The Session >> Discussions >> An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
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An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Cé hé an seinteoir ceol uirlise tradisiúnta is fearr, dar libh, fós sa saol inniu? Tá na ceadta imreoirí iontacha againn inniu, Tommy Peoples, na Shannons, Martin Hayes, Karen Tweed Banjo O'Connor, Brian Finnegan, Mike McGoldrick, Mícheál Ó'Suilleabháin, chun cúpla ainmeacha a chasadh amach anseo. Tuigim go bhfuil na scileanna go léir an-difriúil do gach uirlis, ach tá tuairim ag a lán duine faoin gceist seo, is docha.
Ba cheart votaí a thógaint, is docha, ach níl aon tuairim cén chaoi a chuirfinn é sin i bhfeidhm. . .
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Do you just *like* starting fights? If there's a lengua franca for people on this board, whether their first language is English, Russian, Polish, French, Spanish, Italian, Chinese, etc., then it's only polite to use it. Otherwise, you just end up sounding like an arsehole. Sorry, but you do.
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
the person who looks like the arsehole is the one complaining about the fact that she cannot speak anything but english.
why are you mad at irish and who told you that english is the official language of the session anyway?
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
I dont. All the better if someone wants to post as Gaelige. If you dont understand then contribute to another thread that you do. I dont see why anyone should take the speaking of Irish on an Irish music forum as a personal slight. Saying someone sounds like an arsehole because of it is unacceptable.
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
I would say discussions as Gaelige are totally in keeping with the ethos of Irish music and it use attributes a well needed bit of authenticity to the mustard board otherwise full of english folkies, yanks, pedants and wafflers. Bring back the Gael
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Níor chuir mé post ar bith suas ansin ar feadh na bliaina anois agus tá mé iontach sásta snaith a fheicéail inár dteanga dhucais agus is cuma faoi na amadáin gan chiall nó múineadh orthu. Tá ár dteanga beo fós mar úsáideann daoine í agus scríos dearg ar na 'begrudgers', mar a dúirt Behan.
Maidir leis an cheist, tá sé doiligh í a fhreagairt mar silim go mbraitheann sé ar an fhonn atá orm ar an am. An bhfuil tuairim ar bith agat, a fluther?
Sleá Airgid:
It's 'lingua franca' and why didn't you use the 'common language', particularly in light if the fact that you mispelt the Italian and if you're so keen on English and that. Contrary to your opinion the world does not revolve around you and your preferences. There is no harm in staying out of a conversation that you don't understand. You don't need an opinion on everything. Impolite and arsehole indeed -you're almost right there.
Greg:
Thanks for sharing your truly important opinion on these matters on a thread that is about the most skilled musicians. I'll be sure to let you know my favourite curry recipe on the next thread you start on session etiquette.
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
TSS, If people want to communicate in Irish, why don't you just let them communicate in Irish, in the context of a forum you'll probably have less people who have the capacity to respond and as a consequence less contribution normally means less value, but you need to leave that decision up to the intelligence of the person who posted the initial message, I think you missed a great opportunity to say nothing.
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Silver Spear and Greg, you're both way off base here. I'm shocked at your insults.
Despite living in Montana USA and not doing as much as I should to learn more Irish, I can read and understand some of the posts here as Gaelige. Nil moran Gaeilge agam. I appreciate the chance to improve my meager skills. If you're truly interested in this music, you can't separate it from the culture and the language.
It is *absolutely* fitting on any site about ceol rince na heireann to post as Gaelige. To suggest otherwise completely misses the point of immersing yourself in the music. Is fearr Gaeilge briste, na Bearla cliste.
fluther, big_tab, and Mac Donn: Go raibh maith agaibh!
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
I wont embarass myself by posting as Gaelige, I would be here all day typin the feckin thing. Just to add to Harmons point and on a more positive note. Maybe just like potential Irish musicians hear Irish music for the first time and think "thats for me".. Posts in Irish (on an Irish musical forum) may have the same effect and awaken a passion and interest for someone..
www.tg4.com
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Silim go bhfuil an buncheist chomh doiligh mar atá sé, mar seinnim an ceol seo níos mo na éistím leis. Tá furasta go leor ainm a chur ar mo chuid ceoltóra is fearr i gceol Rác, nó na Gorma nó Snagcheol mar éistím leis an ceol sin níos minice na seinnim é. 'dtuigeann tú mé?
Maith sibh a chairde, tá dearcadh dearfach agaibhse!
Ceol agus teanga na hÉireann abú!
Agus is maith é an leabhar sin 'Progress in Irish'
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
It is impolite to the point of rudeness for people to converse in a language that others in their company can hear but not understand. If you insist on doing it knowing this to be true, you are merely being boorish. And anyone who drags racism, nationalism, jingoism and the like into the argument deserves nothing but contempt.
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
If you heard someone having a conversation with their friends in Irish in a pub, would you go up to them and say "excuse me. I can hear you. That's rude"?
Or would you just think nothing of it and get back to talking with your mates at your own table in English?
I would do the latter. Similarly on this forum if I can't understand a particular language I can just ignore the thread, or I can use Google translate if I really want to understand what's being said (not something you can do easily in a pub conversation)!
Stop being so defensive and feeling so threatened by it for pete's sake. They just want to have a conversation in their native tongue. Nobody's trying to stop you from speaking your native tongue. It's not some kind of threatening secret code. They're just shooting the sh*t about Tommy Peoples and Martin Hayes. Chill out.
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
The pub example is ofcourse spurious.
It has happened to me on several occasions however that I was carrying on a conversation with someone in English, until a third person joined the two others continued the conversation in Irish, or German, or French, or Polish.
That is extremely rude and inexcusable from my point of view. It's also something that I would never do myself. I would never carry on a conversation in a language some of the company couldn't understand, if there was a shared language available.
That's the situation we're talking about isn't it?
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
This reminds me of the night I attended my first committee meeting of the local CCE, not long after I moved over here to Co. Antrim, from Scotland.
During the meeting they outlined all the planned forthcoming activities, including music tuition, dancing & Irish language classes, then to round off they asked us all to attend each of these groups of classes to set a good example, because of course we all wanted to be good Irish people! .......... & of course, that was the last meeting I attended!
I'm afraid I have absolutely no truck with any form of Nationalism or Patriotism & hate with a vengeance when those that do, try to hijack & use the language or the music to promote any of that old nonsense!
Born & reared in Scotland as I was, I have often seen Scots Gaelic, aye and the Scots dialect too, being used by total eejits {imho} in a boorish attempt to belittle those in the company who didn't have a grasp of it!
It was often clearly & openly used by these prats, in a sad attempt to try & demonstrate how they were somehow better & more worthy Scots, simply because they had gone to a few night classes & picked up a few phrases ... funny, if it wasn't so Sad!
I hated seeing that ignorant type of behaviour over there & I don't like seeing it over here either.
I play Irish Music, not because I want to be Irish, but simply because I like how it sounds & I enjoy playing it in the company of other enthusiasts .... end of story! NO! ... I don't need to learn how to Set Dance, or Irish Dance, or speak Irish or wear a silly Green costume on Paddy's Day, or get myself an Irish Passport!! ........ & to honest, I feel kind of sad for those that do get these urges, cause for me, the Music is enough!
I regularly play music with two very fluent Irish speakers & in the past 19 years of being in their company, I have never ever seen them USE their knowledge of, what is clearly a treasured skill for them, against others in their company in a rude or boorish way.
All that said, I don't know what all the fuss is about here. I had a wee look in here out of curiosity & couldn't believe the negative reaction!
I run a website/forum promoting Old Time Music throughout Europe & I actively encourage members to start groups & use their own language in those groups & on the Forum.
Let's face it, Irish Music has enthusiasts in many countries all over the World & I for one wouldn't mind seeing threads here in a number of different languages. Perhaps this one will trigger threads in a wide variety of different languages here, from now on. Wouldn't it be a nice way for us to encourage players in other countries to learn more about the music, even although they don't have a good grasp of English?
Now, if only Ulster Scots was really a language ........
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Má tá tú ag iarraidh 'Cén teanga ab fhearr leat?" cuir tús ar snaith nua. "An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?" -sin an teideal atá ar an snaith seo.
It is not impolite to use a language that you don't understand. It IS however impolite of you to expect everyone to switch to suit you, especially given the fact that this thread is clearly titled in Irish. Why do you and your ilk feel so threatened by people using a language other than English. Is everything measured exclusively by its utility? Or by its popularity? In that case maybe you should be playing Justin Beiber. You have the right mentality, I believe you could go far. It is depressing to think that you feel so insecure by the 'other' that you feel the need to stamp it out.
Yet again a thread started in Irish (the native language of the people, be the Scot or Irish, who started much of the beautiful music we profess to love) has been denigrated into a thread justifying the language being used to discuss something. It says more to me about the identity of the critics than it does about the few who attempt to take part in it. Your self-image must be a truly delicate thing. I love the English language. It is my language as much as it is yours gam, silver spear, greg etc. And forgive me if I seem a little conceited but I wager I am at least, if not more, articulate in this language than you are. To celebrate one language does not demand that you denigrate another, something many of you uninvited critics would do well to learn, especially considering the strength of English. English does not need little linguistic policemen like you defending it at every turn. Elevate yourselves, have faith in trust in yourselves and then maybe you won't be so weak as to feel threatened by a language that will never apologise for its survival.
To those who have good will for the language, speakers or not, those who appreciate the beauty of diversity and aren't chomping at the bit to become a carbon copy of their neighbour -fair play and a mighty 'hup!'
Go mo leithscéal as ag baint úsáid as Béarla ar an snaith seo, a Ghaeilgeoirí ach tuigeann sibh an meon atá agam!
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
I am not threatened by people who speak Irish. I do think it is boorish for anyone to exclude people in their company by deliberately speaking a language some of the company don't speak. That's quite a different thing.
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
And I think it is boorish of you to crash a conversation that was started in Irish, about a musical topic, to vent your opinion on an entirely unrelated matter.
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
It a subject that is running through a number of threads at the minute and I was directly responding to a post that was part of the conversation. You post a thread, they drift. It's the nature of internet forums, once you post things are out of your hands.
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Ptarmigan fair bit of axe grinding with CCE there mate.. Its a pity some people are so hostile to Irish culture, interesting that you go as far as to try and nullify its influence within your own playing and development. Pity.
Chavez and Mac Donn make some particularly good points. The speaking of Irish does not need to be justified. and no point has anyone created any sort of polarized arguments with political or socially exclusive conotations so I dont know WTF gam was waffling about Nationalism etc for. At the end of the day this is a site with a large variety of people from different cultural background. For those of you who have not grown up under the influence of Irish culture and found the music some other way. Chill out, sit back and enjoy those who maybe have. There is already common ground with the music FFS. The language is equally beautiful and its a tad disrespectful to simply "latch" onto to have a tear up on the mustard board about.. Point scoring and waffle
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
I don't have a problem with the Gaelic. I do think it makes the board hard to moderate if you're a non-Gaelic speaker. If Jeremy isn't fluent in Gaelic he may crack down if there's abuse or complaints, but that's up to him. I have no idea if he is or not.
To the OP: does it matter? I've never really got these "who is the bestest" kind of conversations because taste is such a personal thing. My most beloved player of music is my dad, not because of his skill but because I would rather listen to him play than anyone else. He made me love music and he made me a producer, not just a consumer, however poor.
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
In the case of the recent threads in Irish they seem to inevitably drift towards a defence of the medium of thos threads. This is something you have contributed to. You fail to see how there is a parallel with your previous argument about code-switching? You say you think it's boorish for people to exclude others by 'deliberately speaking a language some of the company don't speak' as if the whole purpose of them speaking the language is to exclude you. Do you have any idea how conceited that sounds. I couldn't, even with a mustering of my considerable energies, care less about your perceived offense in these situations. You must truly be a delicate flower. The simple equation is that if a language isn't spoken it dies. It seems to be monoglot English speakers who feel most threatened in these situations. Why is that? Does it not smack you as strange that many speakers of perhaps the most viable language in the world feel so vulnerable? I have spent the last 6 years working in Thailand, Korea and Brunei and have been involved in conversations that have began in English and switched to Thai, Korean, Malay, Hindi, Lao etc and never felt that I was being belittled despite the fact that all in the conversation could speak English.
Man I do get tired of those with the insensitive manners of bully -isn't that the definition of boorishness?
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Thats actually a good point about the site becoming hard to moderate.. from a purley practical point of view the only sensible suggestion against. Im the same, whislt I have my favourite musicans. The enjoyment of being in the company of loved ones playing the music by far exceeds what I get from listening to the "greats", thus agree that "who is the bestest" is totally relative.
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Well said, Mac Donn. It's amazing that people still come out with some of these comments, isn't it? You should give them the benefit of the doubt, though, and view it as coming from ignorance rather than genuine hatred or xenophobia or something like that. Unless they speak a minority language themselves, it's unlikely that they understand much about the relationship between language, identity and culture and instead view languages simply as tools for communication. From their point of view, they're just words that are translatable so why not just use English and make it easier for everyone? They don't realise that it's not just the WORDS you say but what you CHOOSE to say that's important.
The thing is, with these people, you're not going to convince them by belittling them back. It's counter-productive. You have to explain your logic to them clearly so that they can see it from your perspective.
I don't have a "best" musician. I have favourite musicians of course, but they change all the time depending on my mood. Like the poster above, I enjoy hearing my dad play and playing tunes with him. That's meaningful for me and very rewarding.
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
My first post was a bit snappy and I apologise for that. If people want to use Irish, whatever. But it does strike me as analagous to hanging out in he pub with a group of pals speaking language X and then someone comes over who speaks language Y. Several people in the group also speak language Y and they all start chattering away in that, while those who don't speak it are left out of the conversation. Obviously there' s nothing wrong with using language Y but it is a bit rude to do that.
I got snappy because it seemed to me that the OP was being deliberately provocative. Maybe he's not. Maybe he just wants to start threads in Irish. But after the last one turned into a bit of a row, you'd think there would be a bit of a learning curve.
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Miss, I spent the first 35 years of my life resisting any attempts to make me a Patriotic or Nationalistic Scot, so I was hardly going to be delighted at the prospect of anyone or any group, wishing to turn me into a wee Irishman.
I certainly don't hold any truck with anyone who says that because you love the music, then there must somehow be something wrong with you, if you don't automatically embrace every other aspect of Irish Culture.
The fact is, I've lived in Ireland, both North & South, for 25 years now, so if I didn't like the place, the people & the culture, I think it's fair to say I would have gone home a long time ago.
However, because I don't actively embrace other aspects of Irish Culture, it doesn't automatically follow that I am somehow hostile towards any of them.
That's like so much $hit that goes on up here in the North, e.g. if you are not for us, then of course you must be against us .... which is of course, utter Bo££ocks!
So I must say, I do resent the implication that because I don't have any desire to learn Irish, that somehow I am therefore automatically hostile towards it!
If you don't mind me saying so, it's that sort of attitude, from those who do speak the language, that give it & those others who have it, but have no desire to evangelise on it, a bad name. Just like your missguided assumption that I "try and nullify its influence within your {my} own playing and development."
I am quite comfortable with the few aspects of it, that I do come across, otherwise why would I, for example, be daily teaching youngsters tunes whose titles are in Irish.
I of course encourage the singing off & treat songs in Irish at any of our sessions up here, with the same respect as any in English.
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
But the OP wasn't just starting a conversation in their own language, they were asking the views of a subset of people selected on a basis that was controversial. Like going down to the pub on March 17th, asking for a vote but implying that only answers from people born in Ireland counted.
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Interesting point Dr. Dow, I agree. Language is a filter through which you relate to the world. It's much more than simply finding another way of saying 'table'. Likewise as languages become extinct so too does wisdoms, perspectives and knowledge that was embedded in that language. Anyone who has even a passing knowledge of the placenames in Ireland will appreciate that. In English the placenames are nothing more than nonsensical sounds but those same sounds in Irish can often accurately describe the topography of the land, a local legend or an historical event. There are medicinal plants used here in Borneo y the Dayak that western medicine doesn't even have a name for. Yes losing a language is more than just losing another way to say table.
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Yes, and people who are monolinguals or elite bilinguals don't get that. People who are bilingual with competence in a minority language generally do get it, or are subconsciously aware of it, but find it difficult to express their arguments clearly because the issue is complicated, being tied in with symbolism, national pride, other aspects of culture, individual and group identities, social networks, people's motivations and political agendas, people's attitudes and aspirations, money, power, and all the rest of it. It's easier just to dig your heels in and get defensive. Best just to try and explain and if it falls on deaf ears, feck it and do your own thing
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Incredible stuff here. If the session.org is like a pub and it has conversations going on and a few tunes in the corner The Prof considers me "boorish" and others consider me an arsehole and ill mannered for carrying on a conversation in Irish only wanting to converse at this particular time through Irish. The boorish ones are those who charged into this thread and stoped us conversing in in Irish, You remind me of the assholes who come into a session and say "Enough of this diddley sh*te..Play something we all know!". You are the very same type of people. Prof .. I am shocked.. Greg and Gam.. You expose your miserable limitations .
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
I think people do get it, Dow. Or rather, one can understand the concept of how ontological constructs are quite fundamentally tied to language, or not get it all, regardless of what they speak.
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Silver Spear .. You were the first to jump in here when you were contributing nothing to the post and call the poster an arsehole for writing in Irish. When we get posts (and we do) about Morris Dancing I stay out of it as its not my thing. Should you have stayed out of this thread which was about ones favouite musician? Would you like to apologize to the Op for your attack on him for postin in his native tongue on an Irish Traditional forum?
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Ba mhaith liomsa Eddie Clarke (orgán béil), Arty Mc Glynn (giotar) agus Paul Brady (giotar) a chur ar an liosta. Bhféidir nach uirlisí fíor-traidisiunta iad seo, ach is/ba seinnteoirí fíor-traidisiúnta iad an daoine seo.
I don't think using Irish here is any more rude than using it in a pub where not everyone present will understand but some will. And some will want to learn based on what they hear or read. I wish had the ability to make this entire post in Irish. I don't, but I've made the effort
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Dr Dow. I could ignore this ignorance and these attacks on a reasonably interesting thread and continue on in Irish. I wont though. I want these posters who have abused the OP and us that followed for conversing in Irish, while not interfering with anyone else , how sickening it is to be told that we are boorish and rude as we discuss Hayes and Peoples. Tuigim gan fadhb ar bith na facail atá ag usáid agat! Maith thú a Ghoogle!! Harmonic.. Eddie Clarke..Ar fheabhas!
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
B'fhearr liom an cheol a cholisteáil i gcomhtheacs beo de ghnáth, mar tá rud eigin iontach fisiciúl faoin cheol seo. Tarlíonn an draíocht nuair atá na daoine ag seinnim le chéile. Tá mé ag baint sult as ceol de chuid Phaddy Keenan ag an bhomáite agus beidh sé ag seinnim anseo ar an Bhorneo ar an Féile Cheoil an Domhanda i Mí Iúil an bhliain seo.
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
My hands are still sore from having to learn Irish at school. I'm afraid to me the Irish language conjures up poverty, abuse and emigration. Having said that, I would dearly love to have a fluency in the language, if only to understand the names of some of the tunes that I play.
I was once asked to a play a hornpipe for an old Irishman in a pub in London. Following a few attempts at dancing the hornpipe he was still not happy with my playing and in all sincerity he asked me if I could play the tune in Irish. ?????
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
I think it is the "wisdom and perspective" part of Mac Donn's post that can be hard to get and hard to be sure about having got. People who are fluent in English as a second language often phrase things in a way that hints at a different way of looking at things. I wonder if that is what gets lost in *insufficently* literal translations of poetry - or maybe retained by Googles quirky translations.
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
I apologised. I was out of line. But if you want to go on calling anyone who disagrees with you an "Irish language hater," that's your prerogative, dude.
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Anyone who comes on to an Irish Language thread dicussing musicians and calls the Irish language posters "boorish," Bad mannered" "arseholes" are hardly Irish Language lovers. Silver Spear.. I like your posting bigtime here and I appreciate you have rowed back on your initial post.
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
'The Prof considers me "boorish" and others consider me an arsehole and ill mannered for carrying on a conversation in Irish only wanting to converse at this particular time through Irish.'
No. That is not what I said at all. I made it very clear several times the situation I was talking about was that of an ongoing conversation with someone walking in changing the language of the conversation to one not shared by all taking part in that conversation. It's about being inclusive to all who are part of the conversation, something you have been known to go on about.
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
I still think it is a bit dubious to have discussions here, on an international message board, in a language most people don't speak. Maybe I'm wrong and it's not dubious at all. To me it's a way of being exclusive, of saying, "I only want to have a conversation with certain people." Would be the same if people were posting in Spanish. That doesn't make me "hate" the Irish language.
Maybe I'm wrong in reading the whole inclusivity/exclusivity thing into how this board should be.
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
These arguments about world view through language and words for medicinal plants that could be useful to the human race are often brought up in discussions like this. They're all valid, but unfortunately it's fairly easy for a naysayer to argue against them in a way that is convincing to people who are undecided. Bottom line is, Irish speakers shouldn't NEED to put forward defensive arguments. They have a right to maintain their language and cultural self-regulation. End of.
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
You compared that situation in the pub with people using Irish on this forum. Desperate sh*t and very surprised at you wanting to curtail anyones use of Irish.
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
'You compared that situation in the pub with people using Irish on this forum. Desperate sh*t and very surprised at you wanting to curtail anyones use of Irish.'
I am not sure you are addressing me of Dr Dow, who made the pub conversation argument. If it's myself you are talking to I would draw your attention to the fact I called the pub argument 'spurious' and made the point that was not what this argument is about.
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Cross post. OK, go back read what I said, which amounted to saying it is ridiculous to object to a group of people speaking in Irish when you're not part of that conversation.
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Bhuel dún do chlab ansin, ollamh.
Bhí ceol tradisiúnta ar m'intinn ar dtús harmonic miner ach tá an ceart agat, ní deireann an teidéal aon rud faoin stíl ceoil atá i gceist.
Anois tá mé ag baint a lán sult as an stíl giotar John Martyn agus an guth atá aige. I mo thuairimse níl an ceol sin ro-chasta ach tá binneas na fírinne ann ar aon nós!
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
"I am not threatened by people speaking Irish.I do think it is boorish to speak a language some in the company do not speak" This is what you came on this thread and said. It implies implicitly that you consider it boorish to post in Irish here.The thread was about your favouite musician.
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
One point that was raised in one of the above posts, was that some people regard posting in Irish on this board, or for that matter, speaking in Irish when there are others in the company who don't speak the language, as rude (where the Irish speakers are bilingual and fluent in English). It's for this very reason that languages like Irish and Scot's Gaelic are particularly threatened. The Welsh have got it right - and quite rightly ignore such things. Indeed, this is probably why the Welsh language is thriving today.
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
This is shocking. This whole thread.
Keep posting macdonn either language.
I can't believe some of the things people are saying.
It reminds me of when the world cup went to America and there was all the talk about getting rid of goalkeepers and making the goals bigger to cater for a worldwide audience.
...
'To me it's a way..... of saying, "I only want to have a conversation with certain people."....'
What the hell is wrong with that? It's not elitist. Some feckers on this website think they need to contribute on every thread. They don't. It's a good way of filtering off the numpties.
Tại sao người ta cần các dấu chấm để tìm hiểu các giai điệu truyền thống Ailen khi tất cả các bạn cần là để có điều chỉnh trong đầu của bạn, hoặc, trời cấm, một ghi âm. Và tại sao trống da dê có một vị trí trong truyền thống? Cuối cùng nếu có đưa tiền cho phiên, là nó thực sự là một buổi biểu diễn?
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
This is an Irish music discussion board. Most Irish musicians who live in Ireland and are from Ireland speak Irish (at least in my experience). I don't see a problem with having Irish language on an Irish music board! If anything it makes more sense than English.
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Bhuel now a Hugo. Béadh sé leadránach go leor má aontaíonn muid an tám go léir. Is maith liom Flynner anseo ach níl aithne dá laghad agam ar éinne anseo.. tusa ach an oiread.. Tá mé sásta go bhfuil sé mar sin anseo. Níos mó caic.. Is fuath liom an focal gaeilge "craic"!
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Ach ar ais go dtí an snáth féin - mholfainn nach féidir Martin Hayes a shárú ar an fhidil. Chuala mé le déanaí é sa Cheolaras Náisiúnta le ceolfhoireann RTE ag seinm le ceolfhoireann RTE ag a leithéad d'oíche cheoil níor chuala mé le fada. Mar a dúirt póstaire cheana ar an snáth seo, tá draíocht ar leith baint leis an ceol beo.
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
This thread is absolutely hilarious. A bit predictable, with the usual suspects making sure to misinterpret what people say as they always do. But at least it's polarising in a new and interesting way with several sound posters making strong (and apparently irreconcilable arguments) on either side.
I am currently learning two minority languages (see, that gives me "street cred" - while leaving me open to spurious attacks about my hatred for the irish language and general lack of knowledge about the subject) and I have to ask, what's the point?
1) On this particular website, where there are a vast number of opinionated people who are used to having an opinion about everything, there is absolutely no way you will be able to have a discussion in Irish without it turning into a discussion about whether it's right to have a discussion in Irish on the mustard board. Therefore, you either have to be naive, a complete idiot, or a windup merchant to start a thread in Irish. I'm all for the benefit of the doubt, but the OP is at best naive.
2) What are you trying to do? Beyond the idea of "it's a site about irish music, what is more natural than to talk about it in Irish?" I find it difficult to believe you could do so without some kind of ulterior motive (unless of course, I assume complete naivety). And unless you make clear what your motive is (and even if you do), you're letting yourself wide open for other people to interpret your motives.
- promoting the irish language? Fair enough, but sending people to a crap service like google translate, as opposed to providing your own translation is hardly going to convince people that another language is more than just substituting in different words.
- deliberately excluding non-irish-speaking people from the conversation? Yes, there's google translate, but it's extra effort, particularly if there actually was a meaningful conversation happening in irish - at which point google translate would not be able to provide more than a meaningless jumble of words. How else can this exclusion be taken than "You posers on the mustard board aren't Irish, most of you can't even play, so I'm just going to talk to the "real" irish people".
- sending a message to non-irish speaking people. Err... thanks, I already know I don't speak Irish (or welsh, spanish, japanese, breton, occitan, swedish and all the other languages I want to learn/become a better speaker of some day). I don't need "shaming" into learning Irish, thanks.
Bottom line, posting in Irish on the mustard board without providing a translation is passive-aggressive bullsh*t - or extreme naivety.
Of course, in an ideal world, the irish speaking people could have their conversation and the rest of us ignorant feckers would just ignore it (and, for my part, I would be very happy to see it). It's like those posts that say "I want to discuss learning from the dots and I'm not interested in opinions that it's a bad idea", just not going to happen...
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
If I were to negotiate a Japanese or Hindi website, I would not object it I found the posts in a language I didn't understand. However, the home page of this website is in English, to become a member you must use English, and the rules and FAQs are in English. assuming, then that the OP speaks some English, he could easily have opened with something like, 'English is my second language, so...' and no-one would have objected. There have been posts in the past by non-natives, the replies to which have been (almost) in their own language. It is apparent in this case, though, that the OPs intention is to stir up trouble.
The pub analogy is a bad one. I used to be a publican, and for a few years I had a couple of dozen Libyan students as regulars. I knew how hard it was for them to speak English all the time, especially after studying all day in a language not their own, and consuming vast quantities of alcohol. I had no objection to their speaking arabic, and to the few regulars who said anything to me about it, I explained that they weren't being offensive. Deliberately excluding others WHO ARE IN YOUR COMPANY, however, can never be excused. I use capitals this time so as not to be misrepresented. I have no objection to anyone speaking in whatever language he or she chooses; but the common rules of decency apply. And for those who assume that I am English, I am not. And I speak more than one language.
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
"just not going to happen" Timo are you so sure? Unless Jeremy expressly forbids the use of the Irish Language here we can post in Irish the rare time we might wish and completely ignore you and others like you . It is a bit weird that you would find it so horrible this terrible conversation about Martin Hayes as you sit at your laptop in Switzerland. Lets stop these bad guys speaking Irish!
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Bhí muid ag plé an difir idir ceol taifeadta agus ceol beo, is cuimhin liom blianta ó shin in amharclann beag in Iúr Cinn Trá ag amharc ar Steve Cooney ag seinnim ceoil ar an ghiotar -gan brógaí. Bhí sé go hiontach. Silim go raibh Paidrigín Ní hÚallacháin ag canadh an oíche ceanna -níl suim mór agam ins a stíl féin agus níor éist nóta ar bith óna cuid ceoil ó shin amach ach, ar an oíche sin, san amharclann beag áítiúl sin -bhí draoícht crúthaithe san aer.
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Oh of course, you can plow straight through the naysayers and just talk in Irish if you wish. More power to you. And I really am fine with that.
(although given the amazing quality of the current Irish portion of the discussion I'm a bit sorry to be missing out. A fascinatingly nuanced exchange of opinions of the great masters of Irish music, to be sure)
Of course the fact that I'm in Switzerland (currently not actually, but neither France nor the USA is better I suppose) makes me a second class citizen in the online irish music world. I can go on pretending all I like, but I will never play as well as a true Irish-speaking Irish person.
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Ní raibh ar intinn agam ach comhrá a bheith as gaeilge. . .is docha go bhfuil me óg, agus dá bharr sin nílim ciniciúil. . .an chreideann aon duine go raibh sé ar intinn agam cúpla cómhrá a chur suas anseo, gan aon saghas sprioc nó ghleadhartha. . .chreidim gur theanga í le láidreacht de saghas áirithe, agus bhí mé ag iarradh í a úsáid go poiblí. . .
Muna bhfuil suim ag daoine áirithe sa teanga, níl aon fadbh agam le sin, ach ná bí ag tabhairt amach domsa faoi. Ná bí drochbhéasach faoi. Ná bí ag iarraidh mise a chuir síos go pearsanta, ó ba rud é gur chuir mé comhrá isteach sa suíomh seo as Gaeilge.
Ar ábhar an comhrá, ceapaimse féin gur imreoir iontach tallanach é Brian Finnegan, ar thaobh an fheadóg stáin. . .
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Timo .. it was your ignorance towards those posting here in Irish I was attacking as you sit wherever you sit not your ability to play the music. You only have two shoulders and lots of chips.
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
There's a nuance to Tirno's argument I am not sure you're getting, Tab.
He (and I) have no objections to people using Irish. It's a fantastic language. Our objections are to people using it passively aggressively as a semantic weapon, to allude certain opinions about people who play this music and who post on thesession.org. Surely you must dislike seeing the language you love misused in such a fashion!
I could be completely wrong about the OP's ulterior motives. In which case I'll leave you to happily discuss anything you want in Irish or any other language.
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Fair enough, Fluther. I'm probably too young to be a cynic anyway.
I always found interesting that people will put down Brian Finnegan for his "non-traditional" style, while he says in an interview that that's how he learnt to play, from the oldtimers in his community. It's certainly challenging to assumptions. Regardless, I find his playing in a lot of circumstances a bit too repetitive and predictable in its syncopations and its noodling around eminor and f#whatever the f* that mode is.
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
I just plugged fluther's last post into Google translate (is that what you want people to do?) and yeah, fair enough. But it came in on the back of discussions about how you can never really understand the music unless you speak the language and so on, which was why I assumed a cynical motive.
Are there many instances, in our archives, of discussions using primarily Irish language on the board ...
?
& are any of those worth reading?
I don't speak gaelige, but I do use the translator.
Cén fáth teastáil ó dhaoine a dhéanann na poncanna a fhoghlaim foinn traidisiúnta na hÉireann nuair a bhíonn go léir is gá duit a tune i do cheann, nó, dia forbidden, ar thaifead. Agus é sin an fáth ar chraiceann gabhair druma sa suíomh traidisiúnta? Mar fhocal scoir, más féidir leat airgead a thabhairt do na seisiún, tá sé i ndáiríre a thaispeáint?
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Thanks Macruiskeen. My view that anything vaguely poetic is best not translated is re-inforced. Nice though it is it looks like it would be best said in Irish.
Fidkid - "worldy[sic] wealth" is Google-english we could do without.
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
By my smug estimate this discussion is now only up to its knees in it (as eloquently depicted below, by Señor Goya) but with effort could sink further:
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Well, well, bless my merkin, such erudition, and there's me thinking that the mustard pages were about a common appreciation of ITM.
Still, he who hebetates is last so I must away before the linguists begin to formicate.
P.S. Dick, I like your postings.
Sam.
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Having read through that lot and thrown my hat in earlier with the 'ignorant outsiders', I want to reiterate that my view, too, is nothing whatsoever against Irish, but just about common courtesy.
The agenda for this and any website is set by the default language it was constructed in. Apart from the deliberate exclusion, the possibility of aroused suspicions (not justified I hope), you have effectively prevented some of us learning from your great wisdom. Fair enough, but another day we may well end up getting criticised for our cultural ignorance.
I too am all for the use of minority languages, but sometimes ill-considered use can do more harm than good.
For the record, regarding the supposed laziness of non-Irish speakers, I speak three other languages other than my own, one well and two badly...
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Ian. I think it would be common courtesy to let people chat away however they want and not be so paranoid that we are discussing bad stuff about those that dont speak the language. Relax a little. It might only happen one in 300 threads. i hope it happens more. Like I said i dont get involved in the Morris Dancing threads because its not for me so maybe you shouldnt be killing yourself trying to get on the Irish language. I sincerely hope that from time to time fluthier and Mac donn and others post in Irish. Its strange having to fight so we can speak Irish on a trad music site sometimes. Maybe the day might come when we could be chatting away in Irish at a real session and someone will but in and tell us we are being "deliberately exclusive". If it happens I will say the same as I say here.. I will never apologize for speaking this lovely language.
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Agree with tab. That's why I have not contributed to this thread thus far. People *have* chatted away in Irish at a session I recently used to attend (though the fluency of one of them was questionable, but no matter.)
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Really, it's a shame to see English written and spoken to the exclusion of so many other languages. I am thoroughly shocked by the reactions here of the folks who think the use of any other language is offensive. Maybe they should quit using Irish words, such as "whiskey" for one.....
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
tab, I'm not saying I'm not relaxed about the practice. I was simply pointing out that it *could* be misconstrued. It is akin to talking in a group of three, while steadfastly ignoring one of the other two people. Some (many?) people would see that as rude too.
Personally I find it annoying not to be able to understand, but no more.And I certainly don't disagree about it being a beautiful language.
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
p.s. I spend quite a lot of time in multilingual situations, and the accepted norm is to settle on the language spoken by all, or the majority. Regrettably, too often that is English.
I have often seen it done where one person leaves a situation and the language immediatley shifts to something else that the remainder also understand - or even a cocktail of several.
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Ian , you are either for posting in Irish being pursued or you are against. Its one or the other and it sounds like you are against it beacause you said timo and ss have it right. I think they are dismissing some great fun and they have it totally wrong and therefore so do you.
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
big_tab. The Morris Dancing analogy is stupid. The OP was about something that interests most people on the board, it listed musicians from outside the group to who it was addressed (implicitly by use of language) and (assuming Google has it right) it canvassed views ( a vote ? a poll ?) on the subject from an exclusive group of people.
I may have been wrong in interpreting it that way, but that it did not come over as the start of a friendly discussion in shared language, it came over as deliberatly provocative.
And for the record, I am strongly in favour of appropriate positive discimination in favour of languages that are in danger (e.g. they can spend some of my taxes on it) and find it sad that a lot of parents and children do not realise that they are letting something important slip away.
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
What is this "translator" that has been mentioned here by some people? On my Google Chrome browser I have a little icon that says "translate this page". I clicked on it and nothing happened. I then highlighted one of the posts in Irish and clicked on the icon. Again, nothing happened. Am I using the right application or is it something else I need to do? And what about people who don't use the Google browser which isn't, yet, the most widely supported browser (or even the best)..
Some years ago on this website an OP (who apparently did not have English) posted in a non-English language. Someone else replied in that language, but, for the benefit of the large majority who were not able to understand what was going on, he kindly provided not only an English translation of his response but a useful summary, also in English, of the OP's post. That was good manners, there was no bad feeling, and the discussion was able to continue with contributions by some of said large majority.
It is also worth pointing out that not all the 70K-plus members here are necessarily in a position ever to be able to learn Irish, let alone all the other readers who are not members and who may wonder at some the things that have been said in this discussion.
For the record I can, with a struggle, usually make some sort of sense of French, Dutch, and the easier Classical Latin and Greek texts, but adding to that list at my age is a step too far.
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
big_tab. I said I may have misunderstood. I think that will become clear one way or the other in time. It was a mixed language discussion by the time I joined it and I think several people were being unreasonable. I don't care what language people post in, I will not pay any attention if it is a language I don't understand.
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
David, many thanks for that link. It has solved the problem and I now know what the first couple of posts are about.
I've put a shortcut to Google Translate on my desktop.
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
I read every English post above and, without regret skipped, the Irish. Seeking to arouse myself from the stupor I fell into, I went to the translator suggested above and entered the first post. I translated it into Japanese and then the Japanese translation into English. Delighted at the outcome, I tried the same with other languages. The last sentence was translated severally:
"Voting is how I thought it would be in place, I suppose, be careful."
"Voice, but I think I should be I do not know how to make the bed."
"Vote to be taken, I think, but do not know how I would put in place."
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
I can't believe that people are having a go at someone for posting in Gaelic. No it's not rude in the slightest. Starting a new thread in Gaelic (or for that matter any other language) is not analagous to butting into a conversation and changing the language used (that would in fact be butting into a thread in Gaelic to speak in english). I'm appalled at some of the attitudes displayed by people that I like and respect, I thought that the "speak English like a gentleman" attitude had long died.
Apart from the fact that I think Gaelic (and other languages elsewhere in the world) should be supported against the cultural steamrollers of the economically dominant languages, I don't care if anyone chooses to _start_ a thread in any language be it Gaelic, French, Italian, Hindu or Chinese. Sure there wil be a bigger response if the thread is posted in English but there are doubtless occasions when the subject matter would be more appropriate to another language e.g. a thread about gaelic (which doesn't seem OT in the slightest to me) or where a poster has poor English but wants to find potential contacts or information about Irish music in their own homeland or community.
I think the responses in this thread have set a new low for this forum. Sure there has been some excruciating rudeness and intoleration expressed in many past threads: but to stamp on a thread posted in Gaelic? I don't visit this site as often as I used too, and when I do I spend less time reading the discussions. This thread has made me significantly less inclined to spend time on the forum.
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
There are some very angry people here -
and I do not pretend to get it.
After contemplation, I do not find the use of Irish threatening or frustrating, really. I have not had the displeasure of having a culture thrust upon me unwilling since my school days, so I will express some sympathy for those who bear the scars of their experiences.
I, for one, have tried to move on, as many here have.
Good luck, all, on that.
If the thread is in Irish, or whatever else than english, I simply move on to the next thread and, if I was curious about it, I pray for online translation technology to jump ahead again so I can have it easily reduced to English.
I will liken it to a conversation about banjoes, about which I know little and would like to know more. I cannot really join in, can I?
Someone else will post here on the subject, sooner or later, in English, and then we can share.
Please note: I am NOT saying I "understand" any of this.
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
It seems that perfectly reasonable people can disagree about the boundaries of "netiquette" and utterly fail (and the failure is obviously mine as well) to discuss it in a reasonable way.
On that note, as sort of an instigator of the general unreasonableness, I'm gonna disappear from the boards for a wee while, Bye guys. It's been good fun for the last six years.
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
I'd echo big_tab's comment. I'd rather have TSS's insights than some of the drivel emanating regularly from a couple of the serial posters here and, especially, from the many aliases of that Ballydehob bollix.
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
I'm oh so offended by the audacity of a person using the Irish language on a website dedicated to the playing of (largely Irish) peasant music by us english speaking middle class t w a t s that I'm beside myself with indignation. My long "Irish looking sideburns" are frazzled and I'm ready to blow the stupid tweed cap right off me head! Me vest is disheveled and all my AOH buttons are popping right off me old jacket! Gaelige indeed! What's the middle class world of Irish music comming to! JCGMAFB (text speak for JESUSCHRISTGIVEMEAfeckINGBREAK)
HAPPY SAINT PATTY'S DAY!!!! smiles smiles smiles (how d'you make a smile with a gun to its head?)
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Silver Spear’s departure suggests to me that those who so easily dismissed her views, and those of others like her, did not realise the sincerity with which they were held. I well appreciate the desire of people to protect minority cultures – indeed we are *all* a minority culture on here by some definitions – but sometimes the rush for political correctness blinds people to reason, in the same way that it was argued that I *had* to fall on one side of this discussion or the other. In fact, I felt genuinely torn by it.
Out of curiosity, I have been soliciting the views of people I know regarding the language issue (in a non-contextualised sense). Of the 19 so far asked, 16 said they would consider it rude if someone chose a language, or changed language to one, that not all the participants could understand. More than half also said that they would at least be suspect that the reason was exclusion, if there was no other apparent motive. I askend this without reference to any specific langauge whatsoever.
I have also had issues on a group that I run, where certain individuals joined and then attempted to change the agenda from that stated on the group's home page. It was pointed out that they were at perfect liberty to form their own group with their own rules, but that if you join a club you cannot then, in effect, object to the rules. Regrettably, some of those concerned reacted in a similar way to the recent comments on here.
This is nothing to do with the Irish language and everything to do with courtesy and inclusiveness. Unfortunately, those who shouted us down failed (or chose not ) to make that essential distinction.
Personally, I strongly support the growth and use of minority languages in Britain, be they Scottish or Irish Gaelic, or indeed Welsh or Cornish. Diversity and self-determination is good! So long as it doesn't get in the way of *necessary* cohesion.
While there is no language-specific rule on this site, it *is* by default an English language site for the simple reason that it is most likely to reach out to the maximum number of people in this way.
I do understand the specific historic and/or cultural nerve that those comments may have touched, but when people get over-zealous about their causes, their extremeness tends to alienate some who might otherwise sympathise.
Given that even a large number of Irish people don’t speak Irish (I believe), further excluding those who actually have a genuine interest in Irish music and culture, but for one reason or another do not speak the language, seems pretty counter-productive to me.
But this would not be the first time when such an approach has done more harm than good to the cause being espoused. The intolerance here may not have been as one-sided as was made out during this thread.
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Ian, twice I have stated here that I admire Silver Spear and am sorry she has taken a break , Your efforts to make us feel some kind of guilt by being "politically correct" because some of us thought it might be nice to see an Irish language thread every now and then is silly. Proof.. It has happened since and didn't cause race riots or violence in the streets. It was nice to see it and I am grateful to those that suggested it and followed it through.
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
I would propose that everyone drink a big glass of water and breathe deeply into a paper bag, and maybe take a nap or something.
Someone posts in Irish and someone answers in Irish. I don't speak Irish. What harm is done to me? None at all. What's the big deal? None at all. Is there any reason for this to be an issue? No, not at all.
Now can we please get back to the pointless bickering?
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
No attempt to make any one feel guilty - simply suggest that there were two contradictory arguments at work, *neither* of which was inherently wrong.
However, I do think that the view of some minorities that, because of that status, they are entitled to iugnore the rules (such as netiquette) that pertain to everyone else - and to which they themselves hitherto objected - deeply undermines their case. Irish is a lovely language, and I respect the culture too - but that does not mean that it is appropriate to use it just anywhere.
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Tab, you might want to contemplate the difference between the meaning of
"I believe this idea is wrong"
and
"I believe this person is wrong"
I have no idea what the point of any of this nattering was meant to be about, or if there was any point or if there weren't as many points as disputants, the whole thing seemed exquisitely devoid of purpose, but what you just said there seems like the most dangerous idea going today, and one shared by the most ideological elements active in politics and religion.
Think about what you just said, and see if you really believe that someone holding an idea which conflicts with one of your own is "inherently wrong".
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
It is the inability to agree on an 'honorable draw' that so often makes a mountain out of a molehill and prolongs conflict. I will take the risk of pointing out that Ireland is a prime example of this!
My original post pointed out that personally, I could see both sides of the argument, and was torn between them, but apparently that was not a legitimate position. The inability to separate people from arguments has led to one esteemed member leaving. For the record, I believe TSS was arguing on the same platform.
On further reflection, I concluded that *in the context of this website* (and maybe ONLY there) the etiquette argument marginally has the edge over the cultural one. The same would apply to someone starting an English discussion in an identical way on an Irish language website. Many people whose views I have sought seemed to agree.
I was not expecting others to agree, but that does not make me inherently wrong, any more than it makes me inherently right. I tend to think the inabiity to accept compromise weakens the case of those concerned as it fails to accept the undeniable reality that people's views differ.
This issue has at no time made me angry in itself, or with other people - I am arguing a point of principle, though I still consider the OP to be discourteous.
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Just FYI, the thing you've been talking about where people switch to another language which is unexpected in that particular social situation (and might be considered inappropriate) is called "marked code-switching". Carol Myers-Scotton in the early 1990s said that this depended on certain "RO sets" (Rights and Obligations sets".
Then other linguists criticised her theory of why people choose to do a marked code-switch, saying that it relied too much on the linguist outsider's subjective assessment of the social situation and what is "appropriate" or "inappropriate".
Interesting that the discussion here is kinda tied in with that, but without the alienating terminology!
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
So basically I think what is happening here is that, because there's always been a culture of speaking English on this forum, both parties would probably agree that a switch to Irish must be a marked one. However, one group is saying "there's a reason why this is marked - we want everyone to be able to understand everyone else all the time!!... just as it has always been" while the other group is saying "ok it's marked, but it needn't be so on a forum - why can't we negotiate a situation where Irish can become unmarked on this forum.. and people who don't understand it can simply ignore it".
I think maybe if there had been more Irish speakers on thesession.org when it first started, and if those speakers had been vocal in Irish, a mini online culture might have developed where both Irish and English were unmarked choices for discussions. I see that more and more threads in Irish are appearing and people are no longer throwing their hands up in horror. Maybe this is a sign that we might see more of it in the future. It'll be interesting to see if its users stop posting in Irish when people stop reacting negatively. Then we might have more of an idea of people's motivation for using it in the first place...
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
1.Everyone is entitled to their opinion.
2.Everyone else is entitled to disagree with that opinion.
3.The problems seem to begin when there is not merely discretion expressed, but judgement of differing views.
If I ask someone's opinion or perspective and they disagree with me, fine. Else I should not have asked, unless I am only fishing for approval or support.
But should someone further pass judgement on my opinion as right or wrong, moral or immoral, polite or impolite?
So, have there been comments here that have been critical or judgemental, and have they been taken as attacks on a culture or a set of values?
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
I think that when one group objects to Irish as the marked choice, the other group reacts by saying that this objection stems from bigotry. In response, objectors are saying "actually we're not objecting to the language or culture itself (read: its use as the unmarked choice in other social situations such as a pub or home in the Gaeltacht), but rather to its use as the marked choice".
My take on it is that, in the case of receding languages like Irish, speakers have to force marked use of the language to claim back their right to use it in particular social situations. Internet forums are an obvious choice for this push on their part.
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
A few posts have been bilingual. But not many. Since many languages are used in the comments is there a practical solution to the use of gaeilge (& other languages) on this forum. I'm not sure ignoring a post is a viable option when members know it is possible to use the Google translator, no matter how inaccurate it may be.
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Look , If people hadn't jumped in and given out about the op using Irish this thread wouldnt have 8 responses. I argued for his right to post unhindered. Ian and others say he was being discourteous and I cant understand how he can think this. I find the only discourtesy shown was by those who changed the thread from the original question and gave out about somebody Irish posting in his/her native tongue. Anyway there are nice posts appearing in Irish since and its nice and absolutely no harm to anyone.And we are not talking about you.
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
It's a choice to read or not read a post. It's a choice to comment or not comment on a post. But an informed choice is different from simply ignoring something.
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
big_tab--maybe if you ignore them they'll go away....or they'll have trite little threads about how rude the "Irish speakers are". When you defend your use of the language (and you shouldn't have to) you just give them more to talk about. Just ignore them and they'll soon go away and realise how foolish they are.
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
One way or another I'm determined to read this thread. It's painful. (Cheers, The Silver Spear!) Such passionate feelings, from all. Many are determined not to be satisfied with the outcome. Which leaves me with only one option ~ Continue with living!
I don't think there is a best player of Irish dance music. Though, wanting for a choice, perhaps someone who is no longer alive. In which case it's the players I would most like to have heard in their own right. Willie Clancy, Seamus Ennis, Junior Crehan, Micho Russell ....
Bhealach amháin nó eile Tá mé meáite ar snáithe seo a léamh. It's painful. (Bheag, An Silver Spear!) mothúcháin paiseanta sin, ó gach. Tá go leor a chinneadh gan a bheith sásta leis an toradh. Rud a fhágann rogha agam ach amháin ~ Leanúint ar aghaidh le maireachtáil!
Ní dóigh liom go bhfuil imreoir is fearr den cheol rince na hÉireann. Cé, ar mian leo do rogha, b'fhéidir, ar dhuine a bhfuil a thuilleadh beo. Sa chás sin tá sé ar na páirtithe ba mhaith liom buíochas a chuala an chuid is mó as a gceart féin. Willie Clancy, Seamus Ennis, Junior Crehan, Micho Russell ....
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
And it's nothing to do with being PC or past language usage on thesession.org. It's got to do with the insecurity of being left out. There's a lot of insecurity on this forum. Much more insecurity than anger (if you follow the thread back someone mentioned the anger on the board...)
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
"Which leaves me with only one option ~ Continue with living!"
Don't tell me you're taking off, too? Come to think of it, that's an appealing idea. Maybe I'll take a break as well. I know some will find it a relief....
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Well, I for one am not feeling in the least insecure, and comments to that effect are so wide of the mark as to do no more than further diminish the arguments of those who make them, at least in my own mind.
I am not in the least bit worried whether the posts are actually about non-Irish speakers or not (why would they be?), likewise whether one can/should ignore posts or use translator (I have neither the time nor the inclination) – but that is to miss the point entirely. This is about the nature of the Mustard Board, not the status of the Irish language. On the other hand, it is quite an informative experience to be on the receiving end of linguistic discrimination, something that is not exactly an everyday experience for the average English speaker, I think!
By both inclination and deliberate intention, I always try to present in a balanced and courteous way, even to those with whom I disagree, and it is a shame that the response should be personal implications about my/our state of supposed insecurity. Those who can only see that this is about the insecurity/foolishness of non-Irish speakers should maybe examine *their own* insecurities. It’s a pity that a culture which in the past has legitimately fought against such treatment should choose to use precisely the same tactic when it suits...
Dow, interesting theory you are referring to there, and completely relevant IMO. The criticism of it also seems perfectly reasonable. I think your analysis is also correct – the problem here is not the language per se, but the way in which the issue arose. From what I can see the originator of the OP has only a short record on here, and therefore I think it is reasonable to wonder what the motive was for introducing Irish in such a precipitate and non-consensual way.
Had (s)he first seen fit to introduce a discussion on the merits of making the site bilingual, I think the response would have been entirely different, not least because it would have given people the opportunity to have a proper discussion, and it would have made it possible for the motives and issues to be clearly identified. At present, it looks too much like a political/cultural/trolling hijack. This is not to deny that there is a legitimate case for bilingualism.
The problem here is the imposition of this new situation, which has (or has the potential to) split one reasonably cohesive online community into two – those who belong to an inner circle and those who don’t. I'm not sure I want to belong to that type of community. It is *that* which I object to, and more so the manner in which it was done. I regularly talk to Spear off-list, and without wanting to put words into her mouth, I think that was her objection, too.
At the end of the day, the decision is for one person only – Jeremy – whose views we don’t yet know. If he agreed to bilingual status, then I think no one would have cause to argue, though I still think it would change the feel of the Mustard Board forever. I for one have lost some sense of the ‘community’ to which I thought I was beginning to belong, and which is quite important to those of us at a geographical remove. Into the bargain, a degree of solidarity with those who champion the Irish language has now been lost, so that is counter-productive. Dow, the use of force has to some extent *lost* them support from this quarter.
In the meantime, we can only guess at the motives for those who have suddenly started making new posts in Irish. While I defend the right of anyone to use their own language *in an appropriate situation*, at present, this feels to be nothing more than a deliberate provocation – otherwise why didn’t it happen sooner?
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Sense of community, virtual or otherwise, depends on shared consciousness. How can one be conscious of something one doesn't understand?
It's marginal on here, but it still has an effect. What's more, you have completely failed, or chosen not, to take in the actual content of my previous post. That says a lot, and you are diluting what sympathy I had for your view by the minute - not that I expect you will be bothered. Talk about shooting your own Cause in the foot!
Tab, I don't know who you are or where you live, as you say nothing about yourself - but try looking at it from the perspective of a non-Irish speaker. After all, the Irish abroad have historically more than understood the value of SHARED culture when living at a distance from the actual thing. Intolerance can flow in ALL directions.
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
I begin to appreciate Spear's decision. If it weren't for the fact that there are people on here whose conversation I value, and my refusal to be thrown off by people whose only response to reasoned discussion seems to be mud-slinging, I might just have followed suit.
Big Tab, many thanks for your welcome and support for *my* attempt to contribute to global-Irish musical culture.
I hope that you and Fluther are feeling pleased with yourselves.
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Just because you think your discussion is reasoned and mine isn't doesn't mean you are right. You can post anything you want . Please allow others the same right.
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
I'm not denying anyone the right to say anything whatsoever - I just think there are issues around HOW it is said. You are in favour of denying people the right to understand. You also seem to be in favour of denying people the right to a democratic decision about this.
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
The representatives who would be allowed to make this democratic decison should be Irish speakers and English speakers in equal numbers then, to make it fair, no? I'd be interested to see who would win the vote!
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
big_tab - its the last line of the fluther's original post - I meant that I hoped Google had not let me astray on the meaning. Your turn...
The BBC World Service used to do the news in "Special English" (I think that's what they called it). Less idiomatic for people who did not have it as a first tongue. Maybe you folks should do the same for Google's benefit.
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
I really find it very curious that people who would be so interested in this music, would have no interest in knowing more about the culture around it, like language. I find that pretty sad really, it's like doing a clinical excision of one part of a culture and using that for whatever purpose that might serve. Sounds a bit cold, clinical and materialistic. There are so many more dimensions to listening to this music as part of its native culture. I'm really glad I found that part of it, not just the technicalities, and it's probably the reason that I go to Ireland periodically to listen to it and be part of the geography that it comes from.
(Google mightn't have done a good job on the above...so English it is.)
I wonder whether the same criticisms would be made about people posting here in other languages. I doubt it. It seems to me that there is some imperative about these arguments, that if you know English you have to use it; whereas if you can't (speak English), you have some sympathy from the English speakers. Abhorrent.
Play on!
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Before pressing on with the same line of argument, I wish people would actually bother to ingest that which I was saying previously. There is NO QUARREL with the Irish language nor those who speak it - it is simply an issue to do with the nature of this message board, and your failure to deal with that point suggests to me that you have no answer to it.
Skull, my appreciation of this music is purely aesthetic, and I would like it no matter where it came from; its Irishness is important to me but not pivotally so. And yes, I would have the same views no matter what the language concerned was: in the absence of any other guidelines, by precedent and by implication on its home page, this is an English language forum. (Before I am accused of linguistic imperialism, let me remind that I speak three other languages variously well, and some of my closest personal friendships cross national and language frontiers within Europe. I have my personal linguistic hands more than full with that as it is).
I would object equally to English postings on an Irish language board, despite the fact that, on reflection, the situations would not be direct parallels. So far as I know there is no one in Ireland who does not speak good English, and therefore English speakers do not exclude Irish speakers in the manner that happens the other way round when Irish is spoken. That is self-evident.
But I do object to the unilateral manner in which some contributors have decided to exclude the rest from certain portions of the discussion, and by extension, the shared experience of belonging here. I find this inconsiderate and divisive to say the least. Likewise the implication that the answer is to learn Irish. If it continues, it risks changing the nature of the Mustard Board profoundly, possibly against the will of the majority.
I see no reason why I should have any less expectation of being able to access all discussions that I choose on this board than anyone else; to claim otherwise is blatant discrimination. This is not to deny the right of people to speak Irish - just to say that IMO this IS NOT THE PLACE FOR IT. The subject matter of the forum is immaterial.
This is not a matter of personal choosing on the part of non Irish speakers: it has been forced by those with an agenda who started this issue rolling. As I said earlier, the irony of that is not lost on me, and frankly, if that is the way speakers of minority languages feel they need to behave, then it doesn't surprise me in the least when they meet indifference or hostility in the wider world. Their languages need to exist on equal terms with all others - and that includes accepting situations when they are inappropriate, otherwise it looks suspiciously like dog-in-the-manger. There are limits to how far a 'special case' can be made to stretch.
However, in the absence of guidance from Jeremy, I would like to suggest an informal protocol that I think would at least defuse the issue and accommodate both views:
If this site is to continue to be bi (or multi) lingual, then:
1) Individual threads should continue in the language in which they were originated, i.e. should be monolingual within themselves.
2) Given that the default for the site is in English, original posts in other languages should contain an English translation of the subject matter, such that others can judge whether they wish to go to the trouble of translating. This would then at least permit all-comers to be aware what was being discussed, even if they weren't able actually to take part.
I can see why the Irish speakers think a vote would not be 'fair', though quite why it wouldn't I don't know: if most people were to vote to continue in English only, that surely says something, and I can't for the life of me see why it would be invalid - or are some people's votes worth less than others'? If the vote went in favour of multi-lingualism, then I for one would have no further objection.
But perhaps a voluntary code of conduct would stand a better chance of working.
I am afraid that I have found this to be a salutory lesson in what it is like to deal with people who refuse to see the other's side - again the specific irony is not lost on me. Earlier today I earnestly tried to encourage a consensual resolution to this matter - and I am trying again now. The fact that people from some quarters refused to see the other side of the argument and have just slung mud in return, speaks volumes.
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
The resolution here is:
to accept that the "majority" doesn't govern this site,
to tolerate diversity, and
to learn the language governing conversations into which you want to insert yourself.
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Ben.. My purpose is the same as yours. To freely discuss music here and join in those threads that interest me. Ian is trying to stop people doing that and I have spent two days trying to say what the guy/girl with the arabic looking name has said so succintly and brilliantly.
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Ben, categorically not.
I have made my desire plain - to try to resolve an intractable issue. I am still not sure whether the OP was a troll or not, though they have been conspicuously absent from the rest of the discussion.
I took little part in this, until it seemed to me that a perfectly reasonable argument being made by people whose views I respect was being ignored, as indeed they still are. To some extent I agree with those views, though I also sympathise with the pro-Gaelic side as well, in as much as I can understand the sensitivities that minority languages engender.
It is the regrettable failure of the pro-Gaelic side even to concede other people's differing opinions that does incense me. Even then I have tried to propose a reasonable compromise, only for it to be categorically rejected. I certainly do not see this as a game of chess.
So much for the tolerance that was being preached at me.
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
>> To freely discuss music here and join in those threads that interest me
In order for that to be possible *on an equal footing* for all on this forum, there has to be a common language. It is not ME seeking to restrict free discussion.
Or have we now decided that despite all the assurances that Irish music is now an equal-access global commodity that some of us are indeed to be second-class citizens? Irish music may be a global export, but the Irish langauge is not.
But why kiss and make up when you can prolong a good spat?
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
I have just done what I vowed not to do and press the translate button on the OP. The question was so bland I am all the more of the opinion that its main purpose was indeed to stir up the linguistic hot-house.
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Ian, I agree that sort of question is far beyond redundant on this forum. In fairness, the board isn't fair, & there are no votes. Just our opinions & the final vote of the one.
However, there are some Irish speakers on the forum who have posted some comments on the board, in gaeilie, which I would like to know what is being said. The google translator is a poor substitute for understanding what some means when using their native language.
Having said that, there have also been a few comments posted in gaeilge which seem to be from those recently learning the language. So, I appreciate when some of these are bilingual ~ giving both the gaeilige as well as the english. That may be a compromise for some. Though, for me it helps in my understanding of the meaning of what others say.
Cheers,
Ben
p.s.
Minor excursion here. I looked up Nepali Proverbs, chose one, & inserted in the Google translator to see the Hindi text;
मौका आता है, लेकिन अभी भी ताजा है ना
"Opportunity comes but does not linger"
How does it look अनिच्चा?
I will do my best to type this one word with correct spelling
gaeilge
Is this the correct spelling for the language otherwise known as irish? Is it capitalised when written in Gaeilge? Is it capitalised when written in English (english?)?
I actually attempted to answer the original question earlier in the post. For one of those musicians I wish to correct my spelling of his name. Should have been ~ Séamus Ennis.
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
I know the pub analogy has its problems, but in a pub there are some conversations that clearly open to everyone in earshot and some that are few people discussing something that is audible to all but they are engaging in it in a way that at the very least requires a newcomer to hang back for a while to be sure they can join in without spoiling things. There are also genuinly private conversations that it is rude even listen to but they are not relevant to the anology.
The way the recent comments page works here one can be drawn to a discussion part way through. I still think it requires one to then assess the appropriatness of joining in. Also some peoples posts are suffiently distinctive for us to know who is 'speaking' from the couple of lines in the recent comments page. All the more reason to check the context before joining in.
I don't care what language people post in. Using another language to be 'exclusive' won't work now because those who don't speak it can butt in on the basis of a machine translation that will probably be good enough to show the context. I think joining in without at least doing that is unfair to the OP.
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
I was going to add by means of general comment, one of my best friends is from Basel. He is an English teacher, and his wife and son also speak good English. While my wife and I both have some German, we don't have any Basler-Swiss-German, which in any case is very different, and they don't expect us to have - we just work in English. While we are both working at our German, it is very unlikely that Baslerdych will ever form part of our language capabilities, and without the current compromise, a good friendship simply would never have taken root.
On the other hand, nobody has any problems when the three of them are talking amongst themselves, even at the dinner table, if they use their native tongue. We trust them enough to know that they are not being rude - and they immediately switch back to English when the conversation again involves us or others who don't speak Swiss German. Even mid-conversation, when the audience changes, so does the language. I have even heard German Swiss and French Swiss conversing in English where it was the practical thing to do.
I think this is familiar to many people round the world who speak less-common languages, certainly most Scandinavians seem happy with it from what I can tell. This is what I mean by Irish taking its place on equal terms.
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
I have no wish to butt in on anyone else's discussion where I have nothing to add and/or don't know the context, and it isn't what I did here. I have no intention of trying to sabotage any Irish language threads.
I agree that bilingual posts remove the problem, but at a cost in time and effort to the poster.
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
When I mentioned bilingual posts I was thinking of only one post which I read this week. It was added by someone who is learning gaeilge. To me it seemed very respectful for everyone concerned. Potentially any learner will make mistakes. Since the gaeilge was that of a learner, the posting in english helps everyone in their understanding. That's a very wordy way of saying, in that instance a bilingual posted was spot on.
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Talking about your friends"if they use their native tongue. We trust them enough to know that they are not being rude" That's not insecure Ian? Hahahaha....
Ian, could you please write some more rules and protocals for standards of behavior here on Jeremy's website. You only gave us two and I think you can do much better. I would imagine a mind like yours could come up with at least 100 odd rules improving the site. . Maybe a two week suspension for a sentence in Gaelic, three weeks for a paragragh and an entire month for a topic post. That'd teach the bastards! But you work out the details and post it . And talk more about voting here on thesession.orgThat was pretty funny too!
And I thought this place was getting boring....
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
I'll also add this-my wife's family is Hispanic. Many of them are bilingual. It has never occured to me, in any setting, that they are talking about me when they converse in Spanish. You seem like a nice person but you are dead wrong on this. Let people have the joy of conversing in any language they choose. It does no harm to anyone and can only enrich. We aren't talking about politics or culture-just a silly website about playing jigs and reels.No big deal.
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Ditto shanty's last post.
Well, not quite. My wife's family isn't hispanic, but there's no reason to be paranoid just because other people are talking in a language you don't understand. Even if they're snickering and casting furtive glances....
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Shanty, there is much sense in your second post, only unfortunately diminished by the silliness of your first. When an argument descends to taking personal pot-shots at the opposition, then you can normally bet it is covering for a lack of better reasoning.
How else was I to explain the situation with my friend? Yes, I agree it comes across as a bit artificial, but you have my assurance that it is not. That was the whole point.
Neither am I attempting to lay down rules for the MB - I simply offered what seemed like a constructive solution to an issue that can clearly inflame. If it is not wanted, fair enough - though one can only wonder why. The current alternative scenario is hardly a balanced resolution...
As for being 'dead wrong', well maybe, but I am still waiting to hear a good reason why. Frankly, the whole issue is a storm in a teacup and I am really not that bothered if some people want to hive off and form a group within a group on occasions. From the content of the OP, we certainly won't be missing much anyway. But to deny that it WILL have an effect, or that others WILL disagree is plain idiocy.
I will repeat once again, FWIW, I have not the slightest objection to people conversing about anything whatsoever, in any language they choose, but that will not stop me from considering it rude and inconsiderate if they do it without the due regard for others that they claim so strongly for themselves. It is such self-indulgent righteousness that gets minority causes a bad name. That is what I objected to.
In this instance 'due regard for others' involves all of those who are now potentially excluded from parts of the MB in a way that AFAIK has never happened before. I have no idea whether that bothers the silent many or not, but whatever the rights or wrongs, if it continues or grows, then the resultant fragmentation WILL substantially alter the nature of this virtual community, in my opinion for the worse.
If people want to talk in Irish, there is nothing in this world to stop them from setting up as many of their own spaces as they want where they can do it, so the idea of my trying to stifle discussion is clearly rubbish. I'm flattered that you think I have that much influence! But to do it on here is to alter the implicit 'terms of engagement' unilaterally - and that, as a point of principle, is not democratic, consensual, nor fair. So I don't see why those who disagree should accept it.
The failure to face up to the practical implications, let alone acknowledge that it is even valid for people to disagree, further impoverishes the bilingual case. I am still waiting to hear any reason other than 'because we say so' why those of a different view should accept the bilingual case. That leads not to checkmate, but stalemate. Big Tab's analogy was another insight into the poverty of his actual argument - more about scoring points than arriving at a satisfactory solution.
I don't see the point in going round in circles on this. At the end of the day, there are far worse things happening in the world at present - but without considerate, reasoned discussion, a board like this will only ever be a place for bickering, that diminishes what ought to be a pleasurable pastime. Poly-lingualism WILL only fragment it. I can well understand why people no longer wish to participate under such terms - why would people want to particpate in something run on such arbitrary and divisive lines?
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Ian , You keep saying I am being intolerant and stuff. You would think it was me who came onto this thread trying to stop people posting in Irish and laying down a list of rules for us.
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Big Tab - what is so difficult about the concept that by switching langauge, you automatically take out anyone who, Google aside, cannot understand? Even if the will is there, learning Gaelige is not going to help those people in the short term.
What is so difficult about seeing that some people might not like having their hand forced in this way? Especially when we all know that it is perfectly possible for you to communicate in the shared language if you choose? If people *could not* speak English, then the situation would be entirely different.
Until you can stop reading what you want to see in my posts (as your last comment aptly shows) and start looking at what I am actually saying, we will get no further with this.
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
I f(ckin hate that "if people could not speak English" sh*te.Its the likes of that colonial attitude that we have had to put up with for hundreds of years. Let people post in Irish and just ignore it if it so painful for you.
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
This is Jeremy's forum and he's only going to allow discussions he can moderate. I don't think he has enough Irish to moderate a lot of threads conducted in it.
Maybe if somebody fluent in Irish volunteered to help out, following his guidelines, it might work.
Doesn't bother me to have messages I can't understand turning up in a thread.
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
My apologies Big Tab, that my last post might have sounded impatient. It was not meant to be.
I honestly understand why people might see what I am saying as intolerant. I am entirely sympathetic to the back-story of your last post. I can well see WHY people would see this as English colonialism, and I have had my suspicions that this was actually the real objection here all along.
"If people could not..." was simply to say that one can hardly blame people for not functioning in languages they don't know. Same would apply absolutely anywhere. It would change this situation fundamentally if there were non-English speakers present.
But I have tried hard to point out that that is not the case. Irish posts are not in the least painful to me - I FULLY SUPPORT the right of minority cultures to do things their own way - but that does not mean they have any more right to impinge on others than others do on them. To expect otherwise is to weaken their own case for equal treatment.
In all mature multi-lingual situations, where possible, the language is chosen to accommodate the intended audience. The only logical conclusion for doing otherwise is that those who cannot follow are no longer considered to be part of that audience. That might be a valid cause for objection. It is also undeniable that the lingua franca on this website IS English (or at least has been so far...)
Yes, I suppose it is intolerant, in a way, to deny people the right to use what language they want wherever they want - but it is MORE intolerant for those who have the choice of language to remove, on a whim, the right of access from those who for whatever reasons do not have that same choice. It is also intolerant to deny that other people might reasonably hold varying views on this, which has happened here by the refusal to engage with those views.
No one is denying the right of people to speak Irish, it is just that IMO, by insisting on doing it here is actually committing a greater intolerance.
I would not want to see you suspended.
Ian
p.s. I am no apologist for my country's colonial historical record, there is much to be ashamed of and not only in Ireland, but using it as baggage to deny others fair treatment in the present day is not very honourable either.
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Ian, I wish you wouldn't try and speak for all the non-Irish-speaking community here. I for one do not speak Irish, but I disagree with your views entirely. I don't think you realise how much you've been affected by political and cultural norms and commonly held (but misguided) beliefs that have imperialist roots. As long as people cling on to these beliefs and can't imagine a better and more tolerant world where biased, unfair norms can be challenged and changed to give everyone an equal voice, there's no hope for minority cultures and therefore ultimately no hope for the rest of us either
Big_tab, unfortunately these sorts of attitudes that you're having to deal with here are held by the majority of people -- and, crucially, that includes the Irish themselves. This is why I said that Irish is "doomed". People allow themselves to be blinkered and it's too much for Irish speakers to fight against imo. In the end, the dominant culture will most likely win unless things change drastically in the future. These language attitudes feed into a delicate vicious circle, which influences actual language choices on the ground, and which plays out down the generations, fragmenting the substance and structures of the language itself. Sheep follow the rest of the flock and do what seems best at the time. People have jobs to do and mouths to feed so they'll do whatever they need to do to get by and develop themselves in a material sense, even if it means abandoning their culture. The ridiculous sounding statements made by naysayers eventually become self-fulfilling prophecies. This may not be the case for you personally, but if a speaker is told often enough that they shouldn't be allowed to speak their language because it's not important enough, eventually they come to believe it as true. Then so do their friends... and their kids... and their kids' kids. It's sad, isn't it?
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Thanks Dr. I have come to realise here that we are not far apart in our view of the language situation. I am way more optimistic than you though. In Ireland now , although reviled by many, the language is pretty cool and fun to speak. Many of the mainstream tv broadcasters have come up through TG4 and are gaeilgeoirí and proud of it. I think if an someone who had emigrated from Ireland in the 60's was to come back they would be surprised how much of it is to be heard in mainstream life and how much more relaxed and fun it is.
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
I think that is right about how Irish language is seen as 'cool' now in Ireland (and elsewhere). I would not necessarily agree with the view that it is doomed. The Irish language (and others no doubt) have had such an affect on the perspective and personality of a culture, that those who are bought up in it, even it they speak another language will never cease to imagine where this cultural milieu comes from...and they know they have a native language which has given rise to it. There will be a significant proportion of people who will keep seeing that out. That's what is happening in Ireland, I think, more so in some parts than others no doubt, but that's the same as it has been for a long time.
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
>>be surprised how much of it is to be heard in mainstream life and how much more relaxed and fun it is
...which is surely as it should be. Gaelige is, after all, a recognised EU language, and the more Irish (and others) who speak it the better, IMO. But there are so many languages in the world that nobody can hope to speak them all.
>> I wish you wouldn't try and speak for all the non-Irish-speaking community here.
Dow, I don't purport to, though fair point, I can see that it might seem like that. We can but speak for ourselves, as indeed you are doing now. Surely that doesn't rule out observations about things that *might* be deemed to be points of principle, though? The way is always open for others to disagree.
We, all of us, can only speak from the perspective we have, while doing our best to understand or accept those who differ. It is the latter phrase that is the salient one, and should surely apply to us all. I don't think it has, here. I believe I have tried hard to balance the views of both sides here, each of which I have some sympathy with, but I still feel that one side has been misinterpreted (deliberately or otherwise) at every turn. That, to me, does not seem like a fair debate.
>>unfair norms can be challenged and changed to give everyone an equal voice
In principle, I couldn't agree more, but it depends on how you intepret that; for example, is positive discrimination (always/ever) justified? You can't simultaneoulsy argue for equality AND positive discrimination. Agreed, the one might perhaps eventually lead to the other, but it is a risky road to tread. And who is to arbitrate?
How is it 'giving everyone an equal voice' to choose a language that only some participants understand? That is irrespective of what the specific languages in any one situation actually are.
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Hordes of Gaeilgeoirí aren't going to be posting here. For the love of God you don't even find many trad musicians living in Ireland or in Irish communities posting here. Being blunt, thesession.org is good for looking up the odd tune and "seeing what the eejits have got up to" and there are at least three blogs/discussion boards over here that cover the trad scene with far more insight, nuance and craic.
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
the important difference is that using another language here in at this point in time is not actually exclusive with the ready availability of fairly good translate software at the press of a button (google translate). In the past, possibly it was a barrier to understanding, but that is not valid any longer in the software age.
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Are we saying that Gaelige speakers should be given special consideration here? What would happen our Indian, Swiss, Japanese, Polish and other members all insisted on the same opportunity? They are all linguistic minorities here.
Is the fact that the subject matter relates to Ireland at all relevant?
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
"In all mature multi-lingual situations, where possible, the language is chosen to accommodate the intended audience."
I don't get into that situation often, but the last time it happened, there were three first languages on the go. There were several 'side discussions' in each and, because of the distribution of technical skills and 'factional interests', some were and some were not between people sharing a first language. The purpose being to check on understanding of something or agree on a way of presenting an issue clearly. To reduce the risk of misunderstandings.
Make it four languages - body language was helpful (and increases my count to two). Not having that here causes problems amongst those with english as their first language. How about the rest of you ?
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
David, I fear I seemed to generalise too much in the way I worded that. Yes, it doesn't always work, especially where abilities fail. The most amazing experience I ever had was in the translation department of the International Olympic Committee in Lausanne (I had a friend who worked there). Daily conversation consisted of a mind-blowing cocktail of about five different languages, all of which were so thoroughly mixed that thay had in effect become one...
Nonetheless, it was done in the full knowledge that all of those involved were able to participate and therefore no one was excluded.
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
el gringo es paranoica
Is é an gringo paranoid
der Gringo ist paranoid
y gringo yn paranoid
Gringo là hoang tưởng
وغرينغو هو المذعور
грінго на параною
Goddamnit! that's fun!
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Cuir logh mo chuid scríbhneoireachta dona as gaeilge. Ach Gabhaim buíochas libh go léir as scríobh as gaeilge. Is teanga álainn, agus is cuid thábhachtach de an chultúr atá tugtha dom an ceol álainn. Nuair a scríobhann amháin as gaeilge, cuidíonn sé liom a thuiscint níos fearr. Ar an drochuair, ní chuireann sé cabhrú liom le fuaimniú. Ach beidh mé in ann an méid is féidir liom a fháil. Scríobh mé seo ag baint úsáide as Google-Gaeilge.
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Ian,The only point you've made is that you feel it's rude to post in Gaelic. You think it excludes non Irish speakers. You've written a lot but that's all you've said. Like so many people on this board you use lots of words to say a (very)little. The opposition isn't dismissing or ignoring your 'argument' -just saying we don't agree with you. To me the reaction by people has been beyond bizzarre. I've always had the impression that a lot of the people on here are stuffy upper middle class throw overs from academic classical music circles--each one a strange incarnation of a Diddley-playing Basil Fawltey. This thread proves, to me, that I'm not far off the mark!
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Lovely image of Diddley-playing Basil Fawlteys, shanty! I've suspected dyspepsia, gout, and maybe tooth ache have influenced or propelled some of the individuals who've posted in so many of the other discussions in the past too. (smiley face emoticon) My own problem would seem to be unhealthy concentrations of methyl mercury in my enviornment. (Would that I could have said that in Irish.) While we're at it, what's the Irish for hypertension do you suppose?
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Shanty, to be quite honest, this thread has almost exhausted any interest I have in being part of this board. No doubt that will be taken the wrong way too and I will be seen as a spoiler.
I feel some debt to people on here for helping me to get my personal musical life revived, and teaching me much. It is now doing well.
Yes, I have repeated myself ad nauseam here and I am as sick of it as anyone else. I only did it because the point was clearly not being understood, and people kept coming back with miscomprehensions. I suppose I should learn not to worry other people's bones quite so much, but to reduce what I have tried to say to "It's rude to post in Gaelic" is still nowhere near accurate.
I really don't see any point in rehearsing it yet again, it's all there anyway. I am bone weary of the whole thing myself and if people can't get my point now, they never will. Most probably don't want to anyway.Entirely fair enough.
We had a good sesison this evening. Right now I feel inclined just to go off and play the music that this is all meant to be about in my own way and my own circle and trouble people no longer.
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Ian, disagreeing with you does not mean that I don't understand your argument! It's not as complicated as you think. Imagine what would have happened had no one said 'boo' about a post in Irish. Four or five posts later it would have disappeared into the shadowy nether world of session.org past. Possibly it would have gone on for more posts had the reaction not turned it into this....and what harm would it have caused? Can you answer that? Of course the answer is 'none.' Any other and you are not being honest.
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
About five years ago, a friend and I set up a forum in another hobby area. It aimed to cater for a minority interest which was not being addressed by the two existing hobby groups. We carefully set up a homepage that clearly defined the group’s remit, and asked people to think before joining - and it eventually became quite influential within that hobby.
Membership grew, but a problem arose: despite our membership-by-application policy, more and more people joined who, while claiming to subscribe to the remit, on becoming members clearly had such different ideas about its scope as effectively to render it meaningless.
Eventually, the point arose when the newer members actually turned on the original ones and quite nastily attacked them for continuing discussions in precisely the way the group had originally been intended for, but which were subsequently labelled elitist (i.e. trying to aspire to technical and interpretational standards that not everyone was bothered about).
It was very difficult to stop this since they were numerous, and technically breaking no rules – but it led to the complete loss of the group’s identity, as it increasingly splintered into informal factions who disregarded the original remit - and each other's feelings - at will. Eventually most of the founder-members did in fact leave.
Today, the group still exists, but it is effectively moribund. There is no suggestion of deliberate destructiveness, simply that people believed that they were entitled unilaterally to interpret the ‘terms of membership’ precisely as they pleased, with no regard for anyone else, nor for its effect on the dynamic of the group. The fact that the majority already had two other groups where they were able to conduct their wider business, was not enough to prevent thoughtless indiscriminates destroying the minority group too.
This is not a watertight parallel to the recent issue here – but the consequences of small numbers taking it upon themselves unilaterally to alter the terms of a group can have unexpected consequences. All it took was something that drove a wedge down the middle of the community.
I would not like to see something similar happen to The Session. That is all I have been saying. Shanty, maybe I did over-estimate the risks; maybe I did get bogged down in *why* I thought the behaviour was unreasonable; maybe I just like being a drama queen.
But the foregoing was my real point. Nothing specifically to do with the Irish language at all.
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Big Tab. I am not going to go round all this yet again - but your ignorant, pig-headed refusal to give any credibility whatsoever to *anyone* who has a different viewpoint, tells me all I need to know. If you can really do no more than distort my words, it says a lot about the paucity of your own argument. Clearly, MY argument is simply beyond you.
Please do not reply. So far as I am concerned this thread is closed.
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Ian, I'm sorry I can't let it drop. It seems that yours and others (a few I'm surprised at) reaction was so off base it defies logic. Of course It provides me with a little (much needed) comic relief after slaving for the man 8-14 hours a day but it also teaches me about people. I've learned, here on thesession.org, a little bit about banjo's, a little bit about bodhrans, a little bit about Irish music, some stuff about modes and temperments but I've learned LOADS about people. I, again, ask that you just ponder what would've happened had everyone just shut up and let the few folks who did post in Irish to do so uninterupted by anyone else.
I wonder if you think that by your protest you have helped to save or preserve something which clearly exists only in your mind. Crusaders like that have been very dangerous in the course of human history.....please ponder this I'm now trying to help-not trying to be a dick(that was yesterday). What was your other website about? Could I have a link. I'm curious, based on your story and the subject of this debate....
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Dia ár sabháil,
Bhí mé ar mo laethanta saoire agus ní raibh mé ar líne ar feadh cupla seachtaine anois -agus tá an argoint seo ag dhul ar aghaidh go foill!!! Tá 'hard-on' ag an t-uasal stock don Ghaeilge, nach bhfuil?
Tá sé an-simplí -labhair an teanga agus maireann sí. Is cuma faoin na fathanna casta atá ag an cuid eile.
An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Cé hé an seinteoir ceol uirlise tradisiúnta is fearr, dar libh, fós sa saol inniu? Tá na ceadta imreoirí iontacha againn inniu, Tommy Peoples, na Shannons, Martin Hayes, Karen Tweed Banjo O'Connor, Brian Finnegan, Mike McGoldrick, Mícheál Ó'Suilleabháin, chun cúpla ainmeacha a chasadh amach anseo. Tuigim go bhfuil na scileanna go léir an-difriúil do gach uirlis, ach tá tuairim ag a lán duine faoin gceist seo, is docha.
Ba cheart votaí a thógaint, is docha, ach níl aon tuairim cén chaoi a chuirfinn é sin i bhfeidhm. . .
# Posted on March 9th 2011 by fluther
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Ní feidir liom an cheist seo a fhreagairt ar chor ar bith. Bíonn tuairim difriúl agam gach lá.
# Posted on March 9th 2011 by big_tab
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Do you just *like* starting fights? If there's a lengua franca for people on this board, whether their first language is English, Russian, Polish, French, Spanish, Italian, Chinese, etc., then it's only polite to use it. Otherwise, you just end up sounding like an arsehole. Sorry, but you do.
# Posted on March 9th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
the person who looks like the arsehole is the one complaining about the fact that she cannot speak anything but english.
why are you mad at irish and who told you that english is the official language of the session anyway?
# Posted on March 9th 2011 by currach
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
I agree with Silver Spear.
# Posted on March 9th 2011 by Greg the Piano Tuner
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
I dont. All the better if someone wants to post as Gaelige. If you dont understand then contribute to another thread that you do. I dont see why anyone should take the speaking of Irish on an Irish music forum as a personal slight. Saying someone sounds like an arsehole because of it is unacceptable.
# Posted on March 9th 2011 by Miss Mulligan
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
I would say discussions as Gaelige are totally in keeping with the ethos of Irish music and it use attributes a well needed bit of authenticity to the mustard board otherwise full of english folkies, yanks, pedants and wafflers. Bring back the Gael
# Posted on March 9th 2011 by Miss Mulligan
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Níor chuir mé post ar bith suas ansin ar feadh na bliaina anois agus tá mé iontach sásta snaith a fheicéail inár dteanga dhucais agus is cuma faoi na amadáin gan chiall nó múineadh orthu. Tá ár dteanga beo fós mar úsáideann daoine í agus scríos dearg ar na 'begrudgers', mar a dúirt Behan.
Maidir leis an cheist, tá sé doiligh í a fhreagairt mar silim go mbraitheann sé ar an fhonn atá orm ar an am. An bhfuil tuairim ar bith agat, a fluther?
Sleá Airgid:
It's 'lingua franca' and why didn't you use the 'common language', particularly in light if the fact that you mispelt the Italian and if you're so keen on English and that. Contrary to your opinion the world does not revolve around you and your preferences. There is no harm in staying out of a conversation that you don't understand. You don't need an opinion on everything. Impolite and arsehole indeed -you're almost right there.
Greg:
Thanks for sharing your truly important opinion on these matters on a thread that is about the most skilled musicians. I'll be sure to let you know my favourite curry recipe on the next thread you start on session etiquette.
# Posted on March 9th 2011 by Mac Donn
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
TSS, If people want to communicate in Irish, why don't you just let them communicate in Irish, in the context of a forum you'll probably have less people who have the capacity to respond and as a consequence less contribution normally means less value, but you need to leave that decision up to the intelligence of the person who posted the initial message, I think you missed a great opportunity to say nothing.
# Posted on March 9th 2011 by Theirlandais
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Silver Spear and Greg, you're both way off base here. I'm shocked at your insults.
Despite living in Montana USA and not doing as much as I should to learn more Irish, I can read and understand some of the posts here as Gaelige. Nil moran Gaeilge agam. I appreciate the chance to improve my meager skills. If you're truly interested in this music, you can't separate it from the culture and the language.
It is *absolutely* fitting on any site about ceol rince na heireann to post as Gaelige. To suggest otherwise completely misses the point of immersing yourself in the music. Is fearr Gaeilge briste, na Bearla cliste.
fluther, big_tab, and Mac Donn: Go raibh maith agaibh!
# Posted on March 9th 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
I wont embarass myself by posting as Gaelige, I would be here all day typin the feckin thing. Just to add to Harmons point and on a more positive note. Maybe just like potential Irish musicians hear Irish music for the first time and think "thats for me".. Posts in Irish (on an Irish musical forum) may have the same effect and awaken a passion and interest for someone..
www.tg4.com
# Posted on March 9th 2011 by Miss Mulligan
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
makes me want to dust off the wee green "Progress in Irish" off the shelf anyway.
# Posted on March 9th 2011 by Miss Mulligan
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Silim go bhfuil an buncheist chomh doiligh mar atá sé, mar seinnim an ceol seo níos mo na éistím leis. Tá furasta go leor ainm a chur ar mo chuid ceoltóra is fearr i gceol Rác, nó na Gorma nó Snagcheol mar éistím leis an ceol sin níos minice na seinnim é. 'dtuigeann tú mé?
Maith sibh a chairde, tá dearcadh dearfach agaibhse!
Ceol agus teanga na hÉireann abú!
Agus is maith é an leabhar sin 'Progress in Irish'
# Posted on March 9th 2011 by Mac Donn
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Reiterating my posts on an earlier thread, I think it's a good thing and welcome it. Beautiful language...
# Posted on March 9th 2011 by Dr. Dow
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
In response to the question in the post... I didn't fully understand it. Do you mean "best" or "your favourite"?
# Posted on March 9th 2011 by Dr. Dow
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
It is impolite to the point of rudeness for people to converse in a language that others in their company can hear but not understand. If you insist on doing it knowing this to be true, you are merely being boorish. And anyone who drags racism, nationalism, jingoism and the like into the argument deserves nothing but contempt.
# Posted on March 9th 2011 by gam
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
If you heard someone having a conversation with their friends in Irish in a pub, would you go up to them and say "excuse me. I can hear you. That's rude"?
Or would you just think nothing of it and get back to talking with your mates at your own table in English?
I would do the latter. Similarly on this forum if I can't understand a particular language I can just ignore the thread, or I can use Google translate if I really want to understand what's being said (not something you can do easily in a pub conversation)!
Stop being so defensive and feeling so threatened by it for pete's sake. They just want to have a conversation in their native tongue. Nobody's trying to stop you from speaking your native tongue. It's not some kind of threatening secret code. They're just shooting the sh*t about Tommy Peoples and Martin Hayes. Chill out.
# Posted on March 9th 2011 by Dr. Dow
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
'..you just end up sounding like an arsehole. Sorry, but you do.'
Irony.
Maybe they posted so *people like yourself can't post on it.
(*People like yourself who dominate most discussions on this site.) Just an idea - not an accusation.
is fearr is 'better' níos fearr is 'best'.
# Posted on March 9th 2011 by Hugo Chavez
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
The pub example is ofcourse spurious.
It has happened to me on several occasions however that I was carrying on a conversation with someone in English, until a third person joined the two others continued the conversation in Irish, or German, or French, or Polish.
That is extremely rude and inexcusable from my point of view. It's also something that I would never do myself. I would never carry on a conversation in a language some of the company couldn't understand, if there was a shared language available.
That's the situation we're talking about isn't it?
# Posted on March 9th 2011 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
This reminds me of the night I attended my first committee meeting of the local CCE, not long after I moved over here to Co. Antrim, from Scotland.
During the meeting they outlined all the planned forthcoming activities, including music tuition, dancing & Irish language classes, then to round off they asked us all to attend each of these groups of classes to set a good example, because of course we all wanted to be good Irish people! .......... & of course, that was the last meeting I attended!
I'm afraid I have absolutely no truck with any form of Nationalism or Patriotism & hate with a vengeance when those that do, try to hijack & use the language or the music to promote any of that old nonsense!
Born & reared in Scotland as I was, I have often seen Scots Gaelic, aye and the Scots dialect too, being used by total eejits {imho} in a boorish attempt to belittle those in the company who didn't have a grasp of it!
It was often clearly & openly used by these prats, in a sad attempt to try & demonstrate how they were somehow better & more worthy Scots, simply because they had gone to a few night classes & picked up a few phrases ... funny, if it wasn't so Sad!
I hated seeing that ignorant type of behaviour over there & I don't like seeing it over here either.
I play Irish Music, not because I want to be Irish, but simply because I like how it sounds & I enjoy playing it in the company of other enthusiasts .... end of story! NO! ... I don't need to learn how to Set Dance, or Irish Dance, or speak Irish or wear a silly Green costume on Paddy's Day, or get myself an Irish Passport!! ........ & to honest, I feel kind of sad for those that do get these urges, cause for me, the Music is enough!
I regularly play music with two very fluent Irish speakers & in the past 19 years of being in their company, I have never ever seen them USE their knowledge of, what is clearly a treasured skill for them, against others in their company in a rude or boorish way.
All that said, I don't know what all the fuss is about here. I had a wee look in here out of curiosity & couldn't believe the negative reaction!
I run a website/forum promoting Old Time Music throughout Europe & I actively encourage members to start groups & use their own language in those groups & on the Forum.
Let's face it, Irish Music has enthusiasts in many countries all over the World & I for one wouldn't mind seeing threads here in a number of different languages. Perhaps this one will trigger threads in a wide variety of different languages here, from now on. Wouldn't it be a nice way for us to encourage players in other countries to learn more about the music, even although they don't have a good grasp of English?
Now, if only Ulster Scots was really a language ........
Cheers
Dick
# Posted on March 9th 2011 by Ptarmigan
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Má tá tú ag iarraidh 'Cén teanga ab fhearr leat?" cuir tús ar snaith nua. "An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?" -sin an teideal atá ar an snaith seo.
It is not impolite to use a language that you don't understand. It IS however impolite of you to expect everyone to switch to suit you, especially given the fact that this thread is clearly titled in Irish. Why do you and your ilk feel so threatened by people using a language other than English. Is everything measured exclusively by its utility? Or by its popularity? In that case maybe you should be playing Justin Beiber. You have the right mentality, I believe you could go far. It is depressing to think that you feel so insecure by the 'other' that you feel the need to stamp it out.
Yet again a thread started in Irish (the native language of the people, be the Scot or Irish, who started much of the beautiful music we profess to love) has been denigrated into a thread justifying the language being used to discuss something. It says more to me about the identity of the critics than it does about the few who attempt to take part in it. Your self-image must be a truly delicate thing. I love the English language. It is my language as much as it is yours gam, silver spear, greg etc. And forgive me if I seem a little conceited but I wager I am at least, if not more, articulate in this language than you are. To celebrate one language does not demand that you denigrate another, something many of you uninvited critics would do well to learn, especially considering the strength of English. English does not need little linguistic policemen like you defending it at every turn. Elevate yourselves, have faith in trust in yourselves and then maybe you won't be so weak as to feel threatened by a language that will never apologise for its survival.
To those who have good will for the language, speakers or not, those who appreciate the beauty of diversity and aren't chomping at the bit to become a carbon copy of their neighbour -fair play and a mighty 'hup!'
Go mo leithscéal as ag baint úsáid as Béarla ar an snaith seo, a Ghaeilgeoirí ach tuigeann sibh an meon atá agam!
Gaeilge abú,
Gaeilge go deo,
Mac Donn
# Posted on March 9th 2011 by Mac Donn
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
I am not threatened by people who speak Irish. I do think it is boorish for anyone to exclude people in their company by deliberately speaking a language some of the company don't speak. That's quite a different thing.
# Posted on March 9th 2011 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
And I think it is boorish of you to crash a conversation that was started in Irish, about a musical topic, to vent your opinion on an entirely unrelated matter.
# Posted on March 9th 2011 by Mac Donn
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
It a subject that is running through a number of threads at the minute and I was directly responding to a post that was part of the conversation. You post a thread, they drift. It's the nature of internet forums, once you post things are out of your hands.
# Posted on March 9th 2011 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Ptarmigan fair bit of axe grinding with CCE there mate.. Its a pity some people are so hostile to Irish culture, interesting that you go as far as to try and nullify its influence within your own playing and development. Pity.
Chavez and Mac Donn make some particularly good points. The speaking of Irish does not need to be justified. and no point has anyone created any sort of polarized arguments with political or socially exclusive conotations so I dont know WTF gam was waffling about Nationalism etc for. At the end of the day this is a site with a large variety of people from different cultural background. For those of you who have not grown up under the influence of Irish culture and found the music some other way. Chill out, sit back and enjoy those who maybe have. There is already common ground with the music FFS. The language is equally beautiful and its a tad disrespectful to simply "latch" onto to have a tear up on the mustard board about.. Point scoring and waffle
# Posted on March 9th 2011 by Miss Mulligan
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
I don't have a problem with the Gaelic. I do think it makes the board hard to moderate if you're a non-Gaelic speaker. If Jeremy isn't fluent in Gaelic he may crack down if there's abuse or complaints, but that's up to him. I have no idea if he is or not.
To the OP: does it matter? I've never really got these "who is the bestest" kind of conversations because taste is such a personal thing. My most beloved player of music is my dad, not because of his skill but because I would rather listen to him play than anyone else. He made me love music and he made me a producer, not just a consumer, however poor.
# Posted on March 9th 2011 by Red Menace
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
In the case of the recent threads in Irish they seem to inevitably drift towards a defence of the medium of thos threads. This is something you have contributed to. You fail to see how there is a parallel with your previous argument about code-switching? You say you think it's boorish for people to exclude others by 'deliberately speaking a language some of the company don't speak' as if the whole purpose of them speaking the language is to exclude you. Do you have any idea how conceited that sounds. I couldn't, even with a mustering of my considerable energies, care less about your perceived offense in these situations. You must truly be a delicate flower. The simple equation is that if a language isn't spoken it dies. It seems to be monoglot English speakers who feel most threatened in these situations. Why is that? Does it not smack you as strange that many speakers of perhaps the most viable language in the world feel so vulnerable? I have spent the last 6 years working in Thailand, Korea and Brunei and have been involved in conversations that have began in English and switched to Thai, Korean, Malay, Hindi, Lao etc and never felt that I was being belittled despite the fact that all in the conversation could speak English.
Man I do get tired of those with the insensitive manners of bully -isn't that the definition of boorishness?
Yours in diversity,
Mac Donn
# Posted on March 9th 2011 by Mac Donn
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Thats actually a good point about the site becoming hard to moderate.. from a purley practical point of view the only sensible suggestion against. Im the same, whislt I have my favourite musicans. The enjoyment of being in the company of loved ones playing the music by far exceeds what I get from listening to the "greats", thus agree that "who is the bestest" is totally relative.
# Posted on March 9th 2011 by Miss Mulligan
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Mac Donn you sound like you lead an interesting existance. fair play
# Posted on March 9th 2011 by Miss Mulligan
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Well, if Google has got things right, I am thinking big_tab's first post was a clever response to deliberatly provocative OP.
# Posted on March 9th 2011 by David50
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Well said, Mac Donn. It's amazing that people still come out with some of these comments, isn't it? You should give them the benefit of the doubt, though, and view it as coming from ignorance rather than genuine hatred or xenophobia or something like that. Unless they speak a minority language themselves, it's unlikely that they understand much about the relationship between language, identity and culture and instead view languages simply as tools for communication. From their point of view, they're just words that are translatable so why not just use English and make it easier for everyone? They don't realise that it's not just the WORDS you say but what you CHOOSE to say that's important.
The thing is, with these people, you're not going to convince them by belittling them back. It's counter-productive. You have to explain your logic to them clearly so that they can see it from your perspective.
I don't have a "best" musician. I have favourite musicians of course, but they change all the time depending on my mood. Like the poster above, I enjoy hearing my dad play and playing tunes with him. That's meaningful for me and very rewarding.
# Posted on March 9th 2011 by Dr. Dow
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Sorry that was a quote, not my own opinion. Should've used speech marks to clarify..
From their point of view, they're "just words that are translatable so why not just use English and make it easier for everyone?"
# Posted on March 9th 2011 by Dr. Dow
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
My first post was a bit snappy and I apologise for that. If people want to use Irish, whatever. But it does strike me as analagous to hanging out in he pub with a group of pals speaking language X and then someone comes over who speaks language Y. Several people in the group also speak language Y and they all start chattering away in that, while those who don't speak it are left out of the conversation. Obviously there' s nothing wrong with using language Y but it is a bit rude to do that.
I got snappy because it seemed to me that the OP was being deliberately provocative. Maybe he's not. Maybe he just wants to start threads in Irish. But after the last one turned into a bit of a row, you'd think there would be a bit of a learning curve.
# Posted on March 9th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Miss, I spent the first 35 years of my life resisting any attempts to make me a Patriotic or Nationalistic Scot, so I was hardly going to be delighted at the prospect of anyone or any group, wishing to turn me into a wee Irishman.
I certainly don't hold any truck with anyone who says that because you love the music, then there must somehow be something wrong with you, if you don't automatically embrace every other aspect of Irish Culture.
The fact is, I've lived in Ireland, both North & South, for 25 years now, so if I didn't like the place, the people & the culture, I think it's fair to say I would have gone home a long time ago.
However, because I don't actively embrace other aspects of Irish Culture, it doesn't automatically follow that I am somehow hostile towards any of them.
That's like so much $hit that goes on up here in the North, e.g. if you are not for us, then of course you must be against us .... which is of course, utter Bo££ocks!
So I must say, I do resent the implication that because I don't have any desire to learn Irish, that somehow I am therefore automatically hostile towards it!
If you don't mind me saying so, it's that sort of attitude, from those who do speak the language, that give it & those others who have it, but have no desire to evangelise on it, a bad name. Just like your missguided assumption that I "try and nullify its influence within your {my} own playing and development."
I am quite comfortable with the few aspects of it, that I do come across, otherwise why would I, for example, be daily teaching youngsters tunes whose titles are in Irish.
I of course encourage the singing off & treat songs in Irish at any of our sessions up here, with the same respect as any in English.
Cheers
Dick
# Posted on March 9th 2011 by Ptarmigan
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
But the OP wasn't just starting a conversation in their own language, they were asking the views of a subset of people selected on a basis that was controversial. Like going down to the pub on March 17th, asking for a vote but implying that only answers from people born in Ireland counted.
# Posted on March 9th 2011 by David50
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Crossed with TSS.
# Posted on March 9th 2011 by David50
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Interesting point Dr. Dow, I agree. Language is a filter through which you relate to the world. It's much more than simply finding another way of saying 'table'. Likewise as languages become extinct so too does wisdoms, perspectives and knowledge that was embedded in that language. Anyone who has even a passing knowledge of the placenames in Ireland will appreciate that. In English the placenames are nothing more than nonsensical sounds but those same sounds in Irish can often accurately describe the topography of the land, a local legend or an historical event. There are medicinal plants used here in Borneo y the Dayak that western medicine doesn't even have a name for. Yes losing a language is more than just losing another way to say table.
# Posted on March 9th 2011 by Mac Donn
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Yes, and people who are monolinguals or elite bilinguals don't get that. People who are bilingual with competence in a minority language generally do get it, or are subconsciously aware of it, but find it difficult to express their arguments clearly because the issue is complicated, being tied in with symbolism, national pride, other aspects of culture, individual and group identities, social networks, people's motivations and political agendas, people's attitudes and aspirations, money, power, and all the rest of it. It's easier just to dig your heels in and get defensive. Best just to try and explain and if it falls on deaf ears, feck it and do your own thing
# Posted on March 9th 2011 by Dr. Dow
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Dr Dow. Are you telling me I don't understand what Mac Donn just wrote ?
# Posted on March 9th 2011 by David50
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Huh? Am I whatty you what?? I don't follow...
# Posted on March 9th 2011 by Dr. Dow
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
GIven what this thread has become....
I someone wants to start a discussion in Irish, inc the heading, so be it, and it would be rude to dive in in English.
Courtesy cuts both ways. A comment in Irish in an English thread could equally be rude, (no worries with the odd GRMA etc.)
# Posted on March 9th 2011 by TomB-R
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Incredible stuff here. If the session.org is like a pub and it has conversations going on and a few tunes in the corner The Prof considers me "boorish" and others consider me an arsehole and ill mannered for carrying on a conversation in Irish only wanting to converse at this particular time through Irish. The boorish ones are those who charged into this thread and stoped us conversing in in Irish, You remind me of the assholes who come into a session and say "Enough of this diddley sh*te..Play something we all know!". You are the very same type of people. Prof .. I am shocked.. Greg and Gam.. You expose your miserable limitations .
# Posted on March 9th 2011 by big_tab
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
I am monolingual and I think do "get" what you are agreeing with Mac Donn about.
# Posted on March 9th 2011 by David50
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
I think people do get it, Dow. Or rather, one can understand the concept of how ontological constructs are quite fundamentally tied to language, or not get it all, regardless of what they speak.
# Posted on March 9th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
David50 that's great. I did say "generally"... not ALL monolinguals...
# Posted on March 9th 2011 by Dr. Dow
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Oh I'm sorry I only said "generally" once. I meant to say "generally speaking" for monolinguals. mea culpa
# Posted on March 9th 2011 by Dr. Dow
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Silver Spear .. You were the first to jump in here when you were contributing nothing to the post and call the poster an arsehole for writing in Irish. When we get posts (and we do) about Morris Dancing I stay out of it as its not my thing. Should you have stayed out of this thread which was about ones favouite musician? Would you like to apologize to the Op for your attack on him for postin in his native tongue on an Irish Traditional forum?
# Posted on March 9th 2011 by big_tab
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Silver Spear.. I see you have apologized above, Fair enough.
# Posted on March 9th 2011 by big_tab
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
big_tab ba chóir duit dearmad ach é agus leanúint ar aghaidh ag labhairt as Gaeilge!
Did Google do that right?
# Posted on March 9th 2011 by Dr. Dow
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Ba mhaith liomsa Eddie Clarke (orgán béil), Arty Mc Glynn (giotar) agus Paul Brady (giotar) a chur ar an liosta. Bhféidir nach uirlisí fíor-traidisiunta iad seo, ach is/ba seinnteoirí fíor-traidisiúnta iad an daoine seo.
I don't think using Irish here is any more rude than using it in a pub where not everyone present will understand but some will. And some will want to learn based on what they hear or read. I wish had the ability to make this entire post in Irish. I don't, but I've made the effort
# Posted on March 9th 2011 by harmonic miner
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Aye, Tab. Reading people's posts is a handy thing to do now and then.
# Posted on March 9th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Dr Dow. I could ignore this ignorance and these attacks on a reasonably interesting thread and continue on in Irish. I wont though. I want these posters who have abused the OP and us that followed for conversing in Irish, while not interfering with anyone else , how sickening it is to be told that we are boorish and rude as we discuss Hayes and Peoples. Tuigim gan fadhb ar bith na facail atá ag usáid agat! Maith thú a Ghoogle!! Harmonic.. Eddie Clarke..Ar fheabhas!
# Posted on March 9th 2011 by big_tab
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Silver Spear.. I really wish you hadn't read this one!
# Posted on March 9th 2011 by big_tab
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
I do regret attacking the OP (should not go on Mustard Board whilst pished..bad idea) but I still think it's a wind up.
# Posted on March 9th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
A wind up to annoy all you Irish Language Haters?
# Posted on March 9th 2011 by big_tab
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
B'fhearr liom an cheol a cholisteáil i gcomhtheacs beo de ghnáth, mar tá rud eigin iontach fisiciúl faoin cheol seo. Tarlíonn an draíocht nuair atá na daoine ag seinnim le chéile. Tá mé ag baint sult as ceol de chuid Phaddy Keenan ag an bhomáite agus beidh sé ag seinnim anseo ar an Bhorneo ar an Féile Cheoil an Domhanda i Mí Iúil an bhliain seo.
# Posted on March 9th 2011 by Mac Donn
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
My hands are still sore from having to learn Irish at school. I'm afraid to me the Irish language conjures up poverty, abuse and emigration. Having said that, I would dearly love to have a fluency in the language, if only to understand the names of some of the tunes that I play.
I was once asked to a play a hornpipe for an old Irishman in a pub in London. Following a few attempts at dancing the hornpipe he was still not happy with my playing and in all sincerity he asked me if I could play the tune in Irish. ?????
# Posted on March 9th 2011 by Free Reed
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
I think it is the "wisdom and perspective" part of Mac Donn's post that can be hard to get and hard to be sure about having got. People who are fluent in English as a second language often phrase things in a way that hints at a different way of looking at things. I wonder if that is what gets lost in *insufficently* literal translations of poetry - or maybe retained by Googles quirky translations.
# Posted on March 9th 2011 by David50
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
I apologised. I was out of line. But if you want to go on calling anyone who disagrees with you an "Irish language hater," that's your prerogative, dude.
# Posted on March 9th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Of course anyone who wishes to contribute to this thread in Irish can simply use this site: http://www.ackuna.com/Irish/to-English/
Ar ndóigh, duine ar bith atá ag iarraidh cur leis an snáithe sa Ghaeilge a úsáid ach an suíomh seo: http://www.ackuna.com/Irish/to-English/
Bheag,
Dick
# Posted on March 9th 2011 by Ptarmigan
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Anyone who comes on to an Irish Language thread dicussing musicians and calls the Irish language posters "boorish," Bad mannered" "arseholes" are hardly Irish Language lovers. Silver Spear.. I like your posting bigtime here and I appreciate you have rowed back on your initial post.
# Posted on March 9th 2011 by big_tab
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
'The Prof considers me "boorish" and others consider me an arsehole and ill mannered for carrying on a conversation in Irish only wanting to converse at this particular time through Irish.'
No. That is not what I said at all. I made it very clear several times the situation I was talking about was that of an ongoing conversation with someone walking in changing the language of the conversation to one not shared by all taking part in that conversation. It's about being inclusive to all who are part of the conversation, something you have been known to go on about.
# Posted on March 9th 2011 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
I still think it is a bit dubious to have discussions here, on an international message board, in a language most people don't speak. Maybe I'm wrong and it's not dubious at all. To me it's a way of being exclusive, of saying, "I only want to have a conversation with certain people." Would be the same if people were posting in Spanish. That doesn't make me "hate" the Irish language.
Maybe I'm wrong in reading the whole inclusivity/exclusivity thing into how this board should be.
# Posted on March 9th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
These arguments about world view through language and words for medicinal plants that could be useful to the human race are often brought up in discussions like this. They're all valid, but unfortunately it's fairly easy for a naysayer to argue against them in a way that is convincing to people who are undecided. Bottom line is, Irish speakers shouldn't NEED to put forward defensive arguments. They have a right to maintain their language and cultural self-regulation. End of.
# Posted on March 9th 2011 by Dr. Dow
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
You compared that situation in the pub with people using Irish on this forum. Desperate sh*t and very surprised at you wanting to curtail anyones use of Irish.
# Posted on March 9th 2011 by big_tab
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Last post to the Prof.
# Posted on March 9th 2011 by big_tab
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
'You compared that situation in the pub with people using Irish on this forum. Desperate sh*t and very surprised at you wanting to curtail anyones use of Irish.'
I am not sure you are addressing me of Dr Dow, who made the pub conversation argument. If it's myself you are talking to I would draw your attention to the fact I called the pub argument 'spurious' and made the point that was not what this argument is about.
# Posted on March 9th 2011 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
@big_tab
Táim ag éisteacht le 'Unheard' anois. It's the real deal, no blues clichés or jazzy influences (though I like those too at times)
# Posted on March 9th 2011 by harmonic miner
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Cross post. OK, go back read what I said, which amounted to saying it is ridiculous to object to a group of people speaking in Irish when you're not part of that conversation.
# Posted on March 9th 2011 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Bhuel dún do chlab ansin, ollamh.
Bhí ceol tradisiúnta ar m'intinn ar dtús harmonic miner ach tá an ceart agat, ní deireann an teidéal aon rud faoin stíl ceoil atá i gceist.
Anois tá mé ag baint a lán sult as an stíl giotar John Martyn agus an guth atá aige. I mo thuairimse níl an ceol sin ro-chasta ach tá binneas na fírinne ann ar aon nós!
# Posted on March 9th 2011 by Mac Donn
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
"I am not threatened by people speaking Irish.I do think it is boorish to speak a language some in the company do not speak" This is what you came on this thread and said. It implies implicitly that you consider it boorish to post in Irish here.The thread was about your favouite musician.
# Posted on March 9th 2011 by big_tab
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
I'll speak when I feel like Mac Donn
# Posted on March 9th 2011 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
One point that was raised in one of the above posts, was that some people regard posting in Irish on this board, or for that matter, speaking in Irish when there are others in the company who don't speak the language, as rude (where the Irish speakers are bilingual and fluent in English). It's for this very reason that languages like Irish and Scot's Gaelic are particularly threatened. The Welsh have got it right - and quite rightly ignore such things. Indeed, this is probably why the Welsh language is thriving today.
# Posted on March 9th 2011 by On Sabbatical
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Tab, that was not my first post on this thread.
# Posted on March 9th 2011 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Dúirt an t-ollamh:
"I said, which amounted to saying it is ridiculous to object to a group of people speaking in Irish when you're not part of that conversation."
Más fíor é, ba cheart duit é dhéanamh,
le méas mór,
Mac Donn
# Posted on March 9th 2011 by Mac Donn
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Touché
# Posted on March 9th 2011 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
An t-ollamh,
Ná bí ag lábhairt Fraincise anseo, tá sé doiligh go leor rudaí a leanúint mar atá!!!
# Posted on March 9th 2011 by Mac Donn
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
This is shocking. This whole thread.
Keep posting macdonn either language.
I can't believe some of the things people are saying.
It reminds me of when the world cup went to America and there was all the talk about getting rid of goalkeepers and making the goals bigger to cater for a worldwide audience.
...
'To me it's a way..... of saying, "I only want to have a conversation with certain people."....'
What the hell is wrong with that? It's not elitist. Some feckers on this website think they need to contribute on every thread. They don't. It's a good way of filtering off the numpties.
Leann ar aghaidh macdonn.
# Posted on March 9th 2011 by Hugo Chavez
Cùng tuổi cùng tuổi ...
Tại sao người ta cần các dấu chấm để tìm hiểu các giai điệu truyền thống Ailen khi tất cả các bạn cần là để có điều chỉnh trong đầu của bạn, hoặc, trời cấm, một ghi âm. Và tại sao trống da dê có một vị trí trong truyền thống? Cuối cùng nếu có đưa tiền cho phiên, là nó thực sự là một buổi biểu diễn?
# Posted on March 9th 2011 by yhaalhouse
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Go raibh maith agat as do theachtaireacht Hugo Chavez.
# Posted on March 9th 2011 by Mac Donn
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Ha - Maybe its not numptie-proof!
..ach cheapaim - tar eis beagnach am - beidh sé éasca...
# Posted on March 9th 2011 by Hugo Chavez
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Yhaalhouse, I didn't know you were fluent in Tootinese
# Posted on March 9th 2011 by Rudall the time
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Maith thú Hugo. Fair play dhuit Mac Donn. Tá súil agam go neiríonn sé níos éasca.
# Posted on March 9th 2011 by big_tab
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Bhuel, leanfaidh muid ar aghaidh ar aon nós leaids!
# Posted on March 9th 2011 by Mac Donn
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
....ach tá brón orm Big_tab...
Tá do chara 'flynner' an numpty níos mo anseo..(tar éis yhaal, Tss, Rudall, Gam, llig (llewes nairb) etc, etc, etc,....
# Posted on March 9th 2011 by Hugo Chavez
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
This is an Irish music discussion board. Most Irish musicians who live in Ireland and are from Ireland speak Irish (at least in my experience). I don't see a problem with having Irish language on an Irish music board! If anything it makes more sense than English.
And as my Irish sucks, I'll back away now....
# Posted on March 9th 2011 by fiddletreegypsy
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Bhuel now a Hugo. Béadh sé leadránach go leor má aontaíonn muid an tám go léir. Is maith liom Flynner anseo ach níl aithne dá laghad agam ar éinne anseo.. tusa ach an oiread.. Tá mé sásta go bhfuil sé mar sin anseo. Níos mó caic.. Is fuath liom an focal gaeilge "craic"!
# Posted on March 9th 2011 by big_tab
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Ach ar ais go dtí an snáth féin - mholfainn nach féidir Martin Hayes a shárú ar an fhidil. Chuala mé le déanaí é sa Cheolaras Náisiúnta le ceolfhoireann RTE ag seinm le ceolfhoireann RTE ag a leithéad d'oíche cheoil níor chuala mé le fada. Mar a dúirt póstaire cheana ar an snáth seo, tá draíocht ar leith baint leis an ceol beo.
# Posted on March 9th 2011 by Cian Mhic Cáinte
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
...I know you do....and didley....
Fochaill - níl aon siad níos mó....
# Posted on March 9th 2011 by Hugo Chavez
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
This thread is absolutely hilarious. A bit predictable, with the usual suspects making sure to misinterpret what people say as they always do. But at least it's polarising in a new and interesting way with several sound posters making strong (and apparently irreconcilable arguments) on either side.
I am currently learning two minority languages (see, that gives me "street cred" - while leaving me open to spurious attacks about my hatred for the irish language and general lack of knowledge about the subject) and I have to ask, what's the point?
1) On this particular website, where there are a vast number of opinionated people who are used to having an opinion about everything, there is absolutely no way you will be able to have a discussion in Irish without it turning into a discussion about whether it's right to have a discussion in Irish on the mustard board. Therefore, you either have to be naive, a complete idiot, or a windup merchant to start a thread in Irish. I'm all for the benefit of the doubt, but the OP is at best naive.
2) What are you trying to do? Beyond the idea of "it's a site about irish music, what is more natural than to talk about it in Irish?" I find it difficult to believe you could do so without some kind of ulterior motive (unless of course, I assume complete naivety). And unless you make clear what your motive is (and even if you do), you're letting yourself wide open for other people to interpret your motives.
- promoting the irish language? Fair enough, but sending people to a crap service like google translate, as opposed to providing your own translation is hardly going to convince people that another language is more than just substituting in different words.
- deliberately excluding non-irish-speaking people from the conversation? Yes, there's google translate, but it's extra effort, particularly if there actually was a meaningful conversation happening in irish - at which point google translate would not be able to provide more than a meaningless jumble of words. How else can this exclusion be taken than "You posers on the mustard board aren't Irish, most of you can't even play, so I'm just going to talk to the "real" irish people".
- sending a message to non-irish speaking people. Err... thanks, I already know I don't speak Irish (or welsh, spanish, japanese, breton, occitan, swedish and all the other languages I want to learn/become a better speaker of some day). I don't need "shaming" into learning Irish, thanks.
Bottom line, posting in Irish on the mustard board without providing a translation is passive-aggressive bullsh*t - or extreme naivety.
Of course, in an ideal world, the irish speaking people could have their conversation and the rest of us ignorant feckers would just ignore it (and, for my part, I would be very happy to see it). It's like those posts that say "I want to discuss learning from the dots and I'm not interested in opinions that it's a bad idea", just not going to happen...
# Posted on March 9th 2011 by Tirno
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
?
# Posted on March 9th 2011 by big_tab
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Dia ár sabháil,
D'oscail duine eigin na doirse ag teach na ngealt!
# Posted on March 9th 2011 by Mac Donn
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
If I were to negotiate a Japanese or Hindi website, I would not object it I found the posts in a language I didn't understand. However, the home page of this website is in English, to become a member you must use English, and the rules and FAQs are in English. assuming, then that the OP speaks some English, he could easily have opened with something like, 'English is my second language, so...' and no-one would have objected. There have been posts in the past by non-natives, the replies to which have been (almost) in their own language. It is apparent in this case, though, that the OPs intention is to stir up trouble.
The pub analogy is a bad one. I used to be a publican, and for a few years I had a couple of dozen Libyan students as regulars. I knew how hard it was for them to speak English all the time, especially after studying all day in a language not their own, and consuming vast quantities of alcohol. I had no objection to their speaking arabic, and to the few regulars who said anything to me about it, I explained that they weren't being offensive. Deliberately excluding others WHO ARE IN YOUR COMPANY, however, can never be excused. I use capitals this time so as not to be misrepresented. I have no objection to anyone speaking in whatever language he or she chooses; but the common rules of decency apply. And for those who assume that I am English, I am not. And I speak more than one language.
# Posted on March 9th 2011 by gam
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
"just not going to happen" Timo are you so sure? Unless Jeremy expressly forbids the use of the Irish Language here we can post in Irish the rare time we might wish and completely ignore you and others like you . It is a bit weird that you would find it so horrible this terrible conversation about Martin Hayes as you sit at your laptop in Switzerland. Lets stop these bad guys speaking Irish!
# Posted on March 9th 2011 by big_tab
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
glaoch ar dhuine ar gealt ar ais taobh thiar de chuid an bealach is fearr na cairde a dhéanamh.
# Posted on March 9th 2011 by Tirno
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Bhí muid ag plé an difir idir ceol taifeadta agus ceol beo, is cuimhin liom blianta ó shin in amharclann beag in Iúr Cinn Trá ag amharc ar Steve Cooney ag seinnim ceoil ar an ghiotar -gan brógaí. Bhí sé go hiontach. Silim go raibh Paidrigín Ní hÚallacháin ag canadh an oíche ceanna -níl suim mór agam ins a stíl féin agus níor éist nóta ar bith óna cuid ceoil ó shin amach ach, ar an oíche sin, san amharclann beag áítiúl sin -bhí draoícht crúthaithe san aer.
# Posted on March 9th 2011 by Mac Donn
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Oh of course, you can plow straight through the naysayers and just talk in Irish if you wish. More power to you. And I really am fine with that.
(although given the amazing quality of the current Irish portion of the discussion I'm a bit sorry to be missing out. A fascinatingly nuanced exchange of opinions of the great masters of Irish music, to be sure)
Of course the fact that I'm in Switzerland (currently not actually, but neither France nor the USA is better I suppose) makes me a second class citizen in the online irish music world. I can go on pretending all I like, but I will never play as well as a true Irish-speaking Irish person.
# Posted on March 9th 2011 by Tirno
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Ní raibh ar intinn agam ach comhrá a bheith as gaeilge. . .is docha go bhfuil me óg, agus dá bharr sin nílim ciniciúil. . .an chreideann aon duine go raibh sé ar intinn agam cúpla cómhrá a chur suas anseo, gan aon saghas sprioc nó ghleadhartha. . .chreidim gur theanga í le láidreacht de saghas áirithe, agus bhí mé ag iarradh í a úsáid go poiblí. . .
Muna bhfuil suim ag daoine áirithe sa teanga, níl aon fadbh agam le sin, ach ná bí ag tabhairt amach domsa faoi. Ná bí drochbhéasach faoi. Ná bí ag iarraidh mise a chuir síos go pearsanta, ó ba rud é gur chuir mé comhrá isteach sa suíomh seo as Gaeilge.
Ar ábhar an comhrá, ceapaimse féin gur imreoir iontach tallanach é Brian Finnegan, ar thaobh an fheadóg stáin. . .
# Posted on March 9th 2011 by fluther
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Timo .. it was your ignorance towards those posting here in Irish I was attacking as you sit wherever you sit not your ability to play the music. You only have two shoulders and lots of chips.
# Posted on March 9th 2011 by big_tab
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
There's a nuance to Tirno's argument I am not sure you're getting, Tab.
He (and I) have no objections to people using Irish. It's a fantastic language. Our objections are to people using it passively aggressively as a semantic weapon, to allude certain opinions about people who play this music and who post on thesession.org. Surely you must dislike seeing the language you love misused in such a fashion!
I could be completely wrong about the OP's ulterior motives. In which case I'll leave you to happily discuss anything you want in Irish or any other language.
# Posted on March 9th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Is buaine port ná glór na n-éan,
Is buaine focal ná toice an tsaoil.
A tune is more lasting than the song of the birds,
And a word more lasting than the wealth of the world.
(One of my favourite Irish proverbs)
# Posted on March 9th 2011 by MacCruiskeen
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Fair enough, Fluther. I'm probably too young to be a cynic anyway.
I always found interesting that people will put down Brian Finnegan for his "non-traditional" style, while he says in an interview that that's how he learnt to play, from the oldtimers in his community. It's certainly challenging to assumptions. Regardless, I find his playing in a lot of circumstances a bit too repetitive and predictable in its syncopations and its noodling around eminor and f#whatever the f* that mode is.
# Posted on March 9th 2011 by Tirno
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
I just plugged fluther's last post into Google translate (is that what you want people to do?) and yeah, fair enough. But it came in on the back of discussions about how you can never really understand the music unless you speak the language and so on, which was why I assumed a cynical motive.
# Posted on March 9th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
big tab... what ignorance towards those posting in Irish?
# Posted on March 9th 2011 by Tirno
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Tirno,
Stop smoking whatever u are smoking. The nuances in your argument I'm getting are coming across paranoid and angry.
Can you access webtv where you are? Jeremy Kyle may be on. Might be better for you...
# Posted on March 9th 2011 by Hugo Chavez
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
So silver spear, were you wrong about the OP's motive?
# Posted on March 9th 2011 by Hugo Chavez
Meta question for gaelige discussions
Are there many instances, in our archives, of discussions using primarily Irish language on the board ...
?
& are any of those worth reading?
I don't speak gaelige, but I do use the translator.
# Posted on March 9th 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
I use the translator too and it has left me puzzled about Macrusikeen's quote of the proverb.
Is there any one around who can explain it using different words ?
# Posted on March 9th 2011 by David50
Céanna d'aois chéanna d'aois ...
Cén fáth teastáil ó dhaoine a dhéanann na poncanna a fhoghlaim foinn traidisiúnta na hÉireann nuair a bhíonn go léir is gá duit a tune i do cheann, nó, dia forbidden, ar thaifead. Agus é sin an fáth ar chraiceann gabhair druma sa suíomh traidisiúnta? Mar fhocal scoir, más féidir leat airgead a thabhairt do na seisiún, tá sé i ndáiríre a thaispeáint?
# Posted on March 9th 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
David,
For some reason GT omits the 'more lasting' part as you'll see if you then translate the English translation above into Irish.
# Posted on March 9th 2011 by MacCruiskeen
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Cac Naofa! Bíodh nach fhulaing muintir na hÉireann go leor? An bhfuil gá leo i ndáiríre an sciúirse de Google-Ghaeilge?
# Posted on March 9th 2011 by fidkid
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Cac Naofa!.... for those interested.. Holy sh*t! .. Maith thú fidpáiste!
# Posted on March 9th 2011 by big_tab
It cuts both ways.
# Posted on March 9th 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Are you going to let Google know?
# Posted on March 9th 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Thanks Macruiskeen. My view that anything vaguely poetic is best not translated is re-inforced. Nice though it is it looks like it would be best said in Irish.
Fidkid - "worldy[sic] wealth" is Google-english we could do without.
# Posted on March 9th 2011 by David50
Who do you think are the best Irish musicians?
# Posted on March 9th 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Time to brighten the mood lads?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DTNBmFveq2U
# Posted on March 9th 2011 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Cheech & Chong
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7KRVA6_0U4
# Posted on March 9th 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
dea-intinn cairde a fháil, “hugo chavez”
An Ghaeilge atá anseo practice.Thanks iontach maith. Coinnigh suas é!
# Posted on March 9th 2011 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
By my smug estimate this discussion is now only up to its knees in it (as eloquently depicted below, by Señor Goya) but with effort could sink further:
http://all-history.org/New%20Folder/272/112.jpg
# Posted on March 9th 2011 by NEW Pure Drop® Ear Canal Oil
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Maith an fear síos san Austráil Flynner!
# Posted on March 9th 2011 by big_tab
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Well, well, bless my merkin, such erudition, and there's me thinking that the mustard pages were about a common appreciation of ITM.
Still, he who hebetates is last so I must away before the linguists begin to formicate.
P.S. Dick, I like your postings.
Sam.
# Posted on March 9th 2011 by sam bracken
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Having read through that lot and thrown my hat in earlier with the 'ignorant outsiders', I want to reiterate that my view, too, is nothing whatsoever against Irish, but just about common courtesy.
The agenda for this and any website is set by the default language it was constructed in. Apart from the deliberate exclusion, the possibility of aroused suspicions (not justified I hope), you have effectively prevented some of us learning from your great wisdom. Fair enough, but another day we may well end up getting criticised for our cultural ignorance.
I too am all for the use of minority languages, but sometimes ill-considered use can do more harm than good.
For the record, regarding the supposed laziness of non-Irish speakers, I speak three other languages other than my own, one well and two badly...
Big Tab, Tirro and Spear have it right IMO.
# Posted on March 9th 2011 by ian stock
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Ian. I think it would be common courtesy to let people chat away however they want and not be so paranoid that we are discussing bad stuff about those that dont speak the language. Relax a little. It might only happen one in 300 threads. i hope it happens more. Like I said i dont get involved in the Morris Dancing threads because its not for me so maybe you shouldnt be killing yourself trying to get on the Irish language. I sincerely hope that from time to time fluthier and Mac donn and others post in Irish. Its strange having to fight so we can speak Irish on a trad music site sometimes. Maybe the day might come when we could be chatting away in Irish at a real session and someone will but in and tell us we are being "deliberately exclusive". If it happens I will say the same as I say here.. I will never apologize for speaking this lovely language.
# Posted on March 9th 2011 by big_tab
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Agree with tab. That's why I have not contributed to this thread thus far. People *have* chatted away in Irish at a session I recently used to attend (though the fluency of one of them was questionable, but no matter.)
# Posted on March 9th 2011 by Rudall the time
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Fluency is nothing . It is to help improve ones capabilities that it would be nice to see it here sometimes.
# Posted on March 10th 2011 by big_tab
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Yep, as I said, no matter. Maybe I shouldn't have mentioned that.
# Posted on March 10th 2011 by Rudall the time
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Really, it's a shame to see English written and spoken to the exclusion of so many other languages. I am thoroughly shocked by the reactions here of the folks who think the use of any other language is offensive. Maybe they should quit using Irish words, such as "whiskey" for one.....
# Posted on March 10th 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
tab, I'm not saying I'm not relaxed about the practice. I was simply pointing out that it *could* be misconstrued. It is akin to talking in a group of three, while steadfastly ignoring one of the other two people. Some (many?) people would see that as rude too.
Personally I find it annoying not to be able to understand, but no more.And I certainly don't disagree about it being a beautiful language.
Ian
# Posted on March 10th 2011 by ian stock
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
p.s. I spend quite a lot of time in multilingual situations, and the accepted norm is to settle on the language spoken by all, or the majority. Regrettably, too often that is English.
I have often seen it done where one person leaves a situation and the language immediatley shifts to something else that the remainder also understand - or even a cocktail of several.
# Posted on March 10th 2011 by ian stock
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Ian , you are either for posting in Irish being pursued or you are against. Its one or the other and it sounds like you are against it beacause you said timo and ss have it right. I think they are dismissing some great fun and they have it totally wrong and therefore so do you.
# Posted on March 10th 2011 by big_tab
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
"Maybe they should quit using Irish words, such as "Whiskey" for one..... "
Aye, you mean stick to the correct spelling ..... Whisky!
# Posted on March 10th 2011 by Ptarmigan
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
big_tab. The Morris Dancing analogy is stupid. The OP was about something that interests most people on the board, it listed musicians from outside the group to who it was addressed (implicitly by use of language) and (assuming Google has it right) it canvassed views ( a vote ? a poll ?) on the subject from an exclusive group of people.
I may have been wrong in interpreting it that way, but that it did not come over as the start of a friendly discussion in shared language, it came over as deliberatly provocative.
And for the record, I am strongly in favour of appropriate positive discimination in favour of languages that are in danger (e.g. they can spend some of my taxes on it) and find it sad that a lot of parents and children do not realise that they are letting something important slip away.
# Posted on March 10th 2011 by David50
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
>>you are either for posting in Irish being pursued or you are against
Why? Is it not possible to see both sides of an argument and sit on the fence?
I agree with it on cultural grounds but disagree with it on courtesy grounds.
# Posted on March 10th 2011 by ian stock
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
David.. There was absolutely nothing wrong with the op. Deliberately provocative? Incredible. Says way more about you than anything else.
# Posted on March 10th 2011 by big_tab
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
What is this "translator" that has been mentioned here by some people? On my Google Chrome browser I have a little icon that says "translate this page". I clicked on it and nothing happened. I then highlighted one of the posts in Irish and clicked on the icon. Again, nothing happened. Am I using the right application or is it something else I need to do? And what about people who don't use the Google browser which isn't, yet, the most widely supported browser (or even the best)..
Some years ago on this website an OP (who apparently did not have English) posted in a non-English language. Someone else replied in that language, but, for the benefit of the large majority who were not able to understand what was going on, he kindly provided not only an English translation of his response but a useful summary, also in English, of the OP's post. That was good manners, there was no bad feeling, and the discussion was able to continue with contributions by some of said large majority.
It is also worth pointing out that not all the 70K-plus members here are necessarily in a position ever to be able to learn Irish, let alone all the other readers who are not members and who may wonder at some the things that have been said in this discussion.
For the record I can, with a struggle, usually make some sort of sense of French, Dutch, and the easier Classical Latin and Greek texts, but adding to that list at my age is a step too far.
# Posted on March 10th 2011 by Trevor Jennings
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
big_tab. I said I may have misunderstood. I think that will become clear one way or the other in time. It was a mixed language discussion by the time I joined it and I think several people were being unreasonable. I don't care what language people post in, I will not pay any attention if it is a language I don't understand.
# Posted on March 10th 2011 by David50
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Sure we are fine so David
# Posted on March 10th 2011 by big_tab
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Trevor. Try this http://translate.google.co.uk/# , it seems to work in IE and Firefox
# Posted on March 10th 2011 by David50
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
David, many thanks for that link. It has solved the problem and I now know what the first couple of posts are about.
I've put a shortcut to Google Translate on my desktop.
# Posted on March 10th 2011 by Trevor Jennings
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
I read every English post above and, without regret skipped, the Irish. Seeking to arouse myself from the stupor I fell into, I went to the translator suggested above and entered the first post. I translated it into Japanese and then the Japanese translation into English. Delighted at the outcome, I tried the same with other languages. The last sentence was translated severally:
"Voting is how I thought it would be in place, I suppose, be careful."
"Voice, but I think I should be I do not know how to make the bed."
"Vote to be taken, I think, but do not know how I would put in place."
Tommy Peoples was translated:
"Tweed Tommy"
"Tommy the people"
"bidding Tommy"
I thought you all might be interested.
# Posted on March 10th 2011 by feardearg
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
I can't believe that people are having a go at someone for posting in Gaelic. No it's not rude in the slightest. Starting a new thread in Gaelic (or for that matter any other language) is not analagous to butting into a conversation and changing the language used (that would in fact be butting into a thread in Gaelic to speak in english). I'm appalled at some of the attitudes displayed by people that I like and respect, I thought that the "speak English like a gentleman" attitude had long died.
Apart from the fact that I think Gaelic (and other languages elsewhere in the world) should be supported against the cultural steamrollers of the economically dominant languages, I don't care if anyone chooses to _start_ a thread in any language be it Gaelic, French, Italian, Hindu or Chinese. Sure there wil be a bigger response if the thread is posted in English but there are doubtless occasions when the subject matter would be more appropriate to another language e.g. a thread about gaelic (which doesn't seem OT in the slightest to me) or where a poster has poor English but wants to find potential contacts or information about Irish music in their own homeland or community.
I think the responses in this thread have set a new low for this forum. Sure there has been some excruciating rudeness and intoleration expressed in many past threads: but to stamp on a thread posted in Gaelic? I don't visit this site as often as I used too, and when I do I spend less time reading the discussions. This thread has made me significantly less inclined to spend time on the forum.
- Chris
# Posted on March 10th 2011 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
There are some very angry people here -
and I do not pretend to get it.
After contemplation, I do not find the use of Irish threatening or frustrating, really. I have not had the displeasure of having a culture thrust upon me unwilling since my school days, so I will express some sympathy for those who bear the scars of their experiences.
I, for one, have tried to move on, as many here have.
Good luck, all, on that.
If the thread is in Irish, or whatever else than english, I simply move on to the next thread and, if I was curious about it, I pray for online translation technology to jump ahead again so I can have it easily reduced to English.
I will liken it to a conversation about banjoes, about which I know little and would like to know more. I cannot really join in, can I?
Someone else will post here on the subject, sooner or later, in English, and then we can share.
Please note: I am NOT saying I "understand" any of this.
# Posted on March 10th 2011 by Piece
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
It seems that perfectly reasonable people can disagree about the boundaries of "netiquette" and utterly fail (and the failure is obviously mine as well) to discuss it in a reasonable way.
On that note, as sort of an instigator of the general unreasonableness, I'm gonna disappear from the boards for a wee while, Bye guys. It's been good fun for the last six years.
# Posted on March 10th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Maybe you might reconsider Silver Spear. As I have previously stated on this thread you are one of the most interesting contributors here.
# Posted on March 10th 2011 by big_tab
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
I'd echo big_tab's comment. I'd rather have TSS's insights than some of the drivel emanating regularly from a couple of the serial posters here and, especially, from the many aliases of that Ballydehob bollix.
# Posted on March 10th 2011 by MacCruiskeen
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
I'm oh so offended by the audacity of a person using the Irish language on a website dedicated to the playing of (largely Irish) peasant music by us english speaking middle class t w a t s that I'm beside myself with indignation. My long "Irish looking sideburns" are frazzled and I'm ready to blow the stupid tweed cap right off me head! Me vest is disheveled and all my AOH buttons are popping right off me old jacket! Gaelige indeed! What's the middle class world of Irish music comming to! JCGMAFB (text speak for JESUSCHRISTGIVEMEAfeckINGBREAK)
HAPPY SAINT PATTY'S DAY!!!! smiles smiles smiles (how d'you make a smile with a gun to its head?)
# Posted on March 10th 2011 by shanty
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
That's not irish enough, shanty -
You failed to slip in a shillelagh, a shamrock, your brother, or alcohol, or dear Father Whoever.
Try again.
(sigh)
And Silver Spear, don't go.
Not over this.
# Posted on March 11th 2011 by Piece
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
It's not peasant either old chap.
# Posted on March 11th 2011 by Rudall the time
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Pessant?
Pezint?
Pezzent?
Pezant?
Work with us here, alld chapp...
# Posted on March 11th 2011 by Piece
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Silver Spear’s departure suggests to me that those who so easily dismissed her views, and those of others like her, did not realise the sincerity with which they were held. I well appreciate the desire of people to protect minority cultures – indeed we are *all* a minority culture on here by some definitions – but sometimes the rush for political correctness blinds people to reason, in the same way that it was argued that I *had* to fall on one side of this discussion or the other. In fact, I felt genuinely torn by it.
Out of curiosity, I have been soliciting the views of people I know regarding the language issue (in a non-contextualised sense). Of the 19 so far asked, 16 said they would consider it rude if someone chose a language, or changed language to one, that not all the participants could understand. More than half also said that they would at least be suspect that the reason was exclusion, if there was no other apparent motive. I askend this without reference to any specific langauge whatsoever.
I have also had issues on a group that I run, where certain individuals joined and then attempted to change the agenda from that stated on the group's home page. It was pointed out that they were at perfect liberty to form their own group with their own rules, but that if you join a club you cannot then, in effect, object to the rules. Regrettably, some of those concerned reacted in a similar way to the recent comments on here.
This is nothing to do with the Irish language and everything to do with courtesy and inclusiveness. Unfortunately, those who shouted us down failed (or chose not ) to make that essential distinction.
Personally, I strongly support the growth and use of minority languages in Britain, be they Scottish or Irish Gaelic, or indeed Welsh or Cornish. Diversity and self-determination is good! So long as it doesn't get in the way of *necessary* cohesion.
While there is no language-specific rule on this site, it *is* by default an English language site for the simple reason that it is most likely to reach out to the maximum number of people in this way.
I do understand the specific historic and/or cultural nerve that those comments may have touched, but when people get over-zealous about their causes, their extremeness tends to alienate some who might otherwise sympathise.
Given that even a large number of Irish people don’t speak Irish (I believe), further excluding those who actually have a genuine interest in Irish music and culture, but for one reason or another do not speak the language, seems pretty counter-productive to me.
But this would not be the first time when such an approach has done more harm than good to the cause being espoused. The intolerance here may not have been as one-sided as was made out during this thread.
Ian
# Posted on March 11th 2011 by ian stock
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Ian, twice I have stated here that I admire Silver Spear and am sorry she has taken a break , Your efforts to make us feel some kind of guilt by being "politically correct" because some of us thought it might be nice to see an Irish language thread every now and then is silly. Proof.. It has happened since and didn't cause race riots or violence in the streets. It was nice to see it and I am grateful to those that suggested it and followed it through.
# Posted on March 11th 2011 by big_tab
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
I would propose that everyone drink a big glass of water and breathe deeply into a paper bag, and maybe take a nap or something.
Someone posts in Irish and someone answers in Irish. I don't speak Irish. What harm is done to me? None at all. What's the big deal? None at all. Is there any reason for this to be an issue? No, not at all.
Now can we please get back to the pointless bickering?
# Posted on March 11th 2011 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Ranga maidin. Cén chaoi a bhfuil mo mhuintir is fearr leat ar domhan sa lá atá inniu?
# Posted on March 11th 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Hyvä. Ja sinä?
Oletko oppinut mitään hyvää musiikkia tapahtumat?
# Posted on March 11th 2011 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Jigit ja kelat? I mean jigs & reels. Is that Finnish?
# Posted on March 11th 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
On. Olen suomalainen. Mutta en puhu suomea.
That's okay, neither do the Finns, very much.
# Posted on March 11th 2011 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
No attempt to make any one feel guilty - simply suggest that there were two contradictory arguments at work, *neither* of which was inherently wrong.
However, I do think that the view of some minorities that, because of that status, they are entitled to iugnore the rules (such as netiquette) that pertain to everyone else - and to which they themselves hitherto objected - deeply undermines their case. Irish is a lovely language, and I respect the culture too - but that does not mean that it is appropriate to use it just anywhere.
# Posted on March 11th 2011 by ian stock
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
If you believe something to be inherently right ,as I did here it follows that I believe those who disagree to be inherently wrong!
# Posted on March 11th 2011 by big_tab
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
An tabber mhór. Cé go bhfuil rudaí i gContae an Chláir lá atá inniu ann?
# Posted on March 11th 2011 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Tá sé ina ghleadhradh báistí
# Posted on March 11th 2011 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
go fuaimeanna mór don cheol. Is mian bhí mé ann ... agus tá mé ag obair air
# Posted on March 11th 2011 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Tab, you might want to contemplate the difference between the meaning of
"I believe this idea is wrong"
and
"I believe this person is wrong"
I have no idea what the point of any of this nattering was meant to be about, or if there was any point or if there weren't as many points as disputants, the whole thing seemed exquisitely devoid of purpose, but what you just said there seems like the most dangerous idea going today, and one shared by the most ideological elements active in politics and religion.
Think about what you just said, and see if you really believe that someone holding an idea which conflicts with one of your own is "inherently wrong".
# Posted on March 11th 2011 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
It is the inability to agree on an 'honorable draw' that so often makes a mountain out of a molehill and prolongs conflict. I will take the risk of pointing out that Ireland is a prime example of this!
My original post pointed out that personally, I could see both sides of the argument, and was torn between them, but apparently that was not a legitimate position. The inability to separate people from arguments has led to one esteemed member leaving. For the record, I believe TSS was arguing on the same platform.
On further reflection, I concluded that *in the context of this website* (and maybe ONLY there) the etiquette argument marginally has the edge over the cultural one. The same would apply to someone starting an English discussion in an identical way on an Irish language website. Many people whose views I have sought seemed to agree.
I was not expecting others to agree, but that does not make me inherently wrong, any more than it makes me inherently right. I tend to think the inabiity to accept compromise weakens the case of those concerned as it fails to accept the undeniable reality that people's views differ.
This issue has at no time made me angry in itself, or with other people - I am arguing a point of principle, though I still consider the OP to be discourteous.
# Posted on March 11th 2011 by ian stock
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Just FYI, the thing you've been talking about where people switch to another language which is unexpected in that particular social situation (and might be considered inappropriate) is called "marked code-switching". Carol Myers-Scotton in the early 1990s said that this depended on certain "RO sets" (Rights and Obligations sets".
Then other linguists criticised her theory of why people choose to do a marked code-switch, saying that it relied too much on the linguist outsider's subjective assessment of the social situation and what is "appropriate" or "inappropriate".
Interesting that the discussion here is kinda tied in with that, but without the alienating terminology!
# Posted on March 12th 2011 by Dr. Dow
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
So basically I think what is happening here is that, because there's always been a culture of speaking English on this forum, both parties would probably agree that a switch to Irish must be a marked one. However, one group is saying "there's a reason why this is marked - we want everyone to be able to understand everyone else all the time!!... just as it has always been" while the other group is saying "ok it's marked, but it needn't be so on a forum - why can't we negotiate a situation where Irish can become unmarked on this forum.. and people who don't understand it can simply ignore it".
I think maybe if there had been more Irish speakers on thesession.org when it first started, and if those speakers had been vocal in Irish, a mini online culture might have developed where both Irish and English were unmarked choices for discussions. I see that more and more threads in Irish are appearing and people are no longer throwing their hands up in horror. Maybe this is a sign that we might see more of it in the future. It'll be interesting to see if its users stop posting in Irish when people stop reacting negatively. Then we might have more of an idea of people's motivation for using it in the first place...
# Posted on March 12th 2011 by Dr. Dow
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
1.Everyone is entitled to their opinion.
2.Everyone else is entitled to disagree with that opinion.
3.The problems seem to begin when there is not merely discretion expressed, but judgement of differing views.
If I ask someone's opinion or perspective and they disagree with me, fine. Else I should not have asked, unless I am only fishing for approval or support.
But should someone further pass judgement on my opinion as right or wrong, moral or immoral, polite or impolite?
So, have there been comments here that have been critical or judgemental, and have they been taken as attacks on a culture or a set of values?
If so, we can do better, I should think.
Peace.
# Posted on March 12th 2011 by Piece
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
I think that when one group objects to Irish as the marked choice, the other group reacts by saying that this objection stems from bigotry. In response, objectors are saying "actually we're not objecting to the language or culture itself (read: its use as the unmarked choice in other social situations such as a pub or home in the Gaeltacht), but rather to its use as the marked choice".
My take on it is that, in the case of receding languages like Irish, speakers have to force marked use of the language to claim back their right to use it in particular social situations. Internet forums are an obvious choice for this push on their part.
# Posted on March 12th 2011 by Dr. Dow
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
A few posts have been bilingual. But not many. Since many languages are used in the comments is there a practical solution to the use of gaeilge (& other languages) on this forum. I'm not sure ignoring a post is a viable option when members know it is possible to use the Google translator, no matter how inaccurate it may be.
# Posted on March 12th 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
I ignore lots of posts, many of them in English.
# Posted on March 12th 2011 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Look , If people hadn't jumped in and given out about the op using Irish this thread wouldnt have 8 responses. I argued for his right to post unhindered. Ian and others say he was being discourteous and I cant understand how he can think this. I find the only discourtesy shown was by those who changed the thread from the original question and gave out about somebody Irish posting in his/her native tongue. Anyway there are nice posts appearing in Irish since and its nice and absolutely no harm to anyone.And we are not talking about you.
# Posted on March 12th 2011 by big_tab
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
It's a choice to read or not read a post. It's a choice to comment or not comment on a post. But an informed choice is different from simply ignoring something.
# Posted on March 12th 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
big_tab--maybe if you ignore them they'll go away....or they'll have trite little threads about how rude the "Irish speakers are". When you defend your use of the language (and you shouldn't have to) you just give them more to talk about. Just ignore them and they'll soon go away and realise how foolish they are.
# Posted on March 12th 2011 by shanty
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
One way or another I'm determined to read this thread. It's painful. (Cheers, The Silver Spear!) Such passionate feelings, from all. Many are determined not to be satisfied with the outcome. Which leaves me with only one option ~ Continue with living!
I don't think there is a best player of Irish dance music. Though, wanting for a choice, perhaps someone who is no longer alive. In which case it's the players I would most like to have heard in their own right. Willie Clancy, Seamus Ennis, Junior Crehan, Micho Russell ....
Bhealach amháin nó eile Tá mé meáite ar snáithe seo a léamh. It's painful. (Bheag, An Silver Spear!) mothúcháin paiseanta sin, ó gach. Tá go leor a chinneadh gan a bheith sásta leis an toradh. Rud a fhágann rogha agam ach amháin ~ Leanúint ar aghaidh le maireachtáil!
Ní dóigh liom go bhfuil imreoir is fearr den cheol rince na hÉireann. Cé, ar mian leo do rogha, b'fhéidir, ar dhuine a bhfuil a thuilleadh beo. Sa chás sin tá sé ar na páirtithe ba mhaith liom buíochas a chuala an chuid is mó as a gceart féin. Willie Clancy, Seamus Ennis, Junior Crehan, Micho Russell ....
# Posted on March 12th 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
And it's nothing to do with being PC or past language usage on thesession.org. It's got to do with the insecurity of being left out. There's a lot of insecurity on this forum. Much more insecurity than anger (if you follow the thread back someone mentioned the anger on the board...)
# Posted on March 12th 2011 by shanty
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Re: The best part seinteoir seinteoireachta Skills?
There's people being left out of these pages? Where ever they are it must be heaven. ;)
Níl daoine a bheith fágtha amach as na leathanaigh seo? Nuair a bhí riamh go bhfuil siad caithfidh sé a bheith neamh. ;)
# Posted on March 12th 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
# Posted on March 12th 2011 by shanty
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
"Which leaves me with only one option ~ Continue with living!"
Don't tell me you're taking off, too? Come to think of it, that's an appealing idea. Maybe I'll take a break as well. I know some will find it a relief....
# Posted on March 12th 2011 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
That would be lol, Jon. No rest for the wicked & I cannot sit idle on the sidelines. I'm in for the duration, or the next sweep of wizardry.
# Posted on March 12th 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Well, I for one am not feeling in the least insecure, and comments to that effect are so wide of the mark as to do no more than further diminish the arguments of those who make them, at least in my own mind.
I am not in the least bit worried whether the posts are actually about non-Irish speakers or not (why would they be?), likewise whether one can/should ignore posts or use translator (I have neither the time nor the inclination) – but that is to miss the point entirely. This is about the nature of the Mustard Board, not the status of the Irish language. On the other hand, it is quite an informative experience to be on the receiving end of linguistic discrimination, something that is not exactly an everyday experience for the average English speaker, I think!
By both inclination and deliberate intention, I always try to present in a balanced and courteous way, even to those with whom I disagree, and it is a shame that the response should be personal implications about my/our state of supposed insecurity. Those who can only see that this is about the insecurity/foolishness of non-Irish speakers should maybe examine *their own* insecurities. It’s a pity that a culture which in the past has legitimately fought against such treatment should choose to use precisely the same tactic when it suits...
Dow, interesting theory you are referring to there, and completely relevant IMO. The criticism of it also seems perfectly reasonable. I think your analysis is also correct – the problem here is not the language per se, but the way in which the issue arose. From what I can see the originator of the OP has only a short record on here, and therefore I think it is reasonable to wonder what the motive was for introducing Irish in such a precipitate and non-consensual way.
Had (s)he first seen fit to introduce a discussion on the merits of making the site bilingual, I think the response would have been entirely different, not least because it would have given people the opportunity to have a proper discussion, and it would have made it possible for the motives and issues to be clearly identified. At present, it looks too much like a political/cultural/trolling hijack. This is not to deny that there is a legitimate case for bilingualism.
The problem here is the imposition of this new situation, which has (or has the potential to) split one reasonably cohesive online community into two – those who belong to an inner circle and those who don’t. I'm not sure I want to belong to that type of community. It is *that* which I object to, and more so the manner in which it was done. I regularly talk to Spear off-list, and without wanting to put words into her mouth, I think that was her objection, too.
At the end of the day, the decision is for one person only – Jeremy – whose views we don’t yet know. If he agreed to bilingual status, then I think no one would have cause to argue, though I still think it would change the feel of the Mustard Board forever. I for one have lost some sense of the ‘community’ to which I thought I was beginning to belong, and which is quite important to those of us at a geographical remove. Into the bargain, a degree of solidarity with those who champion the Irish language has now been lost, so that is counter-productive. Dow, the use of force has to some extent *lost* them support from this quarter.
In the meantime, we can only guess at the motives for those who have suddenly started making new posts in Irish. While I defend the right of anyone to use their own language *in an appropriate situation*, at present, this feels to be nothing more than a deliberate provocation – otherwise why didn’t it happen sooner?
# Posted on March 12th 2011 by ian stock
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
You have lost some sense of community because someone posted in Irish. Sad.
# Posted on March 12th 2011 by big_tab
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Sense of community, virtual or otherwise, depends on shared consciousness. How can one be conscious of something one doesn't understand?
It's marginal on here, but it still has an effect. What's more, you have completely failed, or chosen not, to take in the actual content of my previous post. That says a lot, and you are diluting what sympathy I had for your view by the minute - not that I expect you will be bothered. Talk about shooting your own Cause in the foot!
Tab, I don't know who you are or where you live, as you say nothing about yourself - but try looking at it from the perspective of a non-Irish speaker. After all, the Irish abroad have historically more than understood the value of SHARED culture when living at a distance from the actual thing. Intolerance can flow in ALL directions.
# Posted on March 12th 2011 by ian stock
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
I am not being intolerant of anybody posting anything. You are.
# Posted on March 12th 2011 by big_tab
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
I begin to appreciate Spear's decision. If it weren't for the fact that there are people on here whose conversation I value, and my refusal to be thrown off by people whose only response to reasoned discussion seems to be mud-slinging, I might just have followed suit.
Big Tab, many thanks for your welcome and support for *my* attempt to contribute to global-Irish musical culture.
I hope that you and Fluther are feeling pleased with yourselves.
# Posted on March 12th 2011 by ian stock
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Just because you think your discussion is reasoned and mine isn't doesn't mean you are right. You can post anything you want . Please allow others the same right.
# Posted on March 12th 2011 by big_tab
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
I'm not denying anyone the right to say anything whatsoever - I just think there are issues around HOW it is said. You are in favour of denying people the right to understand. You also seem to be in favour of denying people the right to a democratic decision about this.
# Posted on March 12th 2011 by ian stock
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
I am denying people nothing.
# Posted on March 12th 2011 by big_tab
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
The representatives who would be allowed to make this democratic decison should be Irish speakers and English speakers in equal numbers then, to make it fair, no? I'd be interested to see who would win the vote!
# Posted on March 12th 2011 by Dr. Dow
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Ba cheart votaí a thógaint, is docha, ach níl aon tuairim cén chaoi a chuirfinn é sin i bhfeidhm. .
# Posted on March 12th 2011 by David50
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Should have been in quotes. Risky quoting on the basis of a Google translation but I couldn't resist it.
# Posted on March 12th 2011 by David50
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
David .. That was really good for google translation. Maith an fear Daithícaoga!
# Posted on March 12th 2011 by big_tab
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
big_tab - its the last line of the fluther's original post - I meant that I hoped Google had not let me astray on the meaning. Your turn...
The BBC World Service used to do the news in "Special English" (I think that's what they called it). Less idiomatic for people who did not have it as a first tongue. Maybe you folks should do the same for Google's benefit.
# Posted on March 12th 2011 by David50
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
I really find it very curious that people who would be so interested in this music, would have no interest in knowing more about the culture around it, like language. I find that pretty sad really, it's like doing a clinical excision of one part of a culture and using that for whatever purpose that might serve. Sounds a bit cold, clinical and materialistic. There are so many more dimensions to listening to this music as part of its native culture. I'm really glad I found that part of it, not just the technicalities, and it's probably the reason that I go to Ireland periodically to listen to it and be part of the geography that it comes from.
(Google mightn't have done a good job on the above...so English it is.)
I wonder whether the same criticisms would be made about people posting here in other languages. I doubt it. It seems to me that there is some imperative about these arguments, that if you know English you have to use it; whereas if you can't (speak English), you have some sympathy from the English speakers. Abhorrent.
Play on!
# Posted on March 12th 2011 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Before pressing on with the same line of argument, I wish people would actually bother to ingest that which I was saying previously. There is NO QUARREL with the Irish language nor those who speak it - it is simply an issue to do with the nature of this message board, and your failure to deal with that point suggests to me that you have no answer to it.
Skull, my appreciation of this music is purely aesthetic, and I would like it no matter where it came from; its Irishness is important to me but not pivotally so. And yes, I would have the same views no matter what the language concerned was: in the absence of any other guidelines, by precedent and by implication on its home page, this is an English language forum. (Before I am accused of linguistic imperialism, let me remind that I speak three other languages variously well, and some of my closest personal friendships cross national and language frontiers within Europe. I have my personal linguistic hands more than full with that as it is).
I would object equally to English postings on an Irish language board, despite the fact that, on reflection, the situations would not be direct parallels. So far as I know there is no one in Ireland who does not speak good English, and therefore English speakers do not exclude Irish speakers in the manner that happens the other way round when Irish is spoken. That is self-evident.
But I do object to the unilateral manner in which some contributors have decided to exclude the rest from certain portions of the discussion, and by extension, the shared experience of belonging here. I find this inconsiderate and divisive to say the least. Likewise the implication that the answer is to learn Irish. If it continues, it risks changing the nature of the Mustard Board profoundly, possibly against the will of the majority.
I see no reason why I should have any less expectation of being able to access all discussions that I choose on this board than anyone else; to claim otherwise is blatant discrimination. This is not to deny the right of people to speak Irish - just to say that IMO this IS NOT THE PLACE FOR IT. The subject matter of the forum is immaterial.
This is not a matter of personal choosing on the part of non Irish speakers: it has been forced by those with an agenda who started this issue rolling. As I said earlier, the irony of that is not lost on me, and frankly, if that is the way speakers of minority languages feel they need to behave, then it doesn't surprise me in the least when they meet indifference or hostility in the wider world. Their languages need to exist on equal terms with all others - and that includes accepting situations when they are inappropriate, otherwise it looks suspiciously like dog-in-the-manger. There are limits to how far a 'special case' can be made to stretch.
However, in the absence of guidance from Jeremy, I would like to suggest an informal protocol that I think would at least defuse the issue and accommodate both views:
If this site is to continue to be bi (or multi) lingual, then:
1) Individual threads should continue in the language in which they were originated, i.e. should be monolingual within themselves.
2) Given that the default for the site is in English, original posts in other languages should contain an English translation of the subject matter, such that others can judge whether they wish to go to the trouble of translating. This would then at least permit all-comers to be aware what was being discussed, even if they weren't able actually to take part.
I can see why the Irish speakers think a vote would not be 'fair', though quite why it wouldn't I don't know: if most people were to vote to continue in English only, that surely says something, and I can't for the life of me see why it would be invalid - or are some people's votes worth less than others'? If the vote went in favour of multi-lingualism, then I for one would have no further objection.
But perhaps a voluntary code of conduct would stand a better chance of working.
I am afraid that I have found this to be a salutory lesson in what it is like to deal with people who refuse to see the other's side - again the specific irony is not lost on me. Earlier today I earnestly tried to encourage a consensual resolution to this matter - and I am trying again now. The fact that people from some quarters refused to see the other side of the argument and have just slung mud in return, speaks volumes.
# Posted on March 12th 2011 by ian stock
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
The resolution here is:
to accept that the "majority" doesn't govern this site,
to tolerate diversity, and
to learn the language governing conversations into which you want to insert yourself.
# Posted on March 12th 2011 by ∅
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Check mate.
# Posted on March 12th 2011 by big_tab
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Big_tab, is that your purpose?
~ Check mate ~
# Posted on March 12th 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Ben.. My purpose is the same as yours. To freely discuss music here and join in those threads that interest me. Ian is trying to stop people doing that and I have spent two days trying to say what the guy/girl with the arabic looking name has said so succintly and brilliantly.
# Posted on March 12th 2011 by big_tab
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Ian, is it true; what big_tab says about what you are trying to do?
# Posted on March 12th 2011 by Ben Steen
~
If Google has not lead me astray, big_tab, this may help;
http://www.omniglot.com/writing/pali.htm
# Posted on March 12th 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Ben, categorically not.
I have made my desire plain - to try to resolve an intractable issue. I am still not sure whether the OP was a troll or not, though they have been conspicuously absent from the rest of the discussion.
I took little part in this, until it seemed to me that a perfectly reasonable argument being made by people whose views I respect was being ignored, as indeed they still are. To some extent I agree with those views, though I also sympathise with the pro-Gaelic side as well, in as much as I can understand the sensitivities that minority languages engender.
It is the regrettable failure of the pro-Gaelic side even to concede other people's differing opinions that does incense me. Even then I have tried to propose a reasonable compromise, only for it to be categorically rejected. I certainly do not see this as a game of chess.
So much for the tolerance that was being preached at me.
# Posted on March 12th 2011 by ian stock
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
>> To freely discuss music here and join in those threads that interest me
In order for that to be possible *on an equal footing* for all on this forum, there has to be a common language. It is not ME seeking to restrict free discussion.
Or have we now decided that despite all the assurances that Irish music is now an equal-access global commodity that some of us are indeed to be second-class citizens? Irish music may be a global export, but the Irish langauge is not.
But why kiss and make up when you can prolong a good spat?
# Posted on March 12th 2011 by ian stock
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
I have just done what I vowed not to do and press the translate button on the OP. The question was so bland I am all the more of the opinion that its main purpose was indeed to stir up the linguistic hot-house.
# Posted on March 12th 2011 by ian stock
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Ian, I agree that sort of question is far beyond redundant on this forum. In fairness, the board isn't fair, & there are no votes. Just our opinions & the final vote of the one.
However, there are some Irish speakers on the forum who have posted some comments on the board, in gaeilie, which I would like to know what is being said. The google translator is a poor substitute for understanding what some means when using their native language.
Having said that, there have also been a few comments posted in gaeilge which seem to be from those recently learning the language. So, I appreciate when some of these are bilingual ~ giving both the gaeilige as well as the english. That may be a compromise for some. Though, for me it helps in my understanding of the meaning of what others say.
Cheers,
Ben
p.s.
Minor excursion here. I looked up Nepali Proverbs, chose one, & inserted in the Google translator to see the Hindi text;
मौका आता है, लेकिन अभी भी ताजा है ना
"Opportunity comes but does not linger"
How does it look अनिच्चा?
# Posted on March 12th 2011 by Ben Steen
I will do my best to type this one word with correct spelling
gaeilge
Is this the correct spelling for the language otherwise known as irish? Is it capitalised when written in Gaeilge? Is it capitalised when written in English (english?)?
# Posted on March 13th 2011 by Ben Steen
I actually attempted to answer the original question earlier in the post. For one of those musicians I wish to correct my spelling of his name. Should have been ~ Séamus Ennis.
# Posted on March 13th 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
I know the pub analogy has its problems, but in a pub there are some conversations that clearly open to everyone in earshot and some that are few people discussing something that is audible to all but they are engaging in it in a way that at the very least requires a newcomer to hang back for a while to be sure they can join in without spoiling things. There are also genuinly private conversations that it is rude even listen to but they are not relevant to the anology.
The way the recent comments page works here one can be drawn to a discussion part way through. I still think it requires one to then assess the appropriatness of joining in. Also some peoples posts are suffiently distinctive for us to know who is 'speaking' from the couple of lines in the recent comments page. All the more reason to check the context before joining in.
I don't care what language people post in. Using another language to be 'exclusive' won't work now because those who don't speak it can butt in on the basis of a machine translation that will probably be good enough to show the context. I think joining in without at least doing that is unfair to the OP.
So it just comes down to manners.
# Posted on March 13th 2011 by David50
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
I was going to add by means of general comment, one of my best friends is from Basel. He is an English teacher, and his wife and son also speak good English. While my wife and I both have some German, we don't have any Basler-Swiss-German, which in any case is very different, and they don't expect us to have - we just work in English. While we are both working at our German, it is very unlikely that Baslerdych will ever form part of our language capabilities, and without the current compromise, a good friendship simply would never have taken root.
On the other hand, nobody has any problems when the three of them are talking amongst themselves, even at the dinner table, if they use their native tongue. We trust them enough to know that they are not being rude - and they immediately switch back to English when the conversation again involves us or others who don't speak Swiss German. Even mid-conversation, when the audience changes, so does the language. I have even heard German Swiss and French Swiss conversing in English where it was the practical thing to do.
I think this is familiar to many people round the world who speak less-common languages, certainly most Scandinavians seem happy with it from what I can tell. This is what I mean by Irish taking its place on equal terms.
# Posted on March 13th 2011 by ian stock
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
I have no wish to butt in on anyone else's discussion where I have nothing to add and/or don't know the context, and it isn't what I did here. I have no intention of trying to sabotage any Irish language threads.
I agree that bilingual posts remove the problem, but at a cost in time and effort to the poster.
# Posted on March 13th 2011 by ian stock
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
When I mentioned bilingual posts I was thinking of only one post which I read this week. It was added by someone who is learning gaeilge. To me it seemed very respectful for everyone concerned. Potentially any learner will make mistakes. Since the gaeilge was that of a learner, the posting in english helps everyone in their understanding. That's a very wordy way of saying, in that instance a bilingual posted was spot on.
# Posted on March 13th 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Talking about your friends"if they use their native tongue. We trust them enough to know that they are not being rude" That's not insecure Ian? Hahahaha....
Ian, could you please write some more rules and protocals for standards of behavior here on Jeremy's website. You only gave us two and I think you can do much better. I would imagine a mind like yours could come up with at least 100 odd rules improving the site. . Maybe a two week suspension for a sentence in Gaelic, three weeks for a paragragh and an entire month for a topic post. That'd teach the bastards! But you work out the details and post it . And talk more about voting here on thesession.orgThat was pretty funny too!
And I thought this place was getting boring....
# Posted on March 13th 2011 by shanty
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
I'll also add this-my wife's family is Hispanic. Many of them are bilingual. It has never occured to me, in any setting, that they are talking about me when they converse in Spanish. You seem like a nice person but you are dead wrong on this. Let people have the joy of conversing in any language they choose. It does no harm to anyone and can only enrich. We aren't talking about politics or culture-just a silly website about playing jigs and reels.No big deal.
# Posted on March 13th 2011 by shanty
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Ditto shanty's last post.
Well, not quite. My wife's family isn't hispanic, but there's no reason to be paranoid just because other people are talking in a language you don't understand. Even if they're snickering and casting furtive glances....
# Posted on March 13th 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Shanty, there is much sense in your second post, only unfortunately diminished by the silliness of your first. When an argument descends to taking personal pot-shots at the opposition, then you can normally bet it is covering for a lack of better reasoning.
How else was I to explain the situation with my friend? Yes, I agree it comes across as a bit artificial, but you have my assurance that it is not. That was the whole point.
Neither am I attempting to lay down rules for the MB - I simply offered what seemed like a constructive solution to an issue that can clearly inflame. If it is not wanted, fair enough - though one can only wonder why. The current alternative scenario is hardly a balanced resolution...
As for being 'dead wrong', well maybe, but I am still waiting to hear a good reason why. Frankly, the whole issue is a storm in a teacup and I am really not that bothered if some people want to hive off and form a group within a group on occasions. From the content of the OP, we certainly won't be missing much anyway. But to deny that it WILL have an effect, or that others WILL disagree is plain idiocy.
I will repeat once again, FWIW, I have not the slightest objection to people conversing about anything whatsoever, in any language they choose, but that will not stop me from considering it rude and inconsiderate if they do it without the due regard for others that they claim so strongly for themselves. It is such self-indulgent righteousness that gets minority causes a bad name. That is what I objected to.
In this instance 'due regard for others' involves all of those who are now potentially excluded from parts of the MB in a way that AFAIK has never happened before. I have no idea whether that bothers the silent many or not, but whatever the rights or wrongs, if it continues or grows, then the resultant fragmentation WILL substantially alter the nature of this virtual community, in my opinion for the worse.
If people want to talk in Irish, there is nothing in this world to stop them from setting up as many of their own spaces as they want where they can do it, so the idea of my trying to stifle discussion is clearly rubbish. I'm flattered that you think I have that much influence! But to do it on here is to alter the implicit 'terms of engagement' unilaterally - and that, as a point of principle, is not democratic, consensual, nor fair. So I don't see why those who disagree should accept it.
The failure to face up to the practical implications, let alone acknowledge that it is even valid for people to disagree, further impoverishes the bilingual case. I am still waiting to hear any reason other than 'because we say so' why those of a different view should accept the bilingual case. That leads not to checkmate, but stalemate. Big Tab's analogy was another insight into the poverty of his actual argument - more about scoring points than arriving at a satisfactory solution.
I don't see the point in going round in circles on this. At the end of the day, there are far worse things happening in the world at present - but without considerate, reasoned discussion, a board like this will only ever be a place for bickering, that diminishes what ought to be a pleasurable pastime. Poly-lingualism WILL only fragment it. I can well understand why people no longer wish to participate under such terms - why would people want to particpate in something run on such arbitrary and divisive lines?
Oh, maybe I have just noticed something...
# Posted on March 13th 2011 by ian stock
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Ian , You keep saying I am being intolerant and stuff. You would think it was me who came onto this thread trying to stop people posting in Irish and laying down a list of rules for us.
# Posted on March 13th 2011 by big_tab
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Big Tab - what is so difficult about the concept that by switching langauge, you automatically take out anyone who, Google aside, cannot understand? Even if the will is there, learning Gaelige is not going to help those people in the short term.
What is so difficult about seeing that some people might not like having their hand forced in this way? Especially when we all know that it is perfectly possible for you to communicate in the shared language if you choose? If people *could not* speak English, then the situation would be entirely different.
Until you can stop reading what you want to see in my posts (as your last comment aptly shows) and start looking at what I am actually saying, we will get no further with this.
# Posted on March 13th 2011 by ian stock
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
I f(ckin hate that "if people could not speak English" sh*te.Its the likes of that colonial attitude that we have had to put up with for hundreds of years. Let people post in Irish and just ignore it if it so painful for you.
# Posted on March 13th 2011 by big_tab
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Wil probably get suspended again now . Will it have been worth it? 100% yes.
# Posted on March 13th 2011 by big_tab
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
This is Jeremy's forum and he's only going to allow discussions he can moderate. I don't think he has enough Irish to moderate a lot of threads conducted in it.
Maybe if somebody fluent in Irish volunteered to help out, following his guidelines, it might work.
Doesn't bother me to have messages I can't understand turning up in a thread.
# Posted on March 13th 2011 by Jack Campin
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
My apologies Big Tab, that my last post might have sounded impatient. It was not meant to be.
I honestly understand why people might see what I am saying as intolerant. I am entirely sympathetic to the back-story of your last post. I can well see WHY people would see this as English colonialism, and I have had my suspicions that this was actually the real objection here all along.
"If people could not..." was simply to say that one can hardly blame people for not functioning in languages they don't know. Same would apply absolutely anywhere. It would change this situation fundamentally if there were non-English speakers present.
But I have tried hard to point out that that is not the case. Irish posts are not in the least painful to me - I FULLY SUPPORT the right of minority cultures to do things their own way - but that does not mean they have any more right to impinge on others than others do on them. To expect otherwise is to weaken their own case for equal treatment.
In all mature multi-lingual situations, where possible, the language is chosen to accommodate the intended audience. The only logical conclusion for doing otherwise is that those who cannot follow are no longer considered to be part of that audience. That might be a valid cause for objection. It is also undeniable that the lingua franca on this website IS English (or at least has been so far...)
Yes, I suppose it is intolerant, in a way, to deny people the right to use what language they want wherever they want - but it is MORE intolerant for those who have the choice of language to remove, on a whim, the right of access from those who for whatever reasons do not have that same choice. It is also intolerant to deny that other people might reasonably hold varying views on this, which has happened here by the refusal to engage with those views.
No one is denying the right of people to speak Irish, it is just that IMO, by insisting on doing it here is actually committing a greater intolerance.
I would not want to see you suspended.
Ian
p.s. I am no apologist for my country's colonial historical record, there is much to be ashamed of and not only in Ireland, but using it as baggage to deny others fair treatment in the present day is not very honourable either.
# Posted on March 13th 2011 by ian stock
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Ian, I wish you wouldn't try and speak for all the non-Irish-speaking community here. I for one do not speak Irish, but I disagree with your views entirely. I don't think you realise how much you've been affected by political and cultural norms and commonly held (but misguided) beliefs that have imperialist roots. As long as people cling on to these beliefs and can't imagine a better and more tolerant world where biased, unfair norms can be challenged and changed to give everyone an equal voice, there's no hope for minority cultures and therefore ultimately no hope for the rest of us either
Big_tab, unfortunately these sorts of attitudes that you're having to deal with here are held by the majority of people -- and, crucially, that includes the Irish themselves. This is why I said that Irish is "doomed". People allow themselves to be blinkered and it's too much for Irish speakers to fight against imo. In the end, the dominant culture will most likely win unless things change drastically in the future. These language attitudes feed into a delicate vicious circle, which influences actual language choices on the ground, and which plays out down the generations, fragmenting the substance and structures of the language itself. Sheep follow the rest of the flock and do what seems best at the time. People have jobs to do and mouths to feed so they'll do whatever they need to do to get by and develop themselves in a material sense, even if it means abandoning their culture. The ridiculous sounding statements made by naysayers eventually become self-fulfilling prophecies. This may not be the case for you personally, but if a speaker is told often enough that they shouldn't be allowed to speak their language because it's not important enough, eventually they come to believe it as true. Then so do their friends... and their kids... and their kids' kids. It's sad, isn't it?
# Posted on March 13th 2011 by Dr. Dow
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Thanks Dr. I have come to realise here that we are not far apart in our view of the language situation. I am way more optimistic than you though. In Ireland now , although reviled by many, the language is pretty cool and fun to speak. Many of the mainstream tv broadcasters have come up through TG4 and are gaeilgeoirí and proud of it. I think if an someone who had emigrated from Ireland in the 60's was to come back they would be surprised how much of it is to be heard in mainstream life and how much more relaxed and fun it is.
# Posted on March 13th 2011 by big_tab
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
I think that is right about how Irish language is seen as 'cool' now in Ireland (and elsewhere). I would not necessarily agree with the view that it is doomed. The Irish language (and others no doubt) have had such an affect on the perspective and personality of a culture, that those who are bought up in it, even it they speak another language will never cease to imagine where this cultural milieu comes from...and they know they have a native language which has given rise to it. There will be a significant proportion of people who will keep seeing that out. That's what is happening in Ireland, I think, more so in some parts than others no doubt, but that's the same as it has been for a long time.
# Posted on March 13th 2011 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
>>be surprised how much of it is to be heard in mainstream life and how much more relaxed and fun it is
...which is surely as it should be. Gaelige is, after all, a recognised EU language, and the more Irish (and others) who speak it the better, IMO. But there are so many languages in the world that nobody can hope to speak them all.
>> I wish you wouldn't try and speak for all the non-Irish-speaking community here.
Dow, I don't purport to, though fair point, I can see that it might seem like that. We can but speak for ourselves, as indeed you are doing now. Surely that doesn't rule out observations about things that *might* be deemed to be points of principle, though? The way is always open for others to disagree.
We, all of us, can only speak from the perspective we have, while doing our best to understand or accept those who differ. It is the latter phrase that is the salient one, and should surely apply to us all. I don't think it has, here. I believe I have tried hard to balance the views of both sides here, each of which I have some sympathy with, but I still feel that one side has been misinterpreted (deliberately or otherwise) at every turn. That, to me, does not seem like a fair debate.
>>unfair norms can be challenged and changed to give everyone an equal voice
In principle, I couldn't agree more, but it depends on how you intepret that; for example, is positive discrimination (always/ever) justified? You can't simultaneoulsy argue for equality AND positive discrimination. Agreed, the one might perhaps eventually lead to the other, but it is a risky road to tread. And who is to arbitrate?
How is it 'giving everyone an equal voice' to choose a language that only some participants understand? That is irrespective of what the specific languages in any one situation actually are.
# Posted on March 13th 2011 by ian stock
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Hordes of Gaeilgeoirí aren't going to be posting here. For the love of God you don't even find many trad musicians living in Ireland or in Irish communities posting here. Being blunt, thesession.org is good for looking up the odd tune and "seeing what the eejits have got up to" and there are at least three blogs/discussion boards over here that cover the trad scene with far more insight, nuance and craic.
# Posted on March 13th 2011 by The Hurler on the Ditch
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
the important difference is that using another language here in at this point in time is not actually exclusive with the ready availability of fairly good translate software at the press of a button (google translate). In the past, possibly it was a barrier to understanding, but that is not valid any longer in the software age.
# Posted on March 13th 2011 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Are we saying that Gaelige speakers should be given special consideration here? What would happen our Indian, Swiss, Japanese, Polish and other members all insisted on the same opportunity? They are all linguistic minorities here.
Is the fact that the subject matter relates to Ireland at all relevant?
# Posted on March 13th 2011 by ian stock
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
"In all mature multi-lingual situations, where possible, the language is chosen to accommodate the intended audience."
I don't get into that situation often, but the last time it happened, there were three first languages on the go. There were several 'side discussions' in each and, because of the distribution of technical skills and 'factional interests', some were and some were not between people sharing a first language. The purpose being to check on understanding of something or agree on a way of presenting an issue clearly. To reduce the risk of misunderstandings.
Make it four languages - body language was helpful (and increases my count to two). Not having that here causes problems amongst those with english as their first language. How about the rest of you ?
# Posted on March 13th 2011 by David50
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Are you all still on about this?
It's not a problem, people. Post stuff. Respond to stuff. If you don't understand it, ignore it or ask about it if you're curious.
Don't you all have tunes to be playing?
# Posted on March 13th 2011 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
David, I fear I seemed to generalise too much in the way I worded that. Yes, it doesn't always work, especially where abilities fail. The most amazing experience I ever had was in the translation department of the International Olympic Committee in Lausanne (I had a friend who worked there). Daily conversation consisted of a mind-blowing cocktail of about five different languages, all of which were so thoroughly mixed that thay had in effect become one...
Nonetheless, it was done in the full knowledge that all of those involved were able to participate and therefore no one was excluded.
# Posted on March 13th 2011 by ian stock
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Ha Jon, count yourself lucky I left the language/music discussion on Friday to go hear some people playing tunes
# Posted on March 13th 2011 by David50
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Jon - you're right. But let's not forget that the OP was seen as incendiary at the time.
Session coming up in a couple of hours' time. Must get this marking done first...
# Posted on March 13th 2011 by ian stock
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
el gringo es paranoica
Is é an gringo paranoid
der Gringo ist paranoid
y gringo yn paranoid
Gringo là hoang tưởng
وغرينغو هو المذعور
грінго на параною
Goddamnit! that's fun!
# Posted on March 13th 2011 by shanty
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
En tout probabilité, Shanty. C’est ça ce qui me fait rester sain d'esprit.
# Posted on March 13th 2011 by ian stock
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Il est toujours plus facile d’écarter les choses qu’on ne comprend pas, ou qu’on n'est pas d'accord dans cette façon.
# Posted on March 13th 2011 by ian stock
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Cuir logh mo chuid scríbhneoireachta dona as gaeilge. Ach Gabhaim buíochas libh go léir as scríobh as gaeilge. Is teanga álainn, agus is cuid thábhachtach de an chultúr atá tugtha dom an ceol álainn. Nuair a scríobhann amháin as gaeilge, cuidíonn sé liom a thuiscint níos fearr. Ar an drochuair, ní chuireann sé cabhrú liom le fuaimniú. Ach beidh mé in ann an méid is féidir liom a fháil. Scríobh mé seo ag baint úsáide as Google-Gaeilge.
# Posted on March 13th 2011 by fidkid
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Ian,The only point you've made is that you feel it's rude to post in Gaelic. You think it excludes non Irish speakers. You've written a lot but that's all you've said. Like so many people on this board you use lots of words to say a (very)little. The opposition isn't dismissing or ignoring your 'argument' -just saying we don't agree with you. To me the reaction by people has been beyond bizzarre. I've always had the impression that a lot of the people on here are stuffy upper middle class throw overs from academic classical music circles--each one a strange incarnation of a Diddley-playing Basil Fawltey. This thread proves, to me, that I'm not far off the mark!
# Posted on March 13th 2011 by shanty
मौका आता है, लेकिन अभी भी ताजा है ना
# Posted on March 13th 2011 by Ben Steen
Der er noget råddent i Danmark
# Posted on March 13th 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Lovely image of Diddley-playing Basil Fawlteys, shanty! I've suspected dyspepsia, gout, and maybe tooth ache have influenced or propelled some of the individuals who've posted in so many of the other discussions in the past too. (smiley face emoticon) My own problem would seem to be unhealthy concentrations of methyl mercury in my enviornment. (Would that I could have said that in Irish.) While we're at it, what's the Irish for hypertension do you suppose?
# Posted on March 13th 2011 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
irish shud be got rid of its nearly like chinese
and totally useless othside the counrty and
been forced to learn it is terrieble
# Posted on March 13th 2011 by alim010
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Shanty, to be quite honest, this thread has almost exhausted any interest I have in being part of this board. No doubt that will be taken the wrong way too and I will be seen as a spoiler.
I feel some debt to people on here for helping me to get my personal musical life revived, and teaching me much. It is now doing well.
Yes, I have repeated myself ad nauseam here and I am as sick of it as anyone else. I only did it because the point was clearly not being understood, and people kept coming back with miscomprehensions. I suppose I should learn not to worry other people's bones quite so much, but to reduce what I have tried to say to "It's rude to post in Gaelic" is still nowhere near accurate.
I really don't see any point in rehearsing it yet again, it's all there anyway. I am bone weary of the whole thing myself and if people can't get my point now, they never will. Most probably don't want to anyway.Entirely fair enough.
We had a good sesison this evening. Right now I feel inclined just to go off and play the music that this is all meant to be about in my own way and my own circle and trouble people no longer.
# Posted on March 14th 2011 by ian stock
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Is breá le gach duine ina banríon drámaíochta.
# Posted on March 14th 2011 by ∅
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
I assume you're referring to Ian Stock, अनिच्चा?
# Posted on March 14th 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Ian, disagreeing with you does not mean that I don't understand your argument! It's not as complicated as you think. Imagine what would have happened had no one said 'boo' about a post in Irish. Four or five posts later it would have disappeared into the shadowy nether world of session.org past. Possibly it would have gone on for more posts had the reaction not turned it into this....and what harm would it have caused? Can you answer that? Of course the answer is 'none.' Any other and you are not being honest.
# Posted on March 14th 2011 by shanty
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Is breá le gach duine ina banríon drámaíochta?
# Posted on March 14th 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Que?
# Posted on March 14th 2011 by shanty
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
About five years ago, a friend and I set up a forum in another hobby area. It aimed to cater for a minority interest which was not being addressed by the two existing hobby groups. We carefully set up a homepage that clearly defined the group’s remit, and asked people to think before joining - and it eventually became quite influential within that hobby.
Membership grew, but a problem arose: despite our membership-by-application policy, more and more people joined who, while claiming to subscribe to the remit, on becoming members clearly had such different ideas about its scope as effectively to render it meaningless.
Eventually, the point arose when the newer members actually turned on the original ones and quite nastily attacked them for continuing discussions in precisely the way the group had originally been intended for, but which were subsequently labelled elitist (i.e. trying to aspire to technical and interpretational standards that not everyone was bothered about).
It was very difficult to stop this since they were numerous, and technically breaking no rules – but it led to the complete loss of the group’s identity, as it increasingly splintered into informal factions who disregarded the original remit - and each other's feelings - at will. Eventually most of the founder-members did in fact leave.
Today, the group still exists, but it is effectively moribund. There is no suggestion of deliberate destructiveness, simply that people believed that they were entitled unilaterally to interpret the ‘terms of membership’ precisely as they pleased, with no regard for anyone else, nor for its effect on the dynamic of the group. The fact that the majority already had two other groups where they were able to conduct their wider business, was not enough to prevent thoughtless indiscriminates destroying the minority group too.
This is not a watertight parallel to the recent issue here – but the consequences of small numbers taking it upon themselves unilaterally to alter the terms of a group can have unexpected consequences. All it took was something that drove a wedge down the middle of the community.
I would not like to see something similar happen to The Session. That is all I have been saying. Shanty, maybe I did over-estimate the risks; maybe I did get bogged down in *why* I thought the behaviour was unreasonable; maybe I just like being a drama queen.
But the foregoing was my real point. Nothing specifically to do with the Irish language at all.
# Posted on March 14th 2011 by ian stock
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
These new guys are terrible bullies. Posting in Irish. So threatening.
# Posted on March 14th 2011 by big_tab
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Big Tab. I am not going to go round all this yet again - but your ignorant, pig-headed refusal to give any credibility whatsoever to *anyone* who has a different viewpoint, tells me all I need to know. If you can really do no more than distort my words, it says a lot about the paucity of your own argument. Clearly, MY argument is simply beyond you.
Please do not reply. So far as I am concerned this thread is closed.
When did you have your empathy by-pass?
# Posted on March 15th 2011 by ian stock
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Ian, I'm sorry I can't let it drop. It seems that yours and others (a few I'm surprised at) reaction was so off base it defies logic. Of course It provides me with a little (much needed) comic relief after slaving for the man 8-14 hours a day but it also teaches me about people. I've learned, here on thesession.org, a little bit about banjo's, a little bit about bodhrans, a little bit about Irish music, some stuff about modes and temperments but I've learned LOADS about people. I, again, ask that you just ponder what would've happened had everyone just shut up and let the few folks who did post in Irish to do so uninterupted by anyone else.
I wonder if you think that by your protest you have helped to save or preserve something which clearly exists only in your mind. Crusaders like that have been very dangerous in the course of human history.....please ponder this I'm now trying to help-not trying to be a dick(that was yesterday). What was your other website about? Could I have a link. I'm curious, based on your story and the subject of this debate....
# Posted on March 15th 2011 by shanty
Re: An seinteoir is fearr ar thaobh scilleanna seinteoireachta?
Dia ár sabháil,
Bhí mé ar mo laethanta saoire agus ní raibh mé ar líne ar feadh cupla seachtaine anois -agus tá an argoint seo ag dhul ar aghaidh go foill!!! Tá 'hard-on' ag an t-uasal stock don Ghaeilge, nach bhfuil?
Tá sé an-simplí -labhair an teanga agus maireann sí. Is cuma faoin na fathanna casta atá ag an cuid eile.
Ádh mór oraibh go léir
# Posted on March 27th 2011 by Mac Donn