I did look in the archives but couldn't find anything relating to this.....please direct me if you know where I could find the answer....
What are folks opinions on buying an old, restored flute (that claims to be 440) versus a newly made one?
I saw lots of discussion on current makers and who is good but what about the flutes you can find on ebay that are 19th century restored ones? Are they crap to play or is it a crap-shoot?
The proof of the pudding is in the eating - you basically need to play it or have someone you trust play it before you part with your hard-earned dollars. There are some nice restored flutes about but they usually have nice prices too. Also some old restored flutes have issues that can make them difficult for for a beginner to play. You need to do your homework.
To answer the question: mostly crap, but occasionally a crap-shoot.
I've had two dozen old flutes - all but one under $500USD. All had some level of internal and/or external tuning issues. The one that was worth a lot was so delicate that I couldn't practice on it daily because cracks would open up. (It had fewer tuning issues, but it came from the 1820's, a time when tuning was thought of in a different way.) If I'd had the cash, I'd have gone right for an R&R - but that wasn't an option for me.
Many of the old flutes that you find on eBay are of German origin, in the Meyer style, either unmarked or Nach Meyers. If you're handy and like to tinker with things, by all means try one out - they don't cost much, usually need work, and generally don't play in tune.
Here's an interesting example of an unmarked flute with blocks, salt cup keys, and corked tenons that could potentially be worthwhile: http://cgi.ebay.com/Antique-19th-Century-Wooden-Flute-/160550061805?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item25618786ed#ht_500wt_1156
Ultimately, in order to have solid working flutes, I decided to find a sound that I liked and figure out who made those instruments. For me, they turned out to be Hammy Hamilton's flutes - a keyed and an unkeyed, and they're perfect for how I use them. Many players are in love with Patrick Olwell's flutes - and rightly so because they're top of the line - but I couldn't afford to wait for 6 years.
There are plenty of excellent makers out there, who will be able to talk to you about what you're looking for. I'd say, rather than guess about how an eBay flute might sound, look for players who have a sound you like and figure out what instrument they're playing. Also, check the Chiff & Fipple site for used instruments - there have been some beauties popping up lately.
Finding the right instrument is a process that takes a long time, a lot of testing, listening, playing. There's no shortcut.
my recommendation is that you should NOT buy an antique flute if you don't know what you're looking for. you will not find a deal on antique flute that plays well and can become your main instrument. great antique flutes that are loud, in tune, and have great tone go for fair market value.
if you are very knowledgeable, however, you can find a used flute that is in bad shape, and then get it fixed up. i have a flute from 1864 that was sold on ebay as "spare parts." my friend bought it and fixed it up, making it an unbelievable flute. those sorts of deals require expertise and extensive experience in restoration, and it is still very "out of tune" by modern standards.
if you want an antique, find someone who knows what it's worth and knows what they're talking about. many flute makers keep some antiques on hand to copy, and will be more than happy to sell them (but not at a discount). you can also ask around on the chiff and fipple flute forum, and there will probably be people there who might recommend you a flute.
Do you want something to play or something to collect? Substitute 'antique' with 'old', the word 'restored' with 'has been repaired' and discard all romantic notions. You might be lucky, and you might be ripped off.
Agree with daiv - if you don't know a great deal about what you are doing, avoid old flutes unless they are so cheap you can look on them as fun. I you pay very much (which you'd have to, for something good) you'll easily get your fingers burnt.
For flute expertise, search Chiff and Fipple at http://forums.chiffandfipple.com/
A 440 has only been standard since the 1940s. Pianos, at least, were meant to be tuned at A 435, and I carry a 435 fork for those older beasts. Instruments made in the 1800s had a wide variety of pitch standards, and you could get a flute meant for baroque pitch of A 415 or so.
It depends on who restored it. I have a lovely old flute that's been worked on by Pat Olwell and John Cornia. I got it for a lot less than a new keyed flute because it's got some cosmetic issues after 100 years of use.
You could call Pat or John and see if they're working on anything. They'll tell you whether the flute is a good player vs. a collectors instrument. I wouldn't buy a random antique flute on eBay unless you're willing to spend money having it restored and possibly a new headjoint built.
I asked a while ago what key/pitch was an old flute with a tuning slide meant to be in?
There was one link provided by one respondent, which went to a paper examining the intonations of old flutes set at different pitches/extensions of tuning slide. Interestingly, the best general intonation provided by most of this set of different old flutes WAS at about A440, although there were obviously discrepencies between these venerable instruments.
So;
if the instrument you choose IS potentially playable/restorable, then it may be worth it.
Caveat Emptor. Let the buyer beware.
Yet another flute question....
Yet another flute question....
I did look in the archives but couldn't find anything relating to this.....please direct me if you know where I could find the answer....
What are folks opinions on buying an old, restored flute (that claims to be 440) versus a newly made one?
I saw lots of discussion on current makers and who is good but what about the flutes you can find on ebay that are 19th century restored ones? Are they crap to play or is it a crap-shoot?
# Posted on February 27th 2011 by thejigisup
Re: Yet another flute question....
The proof of the pudding is in the eating - you basically need to play it or have someone you trust play it before you part with your hard-earned dollars. There are some nice restored flutes about but they usually have nice prices too. Also some old restored flutes have issues that can make them difficult for for a beginner to play. You need to do your homework.
# Posted on February 27th 2011 by kinga
Re: Yet another flute question....
To answer the question: mostly crap, but occasionally a crap-shoot.
I've had two dozen old flutes - all but one under $500USD. All had some level of internal and/or external tuning issues. The one that was worth a lot was so delicate that I couldn't practice on it daily because cracks would open up. (It had fewer tuning issues, but it came from the 1820's, a time when tuning was thought of in a different way.) If I'd had the cash, I'd have gone right for an R&R - but that wasn't an option for me.
Many of the old flutes that you find on eBay are of German origin, in the Meyer style, either unmarked or Nach Meyers. If you're handy and like to tinker with things, by all means try one out - they don't cost much, usually need work, and generally don't play in tune.
Here's an interesting example of an unmarked flute with blocks, salt cup keys, and corked tenons that could potentially be worthwhile:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Antique-19th-Century-Wooden-Flute-/160550061805?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item25618786ed#ht_500wt_1156
and here's one I wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Antique-19th-Century-Wooden-Flute-/160550061805?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item25618786ed#ht_500wt_1156
Ultimately, in order to have solid working flutes, I decided to find a sound that I liked and figure out who made those instruments. For me, they turned out to be Hammy Hamilton's flutes - a keyed and an unkeyed, and they're perfect for how I use them. Many players are in love with Patrick Olwell's flutes - and rightly so because they're top of the line - but I couldn't afford to wait for 6 years.
There are plenty of excellent makers out there, who will be able to talk to you about what you're looking for. I'd say, rather than guess about how an eBay flute might sound, look for players who have a sound you like and figure out what instrument they're playing. Also, check the Chiff & Fipple site for used instruments - there have been some beauties popping up lately.
Finding the right instrument is a process that takes a long time, a lot of testing, listening, playing. There's no shortcut.
# Posted on February 27th 2011 by Toppish
Re: Yet another flute question....
Excellent way of making your point, having both eBay links being the same.
# Posted on February 27th 2011 by kkrell
Re: Yet another flute question....
my recommendation is that you should NOT buy an antique flute if you don't know what you're looking for. you will not find a deal on antique flute that plays well and can become your main instrument. great antique flutes that are loud, in tune, and have great tone go for fair market value.
if you are very knowledgeable, however, you can find a used flute that is in bad shape, and then get it fixed up. i have a flute from 1864 that was sold on ebay as "spare parts." my friend bought it and fixed it up, making it an unbelievable flute. those sorts of deals require expertise and extensive experience in restoration, and it is still very "out of tune" by modern standards.
if you want an antique, find someone who knows what it's worth and knows what they're talking about. many flute makers keep some antiques on hand to copy, and will be more than happy to sell them (but not at a discount). you can also ask around on the chiff and fipple flute forum, and there will probably be people there who might recommend you a flute.
# Posted on February 27th 2011 by daiv
Re: Yet another flute question....
Do you want something to play or something to collect? Substitute 'antique' with 'old', the word 'restored' with 'has been repaired' and discard all romantic notions. You might be lucky, and you might be ripped off.
# Posted on February 27th 2011 by gam
Re: Yet another flute question....
Agree with daiv - if you don't know a great deal about what you are doing, avoid old flutes unless they are so cheap you can look on them as fun. I you pay very much (which you'd have to, for something good) you'll easily get your fingers burnt.
For flute expertise, search Chiff and Fipple at http://forums.chiffandfipple.com/
# Posted on February 27th 2011 by Alex Wilding
Re: Yet another flute question....
Sorry, it was late:
Here's the other link - the one I'd stay away from:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Very-old-flute-Barth-Courtsupplier-w-4-keys-6holes-/130490595213?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1e61d8778d#ht_1265wt_1141
# Posted on February 27th 2011 by Toppish
Re: Yet another flute question....
A 440 has only been standard since the 1940s. Pianos, at least, were meant to be tuned at A 435, and I carry a 435 fork for those older beasts. Instruments made in the 1800s had a wide variety of pitch standards, and you could get a flute meant for baroque pitch of A 415 or so.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A440_(pitch_standard)
# Posted on February 27th 2011 by Greg the Piano Tuner
Re: Yet another flute question....
It depends on who restored it. I have a lovely old flute that's been worked on by Pat Olwell and John Cornia. I got it for a lot less than a new keyed flute because it's got some cosmetic issues after 100 years of use.
You could call Pat or John and see if they're working on anything. They'll tell you whether the flute is a good player vs. a collectors instrument. I wouldn't buy a random antique flute on eBay unless you're willing to spend money having it restored and possibly a new headjoint built.
# Posted on February 27th 2011 by ElaineT
Re: Yet another flute question....
Thank you! Very helpful.....
I had a friend look at the ebay links and he had a laundry list of why they were horrible LOL
I will stick with either a new or used flute from a modern maker for now!
# Posted on February 27th 2011 by thejigisup
Re: Yet another flute question....
I asked a while ago what key/pitch was an old flute with a tuning slide meant to be in?
There was one link provided by one respondent, which went to a paper examining the intonations of old flutes set at different pitches/extensions of tuning slide. Interestingly, the best general intonation provided by most of this set of different old flutes WAS at about A440, although there were obviously discrepencies between these venerable instruments.
So;
if the instrument you choose IS potentially playable/restorable, then it may be worth it.
Caveat Emptor. Let the buyer beware.
# Posted on February 27th 2011 by Guernsey Pete