re: Yay! For previously learned instruments!
Yeah, don't play common tunes in stupid keys at sessions. People might get cranky.
# Posted on May 2nd 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Yay! For previously learned instruments!
well, for you, maybe.
# Posted on May 2nd 2011 by Wyogal
Re: Yay! For previously learned instruments!
yea, i didn't know that artists' recorded tunes in different keys than played. It was new to me.
# Posted on May 3rd 2011 by fiddlelearner
Re: Yay! For previously learned instruments!
What wyogal is trying to say is that if you play what's in your head rather than what's on the page, you are thinking of the tune as INTERVALS rather than being locked to whatever key happens to be on the page. This is VERY useful, because it gives you the freedom to transpose at will, and with that freedom comes the ability to easily play with others, no matter what key they may be in.
But for now, Jerone, I think that what you have done is a step in the right direction, and it has obviously helped you in this instance. I don't think that learning ALL keys on a fiddle is particularly useful, but C is definitely a key you should be learning.
# Posted on May 3rd 2011 by Moondyne Fiddler
Re: Yay! For previously learned instruments!
I disagree that the scale structure of a piano is more simple than a fiddle. For a start, the piano distinguishes in black and white (what greater distinction is there) between a lot of notes. Where as what vould be simpler than a smooth black line? All is equal.
# Posted on May 3rd 2011 by ...
Re: Yay! For previously learned instruments!
I have to point out that a piano is not a >>perfect pitch instrument!>> It is an instrument designed to play adequately in any key, but is actually out of tune on nearly every note.
Singers and fiddlers, brass players generally all use justly tuned scales, not equalised scales.
Its ok to use it as a first approximation and Ok for sessions with other ET instruments , but IMO to get the full fiddle experience try playing your D scale, and G scale along with a D Drone and intonate to harmonise accordingly. Good to hear your enjoying the music
# Posted on May 3rd 2011 by piobagusfidil
Re: Yay! For previously learned instruments!
Fretted instruments are the same. I notice it most on thirds. makes me wince.
# Posted on May 3rd 2011 by ...
Re: Yay! For previously learned instruments!
Wish there were "like" buttons for your posts.... I was going to try and explain further, but realized it would probably be futile. I was waiting to see when somebody else would chime in.
The "previously learned instrument" I was referring to earlier is your brain, your head, and your voice.
Know the tune in your head, hum it on your "previously learned instrument," then play it on your instrument of choice. Putting another instrument in the middle of that process seems to be an unnecessary step. But, if it works for you...
Not sure why the erroneous comparisons to the piano keep cropping up.
# Posted on May 3rd 2011 by Wyogal
Re: Yay! For previously learned instruments!
"What wyogal is trying to say is that if you play what's in your head rather than what's on the page, you are thinking of the tune as INTERVALS rather than being locked to whatever key happens to be on the page. This is VERY useful, because it gives you the freedom to transpose at will, and with that freedom comes the ability to easily play with others, no matter what key they may be in."
It opens up my mind a bit more(cause i am terribly closed minded at times). I like the idea of being able to transpose at will.
Oh ok. Thanks for clearing that up!
"I disagree that the scale structure of a piano is more simple than a fiddle. For a start, the piano distinguishes in black and white (what greater distinction is there) between a lot of notes. Where as what would be simpler than a smooth black line? All is equal."
llig-- Ok, i see how you can disagree. But i say this because piano is just simply *Up,Down*, One pitch is in one place(unlike the strings). And the *W,W,H,W,W,W,H* is a lot easier to see than on a stringed instruments. And also, after playing for a bit, the black and white notes don't really matter. You learn that all of them are notes and all of them have relation whether it's consonant, or dissonant.
"I have to point out that a piano is not a >>perfect pitch instrument!>> It is an instrument designed to play adequately in any key, but is actually out of tune on nearly every note."
piobagusfidil--Ok, before the rumors start lol. I was talking about keyboard, the electronic relative to piano. I know that pianos aren't perfect pitch, but keyboards are(if they aren't broken... i think)
"but IMO to get the full fiddle experience try playing your D scale, and G scale along with a D Drone and intonate to harmonise accordingly."
That sounds hard, but i can try it
"Know the tune in your head, hum it on your "previously learned instrument," then play it on your instrument of choice."
wyogal-- i tried that but i couldn't catch all of the notes being played. I tried to hum along and sing the tune in my head but i would always come across "blank spots" where i just didn't know(couldn't hear) what was going on in the music. I knew that trying it on an instrument that i was more experienced at would help. An also, this was just a "Drastic measure" step. I really wanted to learn those tunes so i used what i already knew to get the job done. Surely i won't have to do this after 13 years of fiddle. Also, if the tune was in the original key in the first place i probably wouldn't have had to do it anyway lol.
# Posted on May 3rd 2011 by fiddlelearner
Re: Yay! For previously learned instruments!
"i couldn't catch all of the notes being played" ~ interesting
# Posted on May 3rd 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: Yay! For previously learned instruments!
I couldn't! lol, my humming couldn't keep up(and i didn't consider lilting cause i don't know how) I've had that CD for about 2 months now, and i've memorized all of my favorite tunes, but they were just too fast.
I think what threw me off was the variations. The button and fiddle doing something different at the transitions between phrases and also in some random places.
# Posted on May 3rd 2011 by fiddlelearner
Re: Yay! For previously learned instruments!
"I think what threw me off was the variations." ~ very interesting
# Posted on May 3rd 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: Yay! For previously learned instruments!
*cross post* With some other musics, i find myself hearing something different, and i usually don't know what it is until i look at it on an instrument. "Ohhhh THAT'S what the notes are doing! Nice... nice..." That's usually ALWAYS my reaction lol.
# Posted on May 3rd 2011 by fiddlelearner
Re: Yay! For previously learned instruments!
Ok with a good electronic keyboard you can set your intonation system and key, so fair enough. In which case once this is done ; set to just intonation in D then you have a good aural line to follow .
But using the factory preset wont get you there!
# Posted on May 3rd 2011 by piobagusfidil
Re: Yay! For previously learned instruments!
fascinating!
# Posted on May 3rd 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: Yay! For previously learned instruments!
"But i say this because piano is just simply *Up,Down*, One pitch is in one place(unlike the strings). And the *W,W,H,W,W,W,H* is a lot easier to see than on a stringed instruments."
Seeing the notes is not necessary (talking about the playing of the notes, not the dots), one feels and hears them.
A string is like a number line, there are definite points on that line, yes an infinite number of them, but specific points that are the notes. A little plus or minus that spot, you have a different note, which we may not have a name for because it falls between our labels. We may also purposely play a little plus or minus that specific spot. But, the specific pitch is certainly in one specific place. (yes, can play up the string and find notes on lower strings that can be found on the upper strings as well)
on a fiddle, half steps touch. (unless you have really skinny fingers)
and as for "original" keys....
yes, fascinating indeed.
# Posted on May 4th 2011 by Wyogal
Re: Yay! For previously learned instruments!
I began playing music on piano. Now I'm playing flute. When I listen to a recording of a flautist playing a cran I recognize what it is. If I had no knowledge of crans a piano would not help me to find it. When I cannot catch what is being played, I sing that bit. Then I can hear it, feel it, & get it in my head; all at the same time.
# Posted on May 4th 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: Yay! For previously learned instruments!
(yes, can play up the string and find notes on lower strings that can be found on the upper strings as well)
# Posted on May 10th 2011 by fiddlelearner