Just been watching a few Liz Carroll clips - can't say that her playing is the most appealing to my ears, but what struck me more about this clip is the complete and utter failure of the audience to 'get' what they were hearing.
Not sure whether that is a salutory reminder about what an inward-looking little bubble it is that we all inhabit (I refrained from using the word 'community') or just how dulled the senses of the suits surrounding Power actually are...
I saw this clip in 2009 and I remember wondering at that time already why these two were playing at this dinner at all - because Liz Carroll is from Chicago, as she says, and because this is meant to be a connection to Obama in some way? The suits and the power brokers obviously have other things on their minds, not surprisingly - as you can see in their faces. I rather think that this musical interlude was exceptionally badly chosen in terms of place and time - also by the musicians themselves. In surroundings such as these it is completely impossible for any kind of atmosphere to develop. Why weren´t they part of an evening concert, open air maybe? Just anything else would have been better than this! So there is no reason to worry about any "inward-looking bubble" (which, I think, we do NOT inhabit); this clip shows in an exemplary way what happens when two worlds - alien to each other - collide.
I don't know... the tracks on Frank Gavin's latest CD recorded at a DC government function attended by O'bama and his right hand man fighting Joe Biden sounds like the audience was pretty into it - at one point you can hear one of them loudly "HUP" - sounds like that audience was pretty into it --
Now the reaction traditional Irish music receives in China - that would be an interesting youtube vid --
>>So there is no reason to worry about any "inward-looking bubble"
Not 'worrying' about it - just have been giving some thought to the relationships that 'special interest groups' have to the wider world. For example, the fact that so many people we meet, whether virtually or in reality, play a trad-related instrument totally distorts the true statistical unusualness of people who do so - with the possible exception of the 'motherlands' of the music. In my perception, the mandolin is hardly an unusual instrument, but the reactions I normally get when people find out that I play it would suggest otherwise. Even more so for my wife and her GHB.
Likewise, the paradigm of this music is in so many ways totally alien to people from other walks of life/ genres of music that we can so easily forget why so many newcomes struggle with it. The non-reaction of those Suits challenged my assumption that just about everyone responds intuitively to these rhythms and tunes when they hear them...
You are at a reception. You know nothing about Irish Music, Maybe you might recognize Danny Boy. or The Fields of Athenry. A fiddle player and a guitar player come on and start to play a selection of fast reels. Is she any good? . I suppose she is but the music she is playing sounds all the same and seems to go on forever. I start to get bored.
I'm at the same reception and the last time I wore a suit was at a funeral ten years ago. However I know a lot about Irish music and I am even aware of the fiddler's reputation. She plays a selection of reels. I haven't heard them before and they seem to blend into one another I'm having trouble trying to separate them remember how they go. She changes key and I know' she has changed to another tune. I am now also starting to get bored.
What a shame she didn't start with something slow and then break into the fast stuff.
Musicians are just the hired entertainment to those fools stuffing their faces. I bet Liz and John could do a better job of running the country. And play at the same time.
I was hesitating to say so, given the esteem Liz Carroll seems to be held in on here, but her choice of tunes didn't seem very well judged, and I don't find that guitar playing very sympathetic either.
A case of someone too specialised mis-judging her audience? That said, I was still surprised by the level of indifference of the audience.
Will do so Solidmahog - but presumably there is still enough latitiude allowed in the Fascist Republic of Mustard Board for people to express their personal preferences?
Maybe the clips I have been watching aren't representative, and I need to look/listen further - but from what I have seen so far, I am just not that keen on her sound or choice of tunes.
"I bet Liz and John could do a better job of running the country."
Would Liz keep reminding the electorate as to what part of Ireland her parents came from?
I wouldn't expect everybody to be giving it laldy on the dance floor. Most of the folk seem to be acknowledging the presence of the duo - just three guys having a blether later on seemed indifferent . |Who knows, they may have been discussing the pulse, or where Liz is placing her rolls - I doubt it. Compared to some Scottish audiences when trad music is being played, I'd say that White House audience was reasonably attentive.
I mind a certain maths teacher from St Roch's Academy ( with a musical connection) constantly blethering during a Chieftains concert in Glasgow. I came close to throttling him.
As for the dog-and-pony show, of course Liz is there because she shares Chicago roots with Obama. He gets to show off Irish and Chicago at the same time. Double Bonus Points Score. The rest of them are there only because they have to be seen there.
"I was surprised by the indifference of the audience"
Perhaps some perspective is in order. My guess is by month's end, that crowd has sat through 26+ formal lunches and dinners with everything from Tibetan throat singing to hula dancers. I would imagine their bums are completely flattened and ears dulled after a mere three months in office. Formality can crush the life out of music regardless of the genre.
I saw that clip ages ago and we thought it was a good laugh. I wouldn't bother overanalyzing it. I felt sorry for Liz and John -- it looked like the world's most awkward gig. You got to give the Administration credit, though -- they found tasteful, highly respected trad players for the St. Pat's Day Gig; not the usual schmaltzy sh*te singing of "Danny Boy" which every true blooded Irish-American in the room would have related to but it still would have been sh*t.
That was a very uncomfortable room. Politics is so much pomp and posturing it's a shame someone tried to marry it with entertainment even for an occasion. I don't think anyone there was even supposed to be listening, only attending. Reminds me of lunch at the Elks Club with my grandparents.
For a lot of the time the fiddle and guitar seemed to be grinding like tectonic plates on a first date. Towards the end it seemed to gell better. I get the impression that Liz Carrol is (musically) very idiosyncratic and an accompanist who hasn't known her for yonks is likely not to get her groove.
Who'd be a suit? I'm glad so many do, it lets me off from having to be one out of noblesse oblige. I suppose half the time these people are trying to angle their way into the limelight in whichever way is advantageous to them, and the other half they're trying to keep their heads down and be quite indistinguishable from each other so that no-one can get a handle on them.
This will have been the case here. A whoop or a wolf-whistle would have been recorded and the perpetrator's contorted facial features captured in a still for the world and his wife to contemplate and judge America, the Obama administration, etc., by. (An awful lot of people haven't got a life...)
The most embarrassing thing about this video is the two middle-aged people (male & female) eating green shamrock sugar cookies in the front row, while not even making eye contact with the performers.
What I do love about this video is Liz Carroll's grace and dignity, if she was disappointed with the audiences' reception, she doesn't show it! She's blasting away the tunes with passion and expression anyways! (Same goes for John as well).
I was shocked Obama wasn't at least bobbing his head up and down, I thought he had a reputation as a music lover. But then again maybe it was difficult for him to enjoy the tunes since the camera man was right in his face the whole time!
Solidmahog said, "The suits don't get it..., they never do." Which is a brilliant comment. That's totally why they are called suits! Otherwise we would call them gentleman.
P.S. Thanks for the video ian, very interesting stuff.
I'm sure the party after was much more comfortable. Obama shaking hands with Liz Carroll was probably letting her know he'd bring the Jameson's ~ & there'd be no photographers.
"The most embarrassing thing about this video is the two middle-aged people (male & female) eating green shamrock sugar cookies in the front row, while not even making eye contact with the performers. "
Eye contact would have been rather difficult, as Liz Carroll hardly takes her eyes off the fiddle and John Doyle hardly takes his eyes off Liz Carroll. Is the age of the couple relevant?
Weejie, you are correct. The age is irrelevant, now that I think about it, this described just about everyone in the room, so it's not even helpful if it differentiated anything about them. Plus, I should have written "They hardly look in the general direction of the music-making."
BTW, the couple at the front at the White House do look for more than a moment at the duo - can't say whether they are attempting to make eye contact. The camera is in the wrong place.
"can't say that her playing is the most appealing"
"I know a lot about Irish music and I am even aware of the fiddler's reputation. She plays a selection of reels. I haven't heard them before and they seem to blend into one another I'm having trouble trying to separate them remember how they go. She changes key and I know' she has changed to another tune. I am now also starting to get bored."
"her choice of tunes didn't seem very well judged, and I don't find that guitar playing very sympathetic either"
"I am just not that keen on her sound or choice of tunes"
"Liz plays well enough in that style, bit jittery for my taste"
This is the kind of brainless cloth-eared unimginative blasphemy that precludes me from ever being or wishing to be part of a community with such feckin numpties as you lot.
This is the kind of brainless cloth-eared unimginative blasphemy that precludes me from ever being or wishing to be part of a community with such feckin numpties as you lot
Looks like we are all out of step but our Mickey. Must be sad to be a loner !
Do any of you play at sessions in Ireland? Have any of you played at sessions in Ireland?
Believe me the audience in this clip at the White House are attentive, appreciative, and rapt compared to the standard crowd in an Irish pub. And qlas we have the same behaviour, the pub carries on business during the performance, the music is regarded as "wall paper" music or "piped" music in the background, much as it is in this clip.
But at least the audience here are not actually shouting and yelling and laughing.
bb, do you think Liz Carroll & John Doyle would get that reception at your local pub? BTW, I have heard Liz Carroll yelling & laughing once when she was the one in the audience.
" I have heard Liz Carroll yelling & laughing once when she was the one in the audience."
I mentioned the guy at the Chieftains concert earlier - but I also recall some weel kent Gàidhlig singers along with a weel kent Sean-nós singer sitting on the stage at the Celtic Connections festival club babbling away while Paddy Keenan was playing. Paddy wasn't too happy. Around the same period, I asked Martin Hayes if he minded one or two flash shots taken during a performance. "The least of my worries" he said making an obvious stare towards a group of musicians making much noise at a nearby table.
O.K. this time I lied. Liz Carroll was performing or *technically* she was talking with the audience. A different musician, from the audience, was yelling & laughing ... but it was Joanie Madden & they were both behaving like little kids. If you haven't been around Joanie Madden here is an example of what happens when the band is having a good time during a performance ~ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61elxwsdhX0
The people in that room have no souls. They are hollow empty shells. They are the type of people who "don't listen to music" when asked about their listening habits. They don't do comedy either and paintings are judged, by them, only by the price tag. They don't own pets. They scare children when they laugh because it's not really laughter it's something quite different and leaves a faint smell of sulpher when it's over. Their hands are very soft and sweaty, plump. They work sixteen hour days every day and each one has cheated on their spouse with staffers male , female both and niether. They are an ugly ugly lot of rot. Shun them. Go not near them or you too will linger in the eternal wasteland looped like a noose by the Washington beltway.
>>This is the kind of brainless cloth-eared unimginative blasphemy that precludes me from ever being or wishing to be part of a community with such feckin numpties as you lot.
Llig, generally I respect your comments even when I don't agree with them, but that has to be the most UNMUSICAL thing you have ever said.
Since when did this music require everyone to have precisely the same views? I didn't say Liz Carroll is not a good musician - I said that from what I have seen, personally I like her style and choice of material less than some other players. That is a completely fair and informed comment - in which other kind of music would it deserve such an ignorant response?
>>The people in that room have no souls. They are hollow empty shells...They scare children when they laugh ... They work sixteen hour days every day ...Shun them. Go not near them
Chance would be a fine thing, Shanty. Unfortunately, they don't only inhabit the world of politics, even places where you might expect more humane values to hold sway, if you get my drift...
"Chance would be a fine thing, Shanty. Unfortunately, they don't only inhabit the world of politics, even places where you might expect more humane values to hold sway, if you get my drift..." ian stock
"Bob Byrd plays the fiddle but so does Old Nick and both were in the KKK so I rest my case...."
Byrd had a history of endorsing and then denouncing various beliefs and doctrines. Someone who learned by past mistakes.
His statements during the Bush administration regarding Iraq are quite noteworthy......However, that's slipping into political discussion. Let's just say that Liz Carroll would have benefited from the gig at the White House and the response from the suited folk would be a relatively small issue. Just the fact that two traditional musicians are given such a gig is a positive step.
"Which ever way the wind blows" is not a good trait for a person esp. one taking on a leadership role in society. That is one of the many reasons why I hold politicians in such low esteem. They are hollow.
If you're not familiar with Irish music, a set of fast reels would have an effect similar to a fast train going by - an indistinct, blurry "whoosh". When I first started checking out ITM I remember thinking "I can't listen that fast".
The set is awesome. I'd encourage everyone to turn the volume up, close your eyes and LISTEN!!! I dig the wildness of her playing- totally in control but sounding close to out of control (like a roller coaster) and Doyles playing is fantastic and reminds me of the guitarist that played with Sean Maguire on a couple of youtube clips-fantastic stuff. The audience is a sad distraction, as they are in many instances....
A sad distraction, indeed, shanty. The audience is irrelevant, unless they are assaulting the players, screeching into their phones, or otherwise behaving like a typical bar crowd on Saturday night. Most people outside of the diddley-trail faithful do not have the musical curiosity to attend to and enjoy even a short set of reels. Unless you slip in the Star Wars theme to get their attention, your typical random crowd will get antsy after the first time through the second tune. You can see it in their eyes; they lose even the ability to clap off-tempo, and you realise that your best hope is a spectacular wardrobe malfunction.
So the cookie eating, Blackberry-checking crowd in the clip are at least benign. However, being treated like the embarrassingly untalented child asked to play their piano piece for assembled relatives at a family gathering must have been a bit of a trial for Liz and John. However, I'm sure that they both have overcome the shame and disillusionment, and gotten on with their lives as best they could.
So, what do you think, folks? Is a set of reels with an absent audience a performance?
Nice try, Michele. I have given the clip and Liz in general several more listens since Llig's earlier admonishment but I'm afraid I can't get too excited either. Technically brilliant, of course, but not very appealing to my ear, and I've been listening for a long time.
That was the 'sub-text' of my OP: while *somebody* knew precisely who to call to get one of the top acts for the occasion, I actually wonder whether they are just too specialised for a lay audience. I wonder whether someone like The Chieftains or Danu would have got a better response, simply because unlike Liz, they conform more to lay-people's expectations of what Irish music 'should' sound like.
Also fruitful contemplation for current discussions here about the kind of venues our own modest outfit should seek to play in...there's a bit of a debate going on aboutwhether to aim for the more prevalent pub circuit where the audience would be non-specialist, and would have to be treated accordingly, or whether to hope to get ourselves on the fewer and further between, but more knowledgeable music venue and even festival scene - if we can.
i think the audience is fine. it's a luncheon. have you ever played for people eating?
i don't think they should have done a concert instead, i think it's really cool to have live music on st. patrick's day at lunch in the whitehouse. martin hayes and dennis cahill played again this year...
i happened to run into dennis cahill the day after, and he said that the people were wonderful. the secret service was joking around about some of the crazy politicians (on both sides). meanwhile congressmen that fox and cnn would swear were old enemies were kidding around and having fun, off camera.
two big names even came up and told martin and dennis that they had been "following their career." to which dennis was quick to say, "we're following yours too." sounds like a great afternoon, and i bet liz and john had an equally interesting and memorable time.
i'm sure that if the video comes out for this year's it will look as dreary and "horrible" as the previous year's video.....
"I wonder whether someone like The Chieftains or Danu would have got a better response, simply because unlike Liz, they conform more to lay-people's expectations of what Irish music 'should' sound like."
Ian, I don't even know where to begin. A luncheon is a difficult gig ... the room is packed with tables, bus people, photographers... Liz & John were probably only given time for the one set of tunes, booking a duo seems right because of the limited space ...
A completely different type of White House gig would be the performances for the Gershwin prize which is not just for the suits & is more about the music.
Yes of course, Ben - I'm just pulling wings off flies, really. All the other explanations are more than adequate, though I still think some of the suits are pretty suspect, not to show at least a small reaction to what is going on. Genre of music is almost irrelevant - what kind of philistine can sit through live music without exhibiting even the slightest interest?
To my ear, Liz Carroll sounds a bit removed from the more 'typical' Irish fiddle player. My experience is that most people I encounter have at least some dim awareness of what that means, and I wonder to what extent that audence's expectations simply weren't met.
Always a tricky one for people proposing to play to an audience - remain 'true' to your music, or tailor it to the audience...?
To me, her style almost has jazz overtones to it, and I don't find Doyle's guitar playing in the least bit subtle or sympathetic to the music. Yes, the two work together well, because they both seem to have that same jazzy overtone, but it's not my taste and wonder if that also contributed to the lack of reaction.
Not sure the sound quality on that clip really helped, either - but I am a bit bemused that I found it on their offical website - possibly not the best advertisement for their music (as opposed to who they've met)?
Ian-your point that Ms. Carroll is not the typical Irish fiddler is why I would expect her to show up playing at the White House for a fellow Chicago resident. And I really doubt that she would have blown off the opportunity to perform for Obama at the White House because the audience was not quite up on their traditional music.
Just to contrast with the 'normal' musical world: I went to a performance by the local symphony last week. It has been years since I have been to the symphony, and I had forgotten how formal the audiences are. I thought they totally rocked the Max Bruch concerto (soloist was wonderful) as well as the Eroica; everyone sat very still, and then politely applauded at the end. The concert got rave reviews, but you would never know it sitting in the hall. But that is just how it is done. And I would imaging that the DC crowd is more used to that sort of behavior at a performance. (For the record, I did not get up and dance, yell 'hup' between movements, or disgrace my companions in any way.)
Of course Liz Carroll sounds more than a bit removed from the more 'typical' Irish fiddle player. It's because your 'typical' Irish fiddle player is hopeless ... and Liz Carroll is bloody brilliant.
Well now Micháel, there might be a few 'typical' Irish fiddle players on here who would take umbrage to that statement, Still, it's nice to see you nearly give an 'opinion' on the Thread rather than offer a tirade of abuse about those who do..
Ring ... ring ... ring ...
Liz Carroll: Hello, this is Liz.
White House St. Patrick's Coordinator: We've a gig for you & Mr. Doyle. Are you available noonish on the 17th? They'll be photos with the President & 1st Lady.
LC: John doesn't have to sing "Danny Boy"?
WHSPC: No worries, the Secret Service are going to lead the songs. A handful of reels, perhaps?
LC: The usual stuffed shirts, I suppose?
WHSPC: (rolls eyes) Yes, they'll come for the free wine.
LC: Well ... he is from Chicago ... Sure, tell the 1st couple we'll pencil them in.
WHSPC: Grand! What a relief. The typical Irish bands were all booked.
Ian-"what kind of philistine can sit through live music without exhibiting even the slightest interest?"
I'm telling you people they ARE INHUMAN!!! THEY DRINK EMBALMING FLUID CHASED WITH MARTINIS, blood clots and strychnine! What they call entertainment is only whispered at in the back alleys of Honolulu's Hotel St. THEY ARE VILE. I can not even hint at the malevolence of these creatures.
oh and uh....Happy Easter to the Catholics and Happy Ishtar to the pagans!
"what kind of philistine can sit through live music without exhibiting even the slightest interest?" (Ian)
The kind of people who provided work for musicians before recorded music was available. Not unlike the kind of people who go out for a meal or drink at a place where some guy has been hired to play quietly in a corner.
What kind of person can do an introduction so transparently read off a card ? Surely it would have been better to have the introduction done by someone with the ability to pick up a brief and work from it without showing that they hadn't much clue what they were talking about. Do those folks know any people like that ?
David50---"The kind of people who provided work for musicians before recorded music was available" --You mean like for dances, of course, where people are moving right? I'm sure that's the earliest need for a musician. 'Sit and listen like a stone' came along much much later.....
What's not seen in the video is when, after the musicians leave, They all pull the masks off to reveal the mutant faces hidden beneath!
>>Of course Liz Carroll sounds more than a bit removed from the more 'typical' Irish fiddle player. It's because your 'typical' Irish fiddle player is hopeless ... and Liz Carroll is bloody brilliant.
Llig - I meant stylistically - as the rest of that post showed. I don't disagree that she is an excellent player, though I'm not (yet...) really in a position to judge 'brilliant' on the fiddle.
There's a difference between assessing quality and actually liking something. Now please advise, is there a jazz influence in there? (I'm thinking a bit of Grappelli or the like...)
Shame you have such a low opinion of the exponents of the style you love...
Liz is brilliant. I don't know if she's jazz influenced, but she is very friendly and you ever get the chance to meet her, at Celtic Connections or some such thing, I'm sure she'd happily tell you what her influences were. She's been playing Irish music since she was a kid, won the All-Ireland when she was 18.
>>everyone sat very still, and then politely applauded at the end. ... I would imaging that the DC crowd is more used to that sort of behavior at a performance.
Good point Michele - hadn't considered that. Should have, too, being a classic concert-goer.
>> I did not get up and dance, yell 'hup' between movements, or disgrace my companions in any way.)
Thank heavens. Could have been interesting though. I did once have a student throw up all over the three rows of people in front of him in the middle of the slow movement of Rachmaninov's Piano Concerto no.2 at The Barbican in London - which had interesting consequences. It has never been the same piece of music since...
Likewise, have been in an audience on the receiving end of Angus Grant's sarcasm for *failing* to get up and dance in the aisles...
While there are thousands and thousands of fiddle players who play in what could be described as a "typical" Irish style, every single one of the good players play in what can only be described as their own style. For that's at the heart of what this music is about. It's the expression of ones' self, through the medium of the tradition.
The "Irish Style" is a clone factory. Good players just don't play like that. You can spot who's who by listening to half a bar. Good players are exceptionally distinctive. They are self stylists
And Liz Carroll is a pristine example. And it just plain bloody annoys me when people spout such uninformed tripe as "Liz plays well enough in that style". It's such a fundamental admission of cluelesness
The best players, the brilliant players, have very individual styles and always have done. Along with Liz Carroll, listen to Tommy Peoples, Johnny Doran, Johnny Doherty, Tommy Potts, Willie Clancy, Seamus Ennis, Paddy Fahey, Bobby Casey.... The list goes on, and on, and on. They don't sound like the "typical" Irish player. That's cause they're not "typical" Irish players at all! Your "typical" Irish player is your average musician who can(hopefully) play a nice tune down at the pub or at a ceilidh or even a gig, but isn't ever likely to find their name in the above list.
There's no Jazz influence with Liz Carroll, just Liz influence. Like I say, give Liz Carroll "Liz Carroll" a whirl. There's enough magic on that album to get her point. Me, I like her playing a lot.
Shanty - Not having much attention paid has probably been the lot of court musicians since courts and musicians were invented. I thought the rude bit was not either openly reading the introduction off a card or putting a bit of effort in to pretend she knew what she was talking about - that doesn't seem to be a big effort for people in politics.
I don't think the guy nearest camera at the left (almost as bald as me) had a mutant face underneath. The blank staring eyes and greenish complexion suggested he was expecting the waiter to come round with his plateful of brainz.
Doyle was playing geeky guitar-tech rock and roll. Pretty irrelevant to Doherty's tunes (or to any kind of traditional music from anywhere), but it made a lot of sense in that situation since that kind of music is what suits understand.
... Hey yeah, lets all slag every one who wears a suit too, they all all twits aren't they. And that Doyle fella, he's rubbish too eh. Ooooh it's all so not to my taste.
"... Hey yeah, lets all slag every one who wears a suit too, they all all twits aren't they." llig
Now now, just because you have to suffer the indignity of crumpling the trousers of your suit by using bicycle clips, don't take it out on the rest of us. Anyone would think you're easter egg went down the wrong road.
Anyway it's not the suit that maketh the suit, it's the quality of the being within.
It's not "if", Llig, it's "when". You have been warned
>>Good players are exceptionally distinctive. They are self stylists
I think all players, other than perhaps outright beginners are. Even I have my own style - I just happen not to like it very much! Better musicians probably have more choice and control over that style; I have still to find that I can like the choices Liz Carroll makes. Sometimes technically brilliant people let that brilliance get in the way of a rounded performance.
>>For that's at the heart of what this music is about. It's the expression of ones' self, through the medium of the tradition.
Well I could beg to differ on that, too. IMHO it's a very self-indulgent view. For me, it's as much about the way one interacts with others, both musically and socially. And it's also about (for want of a better word) a musicological fascination with the music, of which playing it is the logical peak.
>> It's such a fundamental admission of cluelesness
I've said it before and I'll say it again - easy to say when you have lived a life surrounded by the stuff. Try coming and living in rural Essex (or indeed anywhere where the music is not part of the everyday fabric) for twenty years and then tell me what you think.
Don't be so harsh on others' ignorance, they can't *always* help it - at least we are here to learn... That's why I asked whether we could meet in the summer - the further the learning curve - not to be put down for what I don't know...
>>Doyle was playing geeky guitar-tech rock and roll. Pretty irrelevant to Doherty's (Carroll's?) tunes (or to any kind of traditional music from anywhere)
I'm glad I'm not the only one who thought that. An ignorant view from Mr. Campin? I don't think so.
What's really annoying me more and more about this thread is the fixation with superficial similarities coupled with dismal dismissal of brilliance in the name of personal taste where the reality is simply a lack of understand.
It's very frustrating, I can't make you hear it, understand it. You have to make your own efforts and be less quick to dismiss.
"aargh. I got my Liz's mixed up. They're both great." Maybe Nancy Pelosi was reading from a card to avoid such errors - and she is not a trad Irish buff.
Llig - we have drifted far from the OP - which was actually about audiences, not Liz Carroll, and secondly about the fact that - just perhaps - even a great player can sometimes mis-judge their audience.
But that aside, I had been trying to find out more about her playing, so went to her website and that was the first video clip I saw. Hardly a great recommendation, despite the obvious technical excellence. I can cope with not liking *everyone* who happens to be technically good. I even like some people who are not technically good.
But in fairness to your argument, I have spent some more time. First, I went back through all of the other clips I looked at. Here they are:
I went mostly for her current partnership as best view of the current state of play. See a pattern? I saw something that was not really my cup of tea.
I have now gone looking further, including listening to what clips All Celtic Music will allow from her discography. I can see that there is a difference, and I prefer the recordings, particuarly some of her stuff from the mid '90's. So maybe it's just the direction she's gone in recently? Or maybe it's actually a combination of poor sound quality and what I consider to be possibly unsympathetic accompaniment on those clips that is the real culprit?
I like what little I can hear of her Lake Effect and Double Play albums.
>>dismal dismissal of brilliance in the name of personal taste
Please read more carefully. At no point did I dismiss her technical brilliance. But I still prefer both Kiri te Kanawa and Angela Gheorgiou to Maria Callas. Sometimes there's more to it than techincal brilliance.
...and while I'm at it, there is a contradiction between playing as a means of self-expression and appreciating (only) technical brilliance. Plenty of people do the former without having the latter.
• Liz Carroll is a dazzler; heart, soul, and exquisite taste to her playing.
• John Doyle is the most imaginative, propulsive trad accompanist around.
• These particular suits-at-the-trough, devouring their tax payer-provided lunches, are the ones Orwell meant when he wrote “some pigs are more equal than others.”
When I first got into the pipes, people told me to listen to all the great players, Seamus Ennis, Willie Clancy, and a few others. So I did and was a bit like, "They're good but it's not very musical." Their phrasing and timing just sounded a bit off to me, not all nice and friendly and clear like you hear on Planxty records. With players like that, there is a ton going on in each tune that it overwhelms your brain and it feels like you're just hearing a lot of notes. A few years later, I "got" it and could hear the playfulness and skill, freedom and control in their playing. Like with Liz Carroll, there is a depth of complexity to their music and it takes quite a lot of sensitivity and familiarity with the music to even begin taking it all in.
Point being, tastes can change a great deal so long as you're open to hearing new things and thinking, "All these people who seem to be quite knowledgeable about the music think Liz Carroll is amazing. Time to figure out why."
Look! I've played in the most famous in the world for the most famous man in the world. Visitors to my web site will surely think I must be really good. It will be good for John too. Stick it on as the first video!
Ah! No.
Let us give thanks for the new Congress, and for the new Speaker Of The House. Henceforth, there will be no more collision of worlds; Liz Carroll will ever after enjoy Washington power elite's undivided attention; and there will be no more need to invoke Orwell. Phew!
I'm not all knowledgeable - but I enjoy Liz's playing because it sounds energetic and passionate - like she's racing through the hills and getting the car up on two wheels around the turns just for the thrill of it. She sounds like she's having fun while playing and that is infectious. She takes the tune right up to the edge of dangerous. John Doyle is the motor that won't quit - a turbo-hemi riding on race slicks. A pony at a full gallop.
If you're going to play to a room full of stiffs, why not let your musical dogs loose just to keep yourself entertained while playing?
as far as i am aware of, any "jazziness" that might show up in her playing is through players like tommy potts (whoi recall is a major influence). give her playing a chance. going on youtube is a great way to find new stuff, but not a great way to develop deep appreciation. get an new album and listen to it for a bit to digest it. then see what you think. start off at the beginning of her career if that's what you think might suit your tastes.
Will, the OP was very little to do with the musicians.
Other than a comment about the wisdom of having such a poor clip top on one's website, and the fact that I was not inclined to like it, no critique of the musicians.
Sorry if my personal preferences offend, but I wasn't aware there were rules on here about what one is expected to like.
Copperplate, it seems you may be correct. I joined here to learn more about the music, but it increasingly seems to me that trad music (at least as represented by MB) has a BIG Achilles’ heel – namely that people haven’t the first idea how to communicate their knowledge. Being told (on numerous occasions) to “just listen” really isn’t helpful to anyone who doesn’t already know what they are listening *for*, let alone what then to DO.
No doubt there are people on here brilliant enough just to hear it for themselves, but ordinary mortals need some guidance. I have been listening to S/ITM music (at least in its more readily available forms) for several decades; I generally have a reasonable music education and ear, but it seems that I have missed almost everything of any importance. Be that as it may - the problem is, when I ask for help, nobody can really explain it. What they are very good at is criticising people who don’t ‘get’ it.
As an educator, that seems pretty unhelpful, but it also leads me to wonder a) how much of this really is one-upmanship about vanishingly small points of order or b) a weakness with the genre, that under the guise of ‘oral tradition’ no one seems able actually to pin anything down.
Some of it seems to be prejudice from people who for whatever reason, may lack more formal musical knowledge. Believe me, that isn’t a virtue, it just makes life more difficult, and it doesn't seem to apply to those pro's who I've encountered. It might help with those (conveniently) indefinable subtleties, which I of course accept are an essential part of this, as any, music - but which can also conveniently be used to exclude the rest of us - and as musical technique it sucks. Even commercial tuition products that I have bought have mostly been poor. Accepted that MB does not set out to be an educational website, but it still ain’t helpful.
There *are* places where this music is taught – I have learned far more about the music from two months on OAIM where they have actually worked out what a learner needs, and take you through it step by step, than much longer on here. Maybe that is as it should be, but the ridicule and dismissal of so many people who ask innocent questions is frankly pretty abhorrent. And I’m not talking about me here.
There are a few people on here who are really helpful, but for instance, when I approached Llig who is clearly a skilled player, with a view to meeting him this summer, he would give me no reassurance that a meeting with him would not be a prickly experience, and I asked him for some tune names that I could learn so that I will be ready for those sessions he knows in Edinburgh. He hasn’t seen fit to reply, except with public insults about my (and others’) taste in playing. Really helpful.
What started out as an innocent comment about a dull-looking audience (read the OP, Will) has turned into a personal criticism of me; why?
I’m reading an interesting book at present – it’s about the way in which pressurised conformism often does nothing more than perpetuate collective idiocy. It has a point.
>>pressurised conformism often does nothing more than perpetuate collective idiocy>> classic.
IMO Ian, a number of prolific posters here are actually here to behave in the manner you describe. Thats what gets them off
As regards certain 'members' here being 'good' musicians, hmm what makes you think that? Plenty can talk a good tune.... But demonstrate their ignorance regularly with frankly laughable ,basic fundamental errors.
Sigh... but point those out and all hell breaks loose! Some folk would rather be big fish in a small pond, if the pond gets too big, they need to up their game or accept reality, or of course, simply act in a manner so reprehensible that any bar the most thick skinned vacate ASAP and dont return thereby keeping the pond small enough......It must be hard work racing round trying to maintain pool size and image while having no spare time to reflect on substance.....
This isn't a teaching site, it is a discussion board for traditional musicians. But when someone does come in with a genuine question, that hasn't been answered a hundred times before and can't be answered by typing three words into Google, you'll find people here genuinely helpful. But what you have to appreciate is that a lot of the questions asked come across as grossly disrespectful to both the music and the musicians. There is a constant trickle of people who come here and say something that amounts to "I'm a competent classical musician, so if you just tell me what I'm supposed to do I'll crack this ITM in no time, it can't be that difficult." Have you any idea how insulting that is to someone who has spent half a lifetime mastering the idiom?
OK, you're an educator, you think everything can be taught, and you're getting frustrated because you don't think the teaching you've come across is very good. That's because this is something that really can't be taught. It's like teaching art - you can teach a kid how to hold a paintbrush, how to mix colours etc. But you can't teach him how to paint a great picture, that has to come from within him. So it is with traditional music. people can teach you some technique, they can teach you some tunes (which is probably analogous to teaching you to paint by numbers) but they can't teach you to make music. That can only come from within, and the only way to nurture it is to listen. And if you need to ask 'what am I supposed to be listening FOR?' you haven't listened enough. That sounds trite, but it is true. You're not listening FOR anything, simply absorbing the feel of the music.
As to your exchange with llig. He's absolutely right. If you need to ask for a tune list so that you can 'learn the tunes' then you are nowhere near ready to play in sessions like Sandy Bell's. Do go along and watch the masters at work, you'll learn a lot. But don't take your instrument. If you do you'll spent the whole evening trying not to look a prat, and will learn nothing. As a classical musician you wouldn't expect to perform your first gig at the Albert Hall with the Halle Orchestra, and traditional music is no different.
I think you're rather unfair about the subtleties you fail to perceive Ian. It's not the function of a discussion forum to teach those. I listened to some of your clips a while ago and I see your problem (as I said at the time) but you can't expect to be taught in minute detail here.
In a previous discussion I posted several links, Pat Mitchell's articles among them them, to get you started. Lead a horse to water and all that, and after that it really is about doing the leg work. To listen until you actually hear a few things that are going on would be a good start. And seek out people to sit down and do a bit of practical work.
Thinking you'll find it all here, that's really a matter of looking in the wrong place.
>>This isn't a teaching site, it is a discussion board for traditional musicians.
I conceded that. But a lot of people come here for advice…
>>Have you any idea how insulting that is to someone who has spent half a lifetime mastering the idiom?
Yes, which is why I have tried not to take that approach. But the greatest of all are those who realise how idiotic learners can be,and show infinite patience...
Personal weakness maybe, but having spent half a lifetime clearly *failing* to master this idiom and effectively finding I have to go back to square one isn’t that great either. Frustrating, to say the least.
>>You think everything can be taught
I can see why you think that, I supposedly based my life around that which can be. In fact much of most things has to come from within. But why should one particular kind of music be any different? I’m not talking about that which makes a genius, simply that which generally defines it, such that one can start to learn how to make reasonable progress.
>>It's like teaching art - you can teach a kid how to hold a paintbrush, how to mix colours etc. But you can't teach him how to paint a great picture, that has to come from within him. So it is with traditional music.
Good analogy, but more or less true of all music, or indeed any art-form. But see above.
>>And if you need to ask 'what am I supposed to be listening FOR?' you haven't listened enough. That sounds trite, but it is true. You're not listening FOR anything, simply absorbing the feel of the music.
I am pretty comfortable with the sound of this music, even if I can’t always distinguish between individual subtleties. I can pick up a tune by ear pretty quickly. I can take dots and turn them into something reasonable too, the more so for the change of instrument. Not everyone’s idea of good practice, but IMO it shows I’ve absorbed the idiom, at least up to a point.
‘Absorbing’ someone’s style is very satisfying from an aesthetic point of view, but in order for to make any appreciable impact on what you do yourself, you need to be able to identify how a certain ‘feel’ was achieved. All trad players learned at some time - and imitation would inevitably have been part of it. Otherwise you might as well tell anyone who couldn’t play at birth never to bother.
>>As to your exchange with llig. He's absolutely right. If you need to ask for a tune list so that you can 'learn the tunes' then you are nowhere near ready to play in sessions like Sandy Bell's.
Well, if the scene is as illogical as that, then how can anyone ever get anywhere with it? We all started somewhere? I’m very hesitant about playing at Bell’s, which is why I asked. But surely being prepared is better than not being? I will make the final decision when I get there – was certainly intending to stake it out, minus instrument before going any further.
>> you can't expect to be taught in minute detail here.
>>Lead a horse to water and all that, and after that it really is about doing the leg work. To listen until you actually hear a few things that are going on would be a good start. And seek out people to sit down and do a bit of practical work.
Fair point. That’s why I have started taking the online fiddle lessons. That’s best available at present, though we now have a (very) good fiddle player in the band, so hopefully something will rub off…
I have been listening for years, but unless you are in the position to be able to *do* yourself, then it is too easy for the stuff you need to be hearing to escape you. The experience of those beginners fiddle lessons is enough to show that.
Asking someone to ‘signpost’ things can sometimes be a substitute.
What still puzzles me is why this thread has gone this way, when the OP was nothing to do with this at all…
As for leading horses... well, the process is under way, but as everyone says, it isn't quick - and I do have a crust to earn...
Thanks for taking the time - but the problem is, no one seems to be able to tell me what the problem is, let alone what to do about it. Other than Emily, who is trying... I think I know, but I can't be sure, and what to do about it on a mandolin...??? It just doesn't seem to lend itself to what I *think* I need to be doing. Yep there are a some who have it, but where to find out what 'it' is and how they got it?
Well, one thing I did notice, listening to Sliabh Russell, is that to my ear there's not a lot of phrasing, you go dicketydickety six to the bar without much of phrasing or rhythmic emphasis. No variation, melodic or rhythmic. Especially on the mandolin you'd expect notes stressed to emphasise those things.
That's just off the top of my head, as far as I remember the clip.
Compare your version to, say, Séamus Ennis one for example. Notice how he articulates the melody and where his nuances are.
>>>It's like teaching art - you can teach a kid how to hold a paintbrush, how to mix colours etc. But you can't teach him how to paint a great picture, that has to come from within him. So it is with traditional music.
>Good analogy, but more or less true of all music, or indeed any art-form. But see above.
No, it's not true of all music at all. And I think once you grasp this, everything else will fall into place (certainly it did for me).
Sticking with the art analogy, playing from music is painting by numbers. If you do it a lot you'll get good at it, you'll be able to fill in the little areas with the right colours, very accurately. If you paint the same picture enough times using paint by numbers canvases you'll eventually be able to reproduce it without the numbers. Is that art?
Now supposing you have been painting by numbers all your life and you're really good at it. Then one day someone sits you in front of a landscape with a blank canvas, and says "pait it". Is your experience of painting by numbers going to help you? I don't think so.
And that is exactly how it is with music - to play traditional music you have to be able to hear a tune, interpret it and then play it, not learn by rote where each note and ornament is supposed to go.
That is why you need to listen to a LOT of traditional music if you are going to get any where. There is no shortcut - you're not listening to learn tunes or technique, you are listening to get the feel of the music. To get it so ingrained that when you hear a tune you've never heard before, you can almost anticipate the next phrase, and having heard it once you'll know how it should be played, because you've heard similar phrases so many times before.
Once you start getting near to that state you'll realise how silly the idea of going to a session with a list of prepared tunes is. There are thousands of tunes out there, and unless you learn them all, the chances of your 'learned' tunes coming up in any given session are fairly low. But if you've learned to play in the trad way that doesn't matter - even with a tune you've never heard before you'll be pretty much ready to join in on the second time through.
"What still puzzles me is why this thread has gone this way, when the OP was nothing to do with this at all…"
Well, your opening post seemed to be wondering why a bunch of folk didn't appreciate two musicians. You then went on to convey your own opinions of the music. Unfortunately, some people here hold one of the musicians in very high esteem and, no matter how constructive your criticism might have been, some seem to have a childish worship of musicians (Mr Gill got himself suspended by using insults) and any criticism can be taken the wrong way. I hope you can appreciate that those 'suits' might not have the same appreciation of Liz Carroll's music than you by realising that some people on here feel differently than you also, but in the other direction. Not that a youtube video is likely to capture everybody in that room. Some may well have appreciated it and Liz Carroll may have picked up on that, which is why she posted that video on her website - her take might be something entirely different.
>>>As to your exchange with llig. He's absolutely right. If you need to ask for a tune list so that you can 'learn the tunes' then you are nowhere near ready to play in sessions like Sandy Bell's.
>>Well, if the scene is as illogical as that, then how can anyone ever get anywhere with it? We all started somewhere? I’m very hesitant about playing at Bell’s, which is why I asked.
The scene isn't in the least bit illogical - it has a hirachy just like any other music. If you play in a rock band you don't start off playing at Wembley Stadium, you start in the local pub and work your way up.
Do go to Bell's, it will help you see where you fit in the scheme of things, but don't take your instrument, thinking you'll be able to just jump in and play.
To be fair, here's the line from the original post:
"Just been watching a few Liz Carroll clips - can't say that her playing is the most appealing to my ears"
That actually seems quite a tame statement, I don't really see what any of the fuss was about. Whether you agree or not isn't the point - it's a perfectly reasonable view to hold, and there's no reason why anyone should jump on him for it.
Jon, The conversation isn't about Ians original post anymore, its about the one a liitle further up that starts:
"Copperplate, it seems you may be correct. I joined here to learn more about the music, but it increasingly seems to me that trad music (at least as represented by MB) has a BIG Achilles’ heel – namely that people haven’t the first idea how to communicate their knowledge. Being told (on numerous occasions) to “just listen” really isn’t helpful to anyone who doesn’t already know what they are listening *for*, let alone what then to DO"
All I can say is listen to so-and-so, listen to their timing and phrasing. Ian, I would say you should focus on articulating your phrases, as I what I hear are rushed phrases, or bits where you fudge a couple notes together. I'm in a coffee shop pretending to work at the moment so I am just saying that based on what I remember hearing when I listened to those clips a few days ago.
Beyond that, it's really hard to articulate exactly what you need to be listening for. It's like trying to explain to the novice horse person the concept of "feel" (again, that word). You have to be so perceptive at reading the horse's body language that you can predict what he's going to do before he does it, and respond accordingly (either negatively or positively). I can stand next to a novice person and say, "Now he's moving into your space. Make him back up." By the time I have said that, it's too late. Part of working with a trainer is to have the guidance, to be taught what to look for and how to react to it, but you'll never be able to effectively train a horse yourself until you have developed that feel and understanding of the animal. It's not something which can be taught in a step-by-step manner, only something guided towards in the hope the person eventually gets it. Many people never do. Like with Irish music and all the people who can play a tune, but in that sort of stilted, flat way, there are many many people who can ride a horse, stop, steer, and not fall off, and quite a lot of people enjoy that and are happy with that. But to be a real horseman or woman, or a really good Irish player, you need to develop that feel and timing and understanding at a far deeper level, and there isn't a simple answer or instructions along the lines of, "Do this and you'll get it." If there were, a lot more people would "get it."
It does help to listen. It helps to listen to tunes even if you think you know those tunes. It helps to listen to one person playing a variation on a tune, being drawn in because I hadn't thought of it that way. It even helps to listen to poor players & recognizing what's not working ... rushing bits, lack of articulation, too much precision (the exact same each time); & then play it better yourself. It helps to listen while not playing. It helps to listen while playing. It helps to not have to read this, or even searching YouTube for umpteen million examples of someone playing tunes. It probably helps to go to Sandy Bells when Gill is playing & expect to do more listening than playing; for starters.
Go for it, Ian. You may not find the answers you're looking for. You may leave in a huff. However, if you are patient, with listening, it may pay off.
For everyone who is wondering ... Of course I consider Michael overly rude & prone toward kneejerk responses. He is upfront about it though. I don't condone his manner. But, aside from recognizing the fact I see no reason to try & tame his wild nature. He will discover civility if he feels it is important to the music. Until then we need someone like him.
Playing vs. listening. It's still listening. Play everything you hear ~ hear a new tune, pick it out on mandolin. Try different phrasing, different articulation. Transpose the key.
I'm sick and tired of eejits here claiming there's a cabal or junta here. If you spout nonsense, folks here will call you on it. Just because some of us have participated here for a decade doesn't mean we're all in cahoots. I typically disagree with Llig's caustic approach, however often I might agree with his insights on this music.
To copperplate and Jig, drop your stupid conspiracy theories and grow up.
Ian, you went to some length in this thread (not just in the OP) to call Liz Carroll's playing into doubt. Even accounting for personal taste, you can't expect that to go unchallenged on a forum about traditional Irish music. Liz is a fecking brilliant fiddler, even if you don't care for her personal style. Sorry, but if you've listened to this music for years and still can't hear that, there may be no hope.
As for being helpful on this forum--I've spent many hours typing away in here to pass on what others have taught me about this music. I've posted clips to teach tunes and techniques (back when soundlantern was up and running). More often than not, however, some hack (we've seen the videos, we know who you are) lobs mounds of bad, counterproductive advice into the mix. Not just a different view--that's fine and welcome by all. But genuinely stupid and often harmful advice, and so the discussion derails.
Frankly, it's a waste of time.
You're far better off with a face-to-face mentor. Go find one.
I am still mystified why this has arisen – as Jon said, from an innocent expression of a purely personal viewpoint... and all subsequent comments were only the consequence of what went before.
Will, here’s the thread title re-phrased: “The Suits don’t appreciate what talent they are witnessing”. And why do you think I had been looking for Liz Carroll clips in the first place? Even if I was initially disappointed in what I found, this is hardly doubting her music.
>>Liz is a fecking brilliant fiddler
Well, if that’s the best we can do, it’s not surprising that we don’t see more reviews of trad music in the media... Really helpful for those who want to know WHY - not. Or is that just too much like questioning God? Do you all really think I didn’t appreciate the limitations of my own comment? It was meant (partly) as a bit of FUN...
A scene that can't deal with even mild dissent really needs to look at itself hard, IMO. It’s all the more ironic, since so much emphasis is supposedly placed on diversity and individual self-expression...
1. Painting by numbers. Painting by numbers ALONE will never make you into a great artist, but it might just give you a basic insight into how the technicalities work. If your errors are at a functional level, then any amount of disembodied ‘absorption’ or ‘inspiration’ won’t help. But a little technical guidance just might.
2. Painting by numbers, II. I think it is indulgent to consider this music to be so different from others. As if other music is just about technical execution: try telling that to Yehudi Menhuin or Dave Brubeck!
3. I can often anticipate next phrases, and my idle hands often play proto-tunes all on their own. The problem here is not ‘not knowing the music’, it’s how to bring it out in a practical sense. Functional problem again.
4. Hierarchy in the music: I’m afraid I don’t buy into that. What I like is the *lack* of hierarchy that I find. It may be different where you are, but I have yet to come across anyone who was not prepared to play with someone else on the grounds that they weren’t good enough. Not saying it’s wise, musically speaking, but that’s another matter.
Just this week we have had a classic example of lack of hierarchy from an *extremely* well-established fiddler, who is more than happy to travel 20 miles each week to play with the likes of us. He also agrees that good players and half-decent sessions/ bands are like hens’ teeth round here, and he should know. If Bell’s is snooty, I’m not sure I want to play there anyway. I may still go to listen, not be condescended to, or I may go somewhere friendlier.
5. Perhaps it was rash to publicise my tracks, which were really only intended for myself and a few close friends, I mentioned them here before I really realised what I had got myself into. But I was only asking for advice. Just bear in mind the fact that they were mostly made when hadn’t played for a good 18 months, and aren't a full reflection. I also get dreadful red-button-itis, plus the fact that I subconsciously overdrive the instrument just to achieve some volume. All subtlety goes out of the window. I don’t know what to do about that, but I do know I’m not alone.
On the other hand, when does one person’s ‘poor rhythm’, phrasing etc. simply become someone else’s ‘personal interpretation’? I consciously decided that Sliabh Russel wanted legato treatment to stop it sounding plinky (I know my instrument!) – though I confess I had only just learned it. Phrasing, I’m a bit puzzled on, because (to the 85% certainty that I understand what it means) I don’t think I have a problem with it – Emily, I’m puzzled because I thought you said my phrasing was O.K.
Ornamentation *is* a problem – try as I might, I can’t really make it happen on the mandolin, beyond a few triplets and hammers-on/off, and then not when volume (and sometimes speed) is needed. *No one* really seems to have cracked it so far as I can see. I can already do much better on the fiddle. FWIW, I took my early lead from Dave Richardson; there aren’t many clips of him, but from what I can see/hear, even he doesn’t attempt to ornament the mandolin very much. Quite often you can’t really hear what the mandolin is doing on a recording, anyway, which doesn’t help.
6. >>trad music has a BIG Achilles’ heel.
The fact that this may be uncomfortable (and it gives me no pleasure to say it) does not, in itself, render it untrue. I love the music as much as the next person, but it is not perfect, and perhaps its esoteric nature may be one of the reasons why a) it almost died and b) it has an ambivalent relationship with the wider musical world. If you can only understand this music by osmosis or magic, then many people simply won’t bother.
>> you went to some length in this thread (not just in the OP) to call Liz Carroll's playing into doubt
Really? I called the audience into doubt, and I called into doubt her choice of music for an apparently ignorant audience. Anyone could do the same - that was the point. Comment on the nature of specialisation, that's all.
I'm about to dash off for a session, but I can't resist commenting on one of Ian's points. I think it has to do with clouds and silver linings.
Though you kvetch about being in the middle of trad-music-nowhere, that sort of situation has its advantages. Like a lack of hierarchies. In my experience, places with lots of trad and lots of really good players and great sessions are completely rife with politics and hierarchies. You check out a session, you assess the people who are there, the types of tunes their playing, how they're playing them, and then you work out whether you can be a pretty active participant, leading a good number of sets, maybe only lead a few sets and play along on ones you know, sit in the back and quietly play along with the ones you know, or don't touch it with a bargepole. The final category can arise because the sessions is completely dire and you can't be bothered, or the session is so amazingly brilliant that you know you can't contribute and will just waste a seat. Then once you're past all that, there's all the politics -- who you get on with, who you've fallen out with, who you imagine dislikes you, who you're absolutely delighted to get in a tune with, and it just gets epically complicated.
That's why I giggled when I read your paragraph about how wonderful it is that trad music has no hierarchies. Good lord, it's absolutely riven with hierarchies, but in places where there aren't many musicians, where everyone sort of has to get on in order to have people to play with, the politics and the hierarchies get pushed back a bit. But in the trad music "meccas" you admire, navigating the morass of hierarchies and politics and slotting yourself in somewhere becomes a part of your musical life.
>>2. Painting by numbers, II. I think it is indulgent to consider this music to be so different from others. As if other music is just about technical execution: try telling that to Yehudi Menhuin or Dave Brubeck!
No, mate, this music isn't any different to most other genres. But what you learn in music lessons (which later turns into classical music) IS very different to most other genres. If you were trying to learn jazz or blues, or cajun or whatever you would still face exactly the same problems.
>>4. Hierarchy in the music: I’m afraid I don’t buy into that. What I like is the *lack* of hierarchy that I find. It may be different where you are, but I have yet to come across anyone who was not prepared to play with someone else on the grounds that they weren’t good enough. Not saying it’s wise, musically speaking, but that’s another matter.
How many different sessions have you actually been to? Once you've been to a few you will quickly realise that they are all different. Some are almost entirely composed of improvers, and everyone is welcome. Some are composed entirely of top flight musicians. Of those, some will welcome less able musicians, others won't . And there is every sort of mixture in between. You have to find your own level within that. Find a session that suits your ability. Where you're not being held back, and more importantly you're not stuffing it up for other people. That might be easy where you live - if there is only one show in town it's going to be pretty inclusive. But in an city like Glasgow or Edinburgh where there are a number of sessions to choose from, things are very different.
The fact that a good musician was willing to play with you doesn't show a lack of hierarchy, it shows a lack of ego. And just because he was willing to come play with you doesn't mean he would be happy if you went and stuffed up his regular session.
Ian, A couple of points:
1) You are taking a few opinionated comments on the internet WAY too seriously, the folks on this site are a slice of the Irish music community, but its not like they represent an official opinion or policy or anything. Take it for what it is, free advice that is worth every penny you paid for it, and move on.
2) Every minute you spend here rehashing arguments that could go on forever without reaching a conclusion is a minute of playing time wasted, go pick up your instrument and do what it is REALLY about--playing music that you enjoy.
3) People are not insulting you or being snobby by urging you to listen at a session you are attending for the first time. You will learn a lot by listening, and can have some fun. You don't have to join in to enjoy the tunes.
>>You are taking a few opinionated comments on the internet WAY too seriously
Probably, Al – I normally do...
Every minute you spend here …is a minute of playing time wasted
Have been averaging about three hours’ fiddle practice a day during the school hols. Plus other instruments. Very enjoyable (apart from the back ache…)
>> People are not insulting you or being snobby by urging you to listen at a session you are attending for the first time.
No, I wasn’t saying that. I know the etiquette, though how you deal with it if your visit can only be a one-off is a little difficult. But I don’t want to play with people who are superior or condescending – or worse.
>>what you learn in music lessons (which later turns into classical music) IS very different to most other genres
I never had enough music lessons for anything I did ever to resemble proper classical music. Didn’t like the rigidity. Singing in a choir was rather different.
>>The fact that a good musician was willing to play with you...shows a lack of ego.
And the fact that he’s joined the band shows that he’s happy with that, and will continue to be. We hope to learn from him.
>>doesn't mean he would be happy if you went and stuffed up his regular session
He doesn’t have one within acceptable reach. That’s the point about this area. Emily’s comment is very perceptive, and I’m glad it’s that way. I have far too much hierarchy in my working life to want it in my social life too.
There are many paradoxes wrapped in an enigma standing on a bedrock of humility.
""You're after something in the tune, and, at the end of the day, you are just the servant of the music." Liam O'Flynn
I'm just grasping at straws now.
Ian, my friend, there is an undercurrent here. Your questions are innocent enough, on the surface. For instance asking Llig to name some of the tunes they play in session in order for you to learn them. You anticipated some tune names... I think I missed his response. Perhaps it was deleted? Probably heated ... probably needed to be deleted.
If you asked me for the tunes I play in session I'd probably email you some names of tunes & recommend recordings. Having said that ; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wpAkgNhImjU
Gerry O'Connor, Paul McSherry, Martin O'Hare
However, you asked Llig within the context of this thread. There's the undercurrent. Does that make sense without further explanation. If so, grand! If not just say so & I'll email you my full dissertation.
For the record we play "The Didda"
Back to the bit on asking innocent questions vs. an undercurrent of controversy. We've plenty of rows; always have. I spent my first few months on thesession alternating between having large objects heaved at me, to being completed ignored, to emailing with very compassionate mustard people. It was a life experience. I don't know that I'd wish it on anyone. I have plenty of regrets. I continue to make adjustments. I do my best to balance everything. Most of all I like the crack. Sometimes I learn something here. Usually it's nothing direct.
At the session.org session at Willie Week 07, a girl who played flute showed up and she had the word "Muse" written on her t-shirt. Kenny and I speculated that she might be you, as you had been posting here under that handle at the time.
I suspect we might have been wrong, unless you are in fact a twenty-something year old Irish girl.
Solidmahog, I’m hardly old. But the more time goes on, the more I conclude that the vast majority of human undertakings consist of temples to false gods, built on foundations of sand, and the less I have to do with them, the better. Live and let live, I say.
In my professional life, I am being directed to work in a way that is completely counter-intuitive to everything I have come to understand about both education and human nature, by people who are building their own reputations on the back of ordering the minions to do things that cause direct harm to the people and communities we are supposed to be serving.
May sound melodramatic, but there is a gathering body of evidence to say I am not wrong. However, the system has us by the b*lls.
I am faced with a daily conflict between doing that which the hierarchy (from inspectorate downwards) is directing me to do, which if I don’t do I can be failed as a teacher even after 25 successful years (as rated my students), versus my conscience which says that many of their policies are worse than useless, they are actually harmful. I won’t quit because that would be yet another speck of resistance removed from the whole sick edifice, and a betrayal of the values I went into education for. But it has made me damned sick of hierarchies of people who often haven’t a clue what they are really doing, telling me they know best. I use my music as an escape from such situations, not a chance to find more of them.
Ben, what is the undercurrent? That I’m a stirrer? No, I’m probably just too innocent by half. The foregoing may support that – but make of that comment what you will Send me your thesis if you want, I won’t mind. The only other thing I would say is that people should never be afraid of asking hard questions, I won’t say testing to destruction as that would be, well, destructive – but it is only by submitting to rigour is the true worth of something really tested, and those false gods debunked.
My request for tune names was a simple attempt to head off the criticism that people who turn up to sessions ruin things by noodling tunes they don’t know. So I would have liked to go to Bell’s in the knowledge that I might actually have something I can join in with. I simply thought it was responsible behaviour.
For the record, my contact with Llig took place off list. It was probably unfair of me then to mention it on here, but given his tirade, it seemed reasonable to mention that despite his ranting, he has not taken the chance actually to do anything practical to reduce the ignorance he apparently so objects to.
Back to the OP... I was discussing this clip with Liz not that long ago and she told me that it followed a long series of speeches and they were regarded by most everyone in the room as background music for the break. Obama seemed to be the only one listening and I think that was a credit to him. I happen to think Liz's playing is spectacular and Jon's backup is brilliant... but that's just my opinion.
As for this discussion forum, the poor moderation has cultivated a clique of self-proclaimed experts who will bully anyone who disagrees with them. It's like watching an Irish trad destruction derby between a small group of the same people who challenge anyone who wanders in and then everyone starts crashing into each other until the person they were attacking leaves or gets thrown out. The discussions that go on in the comments for the tunes section is far more constructive, but this discussion forum has become a waste of time. It has nothing to do with the love or ability of playing the music and everything to do with posturing to puff up already overinflated egos as if that indicates their authority and expertise. My advice is to stick with the tune sections and seek advice elsewhere... unless you're a glutton for punishment.
Emily, this is completely true. I am not a twenty something woman. Although I did use a second identity for a period & she had a female name. I've discontinued using that profile. However, it was quite enlightening to walk in the shoes of the opposite sex if you will.
As for the time when I was known as The Muse, I grabbed it by chance one day. It wasn't originally for use on the Mustard Board. We had a gig & I wanted to invite everyone & their mother. I didn't want my other band members to know I was sending out band spam, so I assumed the anonymous sobriquet. It seemed to work. We packed the house.
Ian, thanks for the email. Work beckons for now, but I will return in kind. I'm converting an old horse stall into a chicken coop. So, if you know anything about nesting boxes ...
I've given this post a great deal of consideration. Sorry, Ian but I'm going to leave you high & dry. As much as I'd love to see a greater exchange between the curious questions of those eager to play the tunes in all their richness & those members with a wealth of experience; I cannot suss out the purpose of this thread (at least in terms of the OP). If it was a lark that's grand.
Cheers!
Well, the degree of selectivity varies according to the saturation of players. i.e. ~ fewer players in a given town the more likely individuals will seek out one another & bound(?) The larger the number of players (& sessions) the more tendency to be selective (more hierarchical). Of course this has all been discussed ad infinitum ... open vs. closed sessions, invite only, gig/performance/session, inner vs. outer circles, small sessions or large ...
This is such a beautiful spring day where I live. I feel quite the edjit taking the time to read this discussion as many times as I have. It drives me bonkers, when I would much rather be playing.
Tonight I'll play flute as long as I am able!
I called you a moron. It was in the strict sense of the word meaning "lacking in good judgement" (Chambers).
But that was only after thesilverspear called you a moron and you'd called me a fascist. I got barred because Jeremy doesn't like me, which is fine, he is high and mighty. But what irks me is you being high and mighty about it, playing the victim.
But leaving the banter of insults aside (there is a great and noble tradition of insult), your main complaint here seems to be that when you are asking for pointers on how you can improve your playing, you are only receiving glib and useless replies - I have not taken the chance to actually do anything practical to reduce the ignorance I apparently so object to.
I did, I said you should learn Liz Carroll's tunes, all of them. This as a project in itself will have multiple benefits.
Firstly, should you swallow your self-proclaimed cute puppy-like innocence and come for a tune in Edinburgh, we'll be guaranteed to have more tunes in common than just those on Will and Dow's famous lists (though these alone should be enough for a couple of sets between strangers).
Secondly, you'll enjoy yourself learning them, they are great infectious fun.
Thirdly, and most importantly, I guarantee that the process will reverse your current lack of good judgement. As you move through her catalogue your ability to distuingush what makes a good tune and what makes good playing will have to improve.
Go on, educate yourself. Or throw your first year twelve year old maths pupils in the class with the seventeen year old maths pupils and do away with hierarchy.
... all of them, eh? I do hope, Ian, you consider learning some Liz Carroll tunes. If you decide it is not worth your time that's your choice. I only know a handful of her tunes. I will be learning more.
Good post, Michael.
I think the 20 year old Irish female flute player at thesession.org session Willie Week 07 was me.
I was not wearing a suit and I was certainly not stiring it up.
I really don't think this thread is in need of another stoking. I have talked to Ben off-list about his comments, and I will talk to Llig similarly about the misunderstanding there. I expect there is nobody left on the planet who cares less about the rest of it by now.
Ben, I will learn some of Liz Carroll's tunes *provided* that I find some I like - when I have a disc or two to listen to. I am not going to learn tunes I don't like any more than anyone else would, just for the sake of taking some medicine. Likewise, starting with them all is hardly practical. I'm sure Michael and I will have others in common if needs be.
For the record, my comments are only ever meant tp be read at face value. I am still gobsmacked at how a humorous, throwaway comment has been taken to this ridiculous extreme. I can accept that some people might see me as naive or wearing my heart on my sleeve, but malicious or cynical is not what I do. I try to include circumstantial observations that will contextualise what I say, in contrast to many who provide little or nothing about themselves but who still seem to expect to be taken as Authorities despite the known shortcomings of internet communication. People seem all too ready to make judgements about others whom they know next to nothing about; That, BTW, is not a dig at Llig.
I always try to keep my observations impersonal. I spend quite a lot of time trying to make them clear and balanced, but cynics, it seems, will always see cynicism even where none exists.
Ben, the purpose of this thread is now as much a mystery to me as to you. I thought it was closed in any case.
I can only suggest that we ended up here as the result of over-reaction to my aside that I wasn't immediately impressed by Liz Carroll's clips and the onslaught on my integrity that followed.
This bit seemed a broad generalization, "... *many* who provide little or nothing about themselves ..." This may seem the case when breezing through the discussions (it takes time to get to know someone*). We have our share of them. As for the lot of us lunatics; be careful what you ask for. Don't take my word for it. Have a look at a few profiles, Dr. Dow, ceolachan ... There really is some diversity here.
* Ian, some of my favourite times on the Mustard Board were back when SoundLantern was up & running. Trad musicians were able to upload recordings of their playing. Then it ran out of money. Now most of the links here are to videos on YouTube. I much preferred Sound Lantern.
Ben, perhaps. But more often than not, when I turn to someone's biog to get a flavour of who they are, where they are and where they might be coming from, outlook-wise I draw a blank. Not in everyone's case,. I agree.
The suits don't get it...
The suits don't get it...
Just been watching a few Liz Carroll clips - can't say that her playing is the most appealing to my ears, but what struck me more about this clip is the complete and utter failure of the audience to 'get' what they were hearing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OPoIosUBr9Y
Not sure whether that is a salutory reminder about what an inward-looking little bubble it is that we all inhabit (I refrained from using the word 'community') or just how dulled the senses of the suits surrounding Power actually are...
Ian
# Posted on April 23rd 2011 by ian stock
Re: The suits don't get it...
I saw this clip in 2009 and I remember wondering at that time already why these two were playing at this dinner at all - because Liz Carroll is from Chicago, as she says, and because this is meant to be a connection to Obama in some way? The suits and the power brokers obviously have other things on their minds, not surprisingly - as you can see in their faces. I rather think that this musical interlude was exceptionally badly chosen in terms of place and time - also by the musicians themselves. In surroundings such as these it is completely impossible for any kind of atmosphere to develop. Why weren´t they part of an evening concert, open air maybe? Just anything else would have been better than this! So there is no reason to worry about any "inward-looking bubble" (which, I think, we do NOT inhabit); this clip shows in an exemplary way what happens when two worlds - alien to each other - collide.
# Posted on April 23rd 2011 by alexweger
Re: The suits don't get it...
I don't know... the tracks on Frank Gavin's latest CD recorded at a DC government function attended by O'bama and his right hand man fighting Joe Biden sounds like the audience was pretty into it - at one point you can hear one of them loudly "HUP" - sounds like that audience was pretty into it --
Now the reaction traditional Irish music receives in China - that would be an interesting youtube vid --
# Posted on April 23rd 2011 by Reeds Munson
Re: The suits don't get it...
http://www.thesession.org/recordings/display/1876
"The Chieftains" played in China over 30 years ago.
# Posted on April 23rd 2011 by Kenny
Re: The suits don't get it...
>>So there is no reason to worry about any "inward-looking bubble"
Not 'worrying' about it - just have been giving some thought to the relationships that 'special interest groups' have to the wider world. For example, the fact that so many people we meet, whether virtually or in reality, play a trad-related instrument totally distorts the true statistical unusualness of people who do so - with the possible exception of the 'motherlands' of the music. In my perception, the mandolin is hardly an unusual instrument, but the reactions I normally get when people find out that I play it would suggest otherwise. Even more so for my wife and her GHB.
Likewise, the paradigm of this music is in so many ways totally alien to people from other walks of life/ genres of music that we can so easily forget why so many newcomes struggle with it. The non-reaction of those Suits challenged my assumption that just about everyone responds intuitively to these rhythms and tunes when they hear them...
# Posted on April 23rd 2011 by ian stock
Re: The suits don't get it...
Four yobs in High Guinness Hats would have got more attention. Maybe the suits were put off by the guitar playing?
# Posted on April 23rd 2011 by overbeyond
Re: The suits don't get it...
The suits don't get it..., they never do.
# Posted on April 23rd 2011 by Solidmahog
Re: The suits don't get it...
You are at a reception. You know nothing about Irish Music, Maybe you might recognize Danny Boy. or The Fields of Athenry. A fiddle player and a guitar player come on and start to play a selection of fast reels. Is she any good? . I suppose she is but the music she is playing sounds all the same and seems to go on forever. I start to get bored.
I'm at the same reception and the last time I wore a suit was at a funeral ten years ago. However I know a lot about Irish music and I am even aware of the fiddler's reputation. She plays a selection of reels. I haven't heard them before and they seem to blend into one another I'm having trouble trying to separate them remember how they go. She changes key and I know' she has changed to another tune. I am now also starting to get bored.
What a shame she didn't start with something slow and then break into the fast stuff.
# Posted on April 23rd 2011 by Free Reed
Re: The suits don't get it...
Musicians are just the hired entertainment to those fools stuffing their faces. I bet Liz and John could do a better job of running the country. And play at the same time.
# Posted on April 23rd 2011 by gam
Re: The suits don't get it...
I was hesitating to say so, given the esteem Liz Carroll seems to be held in on here, but her choice of tunes didn't seem very well judged, and I don't find that guitar playing very sympathetic either.
A case of someone too specialised mis-judging her audience? That said, I was still surprised by the level of indifference of the audience.
# Posted on April 23rd 2011 by ian stock
Re: The suits don't get it...
"given the esteem Liz Carroll seems to be held in on here" Ian Stock
Liz Carroll? Get a hold of the Liz Carroll album "Liz Carroll" and find out why.
# Posted on April 23rd 2011 by Solidmahog
Re: The suits don't get it...
Will do so Solidmahog - but presumably there is still enough latitiude allowed in the Fascist Republic of Mustard Board for people to express their personal preferences?
Maybe the clips I have been watching aren't representative, and I need to look/listen further - but from what I have seen so far, I am just not that keen on her sound or choice of tunes.
# Posted on April 23rd 2011 by ian stock
Re: The suits don't get it...
"I bet Liz and John could do a better job of running the country."
Would Liz keep reminding the electorate as to what part of Ireland her parents came from?
I wouldn't expect everybody to be giving it laldy on the dance floor. Most of the folk seem to be acknowledging the presence of the duo - just three guys having a blether later on seemed indifferent . |Who knows, they may have been discussing the pulse, or where Liz is placing her rolls - I doubt it. Compared to some Scottish audiences when trad music is being played, I'd say that White House audience was reasonably attentive.
I mind a certain maths teacher from St Roch's Academy ( with a musical connection) constantly blethering during a Chieftains concert in Glasgow. I came close to throttling him.
# Posted on April 23rd 2011 by Weejie
Re: The suits don't get it...
Could be the clip Ian but horses for courses, I didn't make it past the out of tune pipes at the start.
# Posted on April 23rd 2011 by Solidmahog
Re: The suits don't get it...
Get a copy of "Absolutely Irish" especially where Liz plays with Eileen Ivers and Athena Tergis or check out this link
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uR1l169_mVA
As for the dog-and-pony show, of course Liz is there because she shares Chicago roots with Obama. He gets to show off Irish and Chicago at the same time. Double Bonus Points Score. The rest of them are there only because they have to be seen there.
# Posted on April 23rd 2011 by MorganYYZ
Re: The suits don't get it...
"I was surprised by the indifference of the audience"
Perhaps some perspective is in order. My guess is by month's end, that crowd has sat through 26+ formal lunches and dinners with everything from Tibetan throat singing to hula dancers. I would imagine their bums are completely flattened and ears dulled after a mere three months in office. Formality can crush the life out of music regardless of the genre.
# Posted on April 23rd 2011 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: The suits don't get it...
I saw that clip ages ago and we thought it was a good laugh. I wouldn't bother overanalyzing it. I felt sorry for Liz and John -- it looked like the world's most awkward gig. You got to give the Administration credit, though -- they found tasteful, highly respected trad players for the St. Pat's Day Gig; not the usual schmaltzy sh*te singing of "Danny Boy" which every true blooded Irish-American in the room would have related to but it still would have been sh*t.
# Posted on April 23rd 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: The suits don't get it...
if it's not some 'puke in your beer' drinking song or a schlocky, rebel song most people seem to not even hear it.
# Posted on April 23rd 2011 by B Rad
Re: The suits don't get it...
I was told the first "F" in "BIFFO" stood for something else. Rhymes with "sucker".
# Posted on April 23rd 2011 by Kenny
Re: The suits don't get it...
Not everyone likes trad. I can live with that
# Posted on April 23rd 2011 by harmonic miner
Re: The suits don't get it...
That was a very uncomfortable room. Politics is so much pomp and posturing it's a shame someone tried to marry it with entertainment even for an occasion. I don't think anyone there was even supposed to be listening, only attending. Reminds me of lunch at the Elks Club with my grandparents.
# Posted on April 23rd 2011 by gravelwalks
Re: The suits don't get it...
For a lot of the time the fiddle and guitar seemed to be grinding like tectonic plates on a first date. Towards the end it seemed to gell better. I get the impression that Liz Carrol is (musically) very idiosyncratic and an accompanist who hasn't known her for yonks is likely not to get her groove.
Who'd be a suit? I'm glad so many do, it lets me off from having to be one out of noblesse oblige. I suppose half the time these people are trying to angle their way into the limelight in whichever way is advantageous to them, and the other half they're trying to keep their heads down and be quite indistinguishable from each other so that no-one can get a handle on them.
This will have been the case here. A whoop or a wolf-whistle would have been recorded and the perpetrator's contorted facial features captured in a still for the world and his wife to contemplate and judge America, the Obama administration, etc., by. (An awful lot of people haven't got a life...)
Brian Cowen is The Walrus Of Liz Carrol.
# Posted on April 23rd 2011 by nicholas
Re: The suits don't get it...
I mean, he's built like The Walls Of Liscarrol.
# Posted on April 23rd 2011 by nicholas
Re: The suits don't get it...
The most embarrassing thing about this video is the two middle-aged people (male & female) eating green shamrock sugar cookies in the front row, while not even making eye contact with the performers.
What I do love about this video is Liz Carroll's grace and dignity, if she was disappointed with the audiences' reception, she doesn't show it! She's blasting away the tunes with passion and expression anyways! (Same goes for John as well).
I was shocked Obama wasn't at least bobbing his head up and down, I thought he had a reputation as a music lover. But then again maybe it was difficult for him to enjoy the tunes since the camera man was right in his face the whole time!
Solidmahog said, "The suits don't get it..., they never do." Which is a brilliant comment. That's totally why they are called suits! Otherwise we would call them gentleman.
P.S. Thanks for the video ian, very interesting stuff.
# Posted on April 23rd 2011 by jcawley
Re: The suits don't get it...
I'm sure the party after was much more comfortable. Obama shaking hands with Liz Carroll was probably letting her know he'd bring the Jameson's ~ & there'd be no photographers.
# Posted on April 23rd 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: The suits don't get it...
"The most embarrassing thing about this video is the two middle-aged people (male & female) eating green shamrock sugar cookies in the front row, while not even making eye contact with the performers. "
Eye contact would have been rather difficult, as Liz Carroll hardly takes her eyes off the fiddle and John Doyle hardly takes his eyes off Liz Carroll. Is the age of the couple relevant?
# Posted on April 23rd 2011 by Weejie
Re: The suits don't get it...
Weejie, you are correct. The age is irrelevant, now that I think about it, this described just about everyone in the room, so it's not even helpful if it differentiated anything about them. Plus, I should have written "They hardly look in the general direction of the music-making."
# Posted on April 23rd 2011 by jcawley
Re: The suits don't get it...
""They hardly look in the general direction of the music-making." "
Would you say that John Doyle's dad looks more enthusiastic?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4Ow7-xAcG0
BTW, the couple at the front at the White House do look for more than a moment at the duo - can't say whether they are attempting to make eye contact. The camera is in the wrong place.
# Posted on April 23rd 2011 by Weejie
Re: The suits don't get it...
Has anyone else had the thought that its a blessing that they don't get it?
They would only want to tax it, nationalise it or abolish it.
Best to keep them out of it altogether in my view.
# Posted on April 23rd 2011 by ormepipes
Re: The suits don't get it...
No, if they truly got it they'd realize what they have been missing. Then they'd learn to play tunes & spend all their time looking for sessions.
# Posted on April 23rd 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: The suits don't get it...
"can't say that her playing is the most appealing"
"I know a lot about Irish music and I am even aware of the fiddler's reputation. She plays a selection of reels. I haven't heard them before and they seem to blend into one another I'm having trouble trying to separate them remember how they go. She changes key and I know' she has changed to another tune. I am now also starting to get bored."
"her choice of tunes didn't seem very well judged, and I don't find that guitar playing very sympathetic either"
"I am just not that keen on her sound or choice of tunes"
"Liz plays well enough in that style, bit jittery for my taste"
This is the kind of brainless cloth-eared unimginative blasphemy that precludes me from ever being or wishing to be part of a community with such feckin numpties as you lot.
# Posted on April 23rd 2011 by ...
Re: The numps don't get it...
Llig you are one rude bastard. Sometimes you're knee-jerk & unimaginative in your responses. But, when you are spot on you're damn good.
# Posted on April 24th 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: The suits don't get it...
lol I'm going to bookmark llig's history so I can always get straight to the funny stuff...
# Posted on April 24th 2011 by Dr. Dow
Re: The suits don't get it...
This is the kind of brainless cloth-eared unimginative blasphemy that precludes me from ever being or wishing to be part of a community with such feckin numpties as you lot
Looks like we are all out of step but our Mickey. Must be sad to be a loner !
# Posted on April 24th 2011 by Free Reed
Re: The suits don't get it...
Like all communities, this one has its share of grumpy gits and curmudgeons, along with its morons....wait... wrong thread.
# Posted on April 24th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: The suits don't get it...
C'mon, did you two even read the quotations Gill posted.
# Posted on April 24th 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: The suits don't get it...
Yes, hence adding "morons" to my post.
# Posted on April 24th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: The suits don't get it...
Do any of you play at sessions in Ireland? Have any of you played at sessions in Ireland?
Believe me the audience in this clip at the White House are attentive, appreciative, and rapt compared to the standard crowd in an Irish pub. And qlas we have the same behaviour, the pub carries on business during the performance, the music is regarded as "wall paper" music or "piped" music in the background, much as it is in this clip.
But at least the audience here are not actually shouting and yelling and laughing.
# Posted on April 24th 2011 by bodhran bliss
Re: The suits don't get it...
bb, do you think Liz Carroll & John Doyle would get that reception at your local pub? BTW, I have heard Liz Carroll yelling & laughing once when she was the one in the audience.
# Posted on April 24th 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: The suits don't get it...
" I have heard Liz Carroll yelling & laughing once when she was the one in the audience."
I mentioned the guy at the Chieftains concert earlier - but I also recall some weel kent Gàidhlig singers along with a weel kent Sean-nós singer sitting on the stage at the Celtic Connections festival club babbling away while Paddy Keenan was playing. Paddy wasn't too happy. Around the same period, I asked Martin Hayes if he minded one or two flash shots taken during a performance. "The least of my worries" he said making an obvious stare towards a group of musicians making much noise at a nearby table.
# Posted on April 24th 2011 by Weejie
It was an embellished story ...
O.K. this time I lied. Liz Carroll was performing or *technically* she was talking with the audience. A different musician, from the audience, was yelling & laughing ... but it was Joanie Madden & they were both behaving like little kids. If you haven't been around Joanie Madden here is an example of what happens when the band is having a good time during a performance ~ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61elxwsdhX0
# Posted on April 24th 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: The suits don't get it...
The people in that room have no souls. They are hollow empty shells. They are the type of people who "don't listen to music" when asked about their listening habits. They don't do comedy either and paintings are judged, by them, only by the price tag. They don't own pets. They scare children when they laugh because it's not really laughter it's something quite different and leaves a faint smell of sulpher when it's over. Their hands are very soft and sweaty, plump. They work sixteen hour days every day and each one has cheated on their spouse with staffers male , female both and niether. They are an ugly ugly lot of rot. Shun them. Go not near them or you too will linger in the eternal wasteland looped like a noose by the Washington beltway.
# Posted on April 24th 2011 by shanty
shanty, are you OK:?
# Posted on April 24th 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: The suits don't get it...
Have none of you ever played at a reception full of professional people before? We call it being "musical wallpaper."
# Posted on April 24th 2011 by AlBrown
Re: The suits don't get it...
Yes why do you ask? I wouldn't've gone near that room without garlic, crosses and Holy water. God bless Liz and John.
# Posted on April 24th 2011 by shanty
Re: The suits don't get it...
Politicians are more vile than crack whores, pimps and Michael Vick.
# Posted on April 24th 2011 by shanty
...
Goodnight!
# Posted on April 24th 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: The suits don't get it...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJKFQLvLSvQ&feature=related
# Posted on April 24th 2011 by Weejie
Re: The suits don't get it...
Nice one. Weejie. His hairdresser's fees alone would keep me going.
# Posted on April 24th 2011 by gam
Re: The suits don't get it...
>>This is the kind of brainless cloth-eared unimginative blasphemy that precludes me from ever being or wishing to be part of a community with such feckin numpties as you lot.
Llig, generally I respect your comments even when I don't agree with them, but that has to be the most UNMUSICAL thing you have ever said.
Since when did this music require everyone to have precisely the same views? I didn't say Liz Carroll is not a good musician - I said that from what I have seen, personally I like her style and choice of material less than some other players. That is a completely fair and informed comment - in which other kind of music would it deserve such an ignorant response?
# Posted on April 24th 2011 by ian stock
Re: The suits don't get it...
>>The people in that room have no souls. They are hollow empty shells...They scare children when they laugh ... They work sixteen hour days every day ...Shun them. Go not near them
Chance would be a fine thing, Shanty. Unfortunately, they don't only inhabit the world of politics, even places where you might expect more humane values to hold sway, if you get my drift...
# Posted on April 24th 2011 by ian stock
Re: The suits don't get it...
Don't take Michael too seriously, Ian.
# Posted on April 24th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: The suits don't get it...
"Chance would be a fine thing, Shanty. Unfortunately, they don't only inhabit the world of politics, even places where you might expect more humane values to hold sway, if you get my drift..." ian stock
Aye, hard to imagine llig in a suit ; >)
# Posted on April 24th 2011 by Solidmahog
Re: The suits don't get it...
No I won't, Emily. Just a pity when a (reputedly) good and thoughtful musician comes out with something so dumb.
# Posted on April 24th 2011 by ian stock
Re: The suits don't get it...
>>Aye, hard to imagine llig in a suit ; >)
Now, now - that wasn't what I meant...
# Posted on April 24th 2011 by ian stock
Re: The suits don't get it...
Bob Byrd plays the fiddle but so does Old Nick and both were in the KKK so I rest my case....
# Posted on April 24th 2011 by shanty
Re: The suits don't get it...
Byrd 'played' the fiddle.
# Posted on April 24th 2011 by shanty
Re: The suits don't get it...
"Bob Byrd plays the fiddle but so does Old Nick and both were in the KKK so I rest my case...."
Byrd had a history of endorsing and then denouncing various beliefs and doctrines. Someone who learned by past mistakes.
His statements during the Bush administration regarding Iraq are quite noteworthy......However, that's slipping into political discussion. Let's just say that Liz Carroll would have benefited from the gig at the White House and the response from the suited folk would be a relatively small issue. Just the fact that two traditional musicians are given such a gig is a positive step.
# Posted on April 24th 2011 by Weejie
Re: The suits don't get it...
"Which ever way the wind blows" is not a good trait for a person esp. one taking on a leadership role in society. That is one of the many reasons why I hold politicians in such low esteem. They are hollow.
# Posted on April 24th 2011 by shanty
Re: The suits don't get it...
""Which ever way the wind blows""
Byrd certainly didn't always go with the flow. Not that it's relevant.
# Posted on April 24th 2011 by Weejie
Re: The suits don't get it...
If you're not familiar with Irish music, a set of fast reels would have an effect similar to a fast train going by - an indistinct, blurry "whoosh". When I first started checking out ITM I remember thinking "I can't listen that fast".
# Posted on April 24th 2011 by michaelr
Re: The suits don't get it...
The set is awesome. I'd encourage everyone to turn the volume up, close your eyes and LISTEN!!! I dig the wildness of her playing- totally in control but sounding close to out of control (like a roller coaster) and Doyles playing is fantastic and reminds me of the guitarist that played with Sean Maguire on a couple of youtube clips-fantastic stuff. The audience is a sad distraction, as they are in many instances....
# Posted on April 24th 2011 by shanty
Re: The suits don't get it...
A sad distraction, indeed, shanty. The audience is irrelevant, unless they are assaulting the players, screeching into their phones, or otherwise behaving like a typical bar crowd on Saturday night. Most people outside of the diddley-trail faithful do not have the musical curiosity to attend to and enjoy even a short set of reels. Unless you slip in the Star Wars theme to get their attention, your typical random crowd will get antsy after the first time through the second tune. You can see it in their eyes; they lose even the ability to clap off-tempo, and you realise that your best hope is a spectacular wardrobe malfunction.
So the cookie eating, Blackberry-checking crowd in the clip are at least benign. However, being treated like the embarrassingly untalented child asked to play their piano piece for assembled relatives at a family gathering must have been a bit of a trial for Liz and John. However, I'm sure that they both have overcome the shame and disillusionment, and gotten on with their lives as best they could.
So, what do you think, folks? Is a set of reels with an absent audience a performance?
# Posted on April 24th 2011 by Michele Sims
Re: The suits don't get it...
Nice try, Michele. I have given the clip and Liz in general several more listens since Llig's earlier admonishment
but I'm afraid I can't get too excited either. Technically brilliant, of course, but not very appealing to my ear, and I've been listening for a long time.
That was the 'sub-text' of my OP: while *somebody* knew precisely who to call to get one of the top acts for the occasion, I actually wonder whether they are just too specialised for a lay audience. I wonder whether someone like The Chieftains or Danu would have got a better response, simply because unlike Liz, they conform more to lay-people's expectations of what Irish music 'should' sound like.
Also fruitful contemplation for current discussions here about the kind of venues our own modest outfit should seek to play in...there's a bit of a debate going on aboutwhether to aim for the more prevalent pub circuit where the audience would be non-specialist, and would have to be treated accordingly, or whether to hope to get ourselves on the fewer and further between, but more knowledgeable music venue and even festival scene - if we can.
# Posted on April 24th 2011 by ian stock
Re: The suits don't get it...
i think the audience is fine. it's a luncheon. have you ever played for people eating?
i don't think they should have done a concert instead, i think it's really cool to have live music on st. patrick's day at lunch in the whitehouse. martin hayes and dennis cahill played again this year...
i happened to run into dennis cahill the day after, and he said that the people were wonderful. the secret service was joking around about some of the crazy politicians (on both sides). meanwhile congressmen that fox and cnn would swear were old enemies were kidding around and having fun, off camera.
two big names even came up and told martin and dennis that they had been "following their career." to which dennis was quick to say, "we're following yours too." sounds like a great afternoon, and i bet liz and john had an equally interesting and memorable time.
i'm sure that if the video comes out for this year's it will look as dreary and "horrible" as the previous year's video.....
# Posted on April 24th 2011 by daiv
Re: The suits don't get it...
"I wonder whether someone like The Chieftains or Danu would have got a better response, simply because unlike Liz, they conform more to lay-people's expectations of what Irish music 'should' sound like."
Ian, I don't even know where to begin. A luncheon is a difficult gig ... the room is packed with tables, bus people, photographers... Liz & John were probably only given time for the one set of tunes, booking a duo seems right because of the limited space ...
A completely different type of White House gig would be the performances for the Gershwin prize which is not just for the suits & is more about the music.
# Posted on April 24th 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: The suits don't get it...
Yes of course, Ben - I'm just pulling wings off flies, really. All the other explanations are more than adequate, though I still think some of the suits are pretty suspect, not to show at least a small reaction to what is going on. Genre of music is almost irrelevant - what kind of philistine can sit through live music without exhibiting even the slightest interest?
To my ear, Liz Carroll sounds a bit removed from the more 'typical' Irish fiddle player. My experience is that most people I encounter have at least some dim awareness of what that means, and I wonder to what extent that audence's expectations simply weren't met.
Always a tricky one for people proposing to play to an audience - remain 'true' to your music, or tailor it to the audience...?
# Posted on April 24th 2011 by ian stock
Re: The suits don't get it...
To me, her style almost has jazz overtones to it, and I don't find Doyle's guitar playing in the least bit subtle or sympathetic to the music. Yes, the two work together well, because they both seem to have that same jazzy overtone, but it's not my taste and wonder if that also contributed to the lack of reaction.
Not sure the sound quality on that clip really helped, either - but I am a bit bemused that I found it on their offical website - possibly not the best advertisement for their music (as opposed to who they've met)?
# Posted on April 24th 2011 by ian stock
Re: The suits don't get it...
Ian-your point that Ms. Carroll is not the typical Irish fiddler is why I would expect her to show up playing at the White House for a fellow Chicago resident. And I really doubt that she would have blown off the opportunity to perform for Obama at the White House because the audience was not quite up on their traditional music.
Just to contrast with the 'normal' musical world: I went to a performance by the local symphony last week. It has been years since I have been to the symphony, and I had forgotten how formal the audiences are. I thought they totally rocked the Max Bruch concerto (soloist was wonderful) as well as the Eroica; everyone sat very still, and then politely applauded at the end. The concert got rave reviews, but you would never know it sitting in the hall. But that is just how it is done. And I would imaging that the DC crowd is more used to that sort of behavior at a performance. (For the record, I did not get up and dance, yell 'hup' between movements, or disgrace my companions in any way.)
# Posted on April 24th 2011 by Michele Sims
Re: The suits don't get it...
Of course Liz Carroll sounds more than a bit removed from the more 'typical' Irish fiddle player. It's because your 'typical' Irish fiddle player is hopeless ... and Liz Carroll is bloody brilliant.
# Posted on April 24th 2011 by ...
Re: The suits don't get it...
Well now Micháel, there might be a few 'typical' Irish fiddle players on here who would take umbrage to that statement, Still, it's nice to see you nearly give an 'opinion' on the Thread rather than offer a tirade of abuse about those who do..
# Posted on April 25th 2011 by Free Reed
The phone call between D.C. & Chicago
Ring ... ring ... ring ...
Liz Carroll: Hello, this is Liz.
White House St. Patrick's Coordinator: We've a gig for you & Mr. Doyle. Are you available noonish on the 17th? They'll be photos with the President & 1st Lady.
LC: John doesn't have to sing "Danny Boy"?
WHSPC: No worries, the Secret Service are going to lead the songs. A handful of reels, perhaps?
LC: The usual stuffed shirts, I suppose?
WHSPC: (rolls eyes) Yes, they'll come for the free wine.
LC: Well ... he is from Chicago ... Sure, tell the 1st couple we'll pencil them in.
WHSPC: Grand! What a relief. The typical Irish bands were all booked.
# Posted on April 25th 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: The suits don't get it...
"The typical Irish bands were all booked."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=emf8--htsDU
You see where Carroll & Doyle went wrong?
# Posted on April 25th 2011 by Weejie
Re: The suits don't get it...
Pffft. Dead obvious to me. The suits were eagerly awaiting the sing-along.
# Posted on April 25th 2011 by Michele Sims
Re: The suits don't get it...
Nancy Pelosi was busy capturing the tunes on TunePal; in an attempt to learn them before the next session.
# Posted on April 25th 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: The suits don't get it...
They're not Irish, they can't be Irish, they don't do Danny Boy,
Or Tura Lura Lura, or even Irish Eyes....
# Posted on April 25th 2011 by AlBrown
Re: The suits don't get it...
Ian!!! I haven't heard that phrase since "The Big Sleep" This is for you! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LwdYg9XGAl0
# Posted on April 25th 2011 by shanty
Re: The suits don't get it...
Ian-"what kind of philistine can sit through live music without exhibiting even the slightest interest?"
I'm telling you people they ARE INHUMAN!!! THEY DRINK EMBALMING FLUID CHASED WITH MARTINIS, blood clots and strychnine! What they call entertainment is only whispered at in the back alleys of Honolulu's Hotel St. THEY ARE VILE. I can not even hint at the malevolence of these creatures.
oh and uh....Happy Easter to the Catholics and Happy Ishtar to the pagans!
# Posted on April 25th 2011 by shanty
Re: The suits don't get it...
"THEY DRINK EMBALMING FLUID CHASED WITH MARTINIS, blood clots and strychnine! "
Sounds like a typical night out for Shane MacGowan.
# Posted on April 25th 2011 by Weejie
Re: The suits don't get it...
"what kind of philistine can sit through live music without exhibiting even the slightest interest?" (Ian)
The kind of people who provided work for musicians before recorded music was available. Not unlike the kind of people who go out for a meal or drink at a place where some guy has been hired to play quietly in a corner.
# Posted on April 25th 2011 by David50
Re: The suits don't get it...
What kind of person can do an introduction so transparently read off a card ? Surely it would have been better to have the introduction done by someone with the ability to pick up a brief and work from it without showing that they hadn't much clue what they were talking about. Do those folks know any people like that ?
# Posted on April 25th 2011 by David50
Re: The suits don't get it...
David50---"The kind of people who provided work for musicians before recorded music was available" --You mean like for dances, of course, where people are moving right? I'm sure that's the earliest need for a musician. 'Sit and listen like a stone' came along much much later.....
What's not seen in the video is when, after the musicians leave, They all pull the masks off to reveal the mutant faces hidden beneath!
# Posted on April 25th 2011 by shanty
Re: The suits don't get it...
>>Of course Liz Carroll sounds more than a bit removed from the more 'typical' Irish fiddle player. It's because your 'typical' Irish fiddle player is hopeless ... and Liz Carroll is bloody brilliant.
Llig - I meant stylistically - as the rest of that post showed. I don't disagree that she is an excellent player, though I'm not (yet...) really in a position to judge 'brilliant' on the fiddle.
There's a difference between assessing quality and actually liking something. Now please advise, is there a jazz influence in there? (I'm thinking a bit of Grappelli or the like...)
Shame you have such a low opinion of the exponents of the style you love...
# Posted on April 25th 2011 by ian stock
Re: The suits don't get it...
>>haven't heard that phrase since "The Big Sleep" This is for you!
Thanks Shanty - nice one.
Ian
# Posted on April 25th 2011 by ian stock
Re: The suits don't get it...
Liz is brilliant. I don't know if she's jazz influenced, but she is very friendly and you ever get the chance to meet her, at Celtic Connections or some such thing, I'm sure she'd happily tell you what her influences were.
She's been playing Irish music since she was a kid, won the All-Ireland when she was 18.
# Posted on April 25th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: The suits don't get it...
>>everyone sat very still, and then politely applauded at the end. ... I would imaging that the DC crowd is more used to that sort of behavior at a performance.
Good point Michele - hadn't considered that. Should have, too, being a classic concert-goer.
>> I did not get up and dance, yell 'hup' between movements, or disgrace my companions in any way.)
Thank heavens. Could have been interesting though. I did once have a student throw up all over the three rows of people in front of him in the middle of the slow movement of Rachmaninov's Piano Concerto no.2 at The Barbican in London - which had interesting consequences. It has never been the same piece of music since...
Likewise, have been in an audience on the receiving end of Angus Grant's sarcasm for *failing* to get up and dance in the aisles...
# Posted on April 25th 2011 by ian stock
Re: The suits don't get it...
While there are thousands and thousands of fiddle players who play in what could be described as a "typical" Irish style, every single one of the good players play in what can only be described as their own style. For that's at the heart of what this music is about. It's the expression of ones' self, through the medium of the tradition.
The "Irish Style" is a clone factory. Good players just don't play like that. You can spot who's who by listening to half a bar. Good players are exceptionally distinctive. They are self stylists
And Liz Carroll is a pristine example. And it just plain bloody annoys me when people spout such uninformed tripe as "Liz plays well enough in that style". It's such a fundamental admission of cluelesness
# Posted on April 25th 2011 by ...
Re: The suits don't get it...
And, Ian, if you come to Edinburgh for a tune, expect wall to wall Liz Carroll tunes, so get learning them ... all.
# Posted on April 25th 2011 by ...
Re: The suits don't get it...
Yes, that is very well said, Michael.
The best players, the brilliant players, have very individual styles and always have done. Along with Liz Carroll, listen to Tommy Peoples, Johnny Doran, Johnny Doherty, Tommy Potts, Willie Clancy, Seamus Ennis, Paddy Fahey, Bobby Casey.... The list goes on, and on, and on. They don't sound like the "typical" Irish player. That's cause they're not "typical" Irish players at all! Your "typical" Irish player is your average musician who can(hopefully) play a nice tune down at the pub or at a ceilidh or even a gig, but isn't ever likely to find their name in the above list.
# Posted on April 25th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: The suits don't get it...
"What's not seen in the video is when, after the musicians leave, They all pull the masks off to reveal the mutant faces hidden beneath! "
You've been reading too much Icke.
# Posted on April 25th 2011 by Weejie
Re: The suits don't get it...
There's no Jazz influence with Liz Carroll, just Liz influence. Like I say, give Liz Carroll "Liz Carroll" a whirl. There's enough magic on that album to get her point. Me, I like her playing a lot.
# Posted on April 25th 2011 by Solidmahog
Re: The suits don't get it...
Shanty - Not having much attention paid has probably been the lot of court musicians since courts and musicians were invented. I thought the rude bit was not either openly reading the introduction off a card or putting a bit of effort in to pretend she knew what she was talking about - that doesn't seem to be a big effort for people in politics.
# Posted on April 25th 2011 by David50
Re: The suits don't get it...
I don't think the guy nearest camera at the left (almost as bald as me) had a mutant face underneath. The blank staring eyes and greenish complexion suggested he was expecting the waiter to come round with his plateful of brainz.
Doyle was playing geeky guitar-tech rock and roll. Pretty irrelevant to Doherty's tunes (or to any kind of traditional music from anywhere), but it made a lot of sense in that situation since that kind of music is what suits understand.
# Posted on April 25th 2011 by Jack Campin
Re: The suits don't get it...
... Hey yeah, lets all slag every one who wears a suit too, they all all twits aren't they. And that Doyle fella, he's rubbish too eh. Ooooh it's all so not to my taste.
# Posted on April 25th 2011 by ...
Re: The suits don't get it...
"... Hey yeah, lets all slag every one who wears a suit too, they all all twits aren't they." llig
Now now, just because you have to suffer the indignity of crumpling the trousers of your suit by using bicycle clips, don't take it out on the rest of us. Anyone would think you're easter egg went down the wrong road.
Anyway it's not the suit that maketh the suit, it's the quality of the being within.
# Posted on April 25th 2011 by Solidmahog
Re: The suits don't get it...
aargh. I got my Liz's mixed up. They're both great.
I have heard far too many Doyles (llig is doubtless aware that there are several of them in Edinburgh). I don't see the point of any of them.
# Posted on April 25th 2011 by Jack Campin
Re: The suits don't get it...
>> Ian, if you come to Edinburgh
It's not "if", Llig, it's "when". You have been warned
>>Good players are exceptionally distinctive. They are self stylists
I think all players, other than perhaps outright beginners are. Even I have my own style - I just happen not to like it very much! Better musicians probably have more choice and control over that style; I have still to find that I can like the choices Liz Carroll makes. Sometimes technically brilliant people let that brilliance get in the way of a rounded performance.
>>For that's at the heart of what this music is about. It's the expression of ones' self, through the medium of the tradition.
Well I could beg to differ on that, too. IMHO it's a very self-indulgent view. For me, it's as much about the way one interacts with others, both musically and socially. And it's also about (for want of a better word) a musicological fascination with the music, of which playing it is the logical peak.
>> It's such a fundamental admission of cluelesness
I've said it before and I'll say it again - easy to say when you have lived a life surrounded by the stuff. Try coming and living in rural Essex (or indeed anywhere where the music is not part of the everyday fabric) for twenty years and then tell me what you think.
Don't be so harsh on others' ignorance, they can't *always* help it - at least we are here to learn... That's why I asked whether we could meet in the summer - the further the learning curve - not to be put down for what I don't know...
>>Doyle was playing geeky guitar-tech rock and roll. Pretty irrelevant to Doherty's (Carroll's?) tunes (or to any kind of traditional music from anywhere)
I'm glad I'm not the only one who thought that. An ignorant view from Mr. Campin? I don't think so.
Ian
# Posted on April 25th 2011 by ian stock
Re: The suits don't get it...
Yeah yeah, John Doyle plays in "that" style too.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQqq3e03EBQ
# Posted on April 25th 2011 by ...
Re: The suits don't get it...
What's really annoying me more and more about this thread is the fixation with superficial similarities coupled with dismal dismissal of brilliance in the name of personal taste where the reality is simply a lack of understand.
It's very frustrating, I can't make you hear it, understand it. You have to make your own efforts and be less quick to dismiss.
# Posted on April 25th 2011 by ...
Re: The suits don't get it...
"aargh. I got my Liz's mixed up. They're both great." Maybe Nancy Pelosi was reading from a card to avoid such errors - and she is not a trad Irish buff.
# Posted on April 25th 2011 by Weejie
Re: The suits don't get it...
ha ha
# Posted on April 25th 2011 by ...
Re: The suits don't get it...
Llig - we have drifted far from the OP - which was actually about audiences, not Liz Carroll, and secondly about the fact that - just perhaps - even a great player can sometimes mis-judge their audience.
But that aside, I had been trying to find out more about her playing, so went to her website and that was the first video clip I saw. Hardly a great recommendation, despite the obvious technical excellence. I can cope with not liking *everyone* who happens to be technically good. I even like some people who are not technically good.
But in fairness to your argument, I have spent some more time. First, I went back through all of the other clips I looked at. Here they are:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtH4aGb04Og&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRU-Yn_RPJQ&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4Ow7-xAcG0&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1hDq7zV7rM&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SqA63tFqPN0&feature=related
I went mostly for her current partnership as best view of the current state of play. See a pattern? I saw something that was not really my cup of tea.
I have now gone looking further, including listening to what clips All Celtic Music will allow from her discography. I can see that there is a difference, and I prefer the recordings, particuarly some of her stuff from the mid '90's. So maybe it's just the direction she's gone in recently? Or maybe it's actually a combination of poor sound quality and what I consider to be possibly unsympathetic accompaniment on those clips that is the real culprit?
I like what little I can hear of her Lake Effect and Double Play albums.
# Posted on April 25th 2011 by ian stock
Re: The suits don't get it...
>>dismal dismissal of brilliance in the name of personal taste
Please read more carefully. At no point did I dismiss her technical brilliance. But I still prefer both Kiri te Kanawa and Angela Gheorgiou to Maria Callas. Sometimes there's more to it than techincal brilliance.
# Posted on April 25th 2011 by ian stock
Re: The suits don't get it...
>>dismal dismissal of brilliance in the name of personal taste
Please read more carefully. At no point did I even mention her "technical" brilliance. Technique is irrelevant
# Posted on April 25th 2011 by ...
Re: The suits don't get it...
...and while I'm at it, there is a contradiction between playing as a means of self-expression and appreciating (only) technical brilliance. Plenty of people do the former without having the latter.
# Posted on April 25th 2011 by ian stock
Re: The suits don't get it...
Cross post
# Posted on April 25th 2011 by ian stock
Re: The suits don't get it...
her "technical" brilliance
Touché!
# Posted on April 25th 2011 by ian stock
Re: The suits don't get it...
Here's a wee vid from 1979, the MC doesn't know Liz and has to ask for her name. The crowd reaction is a little more in step with what I expect also.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2fEOx7ip5U
# Posted on April 25th 2011 by Solidmahog
Shopping list
Buy more popcorn.
# Posted on April 25th 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: The suits don't get it...
When worlds collide.
• Liz Carroll is a dazzler; heart, soul, and exquisite taste to her playing.
• John Doyle is the most imaginative, propulsive trad accompanist around.
• These particular suits-at-the-trough, devouring their tax payer-provided lunches, are the ones Orwell meant when he wrote “some pigs are more equal than others.”
# Posted on April 25th 2011 by NEW Pure Drop® Ear Canal Oil
Re: The suits don't get it...
Confession time:
When I first got into the pipes, people told me to listen to all the great players, Seamus Ennis, Willie Clancy, and a few others. So I did and was a bit like, "They're good but it's not very musical." Their phrasing and timing just sounded a bit off to me, not all nice and friendly and clear like you hear on Planxty records. With players like that, there is a ton going on in each tune that it overwhelms your brain and it feels like you're just hearing a lot of notes. A few years later, I "got" it and could hear the playfulness and skill, freedom and control in their playing. Like with Liz Carroll, there is a depth of complexity to their music and it takes quite a lot of sensitivity and familiarity with the music to even begin taking it all in.
Point being, tastes can change a great deal so long as you're open to hearing new things and thinking, "All these people who seem to be quite knowledgeable about the music think Liz Carroll is amazing. Time to figure out why."
# Posted on April 25th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: The suits don't get it...
Look! I've played in the most famous in the world for the most famous man in the world. Visitors to my web site will surely think I must be really good. It will be good for John too. Stick it on as the first video!
Ah! No.
# Posted on April 25th 2011 by overbeyond
Re: The suits don't get it...
Let us give thanks for the new Congress, and for the new Speaker Of The House. Henceforth, there will be no more collision of worlds; Liz Carroll will ever after enjoy Washington power elite's undivided attention; and there will be no more need to invoke Orwell. Phew!
# Posted on April 25th 2011 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: The suits don't get it...
PS Some of us feel this way about Liz Carroll: There is no God but God, and Liz Carroll is His prophet.
# Posted on April 25th 2011 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: The suits don't get it...
John Doyle, Athena Tergis & Mick Moloney "Bonnie Irish Boy"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7HeG7H3hu94
Liz Carroll & Paul Meehan - Island of Woods
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpFaTsnBFyo
Good posting there, Emily.
# Posted on April 25th 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: The suits don't get it...
"PS Some of us feel this way about Liz Carroll: There is no God but God, and Liz Carroll is His prophet. "
Some might even question the gender of the almighty and give Liz Carroll a promotion.
Each to their own.
# Posted on April 25th 2011 by Weejie
Re: The suits don't get it...
I'm not all knowledgeable - but I enjoy Liz's playing because it sounds energetic and passionate - like she's racing through the hills and getting the car up on two wheels around the turns just for the thrill of it. She sounds like she's having fun while playing and that is infectious. She takes the tune right up to the edge of dangerous. John Doyle is the motor that won't quit - a turbo-hemi riding on race slicks. A pony at a full gallop.
If you're going to play to a room full of stiffs, why not let your musical dogs loose just to keep yourself entertained while playing?
# Posted on April 25th 2011 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: The suits don't get it...
Some nice clips there, Ben. Thanks.
# Posted on April 25th 2011 by ian stock
Re: The suits don't get it...
Ofcourse the suits don't get it, they're playing other games.
We might, reasonably, complain they have no manners either.
# Posted on April 26th 2011 by Guernsey Pete
Re: The suits don't get it...
It seems that its not only the suits that do not get it.
# Posted on April 26th 2011 by brians
Re: The suits don't get it...
as far as i am aware of, any "jazziness" that might show up in her playing is through players like tommy potts (whoi recall is a major influence). give her playing a chance. going on youtube is a great way to find new stuff, but not a great way to develop deep appreciation. get an new album and listen to it for a bit to digest it. then see what you think. start off at the beginning of her career if that's what you think might suit your tastes.
# Posted on April 27th 2011 by daiv
Re: The suits don't get it...
What a ridiculous thread. Post a clip with really bad sound, of a quirky situation to say the least, and then critique the *musicians*?!?!
Ian, you have a lot of listening to do.
# Posted on April 27th 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: The suits don't get it...
Will, the OP was very little to do with the musicians.
Other than a comment about the wisdom of having such a poor clip top on one's website, and the fact that I was not inclined to like it, no critique of the musicians.
Sorry if my personal preferences offend, but I wasn't aware there were rules on here about what one is expected to like.
# Posted on April 27th 2011 by ian stock
Re: The suits don't get it...
Ian, you have to like what the junta here likes or you are unfairly bullied and punished... get used to it or leave.
# Posted on April 27th 2011 by copperplate
Re: The suits don't get it...
Copperplate, it seems you may be correct. I joined here to learn more about the music, but it increasingly seems to me that trad music (at least as represented by MB) has a BIG Achilles’ heel – namely that people haven’t the first idea how to communicate their knowledge. Being told (on numerous occasions) to “just listen” really isn’t helpful to anyone who doesn’t already know what they are listening *for*, let alone what then to DO.
No doubt there are people on here brilliant enough just to hear it for themselves, but ordinary mortals need some guidance. I have been listening to S/ITM music (at least in its more readily available forms) for several decades; I generally have a reasonable music education and ear, but it seems that I have missed almost everything of any importance. Be that as it may - the problem is, when I ask for help, nobody can really explain it. What they are very good at is criticising people who don’t ‘get’ it.
As an educator, that seems pretty unhelpful, but it also leads me to wonder a) how much of this really is one-upmanship about vanishingly small points of order or b) a weakness with the genre, that under the guise of ‘oral tradition’ no one seems able actually to pin anything down.
Some of it seems to be prejudice from people who for whatever reason, may lack more formal musical knowledge. Believe me, that isn’t a virtue, it just makes life more difficult, and it doesn't seem to apply to those pro's who I've encountered. It might help with those (conveniently) indefinable subtleties, which I of course accept are an essential part of this, as any, music - but which can also conveniently be used to exclude the rest of us - and as musical technique it sucks. Even commercial tuition products that I have bought have mostly been poor. Accepted that MB does not set out to be an educational website, but it still ain’t helpful.
There *are* places where this music is taught – I have learned far more about the music from two months on OAIM where they have actually worked out what a learner needs, and take you through it step by step, than much longer on here. Maybe that is as it should be, but the ridicule and dismissal of so many people who ask innocent questions is frankly pretty abhorrent. And I’m not talking about me here.
There are a few people on here who are really helpful, but for instance, when I approached Llig who is clearly a skilled player, with a view to meeting him this summer, he would give me no reassurance that a meeting with him would not be a prickly experience, and I asked him for some tune names that I could learn so that I will be ready for those sessions he knows in Edinburgh. He hasn’t seen fit to reply, except with public insults about my (and others’) taste in playing. Really helpful.
What started out as an innocent comment about a dull-looking audience (read the OP, Will) has turned into a personal criticism of me; why?
I’m reading an interesting book at present – it’s about the way in which pressurised conformism often does nothing more than perpetuate collective idiocy. It has a point.
# Posted on April 27th 2011 by ian stock
Re: The suits don't get it...
>>pressurised conformism often does nothing more than perpetuate collective idiocy>>
classic.
IMO Ian, a number of prolific posters here are actually here to behave in the manner you describe. Thats what gets them off
As regards certain 'members' here being 'good' musicians, hmm what makes you think that? Plenty can talk a good tune.... But demonstrate their ignorance regularly with frankly laughable ,basic fundamental errors.
Sigh... but point those out and all hell breaks loose! Some folk would rather be big fish in a small pond, if the pond gets too big, they need to up their game or accept reality, or of course, simply act in a manner so reprehensible that any bar the most thick skinned vacate ASAP and dont return thereby keeping the pond small enough......It must be hard work racing round trying to maintain pool size and image while having no spare time to reflect on substance.....
# Posted on April 27th 2011 by piobagusfidil
Re: The suits don't get it...
Ian, I think you are being very unfair.
This isn't a teaching site, it is a discussion board for traditional musicians. But when someone does come in with a genuine question, that hasn't been answered a hundred times before and can't be answered by typing three words into Google, you'll find people here genuinely helpful. But what you have to appreciate is that a lot of the questions asked come across as grossly disrespectful to both the music and the musicians. There is a constant trickle of people who come here and say something that amounts to "I'm a competent classical musician, so if you just tell me what I'm supposed to do I'll crack this ITM in no time, it can't be that difficult." Have you any idea how insulting that is to someone who has spent half a lifetime mastering the idiom?
OK, you're an educator, you think everything can be taught, and you're getting frustrated because you don't think the teaching you've come across is very good. That's because this is something that really can't be taught. It's like teaching art - you can teach a kid how to hold a paintbrush, how to mix colours etc. But you can't teach him how to paint a great picture, that has to come from within him. So it is with traditional music. people can teach you some technique, they can teach you some tunes (which is probably analogous to teaching you to paint by numbers) but they can't teach you to make music. That can only come from within, and the only way to nurture it is to listen. And if you need to ask 'what am I supposed to be listening FOR?' you haven't listened enough. That sounds trite, but it is true. You're not listening FOR anything, simply absorbing the feel of the music.
As to your exchange with llig. He's absolutely right. If you need to ask for a tune list so that you can 'learn the tunes' then you are nowhere near ready to play in sessions like Sandy Bell's. Do go along and watch the masters at work, you'll learn a lot. But don't take your instrument. If you do you'll spent the whole evening trying not to look a prat, and will learn nothing. As a classical musician you wouldn't expect to perform your first gig at the Albert Hall with the Halle Orchestra, and traditional music is no different.
# Posted on April 27th 2011 by skreech
Re: The suits don't get it...
I think you're rather unfair about the subtleties you fail to perceive Ian. It's not the function of a discussion forum to teach those. I listened to some of your clips a while ago and I see your problem (as I said at the time) but you can't expect to be taught in minute detail here.
In a previous discussion I posted several links, Pat Mitchell's articles among them them, to get you started. Lead a horse to water and all that, and after that it really is about doing the leg work. To listen until you actually hear a few things that are going on would be a good start. And seek out people to sit down and do a bit of practical work.
Thinking you'll find it all here, that's really a matter of looking in the wrong place.
# Posted on April 27th 2011 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: The suits don't get it...
skreech, thanks for your considered reply...
>>This isn't a teaching site, it is a discussion board for traditional musicians.
I conceded that. But a lot of people come here for advice…
>>Have you any idea how insulting that is to someone who has spent half a lifetime mastering the idiom?
Yes, which is why I have tried not to take that approach. But the greatest of all are those who realise how idiotic learners can be,and show infinite patience...
Personal weakness maybe, but having spent half a lifetime clearly *failing* to master this idiom and effectively finding I have to go back to square one isn’t that great either. Frustrating, to say the least.
>>You think everything can be taught
I can see why you think that, I supposedly based my life around that which can be. In fact much of most things has to come from within. But why should one particular kind of music be any different? I’m not talking about that which makes a genius, simply that which generally defines it, such that one can start to learn how to make reasonable progress.
>>It's like teaching art - you can teach a kid how to hold a paintbrush, how to mix colours etc. But you can't teach him how to paint a great picture, that has to come from within him. So it is with traditional music.
Good analogy, but more or less true of all music, or indeed any art-form. But see above.
>>And if you need to ask 'what am I supposed to be listening FOR?' you haven't listened enough. That sounds trite, but it is true. You're not listening FOR anything, simply absorbing the feel of the music.
I am pretty comfortable with the sound of this music, even if I can’t always distinguish between individual subtleties. I can pick up a tune by ear pretty quickly. I can take dots and turn them into something reasonable too, the more so for the change of instrument. Not everyone’s idea of good practice, but IMO it shows I’ve absorbed the idiom, at least up to a point.
‘Absorbing’ someone’s style is very satisfying from an aesthetic point of view, but in order for to make any appreciable impact on what you do yourself, you need to be able to identify how a certain ‘feel’ was achieved. All trad players learned at some time - and imitation would inevitably have been part of it. Otherwise you might as well tell anyone who couldn’t play at birth never to bother.
>>As to your exchange with llig. He's absolutely right. If you need to ask for a tune list so that you can 'learn the tunes' then you are nowhere near ready to play in sessions like Sandy Bell's.
Well, if the scene is as illogical as that, then how can anyone ever get anywhere with it? We all started somewhere? I’m very hesitant about playing at Bell’s, which is why I asked. But surely being prepared is better than not being? I will make the final decision when I get there – was certainly intending to stake it out, minus instrument before going any further.
# Posted on April 27th 2011 by ian stock
Re: The suits don't get it...
Prof,
>> you can't expect to be taught in minute detail here.
>>Lead a horse to water and all that, and after that it really is about doing the leg work. To listen until you actually hear a few things that are going on would be a good start. And seek out people to sit down and do a bit of practical work.
Fair point. That’s why I have started taking the online fiddle lessons. That’s best available at present, though we now have a (very) good fiddle player in the band, so hopefully something will rub off…
I have been listening for years, but unless you are in the position to be able to *do* yourself, then it is too easy for the stuff you need to be hearing to escape you. The experience of those beginners fiddle lessons is enough to show that.
Asking someone to ‘signpost’ things can sometimes be a substitute.
What still puzzles me is why this thread has gone this way, when the OP was nothing to do with this at all…
As for leading horses... well, the process is under way, but as everyone says, it isn't quick - and I do have a crust to earn...
# Posted on April 27th 2011 by ian stock
Re: The suits don't get it...
>>I see your problem
Thanks for taking the time - but the problem is, no one seems to be able to tell me what the problem is, let alone what to do about it. Other than Emily, who is trying... I think I know, but I can't be sure, and what to do about it on a mandolin...??? It just doesn't seem to lend itself to what I *think* I need to be doing. Yep there are a some who have it, but where to find out what 'it' is and how they got it?
# Posted on April 27th 2011 by ian stock
Re: The suits don't get it...
Well, one thing I did notice, listening to Sliabh Russell, is that to my ear there's not a lot of phrasing, you go dicketydickety six to the bar without much of phrasing or rhythmic emphasis. No variation, melodic or rhythmic. Especially on the mandolin you'd expect notes stressed to emphasise those things.
That's just off the top of my head, as far as I remember the clip.
Compare your version to, say, Séamus Ennis one for example. Notice how he articulates the melody and where his nuances are.
# Posted on April 27th 2011 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: The suits don't get it...
>>>It's like teaching art - you can teach a kid how to hold a paintbrush, how to mix colours etc. But you can't teach him how to paint a great picture, that has to come from within him. So it is with traditional music.
>Good analogy, but more or less true of all music, or indeed any art-form. But see above.
No, it's not true of all music at all. And I think once you grasp this, everything else will fall into place (certainly it did for me).
Sticking with the art analogy, playing from music is painting by numbers. If you do it a lot you'll get good at it, you'll be able to fill in the little areas with the right colours, very accurately. If you paint the same picture enough times using paint by numbers canvases you'll eventually be able to reproduce it without the numbers. Is that art?
Now supposing you have been painting by numbers all your life and you're really good at it. Then one day someone sits you in front of a landscape with a blank canvas, and says "pait it". Is your experience of painting by numbers going to help you? I don't think so.
And that is exactly how it is with music - to play traditional music you have to be able to hear a tune, interpret it and then play it, not learn by rote where each note and ornament is supposed to go.
That is why you need to listen to a LOT of traditional music if you are going to get any where. There is no shortcut - you're not listening to learn tunes or technique, you are listening to get the feel of the music. To get it so ingrained that when you hear a tune you've never heard before, you can almost anticipate the next phrase, and having heard it once you'll know how it should be played, because you've heard similar phrases so many times before.
Once you start getting near to that state you'll realise how silly the idea of going to a session with a list of prepared tunes is. There are thousands of tunes out there, and unless you learn them all, the chances of your 'learned' tunes coming up in any given session are fairly low. But if you've learned to play in the trad way that doesn't matter - even with a tune you've never heard before you'll be pretty much ready to join in on the second time through.
# Posted on April 27th 2011 by skreech
Re: The suits don't get it...
"What still puzzles me is why this thread has gone this way, when the OP was nothing to do with this at all…"
Well, your opening post seemed to be wondering why a bunch of folk didn't appreciate two musicians. You then went on to convey your own opinions of the music. Unfortunately, some people here hold one of the musicians in very high esteem and, no matter how constructive your criticism might have been, some seem to have a childish worship of musicians (Mr Gill got himself suspended by using insults) and any criticism can be taken the wrong way. I hope you can appreciate that those 'suits' might not have the same appreciation of Liz Carroll's music than you by realising that some people on here feel differently than you also, but in the other direction. Not that a youtube video is likely to capture everybody in that room. Some may well have appreciated it and Liz Carroll may have picked up on that, which is why she posted that video on her website - her take might be something entirely different.
# Posted on April 27th 2011 by Weejie
Re: The suits don't get it...
>>>As to your exchange with llig. He's absolutely right. If you need to ask for a tune list so that you can 'learn the tunes' then you are nowhere near ready to play in sessions like Sandy Bell's.
>>Well, if the scene is as illogical as that, then how can anyone ever get anywhere with it? We all started somewhere? I’m very hesitant about playing at Bell’s, which is why I asked.
The scene isn't in the least bit illogical - it has a hirachy just like any other music. If you play in a rock band you don't start off playing at Wembley Stadium, you start in the local pub and work your way up.
Do go to Bell's, it will help you see where you fit in the scheme of things, but don't take your instrument, thinking you'll be able to just jump in and play.
# Posted on April 27th 2011 by skreech
Re: The suits don't get it...
To be fair, here's the line from the original post:
"Just been watching a few Liz Carroll clips - can't say that her playing is the most appealing to my ears"
That actually seems quite a tame statement, I don't really see what any of the fuss was about. Whether you agree or not isn't the point - it's a perfectly reasonable view to hold, and there's no reason why anyone should jump on him for it.
# Posted on April 27th 2011 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: The suits don't get it...
Jon, The conversation isn't about Ians original post anymore, its about the one a liitle further up that starts:
"Copperplate, it seems you may be correct. I joined here to learn more about the music, but it increasingly seems to me that trad music (at least as represented by MB) has a BIG Achilles’ heel – namely that people haven’t the first idea how to communicate their knowledge. Being told (on numerous occasions) to “just listen” really isn’t helpful to anyone who doesn’t already know what they are listening *for*, let alone what then to DO"
# Posted on April 27th 2011 by skreech
Re: The suits don't get it...
All I can say is listen to so-and-so, listen to their timing and phrasing. Ian, I would say you should focus on articulating your phrases, as I what I hear are rushed phrases, or bits where you fudge a couple notes together. I'm in a coffee shop pretending to work at the moment so I am just saying that based on what I remember hearing when I listened to those clips a few days ago.
Beyond that, it's really hard to articulate exactly what you need to be listening for. It's like trying to explain to the novice horse person the concept of "feel" (again, that word). You have to be so perceptive at reading the horse's body language that you can predict what he's going to do before he does it, and respond accordingly (either negatively or positively). I can stand next to a novice person and say, "Now he's moving into your space. Make him back up." By the time I have said that, it's too late. Part of working with a trainer is to have the guidance, to be taught what to look for and how to react to it, but you'll never be able to effectively train a horse yourself until you have developed that feel and understanding of the animal. It's not something which can be taught in a step-by-step manner, only something guided towards in the hope the person eventually gets it. Many people never do. Like with Irish music and all the people who can play a tune, but in that sort of stilted, flat way, there are many many people who can ride a horse, stop, steer, and not fall off, and quite a lot of people enjoy that and are happy with that. But to be a real horseman or woman, or a really good Irish player, you need to develop that feel and timing and understanding at a far deeper level, and there isn't a simple answer or instructions along the lines of, "Do this and you'll get it." If there were, a lot more people would "get it."
# Posted on April 27th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: The suits don't get it...
It does help to listen. It helps to listen to tunes even if you think you know those tunes. It helps to listen to one person playing a variation on a tune, being drawn in because I hadn't thought of it that way. It even helps to listen to poor players & recognizing what's not working ... rushing bits, lack of articulation, too much precision (the exact same each time); & then play it better yourself. It helps to listen while not playing. It helps to listen while playing. It helps to not have to read this, or even searching YouTube for umpteen million examples of someone playing tunes. It probably helps to go to Sandy Bells when Gill is playing & expect to do more listening than playing; for starters.
Go for it, Ian. You may not find the answers you're looking for. You may leave in a huff. However, if you are patient, with listening, it may pay off.
For everyone who is wondering ... Of course I consider Michael overly rude & prone toward kneejerk responses. He is upfront about it though. I don't condone his manner. But, aside from recognizing the fact I see no reason to try & tame his wild nature. He will discover civility if he feels it is important to the music. Until then we need someone like him.
Happy gardening!
# Posted on April 27th 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: The suits don't get it...
Playing vs. listening. It's still listening. Play everything you hear ~ hear a new tune, pick it out on mandolin. Try different phrasing, different articulation. Transpose the key.
# Posted on April 27th 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: The suits don't get it...
I'm sick and tired of eejits here claiming there's a cabal or junta here. If you spout nonsense, folks here will call you on it. Just because some of us have participated here for a decade doesn't mean we're all in cahoots. I typically disagree with Llig's caustic approach, however often I might agree with his insights on this music.
To copperplate and Jig, drop your stupid conspiracy theories and grow up.
Ian, you went to some length in this thread (not just in the OP) to call Liz Carroll's playing into doubt. Even accounting for personal taste, you can't expect that to go unchallenged on a forum about traditional Irish music. Liz is a fecking brilliant fiddler, even if you don't care for her personal style. Sorry, but if you've listened to this music for years and still can't hear that, there may be no hope.
As for being helpful on this forum--I've spent many hours typing away in here to pass on what others have taught me about this music. I've posted clips to teach tunes and techniques (back when soundlantern was up and running). More often than not, however, some hack (we've seen the videos, we know who you are) lobs mounds of bad, counterproductive advice into the mix. Not just a different view--that's fine and welcome by all. But genuinely stupid and often harmful advice, and so the discussion derails.
Frankly, it's a waste of time.
You're far better off with a face-to-face mentor. Go find one.
# Posted on April 27th 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: The suits don't get it...
I am still mystified why this has arisen – as Jon said, from an innocent expression of a purely personal viewpoint... and all subsequent comments were only the consequence of what went before.
Will, here’s the thread title re-phrased: “The Suits don’t appreciate what talent they are witnessing”. And why do you think I had been looking for Liz Carroll clips in the first place? Even if I was initially disappointed in what I found, this is hardly doubting her music.
>>Liz is a fecking brilliant fiddler
Well, if that’s the best we can do, it’s not surprising that we don’t see more reviews of trad music in the media... Really helpful for those who want to know WHY - not. Or is that just too much like questioning God? Do you all really think I didn’t appreciate the limitations of my own comment? It was meant (partly) as a bit of FUN...
A scene that can't deal with even mild dissent really needs to look at itself hard, IMO. It’s all the more ironic, since so much emphasis is supposedly placed on diversity and individual self-expression...
1. Painting by numbers. Painting by numbers ALONE will never make you into a great artist, but it might just give you a basic insight into how the technicalities work. If your errors are at a functional level, then any amount of disembodied ‘absorption’ or ‘inspiration’ won’t help. But a little technical guidance just might.
2. Painting by numbers, II. I think it is indulgent to consider this music to be so different from others. As if other music is just about technical execution: try telling that to Yehudi Menhuin or Dave Brubeck!
3. I can often anticipate next phrases, and my idle hands often play proto-tunes all on their own. The problem here is not ‘not knowing the music’, it’s how to bring it out in a practical sense. Functional problem again.
4. Hierarchy in the music: I’m afraid I don’t buy into that. What I like is the *lack* of hierarchy that I find. It may be different where you are, but I have yet to come across anyone who was not prepared to play with someone else on the grounds that they weren’t good enough. Not saying it’s wise, musically speaking, but that’s another matter.
Just this week we have had a classic example of lack of hierarchy from an *extremely* well-established fiddler, who is more than happy to travel 20 miles each week to play with the likes of us. He also agrees that good players and half-decent sessions/ bands are like hens’ teeth round here, and he should know. If Bell’s is snooty, I’m not sure I want to play there anyway. I may still go to listen, not be condescended to, or I may go somewhere friendlier.
5. Perhaps it was rash to publicise my tracks, which were really only intended for myself and a few close friends, I mentioned them here before I really realised what I had got myself into. But I was only asking for advice. Just bear in mind the fact that they were mostly made when hadn’t played for a good 18 months, and aren't a full reflection. I also get dreadful red-button-itis, plus the fact that I subconsciously overdrive the instrument just to achieve some volume. All subtlety goes out of the window. I don’t know what to do about that, but I do know I’m not alone.
On the other hand, when does one person’s ‘poor rhythm’, phrasing etc. simply become someone else’s ‘personal interpretation’? I consciously decided that Sliabh Russel wanted legato treatment to stop it sounding plinky (I know my instrument!) – though I confess I had only just learned it. Phrasing, I’m a bit puzzled on, because (to the 85% certainty that I understand what it means) I don’t think I have a problem with it – Emily, I’m puzzled because I thought you said my phrasing was O.K.
Ornamentation *is* a problem – try as I might, I can’t really make it happen on the mandolin, beyond a few triplets and hammers-on/off, and then not when volume (and sometimes speed) is needed. *No one* really seems to have cracked it so far as I can see. I can already do much better on the fiddle. FWIW, I took my early lead from Dave Richardson; there aren’t many clips of him, but from what I can see/hear, even he doesn’t attempt to ornament the mandolin very much. Quite often you can’t really hear what the mandolin is doing on a recording, anyway, which doesn’t help.
6. >>trad music has a BIG Achilles’ heel.
The fact that this may be uncomfortable (and it gives me no pleasure to say it) does not, in itself, render it untrue. I love the music as much as the next person, but it is not perfect, and perhaps its esoteric nature may be one of the reasons why a) it almost died and b) it has an ambivalent relationship with the wider musical world. If you can only understand this music by osmosis or magic, then many people simply won’t bother.
# Posted on April 27th 2011 by ian stock
Re: The suits don't get it...
>> you went to some length in this thread (not just in the OP) to call Liz Carroll's playing into doubt
Really? I called the audience into doubt, and I called into doubt her choice of music for an apparently ignorant audience. Anyone could do the same - that was the point. Comment on the nature of specialisation, that's all.
# Posted on April 27th 2011 by ian stock
Re: The suits don't get it...
I'm about to dash off for a session, but I can't resist commenting on one of Ian's points. I think it has to do with clouds and silver linings.
Though you kvetch about being in the middle of trad-music-nowhere, that sort of situation has its advantages. Like a lack of hierarchies. In my experience, places with lots of trad and lots of really good players and great sessions are completely rife with politics and hierarchies. You check out a session, you assess the people who are there, the types of tunes their playing, how they're playing them, and then you work out whether you can be a pretty active participant, leading a good number of sets, maybe only lead a few sets and play along on ones you know, sit in the back and quietly play along with the ones you know, or don't touch it with a bargepole. The final category can arise because the sessions is completely dire and you can't be bothered, or the session is so amazingly brilliant that you know you can't contribute and will just waste a seat. Then once you're past all that, there's all the politics -- who you get on with, who you've fallen out with, who you imagine dislikes you, who you're absolutely delighted to get in a tune with, and it just gets epically complicated.
That's why I giggled when I read your paragraph about how wonderful it is that trad music has no hierarchies. Good lord, it's absolutely riven with hierarchies, but in places where there aren't many musicians, where everyone sort of has to get on in order to have people to play with, the politics and the hierarchies get pushed back a bit. But in the trad music "meccas" you admire, navigating the morass of hierarchies and politics and slotting yourself in somewhere becomes a part of your musical life.
# Posted on April 27th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: The suits don't get it...
>>2. Painting by numbers, II. I think it is indulgent to consider this music to be so different from others. As if other music is just about technical execution: try telling that to Yehudi Menhuin or Dave Brubeck!
No, mate, this music isn't any different to most other genres. But what you learn in music lessons (which later turns into classical music) IS very different to most other genres. If you were trying to learn jazz or blues, or cajun or whatever you would still face exactly the same problems.
>>4. Hierarchy in the music: I’m afraid I don’t buy into that. What I like is the *lack* of hierarchy that I find. It may be different where you are, but I have yet to come across anyone who was not prepared to play with someone else on the grounds that they weren’t good enough. Not saying it’s wise, musically speaking, but that’s another matter.
How many different sessions have you actually been to? Once you've been to a few you will quickly realise that they are all different. Some are almost entirely composed of improvers, and everyone is welcome. Some are composed entirely of top flight musicians. Of those, some will welcome less able musicians, others won't . And there is every sort of mixture in between. You have to find your own level within that. Find a session that suits your ability. Where you're not being held back, and more importantly you're not stuffing it up for other people. That might be easy where you live - if there is only one show in town it's going to be pretty inclusive. But in an city like Glasgow or Edinburgh where there are a number of sessions to choose from, things are very different.
The fact that a good musician was willing to play with you doesn't show a lack of hierarchy, it shows a lack of ego. And just because he was willing to come play with you doesn't mean he would be happy if you went and stuffed up his regular session.
# Posted on April 28th 2011 by skreech
Re: The suits don't get it...
Ian, A couple of points:
1) You are taking a few opinionated comments on the internet WAY too seriously, the folks on this site are a slice of the Irish music community, but its not like they represent an official opinion or policy or anything. Take it for what it is, free advice that is worth every penny you paid for it, and move on.
2) Every minute you spend here rehashing arguments that could go on forever without reaching a conclusion is a minute of playing time wasted, go pick up your instrument and do what it is REALLY about--playing music that you enjoy.
3) People are not insulting you or being snobby by urging you to listen at a session you are attending for the first time. You will learn a lot by listening, and can have some fun. You don't have to join in to enjoy the tunes.
# Posted on April 28th 2011 by AlBrown
Re: The suits don't get it...
Al just made all the points I would've, thanks Al for saving me the time so I can go play fiddle.
# Posted on April 28th 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: The suits don't get it...
>>You are taking a few opinionated comments on the internet WAY too seriously
Probably, Al – I normally do...
Every minute you spend here …is a minute of playing time wasted
Have been averaging about three hours’ fiddle practice a day during the school hols. Plus other instruments. Very enjoyable (apart from the back ache…)
>> People are not insulting you or being snobby by urging you to listen at a session you are attending for the first time.
No, I wasn’t saying that. I know the etiquette, though how you deal with it if your visit can only be a one-off is a little difficult. But I don’t want to play with people who are superior or condescending – or worse.
>>what you learn in music lessons (which later turns into classical music) IS very different to most other genres
I never had enough music lessons for anything I did ever to resemble proper classical music. Didn’t like the rigidity. Singing in a choir was rather different.
>>The fact that a good musician was willing to play with you...shows a lack of ego.
And the fact that he’s joined the band shows that he’s happy with that, and will continue to be. We hope to learn from him.
>>doesn't mean he would be happy if you went and stuffed up his regular session
He doesn’t have one within acceptable reach. That’s the point about this area. Emily’s comment is very perceptive, and I’m glad it’s that way. I have far too much hierarchy in my working life to want it in my social life too.
# Posted on April 28th 2011 by ian stock
Re: The suits don't get it...
"I have far too much hierarchy in my working life to want it in my social life too." ian stock
Ain't that just life though ian?
# Posted on April 28th 2011 by Solidmahog
Re: The suits don't get it...
Aye, I find the best way to avoid hierarchy and politics is to be a hermit. But that's boring and lonely.
# Posted on April 28th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Does anyone "get" it...
There are many paradoxes wrapped in an enigma standing on a bedrock of humility.
""You're after something in the tune, and, at the end of the day, you are just the servant of the music." Liam O'Flynn
# Posted on April 28th 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: The suits don't get it...
I'm just grasping at straws now.
Ian, my friend, there is an undercurrent here. Your questions are innocent enough, on the surface. For instance asking Llig to name some of the tunes they play in session in order for you to learn them. You anticipated some tune names... I think I missed his response. Perhaps it was deleted? Probably heated ... probably needed to be deleted.
If you asked me for the tunes I play in session I'd probably email you some names of tunes & recommend recordings. Having said that ;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wpAkgNhImjU
Gerry O'Connor, Paul McSherry, Martin O'Hare
However, you asked Llig within the context of this thread. There's the undercurrent. Does that make sense without further explanation. If so, grand! If not just say so & I'll email you my full dissertation.
For the record we play "The Didda"
Back to the bit on asking innocent questions vs. an undercurrent of controversy. We've plenty of rows; always have. I spent my first few months on thesession alternating between having large objects heaved at me, to being completed ignored, to emailing with very compassionate mustard people. It was a life experience. I don't know that I'd wish it on anyone. I have plenty of regrets. I continue to make adjustments. I do my best to balance everything. Most of all I like the crack. Sometimes I learn something here. Usually it's nothing direct.
# Posted on April 28th 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: The suits don't get it...
At the session.org session at Willie Week 07, a girl who played flute showed up and she had the word "Muse" written on her t-shirt. Kenny and I speculated that she might be you, as you had been posting here under that handle at the time.
I suspect we might have been wrong, unless you are in fact a twenty-something year old Irish girl.
# Posted on April 28th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: The suits don't get it...
>>Ain't that just life though ian?
Send me your thesis if you want, I won’t mind. The only other thing I would say is that people should never be afraid of asking hard questions, I won’t say testing to destruction as that would be, well, destructive – but it is only by submitting to rigour is the true worth of something really tested, and those false gods debunked.
Solidmahog, I’m hardly old. But the more time goes on, the more I conclude that the vast majority of human undertakings consist of temples to false gods, built on foundations of sand, and the less I have to do with them, the better. Live and let live, I say.
In my professional life, I am being directed to work in a way that is completely counter-intuitive to everything I have come to understand about both education and human nature, by people who are building their own reputations on the back of ordering the minions to do things that cause direct harm to the people and communities we are supposed to be serving.
May sound melodramatic, but there is a gathering body of evidence to say I am not wrong. However, the system has us by the b*lls.
I am faced with a daily conflict between doing that which the hierarchy (from inspectorate downwards) is directing me to do, which if I don’t do I can be failed as a teacher even after 25 successful years (as rated my students), versus my conscience which says that many of their policies are worse than useless, they are actually harmful. I won’t quit because that would be yet another speck of resistance removed from the whole sick edifice, and a betrayal of the values I went into education for. But it has made me damned sick of hierarchies of people who often haven’t a clue what they are really doing, telling me they know best. I use my music as an escape from such situations, not a chance to find more of them.
Ben, what is the undercurrent? That I’m a stirrer? No, I’m probably just too innocent by half. The foregoing may support that – but make of that comment what you will
My request for tune names was a simple attempt to head off the criticism that people who turn up to sessions ruin things by noodling tunes they don’t know. So I would have liked to go to Bell’s in the knowledge that I might actually have something I can join in with. I simply thought it was responsible behaviour.
For the record, my contact with Llig took place off list. It was probably unfair of me then to mention it on here, but given his tirade, it seemed reasonable to mention that despite his ranting, he has not taken the chance actually to do anything practical to reduce the ignorance he apparently so objects to.
# Posted on April 28th 2011 by ian stock
Re: The suits don't get it...
Back to the OP... I was discussing this clip with Liz not that long ago and she told me that it followed a long series of speeches and they were regarded by most everyone in the room as background music for the break. Obama seemed to be the only one listening and I think that was a credit to him. I happen to think Liz's playing is spectacular and Jon's backup is brilliant... but that's just my opinion.
As for this discussion forum, the poor moderation has cultivated a clique of self-proclaimed experts who will bully anyone who disagrees with them. It's like watching an Irish trad destruction derby between a small group of the same people who challenge anyone who wanders in and then everyone starts crashing into each other until the person they were attacking leaves or gets thrown out. The discussions that go on in the comments for the tunes section is far more constructive, but this discussion forum has become a waste of time. It has nothing to do with the love or ability of playing the music and everything to do with posturing to puff up already overinflated egos as if that indicates their authority and expertise. My advice is to stick with the tune sections and seek advice elsewhere... unless you're a glutton for punishment.
# Posted on April 29th 2011 by copperplate
Re: The suits don't get it...
Emily, this is completely true. I am not a twenty something woman. Although I did use a second identity for a period & she had a female name. I've discontinued using that profile. However, it was quite enlightening to walk in the shoes of the opposite sex if you will.
As for the time when I was known as The Muse, I grabbed it by chance one day. It wasn't originally for use on the Mustard Board. We had a gig & I wanted to invite everyone & their mother. I didn't want my other band members to know I was sending out band spam, so I assumed the anonymous sobriquet. It seemed to work. We packed the house.
Ian, thanks for the email. Work beckons for now, but I will return in kind. I'm converting an old horse stall into a chicken coop. So, if you know anything about nesting boxes ...
# Posted on April 29th 2011 by Ben Steen
...
I've given this post a great deal of consideration. Sorry, Ian but I'm going to leave you high & dry. As much as I'd love to see a greater exchange between the curious questions of those eager to play the tunes in all their richness & those members with a wealth of experience; I cannot suss out the purpose of this thread (at least in terms of the OP). If it was a lark that's grand.
Cheers!
# Posted on April 30th 2011 by Ben Steen
Hierarchy?
Well, the degree of selectivity varies according to the saturation of players. i.e. ~ fewer players in a given town the more likely individuals will seek out one another & bound(?) The larger the number of players (& sessions) the more tendency to be selective (more hierarchical). Of course this has all been discussed ad infinitum ... open vs. closed sessions, invite only, gig/performance/session, inner vs. outer circles, small sessions or large ...
# Posted on May 2nd 2011 by Ben Steen
This is such a beautiful spring day where I live. I feel quite the edjit taking the time to read this discussion as many times as I have. It drives me bonkers, when I would much rather be playing.
Tonight I'll play flute as long as I am able!
Goodnight my little mustards.
XXOOXX
# Posted on May 2nd 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: The suits don't get it...
Ian,
I called you a moron. It was in the strict sense of the word meaning "lacking in good judgement" (Chambers).
But that was only after thesilverspear called you a moron and you'd called me a fascist. I got barred because Jeremy doesn't like me, which is fine, he is high and mighty. But what irks me is you being high and mighty about it, playing the victim.
But leaving the banter of insults aside (there is a great and noble tradition of insult), your main complaint here seems to be that when you are asking for pointers on how you can improve your playing, you are only receiving glib and useless replies - I have not taken the chance to actually do anything practical to reduce the ignorance I apparently so object to.
I did, I said you should learn Liz Carroll's tunes, all of them. This as a project in itself will have multiple benefits.
Firstly, should you swallow your self-proclaimed cute puppy-like innocence and come for a tune in Edinburgh, we'll be guaranteed to have more tunes in common than just those on Will and Dow's famous lists (though these alone should be enough for a couple of sets between strangers).
Secondly, you'll enjoy yourself learning them, they are great infectious fun.
Thirdly, and most importantly, I guarantee that the process will reverse your current lack of good judgement. As you move through her catalogue your ability to distuingush what makes a good tune and what makes good playing will have to improve.
Go on, educate yourself. Or throw your first year twelve year old maths pupils in the class with the seventeen year old maths pupils and do away with hierarchy.
# Posted on May 3rd 2011 by ...
Suit yourself.
... all of them, eh? I do hope, Ian, you consider learning some Liz Carroll tunes. If you decide it is not worth your time that's your choice. I only know a handful of her tunes. I will be learning more.
Good post, Michael.
# Posted on May 3rd 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: The suits don't get it...
I think the 20 year old Irish female flute player at thesession.org session Willie Week 07 was me.
I was not wearing a suit and I was certainly not stiring it up.
# Posted on May 3rd 2011 by yhaalhouse
Re: The suits don't get it...
Ben, I'm puzzled by your comments above, as they seem to have been posted *after* our discussion in which I thought everything had been made clear.
# Posted on May 3rd 2011 by ian stock
Re: The suits don't get it...
& you were so cute, too!
# Posted on May 3rd 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: The suits don't get it...
Cross-post, that was for yhaalhouse.
Ian, I truly do not understand the purpose of this thread based on the OP. That has never been clear to me.
# Posted on May 3rd 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: The suits don't get it...
I really don't think this thread is in need of another stoking. I have talked to Ben off-list about his comments, and I will talk to Llig similarly about the misunderstanding there. I expect there is nobody left on the planet who cares less about the rest of it by now.
Ben, I will learn some of Liz Carroll's tunes *provided* that I find some I like - when I have a disc or two to listen to. I am not going to learn tunes I don't like any more than anyone else would, just for the sake of taking some medicine. Likewise, starting with them all is hardly practical. I'm sure Michael and I will have others in common if needs be.
For the record, my comments are only ever meant tp be read at face value. I am still gobsmacked at how a humorous, throwaway comment has been taken to this ridiculous extreme. I can accept that some people might see me as naive or wearing my heart on my sleeve, but malicious or cynical is not what I do. I try to include circumstantial observations that will contextualise what I say, in contrast to many who provide little or nothing about themselves but who still seem to expect to be taken as Authorities despite the known shortcomings of internet communication. People seem all too ready to make judgements about others whom they know next to nothing about; That, BTW, is not a dig at Llig.
I always try to keep my observations impersonal. I spend quite a lot of time trying to make them clear and balanced, but cynics, it seems, will always see cynicism even where none exists.
# Posted on May 3rd 2011 by ian stock
Re: The suits don't get it...
Ben, the purpose of this thread is now as much a mystery to me as to you. I thought it was closed in any case.
I can only suggest that we ended up here as the result of over-reaction to my aside that I wasn't immediately impressed by Liz Carroll's clips and the onslaught on my integrity that followed.
# Posted on May 3rd 2011 by ian stock
Re: The suits don't get it...
I can honestly say, when I made the OP that I never expected it to run to more than a few daft comments.
# Posted on May 3rd 2011 by ian stock
The ads ~ infinitum & nauseum
This bit seemed a broad generalization, "... *many* who provide little or nothing about themselves ..." This may seem the case when breezing through the discussions (it takes time to get to know someone*). We have our share of them. As for the lot of us lunatics; be careful what you ask for. Don't take my word for it. Have a look at a few profiles, Dr. Dow, ceolachan ... There really is some diversity here.
* Ian, some of my favourite times on the Mustard Board were back when SoundLantern was up & running. Trad musicians were able to upload recordings of their playing. Then it ran out of money. Now most of the links here are to videos on YouTube. I much preferred Sound Lantern.
# Posted on May 3rd 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: Tune exchanging
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/19396/comments#comment405521
# Posted on May 3rd 2011 by Ben Steen
http://www.greylarsen.com/store/samples/toolbox_ornament.pdf
# Posted on May 4th 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: The suits don't get it...
Ben, perhaps. But more often than not, when I turn to someone's biog to get a flavour of who they are, where they are and where they might be coming from, outlook-wise I draw a blank. Not in everyone's case,. I agree.
Ian
# Posted on May 4th 2011 by ian stock