Hey guys. I started fiddle in my first celtic rock band in September. I have never done this before (I've been playing all my life but never in a rock band setting) and I have been focused on trying to pick up as many pointers and figuring out in my own way how to become a fiddler. (I've been calling this my transformation period its like turning into a musical hulk) Its been quite an experience, musically I'm not having problems but the muscles in my right shoulder, neck, and wrist are hurting bad. It's due to doubling my practice time and playing a lot harder but it is becoming a little difficult sometimes to make it through a decent sized tune set without being in a signifigant amount of pain. Will this just get easier as I get used to it. Are there any stretch's excercises or pointers anyone can give me? all comment would be so very much appreciated.
i had a similar problem a couple o years back. can totally empathise. my teacher just told me to warm up carefully before playing i.e. simple wrist rolls, movin up to shoulder rolls, then lettin my body go all droopy and roll about. you look like a fool but feel great when playing.
Goody good good
nice name by the way (i wasn't so creative, sigh)
Playing loud doesn't mean you have to play harder. Use that volume knob!
From my own experience with aches and pains, I'm betting you're on the verge of creating a chronic problem for yourself. Stop now before you really injure yourself. Playing for longer periods and with more energy is all about staying relaxed and effortless. Also, take more frequent breaks, and consider adding electric mandolin to your arsenal (if you don't already) as a relatively easy way to transfer what you know on fiddle to a different set of motions. Helps avoid repetitive stress injuries.
At work, I'm attached to the computer rodent most of the day. I have to take frequent breaks from that. 1min or 2 gets me through. At home w/ fiddle, I'm good for about 30-45min. tops. Overdoing causes pain. Your bod's telling you to ease up. Progress may slow down, but over the long haul, you will be glad you did.
Celtic Rocks are often mistakenly referred to as Dolmen. However Dolmen are actually Pre-Celtic and have been dated to the Neolithic period.
(Where's the music in this?Drone drone Drone drone)
Steve, Nick did respond to the initial enquiry on post 3. For some odd reason, I really find it objectionable to target the younger individuals on this website. It seems a shame when the younger ones display better manners shall we say, than the older one's.
Why don't you just let go of the antagonism and joins us for some fun??
Deb.
I'm newish here, but I've had some serious experience in this area. Seventeen years ago, I suffered a repetitive strain injury from the combination of bad plectrum technique, bad posture using tools and not knowing when to back off and rest. I lost the use of my right hand for two years and it took me another twelve years to get back to 70% of my former ability.
The moral is: Don't try to play through the pain! You might get away with it, but you might do serious, even permanent, damage.
There's good advice here already, but I'll add another bit. If you think you've overdone it and strained something, ice it ASAP. Ice, or the blue goo frozen gel packs, can rescue you from serious inflammation.
Fiddlebug, a second-hand seconding of Susie-Lee's yoga suggestion. A fellow I've had a few lessons from has been a yoga regular for a long time and says the upward-facing and downward-facing dog poses are particularly helpful for fiddlers.
Having had a yoga-for-fiddlers demo in a break at one of his pub gigs, using the cigarette machine as a barre (didn't that get the punters' attention!) and then watched an on-stage continuation of the demo whilst playing and improvising absolutely flat-chat and not missing a note... whilst his rather less supple guitarist tried to keep up... I have to say it must be doing something for him! It could be another option for your stage act, anyway
Bob, that's a sad story. I hope you continue to make progress, and at least take great joy from the music you make. It's an inspiration to know you've persevered.
Back in college I crushed my right ulnar nerve in an accident and lost the use of my hand (it was curled up in its own little fetal position) for three weeks. It took another 6 months before I could move the fingers enough to try picking my 5-string banjo or guitar again, and I never did regain the finger coordination I once had. But fingerpicking was good therapy, plus I finally had a good excuse to take up fiddle, so there's the silver lining.
Fiddlebug, just to clear up one point which hasn't been addressed in previous posts, are you using the same fiddle and bow in your rock band that you've always been used to - except perhaps for the addition of a mic pickup?
Because if you're using a different fiddle, possibly an electric one, the differences in physical layout (and possibly its weight if it's electric) could be sufficient to cause your problems, especially under the stressful conditions of performing live in a rock band (not quite the same as playing in a relaxing session or even in an orchestra!)
It's worth noting that no two fiddles feel the same to play, unless they are identical models off a production line, AND are set up with identical bridges, chinrests, shoulder rests and strings, AND are played with the same bow, so it is always noticeable when you transfer from one to another.
Trevor
"There - I've said my bit. Don't worry - if I get negative vibes from this I'll be off like a shot and I'll never darken your doorsteps again!"
I think we're all willing to give someone the benefit of the doubt (that's why I started the harmonica thread, to lure you into some friendly conversation), but why are you so disagreeable? If you find it so unpleasant here, why hang around? DebWah is one of the sweetest folks on here, & she said absolutely nothing wrong.
Steve, I think you misunderstood, I was referring to the 3rd post. Sounds like Nick's muscle warmup routine, which was his advice. No wit in that post. Perhaps you may feel that the advice was not enough, but he did offer in.
I agree w/ you re: the painkillers, but I think Nick was saying this in jest.
I took your comment "I wonder if Joe & Nick have actually any advice..." as the target, that is where I became momma bear. Maybe my nuturing instincts were raised a little soon, if so, I will apologise. I will never apologise however for the nuturing instinct; I try to remember this is a sharing w/ people of all ages.
Join us Yanks Steve, in celebrating G Bush's LAST State of the Union address this eve!
Another thing to consider about these injuries is that some of them are lifelong companions, even if they appear to have healed, so once you’ve worked out the fix and fixed it, it’s still a good idea to tread warily.
(Says she with the three-year-old recurring right shoulder and neck pain caused by a 72-hr stretch driving a computer mouse and a two-year old sailing accident left hand tendon sheath injury that took a year to go away then reappeared overnight thanks to a new left hand strength/finger independence/stretch improving exercise.)
We’re a battle-scarred bunch of old warhorses, eh wot?
Just sharing an experience. I've an old sports injury in both my wrists that gave no trouble except when doing the sport, but in my current training to be a Physical Therapist have found there's a possibility I may have a bone slightly out of place in my wrist and am having X-rays done tomorrow. Since my tutor in the course went investigating it, I can only play the fiddle for a max of 10mins before it gets too sore. Someone even commented on my very stiff bowing the other night. I'm hoping it's only a case of tendinitis.
Anyway, Fiddlebug, sounds like all your muscles have tightened up and are referring pain, particularly on the side where there's more stress. If it's soft tissue, then no amount of painkillers or easing off playing are going to solve the problem. I would suggest you find a good Sports Massage Therapist to assess you and soften them all up again. May be costly initially but a few sessions should see you right and it's worth it in the long run. Might be worth talking to your Physician first though.
Hello Fiddlebug - Good questions. See my post of Dec 2003, the last in the discussion #1625 link listed above concerning Kato Havas.
The problem you have is typical to players who are out of balance in their posture, motions, and use of parts. Sounds like you are simply pressing too hard with the Right side of your body. This will happen when you try to play loud to match others' volume. Please note that fiddles look good in the company of drum sets, brass instruments, and electric instruments, but can't be heard. So simply Turn Up Your Amplification. If it is as high as it goes, procure adequate equipment. And wear earplugs.
For no reason shd you damage yrsf to play fiddle/violin or other instr. I have found that the most obvious fundamental problem is that fiddlers try to play like violinists, wch is way wrong. Ouch. Seems to me that traditional fiddlers mostly play relaxed, with the instr in front, not to the side. Kato appreciates gypsy players some of whom are (appear) released. Not all - have you seen Latcho Drom? Important.
Also, as noted in a thread herein, real trad fiddlers play quietly. My opinion is so they can play expression, that is, they have a medium energy to begin so they can use more or less when it's necessary. Mezzo-forte has nothing to do with it.
The object of learning to play is to realize just what is Not necessary to play what you want. Milton Trager said: Do it with half the effort.
I am currently writing the script for my dvd about how to play released - it's radical, very different than either classical or fiddle traditional physical ways and should help. I'll let you know when it's ready. Been figuring this out for 8 yrs - since Leap Day 1996, so I'm in no rush. But I've learned from this and other groups that everyone else is ready to stop hurting.
If you want to play the trad way (any variety) check out Kato Havas' website. She's the best for that.
I try to get to the actual essentials, and simplify for easier learning. Hope I succeed.
Also, your bow is an amplifyer, so a larger, fatter bow will help. I designed and use for 9 yrs a violin-length bow with cello frog, stick size and hair width, with black bass hair. This gives my violin a voice - my voice. Yeah. I fill up the world with this - playing on the street I can be heard as people round the corner, but they must get close to hear the band. haha "Isn't this bow heavy?" Dunno, I never lift it.
Rivinus used to live near me, and I played one of his violas at his place. Fits well, and easy to play. Perhaps too little wood in it - some wonder if enough to stand the test of time. I needed a 5-str at the time, so a 4-str viola was not for me. He said it took him 3 yrs to finalize his design - I said "only 3 yrs?" and he said he wished it had been sooner.
I suggest that you figure out, slowly as possible, just what hurts, and tighten enough to learn why, and then learn to release the harmful tensions. To play quietly actually requires more tensions than to fill the world. To play Big (loud is an inappropriate word. Big: fill up) it is necessary to release as much as poss so you actually depend from (on) the instr. People wonder that I can play so big, but it's much easier and more released than one might think - no holding up the R arm to play daintily.
Pressing more to become louder is defeating, because tensions cause contraction of muscles, therefore contraction of your sound.
Best wishes - playing is a study of ourselves, not of methods or techniques. And yes, a serious weekly massage will be necessary while you learn to relax. Alexander Technique, chiropractic, yoga (Menuhin), etc. - vlnplyr
Hey Fiddlebug....I play fiddle in a Trad band as well and sets go on for hours....my advice to you is to drink heavily and all ele will fall into place.....It worked for me but now my liver hurts.
physically falling apart
physically falling apart
Hey guys. I started fiddle in my first celtic rock band in September. I have never done this before (I've been playing all my life but never in a rock band setting) and I have been focused on trying to pick up as many pointers and figuring out in my own way how to become a fiddler. (I've been calling this my transformation period its like turning into a musical hulk) Its been quite an experience, musically I'm not having problems but the muscles in my right shoulder, neck, and wrist are hurting bad. It's due to doubling my practice time and playing a lot harder but it is becoming a little difficult sometimes to make it through a decent sized tune set without being in a signifigant amount of pain. Will this just get easier as I get used to it. Are there any stretch's excercises or pointers anyone can give me? all comment would be so very much appreciated.
# Posted on January 20th 2004 by fiddlebug
Re: physically falling apart
Okay, take a look at these threads for a starter:
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display.php/883
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display.php/1973
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display.php/1625
Let us know if something isn't addressed for you there...Good luck!
# Posted on January 20th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: physically falling apart
i had a similar problem a couple o years back. can totally empathise. my teacher just told me to warm up carefully before playing i.e. simple wrist rolls, movin up to shoulder rolls, then lettin my body go all droopy and roll about. you look like a fool but feel great when playing.
Goody good good
nice name by the way (i wasn't so creative, sigh)
# Posted on January 20th 2004 by NickPhelan
P.S.
.and if the relaxation doesn't work then just take hella strong painkillers, don't stop playing!!!!!
# Posted on January 20th 2004 by NickPhelan
Re: physically falling apart
Playing loud doesn't mean you have to play harder. Use that volume knob!
From my own experience with aches and pains, I'm betting you're on the verge of creating a chronic problem for yourself. Stop now before you really injure yourself. Playing for longer periods and with more energy is all about staying relaxed and effortless. Also, take more frequent breaks, and consider adding electric mandolin to your arsenal (if you don't already) as a relatively easy way to transfer what you know on fiddle to a different set of motions. Helps avoid repetitive stress injuries.
Good luck!
# Posted on January 20th 2004 by Will CPT
Re: physically falling apart
Good Advice from Will(as always).
At work, I'm attached to the computer rodent most of the day. I have to take frequent breaks from that. 1min or 2 gets me through. At home w/ fiddle, I'm good for about 30-45min. tops. Overdoing causes pain. Your bod's telling you to ease up. Progress may slow down, but over the long haul, you will be glad you did.
Deb.
# Posted on January 20th 2004 by Agnes Nutter
Re: physically falling apart
Celtic Rocks are often mistakenly referred to as Dolmen. However Dolmen are actually Pre-Celtic and have been dated to the Neolithic period.
(Where's the music in this?Drone drone Drone drone)
Steve Shaw
# Posted on January 20th 2004 by Joe Quinn
Re: physically falling apart
For repetitive strain injury (and similar)
YOGA..seriously, it is gentle and focused... promoted by one of the greatest fiddlers...Yehuidi Menuin
# Posted on January 20th 2004 by Susie-Lee
Re: physically falling apart
steve man, i think it was a joke. relax and smile. exhale.
# Posted on January 20th 2004 by NickPhelan
Re: physically falling apart
Crikey, it's the cops! Quick Nick, out the back door!
# Posted on January 20th 2004 by Will CPT
Re: physically falling apart
ROFL
# Posted on January 20th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: physically falling apart
Steve, Nick did respond to the initial enquiry on post 3. For some odd reason, I really find it objectionable to target the younger individuals on this website. It seems a shame when the younger ones display better manners shall we say, than the older one's.
Why don't you just let go of the antagonism and joins us for some fun??
Deb.
# Posted on January 20th 2004 by Agnes Nutter
Re: physically falling apart
I'm newish here, but I've had some serious experience in this area. Seventeen years ago, I suffered a repetitive strain injury from the combination of bad plectrum technique, bad posture using tools and not knowing when to back off and rest. I lost the use of my right hand for two years and it took me another twelve years to get back to 70% of my former ability.
The moral is: Don't try to play through the pain! You might get away with it, but you might do serious, even permanent, damage.
There's good advice here already, but I'll add another bit. If you think you've overdone it and strained something, ice it ASAP. Ice, or the blue goo frozen gel packs, can rescue you from serious inflammation.
Bob
# Posted on January 20th 2004 by Bob himself
Re: physically falling apart
Fiddlebug, a second-hand seconding of Susie-Lee's yoga suggestion. A fellow I've had a few lessons from has been a yoga regular for a long time and says the upward-facing and downward-facing dog poses are particularly helpful for fiddlers.
Having had a yoga-for-fiddlers demo in a break at one of his pub gigs, using the cigarette machine as a barre (didn't that get the punters' attention!) and then watched an on-stage continuation of the demo whilst playing and improvising absolutely flat-chat and not missing a note... whilst his rather less supple guitarist tried to keep up... I have to say it must be doing something for him! It could be another option for your stage act, anyway
# Posted on January 20th 2004 by Tish
For those who feel in need of diversion...
Umm, just did a google search for a page I found once that had a bit of info re fiddlers & dog poses and came across this:
http://www.hotclub.co.uk/html/smallbore.html
Shame they say the follow-up article, "Pole Vaulting with a Double Bass" might not eventuate 8>#
# Posted on January 20th 2004 by Tish
P.S.
The onstage yoga demo definitely involved poses D and E.
# Posted on January 20th 2004 by Tish
Found the proper link this time:
http://www.stringsmagazine.com/issues/strings90/PractMus90.html
# Posted on January 20th 2004 by Tish
Re: physically falling apart
Bob, that's a sad story. I hope you continue to make progress, and at least take great joy from the music you make. It's an inspiration to know you've persevered.
Back in college I crushed my right ulnar nerve in an accident and lost the use of my hand (it was curled up in its own little fetal position) for three weeks. It took another 6 months before I could move the fingers enough to try picking my 5-string banjo or guitar again, and I never did regain the finger coordination I once had. But fingerpicking was good therapy, plus I finally had a good excuse to take up fiddle, so there's the silver lining.
# Posted on January 20th 2004 by Will CPT
Re: physically falling apart
Fiddlebug, just to clear up one point which hasn't been addressed in previous posts, are you using the same fiddle and bow in your rock band that you've always been used to - except perhaps for the addition of a mic pickup?
Because if you're using a different fiddle, possibly an electric one, the differences in physical layout (and possibly its weight if it's electric) could be sufficient to cause your problems, especially under the stressful conditions of performing live in a rock band (not quite the same as playing in a relaxing session or even in an orchestra!)
It's worth noting that no two fiddles feel the same to play, unless they are identical models off a production line, AND are set up with identical bridges, chinrests, shoulder rests and strings, AND are played with the same bow, so it is always noticeable when you transfer from one to another.
Trevor
# Posted on January 20th 2004 by lazyhound
Re: physically falling apart
Steve, you wrote, in a previous thread:
"There - I've said my bit. Don't worry - if I get negative vibes from this I'll be off like a shot and I'll never darken your doorsteps again!"
I think we're all willing to give someone the benefit of the doubt (that's why I started the harmonica thread, to lure you into some friendly conversation), but why are you so disagreeable? If you find it so unpleasant here, why hang around? DebWah is one of the sweetest folks on here, & she said absolutely nothing wrong.
# Posted on January 20th 2004 by emily_bmore
Re: physically falling apart
Thanks Em!
Steve, I think you misunderstood, I was referring to the 3rd post. Sounds like Nick's muscle warmup routine, which was his advice. No wit in that post. Perhaps you may feel that the advice was not enough, but he did offer in.
I agree w/ you re: the painkillers, but I think Nick was saying this in jest.
I took your comment "I wonder if Joe & Nick have actually any advice..." as the target, that is where I became momma bear. Maybe my nuturing instincts were raised a little soon, if so, I will apologise. I will never apologise however for the nuturing instinct; I try to remember this is a sharing w/ people of all ages.
Join us Yanks Steve, in celebrating G Bush's LAST State of the Union address this eve!
Peace, Deb.
# Posted on January 20th 2004 by Agnes Nutter
Re: physically falling apart
Amen.
# Posted on January 20th 2004 by emily_bmore
Re: physically falling apart
Another thing to consider about these injuries is that some of them are lifelong companions, even if they appear to have healed, so once you’ve worked out the fix and fixed it, it’s still a good idea to tread warily.
(Says she with the three-year-old recurring right shoulder and neck pain caused by a 72-hr stretch driving a computer mouse and a two-year old sailing accident left hand tendon sheath injury that took a year to go away then reappeared overnight thanks to a new left hand strength/finger independence/stretch improving exercise.)
We’re a battle-scarred bunch of old warhorses, eh wot?
# Posted on January 20th 2004 by Tish
Re: physically falling apart
Just sharing an experience. I've an old sports injury in both my wrists that gave no trouble except when doing the sport, but in my current training to be a Physical Therapist have found there's a possibility I may have a bone slightly out of place in my wrist and am having X-rays done tomorrow. Since my tutor in the course went investigating it, I can only play the fiddle for a max of 10mins before it gets too sore. Someone even commented on my very stiff bowing the other night. I'm hoping it's only a case of tendinitis.
Anyway, Fiddlebug, sounds like all your muscles have tightened up and are referring pain, particularly on the side where there's more stress. If it's soft tissue, then no amount of painkillers or easing off playing are going to solve the problem. I would suggest you find a good Sports Massage Therapist to assess you and soften them all up again. May be costly initially but a few sessions should see you right and it's worth it in the long run. Might be worth talking to your Physician first though.
Dor
# Posted on January 20th 2004 by DG
Re: physically falling apart
Hello Fiddlebug - Good questions. See my post of Dec 2003, the last in the discussion #1625 link listed above concerning Kato Havas.
The problem you have is typical to players who are out of balance in their posture, motions, and use of parts. Sounds like you are simply pressing too hard with the Right side of your body. This will happen when you try to play loud to match others' volume. Please note that fiddles look good in the company of drum sets, brass instruments, and electric instruments, but can't be heard. So simply Turn Up Your Amplification. If it is as high as it goes, procure adequate equipment. And wear earplugs.
For no reason shd you damage yrsf to play fiddle/violin or other instr. I have found that the most obvious fundamental problem is that fiddlers try to play like violinists, wch is way wrong. Ouch. Seems to me that traditional fiddlers mostly play relaxed, with the instr in front, not to the side. Kato appreciates gypsy players some of whom are (appear) released. Not all - have you seen Latcho Drom? Important.
Also, as noted in a thread herein, real trad fiddlers play quietly. My opinion is so they can play expression, that is, they have a medium energy to begin so they can use more or less when it's necessary. Mezzo-forte has nothing to do with it.
The object of learning to play is to realize just what is Not necessary to play what you want. Milton Trager said: Do it with half the effort.
I am currently writing the script for my dvd about how to play released - it's radical, very different than either classical or fiddle traditional physical ways and should help. I'll let you know when it's ready. Been figuring this out for 8 yrs - since Leap Day 1996, so I'm in no rush. But I've learned from this and other groups that everyone else is ready to stop hurting.
If you want to play the trad way (any variety) check out Kato Havas' website. She's the best for that.
I try to get to the actual essentials, and simplify for easier learning. Hope I succeed.
Also, your bow is an amplifyer, so a larger, fatter bow will help. I designed and use for 9 yrs a violin-length bow with cello frog, stick size and hair width, with black bass hair. This gives my violin a voice - my voice. Yeah. I fill up the world with this - playing on the street I can be heard as people round the corner, but they must get close to hear the band. haha "Isn't this bow heavy?" Dunno, I never lift it.
Rivinus used to live near me, and I played one of his violas at his place. Fits well, and easy to play. Perhaps too little wood in it - some wonder if enough to stand the test of time. I needed a 5-str at the time, so a 4-str viola was not for me. He said it took him 3 yrs to finalize his design - I said "only 3 yrs?" and he said he wished it had been sooner.
I suggest that you figure out, slowly as possible, just what hurts, and tighten enough to learn why, and then learn to release the harmful tensions. To play quietly actually requires more tensions than to fill the world. To play Big (loud is an inappropriate word. Big: fill up) it is necessary to release as much as poss so you actually depend from (on) the instr. People wonder that I can play so big, but it's much easier and more released than one might think - no holding up the R arm to play daintily.
Pressing more to become louder is defeating, because tensions cause contraction of muscles, therefore contraction of your sound.
Best wishes - playing is a study of ourselves, not of methods or techniques. And yes, a serious weekly massage will be necessary while you learn to relax. Alexander Technique, chiropractic, yoga (Menuhin), etc. - vlnplyr
# Posted on January 27th 2004 by vlnplyr
Re: physically falling apart
Hey Fiddlebug....I play fiddle in a Trad band as well and sets go on for hours....my advice to you is to drink heavily and all ele will fall into place.....It worked for me but now my liver hurts.
# Posted on January 27th 2004 by dinjosra