The Session >> Discussions >> News on the stolen Stradivarius Violin (Dec 2010 discussion)
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News on the stolen Stradivarius Violin (Dec 2010 discussion)
News on the stolen Stradivarius Violin (Dec 2010 discussion)
He should have stuck to nicking lead....!
Thieves who stole a £1.2 million Stradivarius violin tried to sell it for £100 to a man sitting next to them in an internet café, a court heard today.
The previous day, Irish traveller John Maughan, 40, had used two teenage accomplices to act as decoys so that he could snatch the instrument from under the nose of acclaimed musician Min-Jin Kym as she ate in a Pret a Manger at Euston station.
Miss Kym, 32, who is signed to record label Sony BMG, bought the violin 10 years ago for £750,000. It is valued at £1.2 million but her insurance only covers the £750,000 she paid for it.
The instrument, which was made in 1696, was in a black case that also contained a Peccatte bow worth £62,000 and another made by the Bazin school valued at more than £5,000.
The violin, which has not been recovered, was stolen on November 29 and the thieves were arrested four weeks later after Maughan was identified following an appeal on Crimewatch.
The court heard Dublin-born Maughan had more than 40 aliases, 26 different dates of birth and more than 65 convictions, 59 of them for theft.
Today the thieves all pleaded guilty to a single count of theft but Judge Deva Pillay adjourned sentencing and warned them: "All options are open. Inevitably there is going to be, I suspect, one of custody."
Maughan was remanded in custody while the teenagers, who were not forced to stand in the dock for the hearing, were released on bail until they are sentenced on a date yet to be set.
Re: News on the stolen Stradivarius Violin (Dec 2010 discussion)
"The instrument is valued at......". Well, maybe.
The value of an instrument, IMNSHO, is what someone will pay for it at any moment.
As I sometimes complain, you do get people on ebay and elsewhere who won't list an instrument ( well, okay, that's my interest ) at less than the minimum they are prepared to sell it for, whereas if they put a much lower start price you might get a feeding frenzy of people suddenly getting all excited about it, aat which point you suddenly see the true worth of something ( or, arguably, maybe not ) , what somebody is prepared to pay for it.
None of this has anything to do with the true intrinsic worth of the instrument, the pleasure it gives in the playing and the hearing of it, which is an altogether different kettle of fish.
This violin, for instance, simply by virtue of its age and rarity, has a high value. But does anyone suggest that modern instrument makers cannot, with all the centuries of learning tat have gone on since, NOT make an instrument that will mature into as fine a one as this old master ? And are these valued at a million+ ?
Re: News on the stolen Stradivarius Violin (Dec 2010 discussion)
They might have just dumped it somewhere knowing it was hot property. Creates an opportunity for a modern luthier to make a top quality replacement (for about 1/600th of the value)
Re: News on the stolen Stradivarius Violin (Dec 2010 discussion)
Maths wrong - I mean 1/60th. I read an article that said that a soloist should be able to get a violin made for something like £20,000 that would rival one by Amati, Stradivari or Guarneri.
Re: News on the stolen Stradivarius Violin (Dec 2010 discussion)
Stradivari made about 1200 instruments in his very long life, the vast majority violins. Only about 600 still exist, and, with remarkably few exceptions, their current ownerships are well documented.
There are also a few hundred, perhaps a thousand or so other violins from Stradivari's era, by a variety of other makers which could, in sporting terms, also be considered premiership material. With such a small number it is not surprising that market economics prevail, but in the case of Stradivari and one or two others being pushed to the ridiculous levels of the high art world by the antics of collectors in auctions.
RichardB makes a very good point. A few years ago I had the opportunity to play for a few minutes a replica Stradivari cello owned by a freelance professional cellist in my area. The cellist paid £15,000 several years previously for it to be made by a specialist luthier in Italy. The appearance of that instrument hasn't been "antiqued", but the sound is as authentic as you can get.
In the USA there is a professional violin soloist who owns a Guarneri. He has had an exact replica made (wear marks, scratches, dings and all), to the extent that they cannot be distinguished visually or by sound, but a good player can tell by playing that one feels "newer" than the other. The cost of that replica was a tiny fraction of the value of the real Guarneri.
I think we can conclude that the authentic Stradivari/Guarneri sound will still be around in many years to come, even though the originals will have deteriorated (as they indeed must) until they can only live on in museum display cases.
Re: News on the stolen Stradivarius Violin (Dec 2010 discussion)
gam, I hope that was just a joke; Oldstrings was asking a rhetorical question. Incidentally, "being tempted" isn't of itself being dishonest; it's the falling into the temptation that is.
Re: News on the stolen Stradivarius Violin (Dec 2010 discussion)
Oh Gam and Piece...get a life. Are you telling me that in the bubble you live in you have never taken advantage of having a joke? Who are you to judge someone from what they say? If that is the case I can judge that you are both uptight and sadly lacking the prerequisite sense of humour necessary to play this music and put life into it. Wunch of Bankers...
Re: News on the stolen Stradivarius Violin (Dec 2010 discussion)
I'd have given him £100 for it. Took the day off work, played it for a day, then got in touch with the police and given it back. And probably got a reward.
News on the stolen Stradivarius Violin (Dec 2010 discussion)
News on the stolen Stradivarius Violin (Dec 2010 discussion)
He should have stuck to nicking lead....!
Thieves who stole a £1.2 million Stradivarius violin tried to sell it for £100 to a man sitting next to them in an internet café, a court heard today.
The previous day, Irish traveller John Maughan, 40, had used two teenage accomplices to act as decoys so that he could snatch the instrument from under the nose of acclaimed musician Min-Jin Kym as she ate in a Pret a Manger at Euston station.
Miss Kym, 32, who is signed to record label Sony BMG, bought the violin 10 years ago for £750,000. It is valued at £1.2 million but her insurance only covers the £750,000 she paid for it.
The instrument, which was made in 1696, was in a black case that also contained a Peccatte bow worth £62,000 and another made by the Bazin school valued at more than £5,000.
The violin, which has not been recovered, was stolen on November 29 and the thieves were arrested four weeks later after Maughan was identified following an appeal on Crimewatch.
The court heard Dublin-born Maughan had more than 40 aliases, 26 different dates of birth and more than 65 convictions, 59 of them for theft.
Today the thieves all pleaded guilty to a single count of theft but Judge Deva Pillay adjourned sentencing and warned them: "All options are open. Inevitably there is going to be, I suspect, one of custody."
Maughan was remanded in custody while the teenagers, who were not forced to stand in the dock for the hearing, were released on bail until they are sentenced on a date yet to be set.
# Posted on March 4th 2011 by Free Reed
Re: News on the stolen Stradivarius Violin (Dec 2010 discussion)
"The court heard Dublin-born Maughan had more than 40 aliases"
...more than some of the people on the mustard board!!
Just hope they eventually get it back (or someone has had a very lucky purchase!)
# Posted on March 4th 2011 by Mark Harmer
Re: News on the stolen Stradivarius Violin (Dec 2010 discussion)
"The instrument is valued at......". Well, maybe.
The value of an instrument, IMNSHO, is what someone will pay for it at any moment.
As I sometimes complain, you do get people on ebay and elsewhere who won't list an instrument ( well, okay, that's my interest ) at less than the minimum they are prepared to sell it for, whereas if they put a much lower start price you might get a feeding frenzy of people suddenly getting all excited about it, aat which point you suddenly see the true worth of something ( or, arguably, maybe not ) , what somebody is prepared to pay for it.
None of this has anything to do with the true intrinsic worth of the instrument, the pleasure it gives in the playing and the hearing of it, which is an altogether different kettle of fish.
This violin, for instance, simply by virtue of its age and rarity, has a high value. But does anyone suggest that modern instrument makers cannot, with all the centuries of learning tat have gone on since, NOT make an instrument that will mature into as fine a one as this old master ? And are these valued at a million+ ?
# Posted on March 4th 2011 by Guernsey Pete
Re: News on the stolen Stradivarius Violin (Dec 2010 discussion)
I'm definitely rambling. Time for the midday calorie intake.
Or get out a bit.
# Posted on March 4th 2011 by Guernsey Pete
Re: News on the stolen Stradivarius Violin (Dec 2010 discussion)
But where is the fiddle ?
THAT is what we want to know.
# Posted on March 4th 2011 by Guernsey Pete
Re: News on the stolen Stradivarius Violin (Dec 2010 discussion)
They might have just dumped it somewhere knowing it was hot property. Creates an opportunity for a modern luthier to make a top quality replacement (for about 1/600th of the value)
# Posted on March 4th 2011 by RichardB
Re: News on the stolen Stradivarius Violin (Dec 2010 discussion)
Hmmm .. anyone out there using a Strad for trad?
# Posted on March 4th 2011 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: News on the stolen Stradivarius Violin (Dec 2010 discussion)
Maths wrong - I mean 1/60th. I read an article that said that a soloist should be able to get a violin made for something like £20,000 that would rival one by Amati, Stradivari or Guarneri.
# Posted on March 4th 2011 by RichardB
Re: News on the stolen Stradivarius Violin (Dec 2010 discussion)
I'll be in a garage up on ramps, cut in half, and the two halves will be welded onto bits of other instruments.
# Posted on March 4th 2011 by Mark Harmer
Re: News on the stolen Stradivarius Violin (Dec 2010 discussion)
<But where is the fiddle ?
THAT is what we want to know. >
Its ok , I have it ! ,, lol.
jim,,,
# Posted on March 4th 2011 by FIDDLE4
Re: News on the stolen Stradivarius Violin (Dec 2010 discussion)
Stradivari made about 1200 instruments in his very long life, the vast majority violins. Only about 600 still exist, and, with remarkably few exceptions, their current ownerships are well documented.
There are also a few hundred, perhaps a thousand or so other violins from Stradivari's era, by a variety of other makers which could, in sporting terms, also be considered premiership material. With such a small number it is not surprising that market economics prevail, but in the case of Stradivari and one or two others being pushed to the ridiculous levels of the high art world by the antics of collectors in auctions.
RichardB makes a very good point. A few years ago I had the opportunity to play for a few minutes a replica Stradivari cello owned by a freelance professional cellist in my area. The cellist paid £15,000 several years previously for it to be made by a specialist luthier in Italy. The appearance of that instrument hasn't been "antiqued", but the sound is as authentic as you can get.
In the USA there is a professional violin soloist who owns a Guarneri. He has had an exact replica made (wear marks, scratches, dings and all), to the extent that they cannot be distinguished visually or by sound, but a good player can tell by playing that one feels "newer" than the other. The cost of that replica was a tiny fraction of the value of the real Guarneri.
I think we can conclude that the authentic Stradivari/Guarneri sound will still be around in many years to come, even though the originals will have deteriorated (as they indeed must) until they can only live on in museum display cases.
# Posted on March 5th 2011 by Trevor Jennings
Re: News on the stolen Stradivarius Violin (Dec 2010 discussion)
"sell it for £100 to a man sitting next to them in an internet café,"
Now, if you were that man, would you stall the seller while you called the police, would you just stay out of the matter, or would you be tempted....?
# Posted on March 5th 2011 by oldstrings
Re: News on the stolen Stradivarius Violin (Dec 2010 discussion)
oldstrings - thanks for letting me know that you are dishonest. If ever you try to sell anything on here, I shall give it a miss.
# Posted on March 5th 2011 by gam
Re: News on the stolen Stradivarius Violin (Dec 2010 discussion)
gam, I hope that was just a joke; Oldstrings was asking a rhetorical question. Incidentally, "being tempted" isn't of itself being dishonest; it's the falling into the temptation that is.
# Posted on March 5th 2011 by Trevor Jennings
Re: News on the stolen Stradivarius Violin (Dec 2010 discussion)
It DID cross his mind, did it not?
It IS a question he threw out, possibly reflecting an ethical "gray area" in his mind, making the subject worthy of debate, is it not?
He DID choose to go there publicly, correct?
Well then, I, for one, am VERY VERY VERY suspicious.
Most disturbing, that question.
# Posted on March 7th 2011 by Piece
Re: News on the stolen Stradivarius Violin (Dec 2010 discussion)
Oh Gam and Piece...get a life. Are you telling me that in the bubble you live in you have never taken advantage of having a joke? Who are you to judge someone from what they say? If that is the case I can judge that you are both uptight and sadly lacking the prerequisite sense of humour necessary to play this music and put life into it. Wunch of Bankers...
# Posted on March 7th 2011 by Greenwiggle
Re: News on the stolen Stradivarius Violin (Dec 2010 discussion)
Ah for fecks sake Gam and Piece!
# Posted on March 7th 2011 by big_tab
Re: News on the stolen Stradivarius Violin (Dec 2010 discussion)
I'd have given him £100 for it. Took the day off work, played it for a day, then got in touch with the police and given it back. And probably got a reward.
# Posted on March 7th 2011 by ...
Re: News on the stolen Stradivarius Violin (Dec 2010 discussion)
"...........played it for a day, then got in touch with the police and given it back." Nice one, M!
Serious question: "What would you have played first on it?"
# Posted on March 7th 2011 by domhnall.