Re: What is the difference between strathspey and schottische?
A strathspey has a very particular and recognizable rhythm and is both the (Scottish) dance and the music composed for it. It is not comparable to a (German) schottische. Having said that, I should add that I know nothing about the fleadh rules.
Re: What is the difference between strathspey and schottische?
From what I understand barndances, germans, and schottisches are all comparable (or possibly interchangeable and/or identical) and all are different from flings / strathspeys.
You could play a fling (comparable to a strathspey) at the CCE competitions. Check the rules, though, and read them. Don't rely on thesession.org or other discussion forums.
Re: What is the difference between strathspey and schottische?
Hehe "approved tunes". That you're "allowed" to play. How very Comhaltas...
I play a bunch of strathspeys and hear them occasionally in sessions, but never heard of a schottische until I saw a reference to it in a CCE paper a few months ago.
So anyone know why a German tune is approved, but a Scottish one isn't? Is it like a note of thanks for Ardnacrusha or something?
Re: What is the difference between strathspey and schottische?
Comhaltas rules are amusing, to say the least. For example, there's a rule that says "Competitors must play the tune at all times". Ha ha, I'd like to see them come on here and debate what is "tune", "variation", "ornamentation" or "articulation"?
Re: What is the difference between strathspey and schottische?
"Hehe "approved tunes". That you're "allowed" to play. How very Comhaltas..."
It's a competition. I may not agree with every choice, but the idea that there are approved tunes and/or allowed tunes makes complete sense. I sure wouldn't have any respect for an organization that was purporting to present a competition of irish music if they allowed polskas, weird noodly 11/8 "tunes", jazz standards, or so on... One can argue all one wants about where the line is drawn, but the fact that there should be one seems inherently necessary.
As far as the oft-repeated (by Michael) rule about following the tune, if I'm not mistaken this is specifically a rule relating to duos and trios, and is intended to make it clear that none of the musicians should play harmonies, accompaniment (ie chords) or counter-melodies. I can only imagine that Mr. Gill simply didn't read the rules all that well, because it's perfectly clear to me what is meant.
Re: What is the difference between strathspey and schottische?
Nico, I'm well aware that the "tune at all times" rule is related to duos and trios. Pray tell me, the precise defining of the difference between variation and counter-melody?
Re: What is the difference between strathspey and schottische?
" Pray tell me, the precise defining of the difference between variation and counter-melody?"
Like all things artistic this would be subjective. However, if the two instruments are playing different notes/melody for a period of time: harmony. How long that period can be and still be acceptably not harmony is up to the judge. From what I've seen there is a premium put on duos/trios where the musicians play tightly together. If the instruments are not playing the same variations they will generally get judged accordingly. Do try to remember that there is a whole competition devoted to musical groups where harmony, countermelodies, arrangements of tunes, and so on is not inly encouraged, but is expected.
Like I said at the beginning of my previous post, I may not agree with all the choices, but it's a competition (and an organization). The fact that there needs to be rules follows inherently from this.
Re: What is the difference between strathspey and schottische?
Well, the list of tunes is as follows:
Air (slow or lively), Reel, Polka, Hornpipe, March, Jig (double, single, slip), Slide, Set Dance, Mazurka, Planxty, Fling, Barn Dance, Schottische, Clan March.
I just have this strathspey I really would like to play, and I was wondering if it could possibly be passed as something else.
Re: What is the difference between strathspey and schottische?
Like all things artistic, it cannot be objectively measured. The difference between variation and counter-melody is only that of duration, and that duration is not fixed, but left to the whim of the particular judge.
Re: What is the difference between strathspey and schottische?
Which makes it no different than any other fleadh competition, as well as gymnastics, dressage, diving, figure skating, and a host of other things all contingent on subjective criteria. Once all the competitors are all pretty good and no one makes an obvious cock up, it is all at the whim of the particular judge.
Re: What is the difference between strathspey and schottische?
If you just want to confuse the judge, play the jig - "The Road To Reel".
A strathspey is Scottish so maybe they don't want you playing something Scottish but then again...
Flings are frowned upon...supposed to be faithful
Barns can't dance
How can you Dance and Set at the same time? It's Ready Set Go.
Slide might work since Baseball is back. Just don't go all Electric.
Schottische is what that guy keeps in his flask.
And can you even say Clan March in this day and age?
Re: What is the difference between strathspey and schottische?
I have no problem with whether something is "better" or not being at the whim of the judge in an "art" competition. That's the definition of an art competition, because we know that art cannot be objectively measured.
But what's bonkers with this rule is that it's states a hard fast fact. The tune MUST be played at all times. Yet it's impossible to define "tune". It's silly
Re: What is the difference between strathspey and schottische?
I wasn't really advocating playing Jazz or Gyspy music in a trad competition (a bit of common sense should prevail after all), but I'd still be interested to know why a tune of German origin is allowed, while a tune of Scottish origin is not.
Re: What is the difference between strathspey and schottische?
If you played the original strathspey version of common Irish reels such as the Musical Priest or the Humours of Tulla or Farewell to Erin, could you get it past?
From my very short career competing in fleadhs, I learned you can't play a jig and a slip jig. Which made me wonder if one can play a jig and a hop jig and squeak it by, as the latter doesn't sound "jiggy" and would the judges pick up on it?
What the jig and slip jig have in common is that they're multiples of three, over eight. I'm not music theory savvy enough to say this more intelligently, but you know what I mean. ;) So by that logic, you shouldn't be able to play reels and barndances, polkas, flings, etc., as they're all in four. But I think you are allowed to do that, which really just makes the Comhaltas rules arbitrary and daft.
Re: What is the difference between strathspey and schottische?
The Scottish schottische is different from the Continental ones, it's a fast twirling couple dance. I would guess that CCE has something like the Scottish one in (what passes for its) mind.
Schottische tunes are usually faster and simpler than strathspeys, without the triplet patterns. The North Bridge of Edinburgh wouldn't be appropriate, as it's too slow and heavy: something like Major Molle, The Keel Row or Kafoozalum would be ok.
Re: What is the difference between strathspey and schottische?
"But what's bonkers with this rule is that it's states a hard fast fact. The tune MUST be played at all times. Yet it's impossible to define "tune". It's silly"
Actually, it is possible to define what a tune is, it's just cumbersome, and many might disagree on some of the points of detail. Yet, any decent irish musician is going to be able to say when two people playing as a duo have stopped playing together. The short definition, like the famous line about pornography, is "I know it when I hear it."
Of course the beauty of just saying "must play the tune" is that it encompasses all the myriad definitions of tune. What would be understood if you listen to duets/trios, is that the judges generally award higher points to those who play together. Ie play the (same) tune.
I'll give you an example, and hopefully put to rest your ridiculous objection to the rule: I have two versions of the Holly Bush, one that goes high in the second part, and one that doesn't. If I were to play this reel in a duet for the competition and I played the low version, and my duet partner played the high version, then we'd get less points. We might even get substantially less points or disqualified if the judge decided that the two versions were far enough apart that it sounds like harmony, instead of two people playing the same tune.
But really, as I said before, this rule is there basically so you don't get some duo coming in with a fiddle player playing the melody and a guitar player playing chords, or melody players doing something completely different. It's there to warn potential competitors of what to expect.
Re: What is the difference between strathspey and schottische?
@Silverspear: I think the choice of which tunes to include is somewhat arbitrary. I for one don't understand why "jigs" includes slip, double and single, but slides are separate. Nonetheless, there are rules, whether we agree with them or not... so don't play a waltz.
Re: What is the difference between strathspey and schottische?
At all the ceilidhs (Scottish) I've been to and played at, strathspeys were played for the Highland Scottische, although this might not be a real Scottische.
Re: What is the difference between strathspey and schottische?
Schottische tunes are a *kind* of strathspey - a fast and simple one. Not all strathspeys would be usable - the more complex ones (something like Mrs Grant of Laggan) can't be played fast enough.
So it would help if the original poster said which one he/she had in mind.
Re: What is the difference between strathspey and schottische?
Jack, I don't know much about strathspeys, but isn't the "snap" rhythm an essential characteristic? And I don't think Irish scottishes have that, do they?
Re: What is the difference between strathspey and schottische?
Mix
acocrding to fleadh rules, slow airs are a required category, but they have to be something from the 'recognized' group (O'neills, Roche collections) of airs. No slowed reels, or O'Carolans.
I did one that was obscure and had to get a ruling in advance.
Re: What is the difference between strathspey and schottische?
Even if both are in 3, the difference between a waltz and a slow air is immediately apparent. If you can dance to it, it is a waltz, if you can't dance to it, it is an air.
Re: What is the difference between strathspey and schottische?
I believe that the fleadh competition rules have been relaxed over the pass few years. They now let people who play soccer and other foreign games enter
Re: What is the difference between strathspey and schottische?
schottische are usually played for Scottish ceilidh to 2/4 tunes at polka speed. A couples dance, play what you want, as many times as you want, till they drop. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3QWZF1mGsfU
Strathspeys are more likely to be played at a RSCDS gig, to 4/4, heavily dotted, scottish-snapped strathspey tunes (often the set tune for the dance), played on the slow side to match the dance.
Usually for 4 couples, you must play the exact number of bars and the exact number of tunes requested for the dance.
The steps are a lot of skip and drag steps. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrzxO_MUVW0
What is the difference between strathspey and schottische?
What is the difference between strathspey and schottische?
And could I play a strathspey at the fleadh as a schottische, since strathspey is not on the list of approved tunes?
# Posted on March 31st 2011 by Red Crow
Re: What is the difference between strathspey and schottische?
A schottische is a German dance. Both the dance and the tunes are much closer to a polka than to a strathspey.
But I've no idea what you can and can't do in competitions.
# Posted on March 31st 2011 by skreech
Re: What is the difference between strathspey and schottische?
A strathspey has a very particular and recognizable rhythm and is both the (Scottish) dance and the music composed for it. It is not comparable to a (German) schottische. Having said that, I should add that I know nothing about the fleadh rules.
# Posted on March 31st 2011 by gam
Re: What is the difference between strathspey and schottische?
From what I understand barndances, germans, and schottisches are all comparable (or possibly interchangeable and/or identical) and all are different from flings / strathspeys.
You could play a fling (comparable to a strathspey) at the CCE competitions. Check the rules, though, and read them. Don't rely on thesession.org or other discussion forums.
# Posted on March 31st 2011 by Nico
Re: What is the difference between strathspey and schottische?
Hehe "approved tunes". That you're "allowed" to play. How very Comhaltas...
I play a bunch of strathspeys and hear them occasionally in sessions, but never heard of a schottische until I saw a reference to it in a CCE paper a few months ago.
So anyone know why a German tune is approved, but a Scottish one isn't? Is it like a note of thanks for Ardnacrusha or something?
# Posted on March 31st 2011 by tradshark
Re: What is the difference between strathspey and schottische?
Comhaltas rules are amusing, to say the least. For example, there's a rule that says "Competitors must play the tune at all times". Ha ha, I'd like to see them come on here and debate what is "tune", "variation", "ornamentation" or "articulation"?
# Posted on March 31st 2011 by ...
Re: What is the difference between strathspey and schottische?
"Hehe "approved tunes". That you're "allowed" to play. How very Comhaltas..."
It's a competition. I may not agree with every choice, but the idea that there are approved tunes and/or allowed tunes makes complete sense. I sure wouldn't have any respect for an organization that was purporting to present a competition of irish music if they allowed polskas, weird noodly 11/8 "tunes", jazz standards, or so on... One can argue all one wants about where the line is drawn, but the fact that there should be one seems inherently necessary.
As far as the oft-repeated (by Michael) rule about following the tune, if I'm not mistaken this is specifically a rule relating to duos and trios, and is intended to make it clear that none of the musicians should play harmonies, accompaniment (ie chords) or counter-melodies. I can only imagine that Mr. Gill simply didn't read the rules all that well, because it's perfectly clear to me what is meant.
# Posted on March 31st 2011 by Nico
Re: What is the difference between strathspey and schottische?
Nico, I'm well aware that the "tune at all times" rule is related to duos and trios. Pray tell me, the precise defining of the difference between variation and counter-melody?
# Posted on March 31st 2011 by ...
Re: What is the difference between strathspey and schottische?
Can you play Highlands?
# Posted on March 31st 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: What is the difference between strathspey and schottische?
" Pray tell me, the precise defining of the difference between variation and counter-melody?"
Like all things artistic this would be subjective. However, if the two instruments are playing different notes/melody for a period of time: harmony. How long that period can be and still be acceptably not harmony is up to the judge. From what I've seen there is a premium put on duos/trios where the musicians play tightly together. If the instruments are not playing the same variations they will generally get judged accordingly. Do try to remember that there is a whole competition devoted to musical groups where harmony, countermelodies, arrangements of tunes, and so on is not inly encouraged, but is expected.
Like I said at the beginning of my previous post, I may not agree with all the choices, but it's a competition (and an organization). The fact that there needs to be rules follows inherently from this.
# Posted on March 31st 2011 by Nico
Re: What is the difference between strathspey and schottische?
Well, the list of tunes is as follows:
Air (slow or lively), Reel, Polka, Hornpipe, March, Jig (double, single, slip), Slide, Set Dance, Mazurka, Planxty, Fling, Barn Dance, Schottische, Clan March.
I just have this strathspey I really would like to play, and I was wondering if it could possibly be passed as something else.
# Posted on March 31st 2011 by Red Crow
Re: What is the difference between strathspey and schottische?
Like all things artistic, it cannot be objectively measured. The difference between variation and counter-melody is only that of duration, and that duration is not fixed, but left to the whim of the particular judge.
# Posted on April 1st 2011 by ...
Re: What is the difference between strathspey and schottische?
Which makes it no different than any other fleadh competition, as well as gymnastics, dressage, diving, figure skating, and a host of other things all contingent on subjective criteria. Once all the competitors are all pretty good and no one makes an obvious cock up, it is all at the whim of the particular judge.
# Posted on April 1st 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: What is the difference between strathspey and schottische?
If you just want to confuse the judge, play the jig - "The Road To Reel".
A strathspey is Scottish so maybe they don't want you playing something Scottish but then again...
Flings are frowned upon...supposed to be faithful
Barns can't dance
How can you Dance and Set at the same time? It's Ready Set Go.
Slide might work since Baseball is back. Just don't go all Electric.
Schottische is what that guy keeps in his flask.
And can you even say Clan March in this day and age?
# Posted on April 1st 2011 by MorganYYZ
Re: What is the difference between strathspey and schottische?
I have no problem with whether something is "better" or not being at the whim of the judge in an "art" competition. That's the definition of an art competition, because we know that art cannot be objectively measured.
But what's bonkers with this rule is that it's states a hard fast fact. The tune MUST be played at all times. Yet it's impossible to define "tune". It's silly
# Posted on April 1st 2011 by ...
Re: What is the difference between strathspey and schottische?
What Strathspey is it? If you name the actual tune I am sure someone can tell you if you can squeak it in under one of the other categories or not.
# Posted on April 1st 2011 by Red Menace
Re: What is the difference between strathspey and schottische?
I wasn't really advocating playing Jazz or Gyspy music in a trad competition (a bit of common sense should prevail after all), but I'd still be interested to know why a tune of German origin is allowed, while a tune of Scottish origin is not.
# Posted on April 1st 2011 by tradshark
Re: What is the difference between strathspey and schottische?
If you played the original strathspey version of common Irish reels such as the Musical Priest or the Humours of Tulla or Farewell to Erin, could you get it past?
From my very short career competing in fleadhs, I learned you can't play a jig and a slip jig. Which made me wonder if one can play a jig and a hop jig and squeak it by, as the latter doesn't sound "jiggy" and would the judges pick up on it?
What the jig and slip jig have in common is that they're multiples of three, over eight. I'm not music theory savvy enough to say this more intelligently, but you know what I mean. ;) So by that logic, you shouldn't be able to play reels and barndances, polkas, flings, etc., as they're all in four. But I think you are allowed to do that, which really just makes the Comhaltas rules arbitrary and daft.
# Posted on April 1st 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: What is the difference between strathspey and schottische?
The Scottish schottische is different from the Continental ones, it's a fast twirling couple dance. I would guess that CCE has something like the Scottish one in (what passes for its) mind.
Schottische tunes are usually faster and simpler than strathspeys, without the triplet patterns. The North Bridge of Edinburgh wouldn't be appropriate, as it's too slow and heavy: something like Major Molle, The Keel Row or Kafoozalum would be ok.
# Posted on April 1st 2011 by Jack Campin
Re: What is the difference between strathspey and schottische?
"But what's bonkers with this rule is that it's states a hard fast fact. The tune MUST be played at all times. Yet it's impossible to define "tune". It's silly"
Actually, it is possible to define what a tune is, it's just cumbersome, and many might disagree on some of the points of detail. Yet, any decent irish musician is going to be able to say when two people playing as a duo have stopped playing together. The short definition, like the famous line about pornography, is "I know it when I hear it."
Of course the beauty of just saying "must play the tune" is that it encompasses all the myriad definitions of tune. What would be understood if you listen to duets/trios, is that the judges generally award higher points to those who play together. Ie play the (same) tune.
I'll give you an example, and hopefully put to rest your ridiculous objection to the rule: I have two versions of the Holly Bush, one that goes high in the second part, and one that doesn't. If I were to play this reel in a duet for the competition and I played the low version, and my duet partner played the high version, then we'd get less points. We might even get substantially less points or disqualified if the judge decided that the two versions were far enough apart that it sounds like harmony, instead of two people playing the same tune.
But really, as I said before, this rule is there basically so you don't get some duo coming in with a fiddle player playing the melody and a guitar player playing chords, or melody players doing something completely different. It's there to warn potential competitors of what to expect.
# Posted on April 1st 2011 by Nico
Re: What is the difference between strathspey and schottische?
@Silverspear: I think the choice of which tunes to include is somewhat arbitrary. I for one don't understand why "jigs" includes slip, double and single, but slides are separate. Nonetheless, there are rules, whether we agree with them or not... so don't play a waltz.
# Posted on April 1st 2011 by Nico
Re: What is the difference between strathspey and schottische?
Nico " ... so don't play a waltz"
But "slow airs" are allowed, are they not?
So what 's the position if your chosen "slow air" happens to be in 3/4 time?
# Posted on April 1st 2011 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: What is the difference between strathspey and schottische?
At all the ceilidhs (Scottish) I've been to and played at, strathspeys were played for the Highland Scottische, although this might not be a real Scottische.
# Posted on April 1st 2011 by Alasdair Paul
Re: What is the difference between strathspey and schottische?
Schottische tunes are a *kind* of strathspey - a fast and simple one. Not all strathspeys would be usable - the more complex ones (something like Mrs Grant of Laggan) can't be played fast enough.
So it would help if the original poster said which one he/she had in mind.
# Posted on April 1st 2011 by Jack Campin
Re: What is the difference between strathspey and schottische?
" Pray tell me, the precise defining of the difference between variation and counter-melody?"
'Like all things artistic this would be subjective'
A lot of very similar distinctions in the rules aren't subjective. The distinction between a jig and a reel for example.
Judging from what I've read here, the rule in question is simply poorly drafted.
To the original questioner: if your aim is to do well in the competition then why take the risk?
# Posted on April 1st 2011 by Bernie 29
Re: What is the difference between strathspey and schottische?
Jack, I don't know much about strathspeys, but isn't the "snap" rhythm an essential characteristic? And I don't think Irish scottishes have that, do they?
# Posted on April 1st 2011 by Bernie 29
Re: What is the difference between strathspey and schottische?
Mix
acocrding to fleadh rules, slow airs are a required category, but they have to be something from the 'recognized' group (O'neills, Roche collections) of airs. No slowed reels, or O'Carolans.
I did one that was obscure and had to get a ruling in advance.
# Posted on April 1st 2011 by zippydw
Re: What is the difference between strathspey and schottische?
Even if both are in 3, the difference between a waltz and a slow air is immediately apparent. If you can dance to it, it is a waltz, if you can't dance to it, it is an air.
# Posted on April 1st 2011 by AlBrown
Re: What is the difference between strathspey and schottische?
I believe that the fleadh competition rules have been relaxed over the pass few years. They now let people who play soccer and other foreign games enter
# Posted on April 2nd 2011 by Free Reed
Re: What is the difference between strathspey and schottische?
schottische are usually played for Scottish ceilidh to 2/4 tunes at polka speed. A couples dance, play what you want, as many times as you want, till they drop.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3QWZF1mGsfU
Strathspeys are more likely to be played at a RSCDS gig, to 4/4, heavily dotted, scottish-snapped strathspey tunes (often the set tune for the dance), played on the slow side to match the dance.
Usually for 4 couples, you must play the exact number of bars and the exact number of tunes requested for the dance.
The steps are a lot of skip and drag steps.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrzxO_MUVW0
# Posted on April 5th 2011 by geoffwright