I'm interested in hearing people's thoughts about the place of the recorder in traditional music. What do you think the recorder brings to a session? Who have been the seminal recorder players in the traditional music of the past, who are the leading players today?
You could talk about how much you like or dislike this instrument, how tunes can be ornamented on this instrument, how the instrument goes together with other instruments, or you could share any anecdotes you might have about the recorder.
Are there any recordings of traditional Irish music (or Scottish, or Northumbrian) featuring the recorder that you would recommend for listening?
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
You have the one advantage in that the recorder, being a chromatic instrument, can play in any key.
However, ornementation is much more difficult than on a whistle, and notes above top "A" are quite difficult to obtain (especially at speed) on most recorders.
For these reasons, the whistle is usually the instrument of choice.
If you can already play a recorder, it's not too difficult to make the transition to a whistle, as the fingerering has some correlation.
A recorder might possibly be a suitable instrument for playing O'Carolan tunes, though.
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
No, my question was aimed at the OP (who seemed to me to be doing for the recorder what a recent newcomer was doing for the piano).
The nice thing about recorders is that the high notes are in tune when you do get them. A tune like "The Old Grey Cat" sounds much better on a cheap descant recorder than on most whistles. You have to pay about ten times as much for an in-tune high B on a whistle.
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
I have a recording somewhere of someone doing a brilliant job on some jigs, The Monaghan Jig being one of them. If someone can play the monaghan at all they must be a good player, so to hear it done well on the recorder was a challenge to my preconceptions.
That said, the few other times I have witnessed recorders at sessions they have been in the hands of relative beginners to trad music, and it doesn't seem to sit very well. But then I suppose it depends on the quality of the session. I don't get it why those people don't just spend a couple of quid on a Generation D tin whistle and learn the fingering. It's actually easier. If they like the wooden sound, they could fork out about £40-50 on a wooden whistle. Just my view, prejudices and all.
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
Susato whistles sound like Susato recorders and not like a lot else.
Reverse-conical-bore recorders sound like reverse-conical-bore whistles. There is some difference in timbre for crossfingered or half-holed notes, but most notes will sound the same when played on two tubes of the same shape and the same material with the same fipple and windway design.
I take it ormepipes doesn't actually play the recorder, so doesn't have first-hand knowledge of what you can do with it. Most reasonably good recorder players also play the whistle and aren't prone to the same sort of preconceptions.
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
Prof - a lot of people wouldn't be able to attempt the monaghan, on whatever instrument. Yet they still come out to sessions and wade in on the kesh and so on. No prob with that, but there are a few bits of tricky phrasing on the monaghan that not all sessioneers could do. Explain why that is nonsensical.
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
The Monaghan Jig never struck me as a particularly difficult tune, well within the requirements of any whistle player who is reasonably capable.
To me 'a good player' is someone who has gone beyond the basics of learning an instrument and being able to draw a tune out of it. So having a stab at this or any other tune doesn't earn you the badge, in my eyes at least.
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
Prof,
I agree, The likes of Rosemary Lane are much trickier, with all that jumping about between octaves. Trixie even when played slowly - to me at any rate.
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
Perhaps the questions we should be asking are why did the recorder die out, and the whistle and flute survive? And why do current musicians play whistle and flute in preference to the recorder?
My gut feeling is that if the recorder was suitable, we'd see it being used in preference to the whistle, given its superior chromatic ability.
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
It just don't sound quite right. It doesn't tootle like a whistle or burble like a flute. A recorder just kinda prances around. I've heard decent recorder players make it burble and tootle, but it seems to me that it'd be easier to do so with an instrument that does it naturally.
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
Hmm. Yes, I've just messed around with both of them, and neither are that impossibly difficult. I stand corrected. Interesting set played together, The Monaghan, then the Mooncoin.
As I recall the recorder player still did a good job, though
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
I have yet to hear a recorder, no matter how well played, that has the right timbre for this music. To my ear, a recorder sounds too clean--doesn't have the chiff of a good whistle, or the reediness of a wooden flute.
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
I suppose recorders were discarded as Classical instruments in favour of other, maybe newer kinds - I don't know when, and I don't know why - and that the supply of new ones discontinued.
A family called Dolmetsch pioneered their revival in England in the 1930s.
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
>To my ear, a recorder sounds too clean
I agree, and that's what I meant when I initially said it doesn't seem to sit very well [in trad music sessions]. The track I referred to was of a solo recorder and sounded quite impressive.
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
In fact a recorder sounds LESS clean than a whistle - when doing crossfingered notes, more of the energy goes into higher partials.
The notes where this makes a difference are the mid-range D and C sharp, and the F sharps - other notes common to recorder and whistle are fingered the same and have exactly the same timbre. And a recorder can play in a wider range of keys than a whistle, using crossfingerings, and for those extra crossfingered notes the timbre will also be different - sounds a bit "muted". For common keys, that means that harmonically more remote notes from the tonic are de-emphasized a bit - the scale is less uniform than a whistle. (Professional-grade handmade recorders are often made to heighten this unevenness of tone colour). So if you play a tune on a recorder that cadences on a rising semitone, you often get a brightening of the timbre on the final note. Which is a neat effect a whistle won't give you.
But the physical differences between the two are all at that level of subtlety. The sort of boneheads who trot out cliches about Greensleeves certainly aren't hearing anything like that. They aren't hearing anything much at all through the noise their cultural stereotypes are making in their heads.
In Hungarian there is only one word for both "recorder" and "whistle" - "furulya" does for both. Makes sense to me.
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
To me the point is not so much what you CAN play but what it sounds like. I know a brilliant recorder player who does a nice job of Tam Linn or The Mason's Apron at full speed and with some ornamentation. She's got beautiful, high quality instruments which are in tune. (Being in tune is not the same as 'too clean').
Still - the recorder lacks a certain 'wildness'. To put it differently: it does not give me the urge to play along with on my fiddle like a well played flute or whistle does.
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
Hi Jack, you said:
"But the physical differences between [the whistle and the recorder] are all at that level of subtlety. The sort of boneheads who trot out cliches about Greensleeves certainly aren't hearing anything like that. They aren't hearing anything much at all through the noise their cultural stereotypes are making in their heads.
In Hungarian there is only one word for both "recorder" and "whistle" - "furulya" does for both. Makes sense to me."
It doesn't to me.
We're interested in the place of the recorder in the music, and so we're primarily interested in the sound. The physical differences between the whistle and the recorder may be small, but the effect is audible, and that is what the people referring to Greensleeves (and Telemann) are hearing.
And "the noise of cultural stereotypes" could almost be seen as a definition of traditional music.
Do you have a view about how the recorder fits into our kind of music? Your idea that we only need one word for recorders and whistles implies that they are not distinct; and yet you've explained how they are distinct.
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
I don't believe the denigration of the recorder you get from the less informed sessiongoers has anything at all to do with what they're hearing. It's to do with the smugness of an in-group that needs somebody to despise so they can feel good about themselves.
There are a lot more crap whistle players than crap recorder players in Irish sessions. In fact, the great majority of whistle players are crap. Do these folks conclude the whistle is crap? No. Nor should they. Draw the obvious parallel.
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
I've never been convinced by the recorder, it never sounds quite right to me, but I wouldn't stop someone from playing one in a session if they were making the effort to fit in. Your opinions may vary and be equally valid
I think moany people have their doubts when they see a recorder because 95% or more of the time the player will be a generic folky with eclectic tastes in music from around the world. Nothing wrong with that if that's your bag, but more often than not such a muscian sounds like a dabbler in many traditions rather than someone immersed in one particular style. The nuances of eacvh tradition are glossed over.
That isn't to say that someone primarily interested in Irish (or scottish etc) music might not be a recorder player. But the vast majority of players serious (which doesn't = poe-faced) about irish music will play whistle.
Jack, to my mind there is an obvious conclusion to be drawn from the fact that there are no (statistically all but no anyway) irish traditional musicians* playing recorder rather than whistle. It is alos perhaps worthwhile noting that a fair few realively johnny-come-lately instruments have become adopted by irish traditional musicians over the years: various accordeons, concertina, tenor banjo, madno-thingies. And yet the recorder which has been about for much longer than any of these and which is considerably cheaper has never made any similar inroads.
Of course you can play irish tunes on a recorder, you can play irish tunes on anything, but if you really want to play trad irish _music_ as your main interest you'd be much bettre playing a whistle. If your intersts are spread wider (thinner?) then perhaps a recorder might be of more use to you. A recorder is after all more versatile than a whistle, particularly if you don't carry a stack of differently keyed whistles about with you.
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
Does smugness really have anything to do with it? Denigration comes from jangled nerves as much as anything. Maybe thresholds of patience were reached. Rejection of the recorder has to do with a larger group's assesment that the instrument doesn't fit the music. There's no academy out there, smug or otherwise.
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...And yes a brilliant recorder player has a better chance to win converts. I'm still not sold on the piano myself; but I'm in a tiny minority there...
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
As has been pointed out, recorders and good recorder players have been around a long time. Recorders ought to have won their case for broader and lasting inclusion into the music by now.
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
If, as Mr. Campin says, you can't hear the timbre difference between a recorder and a penny whistle, then, sure, you'll accept the sound of a recorder in this music.
I can hear the difference and recorder doesn't sound right. Which is at least one reason why there aren't legions of recorder players at sessions. Nothing at all to do with smugness, despising, or an "in-group."
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
"There are a lot more crap whistle players than crap recorder players in Irish sessions"
Well, that's true enough. There's also not a lot of bassoon players, Hammond organ players are thin on the ground, and I've noted a scarce of jew's harps.
The fact that they don't turn up at sessions much hardly counts as an argument for their place in the music, though.
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
I didn't say a "penny" whistle. I meant a whistle made with comparable technology - same material, same bore profile. Upmarket whistles are often designed to be identical to recorders in every detail but the hole placement. (Conversely, the Hopf Silberton is an upmarket metal whistle with holes placed to make it play like a recorder).
I didn't notice anybody in this thread taking up my specific technical points. Is there anything in Irish music that requires an F sharp to have identical timbre to the G above it? If so, you have an argument for the whistle having a fundamental advantage over the recorder. I don't believe there is even one tune like that, let alone a whole corpus of them.
There are legions of whistle players in sessions who don't sound right and never will sound right because they're duff players who can't hear how bad they are and will never learn. They don't get the opprobrium that a very much better recorder player gets. "Not sounding right" is irrelevant, this is irrational taboo we're dealing with. (I think I know what the historical reasons for it are, and they should have died a death by now).
We can count ourselves lucky that the fiddle, flute and melodeon sneaked in before there were people like that around to say they'd never sound right.
I mainly play Scottish music (on several different instruments, including both recorders and whistles) because in that genre I don't have to deal with crap like this. I no longer have any interest in trying to prove anything to people with attitudes like Will's. I can (and do) still play Irish tunes in Scottish sessions if I want.
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
Jack, you can imagine that you know what my attitudes are, and you can even misrepresent them. It won't win you any converts, and it won't change the fact that recorders do sound different than penny whistles (the instruments that actually *are* used to play this music, regardless of how much or little they cost).
I've never seen a whistle designed and built like a recorder, and that includes some very high end whistles (O'Riordans, Abells, Sindts, Burkes, and Milligans) as well as the usual Clarkes, Generations, and Feadogs.
Which is why whistles for this music sound so different from recorders, and why the former is preferred for this music.
I recently test drove a pricey "violin" that had big, bright, brassy tone. Beautifully focused, bell-like on the high end, smooth and glossy tone on all strings. Sounded totally out of place playing Irish tunes in a session.
"Not sounding right" is precisely why recorders and concert-hall violins aren't played much at all in Irish sessions.
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
Yes, there are abysmally bad whistle players in sessions. Would that that were otherwise! [Jumps up and down in excited agreement] Would they play any better if they were issued with recorders? (I sort of thought you play Scottish music, btw.)
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I'm intrigued with the notion that recorders are accepted into Scottish music because Scottish music might be more adventurous, more inclusive, more broad minded, or something.
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
I have an assortment. Probably my fave is a 25-year-old Camac (Generation type) in A, but it's too quiet for anything but a microphone. I haven't used my Susatos in a while - they're in reserve for times when, as somebody here put it, I need to direct traffic in fog.
The ones I'm using most are Hungarian wooden ones: a conical-bore in A by Andras Hodorog (sounds sweet at the extreme high end), and parallel-bore ones in D and A with built-in drones by Gyorgy Ban which do in plumwood what Cathal McConnell does with two Generations and sellotape (the A makes it the world's most compact bagpipe).
The nearest thing I have to a decent normal D whistle is an old Chinese bamboo one (like a Susato with table manners), but I can do pretty much anything it's capable of using a Renaissance-type descant recorder.
I have at least five times that many, all of which I had some specific musical use for at some time and whose hour might yet come again. You probably know how it is.
The one I really, really don't miss is the Overton low G that I swapped for something useful. I truly loathe Overtons.
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
Popcorn aside, I would love a response about Jack's whistles. There are many whistles which I have not played & wouldn't mind reading what anyone has to say about their choice of whistle. Whether I agree with their opinion(s) or not isn't my main concern.
One whistle which I would very much like to play is the MK. I don't think he makes a high whistle. Not that if know of.
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...The implication being: that Irish music must be the opposite, if it rejects recorders. Yes, that must be the only explanation. Has to be. Hasn't it?
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
You know this expression" cultural stereotypes" thats being thrown around here. Does it make me a bad guy if I think the recorder is a really crappy sounding English instrument. The crappiest sounding instrument known to man.? It cant make me sound too bad as people are saying way worse things every day here about the glorious sounding instrument known as The Bodhran.
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
Hmmm, except for the Susatos, I've never run across any whistles of those makes (Camac, Hodorog, Ban, China) in Irish sessions. Could be they sound a lot like recorders.
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
For what it's worth, I don't think the recorder is a crappy sounding instrument. It dosen't work for me when it's played in a session. Also, for what it's worth, I'm fond of the bodhran too. The piano in Irish music really sets me off, though.
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
AQ, yes, recorders can be fine instruments--good ones well played sound lovely. I don't think anyone here has suggested otherwise.
But I (and apparently a lot of others) don't care for that "lovely" sound in this music.
I can see why that might annoy a recorder player. Come to think of it, I'm really p*ssed that my local symphony won't let me sit in with my 5 string banjo....
And if someone "played" a washboard at our local Irish session, it would last one tune. Same as the guy who banged two river rocks together claiming he was a percussionist.....
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
LOL, big_tab, you've made me think twice. It's been a long time since I heard a truly well-made and well-played recorder, so I went surfing and found this:
Where'd that come from, Ben? ... I really don't know ;)
More & more I'm considering music is personal. But I'll share anyway. Playing flute is probably as close as I've come to expressing my voice. I would never sing a lead vocal. With flute, however, it's as close as I'll come to real singing. So, for me, playing music is better, more fun, & wonderful, each day.
...
Sorry for the veering away from fipple music.
Carry on!
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
Will - I never did understand why recorder players wiggle so much. It makes me think they want all the rats in the town to start following them down the street or something.
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
Well, let's see if another recorder/whistle player can mediate the acrimonious exchange between Jack and Will. Or, perhaps I can get them both to shoot at me :(
First do they sound different? Yes if you compare the cylindrical bore whistle (most common) with the reverse conical bore recorder (most common). The bore types accentuate different harmonics and have other acoustical qualities. That is an apples to oranges comparison. Not so much difference though if you compare instruments with the same kind of bore (say a Copeland soprano D whistle and a good soprano recorder or a good renaissance recorder with a good cylindrical bore whistle in the same range). But, they still can sound a bit different. This is partially because the fipple area is adjusted differently on the two instruments and partially because the players are trained differently in playing the instrument. But the instruments can sound quite alike in the hands of the right player. After all who here can make a Generation whistle sound quite like Mary Bergin can? So, there is room for both points of view and it is quite easy for folks to talk past each other by ignoring some of the issues.
Second that youtube video: Now really Will, that is totally unfair. You've picked a Tenor recorder example (or at least a recorder lower than an alto). That is a cumbersome instrument and is generally accepted as the most awkward of the entire recorder family. Anyone with one of those at a session ought to be "helped" to go away. Then you've chosen an example of French Baroque music. In general that is pretty awful stuff. Hotteterre is arguably the most boring of the lot. It is sort of the equivalent of asking someone who's never heard pipes before to understand and enjoy pibroch. Unless you've been immersed in Baroque music or recorder music you probably aren't going to enjoy this at all. I've spent quite a bit of time with Baroque music. In general I hate that stuff. So, it is hardly a fair tune to pick to pick out a recorder player.
This is a fairer example despite the ring in the room.
Now to the basic issue can the recorder fit in ITM: Yes it can fit, but the player needs to understand the tradition and adapt to it just as a classical violinist needs to change to fit. There is a local guy, Dick Hensold (who is also a fine Northumbrian pipes player), who plays recorder all the time professionally with very good Irish groups and other trad groups. You'd welcome him in a session. I tried to find a youtube example but there are none. I would never try playing a recorder at a session, though I have used one for contradances (usually on English tunes from Playford). I'm a good baroque recorder player and played professionally on that instrument for a bit. But I can't make the instrument do what I want for ITM. So I don't try. I'll play and Irish tune from time to time, but wouldn't inflict it on ITM players. Unfortunately there are many recorder players who, like many whistle players and many bodhran players, and many guitar players, are clueless. Come to think of it I suspect the same can be said of box players and fiddle players and flute players too! I suspect though that most ITM players are willing to at least try to help clueless folks playing traditionally acceptable instruments; so long as the clueless one is trying to learn to fit in. I suspect they are much less willing to do help out with an instrument which is traditionally less acceptable and about which they may have less understanding.
So, why did the recorder die out? It was never a cheap instrument to make. The whistle was. And, as concert halls grew and better flutes were developed the limitations of the recorder became unacceptable to listeners. It did NOT die out because it was a "bad" instrument.
In sum, most recorder players should probably shift to whistle to play ITM (for a variety of reasons mostly already expressed), but a fine one who has absorbed the tradition can fit right in. That said I don't know any recorder players who are national or international stars in the ITM world.
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
Different strokes for different folks Will. Fair play, but it is just a different world. Did you notice the ornaments in the first section? All improvised, though I doubt spontaneous....
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
Yeah, the ornaments sounded like ornaments, not articulations of timing.
We have a recorder player at our local session. She's very good. And she quit bringing her recorder many years ago, switching to whistle instead. Because her ears told her that recorder didn't fit the music. So now she's a very good whistle player (on a Burke narrow bore D).
I've listened to a lot of baroque music, a lot of clavichord music from that period. Bringing a recorder to an Irish session would be like bringing a clavichord to a blues session.
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
I wish I even liked the recorder in Baroque music.. Sometimes it can be difficult to watch a Piano Accordeon or a Silver Flute in a session even though some great musicians play them. They dont seem to look right for this music.If I close my eyes and listen to Joanie Madden or Alan Kelly I am in a good place but as soon as I open them something negative happens. I should never have looked at that eejit James Galway playing with Matt Molloy! The recorder brings those feelings to a whole new place...A sh*te instrument.
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
"Hmmm, except for the Susatos, I've never run across any whistles of those makes (Camac, Hodorog, Ban, China) in Irish sessions."
You can't have played much in Europe if you've never run into a Camac. They're like a Generation with quality control, and used to be pretty common. Camac was the largest maker of folk instruments in France. They only made whistles for a few years, but made a LOT of them in that time. They now specialize in harps. I have an A and an E flat Camac whistle. (I also have a rather peculiar Praetorius-copy Renaissance recorder they made in ebony; it has the advantage that I can bash on with it for hours without it stuffing up as most wooden recorders/whistles do after that time, but its intonation is a bit iffy).
Yes, you can make a recorder sound like that if you try. You can also make that whistle sound like any other conical-bore A whistle if you desist from the buzzing effect Hodorog is using.
Cathal McConnell plays a Chinese bamboo whistle like mine sometimes, and I'm pretty sure I've seen him with a Camac. You've probably never heard of him. Somebody else you'd tell to p*ss off and not come near your session before hearing them, no doubt.
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"And if someone "played" a washboard at our local Irish session, it would last one tune."
I agree, and I wouldn't use it on Irish music, except perhaps for some polkas played in the Scottish style. I play it like a danceband snare/cymbal kit, which is a sound that is appropriate for Scottish ceilidh band music.
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Camacs were never very common among player. They were out in the shops by the late seventies. I still have a Bflat which doesn't get marks for subtlety and refinement.
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
You should get up to date and buy a washing machine with built-in dryer instead of a washboard. They keep a good beat on the spin cycle, but maybe they are slightly heavier than a washboard, but you can get a bargain at Curries for under £300. And you will need a water supply and outlet, not common in session pubs, but speak to your landlord you never know. Tell him you have the ear of influential politicians.
Also maybe chopsticks will replace spoons some day.
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
...and a clothes dryer with boots tumbling in it, to synthesize that wonderfull free-association style of bodhran playing everybody loves. Can't have too much of that.
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
A couple of points: I have a good friend who plays ITM on recorder. Sounds quite good, but lacks an Irish sound. I have a Ralph Sweet recorder made of wood that is designed like a recorder and is also voiced like one. However, I am not happy with the overall quality (it was a gift), and so I don't play it.
I think that recorder died out because of the popularty of the flute for classical music and the whistle for folk because you don't have to deal with a thumb hole to get the second octave, which is a real pain.
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
Well Will, I said I wouldn't bring a recorder to a session because I couldn't get it to do what I want; which is to say it wouldn't play the music the way I wanted it. So, I suspect, we are not very far apart on that.
Yeah the ornaments sound like ornaments because that is what they are. Sure different from ITM style!
I'm sorry you don't like recorders in baroque music. I do think that recorder is an acquired taste, and like olives some folks just don't acquire it. Loved the clavichord comparison though! I had this wonderful image of BB King and a clavichord player....
big_tab you'll have to wind up someone else.
Allin, you're wrong about why the recorder died out. It died out because musical tastes changed drastically at the end of the baroque. Essentially the trend was toward more "emotion" (some would say romanticism) in music and the thing was to get as close to the voice as possible. The flute was decreed as the closest to the human voice. Whatever the recorder is or isn't it definitely is not a "romantic" instrument. So, it went away. It is useful to note that at that period most wind players played oboe, flute, and recorder (and often violin too) so they just shifted to the instrument that was in fashion. So they didn't mind the changes. Bach uses recorders to imply the "old" style of music in several of his cantatas.
Looks like my efforts at mediating went for naught. Ah well...it was worth a try... Got to listen to Jack's example...
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
In re Jack's example of "recorder." It might be best to think of all these intruments as end blown fipple flutes and forget about the whistle/recorder thing. The instrument being played may be called a recorder, but the fingering was very much like playing a D whistle in the key of G. There was no fingering pattern related to baroque recorder as far as I could tell.
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
I've been following this thread with interest. I'd regard myself as a competent recorder player and an aspiring fiddle player - haven't dared to dust off my recorder at an Irish session yet and after posting on this thread recently, probably never will!
The same goes for the recorder as any other instrument. If you are bad, you are bad! Compotent players would have no problems with jumping the octave, for instance, which seems to be cited to be a major negative point! If they are a beginner, then they will have to get to grips with whichever instrument they have picked, same goes for anything. Unfortunately the recorder still hasnt' shed its image as a beginners' instrument, which students murder and then choose to move on from! As anything else, it is hard to play well. Most people don't take the trouble. There is some pretty far out modern recorder music out there if anyone is interested in seeing the instrument's technical capabilites in the right hands.
The tone and timbre obviously depends on what recorder you buy. You can spends thousands if you want, depending on the effect you want, and type of playing you want to do. So you could pick something similar to the whistle sound, if desired. And you can get recorders in any key, not just C and F. So there is just as much flexibility here as with whistles. There are plenty of rubbish recorders out there, with players who can't hear it. And, in baroque amateur circles, plenty of terrible players with very pricey instruments.. So no different to any other tradition.
Volume is possibly one other reason why recorders didn't stay popular. Just think of the Brandenburg concerto with the trumpet, violin and recorder - poor thing doesn't stand a chance. That is one major disadvantage - trying to increase the volume usually results in the tone and intonation cracking.
Style is perhaps one problem that good players will have if they come to ITM from classical/baroque. They'll be accustomed to ornamentation but of a very different type. I myself am not too fixated to style as some folk on this board seem to be. I just like to play good tunes and it doesn't bother me if it doesn't fit a fixed tradition. Just depends who you play with and if they object, I suppose! This hasn't been a problem in Scottish sessions - perhaps they were atypically open minded and I didn't realise my good fortune?
BTW does anyone know why the recorder is cited as an English instrument? I have been wondering. In a previous thread about the recorder, this was also mentioned.
I personally think there is room for the recorder here! Some variety is a good thing, although I can appreciate that purists might want to keep things pure in their eyes!
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
charl_berry how might you characterize the distinction between ornamentation, & say articulation, in different styles, or genres, of playing? I use ornamentation in a wholly different way from how I articulate Irish tunes. Also, what does the phrase a "fixed tradition" mean, or imply?
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
Ben:
By 'fixed tradition', I mean ITM or whatever. I had thought when starting to learn Scottish fiddle that it was a living tradition ie open to developing, doing things a new way, pushing the boundaries, using non-traditional instruments. This has been my experience by playing and going to gigs in Scotland, but does this then count as traditional music, folk, or what (I don't want to start that thread again!).
But my impressions from following this list from time to time is that ITM particuarly (if this is an ITM list and therefore representative - I have no knowledge of Irish music) is quite conservative and 'pure' ie no pianos, guitars, recorders etc. There seems to be a 'fixed' idea on this list or dominant members within it about what is tradtionally acceptable and what is not.
I don't have a problem with this, coming from a classical background, where most of your time is spent learning a particular style or technique (although there are trends - modern recorder players would not follow the techniques advocated by the Dolmetsch revivalists in the 20th c, for example, since research would suggest that a more 'authentic' approach has been found. How do you ever know when you have got back to the root of what is traditional or authentic??!).
I must admit that I am not sure what you mean when you say 'articulation'. I;'d understand it on a wind instrument to mean slurring, tonguing etc and get the impression that this is a stylistic device on the whistle ie sluring all the time or not or something inbetween? I am a novice on this one so would welcome your thoughts!
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
Charlotte, I am not your best source for describing the difference between ornamentation & articulation. I'm trying to recall who might be. Fintan Vallely, perhaps in his book ~ Timber Irish Flute Tutor. Short of that I'll make the attempt.
You'll often hear, & read, references to *ornamentation* in Irish music. The term is used, & though it is easy to assume ornamentation in Irish music is the same, or similar, to the ornamentation of Baroque music. It is not.
Articulation, as I understand it, is rarely if ever additional notes (pitches) within the melody used to embellish the tune. They may look like notes when played; though they aren't, or rarely are, discernible pitches. Instead they provide phrasing, emphasis, rhythmic interpretation.
....
Sorry, Charlotte.
There is something to articulation. It is important in playing Irish dance tunes. I'm simply too much of an edjit to even begin to provide you with an adequate description of articulation.
Before I mislead you further, this is something I want to point out. I'm just not willing, at present, to explain it in detail when someone, with more experience, will most likely do a much better job than myself.
I throw myself on the mercy of those better articulators.
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
There's a bit of recorder playing on "Penguin Eggs", the classic 80s album of the singer Nic Jones. It's backing one or more songs, not playing dance tunes, but it's there all the same.
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
Re: Cathal McConnell.
Funny, I first met him in 1977, in Boston. Then again every few years up until the Boys' last visit to Montana, hmmm, about 15 years ago maybe. I've had tunes with him and enjoyed his songs and stories in small house sessions many times.
So Mr. Campin, before you assume that you know anything about me and in the same breath accuse me of excluding people I know nothing about, take a long look in the mirror.
Besides, what I said was if someone (not you in particular) played a washboard at our local session, it would last one tune. I'd then ask them, nicely, to stop. You may think that the washboard is a musical instrument. Other people, including myself, disagree. Given that it's my local session, I'd have the last word on this, with full support of my session mates.
Jack, perhaps you feel a touch "set upon" and defensive here because you've specialized in instruments and noisemakers outside the typical quiver of those used to play this music. The remedy for that, instead of denigrating the people who do play this music, might be to learn to play a more suitable and accepted instrument. Or is that championing the obvious?
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
LOL, here's a lovely clip of a "jam" playing Planxty Irwin complete with a recorder AND a washboard. You have to turn your volume up pretty high to hear the rat-a-tat-tat of the flippin' washboard.
Thank my lucky stars that NO session I've ever played in has sounded this bad.
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
LOL: "Here's Hodorog playing one of his own whistles."
But who can tell what it sounds like? Sorry, but the bloke beating the crap out of the double-course armadillo apparently thinks "subtle" and "nuance" are brands of French cigarettes.
What little I could hear of the Hodorog whistle? I hope they cost less than a Walton's or Clarke.....
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
I'm happy to say I didn't notice the washboard. But how could you tell it was Planxty Irwin given the intonation?
I am reminded of a comment of a fine recorder playing friend of mine when I asked how he could stand dealing with the local recorder society, "There's little call for professional recorder players, but a great call for music therapy." I do wish they wouldn't post the therapy sessions on youtube though. It is one thing to get together and enjoy making music at whatever level. It is quite another to make those attempts public if they are at that level.
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
@Charlotte I think the reason some folks think the recorder is an English instrument is because of the impact of the Dolmetsch revival of the instrument there.
It won't be the last bit of wrong information we'll foist on you!
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
Intonation? Which one? (Which would be explained by the presence of two recorders....)
Looks to me like the man sitting to the right of the recorder woman is playing a whistle. And she switches to a bigger bazooka recorder for the second tune.
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
What do you mean which one? There wasn't any! I must admit to not looking very long, though I did last up to the instrument change you mention. Tenor recorder again I think. A truly awful instrument in most cases. I really hated trying to play it when it was "my turn." in recorder ensembles. Still like recorders, but Heaven protect me from jams like that video.....
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
Charlotte here is a bit more on articulation from a past discussion;
" ... certain articulations are "traditional" and others are not--it's all about rhythm and timing. A trill fills space, but not in a particularly rhythmic way. It's more like fillagree added to embelish a note, not the rhythm.
... Irish trad musicians favor articulations that enhance pulse and create a sense of rhythmic lift (and also suspense or surprise). The articulations are peculiar to each instrument, and they've developed to suit the music (so that an Irish roll, for example, is different than a classical mordant)."
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
A tenor recorder works fine for slower music - tends to be quieter than a low whistle and is always quieter than a transverse flute, but that doesn't always matter. The Aulos plastic one is a good deal - it's balanced towards the low register, like most flutes used for Irish music. Easy to come by on EBay. The Yamaha plays quicker and easier at the top end, with better intonation, but has a less interesting tone.
I have good wooden ones that have the responsiveness to play pretty much anything, but in that pitch and price range a low whistle is better value for money if you don't need the chromatic potential of a recorder (and have the hand size to work it - a tenor recorder has better ergonomics).
I know somebody who gums the tin whistle the same way that guy does with his tenor recorder. There's no need for it on any instrument - I'd be worried about knocking my teeth out. Doing It Right here (not one of her better performances, but the only video I could find of her on the tenor):
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
Re: articulation
"Traditional Irish diddley music has evolved within the limitations of the instruments it's played on and will continue to do so. But it has also evolved to exploit what the instruments are capable of. And part of that evolving was/is the invention of cuts, rolls, taps, crans etc."
... #comment366665 ... llig
... "But yes, a lot of Irish music's articulation is about how to put rhythm into a continuos tone. Both by Interrupting the continuous tone with very very precisely placed blips and squeaks and by letting the tone flow uninterrupted to accentuate where you do interrupt it."
May 2nd 2008 by llig leahcim http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/17606/comments#comment366705
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
I've got a tenor in D (aka voiceflute) - probably from just-pre-Third-Reich Germany. (It's one of the instruments Hindemith's "Ploener Musiktag" trio was written for).
It's useful for two things: playing in extreme sharp keys, and playing in ordinary keys with flat-key fingering. The latter is nice for some Carolan tunes normally played in G - doing them effectively in F means you get a softer and more subtle timbre due to the extra crossfingerings.
But it's not much use for playing normal session tunes in D when you want lift and energy. The fingering pattern is just too alien when you're effectively in C, and the sound of 7 fingers down is too muted.
The recorder and recorder players in our music.
The recorder and recorder players in our music.
I'm interested in hearing people's thoughts about the place of the recorder in traditional music. What do you think the recorder brings to a session? Who have been the seminal recorder players in the traditional music of the past, who are the leading players today?
You could talk about how much you like or dislike this instrument, how tunes can be ornamented on this instrument, how the instrument goes together with other instruments, or you could share any anecdotes you might have about the recorder.
Are there any recordings of traditional Irish music (or Scottish, or Northumbrian) featuring the recorder that you would recommend for listening?
# Posted on February 19th 2011 by Bernie 29
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
You have the one advantage in that the recorder, being a chromatic instrument, can play in any key.
However, ornementation is much more difficult than on a whistle, and notes above top "A" are quite difficult to obtain (especially at speed) on most recorders.
For these reasons, the whistle is usually the instrument of choice.
If you can already play a recorder, it's not too difficult to make the transition to a whistle, as the fingerering has some correlation.
A recorder might possibly be a suitable instrument for playing O'Carolan tunes, though.
# Posted on February 19th 2011 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
Can you actually play it?
Not much point in making suggestions if you can't.
# Posted on February 19th 2011 by Jack Campin
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
If you mean me, yes (as well as whistles and other instruments!)
# Posted on February 19th 2011 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
Just say no. Use it for Handel, Telemann and 'Greensleeves'
# Posted on February 19th 2011 by Hup
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
No, my question was aimed at the OP (who seemed to me to be doing for the recorder what a recent newcomer was doing for the piano).
The nice thing about recorders is that the high notes are in tune when you do get them. A tune like "The Old Grey Cat" sounds much better on a cheap descant recorder than on most whistles. You have to pay about ten times as much for an in-tune high B on a whistle.
# Posted on February 19th 2011 by Jack Campin
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
Fair enough Jack - it would seem that I misunderstood your comment!
But I'll take issue with you regarding that top "B"
The third bar from the end of "The Old Grey Cat" includes an octave leap from low "B" to high "B".
Piece of cake on a whistle - but a pig on a recorder.
BTW - I've just checked the high "B" of my whistle using an electronic tuner, and it turned out to be accurate!
# Posted on February 19th 2011 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
I have a recording somewhere of someone doing a brilliant job on some jigs, The Monaghan Jig being one of them. If someone can play the monaghan at all they must be a good player, so to hear it done well on the recorder was a challenge to my preconceptions.
That said, the few other times I have witnessed recorders at sessions they have been in the hands of relative beginners to trad music, and it doesn't seem to sit very well. But then I suppose it depends on the quality of the session. I don't get it why those people don't just spend a couple of quid on a Generation D tin whistle and learn the fingering. It's actually easier. If they like the wooden sound, they could fork out about £40-50 on a wooden whistle. Just my view, prejudices and all.
# Posted on February 19th 2011 by Rudall the time
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
'If someone can play the monaghan at all they must be a good player'
That's a bit of a nonsensical statement isn't it?
# Posted on February 19th 2011 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
'If someone can play the monaghan at all they must be a good player'
Thanks gents, looks like I'll be learning that one next then - looking at the dots, it seems farly straightforward for whistle.
Chuck the recorder away, or play early English music instead. If you want to sound like a recorder, buy a Susato !
If you do settle for early English music mind, you'll have to be content with those awful tunes !!
# Posted on February 19th 2011 by ormepipes
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
Yikes.. Bodhrans and guitars get hammered and here is a reasonable, polite discussion about the recorder. Bollix.
# Posted on February 19th 2011 by big_tab
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
Susato whistles sound like Susato recorders and not like a lot else.
Reverse-conical-bore recorders sound like reverse-conical-bore whistles. There is some difference in timbre for crossfingered or half-holed notes, but most notes will sound the same when played on two tubes of the same shape and the same material with the same fipple and windway design.
I take it ormepipes doesn't actually play the recorder, so doesn't have first-hand knowledge of what you can do with it. Most reasonably good recorder players also play the whistle and aren't prone to the same sort of preconceptions.
# Posted on February 19th 2011 by Jack Campin
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
Don't buy a Susato! They should be confined to directing traffic at busy intersections in smog.
The following is a link that gives a list of people who play recorder in or around the folk world:
eurl=www.folktrax-archive.org%252Fmenus%252Fsearch_page.htm#1146
# Posted on February 19th 2011 by nicholas
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
http://folktrax-archive.org/menus/search_page.htm?cx=partner-pub-6440555437635241%3Ape6ib1-uhkh&cof=FORID%3A10&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=recorder&sa=Search&siteurl=www.folktrax-archive.org%252Fmenus%252Fsearch_page.htm#1146
....THAT's more like it!
# Posted on February 19th 2011 by nicholas
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
Prof - a lot of people wouldn't be able to attempt the monaghan, on whatever instrument. Yet they still come out to sessions and wade in on the kesh and so on. No prob with that, but there are a few bits of tricky phrasing on the monaghan that not all sessioneers could do. Explain why that is nonsensical.
# Posted on February 19th 2011 by Rudall the time
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
The Monaghan Jig never struck me as a particularly difficult tune, well within the requirements of any whistle player who is reasonably capable.
To me 'a good player' is someone who has gone beyond the basics of learning an instrument and being able to draw a tune out of it. So having a stab at this or any other tune doesn't earn you the badge, in my eyes at least.
# Posted on February 19th 2011 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
Prof,
I agree, The likes of Rosemary Lane are much trickier, with all that jumping about between octaves. Trixie even when played slowly - to me at any rate.
# Posted on February 19th 2011 by ormepipes
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
Perhaps the questions we should be asking are why did the recorder die out, and the whistle and flute survive? And why do current musicians play whistle and flute in preference to the recorder?
My gut feeling is that if the recorder was suitable, we'd see it being used in preference to the whistle, given its superior chromatic ability.
# Posted on February 19th 2011 by skreech
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
OK, difference in terminology. Your 'reasonably capable' is 'good' to me.
# Posted on February 19th 2011 by Rudall the time
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
Oh dear - I'm so sorry folks - I got the wrong name, wrong jig. (it has been a while!) It's the Mooncoin jig, not the Monaghan. Now I've had time to think about it, it's on this nice little album, played on the recorder. No doubt Prof will find the Mooncoin easy as well
http://www.allcelticmusic.com/music/db2ad6e6-f86e-102a-8020-000f1f67beb1/Orkney_Sessions_from_The_Ayre_Hotel_(The).html
# Posted on February 19th 2011 by Rudall the time
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
It just don't sound quite right. It doesn't tootle like a whistle or burble like a flute. A recorder just kinda prances around. I've heard decent recorder players make it burble and tootle, but it seems to me that it'd be easier to do so with an instrument that does it naturally.
# Posted on February 19th 2011 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
Maybe try a version of Rosemary Lane without the mistakes in the ABC it has in the database here
I don't play the Mooncoin but it has nothing in it that would make it particularly problematic on the whistle.
And I don't fancy myself as much of a whistle player.
# Posted on February 19th 2011 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
I still think Rosemary Lane is trickier. But Moocoin - another one worth a stab at - Thanks !
# Posted on February 19th 2011 by ormepipes
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
If you can play the Langstern Pony or Tom Billy's Mooncoin shouldn't be a problem.
Are we thinking of the same Rosemary Lane?
AG| FEF DFA dce dcB AdB AFD ~E3 EAG ~F3 DFA dce dcB ABd fa gec d || fg ~a3 fed ~g3 ece fed Bcd edB ABc ded AFA Bed cBA fa gec edc d2||
# Posted on February 19th 2011 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
fa should have been faf in both parts
# Posted on February 19th 2011 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
Hmm. Yes, I've just messed around with both of them, and neither are that impossibly difficult. I stand corrected. Interesting set played together, The Monaghan, then the Mooncoin.
As I recall the recorder player still did a good job, though
# Posted on February 19th 2011 by Rudall the time
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
I have yet to hear a recorder, no matter how well played, that has the right timbre for this music. To my ear, a recorder sounds too clean--doesn't have the chiff of a good whistle, or the reediness of a wooden flute.
# Posted on February 19th 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
I suppose recorders were discarded as Classical instruments in favour of other, maybe newer kinds - I don't know when, and I don't know why - and that the supply of new ones discontinued.
A family called Dolmetsch pioneered their revival in England in the 1930s.
# Posted on February 19th 2011 by nicholas
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
Prof,
Its on here as :
FEF DFA|dce dcB|AdB AFD|EFD EAG|
FEF DFA|dce dcB|Ade faf|gec d3 :|
|:aba fed|gfg ecA|fed Bcd|edB ABc|
dedAFA|Bed cbA|faf gec|Adc d3 :|
Almost identical
# Posted on February 19th 2011 by ormepipes
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
But then again, I was following the dots - and they seem different !
# Posted on February 19th 2011 by ormepipes
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
>To my ear, a recorder sounds too clean
I agree, and that's what I meant when I initially said it doesn't seem to sit very well [in trad music sessions]. The track I referred to was of a solo recorder and sounded quite impressive.
# Posted on February 19th 2011 by Rudall the time
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
In fact a recorder sounds LESS clean than a whistle - when doing crossfingered notes, more of the energy goes into higher partials.
The notes where this makes a difference are the mid-range D and C sharp, and the F sharps - other notes common to recorder and whistle are fingered the same and have exactly the same timbre. And a recorder can play in a wider range of keys than a whistle, using crossfingerings, and for those extra crossfingered notes the timbre will also be different - sounds a bit "muted". For common keys, that means that harmonically more remote notes from the tonic are de-emphasized a bit - the scale is less uniform than a whistle. (Professional-grade handmade recorders are often made to heighten this unevenness of tone colour). So if you play a tune on a recorder that cadences on a rising semitone, you often get a brightening of the timbre on the final note. Which is a neat effect a whistle won't give you.
But the physical differences between the two are all at that level of subtlety. The sort of boneheads who trot out cliches about Greensleeves certainly aren't hearing anything like that. They aren't hearing anything much at all through the noise their cultural stereotypes are making in their heads.
In Hungarian there is only one word for both "recorder" and "whistle" - "furulya" does for both. Makes sense to me.
# Posted on February 19th 2011 by Jack Campin
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
To me the point is not so much what you CAN play but what it sounds like. I know a brilliant recorder player who does a nice job of Tam Linn or The Mason's Apron at full speed and with some ornamentation. She's got beautiful, high quality instruments which are in tune. (Being in tune is not the same as 'too clean').
Still - the recorder lacks a certain 'wildness'. To put it differently: it does not give me the urge to play along with on my fiddle like a well played flute or whistle does.
# Posted on February 19th 2011 by kuec
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
Hi Jack, you said:
"But the physical differences between [the whistle and the recorder] are all at that level of subtlety. The sort of boneheads who trot out cliches about Greensleeves certainly aren't hearing anything like that. They aren't hearing anything much at all through the noise their cultural stereotypes are making in their heads.
In Hungarian there is only one word for both "recorder" and "whistle" - "furulya" does for both. Makes sense to me."
It doesn't to me.
We're interested in the place of the recorder in the music, and so we're primarily interested in the sound. The physical differences between the whistle and the recorder may be small, but the effect is audible, and that is what the people referring to Greensleeves (and Telemann) are hearing.
And "the noise of cultural stereotypes" could almost be seen as a definition of traditional music.
Do you have a view about how the recorder fits into our kind of music? Your idea that we only need one word for recorders and whistles implies that they are not distinct; and yet you've explained how they are distinct.
# Posted on February 20th 2011 by Bernie 29
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
I don't believe the denigration of the recorder you get from the less informed sessiongoers has anything at all to do with what they're hearing. It's to do with the smugness of an in-group that needs somebody to despise so they can feel good about themselves.
There are a lot more crap whistle players than crap recorder players in Irish sessions. In fact, the great majority of whistle players are crap. Do these folks conclude the whistle is crap? No. Nor should they. Draw the obvious parallel.
# Posted on February 20th 2011 by Jack Campin
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
I've never been convinced by the recorder, it never sounds quite right to me, but I wouldn't stop someone from playing one in a session if they were making the effort to fit in. Your opinions may vary and be equally valid
I think moany people have their doubts when they see a recorder because 95% or more of the time the player will be a generic folky with eclectic tastes in music from around the world. Nothing wrong with that if that's your bag, but more often than not such a muscian sounds like a dabbler in many traditions rather than someone immersed in one particular style. The nuances of eacvh tradition are glossed over.
That isn't to say that someone primarily interested in Irish (or scottish etc) music might not be a recorder player. But the vast majority of players serious (which doesn't = poe-faced) about irish music will play whistle.
Jack, to my mind there is an obvious conclusion to be drawn from the fact that there are no (statistically all but no anyway) irish traditional musicians* playing recorder rather than whistle. It is alos perhaps worthwhile noting that a fair few realively johnny-come-lately instruments have become adopted by irish traditional musicians over the years: various accordeons, concertina, tenor banjo, madno-thingies. And yet the recorder which has been about for much longer than any of these and which is considerably cheaper has never made any similar inroads.
Of course you can play irish tunes on a recorder, you can play irish tunes on anything, but if you really want to play trad irish _music_ as your main interest you'd be much bettre playing a whistle. If your intersts are spread wider (thinner?) then perhaps a recorder might be of more use to you. A recorder is after all more versatile than a whistle, particularly if you don't carry a stack of differently keyed whistles about with you.
My 2c anyway - Chris
# Posted on February 20th 2011 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
# Posted on February 20th 2011 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
My Manchester mate was BRILLIANT on the recorder.
When I brought him to Belfast everyone stared at him, and asked "What is he playing".
Once he played "The Bucks of Oranmore" as a solo they accepted him.
# Posted on February 20th 2011 by bodhran bliss
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
Does smugness really have anything to do with it? Denigration comes from jangled nerves as much as anything. Maybe thresholds of patience were reached. Rejection of the recorder has to do with a larger group's assesment that the instrument doesn't fit the music. There's no academy out there, smug or otherwise.
# Posted on February 20th 2011 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
...And yes a brilliant recorder player has a better chance to win converts. I'm still not sold on the piano myself; but I'm in a tiny minority there...
# Posted on February 20th 2011 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
As has been pointed out, recorders and good recorder players have been around a long time. Recorders ought to have won their case for broader and lasting inclusion into the music by now.
# Posted on February 20th 2011 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
If, as Mr. Campin says, you can't hear the timbre difference between a recorder and a penny whistle, then, sure, you'll accept the sound of a recorder in this music.
I can hear the difference and recorder doesn't sound right. Which is at least one reason why there aren't legions of recorder players at sessions. Nothing at all to do with smugness, despising, or an "in-group."
# Posted on February 20th 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
"There are a lot more crap whistle players than crap recorder players in Irish sessions"
Well, that's true enough. There's also not a lot of bassoon players, Hammond organ players are thin on the ground, and I've noted a scarce of jew's harps.
The fact that they don't turn up at sessions much hardly counts as an argument for their place in the music, though.
# Posted on February 20th 2011 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
I didn't say a "penny" whistle. I meant a whistle made with comparable technology - same material, same bore profile. Upmarket whistles are often designed to be identical to recorders in every detail but the hole placement. (Conversely, the Hopf Silberton is an upmarket metal whistle with holes placed to make it play like a recorder).
I didn't notice anybody in this thread taking up my specific technical points. Is there anything in Irish music that requires an F sharp to have identical timbre to the G above it? If so, you have an argument for the whistle having a fundamental advantage over the recorder. I don't believe there is even one tune like that, let alone a whole corpus of them.
There are legions of whistle players in sessions who don't sound right and never will sound right because they're duff players who can't hear how bad they are and will never learn. They don't get the opprobrium that a very much better recorder player gets. "Not sounding right" is irrelevant, this is irrational taboo we're dealing with. (I think I know what the historical reasons for it are, and they should have died a death by now).
We can count ourselves lucky that the fiddle, flute and melodeon sneaked in before there were people like that around to say they'd never sound right.
I mainly play Scottish music (on several different instruments, including both recorders and whistles) because in that genre I don't have to deal with crap like this. I no longer have any interest in trying to prove anything to people with attitudes like Will's. I can (and do) still play Irish tunes in Scottish sessions if I want.
# Posted on February 20th 2011 by Jack Campin
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
Jack, you can imagine that you know what my attitudes are, and you can even misrepresent them. It won't win you any converts, and it won't change the fact that recorders do sound different than penny whistles (the instruments that actually *are* used to play this music, regardless of how much or little they cost).
I've never seen a whistle designed and built like a recorder, and that includes some very high end whistles (O'Riordans, Abells, Sindts, Burkes, and Milligans) as well as the usual Clarkes, Generations, and Feadogs.
Which is why whistles for this music sound so different from recorders, and why the former is preferred for this music.
I recently test drove a pricey "violin" that had big, bright, brassy tone. Beautifully focused, bell-like on the high end, smooth and glossy tone on all strings. Sounded totally out of place playing Irish tunes in a session.
"Not sounding right" is precisely why recorders and concert-hall violins aren't played much at all in Irish sessions.
# Posted on February 20th 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
Yes, there are abysmally bad whistle players in sessions. Would that that were otherwise! [Jumps up and down in excited agreement] Would they play any better if they were issued with recorders? (I sort of thought you play Scottish music, btw.)
# Posted on February 20th 2011 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
Jack, what whistles do you play?
# Posted on February 20th 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
Yes, what make of whistles? And while we're at it, what brand of washboard?
# Posted on February 20th 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
I'm intrigued with the notion that recorders are accepted into Scottish music because Scottish music might be more adventurous, more inclusive, more broad minded, or something.
# Posted on February 20th 2011 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
I have an assortment. Probably my fave is a 25-year-old Camac (Generation type) in A, but it's too quiet for anything but a microphone. I haven't used my Susatos in a while - they're in reserve for times when, as somebody here put it, I need to direct traffic in fog.
The ones I'm using most are Hungarian wooden ones: a conical-bore in A by Andras Hodorog (sounds sweet at the extreme high end), and parallel-bore ones in D and A with built-in drones by Gyorgy Ban which do in plumwood what Cathal McConnell does with two Generations and sellotape (the A makes it the world's most compact bagpipe).
The nearest thing I have to a decent normal D whistle is an old Chinese bamboo one (like a Susato with table manners), but I can do pretty much anything it's capable of using a Renaissance-type descant recorder.
I have at least five times that many, all of which I had some specific musical use for at some time and whose hour might yet come again. You probably know how it is.
The one I really, really don't miss is the Overton low G that I swapped for something useful. I truly loathe Overtons.
# Posted on February 20th 2011 by Jack Campin
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
Popcorn aside, I would love a response about Jack's whistles. There are many whistles which I have not played & wouldn't mind reading what anyone has to say about their choice of whistle. Whether I agree with their opinion(s) or not isn't my main concern.
One whistle which I would very much like to play is the MK. I don't think he makes a high whistle. Not that if know of.
# Posted on February 20th 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
...The implication being: that Irish music must be the opposite, if it rejects recorders. Yes, that must be the only explanation. Has to be. Hasn't it?
# Posted on February 20th 2011 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
Cross-posted. Cheers, Jack!
# Posted on February 20th 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
You know this expression" cultural stereotypes" thats being thrown around here. Does it make me a bad guy if I think the recorder is a really crappy sounding English instrument. The crappiest sounding instrument known to man.? It cant make me sound too bad as people are saying way worse things every day here about the glorious sounding instrument known as The Bodhran.
# Posted on February 20th 2011 by big_tab
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
Hmmm, except for the Susatos, I've never run across any whistles of those makes (Camac, Hodorog, Ban, China) in Irish sessions. Could be they sound a lot like recorders.
# Posted on February 20th 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
For what it's worth, I don't think the recorder is a crappy sounding instrument. It dosen't work for me when it's played in a session. Also, for what it's worth, I'm fond of the bodhran too. The piano in Irish music really sets me off, though.
# Posted on February 20th 2011 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
AQ, yes, recorders can be fine instruments--good ones well played sound lovely. I don't think anyone here has suggested otherwise.
But I (and apparently a lot of others) don't care for that "lovely" sound in this music.
I can see why that might annoy a recorder player. Come to think of it, I'm really p*ssed that my local symphony won't let me sit in with my 5 string banjo....
And if someone "played" a washboard at our local Irish session, it would last one tune. Same as the guy who banged two river rocks together claiming he was a percussionist.....
# Posted on February 20th 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m59/crc3006/Banjo-1.jpg
# Posted on February 20th 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
Will. I have suggested otherwise. I think its a sh*te instrument.
# Posted on February 20th 2011 by big_tab
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
No, that would be the piano in Irish music. Each tune must have the requisit opening of "WHOMP WHOMP" from the pianist's left hand.
# Posted on February 20th 2011 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
LOL, big_tab, you've made me think twice. It's been a long time since I heard a truly well-made and well-played recorder, so I went surfing and found this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdcDkIkL2d0&feature=related
You're right. I stand corrected. The recorder, even at its best, really is sh*te.
# Posted on February 20th 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
Never mind that if someone was making those faces gumming the fipple like that, we'd all fall off our stools laughing.
# Posted on February 20th 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
... big_tab you also made the point of referring to it as an English instrument. Why?
# Posted on February 20th 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
Ignorance Ben. I lasted 13 seconds watching your man Will.
# Posted on February 20th 2011 by big_tab
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
LOL, think of it as a Monty Python skit. Or a man being bested by a hookah.
If the recorder had a truly great sound, that clip would be funnier with the sound turned off. But no, it's actually funnier with the sound up.
# Posted on February 20th 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
big_tab, you *did* read my sentence directly beneath the clip link, yes?
# Posted on February 20th 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
I did Will!
# Posted on February 20th 2011 by big_tab
Where'd that come from, Ben? ... I really don't know ;)
More & more I'm considering music is personal. But I'll share anyway. Playing flute is probably as close as I've come to expressing my voice. I would never sing a lead vocal. With flute, however, it's as close as I'll come to real singing. So, for me, playing music is better, more fun, & wonderful, each day.
...
Sorry for the veering away from fipple music.
Carry on!
# Posted on February 20th 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
Will - I never did understand why recorder players wiggle so much. It makes me think they want all the rats in the town to start following them down the street or something.
# Posted on February 20th 2011 by Red Menace
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
Well, let's see if another recorder/whistle player can mediate the acrimonious exchange between Jack and Will. Or, perhaps I can get them both to shoot at me :(
First do they sound different? Yes if you compare the cylindrical bore whistle (most common) with the reverse conical bore recorder (most common). The bore types accentuate different harmonics and have other acoustical qualities. That is an apples to oranges comparison. Not so much difference though if you compare instruments with the same kind of bore (say a Copeland soprano D whistle and a good soprano recorder or a good renaissance recorder with a good cylindrical bore whistle in the same range). But, they still can sound a bit different. This is partially because the fipple area is adjusted differently on the two instruments and partially because the players are trained differently in playing the instrument. But the instruments can sound quite alike in the hands of the right player. After all who here can make a Generation whistle sound quite like Mary Bergin can? So, there is room for both points of view and it is quite easy for folks to talk past each other by ignoring some of the issues.
Second that youtube video: Now really Will, that is totally unfair. You've picked a Tenor recorder example (or at least a recorder lower than an alto). That is a cumbersome instrument and is generally accepted as the most awkward of the entire recorder family. Anyone with one of those at a session ought to be "helped" to go away. Then you've chosen an example of French Baroque music. In general that is pretty awful stuff. Hotteterre is arguably the most boring of the lot. It is sort of the equivalent of asking someone who's never heard pipes before to understand and enjoy pibroch. Unless you've been immersed in Baroque music or recorder music you probably aren't going to enjoy this at all. I've spent quite a bit of time with Baroque music. In general I hate that stuff. So, it is hardly a fair tune to pick to pick out a recorder player.
This is a fairer example despite the ring in the room.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NE6LEH2Ngag
and this is an example of bad playing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qh56XX4y6n4
Now to the basic issue can the recorder fit in ITM: Yes it can fit, but the player needs to understand the tradition and adapt to it just as a classical violinist needs to change to fit. There is a local guy, Dick Hensold (who is also a fine Northumbrian pipes player), who plays recorder all the time professionally with very good Irish groups and other trad groups. You'd welcome him in a session. I tried to find a youtube example but there are none. I would never try playing a recorder at a session, though I have used one for contradances (usually on English tunes from Playford). I'm a good baroque recorder player and played professionally on that instrument for a bit. But I can't make the instrument do what I want for ITM. So I don't try. I'll play and Irish tune from time to time, but wouldn't inflict it on ITM players. Unfortunately there are many recorder players who, like many whistle players and many bodhran players, and many guitar players, are clueless. Come to think of it I suspect the same can be said of box players and fiddle players and flute players too! I suspect though that most ITM players are willing to at least try to help clueless folks playing traditionally acceptable instruments; so long as the clueless one is trying to learn to fit in. I suspect they are much less willing to do help out with an instrument which is traditionally less acceptable and about which they may have less understanding.
So, why did the recorder die out? It was never a cheap instrument to make. The whistle was. And, as concert halls grew and better flutes were developed the limitations of the recorder became unacceptable to listeners. It did NOT die out because it was a "bad" instrument.
In sum, most recorder players should probably shift to whistle to play ITM (for a variety of reasons mostly already expressed), but a fine one who has absorbed the tradition can fit right in. That said I don't know any recorder players who are national or international stars in the ITM world.
# Posted on February 20th 2011 by cboody
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
cboody, your clip of better playing still sounds like a toy to me.
# Posted on February 20th 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
Different strokes for different folks Will. Fair play, but it is just a different world. Did you notice the ornaments in the first section? All improvised, though I doubt spontaneous....
# Posted on February 20th 2011 by cboody
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
Yeah, the ornaments sounded like ornaments, not articulations of timing.
We have a recorder player at our local session. She's very good. And she quit bringing her recorder many years ago, switching to whistle instead. Because her ears told her that recorder didn't fit the music. So now she's a very good whistle player (on a Burke narrow bore D).
I've listened to a lot of baroque music, a lot of clavichord music from that period. Bringing a recorder to an Irish session would be like bringing a clavichord to a blues session.
# Posted on February 20th 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
I wish I even liked the recorder in Baroque music.. Sometimes it can be difficult to watch a Piano Accordeon or a Silver Flute in a session even though some great musicians play them. They dont seem to look right for this music.If I close my eyes and listen to Joanie Madden or Alan Kelly I am in a good place but as soon as I open them something negative happens. I should never have looked at that eejit James Galway playing with Matt Molloy! The recorder brings those feelings to a whole new place...A sh*te instrument.
# Posted on February 20th 2011 by big_tab
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
"Hmmm, except for the Susatos, I've never run across any whistles of those makes (Camac, Hodorog, Ban, China) in Irish sessions."
You can't have played much in Europe if you've never run into a Camac. They're like a Generation with quality control, and used to be pretty common. Camac was the largest maker of folk instruments in France. They only made whistles for a few years, but made a LOT of them in that time. They now specialize in harps. I have an A and an E flat Camac whistle. (I also have a rather peculiar Praetorius-copy Renaissance recorder they made in ebony; it has the advantage that I can bash on with it for hours without it stuffing up as most wooden recorders/whistles do after that time, but its intonation is a bit iffy).
"Could be they sound a lot like recorders."
Here's Hodorog playing one of his own whistles.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYP7R5tyu7o
Yes, you can make a recorder sound like that if you try. You can also make that whistle sound like any other conical-bore A whistle if you desist from the buzzing effect Hodorog is using.
Cathal McConnell plays a Chinese bamboo whistle like mine sometimes, and I'm pretty sure I've seen him with a Camac. You've probably never heard of him. Somebody else you'd tell to p*ss off and not come near your session before hearing them, no doubt.
# Posted on February 20th 2011 by Jack Campin
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
"And if someone "played" a washboard at our local Irish session, it would last one tune."
I agree, and I wouldn't use it on Irish music, except perhaps for some polkas played in the Scottish style. I play it like a danceband snare/cymbal kit, which is a sound that is appropriate for Scottish ceilidh band music.
# Posted on February 20th 2011 by Jack Campin
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
Camacs were never very common among player. They were out in the shops by the late seventies. I still have a Bflat which doesn't get marks for subtlety and refinement.
# Posted on February 20th 2011 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
You should get up to date and buy a washing machine with built-in dryer instead of a washboard. They keep a good beat on the spin cycle, but maybe they are slightly heavier than a washboard, but you can get a bargain at Curries for under £300. And you will need a water supply and outlet, not common in session pubs, but speak to your landlord you never know. Tell him you have the ear of influential politicians.
Also maybe chopsticks will replace spoons some day.
# Posted on February 20th 2011 by Rudall the time
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
...and a clothes dryer with boots tumbling in it, to synthesize that wonderfull free-association style of bodhran playing everybody loves. Can't have too much of that.
# Posted on February 20th 2011 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
A couple of points: I have a good friend who plays ITM on recorder. Sounds quite good, but lacks an Irish sound. I have a Ralph Sweet recorder made of wood that is designed like a recorder and is also voiced like one. However, I am not happy with the overall quality (it was a gift), and so I don't play it.
I think that recorder died out because of the popularty of the flute for classical music and the whistle for folk because you don't have to deal with a thumb hole to get the second octave, which is a real pain.
# Posted on February 20th 2011 by Ailin
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
Correction: The Sweet instrument is a whistle, not a recorder.
# Posted on February 20th 2011 by Ailin
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
Well Will, I said I wouldn't bring a recorder to a session because I couldn't get it to do what I want; which is to say it wouldn't play the music the way I wanted it. So, I suspect, we are not very far apart on that.
Yeah the ornaments sound like ornaments because that is what they are. Sure different from ITM style!
I'm sorry you don't like recorders in baroque music. I do think that recorder is an acquired taste, and like olives some folks just don't acquire it. Loved the clavichord comparison though! I had this wonderful image of BB King and a clavichord player....
big_tab you'll have to wind up someone else.
Allin, you're wrong about why the recorder died out. It died out because musical tastes changed drastically at the end of the baroque. Essentially the trend was toward more "emotion" (some would say romanticism) in music and the thing was to get as close to the voice as possible. The flute was decreed as the closest to the human voice. Whatever the recorder is or isn't it definitely is not a "romantic" instrument. So, it went away. It is useful to note that at that period most wind players played oboe, flute, and recorder (and often violin too) so they just shifted to the instrument that was in fashion. So they didn't mind the changes. Bach uses recorders to imply the "old" style of music in several of his cantatas.
Looks like my efforts at mediating went for naught. Ah well...it was worth a try... Got to listen to Jack's example...
# Posted on February 20th 2011 by cboody
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
In re Jack's example of "recorder." It might be best to think of all these intruments as end blown fipple flutes and forget about the whistle/recorder thing. The instrument being played may be called a recorder, but the fingering was very much like playing a D whistle in the key of G. There was no fingering pattern related to baroque recorder as far as I could tell.
# Posted on February 20th 2011 by cboody
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
I've been following this thread with interest. I'd regard myself as a competent recorder player and an aspiring fiddle player - haven't dared to dust off my recorder at an Irish session yet and after posting on this thread recently, probably never will!
The same goes for the recorder as any other instrument. If you are bad, you are bad! Compotent players would have no problems with jumping the octave, for instance, which seems to be cited to be a major negative point! If they are a beginner, then they will have to get to grips with whichever instrument they have picked, same goes for anything. Unfortunately the recorder still hasnt' shed its image as a beginners' instrument, which students murder and then choose to move on from! As anything else, it is hard to play well. Most people don't take the trouble. There is some pretty far out modern recorder music out there if anyone is interested in seeing the instrument's technical capabilites in the right hands.
The tone and timbre obviously depends on what recorder you buy. You can spends thousands if you want, depending on the effect you want, and type of playing you want to do. So you could pick something similar to the whistle sound, if desired. And you can get recorders in any key, not just C and F. So there is just as much flexibility here as with whistles. There are plenty of rubbish recorders out there, with players who can't hear it. And, in baroque amateur circles, plenty of terrible players with very pricey instruments.. So no different to any other tradition.
Volume is possibly one other reason why recorders didn't stay popular. Just think of the Brandenburg concerto with the trumpet, violin and recorder - poor thing doesn't stand a chance. That is one major disadvantage - trying to increase the volume usually results in the tone and intonation cracking.
Style is perhaps one problem that good players will have if they come to ITM from classical/baroque. They'll be accustomed to ornamentation but of a very different type. I myself am not too fixated to style as some folk on this board seem to be. I just like to play good tunes and it doesn't bother me if it doesn't fit a fixed tradition. Just depends who you play with and if they object, I suppose! This hasn't been a problem in Scottish sessions - perhaps they were atypically open minded and I didn't realise my good fortune?
BTW does anyone know why the recorder is cited as an English instrument? I have been wondering. In a previous thread about the recorder, this was also mentioned.
I personally think there is room for the recorder here! Some variety is a good thing, although I can appreciate that purists might want to keep things pure in their eyes!
# Posted on February 20th 2011 by charl_berry
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
Nice post charl. For me its not about being a purist. It sounds wrong.
# Posted on February 20th 2011 by big_tab
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
charl_berry how might you characterize the distinction between ornamentation, & say articulation, in different styles, or genres, of playing? I use ornamentation in a wholly different way from how I articulate Irish tunes. Also, what does the phrase a "fixed tradition" mean, or imply?
# Posted on February 20th 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
Ben:
By 'fixed tradition', I mean ITM or whatever. I had thought when starting to learn Scottish fiddle that it was a living tradition ie open to developing, doing things a new way, pushing the boundaries, using non-traditional instruments. This has been my experience by playing and going to gigs in Scotland, but does this then count as traditional music, folk, or what (I don't want to start that thread again!).
But my impressions from following this list from time to time is that ITM particuarly (if this is an ITM list and therefore representative - I have no knowledge of Irish music) is quite conservative and 'pure' ie no pianos, guitars, recorders etc. There seems to be a 'fixed' idea on this list or dominant members within it about what is tradtionally acceptable and what is not.
I don't have a problem with this, coming from a classical background, where most of your time is spent learning a particular style or technique (although there are trends - modern recorder players would not follow the techniques advocated by the Dolmetsch revivalists in the 20th c, for example, since research would suggest that a more 'authentic' approach has been found. How do you ever know when you have got back to the root of what is traditional or authentic??!).
I must admit that I am not sure what you mean when you say 'articulation'. I;'d understand it on a wind instrument to mean slurring, tonguing etc and get the impression that this is a stylistic device on the whistle ie sluring all the time or not or something inbetween? I am a novice on this one so would welcome your thoughts!
Cheers, Charlotte
# Posted on February 21st 2011 by charl_berry
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
Charlotte, I am not your best source for describing the difference between ornamentation & articulation. I'm trying to recall who might be. Fintan Vallely, perhaps in his book ~ Timber Irish Flute Tutor. Short of that I'll make the attempt.
You'll often hear, & read, references to *ornamentation* in Irish music. The term is used, & though it is easy to assume ornamentation in Irish music is the same, or similar, to the ornamentation of Baroque music. It is not.
Articulation, as I understand it, is rarely if ever additional notes (pitches) within the melody used to embellish the tune. They may look like notes when played; though they aren't, or rarely are, discernible pitches. Instead they provide phrasing, emphasis, rhythmic interpretation.
....
Sorry, Charlotte.
There is something to articulation. It is important in playing Irish dance tunes. I'm simply too much of an edjit to even begin to provide you with an adequate description of articulation.
Before I mislead you further, this is something I want to point out. I'm just not willing, at present, to explain it in detail when someone, with more experience, will most likely do a much better job than myself.
I throw myself on the mercy of those better articulators.
Cheers,
Ben
# Posted on February 21st 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
There's a bit of recorder playing on "Penguin Eggs", the classic 80s album of the singer Nic Jones. It's backing one or more songs, not playing dance tunes, but it's there all the same.
# Posted on February 21st 2011 by nicholas
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
Charlotte -
There is an excellent explaination of whistle ornamentation in Irish trad on the following site: http://www.rogermillington.com/siamsa/brosteve/
Just look at the section headed "twiddly bits"
# Posted on February 21st 2011 by Red Menace
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
Re: Cathal McConnell.
Funny, I first met him in 1977, in Boston. Then again every few years up until the Boys' last visit to Montana, hmmm, about 15 years ago maybe. I've had tunes with him and enjoyed his songs and stories in small house sessions many times.
So Mr. Campin, before you assume that you know anything about me and in the same breath accuse me of excluding people I know nothing about, take a long look in the mirror.
Besides, what I said was if someone (not you in particular) played a washboard at our local session, it would last one tune. I'd then ask them, nicely, to stop. You may think that the washboard is a musical instrument. Other people, including myself, disagree. Given that it's my local session, I'd have the last word on this, with full support of my session mates.
Jack, perhaps you feel a touch "set upon" and defensive here because you've specialized in instruments and noisemakers outside the typical quiver of those used to play this music. The remedy for that, instead of denigrating the people who do play this music, might be to learn to play a more suitable and accepted instrument. Or is that championing the obvious?
# Posted on February 21st 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
LOL, here's a lovely clip of a "jam" playing Planxty Irwin complete with a recorder AND a washboard. You have to turn your volume up pretty high to hear the rat-a-tat-tat of the flippin' washboard.
Thank my lucky stars that NO session I've ever played in has sounded this bad.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zOOSPkzIT_g
# Posted on February 21st 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
LOL: "Here's Hodorog playing one of his own whistles."
But who can tell what it sounds like? Sorry, but the bloke beating the crap out of the double-course armadillo apparently thinks "subtle" and "nuance" are brands of French cigarettes.
What little I could hear of the Hodorog whistle? I hope they cost less than a Walton's or Clarke.....
# Posted on February 21st 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
I'm happy to say I didn't notice the washboard. But how could you tell it was Planxty Irwin given the intonation?
I am reminded of a comment of a fine recorder playing friend of mine when I asked how he could stand dealing with the local recorder society, "There's little call for professional recorder players, but a great call for music therapy." I do wish they wouldn't post the therapy sessions on youtube though. It is one thing to get together and enjoy making music at whatever level. It is quite another to make those attempts public if they are at that level.
BTW there were at least two recorders.....
# Posted on February 21st 2011 by cboody
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
@Charlotte I think the reason some folks think the recorder is an English instrument is because of the impact of the Dolmetsch revival of the instrument there.
It won't be the last bit of wrong information we'll foist on you!
# Posted on February 21st 2011 by cboody
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
Intonation? Which one? (Which would be explained by the presence of two recorders....)
Looks to me like the man sitting to the right of the recorder woman is playing a whistle. And she switches to a bigger bazooka recorder for the second tune.
# Posted on February 21st 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
What do you mean which one? There wasn't any! I must admit to not looking very long, though I did last up to the instrument change you mention. Tenor recorder again I think. A truly awful instrument in most cases. I really hated trying to play it when it was "my turn." in recorder ensembles. Still like recorders, but Heaven protect me from jams like that video.....
# Posted on February 21st 2011 by cboody
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
Dystonation then....
I was trying to be polite when I called it a bazooka.
# Posted on February 21st 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
Charlotte here is a bit more on articulation from a past discussion;
" ... certain articulations are "traditional" and others are not--it's all about rhythm and timing. A trill fills space, but not in a particularly rhythmic way. It's more like fillagree added to embelish a note, not the rhythm.
... Irish trad musicians favor articulations that enhance pulse and create a sense of rhythmic lift (and also suspense or surprise). The articulations are peculiar to each instrument, and they've developed to suit the music (so that an Irish roll, for example, is different than a classical mordant)."
# Posted on February 21st 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
"I was trying to be polite when I called it a bazooka."
You were!
# Posted on February 21st 2011 by cboody
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
A tenor recorder works fine for slower music - tends to be quieter than a low whistle and is always quieter than a transverse flute, but that doesn't always matter. The Aulos plastic one is a good deal - it's balanced towards the low register, like most flutes used for Irish music. Easy to come by on EBay. The Yamaha plays quicker and easier at the top end, with better intonation, but has a less interesting tone.
I have good wooden ones that have the responsiveness to play pretty much anything, but in that pitch and price range a low whistle is better value for money if you don't need the chromatic potential of a recorder (and have the hand size to work it - a tenor recorder has better ergonomics).
I know somebody who gums the tin whistle the same way that guy does with his tenor recorder. There's no need for it on any instrument - I'd be worried about knocking my teeth out. Doing It Right here (not one of her better performances, but the only video I could find of her on the tenor):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FrCYCNorHXU
# Posted on February 21st 2011 by Jack Campin
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
Re: articulation
"Traditional Irish diddley music has evolved within the limitations of the instruments it's played on and will continue to do so. But it has also evolved to exploit what the instruments are capable of. And part of that evolving was/is the invention of cuts, rolls, taps, crans etc."
... #comment366665 ... llig
... "But yes, a lot of Irish music's articulation is about how to put rhythm into a continuos tone. Both by Interrupting the continuous tone with very very precisely placed blips and squeaks and by letting the tone flow uninterrupted to accentuate where you do interrupt it."
May 2nd 2008 by llig leahcim
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/17606/comments#comment366705
# Posted on February 25th 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
I make a recorder in D - tis a lot easier
# Posted on July 28th 2011 by pistyllgwyn
Re: The recorder and recorder players in our music.
I've got a tenor in D (aka voiceflute) - probably from just-pre-Third-Reich Germany. (It's one of the instruments Hindemith's "Ploener Musiktag" trio was written for).
It's useful for two things: playing in extreme sharp keys, and playing in ordinary keys with flat-key fingering. The latter is nice for some Carolan tunes normally played in G - doing them effectively in F means you get a softer and more subtle timbre due to the extra crossfingerings.
But it's not much use for playing normal session tunes in D when you want lift and energy. The fingering pattern is just too alien when you're effectively in C, and the sound of 7 fingers down is too muted.
# Posted on July 28th 2011 by Jack Campin