How good is a recorder nowadays? I don't know very much about them but it seems they can get more notes than a regular tin whistle, they can get some sharps we can't find in your everyday D companion.
I don't have enough money for a REAL flute, so I was thinking about picking up some plastic recorder to learn on it and going further after all the trials.
But .. is it recommended? How much of a difference it is?
Re: What about a recorder? (be it plastic or wood)
If they sounded good, you'd hear people playing them at sessions, wouldn't you? Unfortunately, they sound terrible for this music. They're great if you're playing the Brandenburgs or something.
Re: What about a recorder? (be it plastic or wood)
If recorders had been really cheap and plentiful at the right time, they might be part of the standard arsenal today, but we’ll never know. Consensus has it that the sound doesn’t work and probably never would. I’m not 100% convinced – maybe 97%.
Try it, if you want to, but also try a whistle and listen to some traditional players.
Re: What about a recorder? (be it plastic or wood)
It's probably more to do with the fingering than the sound.
I have a Jon Swayne blackwood whistle that sounds nearer to a recorder than a metal whistle.
Re: What about a recorder? (be it plastic or wood)
Plastic recorders are generally better than cheap whistles at the same price point. Knowing what to do with it counts for more than any expensive subtleties of construction. I use one of the cheap transparent Yamahas more than any other instrument, partly because I rather enjoy confounding people's expectations when I point out that what they think (after hearing me play it) must be some kind of exotic Celtic flute handed to me by a samite-clad arm emerging from a lake is, in fact, something they could buy from any music shop for about 8 quid. (I carry a much more expensive one in my bag, but usually go through a session without needing to get it out).
However. I don't go to Irish sessions, because of the attitudes I've experienced from people like "Bob himself". Scottish sessions have less bigots with bizarre preconceptions. So if you get one, learn some Scottish tunes on it.
One kind of recorder that has unique advantages is the Susato wide-bore G alto (or for even more overpowering effect its partner the G sopranino).
Its fingering is closely parallel to the Highland pipe, and like the Highland pipe it's very strong at the low end. So you can use it to play pipe tunes with your fingers doing similar things to what they'd be doing on the pipe chanter, and with similar dynamic balance. (The ElfSong Chanter Whistle would in theory be another way to get the same effect, but unfortunately they don't make them in the usual key for playing GHB tunes in sessions).
The Susato G recorder also lets you do most of the same stuff you could use a G whistle for - I used to have an Overton low G and got rid of it (effectively, gave it away free) when I realized it was just gathering dust; the Susato was far more flexible, wasn't a risk for smashing my teeth with its beak and didn't clog up in milliseconds with condensation if you started it cold.
Learning a slightly different fingering system is an irrelevance except to the very, very lazy. Recorders are a lot more similar to whistles than uilleann or Northumbrian pipes are.
Re: What about a recorder? (be it plastic or wood)
If you don't have enough money for a REAL flute, a cheap plastic flute would be better than a cheap plastic recorder. If you want to play any instrument, get a decent one. Cheap plastic recorders are not very good, which is why they have a bad reputation. I have a Dolmetsch wooden recorder that sounds fluty, but I wouldn't recommend spending your money on one if you want to play the flute. The fingering is different.
Re: What about a recorder? (be it plastic or wood)
If it's a flute you want, get a flute. If you haven't played too many flutes, but have played some whistle &/or recorder, all the more reason to start playing a standard open-holed model. Doug Tipple's 3 piece or Hammy Hamilton's don't cost very much.
Re: What about a recorder? (be it plastic or wood)
In the English sessions I go to both recorders and whistles are used, and they both work well in that ensemble. In any kind of session I don't mind which one I hear (recorder, whistle or variety of flute) as long as it is well-played, clean-sounding - and in tune.
Re: What about a recorder? (be it plastic or wood)
Nothing says "Royal and Imperial Scottish Country Dance Society" like a recorder -- after the cellos, basses and PAs, of course. That's why the recorder has pride of place -- after the cellos, basses and PAs -- in an RISCDS orchestra. The combined effect of all those instruments makes one feel as Queen Victoria herself might process into the ballroom and dance a step with the gillies. If your session is advertised as what folks here in the USA call a "Celtic" session, no one is likely to get upset at your tootling on a recorder. If your session is acknowledged to be an Irish session, and if you can actually play a whistle, then play whistle. Assault whistles in the hands of eejits are no better than recorders. All the best.
Re: What about a recorder? (be it plastic or wood)
" The combined effect of all those instruments makes one feel as Queen Victoria herself might process into the ballroom and dance a step with the gillies."
I doubt if Queen Victoria ever heard a recorder. It had just about disappeared by the time she took the throne and wasn't revived until she was pushing up the daisies.
Marc Duff played recorders with Capercaillie. I wouldn't describe those recordings as "Royal and Imperial Scottish Country Dance Society" in nature.
Re: What about a recorder? (be it plastic or wood)
"I doubt if Queen Victoria ever heard a recorder." I'm sure you're right. Might be the same with PA too. I feel sure she would have doted on all that stuff, had she met up with it; maybe even designed special outfits for the musicians to wear. "Celtic" sessions and recorders...somehow...they make one feel as if the old queen were still around.
Re: What about a recorder? (be it plastic or wood)
Would a plastic thing have been anethema to Queen Victoria? Would she have approved? I'm confident of how HRH would've answered. She, of all people, would've wanted you to buy a wooden one. Keep your "Celtic" session genuine.
Re: What about a recorder? (be it plastic or wood)
"Would a plastic thing have been anethema to Queen Victoria?"
I don't quite get what this 'Queen Victoria' malarkey is all about, unless you are confusing 'Celtic session' with all that 'Highland Society' bowlarks. If Victoria had pined for a 'Celtic session' a quick blast up the jaxie with a bombarde would have cured her once and for all.
The recorder is more connected with Renaissance and Baroque music.
Re: What about a recorder? (be it plastic or wood)
No confusion in my mind. Many of my fellow countrymen are confused about which music is English, Scottish or Irish; what amount of hybridization can be attempted before it gets all amorphous; are perfectly happy playing dumpy approximations of all of those musics, all night long. "Bowlarks" is a good descriptor for that. I'm sure QV would've loved it! Some Americans who desparately want to be part of Irish sessions, will come to a designated Irish session to play recorder. "Sometimes, they are the clueless who would be revolutionaries" -- or words to that effect. (That would Mr. Campin's take.) They're perfectly sweet people for the most part, but clueless.
Re: What about a recorder? (be it plastic or wood)
The main problem with playing recorder in an Irish session ( and go a lesser extent in a "Celtic" session) is that recorders are pitched to make it easy to play in flat keys (C, F etc.) and Irish music tends to be in sharp keys (D, G, etc). A skilled recorder player would have less of a problem, but your average recorder player would be in trouble almost immediately. Speaking as a recorder player, I recommend playing a whistle.
Re: What about a recorder? (be it plastic or wood)
If you want to play irish music, use an instrument that fits in.
Get a tin whistle. If you want to play Irish-style flute, though,
there is no substitute for buying one. The tone production is
difficult; it takes a lot of work and a lot of time. You also need
to get used to the big holes and holding the transverse flute.
Oh yes, and the intonation is another drama you have to work on.
Re: What about a recorder? (be it plastic or wood)
Jack Campin writes: "I don't go to Irish sessions, because of the attitudes I've experienced from people like "Bob himself". Scottish sessions have less bigots with bizarre preconceptions."
If that's really how your brain works, then please, by all means, stay away from Irish sessions. And tell all your like-minded friends. So you won't be bothering us.
Re: What about a recorder? (be it plastic or wood)
I know not a jot about blowing things. Although the ex plays whistle and flute, lots of dribbling.
I do remember an english guy on holiday turning up at a now defunct local session once sporting a coupe of recorders. From what I remember he seemed to get on quite well with a wide range of both I & STM and his recorders didn't sound crap to my ear. If any thing a much sweeter tone than a tin whistle, similar in tone to the ex's very expensive multi changeable bottom bit wooden whistle. Wouldn't have surprised me if those recorders cost a similar amount of €£$ or more.
Re: What about a recorder? (be it plastic or wood)
It's the same issue as you get with fiddles/violins. Most recorder players come to the music with a degree of competence in other musical fields, so they can play most of the notes "easily", but not necessarily the music. This can mean they don't learn to play it "properly." Approach via whistle, pipes, B/c box etc, and you're unlikely to have legacy issues from another style. The C part of the recorder family play very comfortably in D & G, if anything, more easily than in C.
Main single prob is, recorder players use too much tongue!
Re: What about a recorder? (be it plastic or wood)
I've yet to hear good Irish Traditional Music played on a recorder; but I don't see why it couldn't be. How many people are there 'in the tradition' playing the recorder? Until someone who is steeped in the tradition dares to step out of line and take up the recorder in earnest, we'll never know.
For someone learning (Irish) traditional music from scratch, however, I'm inclined to be predictable and say that you'll be making life a lot easier for yourself by getting a whistle - the precedent is there, the teachers are there, the tunes fit the instrument, the instrument fits the tunes.
"I don't go to Irish sessions, because of the attitudes I've experienced from people like "Bob himself". Scottish sessions have less bigots with bizarre preconceptions."
Sessions can sometimes be cliquey - Irish, Scottish or whatever; perhaps you've just been unlucky. Most Irish sessions I've been to judge you on your ability to play* and/or willingness to learn. Granted, the Irish trad scene is, by and large, fairly conservative (If you've got a good thing, why change it?); there may be specific historical reasons why Scottish music is less so.
Re: What about a recorder? (be it plastic or wood)
""I don't go to Irish sessions, because of the attitudes I've experienced from people like "Bob himself". Scottish sessions have less bigots with bizarre preconceptions."
Well, some Scottish sessions, although I think the wording "bigots with bizarre preconceptions" is a bit strong. Some sessions have more of an "anything goes" atmosphere than others. This can be a good or bad thing depending on what you want to get out of it, musically and socially. Horses for courses.
Re: What about a recorder? (be it plastic or wood)
"I've never ever heard Marc Duff play the recorder in sessions, only band arrangements."
As far as I recall, he did back in the mid 80s - when I first heard the band play live. There was a player up in Orkney called Howie Firth who could fairly whack out a pipe tune on the recorder. I think he's in Elgin these days.
Re: What about a recorder? (be it plastic or wood)
"I've never ever heard Marc Duff play the recorder in sessions, only band arrangements."
Me neither, but there's great recorder playing on Capercaillie's albums. Carlos Nuñez also does great stuff with a recorder. It's not *Irish* trad in either case, but it's not that far off - close enough to make me wonder whether the recorder is really as incompatible with the idiom as many seem to think.
Re: What about a recorder? (be it plastic or wood)
I know a very good uilleann piper. One day he grabbed his friends' flute. It had been awhile since he'd played flute. Let's just say he went back to the pipes after one tune.
Re: What about a recorder? (be it plastic or wood)
Wow, I come back after one day to find I’m now an icon of bigotry. At least you spelled my name right.
I’ve played the recorder off and on, mostly off, for 40+ years, but it didn’t occur to me to try some diddley tunes on it until a few years ago. I tried some tunes that I normally played on the whistle and I thought maybe it could work, but didn’t pursue it. I have, however, previously advocated in this forum for giving the recorder a chance, as in fact I did above, but I’ve become less optimistic about its chances for “working out,” where “working out” means some vague notion of satisfying me and being accepted in sessions and performances. The main reason is that every attempt I’ve heard, including my own, has left me feeling that some dimension of genre-appropriate expressivity is missing. Still, I am fond of the instrument and would be delighted to hear it done well.
Re: What about a recorder? (be it plastic or wood)
I do know, because I won't be buying a B chrom harp any time soon. I have to buy malts, you see. As for recorders, there's something a bit pure and piercing about the way they sound that makes 'em grate in diddley music. They sort of lack that bit of rough that Irish music cries out for. Damned hard to put one's finger on it...
(It's dead easy to make a recorder sound as rough as you want - I can easily do stuff that sounds far grittier than I've ever heard any Irish player do, while still not losing the tune. But so what? I can do the same on the whistle, the instrument has nothing to do with it).
Re: What about a recorder? (be it plastic or wood)
Is it not that recorders sound best when playing as an ensemble? I've have plastic & wood descants (treble?) and a wooden tenor and have occasionally used them on recordings but nearly always for harmonized lines. They can always add a pseudo baroque/ sixteenth century flavour, as per the Arts'n'Kraft stylee re-invention of them towards the end of Victoria's throne sitting. They sound great! (despite my playing of them!)
The whistle is plainly best used for Trad Irish melody in unison.
The exception, of course, is whistles in Township Jive.
Re: What about a recorder? (be it plastic or wood)
"as per the Arts'n'Kraft stylee re-invention of them towards the end of Victoria's throne sitting."
A wee bit later than that. Gottlieb Gerlach apparently made them in München around the turn of the 20th century, but in good old Blighty, it was Arnold Dolmetsch who started turning them out in 1919. Victoria popped her clogs in 1901.
It seems they were played in New England well into the 19th century.
Re: What about a recorder? (be it plastic or wood)
As a mass phenomenon, they date from the 1940s, when Schott started making them on an industrial scale. Before that they were only known to a few enthusiasts who could afford hand-made instruments (not quite as expensive as a concertina, but still, not something you'd let schoolkids loose on).
One type of recorder, the csakan, continued in use in central Europe through the 19th century. You can get a modern reproduction from Mollenhauer. It has an extended range comparable to a transverse flute. To me it sounds rather neither-one-thing-nor-the-other-ish. You'd have a very hard time identifying what it was just from a sound sample.
"Maybe they're just a bit too in-tune or something, Jack"
That's a good point. Whistles have very variable tuning - with three whistles and a flute in a session, you'll have four different scales, none of them the same as what the fiddle or melodeon will be using. A recorder can play a wonky scale like that but, given how easy it is to play a dead-on accurate ET or meantone scale, usually the player won't think of it. I try to play in tune with the strings, reeds and voices - the sound blends in. (When playing with a moothie, the accurate intonation means the composite sound has more power in the first two harmonics with the moothie adding colour higher in the spectrum - you get both warmth and carrying power).
There's no law that says a session *has* to play strictly in tune, and I can see how some people might like the effect you get from a pair of off-tuned D whistles. If you find a recorder isn't playing that game, you might be better thinking of it as a wind-powered fiddle.
Re: What about a recorder? (be it plastic or wood)
'TURNING them out!'- I like that, quiet appropriate I suppose since I guess they were made on a lathe!
Thanks for your more accurate fill in- I knew the re-invention of recorders was in the order of a hundred years ago!
Completely by the way and also way off topic: My maternal grandmothrer Flora Clarke nee Cole remembered as a little girl being in the crowd at Victoria's funeral. She was born about 1890 in Clapham, South London.
Re: What about a recorder? (be it plastic or wood)
As empresses go, QV was probably one of the nicer ones. Possibly she has been translated into something of a fuddyduddy by her "handlers." Around here, her name evokes needles formality, cultural and emotional dysfunction; or in plain terms, a lot of stuffiness. It's as if she could not partake of her subjects' culture unless that culture had been safely denatured first. I'm bound to say, there are instruments and styles of playing which suggest more the world of tea receptions in palm courts. All those trills and tongued notes on recorders, the booming cellos and basses, summon up that world more than anything else.
Re: What about a recorder? (be it plastic or wood)
The Victorians were a mixed bag. For expanding the empire and "denaturing" other cultures, they couldn't be beat. But they also did a lot of social welfare stuff and my reading of it is that even the powerful ones were more socially conscious, in a way, than the rich and powerful now. In the parliamentary papers I have read for various projects, the debates seem to be around how most effectively to support the poor, not whether it should be done at all. The systems they put in place were not always great -- there were certainly issues surrounding things like the categories of "able-bodied" verses "infirm" poor -- but I don't see the complete lack of concern for the poor and working classes we see in (especially US conservatives... *ahem*) politics now.
Re: What about a recorder? (be it plastic or wood)
They created the definitive pub facade, too. Be that as it may, haven't you and I compared and contrasted English Torries with American Conservatives before? This feels familiar, some how.
Re: What about a recorder? (be it plastic or wood)
Weejie, it's possible to listen to combinations like that here, however anachronistic it may all be. If that sound summons up visions of Ireland (or Scotland) the person must be imagining a view of a demesne through a window of one of the big houses. I'm sure that crowd has their narrative and their music, too...
Re: What about a recorder? (be it plastic or wood)
" If that sound summons up visions of Ireland (or Scotland) the person must be imagining a view of a demesne through a window of one of the big houses. I'm sure that crowd has their narrative and their music, too... "
Aye, those big hooses where Carolan and Niel Gow after him earned their crust.
Re: What about a recorder? (be it plastic or wood)
In fact one of the first mentions of the word "recorder" in the English language comes from the reign of Mary Queen of Scots. The recorders were the other side of the window - there was a bunch of musicians with all sorts of instruments including recorders playing outside the queen's palace, and she called her guards out to shut them up. The context suggests she went absolutely mental (not that that was unusual).
BTW the latest mention of the recorder in Britain I know of before the revival was in an advert in the back of one of Nathaniel Gow's collections (the Third Repository, I think) - Gow & Shepherd sold them from their Edinburgh shop, in the four sizes you need to make a standard consort. Date, about 1812. This is 50 years after the last published book of pre-revival recorder music in England.
Since the first mention of the instrument in Britain is also Scottish (in The Book of the Howlat), it has a documented history in Scotland about 200 years longer than in England. But it stops about the time Queen Victoria was born.
Re: What about a recorder? (be it plastic or wood)
Don't you suppose, that back at the big "hooses" -- when it was time for O'Carolan or Gow to collect their crusts -- the music downstairs in the kitchens might have been a tad better than the music the dining room crowd listened to? Did the lords and ladies even bother to listen? (Imagine the same treatment Liz Carroll and Doyle were getting at the White House banquet; only the crowd are in wigs and tiaras. See the thread about the suits not getting it.)
Re: What about a recorder? (be it plastic or wood)
If you think that recorders are too in tune, I have recorders that are pretty out of tune if you play them together. But plastic recorders have a cleaner sound than wood. Wood recorders have a weird shill and reedy kind of sound to them. As for me, I don't like the wood ones. As for the idea that they sound like crap when used for Irish music, I think they sound fine, they're not the best, but hey, they work. (I'd go for a B recorder if I'm correct, the one with the C on the very bottom note)
Re: What about a recorder? (be it plastic or wood)
"Don't you suppose, that back at the big "hooses" -- when it was time for O'Carolan or Gow to collect their crusts -- the music downstairs in the kitchens might have been a tad better than the music the dining room crowd listened to?"
You are romanticising (a Victorian legacy, perhaps?). The 19th century was the century when trills and fancy ornamentation was oot the windae. Beethoven was dead before Victoria was ten years old - and Beethoven was getting into dynamics- things were changing. Chances are the fiddles in your local session are not baroque instruments - or if they are , the necks will have been replaced with longer ones and with a steeper angle. This design was coming to be the norm in the 19th century - baroque instruments wouldn't be heard above the concertinas. Ah, concertinas - Mr Wheatstone was a creature of the 19th century. His English concertina was invented in that century and without it, the Anglo German model would likely not have developed. Mr Robert Clarke also started manufacturing his 'tin whistles' in the 19th century. The uilleann pipes were still being developed - the full complement of regulators appearing in the 19th century.
Those parlour sessions in the days of Carolan and later days of Gow would have a very different sound than your session of today.
Who knows how they would have sounded?
If anything, dear Queen Vicky's era was the era of those session instruments coming into fruition (a notable exception being the simple system flute - Herr Böhm started messing about with them in the 19th century).
Perhaps your 'Celtic session' chums are nearer the mark than you are?
Re: What about a recorder? (be it plastic or wood)
"Nearer the mark; or nearer feel of a debutante cotillion orchestra out of ages past? "
Possibly not even mentioning Queen Vicky. Most of the type of person you seem to be describing that i have come across are imagining themselves to be in the English court of Henry VIII.
That's why I suggested confusion on your part, regarding the monarch.
Crumhorns at the ready!
Re: What about a recorder? (be it plastic or wood)
I wouldn't know which end to load. True enough, I am unable to put the recorder in its correct spot on the time line. That was never my point. Leaving aside arguments about the mechanics of tone and playing, I feel recorders do not fit Irish music because of another kind of contextual difference. The sound of a recorder summons up images of a bunch of folks out of...a different...(how to put this charitably)...narative. If a person does not have these images in their head, and thinks the recorder does not clash in any way, then play the recorder at your session. You have my blessing -- unless you're thinking pulling this stunt at a session I go to. Try one of the other nights.
What about a recorder? (be it plastic or wood)
What about a recorder? (be it plastic or wood)
How good is a recorder nowadays? I don't know very much about them but it seems they can get more notes than a regular tin whistle, they can get some sharps we can't find in your everyday D companion.
I don't have enough money for a REAL flute, so I was thinking about picking up some plastic recorder to learn on it and going further after all the trials.
But .. is it recommended? How much of a difference it is?
# Posted on April 25th 2011 by mellowBreez
Re: What about a recorder? (be it plastic or wood)
If they sounded good, you'd hear people playing them at sessions, wouldn't you? Unfortunately, they sound terrible for this music. They're great if you're playing the Brandenburgs or something.
# Posted on April 25th 2011 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: What about a recorder? (be it plastic or wood)
If you're interested in playing a keyed flute, but don't have the money, you can usually rent a silver flute from the music store.
# Posted on April 25th 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: What about a recorder? (be it plastic or wood)
So that means the recorder is an instrument better suited for classical play and your everyday song like Christmas stuff and so?
Well, it's nice to know, there's never enough wind instruments in my heart :D (though quite sad that I can't play irish songs with a recorder)
# Posted on April 25th 2011 by mellowBreez
Re: What about a recorder? (be it plastic or wood)
If recorders had been really cheap and plentiful at the right time, they might be part of the standard arsenal today, but we’ll never know. Consensus has it that the sound doesn’t work and probably never would. I’m not 100% convinced – maybe 97%.
Try it, if you want to, but also try a whistle and listen to some traditional players.
# Posted on April 25th 2011 by Bob himself
Re: What about a recorder? (be it plastic or wood)
It's probably more to do with the fingering than the sound.
I have a Jon Swayne blackwood whistle that sounds nearer to a recorder than a metal whistle.
# Posted on April 25th 2011 by Weejie
Re: What about a recorder? (be it plastic or wood)
Plastic recorders are generally better than cheap whistles at the same price point. Knowing what to do with it counts for more than any expensive subtleties of construction. I use one of the cheap transparent Yamahas more than any other instrument, partly because I rather enjoy confounding people's expectations when I point out that what they think (after hearing me play it) must be some kind of exotic Celtic flute handed to me by a samite-clad arm emerging from a lake is, in fact, something they could buy from any music shop for about 8 quid. (I carry a much more expensive one in my bag, but usually go through a session without needing to get it out).
However. I don't go to Irish sessions, because of the attitudes I've experienced from people like "Bob himself". Scottish sessions have less bigots with bizarre preconceptions. So if you get one, learn some Scottish tunes on it.
One kind of recorder that has unique advantages is the Susato wide-bore G alto (or for even more overpowering effect its partner the G sopranino).
http://www.susato.com/konakart/SelectCat.do?catId=179&prodsFound=9&category=Wide-Bore+Recorders
Its fingering is closely parallel to the Highland pipe, and like the Highland pipe it's very strong at the low end. So you can use it to play pipe tunes with your fingers doing similar things to what they'd be doing on the pipe chanter, and with similar dynamic balance. (The ElfSong Chanter Whistle would in theory be another way to get the same effect, but unfortunately they don't make them in the usual key for playing GHB tunes in sessions).
The Susato G recorder also lets you do most of the same stuff you could use a G whistle for - I used to have an Overton low G and got rid of it (effectively, gave it away free) when I realized it was just gathering dust; the Susato was far more flexible, wasn't a risk for smashing my teeth with its beak and didn't clog up in milliseconds with condensation if you started it cold.
Learning a slightly different fingering system is an irrelevance except to the very, very lazy. Recorders are a lot more similar to whistles than uilleann or Northumbrian pipes are.
# Posted on April 25th 2011 by Jack Campin
Re: What about a recorder? (be it plastic or wood)
If you don't have enough money for a REAL flute, a cheap plastic flute would be better than a cheap plastic recorder. If you want to play any instrument, get a decent one. Cheap plastic recorders are not very good, which is why they have a bad reputation. I have a Dolmetsch wooden recorder that sounds fluty, but I wouldn't recommend spending your money on one if you want to play the flute. The fingering is different.
# Posted on April 25th 2011 by gam
Re: What about a recorder? (be it plastic or wood)
If it's a flute you want, get a flute. If you haven't played too many flutes, but have played some whistle &/or recorder, all the more reason to start playing a standard open-holed model. Doug Tipple's 3 piece or Hammy Hamilton's don't cost very much.
# Posted on April 25th 2011 by Ben Steen
Ben Jaber playing 3-piece Tipple w/lip plate;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvAPt6V3GDY
http://sites.google.com/site/dougsflutes/
http://www.hamiltonflutes.com/practice.html
# Posted on April 25th 2011 by Ben Steen
...
"Yes, this headjoint has the wedge." The one Ben Jaber's playing ...
# Posted on April 25th 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: What about a recorder? (be it plastic or wood)
In the English sessions I go to both recorders and whistles are used, and they both work well in that ensemble. In any kind of session I don't mind which one I hear (recorder, whistle or variety of flute) as long as it is well-played, clean-sounding - and in tune.
# Posted on April 25th 2011 by Trevor Jennings
Re: What about a recorder? (be it plastic or wood)
Lazyhound, plastic or wood?
# Posted on April 25th 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: What about a recorder? (be it plastic or wood)
Nothing says "Royal and Imperial Scottish Country Dance Society" like a recorder -- after the cellos, basses and PAs, of course. That's why the recorder has pride of place -- after the cellos, basses and PAs -- in an RISCDS orchestra. The combined effect of all those instruments makes one feel as Queen Victoria herself might process into the ballroom and dance a step with the gillies. If your session is advertised as what folks here in the USA call a "Celtic" session, no one is likely to get upset at your tootling on a recorder. If your session is acknowledged to be an Irish session, and if you can actually play a whistle, then play whistle. Assault whistles in the hands of eejits are no better than recorders. All the best.
# Posted on April 26th 2011 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: What about a recorder? (be it plastic or wood)
" The combined effect of all those instruments makes one feel as Queen Victoria herself might process into the ballroom and dance a step with the gillies."
I doubt if Queen Victoria ever heard a recorder. It had just about disappeared by the time she took the throne and wasn't revived until she was pushing up the daisies.
Marc Duff played recorders with Capercaillie. I wouldn't describe those recordings as "Royal and Imperial Scottish Country Dance Society" in nature.
# Posted on April 26th 2011 by Weejie
Re: What about a recorder? (be it plastic or wood)
"I have a Dolmetsch wooden recorder that sounds fluty"
They don't. They sound like garbage.
Dolmetsch never made any factory recorder worth its weight as fuel.
# Posted on April 26th 2011 by Jack Campin
Re: What about a recorder? (be it plastic or wood)
"I doubt if Queen Victoria ever heard a recorder." I'm sure you're right. Might be the same with PA too. I feel sure she would have doted on all that stuff, had she met up with it; maybe even designed special outfits for the musicians to wear. "Celtic" sessions and recorders...somehow...they make one feel as if the old queen were still around.
# Posted on April 26th 2011 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: What about a recorder? (be it plastic or wood)
Would a plastic thing have been anethema to Queen Victoria? Would she have approved? I'm confident of how HRH would've answered. She, of all people, would've wanted you to buy a wooden one. Keep your "Celtic" session genuine.
# Posted on April 26th 2011 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: What about a recorder? (be it plastic or wood)
"Would a plastic thing have been anethema to Queen Victoria?"
I don't quite get what this 'Queen Victoria' malarkey is all about, unless you are confusing 'Celtic session' with all that 'Highland Society' bowlarks. If Victoria had pined for a 'Celtic session' a quick blast up the jaxie with a bombarde would have cured her once and for all.
The recorder is more connected with Renaissance and Baroque music.
# Posted on April 26th 2011 by Weejie
Re: What about a recorder? (be it plastic or wood)
No confusion in my mind. Many of my fellow countrymen are confused about which music is English, Scottish or Irish; what amount of hybridization can be attempted before it gets all amorphous; are perfectly happy playing dumpy approximations of all of those musics, all night long. "Bowlarks" is a good descriptor for that. I'm sure QV would've loved it! Some Americans who desparately want to be part of Irish sessions, will come to a designated Irish session to play recorder. "Sometimes, they are the clueless who would be revolutionaries" -- or words to that effect. (That would Mr. Campin's take.) They're perfectly sweet people for the most part, but clueless.
# Posted on April 26th 2011 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: What about a recorder? (be it plastic or wood)
The main problem with playing recorder in an Irish session ( and go a lesser extent in a "Celtic" session) is that recorders are pitched to make it easy to play in flat keys (C, F etc.) and Irish music tends to be in sharp keys (D, G, etc). A skilled recorder player would have less of a problem, but your average recorder player would be in trouble almost immediately. Speaking as a recorder player, I recommend playing a whistle.
# Posted on April 26th 2011 by Tracie
Re: What about a recorder? (be it plastic or wood)
If you want to play irish music, use an instrument that fits in.
Get a tin whistle. If you want to play Irish-style flute, though,
there is no substitute for buying one. The tone production is
difficult; it takes a lot of work and a lot of time. You also need
to get used to the big holes and holding the transverse flute.
Oh yes, and the intonation is another drama you have to work on.
# Posted on April 26th 2011 by Hup
Re: What about a recorder? (be it plastic or wood)
Jack Campin writes: "I don't go to Irish sessions, because of the attitudes I've experienced from people like "Bob himself". Scottish sessions have less bigots with bizarre preconceptions."
If that's really how your brain works, then please, by all means, stay away from Irish sessions. And tell all your like-minded friends. So you won't be bothering us.
# Posted on April 26th 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: What about a recorder? (be it plastic or wood)
Hey, I was much more of a bigot about it than Bob was....
# Posted on April 26th 2011 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: What about a recorder? (be it plastic or wood)
I know not a jot about blowing things. Although the ex plays whistle and flute, lots of dribbling.
I do remember an english guy on holiday turning up at a now defunct local session once sporting a coupe of recorders. From what I remember he seemed to get on quite well with a wide range of both I & STM and his recorders didn't sound crap to my ear. If any thing a much sweeter tone than a tin whistle, similar in tone to the ex's very expensive multi changeable bottom bit wooden whistle. Wouldn't have surprised me if those recorders cost a similar amount of €£$ or more.
# Posted on April 26th 2011 by Solidmahog
Re: What about a recorder? (be it plastic or wood)
It's the same issue as you get with fiddles/violins. Most recorder players come to the music with a degree of competence in other musical fields, so they can play most of the notes "easily", but not necessarily the music. This can mean they don't learn to play it "properly." Approach via whistle, pipes, B/c box etc, and you're unlikely to have legacy issues from another style. The C part of the recorder family play very comfortably in D & G, if anything, more easily than in C.
Main single prob is, recorder players use too much tongue!
# Posted on April 26th 2011 by TomB-R
Re: What about a recorder? (be it plastic or wood)
If you want to play Irish traditional music, buy a whistle.
# Posted on April 26th 2011 by Kenny
Re: What about a recorder? (be it plastic or wood)
I've yet to hear good Irish Traditional Music played on a recorder; but I don't see why it couldn't be. How many people are there 'in the tradition' playing the recorder? Until someone who is steeped in the tradition dares to step out of line and take up the recorder in earnest, we'll never know.
For someone learning (Irish) traditional music from scratch, however, I'm inclined to be predictable and say that you'll be making life a lot easier for yourself by getting a whistle - the precedent is there, the teachers are there, the tunes fit the instrument, the instrument fits the tunes.
"I don't go to Irish sessions, because of the attitudes I've experienced from people like "Bob himself". Scottish sessions have less bigots with bizarre preconceptions."
Sessions can sometimes be cliquey - Irish, Scottish or whatever; perhaps you've just been unlucky. Most Irish sessions I've been to judge you on your ability to play* and/or willingness to learn. Granted, the Irish trad scene is, by and large, fairly conservative (If you've got a good thing, why change it?); there may be specific historical reasons why Scottish music is less so.
# Posted on April 26th 2011 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: What about a recorder? (be it plastic or wood)
""I don't go to Irish sessions, because of the attitudes I've experienced from people like "Bob himself". Scottish sessions have less bigots with bizarre preconceptions."
Well, some Scottish sessions, although I think the wording "bigots with bizarre preconceptions" is a bit strong. Some sessions have more of an "anything goes" atmosphere than others. This can be a good or bad thing depending on what you want to get out of it, musically and socially. Horses for courses.
# Posted on April 26th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: What about a recorder? (be it plastic or wood)
I've never ever heard Marc Duff play the recorder in sessions, only band arrangements.
# Posted on April 26th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: What about a recorder? (be it plastic or wood)
"I've never ever heard Marc Duff play the recorder in sessions, only band arrangements."
As far as I recall, he did back in the mid 80s - when I first heard the band play live. There was a player up in Orkney called Howie Firth who could fairly whack out a pipe tune on the recorder. I think he's in Elgin these days.
# Posted on April 26th 2011 by Weejie
Re: What about a recorder? (be it plastic or wood)
I can't speak for the mid-80s. I was only about two and not getting out to many session. :P
# Posted on April 26th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: What about a recorder? (be it plastic or wood)
" I was only about two and not getting out to many session. :P" TSS
Thats a childish excuse.
# Posted on April 26th 2011 by Solidmahog
Re: What about a recorder? (be it plastic or wood)
"I've never ever heard Marc Duff play the recorder in sessions, only band arrangements."
Me neither, but there's great recorder playing on Capercaillie's albums. Carlos Nuñez also does great stuff with a recorder. It's not *Irish* trad in either case, but it's not that far off - close enough to make me wonder whether the recorder is really as incompatible with the idiom as many seem to think.
# Posted on April 26th 2011 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: What about a recorder? (be it plastic or wood)
The best musicians can play whatever they like.
# Posted on April 26th 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: What about a recorder? (be it plastic or wood)
The rest of us do best when we make it easy on ourselves.
# Posted on April 26th 2011 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: What about a recorder? (be it plastic or wood)
Like with uilleann pipes?
# Posted on April 26th 2011 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: What about a recorder? (be it plastic or wood)
I know a very good uilleann piper. One day he grabbed his friends' flute. It had been awhile since he'd played flute. Let's just say he went back to the pipes after one tune.
# Posted on April 26th 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: What about a recorder? (be it plastic or wood)
Smoker?
# Posted on April 26th 2011 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: What about a recorder? (be it plastic or wood)
"The best musicians can play whatever they like.....
The rest of us do best when we make it easy on ourselves."
That more or less sums it up.
# Posted on April 26th 2011 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: What about a recorder? (be it plastic or wood)
Wow, I come back after one day to find I’m now an icon of bigotry. At least you spelled my name right.
I’ve played the recorder off and on, mostly off, for 40+ years, but it didn’t occur to me to try some diddley tunes on it until a few years ago. I tried some tunes that I normally played on the whistle and I thought maybe it could work, but didn’t pursue it. I have, however, previously advocated in this forum for giving the recorder a chance, as in fact I did above, but I’ve become less optimistic about its chances for “working out,” where “working out” means some vague notion of satisfying me and being accepted in sessions and performances. The main reason is that every attempt I’ve heard, including my own, has left me feeling that some dimension of genre-appropriate expressivity is missing. Still, I am fond of the instrument and would be delighted to hear it done well.
# Posted on April 26th 2011 by Bob himself
Re: What about a recorder? (be it plastic or wood)
Wooden ones smell nicer when you burn them.
Don't worry, I'm just trolling - couldn't resist that one...
I'm sure constructive advice has been given. I hope so.
# Posted on April 26th 2011 by nicholas
Re: What about a recorder? (be it plastic or wood)
"The rest of us do best when we make it easy on ourselves."
Like playing tunes in E flat on a B chromatic harmonica for example?
# Posted on April 27th 2011 by Steve Shaw
Re: What about a recorder? (be it plastic or wood)
Exactly like that, except it would be in E flat on a C, D on a B. Works for me. Might work for you, too, you never know.
# Posted on April 27th 2011 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: What about a recorder? (be it plastic or wood)
I do know, because I won't be buying a B chrom harp any time soon. I have to buy malts, you see. As for recorders, there's something a bit pure and piercing about the way they sound that makes 'em grate in diddley music. They sort of lack that bit of rough that Irish music cries out for. Damned hard to put one's finger on it...
# Posted on April 27th 2011 by Steve Shaw
Re: What about a recorder? (be it plastic or wood)
Okay we'll keep it for this kind of music then:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QdFu11gdMZQ
(It's dead easy to make a recorder sound as rough as you want - I can easily do stuff that sounds far grittier than I've ever heard any Irish player do, while still not losing the tune. But so what? I can do the same on the whistle, the instrument has nothing to do with it).
# Posted on April 27th 2011 by Jack Campin
Re: What about a recorder? (be it plastic or wood)
And the harmonica wars continue, spilling onto yet another field of battle!!!
# Posted on April 27th 2011 by AlBrown
Re: What about a recorder? (be it plastic or wood)
Is it not that recorders sound best when playing as an ensemble? I've have plastic & wood descants (treble?) and a wooden tenor and have occasionally used them on recordings but nearly always for harmonized lines. They can always add a pseudo baroque/ sixteenth century flavour, as per the Arts'n'Kraft stylee re-invention of them towards the end of Victoria's throne sitting. They sound great! (despite my playing of them!)
The whistle is plainly best used for Trad Irish melody in unison.
The exception, of course, is whistles in Township Jive.
# Posted on April 27th 2011 by yhaalhouse
Re: What about a recorder? (be it plastic or wood)
Maybe they're just a bit too in-tune or something, Jack.
# Posted on April 27th 2011 by Steve Shaw
Off Topic: Kwela links
In ref to my posting above in case anyone is unfamiliar with Township Jive/ Kwela/ whistle music.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1EIQmnRD07U
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQg5LLT3ANs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9FN_84JPmks&feature=BFa&list=PL1F01F18248150E52&index=62
# Posted on April 27th 2011 by yhaalhouse
Re: What about a recorder? (be it plastic or wood)
"as per the Arts'n'Kraft stylee re-invention of them towards the end of Victoria's throne sitting."
A wee bit later than that. Gottlieb Gerlach apparently made them in München around the turn of the 20th century, but in good old Blighty, it was Arnold Dolmetsch who started turning them out in 1919. Victoria popped her clogs in 1901.
It seems they were played in New England well into the 19th century.
# Posted on April 27th 2011 by Weejie
Re: What about a recorder? (be it plastic or wood)
As a mass phenomenon, they date from the 1940s, when Schott started making them on an industrial scale. Before that they were only known to a few enthusiasts who could afford hand-made instruments (not quite as expensive as a concertina, but still, not something you'd let schoolkids loose on).
One type of recorder, the csakan, continued in use in central Europe through the 19th century. You can get a modern reproduction from Mollenhauer. It has an extended range comparable to a transverse flute. To me it sounds rather neither-one-thing-nor-the-other-ish. You'd have a very hard time identifying what it was just from a sound sample.
"Maybe they're just a bit too in-tune or something, Jack"
That's a good point. Whistles have very variable tuning - with three whistles and a flute in a session, you'll have four different scales, none of them the same as what the fiddle or melodeon will be using. A recorder can play a wonky scale like that but, given how easy it is to play a dead-on accurate ET or meantone scale, usually the player won't think of it. I try to play in tune with the strings, reeds and voices - the sound blends in. (When playing with a moothie, the accurate intonation means the composite sound has more power in the first two harmonics with the moothie adding colour higher in the spectrum - you get both warmth and carrying power).
There's no law that says a session *has* to play strictly in tune, and I can see how some people might like the effect you get from a pair of off-tuned D whistles. If you find a recorder isn't playing that game, you might be better thinking of it as a wind-powered fiddle.
# Posted on April 27th 2011 by Jack Campin
Re: What about a recorder? (be it plastic or wood)
'TURNING them out!'- I like that, quiet appropriate I suppose since I guess they were made on a lathe!
Thanks for your more accurate fill in- I knew the re-invention of recorders was in the order of a hundred years ago!
Completely by the way and also way off topic: My maternal grandmothrer Flora Clarke nee Cole remembered as a little girl being in the crowd at Victoria's funeral. She was born about 1890 in Clapham, South London.
# Posted on April 27th 2011 by yhaalhouse
Re: What about a recorder? (be it plastic or wood)
AQ, yes he is. But it was his embouchure, or lack of, that had him laughing at himself. He made it through the tune.
# Posted on April 27th 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: What about a recorder? (be it plastic or wood)
I think the opheclide was Victoria's favourite:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUS-NJ8nSnI&feature=related
# Posted on April 27th 2011 by McMandolin
Re: What about a recorder? (be it plastic or wood)
Queen Victoria's musical preferences were for the piano:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2004/jul/31/arts.artsnews1
the Highland pipes:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-south-scotland-11864504
and who knows, maybe the sitar later in life:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-12670110
If you read her diaries and letters, she comes across as a creature of her time, but friendly, unpretentious and not an idiot.
# Posted on April 28th 2011 by Jack Campin
Re: What about a recorder? (be it plastic or wood)
Kwela is awesome, really shows a whole new dimension of what the lowly whistle is capable of!!!
# Posted on April 28th 2011 by AlBrown
Re: What about a recorder? (be it plastic or wood)
As empresses go, QV was probably one of the nicer ones. Possibly she has been translated into something of a fuddyduddy by her "handlers." Around here, her name evokes needles formality, cultural and emotional dysfunction; or in plain terms, a lot of stuffiness. It's as if she could not partake of her subjects' culture unless that culture had been safely denatured first. I'm bound to say, there are instruments and styles of playing which suggest more the world of tea receptions in palm courts. All those trills and tongued notes on recorders, the booming cellos and basses, summon up that world more than anything else.
# Posted on April 28th 2011 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: What about a recorder? (be it plastic or wood)
NEEDLESS formality
# Posted on April 28th 2011 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: What about a recorder? (be it plastic or wood)
The Victorians were a mixed bag. For expanding the empire and "denaturing" other cultures, they couldn't be beat. But they also did a lot of social welfare stuff and my reading of it is that even the powerful ones were more socially conscious, in a way, than the rich and powerful now. In the parliamentary papers I have read for various projects, the debates seem to be around how most effectively to support the poor, not whether it should be done at all. The systems they put in place were not always great -- there were certainly issues surrounding things like the categories of "able-bodied" verses "infirm" poor -- but I don't see the complete lack of concern for the poor and working classes we see in (especially US conservatives... *ahem*) politics now.
# Posted on April 28th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: What about a recorder? (be it plastic or wood)
"All those trills and tongued notes on recorders, the booming cellos and basses, summon up that world more than anything else. "
Definitely confused.....
Wrong century.
# Posted on April 28th 2011 by Weejie
Re: What about a recorder? (be it plastic or wood)
They created the definitive pub facade, too. Be that as it may, haven't you and I compared and contrasted English Torries with American Conservatives before? This feels familiar, some how.
# Posted on April 28th 2011 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: What about a recorder? (be it plastic or wood)
Weejie, it's possible to listen to combinations like that here, however anachronistic it may all be. If that sound summons up visions of Ireland (or Scotland) the person must be imagining a view of a demesne through a window of one of the big houses. I'm sure that crowd has their narrative and their music, too...
# Posted on April 28th 2011 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: What about a recorder? (be it plastic or wood)
" If that sound summons up visions of Ireland (or Scotland) the person must be imagining a view of a demesne through a window of one of the big houses. I'm sure that crowd has their narrative and their music, too... "
Aye, those big hooses where Carolan and Niel Gow after him earned their crust.
# Posted on April 28th 2011 by Weejie
Re: What about a recorder? (be it plastic or wood)
In fact one of the first mentions of the word "recorder" in the English language comes from the reign of Mary Queen of Scots. The recorders were the other side of the window - there was a bunch of musicians with all sorts of instruments including recorders playing outside the queen's palace, and she called her guards out to shut them up. The context suggests she went absolutely mental (not that that was unusual).
BTW the latest mention of the recorder in Britain I know of before the revival was in an advert in the back of one of Nathaniel Gow's collections (the Third Repository, I think) - Gow & Shepherd sold them from their Edinburgh shop, in the four sizes you need to make a standard consort. Date, about 1812. This is 50 years after the last published book of pre-revival recorder music in England.
Since the first mention of the instrument in Britain is also Scottish (in The Book of the Howlat), it has a documented history in Scotland about 200 years longer than in England. But it stops about the time Queen Victoria was born.
# Posted on April 28th 2011 by Jack Campin
Re: What about a recorder? (be it plastic or wood)
Don't you suppose, that back at the big "hooses" -- when it was time for O'Carolan or Gow to collect their crusts -- the music downstairs in the kitchens might have been a tad better than the music the dining room crowd listened to? Did the lords and ladies even bother to listen? (Imagine the same treatment Liz Carroll and Doyle were getting at the White House banquet; only the crowd are in wigs and tiaras. See the thread about the suits not getting it.)
# Posted on April 28th 2011 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: What about a recorder? (be it plastic or wood)
If you think that recorders are too in tune, I have recorders that are pretty out of tune if you play them together. But plastic recorders have a cleaner sound than wood. Wood recorders have a weird shill and reedy kind of sound to them. As for me, I don't like the wood ones. As for the idea that they sound like crap when used for Irish music, I think they sound fine, they're not the best, but hey, they work. (I'd go for a B recorder if I'm correct, the one with the C on the very bottom note)
# Posted on April 28th 2011 by an fidleir
Re: What about a recorder? (be it plastic or wood)
soprano that is.
# Posted on April 28th 2011 by an fidleir
Re: What about a recorder? (be it plastic or wood)
"Don't you suppose, that back at the big "hooses" -- when it was time for O'Carolan or Gow to collect their crusts -- the music downstairs in the kitchens might have been a tad better than the music the dining room crowd listened to?"
You are romanticising (a Victorian legacy, perhaps?). The 19th century was the century when trills and fancy ornamentation was oot the windae. Beethoven was dead before Victoria was ten years old - and Beethoven was getting into dynamics- things were changing. Chances are the fiddles in your local session are not baroque instruments - or if they are , the necks will have been replaced with longer ones and with a steeper angle. This design was coming to be the norm in the 19th century - baroque instruments wouldn't be heard above the concertinas. Ah, concertinas - Mr Wheatstone was a creature of the 19th century. His English concertina was invented in that century and without it, the Anglo German model would likely not have developed. Mr Robert Clarke also started manufacturing his 'tin whistles' in the 19th century. The uilleann pipes were still being developed - the full complement of regulators appearing in the 19th century.
Those parlour sessions in the days of Carolan and later days of Gow would have a very different sound than your session of today.
Who knows how they would have sounded?
If anything, dear Queen Vicky's era was the era of those session instruments coming into fruition (a notable exception being the simple system flute - Herr Böhm started messing about with them in the 19th century).
Perhaps your 'Celtic session' chums are nearer the mark than you are?
# Posted on April 28th 2011 by Weejie
Re: What about a recorder? (be it plastic or wood)
Nearer the mark; or nearer feel of a debutante cotillion orchestra out of ages past?
# Posted on April 28th 2011 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: What about a recorder? (be it plastic or wood)
nearer THE feel
# Posted on April 28th 2011 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: What about a recorder? (be it plastic or wood)
"Nearer the mark; or nearer feel of a debutante cotillion orchestra out of ages past? "
Possibly not even mentioning Queen Vicky. Most of the type of person you seem to be describing that i have come across are imagining themselves to be in the English court of Henry VIII.
That's why I suggested confusion on your part, regarding the monarch.
Crumhorns at the ready!
# Posted on April 28th 2011 by Weejie
Re: What about a recorder? (be it plastic or wood)
I wouldn't know which end to load. True enough, I am unable to put the recorder in its correct spot on the time line. That was never my point. Leaving aside arguments about the mechanics of tone and playing, I feel recorders do not fit Irish music because of another kind of contextual difference. The sound of a recorder summons up images of a bunch of folks out of...a different...(how to put this charitably)...narative. If a person does not have these images in their head, and thinks the recorder does not clash in any way, then play the recorder at your session. You have my blessing -- unless you're thinking pulling this stunt at a session I go to. Try one of the other nights.
# Posted on April 29th 2011 by Atahualpa Quigley