Just thought I'd update folks in case there are others who are wondering about this....
I'd posted before about why some players sound rushed (or just sound fast) when they play and others sound like a lazy sunday - even if they are both playing at top speed. And how to move towards the latter end....I got lots of good suggestions. (This is NOT about tempo rushing btw - though it is related.)
But it actually ended up being Kevin who gave me the key to solve the issue (which is not solved yet but at least I know what I have to do now! Only took us weeks of talking about it for me to get it.). He just said to practice the way he did - play a phrase at the speed you want it to be over and over until it lays down the way you want it to sound. Then do the next phrase. Then hook them together. I do this all the time to learn the notes or ornaments but I haven't ever done it to correct the rhythm before...
How freaking simple does that sound?
In reality, I'm finding it devilishly hard to do. I can usually get one phrase to lay down the right way (I've recorded myself so I have an objective observer) and sound relaxed even at speed but when I put it with the next phrase it gets slightly off again. So far I've spent a week and a half on one tune LOL I'm hoping it gets easier once I get the hang of it.
I'm guessing some folks are just more rhythmically gifted and naturally are able to do this (or have played for so long they eventually get it by osmosis) but I feel like I have to rewire my brain to get it right. The only plus is that I've listened to so much Irish music in the past couple of years that I at least know what I'm listening for when I play - what kind of rhythm/feel it is I'm seeking. (Okay well Kevin helped with that too by pointing out all the things I should be listening for....)
I feel like a bit of an idiot for not figuring out how to do this sooner - but at least there is an answer.
Here's hoping it gets easier and becomes second nature soon!
HTH
" I feel like I have to rewire my brain to get it right"
I have long been of the opinion that this is exactly what is happening.
The connections we have in our brains do not enable us to play any tune we like, any more than being able to throw and catch would allow us to juggle. All the suggestions to "listen, listen and listen again" and to "practise, practise", are, I think, indicative of the way our brains build physical connections.
When you learn one phrase, it 'goes to' one part of the brain. Another phrase goes to another part. But there is no part that connects them. A few minutes spent practising the connection, the transition from one phrase to the next, should resolve it.
I have found a similar situation when stringing tunes together:- I might know two tunes perfectly well, but as soon as I try to change from one to the other, it's like rushing into a room full of doors -- Which way? Where's the next tune? Sh*t, this isn't it, I'm in the fecking Kesh.
Once I've done it a couple of times, however, the 'room' disappears and becomes part of the general 'corridor' which has now become that set.
I don't know if you've ever seen people just before a bob-sleigh race rehearsing the run; but they are obviously following every twist and turn in their mind, eyes closed, upper body twisting and dipping as they negotiate the course. That route has to be internalized to such an extent in order to avoid disaster, let alone win the race. Similarly with learning a tune, but at least if you fall off a tune it doesn't hurt.
Thanks for the advice from Mr Burke. Nothing he plays sounds
rushed or tense -- which I actually find annoying after a while
-- but he's the master of relaxation!
sounds like good advice. a week on a tune sounds about right. james kelly taught me to dos this, as well, and i tell you, i'm still working on the first hornpipe he had me do it on, and that was 3 years ago.
whenever i work at the music like you describe i get better in leaps and bounds, but it takes a lot of patience. i have been known to spend a whole evening on one measure. needless to say, i don't do that too often!
I have said this before, but it doesn't hurt to repeat it: mistakes, clumsy phrasing, dodgy rhythm-- all come from playing too fast. If you know the tune and can play it slowly then my advice would be to play it slowly and let it speed up of its own accord. Or play it fast when other players give you the support that you need to play fast.
I also find that when I play slowly I enjoy playing more and I relax and learn the tune that much better. The ornaments fall into place, the rhythm is solid, the phrasing makes sense. When I was taking fiddle lessons from Seamus Creagh (R.I.P.) he told me that there was no such thing as playing too slowly - that the speed would come on its own. Forty years later I again appreciate how right he was.
Not sure I agree with the idea that you should play it slow and let it speed upon it's own. That has not been my experience.
I've found that I have a tendency to play a very different rhythm and phrasing if I play a reel slowly. And what works at a slow tempo often doesn't work at a fast one. And I often have to push myself to move beyond my own inner "set" tempo (usually 104-108) to get up to proper speed (110-114). Otherwise I'd probably stay at a moderate speed forever LOL
Practicing short phrases at the proper speed helps me learn to speed up my ear, get a feel for the rhythm and make corrections on the fly as needed. Still not great at this but it's getting better.
jigisup, that's precisely the point of playing slow--to play it with the same feel and mechanics as you would up tempo. If you can't do it slowly, then it won't work faster.
Then (of course) you have to do it again at the pace you want to play, to find out where the kinks are.
On the bright side, definitely embrace the idea of playing a phrase over and over while paying attention to *everything*--not letting any detail escape your attention. There's no point in repetition for its own sake. If you're not improving, fine tuning, refining, then you're not really practicing, you're just making the same mistakes over and over and learning to play *that* way.
I understood what you guys are saying about playing slow (I did have 12 years of classical training as a child - so I get it). I'm just saying that it doesn't get me where I want to go in this instance. I'm not convinced you can get the feel for a reel played slowly in the same way you can when it's up to speed. At least that wasn't working for me. It wasn't until I tried the "up-to-speed but one phrase at a time" that the notes started laying down the way they needed to.
Again this is just my experience personally....if you want to do it the other way and it works for you fine. It just wasn't doing diddly squat for me with regards to the laid-back rhythm thing. Maybe a difference in learning style or something.....
If you're asking how can you correct it playing up to speed, well my experience is what happens whenever I play with a metronome (which I'm doing as well, btw) - as you play a passage over and over with a metronome your perception of time changes. What feels incredibly fast to begin with starts to slow down and you start to feel like you have oceans of time between the notes. The beat drifts from leading you to feeling more centered.
So correcting it at speed, once you've gotten that perception in your head, means that you start to play with hesitating on launching when you start a note (which is mostly what I need) or lengthening it's duration (or in some cases speeding these things up, if that's what's needed). Or maybe lengthening one, then shorting up another, etc
I did try doing this at a more moderate pace but wrong rhythms kept creeping in because I had so much more time. I felt like things were getting worse, rather than better. When I play at speed, it demands certain ways of playing that are just not there when you play slower. Surely you've heard enough folks hornpipe a reel to know that this is pretty common?
Anyway I was frustrated and Kevin was like "well don't do that then". Ever the voice of reason. He said he always immediately started doing the phrase at speed thing when he practiced and it seems to work for him so I'm giving it a try. The trick is that your ear has to be up to it - and I've been working hard for 6 months to get my ear ready to hear things this fast.
It seems to be working to just do it at speed. I'm not playing it "wrong" over and over again at speed - I'm correcting it as I play it over and over again until I can feel the shift I need to make as it goes by. It gets more and more "right".
This is so hard to explain, but surely if you're an experienced player you understand what I'm saying?
Anyway, if it doesn't work for you, then it doesn't. But it DOES work for me. Just thought I would share for those who might have similar questions. Sorry if it contradicts your given way of doing things.
"I'm not convinced you can get the feel for a reel played slowly in the same way you can when it's up to speed"
As you like. I never feel like I really understand a tune until I can play it at any pace I choose, and I always find that I can play a tune faster if I spend a while playing slow, but that's me.
(by slow, I mean well under "normal" pace, but keeping all of the rhythm intact - I don't mean breaking it down into isolated notes or turning it into an air or anything silly like that)
the reason that working slow is so beneficial is because it allows for extra resources to listen to the music, think about it, and make decisions. when playing fast, you don't have this luxury. in other words, playing slow increases the demand on attentional resources, allowing more resources for thought, consideration, and improvement.
playing isolated fragments does the same thing... rather than having to worry about the entire tune, you end up having to keep 8 or 16 notes in working memory at a time. this allows you extra space to think and process, improve, and change.
i would then argue that if you play slow AND isolate phrases, then you get double the benefits, without any of the negatives.
also, @jigisup: you say you don't think playing slow will eventually lead to your playing speeding up naturally? well, you then go on to say that playing short sequences repetitively gradually increases quality of phrasing and rhythm. i do agree with you on this point, but i would argue that they are the same thing, and as i said above, isolating phrases and playing slowly can work together.
If playing slow works for you to get a better rhythm/timing then great. It didn't work for me on THIS issue AT ALL (not like I didn't try it already) . I need to hear the rhythm/timing at speed to "get it". That's just what works for me. I thought I would post something that seems to be working FOR ME.
Why are you guys so anxious that I should follow YOUR method of learning????
The ultimate proof is in the pudding....if a year from now this method has smoothed everything out and fixed the timing issue, then it's one that works. If it hasn't then it doesn't
To each his own. You guys keep playing slow to fix your timing and speeding it up. I'll keep trying my way for now.
No, thanks for posting the update. This has come up here and on another forum before. Despite first-hand reports by people about the methods that a respected player and teacher has suggested to individual students people are more interested in arguing against them than discussing why they may be beneficial. Practicing slow works for me, and I am wondering if practicing at speed is maybe a fiddle thing - something to do with bowing and the dynamics of sound generation. But people seem more interested in denying it that discussing it.
We are trying to learn to do something at a speed at which we won't have time to conciously think about it or when thinking about something else is more useful.
Thanks very much for posting this. I've done this at specific points to fix problems, but hadn't thought about it as a method for relaxing, etc. I appreciate your post.
I think the issue of slow vs. fast is completely separate from what you were talking about.
there are definitely certain things about bowing a fiddle that change when you play the same thing at different speeds. If you play slower then your notes will be longer which will require you to use (at least a little) more bow, which will change where your tendency to switch bow direction. Playing slow is a good exercise but it will not help you bow to speed unless you can actually play with the same bowing at slow speed as you would use at full tempo. If you can't play a piece at full tempo (whatever you decide that is, or whatever speed they play at your local session) then you don't know what bowing to ultimately use. Full speed forces you to bow properly or you will fall off your horse, while slower speeds might cater to the tendency to slur notes together where there might be a switch at a faster speed. Example. Clare style fiddling has more slurring and is slower typically than Donegal fiddling which is fast with a wild bow (switching direction more often)
I guess this is why I've heard people say, practice slow, but switch every note, then decide where you want to slur and "add" those slurs where you want them.
Why are you guys so anxious that I should follow YOUR method of learning???? " ---
I really don't give a damn whether or not you follow anybody's advice. I'll probably never have to listen to your playing. A lot of people who have been playing a lot longer than you, and who have a lot more tunes under their belts, have commented on your new method. Did you post expecting that everybody would rush to congratulate you? Did you only post so that we would encourage you to do something that hasn't worked for us?
I hope you post a clip of your playing so that you can demonstrate how effective your method is. I'll be the first to offer apologies. Meanwhile, there's no need for whining. If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.
While performing in symphonies, I always practiced sections slowly, in bits (chunking, as it's called in brain science), never at full speed. It gives time for neural pathways to connect, then when I needed to go faster, it was there. This mostly concerns my left hand, as bowing has never really been an issue (unless it's like flying spiccato or something like that which I never use).
But, not so slow as to screw up the context of the notes. When I slow down tunes too slow while learning, I don't hear the "tune." But, I don't take them at speed, either.
but then, I don't really practice all that much.
ha
David - DID YOU READ MY ORIGINAL POST? I think you need to take a chill pill.
"A lot of people who have been playing a lot longer than you, and who have a lot more tunes under their belts, have commented on your new method. Did you post expecting that everybody would rush to congratulate you? Did you only post so that we would encourage you to do something that hasn't worked for us? "
A) this is not MY method, it is Kevin Burke's method (I think he might qualify as someone with lots of tunes under his belt and who has been playing longer than me)
B) I didn't expect congratulations, I just expected a "thanks for the report back" on what ended up working for me, based on the previous thread and
C) I didn't need your encouragement, just not alot of "well here's why it doesn't work" when I just said it DID work. What is the point of telling someone why something doesn't work when she just said it DID? That makes no logical sense whatsoever.
And honey, don't be throwing me out of the kitchen until you've tasted my cooking.....if you want to PM me your email address, I'll send you an mp3 of my playing.
Since TYPING ALL IN CAPITALS is the on-line equivalent of shouting at someone, the previous post is a little funny. I think an order of chill pills all around is in order.
sillyhandle, you raised an interesting point that others are taking up for discussion. What's the problem with that? Nobody's telling you that what you're proposing can't work, they're talking about what they've done that's worked for them, or asking you to clarify what you're saying.
Okay I apologize for shouting. That wasn't nice. I get triggered when I hear someone being condescending....my bad.
And on the whole I think I responded civilly to most of the posts and tried to give (long-winded) explanations to further explain my position. I was not condescending and I certainly did not make fun of anyone's online name....but I did get frustrated by the pattern that was happening: someone posts a pro-slow message, I respond why that doesn't work for me, someone else posts a pro-slow message and I respond why it didn't work for me, etc
I was just getting tired of saying the same thing over and over.
"Play a phrase at the speed you want it to be over and over until it lays down the way you want it to sound."
over and over, over and over, over and over, over and over,
over rand over, over rand over, over rand over,
over ran dover, over ran dover, over ran dover,
overan dover, overan dover, overan dover, overan dover,
Phrases don't exist on their own. That's not how phrasing works. The whole point about good phrasing is making sense of them within the context of their surrounding phrases. If you practice isolated phrases overan dover they begin to loose their meaning.
Play the whole tune over and over to keep the context. But play it at a speed that you can comfortably manage what ever bit of it you are having trouble with. Then speed up.
Jig why is it you play Irish music? Is this yet another task for you to master? Why are you in such a hurry? I am only challenging you because of your apparent need for instant gratification, and notions that just because someone has a lot of tunes under their belt, or takes lessons from a famous is going to launch you to immediate success?
Most of the regs on here relish the journey they are on it seems to me, and I do to. It's off putting to be challenged by someone in such a rush....perhaps it is your personality that is rushing your music, once you learn to enjoy the journey, I wonder if your sound will follow?
Sounding rushed update
Sounding rushed update
Just thought I'd update folks in case there are others who are wondering about this....
I'd posted before about why some players sound rushed (or just sound fast) when they play and others sound like a lazy sunday - even if they are both playing at top speed. And how to move towards the latter end....I got lots of good suggestions. (This is NOT about tempo rushing btw - though it is related.)
But it actually ended up being Kevin who gave me the key to solve the issue (which is not solved yet but at least I know what I have to do now! Only took us weeks of talking about it for me to get it.). He just said to practice the way he did - play a phrase at the speed you want it to be over and over until it lays down the way you want it to sound. Then do the next phrase. Then hook them together. I do this all the time to learn the notes or ornaments but I haven't ever done it to correct the rhythm before...
How freaking simple does that sound?
In reality, I'm finding it devilishly hard to do. I can usually get one phrase to lay down the right way (I've recorded myself so I have an objective observer) and sound relaxed even at speed but when I put it with the next phrase it gets slightly off again. So far I've spent a week and a half on one tune LOL I'm hoping it gets easier once I get the hang of it.
I'm guessing some folks are just more rhythmically gifted and naturally are able to do this (or have played for so long they eventually get it by osmosis) but I feel like I have to rewire my brain to get it right. The only plus is that I've listened to so much Irish music in the past couple of years that I at least know what I'm listening for when I play - what kind of rhythm/feel it is I'm seeking. (Okay well Kevin helped with that too by pointing out all the things I should be listening for....)
I feel like a bit of an idiot for not figuring out how to do this sooner - but at least there is an answer.
Here's hoping it gets easier and becomes second nature soon!
HTH
# Posted on April 30th 2011 by thejigisup
Re: Sounding rushed update
" I feel like I have to rewire my brain to get it right"
I have long been of the opinion that this is exactly what is happening.
The connections we have in our brains do not enable us to play any tune we like, any more than being able to throw and catch would allow us to juggle. All the suggestions to "listen, listen and listen again" and to "practise, practise", are, I think, indicative of the way our brains build physical connections.
When you learn one phrase, it 'goes to' one part of the brain. Another phrase goes to another part. But there is no part that connects them. A few minutes spent practising the connection, the transition from one phrase to the next, should resolve it.
I have found a similar situation when stringing tunes together:- I might know two tunes perfectly well, but as soon as I try to change from one to the other, it's like rushing into a room full of doors -- Which way? Where's the next tune? Sh*t, this isn't it, I'm in the fecking Kesh.
Once I've done it a couple of times, however, the 'room' disappears and becomes part of the general 'corridor' which has now become that set.
I don't know if you've ever seen people just before a bob-sleigh race rehearsing the run; but they are obviously following every twist and turn in their mind, eyes closed, upper body twisting and dipping as they negotiate the course. That route has to be internalized to such an extent in order to avoid disaster, let alone win the race. Similarly with learning a tune, but at least if you fall off a tune it doesn't hurt.
# Posted on April 30th 2011 by gam
Re: Sounding rushed update
"at least if you fall off a tune it doesn't hurt."
Says you. I should wear a helmet.
# Posted on April 30th 2011 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Sounding rushed update
Thanks for the advice from Mr Burke. Nothing he plays sounds
rushed or tense -- which I actually find annoying after a while
-- but he's the master of relaxation!
# Posted on April 30th 2011 by Hup
Re: Sounding rushed update
sounds like good advice. a week on a tune sounds about right. james kelly taught me to dos this, as well, and i tell you, i'm still working on the first hornpipe he had me do it on, and that was 3 years ago.
whenever i work at the music like you describe i get better in leaps and bounds, but it takes a lot of patience. i have been known to spend a whole evening on one measure. needless to say, i don't do that too often!
# Posted on April 30th 2011 by daiv
Re: Sounding rushed update
I have said this before, but it doesn't hurt to repeat it: mistakes, clumsy phrasing, dodgy rhythm-- all come from playing too fast. If you know the tune and can play it slowly then my advice would be to play it slowly and let it speed up of its own accord. Or play it fast when other players give you the support that you need to play fast.
I also find that when I play slowly I enjoy playing more and I relax and learn the tune that much better. The ornaments fall into place, the rhythm is solid, the phrasing makes sense. When I was taking fiddle lessons from Seamus Creagh (R.I.P.) he told me that there was no such thing as playing too slowly - that the speed would come on its own. Forty years later I again appreciate how right he was.
# Posted on April 30th 2011 by David Levine
Re: Sounding rushed update
Not sure I agree with the idea that you should play it slow and let it speed upon it's own. That has not been my experience.
I've found that I have a tendency to play a very different rhythm and phrasing if I play a reel slowly. And what works at a slow tempo often doesn't work at a fast one. And I often have to push myself to move beyond my own inner "set" tempo (usually 104-108) to get up to proper speed (110-114). Otherwise I'd probably stay at a moderate speed forever LOL
Practicing short phrases at the proper speed helps me learn to speed up my ear, get a feel for the rhythm and make corrections on the fly as needed. Still not great at this but it's getting better.
Just my experience.
# Posted on April 30th 2011 by thejigisup
Re: Sounding rushed update
jigisup, that's precisely the point of playing slow--to play it with the same feel and mechanics as you would up tempo. If you can't do it slowly, then it won't work faster.
Then (of course) you have to do it again at the pace you want to play, to find out where the kinks are.
On the bright side, definitely embrace the idea of playing a phrase over and over while paying attention to *everything*--not letting any detail escape your attention. There's no point in repetition for its own sake. If you're not improving, fine tuning, refining, then you're not really practicing, you're just making the same mistakes over and over and learning to play *that* way.
# Posted on April 30th 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: Sounding rushed update
I understood what you guys are saying about playing slow (I did have 12 years of classical training as a child - so I get it). I'm just saying that it doesn't get me where I want to go in this instance. I'm not convinced you can get the feel for a reel played slowly in the same way you can when it's up to speed. At least that wasn't working for me. It wasn't until I tried the "up-to-speed but one phrase at a time" that the notes started laying down the way they needed to.
Again this is just my experience personally....if you want to do it the other way and it works for you fine. It just wasn't doing diddly squat for me with regards to the laid-back rhythm thing. Maybe a difference in learning style or something.....
# Posted on April 30th 2011 by thejigisup
Re: Sounding rushed update
If you get it wrong at a certain speed, how will playing it wrong at that speed make it better? I don't get it.
# Posted on April 30th 2011 by David Levine
Re: Sounding rushed update
Huh? I'm not sure I understand the question.
If you're asking how can you correct it playing up to speed, well my experience is what happens whenever I play with a metronome (which I'm doing as well, btw) - as you play a passage over and over with a metronome your perception of time changes. What feels incredibly fast to begin with starts to slow down and you start to feel like you have oceans of time between the notes. The beat drifts from leading you to feeling more centered.
So correcting it at speed, once you've gotten that perception in your head, means that you start to play with hesitating on launching when you start a note (which is mostly what I need) or lengthening it's duration (or in some cases speeding these things up, if that's what's needed). Or maybe lengthening one, then shorting up another, etc
I did try doing this at a more moderate pace but wrong rhythms kept creeping in because I had so much more time. I felt like things were getting worse, rather than better. When I play at speed, it demands certain ways of playing that are just not there when you play slower. Surely you've heard enough folks hornpipe a reel to know that this is pretty common?
Anyway I was frustrated and Kevin was like "well don't do that then". Ever the voice of reason. He said he always immediately started doing the phrase at speed thing when he practiced and it seems to work for him so I'm giving it a try. The trick is that your ear has to be up to it - and I've been working hard for 6 months to get my ear ready to hear things this fast.
It seems to be working to just do it at speed. I'm not playing it "wrong" over and over again at speed - I'm correcting it as I play it over and over again until I can feel the shift I need to make as it goes by. It gets more and more "right".
This is so hard to explain, but surely if you're an experienced player you understand what I'm saying?
Anyway, if it doesn't work for you, then it doesn't. But it DOES work for me. Just thought I would share for those who might have similar questions. Sorry if it contradicts your given way of doing things.
# Posted on April 30th 2011 by thejigisup
Re: Sounding rushed update
"I'm not convinced you can get the feel for a reel played slowly in the same way you can when it's up to speed"
As you like. I never feel like I really understand a tune until I can play it at any pace I choose, and I always find that I can play a tune faster if I spend a while playing slow, but that's me.
(by slow, I mean well under "normal" pace, but keeping all of the rhythm intact - I don't mean breaking it down into isolated notes or turning it into an air or anything silly like that)
# Posted on April 30th 2011 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Sounding rushed update
the reason that working slow is so beneficial is because it allows for extra resources to listen to the music, think about it, and make decisions. when playing fast, you don't have this luxury. in other words, playing slow increases the demand on attentional resources, allowing more resources for thought, consideration, and improvement.
playing isolated fragments does the same thing... rather than having to worry about the entire tune, you end up having to keep 8 or 16 notes in working memory at a time. this allows you extra space to think and process, improve, and change.
i would then argue that if you play slow AND isolate phrases, then you get double the benefits, without any of the negatives.
also, @jigisup: you say you don't think playing slow will eventually lead to your playing speeding up naturally? well, you then go on to say that playing short sequences repetitively gradually increases quality of phrasing and rhythm. i do agree with you on this point, but i would argue that they are the same thing, and as i said above, isolating phrases and playing slowly can work together.
# Posted on May 1st 2011 by daiv
Re: Sounding rushed update
SERIOUSLY????
(throws up hands in air)
Now I'm sorry I posted an update.
If playing slow works for you to get a better rhythm/timing then great. It didn't work for me on THIS issue AT ALL (not like I didn't try it already) . I need to hear the rhythm/timing at speed to "get it". That's just what works for me. I thought I would post something that seems to be working FOR ME.
Why are you guys so anxious that I should follow YOUR method of learning????
The ultimate proof is in the pudding....if a year from now this method has smoothed everything out and fixed the timing issue, then it's one that works. If it hasn't then it doesn't
To each his own. You guys keep playing slow to fix your timing and speeding it up. I'll keep trying my way for now.
# Posted on May 1st 2011 by thejigisup
Re: Sounding rushed update
No, thanks for posting the update. This has come up here and on another forum before. Despite first-hand reports by people about the methods that a respected player and teacher has suggested to individual students people are more interested in arguing against them than discussing why they may be beneficial. Practicing slow works for me, and I am wondering if practicing at speed is maybe a fiddle thing - something to do with bowing and the dynamics of sound generation. But people seem more interested in denying it that discussing it.
We are trying to learn to do something at a speed at which we won't have time to conciously think about it or when thinking about something else is more useful.
# Posted on May 1st 2011 by David50
Re: Sounding rushed update
Hey Jigsup:
Thanks very much for posting this. I've done this at specific points to fix problems, but hadn't thought about it as a method for relaxing, etc. I appreciate your post.
I think the issue of slow vs. fast is completely separate from what you were talking about.
# Posted on May 1st 2011 by Jmbu
Re: Sounding rushed update
there are definitely certain things about bowing a fiddle that change when you play the same thing at different speeds. If you play slower then your notes will be longer which will require you to use (at least a little) more bow, which will change where your tendency to switch bow direction. Playing slow is a good exercise but it will not help you bow to speed unless you can actually play with the same bowing at slow speed as you would use at full tempo. If you can't play a piece at full tempo (whatever you decide that is, or whatever speed they play at your local session) then you don't know what bowing to ultimately use. Full speed forces you to bow properly or you will fall off your horse, while slower speeds might cater to the tendency to slur notes together where there might be a switch at a faster speed. Example. Clare style fiddling has more slurring and is slower typically than Donegal fiddling which is fast with a wild bow (switching direction more often)
I guess this is why I've heard people say, practice slow, but switch every note, then decide where you want to slur and "add" those slurs where you want them.
# Posted on May 1st 2011 by Earl Cameron
Re: Sounding rushed update
--- "SERIOUSLY????
(throws up hands in air)
Now I'm sorry I posted an update.
Why are you guys so anxious that I should follow YOUR method of learning???? " ---
I really don't give a damn whether or not you follow anybody's advice. I'll probably never have to listen to your playing. A lot of people who have been playing a lot longer than you, and who have a lot more tunes under their belts, have commented on your new method. Did you post expecting that everybody would rush to congratulate you? Did you only post so that we would encourage you to do something that hasn't worked for us?
I hope you post a clip of your playing so that you can demonstrate how effective your method is. I'll be the first to offer apologies. Meanwhile, there's no need for whining. If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.
# Posted on May 2nd 2011 by David Levine
Re: Sounding rushed update
While performing in symphonies, I always practiced sections slowly, in bits (chunking, as it's called in brain science), never at full speed. It gives time for neural pathways to connect, then when I needed to go faster, it was there. This mostly concerns my left hand, as bowing has never really been an issue (unless it's like flying spiccato or something like that which I never use).
But, not so slow as to screw up the context of the notes. When I slow down tunes too slow while learning, I don't hear the "tune." But, I don't take them at speed, either.
but then, I don't really practice all that much.
ha
# Posted on May 2nd 2011 by Wyogal
Re: Sounding rushed update
David - DID YOU READ MY ORIGINAL POST? I think you need to take a chill pill.
"A lot of people who have been playing a lot longer than you, and who have a lot more tunes under their belts, have commented on your new method. Did you post expecting that everybody would rush to congratulate you? Did you only post so that we would encourage you to do something that hasn't worked for us? "
A) this is not MY method, it is Kevin Burke's method (I think he might qualify as someone with lots of tunes under his belt and who has been playing longer than me)
B) I didn't expect congratulations, I just expected a "thanks for the report back" on what ended up working for me, based on the previous thread and
C) I didn't need your encouragement, just not alot of "well here's why it doesn't work" when I just said it DID work. What is the point of telling someone why something doesn't work when she just said it DID? That makes no logical sense whatsoever.
And honey, don't be throwing me out of the kitchen until you've tasted my cooking.....if you want to PM me your email address, I'll send you an mp3 of my playing.
# Posted on May 2nd 2011 by thejigisup
Re: Sounding rushed update
Since TYPING ALL IN CAPITALS is the on-line equivalent of shouting at someone, the previous post is a little funny. I think an order of chill pills all around is in order.
sillyhandle, you raised an interesting point that others are taking up for discussion. What's the problem with that? Nobody's telling you that what you're proposing can't work, they're talking about what they've done that's worked for them, or asking you to clarify what you're saying.
# Posted on May 2nd 2011 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Sounding rushed update
Okay I apologize for shouting. That wasn't nice. I get triggered when I hear someone being condescending....my bad.
And on the whole I think I responded civilly to most of the posts and tried to give (long-winded) explanations to further explain my position. I was not condescending and I certainly did not make fun of anyone's online name....but I did get frustrated by the pattern that was happening: someone posts a pro-slow message, I respond why that doesn't work for me, someone else posts a pro-slow message and I respond why it didn't work for me, etc
I was just getting tired of saying the same thing over and over.
# Posted on May 2nd 2011 by thejigisup
Re: Sounding rushed update
Did it occur to you that they weren't trying to sell you something? Maybe they (we) were just making conversation?
(btw, don't take it personal if I make fun of your silly handle, they're all silly... what's wrong with a name, anyway?)
# Posted on May 2nd 2011 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Sounding rushed update
"Play a phrase at the speed you want it to be over and over until it lays down the way you want it to sound."
over and over, over and over, over and over, over and over,
over rand over, over rand over, over rand over,
over ran dover, over ran dover, over ran dover,
overan dover, overan dover, overan dover, overan dover,
Phrases don't exist on their own. That's not how phrasing works. The whole point about good phrasing is making sense of them within the context of their surrounding phrases. If you practice isolated phrases overan dover they begin to loose their meaning.
Play the whole tune over and over to keep the context. But play it at a speed that you can comfortably manage what ever bit of it you are having trouble with. Then speed up.
# Posted on May 2nd 2011 by ...
Re: Sounding rushed update
What's wrong with with playing at a speed at which it gets better with each repetition ?
(good night)
# Posted on May 2nd 2011 by David50
Re: Sounding rushed update
Jig why is it you play Irish music? Is this yet another task for you to master? Why are you in such a hurry? I am only challenging you because of your apparent need for instant gratification, and notions that just because someone has a lot of tunes under their belt, or takes lessons from a famous is going to launch you to immediate success?
Most of the regs on here relish the journey they are on it seems to me, and I do to. It's off putting to be challenged by someone in such a rush....perhaps it is your personality that is rushing your music, once you learn to enjoy the journey, I wonder if your sound will follow?
# Posted on May 6th 2011 by SandyBottoms
Re: Sounding rushed update
a famous -teacher- that is sorry- i lost that in my proof reading effort.
# Posted on May 6th 2011 by SandyBottoms