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Brunelleschi's marvellous dome of The Basilica di Santa Maria
Brunelleschi's marvellous dome of The Basilica di Santa Maria
I came up with this analogy on another thread about phrasing, but it got buried. So I just thought I'd run it past the general populace:
A lot of people play this music like it has some sort of internal solid scaffold. And the knack to it is to build the performance (in the definition of performance as to carry out an act of doing something, not the definition as to present before an audience - please let's not go there) around the scaffold. Some like to keep a significant amount of scaffold still visible. While others like to obscure the scaffold with their creation. And others like to be able to build a structure that can be free standing, they build around the scaffold until it is no longer needed and can be taken down.
I completely disagree. The best way to build your performance is to not split the thing up like this. The best of this music is like Brunelleschi's marvellous dome of The Basilica di Santa Maria del Fiore. The thing was conceived and executed with no scaffold. Every last brick is both free standing and integral.
Comparing good diddley music with bad diddley music is like comparing Brunelleschi's dome with Tower Bridge in London - a hideous monstrosity of Victorian gothic kitch stonework built to disguise a perfectly functioning and very clever cast iron machine.
Re: Brunelleschi's marvellous dome of The Basilica di Santa Maria
To be honest, I'm not sure your analogy works very well. I can't articulate a reason why it doesn't -- it just makes me think, "Eh?" Both music and buildings must have some sort of structure to them. Otherwise they don't work.
I do sort of get what you're trying to say but I don't think the analogy is very clear.
Re: Brunelleschi's marvellous dome of The Basilica di Santa Maria
Last sentence seems to introduce a second analogy - between "bad diddley music" and "a hideous monstrosity of Victorian gothic kitch stonework built to disguise a perfectly functioning and very clever cast iron machine". Did you mean that ?
Re: Brunelleschi's marvellous dome of The Basilica di Santa Maria
I like the general idea but as I have very little understanding of architecture (I had to look up the basilica on the internet) doesn't help me as much as just your words about hanging things on the structure versus something with the structure implied in the building of it (or something like that - is that what you're saying?)....
Need to think about the raft quote some more too....very interesting discussion!
Re: Brunelleschi's marvellous dome of The Basilica di Santa Maria
If I understand the analogy, I disagree. Building a dome without scaffolding, I imagine, requires the careful counterbalancing of forces, and if any one of which is misjudged, the entire edifice comes tumbling down. I think This Music is a bit more resilient than that, with not just one scaffold system, but several running through it: the rhythm, the phrasing, the lift, the system of statement, response and conclusion.
One thing about Brunelleschi’s dome that is analogous to my playing though is that when the dome was designed and construction started, they created a drum to support a dome that the then-current technology did not know how to finish. The started with the faith that they’d be able to finish it. Sometimes when I’m playing (maybe all too often to the people around me) I’ll get a thought to maybe alter a phrase, put in triplets, try out a roll, all on faith that I’ll come out the other end intact and won’t make a hash of it. I still crash and burn, but less and less.
Re: Brunelleschi's marvellous dome of The Basilica di Santa Maria
It's a question like: should you ever put down a burger once you have picked it up? Should you eat mutton khottu with your hands when in Sri Lanka but eat your curry goat with a fork when in Jamaica? Are the holes in the top of apepperpot multiple and those of the salt cellar singular 'coz you usually need more pepper than salt? Why on Earth did they choose 4 feet 8 and a half inches to be a standard railway gauge? (it's not even a rounded up metric measurement! (1.435 m)
Re: Brunelleschi's marvellous dome of The Basilica di Santa Maria
"Why on Earth did they choose 4 feet 8 and a half inches to be a standard railway gauge?" IIRC someone (someone famous I think) measured a load of horse-drawn carts and took the average. Hey - we could do that for reels and use it to set our me.... (sorry llig yhaalhouse started it)
Re: Brunelleschi's marvellous dome of The Basilica di Santa Maria
As I understood, it was where the ruts in the roads were - so it wasn't anyone taking the average, it was just that the average took itself.
But I haven't got any idea whether that comes from any reputable source or if it's just out of my head.
Re: Brunelleschi's marvellous dome of The Basilica di Santa Maria
I agree DJF, it may be a kitsch piece of Victoriana, but it is in keeping with its neighbouring attraction, the Tower of London. I work at Guy's, about half a mile away. I frequently run over Tower Bridge at lunchtimes and enjoy the experience.
If anything around here has an overly elaborated architecture it is michael's opening post
Re: Brunelleschi's marvellous dome of The Basilica di Santa Maria
The thing about Tower Bridge, and other Victorian engineering, is that it isn't a functional machine with Kitchh decoration stuck onto it. The decoration is an intergral part of the machine.
If the Victorians needed a pillar to support an axle, they would cast the pillar as a doric column. Today you would use an RSJ, and put a decorative fibre-glass sheath round it.
And that, to me is the difference between good and bad diddley. In the good stuff the decoration is an integral part of the tune. The bad stuff is where you start with a basic tune and plaster ornamentation onto it.
And it doesn't matter how much ornamentation you plaster on, if you remove the RSJ it's going to collapse. You can have the tune without the decoration, but you can't have the decoration without the tune.
Re: Brunelleschi's marvellous dome of The Basilica di Santa Maria
I see - so if I consider Tommy Peoples' playing to be highly creative and full of original and unique ideas - does that make him the Antoni Gaudi of Irish Music? Remove the creative and expressive elements and it's just a plain old building yes?
Re: Brunelleschi's marvellous dome of The Basilica di Santa Maria
Jigs tend to have a more regular and predictable structure and rhythm than reels. That will be why they are easier to play and also, probably, why reels are generally more popular.
Anyway, not wanting to spoil your conversation. Carry on....
Re: Brunelleschi's marvellous dome of The Basilica di Santa Maria
I did think there was something wonderfully perfect though about Ben saying that llig was trying too hard whilst spelling "too" wrong. He kind of emphasised his point in the way he wrote his post...
Re: Brunelleschi's marvellous dome of The Basilica di Santa Maria
I’m thinking it’s a small percentage of people whose knowledge of their own playing is nuanced enough for them to even begin contemplating where they fit in the analogy.
I, a poor player myself, have noticed this: 93% of folks are woozily weak-kneed up on the scaffolding, barely able to sloppily slap pre-fab polyurethane crown moulding along the Diddley Dome’s curvy bottom.
Re: Brunelleschi's marvellous dome of The Basilica di Santa Maria
I recommend Brunelleschi's Dome by Ross King, available from your favourite book seller.
It made me fight my vertigo and climb up the dome between the two layers. Absolutely stunning.
Re: Brunelleschi's marvellous dome of The Basilica di Santa Maria
I am in a bible study group using a book that reviews the last week of Jesus' life from the perspective of the Book of Mark. There is a chapter in the book for each day of the week. Mark does not mention anything that happened on the Saturday between Good Friday and Easter. Yet despite their source saying nothing, the authors filled that chapter with pages of theological speculation.
Unfortunately, llig, your analogy kind of reminded me of that chapter.
Re: Brunelleschi's marvellous dome of The Basilica di Santa Maria
Llig I think your opinion holds up if you're taught Irish Trad while
young by a real Trad musician, by ear, before some other music
teacher gets in there first.
A lot of us though - probably most - have the idea of tunes made
up of notes and barlines already ingrained first. You can't really
unlearn that. So you learn your Trad tunes by the 'scaffold method' -
getting the notes down first - even if it's by ear.
I think you can hear the difference. Compare Martin Hayes with ... say
Sean Smythe, or compare Tommy Peoples with Kevin Burke. Make
your own comparisons - I always pick these big celebrity players as
examples, 'cos everyone knows them.
Re: Brunelleschi's marvellous dome of The Basilica di Santa Maria
I think, Hup that while we persist in refusing to unlearn the barlines and the notes, still consider our playing as covering up the scaffold (or decorating the christmas tree, which seems to be a similar analogy) we will always be artificially limited in our ability.
(I say "we", because I hear in your playing both where I hope to be in the next step of my development, but also where I'm afraid I might remain)
Re: Brunelleschi's marvellous dome of The Basilica di Santa Maria
Hup, that's a good reason to forgo the dots and learn by ear and by natural phrasing that moves around. It's such an important point of entry into this music.
Re: Brunelleschi's marvellous dome of The Basilica di Santa Maria
Arcitecture has more in common with classical music:
It has blueprints-"the dots"
Both are planned out well in advance.
Much of the best architecture and the best classical have every aspect analyzed and well placed very purposely and intentionally.
"diddly" music, on the other hand, based off of a very rough draft of an idea, is off the cuff, improvisational, inspirational, free flowing, and spirited.
Brunelleschi's dome may be good architecture, and not have used scaffolding, but does that mean if it DOES use scaffolding is is BAD architecture? Probably
Re: Brunelleschi's marvellous dome of The Basilica di Santa Maria
(oops, accidentally posted ahead of time)
Probably not the case, as I'm sure there is good architecture that has used scaffolding. Now, does letting go of the concept of phrases help become a better trad player? I dunno, but the concept is a common one, and there are many, many people who are much better musicians than I who use the concept as a tool to help think of the music.
Much of it, I think, comes down to ability and skill. Not everyone can be a Brunelleschi, or a Tommy Peoples. It is good to aspire and work towards that goal, but that is not the goal everyone has when playing this music. Brilliant world class architecture is wonderful, but a simple shack down by the lake has its pleasures too.
Re: Brunelleschi's marvellous dome of The Basilica di Santa Maria
I think it's the 'concept ' of phrases that's causing the problem here. Letting go of the concept is the last thing you should do. It is the pre-conceived phrasing derived from the written score that should be avoided. I have been trying to think of an analogy and failed miserably. The best I can come up with is a sand-pit. There's your tune -- get in a play. How you arrange the sand is up to you, as long as you stay within the boundary. The arranging of the sand is the phrasing.
Re: Brunelleschi's marvellous dome of The Basilica di Santa Maria
"Architecture has more in common with classical music... ...Both are planned out well in advance." (violamike)
Yes, so its a bad analogy.
Its possible for kids to learn all sorts of songs by mimicry, its possible to hum along to some tune in a wierd eastern european rhythm by hearing it a lot. A drone may help the kids sing in tune, but they son't have to know anything about music. Somone experienced clapping along to a balkan dance tune may help, but you don't have to know its in 5/4 or whatever.
Is mimicry without theory like building without a scaffold ? Are the drone and the clapping scaffolds ? Or is the theory the scaffold ?
Re: Brunelleschi's marvellous dome of The Basilica di Santa Maria
I made a mistake in my original post by using the pejorative "hideous monstrosity of Victorian gothic kitch".
The analogy was supposed to have nothing to do with the aesthetic qualities of architecture, it was about the reasons for and processes of building things. Building/making anything.
Whether you like Tower Bridge was not supposed to matter (that was my mistake). But what is relevant to the analogy is that Tower Bridge is fundamentally a dishonest structure. It is veneered.
Where as the dome of the Basilica di Santa Maria (I've removed the pejorative) shows Brunelleschi to be an extraordinary joined-up thinker. His is a creation where all the pieces of brick, tile, mortar, stone and oak are not only integral parts of a self supporting structure, but are also the only parts required during the process of the creation.
(And as an ironic aside: While Tower Bridge remains a very functional construction, enabling both land traffic to cross a river and river traffic to cross beneath, Brunelleschi's dome has no practical function whatsoever.)
Re: Brunelleschi's marvellous dome of The Basilica di Santa Maria
Maybe off topic, but the analogy drove my thoughts this way. How a about contrasting a tree, which is self-supporting and doesn't need joined up thinking to create (but may benefit from some to help some human purpose) with one of those cellphone masts disguised as a Scot's pine.
Re: Brunelleschi's marvellous dome of The Basilica di Santa Maria
Thinking on this more.... I'm guess what Michael means by "bad diddley" is someone who struggles through the tune, playing stiffly and rigidly, as if they just learned it off the dots. Or maybe he means your average session player, who can play decently but isn't going to be Matt Molloy. I hope he doesn't mean the latter, cause that's a bit unfair. Not everyone who plays tunes is going to be Molloy and neither will every architect be Brunelleschi even if they can design a perfectly functional building.
Assuming he means the former then, the analogy still doesn't work because the stiff, rigid, rhythmically uneven tune isn't working very well as a tune. Tower Bridge, on the other hand, works very well as a bridge. It hasn't fallen down and it does its job pretty well. And it looks kind of cool. Maybe not as cool as the Basilica, but it does have a job to do, being a drawbridge, whereas all cathedrals have to do is not fall down and look pretty. If you have to compare Irish music to architecture, maybe it's better to analogise your badly played tune to a caravan park in the Midwestern US. Not only is it a bit ugly, it's not very functional as they tend to blow away when a tornado comes plowing through.
Re: Brunelleschi's marvellous dome of The Basilica di Santa Maria
" But what is relevant to the analogy is that Tower Bridge is fundamentally a dishonest structure. It is veneered."
It is no just to look "nice", it also protects the metal from the elements.
"but are also the only parts required during the process of the creation."
Plus a scale model and a fecking great hoist.
Wren's dome of St Paul's took the double skin method a bit further (and the method of design, at a pinch, could be compared to classical composition) The most remarkable thing about Brunelleschi's dome is that it was ahead of its time.
Re: Brunelleschi's marvellous dome of The Basilica di Santa Maria
I think I'm on Llig's wavelength - I know what he's getting at.
Extending Llig's metaphor and aesthetic, an African mud hut is superior to the "Gherkin" and the Sydney Opera House. Well, the
Gherkin anyhow I hope I can at least fake that organic style
eventually, but I'm getting old and I've had a lot of classical music
indoctrination.
My obsession right now is getting a strong pulse into the music.
Phrasing that moves around in interesting ways is a nice goal.
I know what that is and I can recognise it, but I'd be happy if I can
just get a strong pulse into every tune - especially reels and
especially on the fiddle.
Re: Brunelleschi's marvellous dome of The Basilica di Santa Maria
You of all people, llig.The dome is a static inanimate object with no redeeming features apart from the fact that it may be pleasing to the eye and rather cleverly constructed. ITM, on the other hand, is free flowing and constructed to allow the imaginative expression of the player to unfurl the endless threads of possibility. I know which I prefer..
Re: Brunelleschi's marvellous dome of The Basilica di Santa Maria
OK, I'll spell it out:
Good diddley music is not a veneered inner structure. Good diddley music does not require any form of support in its creation. All of the bits of good diddley music are not only integral parts of a self supporting structure, but are also the only parts required during the process of the creation.
Re: Brunelleschi's marvellous dome of The Basilica di Santa Maria
Sir, I bow to your inferior intellect. However, in my world, inferior is at least as preferable as superior so you may interpret my response as you see fit. I'm happy with that.
Re: Brunelleschi's marvellous dome of The Basilica di Santa Maria
"fer chris' sake, I never said good diddley music was like Brunelleschi's dome "
"The best of this music is like Brunelleschi's marvellous dome of The Basilica di Santa Maria del Fiore. The thing was conceived and executed with no scaffold. Every last brick is both free standing and integral."
Re: Brunelleschi's marvellous dome of The Basilica di Santa Maria
"Good diddley music is not a veneered inner structure. Good diddley music does not require any form of support in its creation. All of the bits of good diddley music are not only integral parts of a self supporting structure, but are also the only parts required during the process of the creation."
I going to go along with strayaway here and also bow to your superior intellect, as I can't figure out what on earth that means, for music or architecture, but I assume if I knew more about both, then it would make sense.
Re: Brunelleschi's marvellous dome of The Basilica di Santa Maria
I think I get it - but I disagree with it. Music and its interpretation are veneers over an inner structure. The structure is the tune, and the musician creates the veneer. The more experienced the player, the more interesting the veneer.
Re: Brunelleschi's marvellous dome of The Basilica di Santa Maria
In general analogies are useful for simplifying an explanation, however here the analogy is or became more complicated than the subject matter itself, we're bordering on intellectual masturbation with this one.
"Brunelleschi's design contained two shells for the dome, an inner shell made of a lightweight material, and an outer shell of heavier wind-resistant materials. By creating two domes, Brunelleschi solved the problem of weight during construction because workers could sit atop the inner shell to build the outer shell of the dome. " http://www.obscure.org/~perky/uofr/fall2002/ISYS203U/Duomo_Site/construction.html
"A lot of people play this music like it has some sort of internal solid scaffold...
"I completely disagree. The best way to build your performance is to not split the thing up like this. The best of this music is like ... ____ ... conceived and executed with no scaffold. Every last ____ is both free standing and integral."
Re: Brunelleschi's marvellous dome of The Basilica di Santa Maria
"Good diddley music is not a veneered inner structure. Good diddley music does not require any form of support in its creation. All of the bits of good diddley music are not only integral parts of a self supporting structure, but are also the only parts required during the process of the creation."
Thank you for spelling it out for those of us who are a little thick. LOL
Let me see if I'm starting to get your drift....the things that are structure are things like rhythm, phrases, etc The veneer is phrasing (as opposed to phrases), ornaments, etc
Does that sound right?
And many players approach learning the music by learning the notes/rhythm/phrases and then "hanging" ornaments, bowing, phrasing and so on on it....like a formula of sorts with interchangeable pieces.
While other players learn the "tune" as a given - structure and veneer all one piece. (Though how do they learn to vary it later? Or do they then always play it the way they first learned it?)
I think the great players probably DO think holistically more than piece meal (though the may have learned the other way back in the day maybe - but now it's all one thing for them I'd guess)....though they are now playing the version they hear in their head as all one thing.....
Like when you hear all the "variations" in a tune on every pass - if you asked that player how does the tune goes they would say THAT'S how it goes - variations, rhythm, phrasing and all! Because it's all one thing to them.
Re: Brunelleschi's marvellous dome of The Basilica di Santa Maria
Should good Diddley-domes be a bit too heavy for the walls directly below them? That's what happened to the Duomo. Thick bands of iron had to be placed carefully around the outside of the supporting wall, just under the dome, to keep said wall from collapsing outward. While this corrective measure results in something of an eyesore, can it be said to be technically the fault of the architect who added the dome? Can Diddley-domes really ever get away from some kind of iron support? Doubtful....
Re: Brunelleschi's marvellous dome of The Basilica di Santa Maria
The supporting structure we don't need is guitar and bodhrans? So we aren't talking about buildings, we are dragging out the old 'backers are useless' discussion for the thousandth time? I am so confused......
Re: Brunelleschi's marvellous dome of The Basilica di Santa Maria
It's all a bit of a laugh on session.org - lighten up Al. Where I usually
play, on bad days the thing would fall apart without someone
vigorously thrashing a guitar or bouzouki and a couple of people urgently
stamping their feet.
Buy 'Comb your Hair and Curl it' to hear session Nirvana - four "melody"
players weaving their own accompaniment and rhythm into the music
Re: Brunelleschi's marvellous dome of The Basilica di Santa Maria
Well at least someone gets it. thanks thejigisup.
And though he disagrees, I think Jusa Nutter Eejit gets it too. I'm of the opinion that if the musician creates a veneer over the tune, he's spoiling the tune by obscuring it. Unfortunately, very common in this music.
Re: Brunelleschi's marvellous dome of The Basilica di Santa Maria
Do you play that way Lllig? I remember you saying once you
have a brother who plays jazz. That means you don't come to
Trad from a pure, naive background. You're not a simple man
of the land without education, playing on instinct. Although the
early jazz players often *were* like that, not uni-educated the
way they are these days.
Re: Brunelleschi's marvellous dome of The Basilica di Santa Maria
Don't turn out the lights until I explain to Hup that I don't need to lighten up, I had my tongue firmly in cheek when I wrote my last comment. Guess I should have included a smiley face. Good night, all!
Re: Brunelleschi's marvellous dome of The Basilica di Santa Maria
Cheers Ben! Don't know about his contribution of heavy metal. I think someone else added that detail, sometime after his era. Along with designing that dome, he is credited with the invention of a reverse gear for heavy hoists enabling the oxen (or the men) walking on the hamster wheel to go in one direction all day, whether the hoist was lifting or lowering. For this inovation alone, he was light years out ahead of your average session player....
Re: Brunelleschi's marvellous dome of The Basilica di Santa Maria
The thread which never dies. Cheers, Atahualpa. Cheers, Filippo Brunelleschi; an artist & innovator in your time & for the ages. Cheers, Llig Leahcim!
I prefer a good metaphor to the sometimes bulky analogies. No offense. Here is my attempt ~ A good session is Brunelleschi's Sacrifice of Issac with everything needed to feel the passion being experienced. A lesser session is Ghiberti's bronze which is from the same sacrifice, yet it is little more than a pretty rendering with all that is expected of such a work.
Re: Brunelleschi's marvellous dome of The Basilica di Santa Maria
Maybe that metaphor/analogy belies something more important about diddley sessions in general? I, not being trained in the appreciation of such reliefs, cannot tell them apart.
Re: Brunelleschi's marvellous dome of The Basilica di Santa Maria
I wonder if Mr Leahcim's original comment was influenced by his Edingburgh heritage - particularly the lovely Morningside? All knickers, and nae fur coat. Or maybe I spend too much time by myself ...
Re: Brunelleschi's marvellous dome of The Basilica di Santa Maria
Morningside is pure Victorian mock Georgian. But there's some really good Italian influenced stuff down in Leith (though Glasgow is even better for that kind of thing).
Brunelleschi's marvellous dome of The Basilica di Santa Maria
Brunelleschi's marvellous dome of The Basilica di Santa Maria
I came up with this analogy on another thread about phrasing, but it got buried. So I just thought I'd run it past the general populace:
A lot of people play this music like it has some sort of internal solid scaffold. And the knack to it is to build the performance (in the definition of performance as to carry out an act of doing something, not the definition as to present before an audience - please let's not go there) around the scaffold. Some like to keep a significant amount of scaffold still visible. While others like to obscure the scaffold with their creation. And others like to be able to build a structure that can be free standing, they build around the scaffold until it is no longer needed and can be taken down.
I completely disagree. The best way to build your performance is to not split the thing up like this. The best of this music is like Brunelleschi's marvellous dome of The Basilica di Santa Maria del Fiore. The thing was conceived and executed with no scaffold. Every last brick is both free standing and integral.
Comparing good diddley music with bad diddley music is like comparing Brunelleschi's dome with Tower Bridge in London - a hideous monstrosity of Victorian gothic kitch stonework built to disguise a perfectly functioning and very clever cast iron machine.
# Posted on April 13th 2011 by ...
You're trying to hard
# Posted on April 13th 2011 by Ben Steen
~
consider Buddha's story of the raft
# Posted on April 13th 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: Brunelleschi's marvellous dome of The Basilica di Santa Maria
To be honest, I'm not sure your analogy works very well. I can't articulate a reason why it doesn't -- it just makes me think, "Eh?" Both music and buildings must have some sort of structure to them. Otherwise they don't work.
I do sort of get what you're trying to say but I don't think the analogy is very clear.
# Posted on April 13th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Brunelleschi's marvellous dome of The Basilica di Santa Maria
"The Dharma is like a raft which is used for crossing over to enlightenment but is not for holding onto."
# Posted on April 13th 2011 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Brunelleschi's marvellous dome of The Basilica di Santa Maria
Last sentence seems to introduce a second analogy - between "bad diddley music" and "a hideous monstrosity of Victorian gothic kitch stonework built to disguise a perfectly functioning and very clever cast iron machine". Did you mean that ?
# Posted on April 13th 2011 by David50
Re: Brunelleschi's marvellous dome of The Basilica di Santa Maria
I like the general idea but as I have very little understanding of architecture (I had to look up the basilica on the internet) doesn't help me as much as just your words about hanging things on the structure versus something with the structure implied in the building of it (or something like that - is that what you're saying?)....
Need to think about the raft quote some more too....very interesting discussion!
# Posted on April 13th 2011 by thejigisup
Re: Brunelleschi's marvellous dome of The Basilica di Santa Maria
If I understand the analogy, I disagree. Building a dome without scaffolding, I imagine, requires the careful counterbalancing of forces, and if any one of which is misjudged, the entire edifice comes tumbling down. I think This Music is a bit more resilient than that, with not just one scaffold system, but several running through it: the rhythm, the phrasing, the lift, the system of statement, response and conclusion.
One thing about Brunelleschi’s dome that is analogous to my playing though is that when the dome was designed and construction started, they created a drum to support a dome that the then-current technology did not know how to finish. The started with the faith that they’d be able to finish it. Sometimes when I’m playing (maybe all too often to the people around me) I’ll get a thought to maybe alter a phrase, put in triplets, try out a roll, all on faith that I’ll come out the other end intact and won’t make a hash of it. I still crash and burn, but less and less.
# Posted on April 13th 2011 by fidkid
Re: Brunelleschi's marvellous dome of The Basilica di Santa Maria
It's a question like: should you ever put down a burger once you have picked it up? Should you eat mutton khottu with your hands when in Sri Lanka but eat your curry goat with a fork when in Jamaica? Are the holes in the top of apepperpot multiple and those of the salt cellar singular 'coz you usually need more pepper than salt? Why on Earth did they choose 4 feet 8 and a half inches to be a standard railway gauge? (it's not even a rounded up metric measurement! (1.435 m)
# Posted on April 13th 2011 by yhaalhouse
Re: Brunelleschi's marvellous dome of The Basilica di Santa Maria
"Why on Earth did they choose 4 feet 8 and a half inches to be a standard railway gauge?" IIRC someone (someone famous I think) measured a load of horse-drawn carts and took the average. Hey - we could do that for reels and use it to set our me.... (sorry llig yhaalhouse started it)
# Posted on April 13th 2011 by David50
Re: Brunelleschi's marvellous dome of The Basilica di Santa Maria
As I understood, it was where the ruts in the roads were - so it wasn't anyone taking the average, it was just that the average took itself.
But I haven't got any idea whether that comes from any reputable source or if it's just out of my head.
# Posted on April 13th 2011 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Brunelleschi's marvellous dome of The Basilica di Santa Maria
how is the Tower Bridge hideous, it's a marvellous piece of architecture
# Posted on April 13th 2011 by I ♥ Dow
Re: Brunelleschi's marvellous dome of The Basilica di Santa Maria
I agree DJF, it may be a kitsch piece of Victoriana, but it is in keeping with its neighbouring attraction, the Tower of London. I work at Guy's, about half a mile away. I frequently run over Tower Bridge at lunchtimes and enjoy the experience.
If anything around here has an overly elaborated architecture it is michael's opening post
# Posted on April 13th 2011 by Rudall the time
Re: Brunelleschi's marvellous dome of The Basilica di Santa Maria
I think this is the difference between good and bad art in general.
In good art, form and function/meaning work together seamlessly. In bad art they stand out.
# Posted on April 13th 2011 by Tirno
Llig
you are starting to sound positively Miesian!
# Posted on April 13th 2011 by zippydw
Re: Brunelleschi's marvellous dome of The Basilica di Santa Maria
"Every last brick is both free standing and integral." I think that statement is misleading.
http://www.obscure.org/~perky/uofr/fall2002/ISYS203U/Duomo_Site/construction.html
# Posted on April 13th 2011 by David50
Re: Brunelleschi's marvellous dome of The Basilica di Santa Maria
The thing about Tower Bridge, and other Victorian engineering, is that it isn't a functional machine with Kitchh decoration stuck onto it. The decoration is an intergral part of the machine.
If the Victorians needed a pillar to support an axle, they would cast the pillar as a doric column. Today you would use an RSJ, and put a decorative fibre-glass sheath round it.
And that, to me is the difference between good and bad diddley. In the good stuff the decoration is an integral part of the tune. The bad stuff is where you start with a basic tune and plaster ornamentation onto it.
And it doesn't matter how much ornamentation you plaster on, if you remove the RSJ it's going to collapse. You can have the tune without the decoration, but you can't have the decoration without the tune.
# Posted on April 13th 2011 by skreech
Re: Brunelleschi's marvellous dome of The Basilica di Santa Maria
I see - so if I consider Tommy Peoples' playing to be highly creative and full of original and unique ideas - does that make him the Antoni Gaudi of Irish Music? Remove the creative and expressive elements and it's just a plain old building yes?
# Posted on April 13th 2011 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Brunelleschi's marvellous dome of The Basilica di Santa Maria
no. not necessarily.
There is beauty, elegance and intellectual integrity in simplicity. Maybe that's why certain architecture and properly done diddly stands out.
There is an obvious difference between a jewel and lipstick applied generously to a pig.
# Posted on April 13th 2011 by zippydw
Re: Brunelleschi's marvellous dome of The Basilica di Santa Maria
Jigs tend to have a more regular and predictable structure and rhythm than reels. That will be why they are easier to play and also, probably, why reels are generally more popular.
Anyway, not wanting to spoil your conversation. Carry on....
# Posted on April 13th 2011 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Brunelleschi's marvellous dome of The Basilica di Santa Maria
I did think there was something wonderfully perfect though about Ben saying that llig was trying too hard whilst spelling "too" wrong. He kind of emphasised his point in the way he wrote his post...
# Posted on April 13th 2011 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Brunelleschi's marvellous dome of The Basilica di Santa Maria
...ruining it then by waffling on about Buddha.
# Posted on April 13th 2011 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Brunelleschi's marvellous dome of The Basilica di Santa Maria
Presumably it's possible to pick holes in any analogy, 'cos otherwise it's identical to the thing itself, (and therefore isn't one.)
But I like Michael's dome analogy, enjoyable for itself and illustrates a point well. Then move on.
# Posted on April 13th 2011 by TomB-R
Re: Brunelleschi's marvellous dome of The Basilica di Santa Maria
I’m thinking it’s a small percentage of people whose knowledge of their own playing is nuanced enough for them to even begin contemplating where they fit in the analogy.
I, a poor player myself, have noticed this: 93% of folks are woozily weak-kneed up on the scaffolding, barely able to sloppily slap pre-fab polyurethane crown moulding along the Diddley Dome’s curvy bottom.
# Posted on April 13th 2011 by NEW Pure Drop® Ear Canal Oil
Re: Brunelleschi's marvellous dome of The Basilica di Santa Maria
I recommend Brunelleschi's Dome by Ross King, available from your favourite book seller.
It made me fight my vertigo and climb up the dome between the two layers. Absolutely stunning.
# Posted on April 14th 2011 by Lurcherjohn
Re: Brunelleschi's marvellous dome of The Basilica di Santa Maria
Buddha said: There are a million ways of making a eejit of yourself.
# Posted on April 14th 2011 by yhaalhouse
Would a bald pig, regardless of the amount of lipstick applied but employing a peruke use SyrupStik or something inferior?
Is this original posting a jewell or lipstick applied generously to a pig?
# Posted on April 14th 2011 by yhaalhouse
Brunell's marvellous railway station of The Basilica di Temple Meads.
Bugger! Guatama was right!
# Posted on April 14th 2011 by yhaalhouse
Re: Brunelleschi's marvellous dome of The Basilica di Santa Maria
I am in a bible study group using a book that reviews the last week of Jesus' life from the perspective of the Book of Mark. There is a chapter in the book for each day of the week. Mark does not mention anything that happened on the Saturday between Good Friday and Easter. Yet despite their source saying nothing, the authors filled that chapter with pages of theological speculation.
Unfortunately, llig, your analogy kind of reminded me of that chapter.
# Posted on April 14th 2011 by AlBrown
Re: Brunelleschi's marvellous dome of The Basilica di Santa Maria
Llig I think your opinion holds up if you're taught Irish Trad while
young by a real Trad musician, by ear, before some other music
teacher gets in there first.
A lot of us though - probably most - have the idea of tunes made
up of notes and barlines already ingrained first. You can't really
unlearn that. So you learn your Trad tunes by the 'scaffold method' -
getting the notes down first - even if it's by ear.
I think you can hear the difference. Compare Martin Hayes with ... say
Sean Smythe, or compare Tommy Peoples with Kevin Burke. Make
your own comparisons - I always pick these big celebrity players as
examples, 'cos everyone knows them.
# Posted on April 14th 2011 by Hup
Re: Brunelleschi's marvellous dome of The Basilica di Santa Maria
I think, Hup that while we persist in refusing to unlearn the barlines and the notes, still consider our playing as covering up the scaffold (or decorating the christmas tree, which seems to be a similar analogy) we will always be artificially limited in our ability.
(I say "we", because I hear in your playing both where I hope to be in the next step of my development, but also where I'm afraid I might remain)
# Posted on April 14th 2011 by Tirno
Re: Brunelleschi's marvellous dome of The Basilica di Santa Maria
Hup, that's a good reason to forgo the dots and learn by ear and by natural phrasing that moves around. It's such an important point of entry into this music.
# Posted on April 14th 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: Brunelleschi's marvellous dome of The Basilica di Santa Maria
That said, nothing's "unlearnable."
T-shirts I've seen in the past few months (pick your poison):
"Nothing's wrong with me that can't be fixed by ice cream."
and
"All my flaws are just a six-pack from oblivion."
# Posted on April 14th 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: Brunelleschi's marvellous dome of The Basilica di Santa Maria
Arcitecture has more in common with classical music:
It has blueprints-"the dots"
Both are planned out well in advance.
Much of the best architecture and the best classical have every aspect analyzed and well placed very purposely and intentionally.
"diddly" music, on the other hand, based off of a very rough draft of an idea, is off the cuff, improvisational, inspirational, free flowing, and spirited.
Brunelleschi's dome may be good architecture, and not have used scaffolding, but does that mean if it DOES use scaffolding is is BAD architecture? Probably
# Posted on April 14th 2011 by banshee misfortune
Re: Brunelleschi's marvellous dome of The Basilica di Santa Maria
(oops, accidentally posted ahead of time)
Probably not the case, as I'm sure there is good architecture that has used scaffolding. Now, does letting go of the concept of phrases help become a better trad player? I dunno, but the concept is a common one, and there are many, many people who are much better musicians than I who use the concept as a tool to help think of the music.
Much of it, I think, comes down to ability and skill. Not everyone can be a Brunelleschi, or a Tommy Peoples. It is good to aspire and work towards that goal, but that is not the goal everyone has when playing this music. Brilliant world class architecture is wonderful, but a simple shack down by the lake has its pleasures too.
# Posted on April 14th 2011 by banshee misfortune
Re: Brunelleschi's marvellous dome of The Basilica di Santa Maria
I think it's the 'concept ' of phrases that's causing the problem here. Letting go of the concept is the last thing you should do. It is the pre-conceived phrasing derived from the written score that should be avoided. I have been trying to think of an analogy and failed miserably. The best I can come up with is a sand-pit. There's your tune -- get in a play. How you arrange the sand is up to you, as long as you stay within the boundary. The arranging of the sand is the phrasing.
# Posted on April 14th 2011 by gam
Re: Brunelleschi's marvellous dome of The Basilica di Santa Maria
"Architecture has more in common with classical music... ...Both are planned out well in advance." (violamike)
Yes, so its a bad analogy.
Its possible for kids to learn all sorts of songs by mimicry, its possible to hum along to some tune in a wierd eastern european rhythm by hearing it a lot. A drone may help the kids sing in tune, but they son't have to know anything about music. Somone experienced clapping along to a balkan dance tune may help, but you don't have to know its in 5/4 or whatever.
Is mimicry without theory like building without a scaffold ? Are the drone and the clapping scaffolds ? Or is the theory the scaffold ?
# Posted on April 14th 2011 by David50
Re: Brunelleschi's marvellous dome of The Basilica di Santa Maria
Or is the 'theory' the scaffold ? (correction)
# Posted on April 14th 2011 by David50
Re: Brunelleschi's marvellous dome of The Basilica di Santa Maria
... and sorry about the other two missing apostrophes.
# Posted on April 14th 2011 by David50
Re: Brunelleschi's marvellous dome of The Basilica di Santa Maria
I made a mistake in my original post by using the pejorative "hideous monstrosity of Victorian gothic kitch".
The analogy was supposed to have nothing to do with the aesthetic qualities of architecture, it was about the reasons for and processes of building things. Building/making anything.
Whether you like Tower Bridge was not supposed to matter (that was my mistake). But what is relevant to the analogy is that Tower Bridge is fundamentally a dishonest structure. It is veneered.
Where as the dome of the Basilica di Santa Maria (I've removed the pejorative) shows Brunelleschi to be an extraordinary joined-up thinker. His is a creation where all the pieces of brick, tile, mortar, stone and oak are not only integral parts of a self supporting structure, but are also the only parts required during the process of the creation.
(And as an ironic aside: While Tower Bridge remains a very functional construction, enabling both land traffic to cross a river and river traffic to cross beneath, Brunelleschi's dome has no practical function whatsoever.)
# Posted on April 14th 2011 by ...
Re: Brunelleschi's marvellous dome of The Basilica di Santa Maria
I still have to think quite hard about how to relate that to playing Irish music. The analogy doesn't fit the thing it's intended to describe.
# Posted on April 14th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Brunelleschi's marvellous dome of The Basilica di Santa Maria
Maybe off topic, but the analogy drove my thoughts this way. How a about contrasting a tree, which is self-supporting and doesn't need joined up thinking to create (but may benefit from some to help some human purpose) with one of those cellphone masts disguised as a Scot's pine.
# Posted on April 14th 2011 by David50
Re: Brunelleschi's marvellous dome of The Basilica di Santa Maria
Thinking on this more.... I'm guess what Michael means by "bad diddley" is someone who struggles through the tune, playing stiffly and rigidly, as if they just learned it off the dots. Or maybe he means your average session player, who can play decently but isn't going to be Matt Molloy. I hope he doesn't mean the latter, cause that's a bit unfair. Not everyone who plays tunes is going to be Molloy and neither will every architect be Brunelleschi even if they can design a perfectly functional building.
Assuming he means the former then, the analogy still doesn't work because the stiff, rigid, rhythmically uneven tune isn't working very well as a tune. Tower Bridge, on the other hand, works very well as a bridge. It hasn't fallen down and it does its job pretty well. And it looks kind of cool. Maybe not as cool as the Basilica, but it does have a job to do, being a drawbridge, whereas all cathedrals have to do is not fall down and look pretty. If you have to compare Irish music to architecture, maybe it's better to analogise your badly played tune to a caravan park in the Midwestern US. Not only is it a bit ugly, it's not very functional as they tend to blow away when a tornado comes plowing through.
# Posted on April 14th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Brunelleschi's marvellous dome of The Basilica di Santa Maria
" But what is relevant to the analogy is that Tower Bridge is fundamentally a dishonest structure. It is veneered."
It is no just to look "nice", it also protects the metal from the elements.
"but are also the only parts required during the process of the creation."
Plus a scale model and a fecking great hoist.
Wren's dome of St Paul's took the double skin method a bit further (and the method of design, at a pinch, could be compared to classical composition) The most remarkable thing about Brunelleschi's dome is that it was ahead of its time.
# Posted on April 14th 2011 by Weejie
Re: Brunelleschi's marvellous dome of The Basilica di Santa Maria
"When the seagulls follow the trawler, it is because they think sardines will be thrown into the sea."
(Eric Cantona)
# Posted on April 14th 2011 by Steve Shaw
Re: Brunelleschi's marvellous dome of The Basilica di Santa Maria
Round here it's more common to throw some offal overboard and watch the feeding frenzy. (not meaning this thread)
# Posted on April 14th 2011 by David50
Re: Brunelleschi's marvellous dome of The Basilica di Santa Maria
I think I'm on Llig's wavelength - I know what he's getting at.
I hope I can at least fake that organic style
Extending Llig's metaphor and aesthetic, an African mud hut is superior to the "Gherkin" and the Sydney Opera House. Well, the
Gherkin anyhow
eventually, but I'm getting old and I've had a lot of classical music
indoctrination.
My obsession right now is getting a strong pulse into the music.
Phrasing that moves around in interesting ways is a nice goal.
I know what that is and I can recognise it, but I'd be happy if I can
just get a strong pulse into every tune - especially reels and
especially on the fiddle.
# Posted on April 14th 2011 by Hup
Re: Brunelleschi's marvellous dome of The Basilica di Santa Maria
["When the seagulls follow the trawler, it is because they think sardines will be thrown into the sea."
(Eric Cantona)]
The gulls should have sussed they get a lot more, thanks to EU regulations.
# Posted on April 14th 2011 by Weejie
Re: Brunelleschi's marvellous dome of The Basilica di Santa Maria
Much of music is more like Pozzo's tromp-l'oeil ceiling, I'd say!
http://www.flickr.com/photos/earthmagnified/3429037908/
I aspire to sound better than I play.
# Posted on April 14th 2011 by curamach
Re: Brunelleschi's marvellous dome of The Basilica di Santa Maria
PS. the Brunelleschi dome is marvelous, as is his work on perspective.
# Posted on April 14th 2011 by curamach
Re: Brunelleschi's marvellous dome of The Basilica di Santa Maria
You of all people, llig.The dome is a static inanimate object with no redeeming features apart from the fact that it may be pleasing to the eye and rather cleverly constructed. ITM, on the other hand, is free flowing and constructed to allow the imaginative expression of the player to unfurl the endless threads of possibility. I know which I prefer..
# Posted on April 14th 2011 by strayaway
Re: Brunelleschi's marvellous dome of The Basilica di Santa Maria
Do we have to choose?
# Posted on April 14th 2011 by Steve Shaw
Re: Brunelleschi's marvellous dome of The Basilica di Santa Maria
Absolutely not, Steve. Prefer.
# Posted on April 14th 2011 by strayaway
Re: Brunelleschi's marvellous dome of The Basilica di Santa Maria
fer chris' sake, I never said good diddley music was like Brunelleschi's dome and bad diddley music was like Tower Bridge.
I said comparing good diddley music with bad diddley music is like comparing Brunelleschi's dome with Tower Bridge
# Posted on April 14th 2011 by ...
Re: Brunelleschi's marvellous dome of The Basilica di Santa Maria
That still doesn't make much sense.
# Posted on April 14th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Brunelleschi's marvellous dome of The Basilica di Santa Maria
Ahh, you mean it's a personal comparative interpretation of good and bad. No wrong answers there now, is there?
# Posted on April 14th 2011 by strayaway
Re: Brunelleschi's marvellous dome of The Basilica di Santa Maria
OK, I'll spell it out:
Good diddley music is not a veneered inner structure. Good diddley music does not require any form of support in its creation. All of the bits of good diddley music are not only integral parts of a self supporting structure, but are also the only parts required during the process of the creation.
# Posted on April 14th 2011 by ...
Re: Brunelleschi's marvellous dome of The Basilica di Santa Maria
Sir, I bow to your inferior intellect. However, in my world, inferior is at least as preferable as superior so you may interpret my response as you see fit. I'm happy with that.
# Posted on April 14th 2011 by strayaway
Re: Brunelleschi's marvellous dome of The Basilica di Santa Maria
"fer chris' sake, I never said good diddley music was like Brunelleschi's dome "
"The best of this music is like Brunelleschi's marvellous dome of The Basilica di Santa Maria del Fiore. The thing was conceived and executed with no scaffold. Every last brick is both free standing and integral."
That part of it appears to say as much.
# Posted on April 14th 2011 by Weejie
Re: Brunelleschi's marvellous dome of The Basilica di Santa Maria
within the context of:
"Comparing good diddley music with bad diddley music is like comparing Brunelleschi's dome with Tower Bridge"
from the OP
# Posted on April 14th 2011 by ...
Re: Brunelleschi's marvellous dome of The Basilica di Santa Maria
"Good diddley music is not a veneered inner structure. Good diddley music does not require any form of support in its creation. All of the bits of good diddley music are not only integral parts of a self supporting structure, but are also the only parts required during the process of the creation."
I going to go along with strayaway here and also bow to your superior intellect, as I can't figure out what on earth that means, for music or architecture, but I assume if I knew more about both, then it would make sense.
# Posted on April 14th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Brunelleschi's marvellous dome of The Basilica di Santa Maria
I think I get it - but I disagree with it. Music and its interpretation are veneers over an inner structure. The structure is the tune, and the musician creates the veneer. The more experienced the player, the more interesting the veneer.
# Posted on April 14th 2011 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Brunelleschi's marvellous dome of The Basilica di Santa Maria
In general analogies are useful for simplifying an explanation, however here the analogy is or became more complicated than the subject matter itself, we're bordering on intellectual masturbation with this one.
# Posted on April 14th 2011 by Theirlandais
Re: Brunelleschi's marvellous dome of The Basilica di Santa Maria
Well said, Theirlandais.
# Posted on April 14th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Brunelleschi's marvellous dome of The Basilica di Santa Maria
Yes! But, c'mon! Are any of you near climax?
# Posted on April 14th 2011 by yhaalhouse
Re: Brunelleschi's marvellous dome of The Basilica di Santa Maria
However in a strange way, I do like the analogy, it's artistic but not very practical, it's like trying to get an octopus to play a flute..
# Posted on April 14th 2011 by Theirlandais
Re: A penguin goes into a bar...
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/10853/comments#comment224048
# Posted on April 14th 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: Brunelleschi's marvellous dome of The Basilica di Santa Maria
Sadly no, yhaalhouse. In trying to untangle the analogy, I feel a little bit like the octopus in the joke Ben just linked to.
# Posted on April 14th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Brunelleschi's marvellous dome of The Basilica di Santa Maria
Better the octopus than the pipes...
# Posted on April 14th 2011 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Dome Process
"Brunelleschi's design contained two shells for the dome, an inner shell made of a lightweight material, and an outer shell of heavier wind-resistant materials. By creating two domes, Brunelleschi solved the problem of weight during construction because workers could sit atop the inner shell to build the outer shell of the dome. "
http://www.obscure.org/~perky/uofr/fall2002/ISYS203U/Duomo_Site/construction.html
# Posted on April 14th 2011 by Ben Steen
I'm drawing a blank on this analogy
"A lot of people play this music like it has some sort of internal solid scaffold...
"I completely disagree. The best way to build your performance is to not split the thing up like this. The best of this music is like ... ____ ... conceived and executed with no scaffold. Every last ____ is both free standing and integral."
# Posted on April 14th 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: Brunelleschi's marvellous dome of The Basilica di Santa Maria
Is this like Mad Libs? I vote "James Connolly" and "union man"
# Posted on April 14th 2011 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Brunelleschi's marvellous dome of The Basilica di Santa Maria
Good one Jon!
I'll go a few -
Sports - "A game winning set piece by Celtic FC" and "Player"
Comedy - "A Monty Python Movie" and "Sketch"
Vulgar -"Pam Anderson" and "Mammary Gland"
# Posted on April 14th 2011 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Brunelleschi's marvellous dome of The Basilica di Santa Maria
I'm not sure that last one is true. I think they may be executed with internal scaffolding.
# Posted on April 14th 2011 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Brunelleschi's marvellous dome of The Basilica di Santa Maria
Perhaps, but they are marvellous domes
# Posted on April 14th 2011 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Brunelleschi's marvellous dome of The Basilica di Santa Maria
"I'm not sure that last one is true. I think they may be executed with internal scaffolding"
Built to disguise a perfectly functioning and very clever cast iron machine.
# Posted on April 14th 2011 by Weejie
Re: Brunelleschi's marvellous dome of The Basilica di Santa Maria
"Good diddley music is not a veneered inner structure. Good diddley music does not require any form of support in its creation. All of the bits of good diddley music are not only integral parts of a self supporting structure, but are also the only parts required during the process of the creation."
Thank you for spelling it out for those of us who are a little thick. LOL
Let me see if I'm starting to get your drift....the things that are structure are things like rhythm, phrases, etc The veneer is phrasing (as opposed to phrases), ornaments, etc
Does that sound right?
And many players approach learning the music by learning the notes/rhythm/phrases and then "hanging" ornaments, bowing, phrasing and so on on it....like a formula of sorts with interchangeable pieces.
While other players learn the "tune" as a given - structure and veneer all one piece. (Though how do they learn to vary it later? Or do they then always play it the way they first learned it?)
I think the great players probably DO think holistically more than piece meal (though the may have learned the other way back in the day maybe - but now it's all one thing for them I'd guess)....though they are now playing the version they hear in their head as all one thing.....
Like when you hear all the "variations" in a tune on every pass - if you asked that player how does the tune goes they would say THAT'S how it goes - variations, rhythm, phrasing and all! Because it's all one thing to them.
That sound kind of right?
# Posted on April 14th 2011 by thejigisup
Re: Brunelleschi's marvellous dome of The Basilica di Santa Maria
Should good Diddley-domes be a bit too heavy for the walls directly below them? That's what happened to the Duomo. Thick bands of iron had to be placed carefully around the outside of the supporting wall, just under the dome, to keep said wall from collapsing outward. While this corrective measure results in something of an eyesore, can it be said to be technically the fault of the architect who added the dome? Can Diddley-domes really ever get away from some kind of iron support? Doubtful....
# Posted on April 15th 2011 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: Brunelleschi's marvellous dome of The Basilica di Santa Maria
" Thick bands of iron had to be placed carefully around the outside of the supporting wall, "
It's all that stamping of feet. They won't take a hint.......
# Posted on April 15th 2011 by Weejie
Re: Brunelleschi's marvellous dome of The Basilica di Santa Maria
The analogy to a structure seems inadequate. This music is alive, it even has a pulse!
# Posted on April 15th 2011 by leoj
Re: Brunelleschi's marvellous dome of The Basilica di Santa Maria
Of course it's inadequate; but we should not complain too strenuously. Llig-as-Brunelleschi is a welcome change from Llig-as-Savonarola.
# Posted on April 15th 2011 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: Brunelleschi's marvellous dome of The Basilica di Santa Maria
The dome needs walls for support. No walls & the dome drops to the ground. But does anyone want to talk about the walls?
# Posted on April 15th 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: Brunelleschi's marvellous dome of The Basilica di Santa Maria
The iron support -- guitars and bodhrans
# Posted on April 15th 2011 by Hup
Re: Brunelleschi's marvellous dome of The Basilica di Santa Maria
Good point, Hup. The dome has survived any number of natural disasters.
# Posted on April 15th 2011 by Ben Steen
The Bro
... & now for best supporting role ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZJ8Jxt9qrM&NR=1
# Posted on April 15th 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: Brunelleschi's marvellous dome of The Basilica di Santa Maria
The supporting structure we don't need is guitar and bodhrans? So we aren't talking about buildings, we are dragging out the old 'backers are useless' discussion for the thousandth time? I am so confused......
# Posted on April 15th 2011 by AlBrown
Re: Brunelleschi's marvellous dome of The Basilica di Santa Maria
It's all a bit of a laugh on session.org - lighten up Al. Where I usually
play, on bad days the thing would fall apart without someone
vigorously thrashing a guitar or bouzouki and a couple of people urgently
stamping their feet.
Buy 'Comb your Hair and Curl it' to hear session Nirvana - four "melody"
players weaving their own accompaniment and rhythm into the music
# Posted on April 15th 2011 by Hup
Re: Brunelleschi's marvellous dome of The Basilica di Santa Maria
LOL - no, it's only three players - but they sound like 8
http://www.thesession.org/recordings/display/3657
# Posted on April 15th 2011 by Hup
Re: Brunelleschi's marvellous dome of The Basilica di Santa Maria
Well at least someone gets it. thanks thejigisup.
And though he disagrees, I think Jusa Nutter Eejit gets it too. I'm of the opinion that if the musician creates a veneer over the tune, he's spoiling the tune by obscuring it. Unfortunately, very common in this music.
# Posted on April 15th 2011 by ...
Re: Brunelleschi's marvellous dome of The Basilica di Santa Maria
Do you play that way Lllig? I remember you saying once you
have a brother who plays jazz. That means you don't come to
Trad from a pure, naive background. You're not a simple man
of the land without education, playing on instinct. Although the
early jazz players often *were* like that, not uni-educated the
way they are these days.
# Posted on April 15th 2011 by Hup
Re: Brunelleschi's marvellous dome of The Basilica di Santa Maria
fortunately, it's my brother who is the educated one.
# Posted on April 15th 2011 by ...
Re: Brunelleschi's marvellous dome of The Basilica di Santa Maria
If you have a good session why do you need to explain it?
# Posted on April 15th 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: Brunelleschi's marvellous dome of The Basilica di Santa Maria
you don't
# Posted on April 15th 2011 by ...
Re: Brunelleschi's marvellous dome of The Basilica di Santa Maria
Can the last one out turn off the lights
# Posted on April 15th 2011 by Theirlandais
Re: Brunelleschi's marvellous dome of The Basilica di Santa Maria
It's last call already? Damn - I was enjoyingt this thread.
# Posted on April 15th 2011 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Brunelleschi's marvellous dome of The Basilica di Santa Maria
Don't turn out the lights until I explain to Hup that I don't need to lighten up, I had my tongue firmly in cheek when I wrote my last comment. Guess I should have included a smiley face. Good night, all!
# Posted on April 16th 2011 by AlBrown
Re: Brunelleschi's marvellous dome of The Basilica di Santa Maria
We should thank Filippo Brunelleschi for his early use of heavy metal in making Florence so marvelous.
# Posted on April 16th 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: Brunelleschi's marvellous dome of The Basilica di Santa Maria
Cheers Ben! Don't know about his contribution of heavy metal. I think someone else added that detail, sometime after his era. Along with designing that dome, he is credited with the invention of a reverse gear for heavy hoists enabling the oxen (or the men) walking on the hamster wheel to go in one direction all day, whether the hoist was lifting or lowering. For this inovation alone, he was light years out ahead of your average session player....
# Posted on April 16th 2011 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: Brunelleschi's marvellous dome of The Basilica di Santa Maria
The thread which never dies. Cheers, Atahualpa. Cheers, Filippo Brunelleschi; an artist & innovator in your time & for the ages. Cheers, Llig Leahcim!
I prefer a good metaphor to the sometimes bulky analogies. No offense. Here is my attempt ~ A good session is Brunelleschi's Sacrifice of Issac with everything needed to feel the passion being experienced. A lesser session is Ghiberti's bronze which is from the same sacrifice, yet it is little more than a pretty rendering with all that is expected of such a work.
# Posted on April 17th 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: Brunelleschi's marvellous dome of The Basilica di Santa Maria
Maybe that metaphor/analogy belies something more important about diddley sessions in general? I, not being trained in the appreciation of such reliefs, cannot tell them apart.
# Posted on April 18th 2011 by ...
Re: Brunelleschi's marvellous dome of The Basilica di Santa Maria
Sing hurrah for Morris, Pugin, Ruskin ...
# Posted on June 14th 2011 by Fiddlemad
Re: Brunelleschi's marvellous dome of The Basilica di Santa Maria
I wonder if Mr Leahcim's original comment was influenced by his Edingburgh heritage - particularly the lovely Morningside? All knickers, and nae fur coat. Or maybe I spend too much time by myself ...
# Posted on June 14th 2011 by Fiddlemad
Re: Brunelleschi's marvellous dome of The Basilica di Santa Maria
"All knickers, and nae fur coat. "
They must have changed their ways completely in Morningside.
# Posted on June 14th 2011 by Weejie
Re: Brunelleschi's marvellous dome of The Basilica di Santa Maria
Morningside is pure Victorian mock Georgian. But there's some really good Italian influenced stuff down in Leith (though Glasgow is even better for that kind of thing).
# Posted on June 14th 2011 by ...
Re: Brunelleschi's marvellous dome of The Basilica di Santa Maria
I think I need to get out more
# Posted on June 14th 2011 by Fiddlemad