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Would like suggestions of guitar/backing folks to listen for....
Would like suggestions of guitar/backing folks to listen for....
I am a guitar beginner and I've recently heard several conversations about what is appropriate and not in the music (from a backing perspective) and I'm wondering if you guys can help me make a list of folks to listen to that might be helpful. Who is doing it "right" in your opinion (and why - what should I listen for) and who is doing it "wrong" or "not quite in the tradition"?
Guitar backers are most helpful but also bouzouki or piano might be appropriate....so can you guys give me your favorites and not so favorites?
I didn't find another thread like this when searching but if there is one, I'd appreciate a pointer to it!
Re: Would like suggestions of guitar/backing folks to listen for....
That is a very broad question. There are so many different styles of accompaniment and they are all equally valid. Many people prefer a stripped-back, minimalist style with a few partial chords and flashes of melody. Others like a more full-on style that sits right along side the melody instrument. It is all a matter of personal taste.
The most important thing to watch is the right hand rhythm (or left hand I suppose if you are cack-handed!). That is more important than the chords being played. Quite often a single drone chord will do for large sections of a tune but it is the rhythm of the accompanist that makes it.
Some well known and well respected guitar accompanists would include:
Tim Edey
John Doyle
Dennis Cahill
Kris Drever
Anna Massie
Steve Cooney
Jim Murray
Ian Carr
Donough Hennessy
Ross Martin
Seamie O'Dowd
Peerie Willie Johnson
The list can go on and on and on (and will). Have a wee look around youtube and see what you like and go from there.
Re: Would like suggestions of guitar/backing folks to listen for....
If it's good rhythm yer after, ya could do worse than have a listen to Arty "metronome" McGlynn on numerous recordings with Matt Molloy, James Kelly etc...
Also, John Blake does a mighty job providing accompaniment on the Kane sisters album (in DADGAD to the best of my knowledge).
The list, for better or worse, is endless...
Re: Would like suggestions of guitar/backing folks to listen for....
There are so many different styles of guitar accompaniment for irish music and so many different opinions on who plays it best that you could end up being more confused after you get the answers than before you asked the question. Try and listen to as many styles as you can and go for the one or ones that appeal to you. Start off simply try some things yourself and very soon you will have your own stamp on it. Hope this helps and the best of luck!
Re: Would like suggestions of guitar/backing folks to listen for....
Donal Clancy knows the tunes (that is, he actually plays the melodies on guitar and zouk), and so that informs his approach to accompaniment. Of all the strummers, for me, Donal is one of the best at knowing how to blend with the melody instruments.
Re: Would like suggestions of guitar/backing folks to listen for....
I understand the need to find someone you like but I guess another question would be - are some more "in the tradition" than others? (I should add that I live in the States.)
I guess I've heard a comment or two about accompanists being "too american" or using the wrong rhythms. I don't mean a dabbler who is obviously mucking it up....we're talking folks who know the music well and have been playing it for a while and sound, to my inexperienced ears, just fine. But then someone will come along and say "not Irish enough" or some such. So I'm just wondering, is it truly a matter of taste or is there something a bit more subtle that they are not getting (and me with my newbie guitar ears doesn't hear yet).....
Maybe I just need to really listen to the folks you all mentioned and then I'll start to hear the difference....or maybe there's not one and it's all just one guy's style versus another.....
???
Re: Would like suggestions of guitar/backing folks to listen for....
Randal Bays is another musician who knows the tunes, playing fiddle and guitar. His work on Martin Hayes' first album is really worth listening to. (Mr Hayes certainly has a way of picking out, how does yaalhouse phrase it -- six-string devil botherers ?) Dáithí Sproule belongs on the list of great guitarists, too.
Re: Would like suggestions of guitar/backing folks to listen for....
This is a big question and we'd love to help. Your last paragraph said it best if you change the or for an and. Listen closely to these players and others, do they drive the rhythm giving it a great oomph, do they hold back and let the melody breath and stand up on it's own, do they weave a fine filigree of harmony around the tune or do they do all three,none of these or something else entirely. We could give you our favourites whom we think enhance the backing and someone else will disagree entirely. You will be playing it so listen to what you think is nice and use it and move on as if picking apples in an orchard. Eventually your basket will be full of the finest fruit. We hope this advice works for you. If not you can disgard it as a bad apple.
Re: Would like suggestions of guitar/backing folks to listen for....
I don't think you should be listening to guitar backers at all and certainly not for inspiration. That approach is like being interested in marine biology and watching Finding Nemo. Or liking The Beatles and listening to Oasis. Or liking a good steak and eating at Macdonald's. Or being interested in the news and reading The Sun. Or liking wildlife and going to the Zoo.
The tune is king. All your inspiration should come from the tunes, the players of the tunes, the turns in the tunes, the rhythm of the tunes.
Re: Would like suggestions of guitar/backing folks to listen for....
There is not one particularly traditional style on the guitar in the same way as there is not one style of fiddle playing or box playing. There are lots of different styles and preferences. As long as you are accompanying well and as long as you and those you are playing with like it then that is the most important thing. In fact, given the relatively short time that there has been guitar accompaniment in traditional music (in comparison to say, the fiddle) then it is even more the case that it is down to personal taste.
You keep on talking about an Irish style. I should point out that some of the folk on my list were Scottish. That does not necessarily matter and you can learn plenty from all of them. Someone like Peerie Willie though had a particular style of his own that has become strongly identified with Shetland.
Re: Would like suggestions of guitar/backing folks to listen for....
...yer profile says you're a fiddler. Best hock the guitar, pocket the cash and keep fiddlin'. Kinda like trading in a Cadillac for a Pinto this guitar business....
Re: Would like suggestions of guitar/backing folks to listen for....
No Cause gave a great list, and now that Will has mentioned Donal Clancy, everyone I would have listed has shown up!
Don't listen just to the accompanist. Don't listen just to the tune. Listen to the partnership between the two. That is where you either hear the magic or you don't...
Re: Would like suggestions of guitar/backing folks to listen for....
Thanks for the list guys!
And the words of, um, wisdom. LOL
Shanty - no worries - the fiddle is still/always my first love - but the guitar has been a welcome diversion and is letting me learn about the music from a whole other dimension (as is the flute I'm trying to learn!)....I just need a bigger garage apparently to house all my cars!
Re: Would like suggestions of guitar/backing folks to listen for....
llig is right when he says the tune is king, but I'd say you already know that. So with that in mind I'd tender the following:
Listen to every guitarist you come across, the good the bad and the indifferent, as all have a lesson for the aspirant axe man/woman (axe person) even if the lesson is "mental note to self: don't ever play this like that like that" there's value in it all and the more lessons you learn from others the better. Also don't limit your guitar listening to just trad when seeking inspiration. There are a fair few one trick pony backers out there. A good backer, IMO, needs to be able to speak in many voices to articulate all the hues and nuances that make good subtle backing good, tailored to each and every situation or combination. Develop your own stamp by drawing on as many sources as possible.
NCFA; Where's Arty or Cocky Mark Clements in that list? Or big Tony for that matter?
Not ITM but McManus's treatment of the backing on "return to kintail" is undoubtedly right there and you can hear the big man digging deep into his bag of tricks to voice and articulate subtle hues and subtitles, not rockin roll but I like it, here:
Re: Would like suggestions of guitar/backing folks to listen for....
"But Tony MacManus doesn't really "back" the fiddle on that record, he plays "with" it. Big difference.", llig
That guy says tomatos, this one says tomAtos and you've been in Edinburgh long enough to know there are people who'll say, tamatties, they all describe the same fruit!
I'd say we're on the same page regarding backing/playing with. We're just using different terminology to articulate the same thing.
Interestingly the only players I'll whip out the guitar for are the ones who'll let me play "with them", rather than the ones who'll impose conditions, life's too short for that, it stifles creativity in music making. If people don't like what I do (that should really now be "did", but this is likely just be a temporary state of affairs as I do love playing guitar) then they don't have to play with me. I'll never impose myself on anyone in that regard.
If you need me to keep time your asking the wrong trousers! Because as you always assert it's the tunes that have the pulse and therefore the time beats out from the tune, "the tune is King!". So when I play "with" people I describe it as providing accompaniment and " I " assume backing to be the same thing, others may not get it, sound like you do. So while it may transpire that "you" may not like my way round things, I'd like to think if we were sat, just the two of us, we'd both be there with the attitude that we were playing together.
For years I liked to think Tony M wasn't a backer/player with're as his main focus was the tunes, but the man is a genius accompanist/backer/player with're to boot and deserves to be on that list more than a few I could mention.
Any want to be guitar player shouldn't discount Tony's playing on "return from Kintail" it's quality, especially his accompaniment, it's not driving jigs and reels or lightning polka backing, it's much much more.
Re: Would like suggestions of guitar/backing folks to listen for....
Solidmahog - thanks for the link and the interesting discussion....I really like that point of view - playing along with rather than "backing" - I will need to mull that over more when I'm listening....
My list is getting bigger of good folks to listen to! Thanks everyone!
Re: Would like suggestions of guitar/backing folks to listen for....
All those mentioned above, and also grab a copy of Tommy Peoples album The Quiet Glen with Alph Duggan on guitar. Inspiring stuff from both players. Alph's playing is very tasteful and not overbearing, blending beautifully with the fiddle. You would do well to take note of that.
Re: Would like suggestions of guitar/backing folks to listen for....
I can't think of anyone to add to the list since I think others have pretty well covered the very best guitarists, but just wanted to say that I completely, absolutely disagree with llig leahcim and hope that you don't take his advice! Nobody would tell you not to listen to fiddle players if you were just starting to learn fiddle, so there's no reason this should be any different.
(And I mean no disrespect to you, Ilig Ieahcim, I just, well...strongly disagree!)
I think Solidmahog says it best about listening to every guitarist you come across, good or bad. If you already understand the music and the tunes, then the only way you're going to learn about guitar technique, chord voicings, the distinct ways that the guitar can be played and how it relates to other instruments, is by listening to guitar players. Whether they're playing the role of the strict backer, playing solo or on some middle ground, you should give them all a good listen (just as intently as you would listen to any great fiddler or piper) and then decide from there which you like best and would most like to emulate. And yeah, you'll probably come across someone who doesn't think that particular style of guitar-playing is 'appropriate' or traditional enough, but as long as you have people to play with who you like and respect and who like and respect you back, then who cares about those nay-sayers?
You can't please everyone, especially when you're talking about guitar in Irish music
Re: Would like suggestions of guitar/backing folks to listen for....
Strawberries, I don't think you understand what I was saying. Diddley music is complete in itself. The tunes. That's it.
Now, if you want to strum to it that's fine of course, what ever floats you and your accommodating tune playing pals' boat.
The point is, if you want to strum to it with respect for what it is, then all your inspiration should come from the completeness of the music that is the tunes, the players of the tunes, the turns in the tunes, the rhythm of the tunes.
To take inspiration from other strummers is like going to a football match and standing facing the crowd with your back to the play and cheering when the crowd cheers.
If you still "absolutely disagree" with this, then I'm either right, and you don't understand what I'm saying, or, you don't understand or appreciate diddley music for what it is.
Re: Would like suggestions of guitar/backing folks to listen for....
Quite a lot of people "don't understand or appreciate diddley music for what it is," as I am sure you know yourself. I've had several conversations with people who are peripheral participants in the session scene,ranging from the sig. other of a musician to the classic "six-string devil" botherer who hangs about the fringes of sessions, about the nature of accompaniment in Irish trad. They complain that most Irish music lacks a "bottom end." There's too much "top end," too much melody and higher notes and not enough bass to feel balanced. I respond with more or less what Michael has said. Then the conversation grinds to a standstill.
Re: Would like suggestions of guitar/backing folks to listen for....
It is a good analogy. Backers; as you listen to the music, also look for visual clues of general unease, frustration and hostility from the people playing the melody. A good sign as to how your contribution with your bodhran, guitar, or say... the evening long practice of nothing more than loud upbeat-downbeat chords on a PA, is when melody players begin to move away from your general din. You should be cautious when you begin to see melody players put down their instruments mid-tune, to heft empty pint glasses, as the look menacingly in your direction. If in between tunes, the melody players are all huddled together on the other side of the circle, murmuring and giving you angry looks, it's time for you to skedaddle.
Re: Would like suggestions of guitar/backing folks to listen for....
I think the OP is someone who gets the gist of the tunes, and as stated, is looking for pointers for broadening their backing abilities by asking for suggestions for further listening.
In this regard it's other backers backing familiar tunes that I'd recommend listening too, not tunes in isolation. Once you've got a handle on a accompaniment for this or that tune, listening to how others approach the same is a good call really, thats what the OP is asking! Simple.
Re: Would like suggestions of guitar/backing folks to listen for....
Ilig Ieahcim, I do understand what you're saying, and I agree that the music is complete in itself. As awesome as I think the guitar is, I know that no one needs additional chords and rhythm. And yes, when you're playing with someone, you should always be deferring to the melody and trying to back in such a way that is sensitive to the tune, the player, and not stomping all over everything, and certainly not copy-pasting some idea you learned from another guitarist's backing of different tune into the one at hand. But my point is, thejigisup already plays Irish music and is only now starting on guitar. If it were the other way around, I'd agree with you in saying that, at least for a while, one is best off not listening to other backers and focusing strictly on the tunes. But I feel that there's no need to reinvent the wheel. There are many, many guitar players who play with all their inspiration coming from 'the players of the tunes, the turns in the tunes, the rhythm of the tunes', and so I think there's nothing wrong with figuring out what they do in order to have a better understanding of how the guitar works and the myriad possibilities in playing it, while of course staying very sensitive to the tune itself and the musicians who you play with.
Does that make sense? I'm not advocating a guitar-centric approach, just a balanced one. And I don't think I misunderstand you, Ilig Ieachcim, I just think we're on different wavelengths.
To thejigisup: sorry for the soapbox! A lot of good advice has been given and I hope you have fun learning to play guitar and exploring music from a new perspective.
Re: Would like suggestions of guitar/backing folks to listen for....
So, what works for the "many guitar players who play with all their inspiration coming from tunes" won't work for thejigisup?
You don't advise him to do what they do, you advise him to take his inspiration from someone who took their inspiration from the tunes.
Those players invented their ways of playing the guitar with the tunes, so now that's been done, "there's no need" for thejigisup to "reinvent" it. Just copy them.
What you are advocating is a tradition of guitar strumming. And the awful pain of that is that in reallity, that is what is actually begining to happen. A tradition of dadgad strummy copycats. A plague of second hand, third hand, forth hand inspiration. And your advice is to sustain this anathema.
It drains the colour from the music, and irons flat the beauty of its textures. It slices away dynamics and squashes freedom. It makes it taste of nothing and smell of ubiquity. It makes it all sound the same.
So don't be a part of that Mr jigisup. Be inspired by the tunes, just as all the great guitar players are. Don't be inspired by guitar players.
Re: Would like suggestions of guitar/backing folks to listen for....
Oy, I've never felt so misunderstood or misinterpreted! I'll chalk this one up to my inarticulateness and assume that I'm better off not starting long-distance debates in the future.
But juuuust to clarify:
"Those players invented their ways of playing the guitar with the tunes, so now that's been done, "there's no need" for thejigisup to "reinvent" it. Just copy them."
Well, if we're talking about learning a new instrument, then yes, absolutely. Doesn't everyone learn at first by copying others? Isn't the usual process to emulate others, master your instrument, then move on and do something new? I never meant to imply that one should stop there. In my experience it's usually easier to invent something new if you can do at least some of what's already been done. The ultimate inspiration comes from the tunes, indisputably. But in order to get to a place where you can be directly inspired by the tunes, it helps to have learned the techniques first, and the best place to learn how to play an instrument, from a purely technical standpoint, is from players of the same instrument.
"What you are advocating is a tradition of guitar strumming. And the awful pain of that is that in reallity, that is what is actually begining to happen."
No, I'm hardly saying that. I'm of the opinion that the guitar's role in Irish music is becoming far more refined, tasteful, versatile and virtuosic over time, and part of the reason that's the case is because no one has to start from scratch - they've been able to learn from older guitarists as well as from the tunes and melody players. There are so many great players to listen to, some with very different approaches to accompaniment. Why exist in a vacuum? I think it's extremely helpful to hear what the guitar is capable of in the hands of people like Tony McManus or John Doyle. Even if you don't stick to their styles, it can give you ideas about new places to take your own playing.
But that's just my lowly guitarist opinion, after all!
Re: Would like suggestions of guitar/backing folks to listen for....
I don't think I'm misrepresenting you, I'm trying to quote you as directly as I can.
Yes, it's "easier" to copy. But that doesn't mean it's right.
Your "ultimate inspiration" is your admission of my accusation of the "plague of second hand inspiration".
My accusation is that "you are advocating a tradition of guitar strumming". And you deny this with, "No, I'm hardly saying that". And yet you say that guitarists are, "able to learn from older guitarists as well as from the tunes and melody players".
The traditional music I play, diddley music, is traditional music because it is handed down. We learn to play the tunes from other tune players. We tune players continue a tradition of tune playing. We don't, as Ben points out, exist in a vacuum. And you agree that this music is "complete". So my premise is straight forward, if a guitar strummer wants to play this traditional music, then they must learn from the tunes and from tune players.
But your position is of a guitar player learning "from older guitarists as well as from the tunes and melody players". This directly champions the incorporation of the guitar within the tradition.
Re: Would like suggestions of guitar/backing folks to listen for....
I hope I'm not getting in the middle of an intense skirmish here...but...I see nothing wrong with telling the guy to listen to guitar players' backing if he already clearly plays a melody instrument, and also wants to learn...guitar. Of course he's going to learn tunes from straight melody players, but as far as technique goes: if he is sensitive and smart about playing (which he seems to be!), he will listen to recordings and hopefully meet guitarists to build up his skills. Maybe guitar backing isn't to some peoples' personal preferences, but I personally have no problem with it--especially when the learner in question wants to actually learn and appreciate the music, not just bash out 2 chords unannounced in a session.
Granted, I'm a flute player--but when I was first learning, I listened to a straight diet of Lunasa and Kevin Crawford. I basically wanted to BE Kevin Crawford. Does this advocate a tradition of carbon-flute copy-cats? My style/sound is VASTLY different to Mr. Crawford's and I learned that each person is different. However, in trying to do some of the crazy ornamentations he does on various CDs, I became a better flute player just due to sheer practice time and the realization of what works best for me personally.
Good luck, thejigisup! That being said, Josh Dukes from Baltimore, Maryland in the States is a lovely accompanist as well. He play with Sean McComiskey a lot and probably has some videos up on youtube
Re: Would like suggestions of guitar/backing folks to listen for....
"But your position is of a guitar player learning "from older guitarists as well as from the tunes and melody players". This directly champions the incorporation of the guitar within the tradition."
Well, actually yes, that's true, at least to some extent. I see nothing wrong with a little evolution, change or development for those who are so inclined. May god strike me down for my heresy!
Re: Would like suggestions of guitar/backing folks to listen for....
Crikey! 'Strawberriein the salt sea'; your 'handle' is almost as bloody ridiculous & poetically expansive as your membership blurb! (wink! wink!!!!)- Irony warning for possible New World bloke...
Come and see how I back on the old baritone ukulele. I ain't learnt from no bloody backers! I've learnt by listening to all the others!
Re: Would like suggestions of guitar/backing folks to listen for....
Well at least I'm getting somewhere and you now admit to advocating the incorporation of the guitar within the tradition. And therefor contradict the assertion that the tradition is complete without it.
But while this certainly is a change, it is not a development - in the strict sense of being a growth, or progression.
Evolution is a better word for it, in the Darwinistic sense. The incorporation of the guitar into the tradition is a adaptation of the music to exist in an environment where the guitar is ubiquitous.
So why is this not growth, or progression? Because more is lost than gained.
Specifically:
much rhythmic subtlety is ironed flat;
subtle and creative intonation is straight-jacketed by the intransigence of frets;
and
the beautiful openness and depth of harmonic ambiguity is "resolved", filled in. Like an exquisite and clear fresh water lake that was once teaming with life, drained and flattened and filled in and replaced with neat rows of chemically enhanced monoculture.
Re: Would like suggestions of guitar/backing folks to listen for....
Indeed we are making progress. Now that I've established beyond any doubt that you're one of those people who thinks that what really are just preferences should be rules, I can rest assured that this isn't a real debate at all. Just one big, fantastical head-butt. I should never have outrightly said that I disagree with you (which was probably kind of rude in hindsight), so I guess I asked for this, haha.
What I mostly don't understand about your viewpoint is this 'if you think this, then you MUST think that' policy. Just because I think that the guitar should have a place within the tradition doesn't mean I think that guitar is an improvement or necessary. I didn't say guitar makes Irish music better, it just makes it...different. It adds a new flavor for listeners to choose or not choose. And to be honest, it makes it more palatable to a lot of people who might not otherwise be attracted to Irish music (is that a bad thing?). It represents a development, a branch-off really, and that's neither good nor bad. It simply...is. If you don't like Irish music with guitar, don't listen to it. Its presence is not stopping you or anyone else from sticking to the traditional format. The tradition is neither complete nor incomplete, it's just what was.
Personally, I enjoy Irish music both ways. I don't listen to a solo fiddler or piper and feel that they need me to fill in any gaps with my chordal awesomeness, so in that sense, I regard it as complete. But sometimes it's fun to join in, and I just so happen to play guitar. Whoops. But since the tunes are the most important thing anyways, it shouldn't matter what they're being played on, right?
Now if your main criteria for barring an instrument from the grand holy tradition of Irish music is its limitations, come on. Every instrument has its limitations. The guitar at the very least is more versatile than a lot of instruments, especially those within Irish music, which is the reason for its ubiquity in so many styles. If anything I regard that as a good thing. And as far as your arguments against the guitar due to it having frets, what say you of instruments like the accordion or the banjo? Does their addition represent as much of a downgrade to Irish music as the guitar in your mind because they can't quite play between the notes? And what about the harp, which is limited in much the same way, and one of the original instruments in Irish music? As far as playing chords goes, it is sometimes possible to tonally leave room for the fiddler or whoever to play their not quite minor or major 3rds or some of the other not quite equal-tempered notes they might want to play. Sure, it puts some limitations on, but I think of it more as a trade-off than an outright robbery.
In regards to the rest of your arguments, nearly all of those come down to the player, not the instrument itself. Yeah, I'll admit, some guitarists are crummy, some don't know what they're doing and plenty get involved without any understanding of the tunes and make a muck of things. Maybe this is your experience with most guitarists, which is unfortunate. And yes, a session with more than one guitarist can be annoying unless all are very good and very considerate. But if a guitarist knows and understands the tunes as well as everyone else, I fail to see how, if enjoyed by everyone present, it can't add as much to the music as any other participating instrumentalist. A guitarist isn't relegated only to playing chords, or only playing certain types of chords. The range is quite wide, as demonstrated by the variety of different accompaniment styles, and a sensitive guitarist can play alongside any melodic instrument without taking away its dynamic range. To say otherwise is both stubborn and technically speaking, unscientific.
And for the record, if you check the biographies of many of the guitarists previously listed in this thread, most will state being influenced by guitar players, contrary to your notion that none of them were. Notably, Donal Clancy who was mentioned as being one of the most sensitive and in sync with the tunes, was inspired by Arty McGlynn, Paul Brady and Duck Baker.
Honestly, this whole discussion is really quite pointless, and I wouldn't bother if I didn't love to argue and ponder these kinds of things so much. The fact is, Irish music is going two intertwining paths, one that sticks as closely as possible to tradition and the other which integrates the occasional new element, and this is happening/has happened to most folk musics. I'm of the opinion that one can respect, enjoy and understand the tradition while still welcoming new additions, at least some of the time. I don't view that as contradictory or mutually exclusive.
Phew! Now I sure hope I don't stumble into your session by accident when I visit Edinburgh again! (not because I wouldn't want to meet you but because I wouldn't want to annoy you further, haha)
Re: Would like suggestions of guitar/backing folks to listen for....
The notion of there being many traditions of Irish music that can coexist is largely a fallacy. Sure, there are moments in time when there exists a certain amount of coexistence, but in the long run, these are non-sustainable. And instant global communications quickens this exponentially.
Things evolve and things die out. And it's quite clear that the three features of Irish music I mentioned above, rhythmic subtlety, creative intonation and harmonic ambiguity, are dying out. And this is largely due to the ubiquity of the guitar (though you are right, of course, in pointing out the guilt of banjos and accordions etc.)
But what of your accusation that I'm "one of those people who thinks that what really are just preferences should be rules"? This is nonsense of course. Your preference is for less rhythmic subtlety, creative intonation and harmonic ambiguity. My preference is for more (or at the very least, the freedom and space for more).
I can't make rules for this music, no one can. And I'd never want to make rules. The whole concept of this music is the contradiction that there can never be a concept. It moves where the collective will of its practitioners takes it. It is anarchic and so it should be. If it wasn't for this, the violin, an instrument of sixteenth century Italy, would never have been accepted.
However, like any anarchic system, its mere dog eat dog. And the strength of the dog is paramount.
You have me down as a traditionalist. Nothing could be further from the truth. I'm not in the least bit interested in tradition ... in the same way the musicians who introduced the violin to Irish music weren't. You have me down as someone who wants to make a rule of "no guitars" because they are not traditional. No one could argue that point sensibly and I have never done that. All I have done is try to explain why my preference is for no more guitars.
Yes, I'm a fatalist and a cynic. I know full well that the ubiquity of the guitar is the dog that is devouring my dog. Is this a shame? Well, from my point of view it is, but from yours it's not, yours is the more ferocious dog.
And I know full well that there's not a damn thing I can do about this, but you can. Before you devour my dog completely, try putting down your guitar and learning to play some tunes on a flute or a fiddle say. And give yourself some inkling of what is being lost.
Re: Would like suggestions of guitar/backing folks to listen for....
While I don't want to get into this debate too deeply I have some misgivings when the strawberry says:
'It adds a new flavor for listeners to choose or not choose'
because listeners are not given that choice. Some time ago I was driving along, listening to Clare FM playing a lovely sensitive bit of Clare concertina playing. In the background was a guitarist going berserk, walloping along like he was carrying a full flight Bothy Band. I thought it was out of place and insensitive.
It's just one example of many I could put forward. There is no choice for the listener. Instead there is pressure on people who record to add backing.
Some years ago I did a CD with a friend. There was pressure from some corners to add a guitar. Pressure I didn't give in to. Around the same time I was talking to a very nice concertina player who was recording. She was convinced she should not do it without backing. 'People wouldn't buy the CD' . She couldn't be convinced they would. Again, just a few examples out of many similar experiences.
While I could also mention many backers who lightly carry along the tune, adding a bit of emphasis and a bit of colour the unfortunate fact is, a large portion of backers only strengthens a sense of sonic uniformity. And, as a listener, I don't feel I have any choice in it.
Re: Would like suggestions of guitar/backing folks to listen for....
Listeners are given that choice, and they've more or less made their choice. They don't buy the solo stuff - or at least, they don't buy enough of it to make it a good bet for an artist who's trying to make a living.
That doesn't argue for or against the use of guitar or similar instruments in the music - I think most people are wrong on this, and I try to buy solo records whenever I find them - but it's not some conspiracy of record producers trying to destroy the music. They're trying to make a record that people will buy, so the artist will make money, so the artist will hire them again. If the artist wants to record solo, it's the producer's fiduciary duty and self-interest to warn them about the likely consequences of that choice.
If you don't like this state of affairs, the problem is simple: there is certainly a market for solo recordings of tunes by good players, but the market is too small to be worth the risk of serving it in the traditional manner. A musician would starve, and a label would go under, if they tried to make a go of it. Figure out a way to concentrate that market into a body that will reliably consume even a thousand copies of a solo recording within two months of release and you'll have plenty of what you're looking for. Until that happens, the solo record will be a rare thing - because the musicians have to eat, and so they make records that they know, or hope, they can sell.
Good luck with that.
Re: Would like suggestions of guitar/backing folks to listen for....
This is what I say about the anarchy of it. It's not a conspiracy by guitar players or record companies at all. Just mere pragmatism in the face of the inexorable rise of the guitar globally.
Fundamentally, it's to do with a particular falsehood, peddled incessantly by capitalists (and dare I say it, mostly American capitalists): namely, choice breeds diversity, which in turn breeds more choice.
As I said above, neat rows of chemically enhanced monoculture.
Re: Would like suggestions of guitar/backing folks to listen for....
I don't think that's completely true Jon. First of all, most, if not all, CDs I have bought over the last few years are self produced ones. Labels and producers don't have a big part to play where traditional recordings are concerned.
There is a a sense among some musicians they won't sell copies without backing. I am not convinced that is true. There's certainly a degree of peer pressure that kicks in when making a CD is discussed. Safety in numbers, making a solo recording with a dozen of friends playing along and all that nonsense.
Saying the listener has a choice is nonsense though. He/she hasn't.
Re: Would like suggestions of guitar/backing folks to listen for....
No, we shouldn't. People putting money into a recording project are worried about getting it back though. But overall, I think there's a bit of a vicious circle there, with too many people hearing a type of backing on CDs and then wishing to copy that 'in the wild' because they think that's how it's supposed to be. And recording musicians in turn trying to satisfy that again.
Would like suggestions of guitar/backing folks to listen for....
Would like suggestions of guitar/backing folks to listen for....
I am a guitar beginner and I've recently heard several conversations about what is appropriate and not in the music (from a backing perspective) and I'm wondering if you guys can help me make a list of folks to listen to that might be helpful. Who is doing it "right" in your opinion (and why - what should I listen for) and who is doing it "wrong" or "not quite in the tradition"?
Guitar backers are most helpful but also bouzouki or piano might be appropriate....so can you guys give me your favorites and not so favorites?
I didn't find another thread like this when searching but if there is one, I'd appreciate a pointer to it!
TIA!
# Posted on March 23rd 2011 by thejigisup
Re: Would like suggestions of guitar/backing folks to listen for....
That is a very broad question. There are so many different styles of accompaniment and they are all equally valid. Many people prefer a stripped-back, minimalist style with a few partial chords and flashes of melody. Others like a more full-on style that sits right along side the melody instrument. It is all a matter of personal taste.
The most important thing to watch is the right hand rhythm (or left hand I suppose if you are cack-handed!). That is more important than the chords being played. Quite often a single drone chord will do for large sections of a tune but it is the rhythm of the accompanist that makes it.
Some well known and well respected guitar accompanists would include:
Tim Edey
John Doyle
Dennis Cahill
Kris Drever
Anna Massie
Steve Cooney
Jim Murray
Ian Carr
Donough Hennessy
Ross Martin
Seamie O'Dowd
Peerie Willie Johnson
The list can go on and on and on (and will). Have a wee look around youtube and see what you like and go from there.
# Posted on March 23rd 2011 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Would like suggestions of guitar/backing folks to listen for....
Charlie Lennon on piano
# Posted on March 23rd 2011 by TomB-R
Re: Would like suggestions of guitar/backing folks to listen for....
If it's good rhythm yer after, ya could do worse than have a listen to Arty "metronome" McGlynn on numerous recordings with Matt Molloy, James Kelly etc...
Also, John Blake does a mighty job providing accompaniment on the Kane sisters album (in DADGAD to the best of my knowledge).
The list, for better or worse, is endless...
# Posted on March 23rd 2011 by laguacamaya
Re: Would like suggestions of guitar/backing folks to listen for....
There are so many different styles of guitar accompaniment for irish music and so many different opinions on who plays it best that you could end up being more confused after you get the answers than before you asked the question. Try and listen to as many styles as you can and go for the one or ones that appeal to you. Start off simply try some things yourself and very soon you will have your own stamp on it. Hope this helps and the best of luck!
# Posted on March 23rd 2011 by dulahan
Re: Would like suggestions of guitar/backing folks to listen for....
Donal Clancy knows the tunes (that is, he actually plays the melodies on guitar and zouk), and so that informs his approach to accompaniment. Of all the strummers, for me, Donal is one of the best at knowing how to blend with the melody instruments.
# Posted on March 23rd 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: Would like suggestions of guitar/backing folks to listen for....
I understand the need to find someone you like but I guess another question would be - are some more "in the tradition" than others? (I should add that I live in the States.)
I guess I've heard a comment or two about accompanists being "too american" or using the wrong rhythms. I don't mean a dabbler who is obviously mucking it up....we're talking folks who know the music well and have been playing it for a while and sound, to my inexperienced ears, just fine. But then someone will come along and say "not Irish enough" or some such. So I'm just wondering, is it truly a matter of taste or is there something a bit more subtle that they are not getting (and me with my newbie guitar ears doesn't hear yet).....
Maybe I just need to really listen to the folks you all mentioned and then I'll start to hear the difference....or maybe there's not one and it's all just one guy's style versus another.....
???
# Posted on March 23rd 2011 by thejigisup
Re: Would like suggestions of guitar/backing folks to listen for....
Randal Bays is another musician who knows the tunes, playing fiddle and guitar. His work on Martin Hayes' first album is really worth listening to. (Mr Hayes certainly has a way of picking out, how does yaalhouse phrase it -- six-string devil botherers
?) Dáithí Sproule belongs on the list of great guitarists, too.
# Posted on March 24th 2011 by fidkid
Re: Would like suggestions of guitar/backing folks to listen for....
This is a big question and we'd love to help. Your last paragraph said it best if you change the or for an and. Listen closely to these players and others, do they drive the rhythm giving it a great oomph, do they hold back and let the melody breath and stand up on it's own, do they weave a fine filigree of harmony around the tune or do they do all three,none of these or something else entirely. We could give you our favourites whom we think enhance the backing and someone else will disagree entirely. You will be playing it so listen to what you think is nice and use it and move on as if picking apples in an orchard. Eventually your basket will be full of the finest fruit. We hope this advice works for you. If not you can disgard it as a bad apple.
# Posted on March 24th 2011 by dulahan
Re: Would like suggestions of guitar/backing folks to listen for....
I don't think you should be listening to guitar backers at all and certainly not for inspiration. That approach is like being interested in marine biology and watching Finding Nemo. Or liking The Beatles and listening to Oasis. Or liking a good steak and eating at Macdonald's. Or being interested in the news and reading The Sun. Or liking wildlife and going to the Zoo.
The tune is king. All your inspiration should come from the tunes, the players of the tunes, the turns in the tunes, the rhythm of the tunes.
# Posted on March 24th 2011 by ...
Re: Would like suggestions of guitar/backing folks to listen for....
There is not one particularly traditional style on the guitar in the same way as there is not one style of fiddle playing or box playing. There are lots of different styles and preferences. As long as you are accompanying well and as long as you and those you are playing with like it then that is the most important thing. In fact, given the relatively short time that there has been guitar accompaniment in traditional music (in comparison to say, the fiddle) then it is even more the case that it is down to personal taste.
You keep on talking about an Irish style. I should point out that some of the folk on my list were Scottish. That does not necessarily matter and you can learn plenty from all of them. Someone like Peerie Willie though had a particular style of his own that has become strongly identified with Shetland.
# Posted on March 24th 2011 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Would like suggestions of guitar/backing folks to listen for....
Ahh - the Yoda of traditional music speaks!
# Posted on March 24th 2011 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Would like suggestions of guitar/backing folks to listen for....
...yer profile says you're a fiddler. Best hock the guitar, pocket the cash and keep fiddlin'. Kinda like trading in a Cadillac for a Pinto this guitar business....
# Posted on March 24th 2011 by shanty
Re: Would like suggestions of guitar/backing folks to listen for....
No Cause gave a great list, and now that Will has mentioned Donal Clancy, everyone I would have listed has shown up!
Don't listen just to the accompanist. Don't listen just to the tune. Listen to the partnership between the two. That is where you either hear the magic or you don't...
# Posted on March 24th 2011 by AlBrown
Re: Would like suggestions of guitar/backing folks to listen for....
The guitarist on the Chieftains first recording sounds about perfect to me.
# Posted on March 24th 2011 by shanty
Re: Would like suggestions of guitar/backing folks to listen for....
Thanks for the list guys!
And the words of, um, wisdom. LOL
Shanty - no worries - the fiddle is still/always my first love - but the guitar has been a welcome diversion and is letting me learn about the music from a whole other dimension (as is the flute I'm trying to learn!)....I just need a bigger garage apparently to house all my cars!
# Posted on March 24th 2011 by thejigisup
Re: Would like suggestions of guitar/backing folks to listen for....
Sell the guitar, buy a bouzouki and step into the light.
Alec Finn
Donal Lunny
(both of whom play guitar too)
# Posted on March 24th 2011 by Sugarfoot Jack
Re: Would like suggestions of guitar/backing folks to listen for....
llig is right when he says the tune is king, but I'd say you already know that. So with that in mind I'd tender the following:
Listen to every guitarist you come across, the good the bad and the indifferent, as all have a lesson for the aspirant axe man/woman (axe person) even if the lesson is "mental note to self: don't ever play this like that like that" there's value in it all and the more lessons you learn from others the better. Also don't limit your guitar listening to just trad when seeking inspiration. There are a fair few one trick pony backers out there. A good backer, IMO, needs to be able to speak in many voices to articulate all the hues and nuances that make good subtle backing good, tailored to each and every situation or combination. Develop your own stamp by drawing on as many sources as possible.
NCFA; Where's Arty or Cocky Mark Clements in that list? Or big Tony for that matter?
Not ITM but McManus's treatment of the backing on "return to kintail" is undoubtedly right there and you can hear the big man digging deep into his bag of tricks to voice and articulate subtle hues and subtitles, not rockin roll but I like it, here:
http://www.musicscotland.com/cd/mp3%2dAlasdair%2dFraser%2dAnd%2dTony%2dMcmanus%2dReturn%2dTo%2dKintail%2dCd%2ehtml
# Posted on March 24th 2011 by Solidmahog
Re: Would like suggestions of guitar/backing folks to listen for....
But Tony MacManus doesn't really "back" the fiddle on that record, he plays "with" it. Big difference.
# Posted on March 24th 2011 by ...
Re: Would like suggestions of guitar/backing folks to listen for....
I don't think anyone mentioned Micheal Ó Domhnaill yet.
# Posted on March 24th 2011 by DaveL35
Re: Would like suggestions of guitar/backing folks to listen for....
"But Tony MacManus doesn't really "back" the fiddle on that record, he plays "with" it. Big difference.", llig
That guy says tomatos, this one says tomAtos and you've been in Edinburgh long enough to know there are people who'll say, tamatties, they all describe the same fruit!
I'd say we're on the same page regarding backing/playing with. We're just using different terminology to articulate the same thing.
Interestingly the only players I'll whip out the guitar for are the ones who'll let me play "with them", rather than the ones who'll impose conditions, life's too short for that, it stifles creativity in music making. If people don't like what I do (that should really now be "did", but this is likely just be a temporary state of affairs as I do love playing guitar) then they don't have to play with me. I'll never impose myself on anyone in that regard.
If you need me to keep time your asking the wrong trousers! Because as you always assert it's the tunes that have the pulse and therefore the time beats out from the tune, "the tune is King!". So when I play "with" people I describe it as providing accompaniment and " I " assume backing to be the same thing, others may not get it, sound like you do. So while it may transpire that "you" may not like my way round things, I'd like to think if we were sat, just the two of us, we'd both be there with the attitude that we were playing together.
For years I liked to think Tony M wasn't a backer/player with're as his main focus was the tunes, but the man is a genius accompanist/backer/player with're to boot and deserves to be on that list more than a few I could mention.
Any want to be guitar player shouldn't discount Tony's playing on "return from Kintail" it's quality, especially his accompaniment, it's not driving jigs and reels or lightning polka backing, it's much much more.
# Posted on March 24th 2011 by Solidmahog
Re: Would like suggestions of guitar/backing folks to listen for....
That of course should be "Return to Kintail"
# Posted on March 24th 2011 by Solidmahog
Re: Would like suggestions of guitar/backing folks to listen for....
Solidmahog - thanks for the link and the interesting discussion....I really like that point of view - playing along with rather than "backing" - I will need to mull that over more when I'm listening....
My list is getting bigger of good folks to listen to! Thanks everyone!
# Posted on March 24th 2011 by thejigisup
Re: Would like suggestions of guitar/backing folks to listen for....
Indeed plenty more guitarists to name. I didn't pretend that the list was comprehensive. It would be easy enough to double it.
# Posted on March 24th 2011 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Would like suggestions of guitar/backing folks to listen for....
All those mentioned above, and also grab a copy of Tommy Peoples album The Quiet Glen with Alph Duggan on guitar. Inspiring stuff from both players. Alph's playing is very tasteful and not overbearing, blending beautifully with the fiddle. You would do well to take note of that.
# Posted on March 24th 2011 by tradshark
Re: Would like suggestions of guitar/backing folks to listen for....
I can't think of anyone to add to the list since I think others have pretty well covered the very best guitarists, but just wanted to say that I completely, absolutely disagree with llig leahcim and hope that you don't take his advice! Nobody would tell you not to listen to fiddle players if you were just starting to learn fiddle, so there's no reason this should be any different.
(And I mean no disrespect to you, Ilig Ieahcim, I just, well...strongly disagree!)
I think Solidmahog says it best about listening to every guitarist you come across, good or bad. If you already understand the music and the tunes, then the only way you're going to learn about guitar technique, chord voicings, the distinct ways that the guitar can be played and how it relates to other instruments, is by listening to guitar players. Whether they're playing the role of the strict backer, playing solo or on some middle ground, you should give them all a good listen (just as intently as you would listen to any great fiddler or piper) and then decide from there which you like best and would most like to emulate. And yeah, you'll probably come across someone who doesn't think that particular style of guitar-playing is 'appropriate' or traditional enough, but as long as you have people to play with who you like and respect and who like and respect you back, then who cares about those nay-sayers?
You can't please everyone, especially when you're talking about guitar in Irish music
# Posted on March 28th 2011 by strawberriesinthesaltsea
Re: Would like suggestions of guitar/backing folks to listen for....
Strawberries, I don't think you understand what I was saying. Diddley music is complete in itself. The tunes. That's it.
Now, if you want to strum to it that's fine of course, what ever floats you and your accommodating tune playing pals' boat.
The point is, if you want to strum to it with respect for what it is, then all your inspiration should come from the completeness of the music that is the tunes, the players of the tunes, the turns in the tunes, the rhythm of the tunes.
To take inspiration from other strummers is like going to a football match and standing facing the crowd with your back to the play and cheering when the crowd cheers.
If you still "absolutely disagree" with this, then I'm either right, and you don't understand what I'm saying, or, you don't understand or appreciate diddley music for what it is.
# Posted on March 28th 2011 by ...
Re: Would like suggestions of guitar/backing folks to listen for....
Quite a lot of people "don't understand or appreciate diddley music for what it is," as I am sure you know yourself. I've had several conversations with people who are peripheral participants in the session scene,ranging from the sig. other of a musician to the classic "six-string devil" botherer who hangs about the fringes of sessions, about the nature of accompaniment in Irish trad. They complain that most Irish music lacks a "bottom end." There's too much "top end," too much melody and higher notes and not enough bass to feel balanced. I respond with more or less what Michael has said. Then the conversation grinds to a standstill.
# Posted on March 28th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Would like suggestions of guitar/backing folks to listen for....
People complain to a piper that the music lacks "bottom end" ??
# Posted on March 28th 2011 by David50
Re: Would like suggestions of guitar/backing folks to listen for....
Drones don't go "boom, boom, boom, boom," which is obviously what people want.
Except mine occasionally go "wah, wah, wah, wah." Not so good.
# Posted on March 28th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Would like suggestions of guitar/backing folks to listen for....
And an awful lot of people go to football matches not for the football, but to be part of the crowd. (I was quite pleased with that analogy)
# Posted on March 28th 2011 by ...
Re: Would like suggestions of guitar/backing folks to listen for....
It is a good analogy. Backers; as you listen to the music, also look for visual clues of general unease, frustration and hostility from the people playing the melody. A good sign as to how your contribution with your bodhran, guitar, or say... the evening long practice of nothing more than loud upbeat-downbeat chords on a PA, is when melody players begin to move away from your general din. You should be cautious when you begin to see melody players put down their instruments mid-tune, to heft empty pint glasses, as the look menacingly in your direction. If in between tunes, the melody players are all huddled together on the other side of the circle, murmuring and giving you angry looks, it's time for you to skedaddle.
# Posted on March 28th 2011 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: Would like suggestions of guitar/backing folks to listen for....
...as to how your contribution IS RECEIVED...
# Posted on March 28th 2011 by Atahualpa Quigley
... suggestions ... guitar ... folks to listen for....
Listen to tunes being played, not chords being strummed. Then you should be hearing the rhythm of the tunes.
# Posted on March 28th 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: Would like suggestions of guitar/backing folks to listen for....
I think the OP is someone who gets the gist of the tunes, and as stated, is looking for pointers for broadening their backing abilities by asking for suggestions for further listening.
In this regard it's other backers backing familiar tunes that I'd recommend listening too, not tunes in isolation. Once you've got a handle on a accompaniment for this or that tune, listening to how others approach the same is a good call really, thats what the OP is asking! Simple.
# Posted on March 28th 2011 by Solidmahog
Re: Would like suggestions of guitar/backing folks to listen for....
Ilig Ieahcim, I do understand what you're saying, and I agree that the music is complete in itself. As awesome as I think the guitar is, I know that no one needs additional chords and rhythm. And yes, when you're playing with someone, you should always be deferring to the melody and trying to back in such a way that is sensitive to the tune, the player, and not stomping all over everything, and certainly not copy-pasting some idea you learned from another guitarist's backing of different tune into the one at hand. But my point is, thejigisup already plays Irish music and is only now starting on guitar. If it were the other way around, I'd agree with you in saying that, at least for a while, one is best off not listening to other backers and focusing strictly on the tunes. But I feel that there's no need to reinvent the wheel. There are many, many guitar players who play with all their inspiration coming from 'the players of the tunes, the turns in the tunes, the rhythm of the tunes', and so I think there's nothing wrong with figuring out what they do in order to have a better understanding of how the guitar works and the myriad possibilities in playing it, while of course staying very sensitive to the tune itself and the musicians who you play with.
Does that make sense? I'm not advocating a guitar-centric approach, just a balanced one. And I don't think I misunderstand you, Ilig Ieachcim, I just think we're on different wavelengths.
To thejigisup: sorry for the soapbox! A lot of good advice has been given and I hope you have fun learning to play guitar and exploring music from a new perspective.
# Posted on March 28th 2011 by strawberriesinthesaltsea
Re: Would like suggestions of guitar/backing folks to listen for....
So, what works for the "many guitar players who play with all their inspiration coming from tunes" won't work for thejigisup?
You don't advise him to do what they do, you advise him to take his inspiration from someone who took their inspiration from the tunes.
Those players invented their ways of playing the guitar with the tunes, so now that's been done, "there's no need" for thejigisup to "reinvent" it. Just copy them.
What you are advocating is a tradition of guitar strumming. And the awful pain of that is that in reallity, that is what is actually begining to happen. A tradition of dadgad strummy copycats. A plague of second hand, third hand, forth hand inspiration. And your advice is to sustain this anathema.
It drains the colour from the music, and irons flat the beauty of its textures. It slices away dynamics and squashes freedom. It makes it taste of nothing and smell of ubiquity. It makes it all sound the same.
So don't be a part of that Mr jigisup. Be inspired by the tunes, just as all the great guitar players are. Don't be inspired by guitar players.
# Posted on March 28th 2011 by ...
Re: Would like suggestions of guitar/backing folks to listen for....
There are sessions with three or more guitar strummers & the tunes do suffer. The tunes take a back seat to the backers.
# Posted on March 28th 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: Would like suggestions of guitar/backing folks to listen for....
Oy, I've never felt so misunderstood or misinterpreted! I'll chalk this one up to my inarticulateness and assume that I'm better off not starting long-distance debates in the future.
But juuuust to clarify:
"Those players invented their ways of playing the guitar with the tunes, so now that's been done, "there's no need" for thejigisup to "reinvent" it. Just copy them."
Well, if we're talking about learning a new instrument, then yes, absolutely. Doesn't everyone learn at first by copying others? Isn't the usual process to emulate others, master your instrument, then move on and do something new? I never meant to imply that one should stop there. In my experience it's usually easier to invent something new if you can do at least some of what's already been done. The ultimate inspiration comes from the tunes, indisputably. But in order to get to a place where you can be directly inspired by the tunes, it helps to have learned the techniques first, and the best place to learn how to play an instrument, from a purely technical standpoint, is from players of the same instrument.
"What you are advocating is a tradition of guitar strumming. And the awful pain of that is that in reallity, that is what is actually begining to happen."
No, I'm hardly saying that. I'm of the opinion that the guitar's role in Irish music is becoming far more refined, tasteful, versatile and virtuosic over time, and part of the reason that's the case is because no one has to start from scratch - they've been able to learn from older guitarists as well as from the tunes and melody players. There are so many great players to listen to, some with very different approaches to accompaniment. Why exist in a vacuum? I think it's extremely helpful to hear what the guitar is capable of in the hands of people like Tony McManus or John Doyle. Even if you don't stick to their styles, it can give you ideas about new places to take your own playing.
But that's just my lowly guitarist opinion, after all!
# Posted on March 29th 2011 by strawberriesinthesaltsea
Re: Would like suggestions of guitar/backing folks to listen for....
the tunes & melody players do not exist in a vacuum.
# Posted on March 29th 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: Would like suggestions of guitar/backing folks to listen for....
I don't think I'm misrepresenting you, I'm trying to quote you as directly as I can.
Yes, it's "easier" to copy. But that doesn't mean it's right.
Your "ultimate inspiration" is your admission of my accusation of the "plague of second hand inspiration".
My accusation is that "you are advocating a tradition of guitar strumming". And you deny this with, "No, I'm hardly saying that". And yet you say that guitarists are, "able to learn from older guitarists as well as from the tunes and melody players".
The traditional music I play, diddley music, is traditional music because it is handed down. We learn to play the tunes from other tune players. We tune players continue a tradition of tune playing. We don't, as Ben points out, exist in a vacuum. And you agree that this music is "complete". So my premise is straight forward, if a guitar strummer wants to play this traditional music, then they must learn from the tunes and from tune players.
But your position is of a guitar player learning "from older guitarists as well as from the tunes and melody players". This directly champions the incorporation of the guitar within the tradition.
# Posted on March 29th 2011 by ...
Re: Would like suggestions of guitar/backing folks to listen for....
I hope I'm not getting in the middle of an intense skirmish here...but...I see nothing wrong with telling the guy to listen to guitar players' backing if he already clearly plays a melody instrument, and also wants to learn...guitar. Of course he's going to learn tunes from straight melody players, but as far as technique goes: if he is sensitive and smart about playing (which he seems to be!), he will listen to recordings and hopefully meet guitarists to build up his skills. Maybe guitar backing isn't to some peoples' personal preferences, but I personally have no problem with it--especially when the learner in question wants to actually learn and appreciate the music, not just bash out 2 chords unannounced in a session.
Granted, I'm a flute player--but when I was first learning, I listened to a straight diet of Lunasa and Kevin Crawford. I basically wanted to BE Kevin Crawford. Does this advocate a tradition of carbon-flute copy-cats? My style/sound is VASTLY different to Mr. Crawford's and I learned that each person is different. However, in trying to do some of the crazy ornamentations he does on various CDs, I became a better flute player just due to sheer practice time and the realization of what works best for me personally.
Good luck, thejigisup! That being said, Josh Dukes from Baltimore, Maryland in the States is a lovely accompanist as well. He play with Sean McComiskey a lot and probably has some videos up on youtube
# Posted on March 29th 2011 by mellow yellow
Re: Would like suggestions of guitar/backing folks to listen for....
"But your position is of a guitar player learning "from older guitarists as well as from the tunes and melody players". This directly champions the incorporation of the guitar within the tradition."
Well, actually yes, that's true, at least to some extent. I see nothing wrong with a little evolution, change or development for those who are so inclined. May god strike me down for my heresy!
# Posted on March 30th 2011 by strawberriesinthesaltsea
Re: Would like suggestions of guitar/backing folks to listen for....
Crikey! 'Strawberriein the salt sea'; your 'handle' is almost as bloody ridiculous & poetically expansive as your membership blurb! (wink! wink!!!!)- Irony warning for possible New World bloke...
Come and see how I back on the old baritone ukulele. I ain't learnt from no bloody backers! I've learnt by listening to all the others!
# Posted on March 30th 2011 by yhaalhouse
Re: Would like suggestions of guitar/backing folks to listen for....
Well at least I'm getting somewhere and you now admit to advocating the incorporation of the guitar within the tradition. And therefor contradict the assertion that the tradition is complete without it.
But while this certainly is a change, it is not a development - in the strict sense of being a growth, or progression.
Evolution is a better word for it, in the Darwinistic sense. The incorporation of the guitar into the tradition is a adaptation of the music to exist in an environment where the guitar is ubiquitous.
So why is this not growth, or progression? Because more is lost than gained.
Specifically:
much rhythmic subtlety is ironed flat;
subtle and creative intonation is straight-jacketed by the intransigence of frets;
and
the beautiful openness and depth of harmonic ambiguity is "resolved", filled in. Like an exquisite and clear fresh water lake that was once teaming with life, drained and flattened and filled in and replaced with neat rows of chemically enhanced monoculture.
# Posted on March 30th 2011 by ...
Re: Would like suggestions of guitar/backing folks to listen for....
Indeed we are making progress. Now that I've established beyond any doubt that you're one of those people who thinks that what really are just preferences should be rules, I can rest assured that this isn't a real debate at all. Just one big, fantastical head-butt. I should never have outrightly said that I disagree with you (which was probably kind of rude in hindsight), so I guess I asked for this, haha.
What I mostly don't understand about your viewpoint is this 'if you think this, then you MUST think that' policy. Just because I think that the guitar should have a place within the tradition doesn't mean I think that guitar is an improvement or necessary. I didn't say guitar makes Irish music better, it just makes it...different. It adds a new flavor for listeners to choose or not choose. And to be honest, it makes it more palatable to a lot of people who might not otherwise be attracted to Irish music (is that a bad thing?). It represents a development, a branch-off really, and that's neither good nor bad. It simply...is. If you don't like Irish music with guitar, don't listen to it. Its presence is not stopping you or anyone else from sticking to the traditional format. The tradition is neither complete nor incomplete, it's just what was.
Personally, I enjoy Irish music both ways. I don't listen to a solo fiddler or piper and feel that they need me to fill in any gaps with my chordal awesomeness, so in that sense, I regard it as complete. But sometimes it's fun to join in, and I just so happen to play guitar. Whoops. But since the tunes are the most important thing anyways, it shouldn't matter what they're being played on, right?
Now if your main criteria for barring an instrument from the grand holy tradition of Irish music is its limitations, come on. Every instrument has its limitations. The guitar at the very least is more versatile than a lot of instruments, especially those within Irish music, which is the reason for its ubiquity in so many styles. If anything I regard that as a good thing. And as far as your arguments against the guitar due to it having frets, what say you of instruments like the accordion or the banjo? Does their addition represent as much of a downgrade to Irish music as the guitar in your mind because they can't quite play between the notes? And what about the harp, which is limited in much the same way, and one of the original instruments in Irish music? As far as playing chords goes, it is sometimes possible to tonally leave room for the fiddler or whoever to play their not quite minor or major 3rds or some of the other not quite equal-tempered notes they might want to play. Sure, it puts some limitations on, but I think of it more as a trade-off than an outright robbery.
In regards to the rest of your arguments, nearly all of those come down to the player, not the instrument itself. Yeah, I'll admit, some guitarists are crummy, some don't know what they're doing and plenty get involved without any understanding of the tunes and make a muck of things. Maybe this is your experience with most guitarists, which is unfortunate. And yes, a session with more than one guitarist can be annoying unless all are very good and very considerate. But if a guitarist knows and understands the tunes as well as everyone else, I fail to see how, if enjoyed by everyone present, it can't add as much to the music as any other participating instrumentalist. A guitarist isn't relegated only to playing chords, or only playing certain types of chords. The range is quite wide, as demonstrated by the variety of different accompaniment styles, and a sensitive guitarist can play alongside any melodic instrument without taking away its dynamic range. To say otherwise is both stubborn and technically speaking, unscientific.
And for the record, if you check the biographies of many of the guitarists previously listed in this thread, most will state being influenced by guitar players, contrary to your notion that none of them were. Notably, Donal Clancy who was mentioned as being one of the most sensitive and in sync with the tunes, was inspired by Arty McGlynn, Paul Brady and Duck Baker.
Honestly, this whole discussion is really quite pointless, and I wouldn't bother if I didn't love to argue and ponder these kinds of things so much. The fact is, Irish music is going two intertwining paths, one that sticks as closely as possible to tradition and the other which integrates the occasional new element, and this is happening/has happened to most folk musics. I'm of the opinion that one can respect, enjoy and understand the tradition while still welcoming new additions, at least some of the time. I don't view that as contradictory or mutually exclusive.
Phew! Now I sure hope I don't stumble into your session by accident when I visit Edinburgh again! (not because I wouldn't want to meet you but because I wouldn't want to annoy you further, haha)
# Posted on March 31st 2011 by strawberriesinthesaltsea
Re: Would like suggestions of guitar/backing folks to listen for....
The notion of there being many traditions of Irish music that can coexist is largely a fallacy. Sure, there are moments in time when there exists a certain amount of coexistence, but in the long run, these are non-sustainable. And instant global communications quickens this exponentially.
Things evolve and things die out. And it's quite clear that the three features of Irish music I mentioned above, rhythmic subtlety, creative intonation and harmonic ambiguity, are dying out. And this is largely due to the ubiquity of the guitar (though you are right, of course, in pointing out the guilt of banjos and accordions etc.)
But what of your accusation that I'm "one of those people who thinks that what really are just preferences should be rules"? This is nonsense of course. Your preference is for less rhythmic subtlety, creative intonation and harmonic ambiguity. My preference is for more (or at the very least, the freedom and space for more).
I can't make rules for this music, no one can. And I'd never want to make rules. The whole concept of this music is the contradiction that there can never be a concept. It moves where the collective will of its practitioners takes it. It is anarchic and so it should be. If it wasn't for this, the violin, an instrument of sixteenth century Italy, would never have been accepted.
However, like any anarchic system, its mere dog eat dog. And the strength of the dog is paramount.
You have me down as a traditionalist. Nothing could be further from the truth. I'm not in the least bit interested in tradition ... in the same way the musicians who introduced the violin to Irish music weren't. You have me down as someone who wants to make a rule of "no guitars" because they are not traditional. No one could argue that point sensibly and I have never done that. All I have done is try to explain why my preference is for no more guitars.
Yes, I'm a fatalist and a cynic. I know full well that the ubiquity of the guitar is the dog that is devouring my dog. Is this a shame? Well, from my point of view it is, but from yours it's not, yours is the more ferocious dog.
And I know full well that there's not a damn thing I can do about this, but you can. Before you devour my dog completely, try putting down your guitar and learning to play some tunes on a flute or a fiddle say. And give yourself some inkling of what is being lost.
# Posted on March 31st 2011 by ...
Re: Would like suggestions of guitar/backing folks to listen for....
While I don't want to get into this debate too deeply I have some misgivings when the strawberry says:
'It adds a new flavor for listeners to choose or not choose'
because listeners are not given that choice. Some time ago I was driving along, listening to Clare FM playing a lovely sensitive bit of Clare concertina playing. In the background was a guitarist going berserk, walloping along like he was carrying a full flight Bothy Band. I thought it was out of place and insensitive.
It's just one example of many I could put forward. There is no choice for the listener. Instead there is pressure on people who record to add backing.
Some years ago I did a CD with a friend. There was pressure from some corners to add a guitar. Pressure I didn't give in to. Around the same time I was talking to a very nice concertina player who was recording. She was convinced she should not do it without backing. 'People wouldn't buy the CD' . She couldn't be convinced they would. Again, just a few examples out of many similar experiences.
While I could also mention many backers who lightly carry along the tune, adding a bit of emphasis and a bit of colour the unfortunate fact is, a large portion of backers only strengthens a sense of sonic uniformity. And, as a listener, I don't feel I have any choice in it.
# Posted on March 31st 2011 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: Would like suggestions of guitar/backing folks to listen for....
Listeners are given that choice, and they've more or less made their choice. They don't buy the solo stuff - or at least, they don't buy enough of it to make it a good bet for an artist who's trying to make a living.
That doesn't argue for or against the use of guitar or similar instruments in the music - I think most people are wrong on this, and I try to buy solo records whenever I find them - but it's not some conspiracy of record producers trying to destroy the music. They're trying to make a record that people will buy, so the artist will make money, so the artist will hire them again. If the artist wants to record solo, it's the producer's fiduciary duty and self-interest to warn them about the likely consequences of that choice.
If you don't like this state of affairs, the problem is simple: there is certainly a market for solo recordings of tunes by good players, but the market is too small to be worth the risk of serving it in the traditional manner. A musician would starve, and a label would go under, if they tried to make a go of it. Figure out a way to concentrate that market into a body that will reliably consume even a thousand copies of a solo recording within two months of release and you'll have plenty of what you're looking for. Until that happens, the solo record will be a rare thing - because the musicians have to eat, and so they make records that they know, or hope, they can sell.
Good luck with that.
# Posted on March 31st 2011 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Would like suggestions of guitar/backing folks to listen for....
This is what I say about the anarchy of it. It's not a conspiracy by guitar players or record companies at all. Just mere pragmatism in the face of the inexorable rise of the guitar globally.
Fundamentally, it's to do with a particular falsehood, peddled incessantly by capitalists (and dare I say it, mostly American capitalists): namely, choice breeds diversity, which in turn breeds more choice.
As I said above, neat rows of chemically enhanced monoculture.
# Posted on March 31st 2011 by ...
Re: Would like suggestions of guitar/backing folks to listen for....
I don't think that's completely true Jon. First of all, most, if not all, CDs I have bought over the last few years are self produced ones. Labels and producers don't have a big part to play where traditional recordings are concerned.
There is a a sense among some musicians they won't sell copies without backing. I am not convinced that is true. There's certainly a degree of peer pressure that kicks in when making a CD is discussed. Safety in numbers, making a solo recording with a dozen of friends playing along and all that nonsense.
Saying the listener has a choice is nonsense though. He/she hasn't.
# Posted on March 31st 2011 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: Would like suggestions of guitar/backing folks to listen for....
I don't think we should get hung up on the money-making/surviving aspect of "so-called" professional musicians though.
The "free" music in pubs and people's houses etc is just as dominated by strumming.
# Posted on March 31st 2011 by ...
Re: Would like suggestions of guitar/backing folks to listen for....
No, we shouldn't. People putting money into a recording project are worried about getting it back though. But overall, I think there's a bit of a vicious circle there, with too many people hearing a type of backing on CDs and then wishing to copy that 'in the wild' because they think that's how it's supposed to be. And recording musicians in turn trying to satisfy that again.
# Posted on March 31st 2011 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: Would like suggestions of guitar/backing folks to listen for....
Yes Prof, and your worry is precisely what that strawberries fella is openly advocating
# Posted on March 31st 2011 by ...