I've been brushing up my skills on my Irish-made 22 string ballad harp and wanted to throw out a couple of questions to the group...
First, as some of you know, I play banjo in sessions. I do play guitar, but I'm not one to play a guitar at a trad. session. I've had a small harp for a long time and was thinking of bringing it once in awhile as a second instrument, for variety. (this is a real "Celtic" harp, not an autoharp or zyther).
Question #1: When you see one of these harps at a session, do you usually expect the harpist to play melody or just to accompany / back the tunes with chords?
Question #2. When I've come across these harps before, the harpist often has a small, battery-powered amp. Since it is a relatively quiet instrument, would this be viewed as an exception to the no electronics rule? I'm talking a tiny amp that makes the harp just a wee bit louder. Or should there be nb amp whatsoever, and if it can't be heard, too bad?
1 - I don't know, I never see them at sessions. In the time I've been in Boston, I've seen a harp exactly once at a session, and I can't think of seeing them in Portland, either.
I suppose I'd probably expect to hear more accompaniment, because I've played with harpists before and I know that you can't really get an unamplified one up to playing with a full company of fiddles and boxen and the like.
Which brings us to
2 - I wouldn't go into a mad rampage, bust the harp to bits, smash the amplifier over the harpist's head, and throw harpist and remaining bits of kit out into a snowbank, shouting incoherently all the while about the values of preserving the tradition, but I would probably not be inclined to be very happy about any amplifier at a session. It's a pretty clear line, and screwing with it seems silly. Don't amplify - if it's too loud, or not loud enough, sorry. It's already enough of a bother dealing with tuning, I don't want to have to negotiate people's amplifier settings too. No amps, if I have my say in the matter.
I like flatpicking tunes on the guitar, but you can't do it at a session unless everyone either shuts up or brings their volume down to where you are, so I don't do it at a session unless a) someone hands me a guitar and asks me to pick a set or b) someone has a nice guitar that I want to try out, and it's the end of the night and everyone's packing up anyway so why not, after all, what harm can it do.
If you start having amplifiers, I have the option of bringing my guitar and just plugging in a wee tim'rous cowering ampie, you'd never know it was there, it'll just be under my chair - and then maybe someone's got a quiet little fiddle, and tthey start bringing their amp, and after a while all of the sound in the room is coming from under everyone's chair and we're coming in an hour early for soundcheck and you don't just have to worry about getting a chair, you have to worry about getting a plug, and enough, it makes me tired just thinking about it.
No amps, says me.
Maybe you get out more than me, but I've never seen a harpist with a small, battery-powered amp at a session. In addition, the only amps of that description I have had anything to do with have sounded very unpleasant. And what Jon Kiparsky said.
1. I'd expect a harp player to do both.
2. No amp - never seen a harp player use one, even with a knee harp. If nobody in the session is prepared to listen and play a bit more gently now and again to allow the harp to be heard, that would speak volumes to me...
Two of our sessions up here have Harp players & yes, they play both melody & accompaniment ... their choice of course.
As one would expect, the other musicians play with them .. NOT against them!
As for "a small, battery-powered amp.", I can't remember ever seeing one at a Session for any instrument.
However, you are talking about sessions across the pond Steven & from the photos I've seen of American sessions, I notice they can be huge affairs with many, many musicians taking part, often gathered around in huge circles ... I wonder, does this habit go back to ye olden Wagon Train days? ... safety in numbers & all that!
But seriously Steven, in huge sessions, I can see where the sound of a quiet instrument might well be lost, but I personally would never be tempted to go down the amp route, although when playing my Mandolin in session, you'd think I might be tempted.
One of the joys of sessions over here, for me at least, is that cosy, intimate feeling you get, when playing around a table Pub or Kitchen, with a handful of musicians, the whole point being that you can hear ALL the other instruments & how your music interacts. I avoid Fleadhs & big sessions ... I just don't see the point .... when too many musicians gather up, it just becomes noise!
If you are having a problem being heard, I'd look at this from a different angle & try to start another session, with a smaller number of musicians, then you can be sure you'll hear your Harp ... just a thought.
As for Harps in Sessions, you may not believe this, but I have actually heard people say they reckon they don't actually belong in Irish Trad sessions!!!!! ...... which is surely a bit like saying clouds don't belong in the sky!
If it's a decent harp, you won't need an amp. There's a harp player who goes to East Durham, and she brings a smallish 26-string Dusty to the monster-play-alongs (What most people call sessions) - There can easily be 40, 50, sometimes more people playing in the room. But at least in this person's local vicinity, she's quite audible and adds a lot. Harps occupy a sonic space that doesn't quite match that of anything else.
I do know one harper who brings a small amp to a session, and sits it under his seat. It's simply to bring it up to an audible level in a noisy session, not to dominate.
Discretion in times like these is much to be appreciated.
What's a ballad harp? Just never heard that term before. A harp would be welcome at our quiet fledgling session http://www.thesession.org/sessions/display/2607 and you wouldn't need an amp to be heard.
I did attend a singing session once (not trad particulary) in a noisier setting and the session regulars suggested a small amp for my harmonica which was having trouble being heard
Thanks, everyone, for the comments. Sounds to me like I should give it a go sometime and see...first w/o any elecronics and then, MAYBE consider a small "pocket sized" amp if people want that. Maybe not.
Or maybe I should just stick to the banjo. We'll see.
I play harp regularly in sessions. A harp as small as yours would be problematical. Unless your session is quite small, you won't be heard playing melody. With so few strings, you may not be heard playing backup either. I usually play backup, and it's playing in the bass range that adds the most to the session mix. My backup style is not all gentle arpeggios -- there's a lot walking bass, inverted chords and some tasteful syncopation. I guess I've listened to a lot of Cape Breton "stride" piano. ;^)
I'd say go ahead and take your harp out for a few tunes. Even if no one can hear you well, you'll have fun. This isn't a performance where a whole band needs to be balanced. You'll probably be asked to play an air, Carolan probably, and it will be your time to shine. They never seem to get tired of Shebeg Shemor, even if you do. If you're backing up, try to match chords with at least one other backer. Don't be embarrassed to ask what key the tune is in so you can flip the appropriate levers, and don't be surprised if no one actually knows the key signature -- they just play the tunes. You'll figure it out, even if you have to go home and listen to some CDs. Get the tunes in your head and with practice the fingers will follow, whether melody or accompaniment. Most of all, have fun.
BTW, what is a "ballad" harp? I've never heard of a harp named for a form of music. Is it a brand or model name?
I'd echo everything Tracie (above) says. And if the harp has a clear sound, rather than muddying everything else, then go for it and see what happens! I used to take my Pilgrim (gut strung) to sessions, but now use the Ravenna 34, which is a fabulous instrument. But like every other instrument, it's also wise to sit out occasionally and enjoy what everyone else is doing. For me that's the essence of a session - bringing an instrument is a privilege that gives me the chance to sit right in the middle of a group of people making amazing music.
I'm thinking of Chopin's famous quote...harpists spend half their time tuning and the other half playing out of tune...I have a 7th grader at my school who has one harp at home and another at school so she can play in the orchestra. I love the harp and all its attendant logistical considerations.
1. I have seen folk harps at sessions a few times. It did not, for me, work. I could not really hear the thing, and if there were any other backers, forget it.
2. If a harper brought an amp to a session and plugged in, my only question would be,
"Does it work?"
Meaning, does it offend anyones sensibilities, does it work musically, does the unit get in the way, etc. etc.
Remember, you are talking about going to someone else' ssession and adding something new and/or strange.
Be courteous and respectful and who knows? might be the start of something positive.
Also remember:
The only constant is change, and someone has to be the first with an idea, or we would have no italian violins, french flutes, spanish guitars, german accordians, shakey eggs, or djembe drums in ITM today.
"Ooh, Piece, I'm not sure I like the harp being lumpted in with some of those other things you mention, given its place in Irish music"
eh.... isn't that the whole point? The instruments with a 'place in Irish music' have not all always had a 'place in Irish music' They must have been 'new' at some point.
I've heard a couple of harps at sessions, one that was pleasant and unobtrusive, the other loud and booming, playing mostly back-up - a fine job of it, too, but it took over the room. That one had a booming lower register, for some reason. By the end of the night, I'd had enough of the thing.
Ballad harp at sessions? Two questions
Ballad harp at sessions? Two questions
I've been brushing up my skills on my Irish-made 22 string ballad harp and wanted to throw out a couple of questions to the group...
First, as some of you know, I play banjo in sessions. I do play guitar, but I'm not one to play a guitar at a trad. session. I've had a small harp for a long time and was thinking of bringing it once in awhile as a second instrument, for variety. (this is a real "Celtic" harp, not an autoharp or zyther).
Question #1: When you see one of these harps at a session, do you usually expect the harpist to play melody or just to accompany / back the tunes with chords?
Question #2. When I've come across these harps before, the harpist often has a small, battery-powered amp. Since it is a relatively quiet instrument, would this be viewed as an exception to the no electronics rule? I'm talking a tiny amp that makes the harp just a wee bit louder. Or should there be nb amp whatsoever, and if it can't be heard, too bad?
# Posted on February 14th 2011 by Steven Hawson
Re: Ballad harp at sessions? Two questions
1 - I don't know, I never see them at sessions. In the time I've been in Boston, I've seen a harp exactly once at a session, and I can't think of seeing them in Portland, either.
I suppose I'd probably expect to hear more accompaniment, because I've played with harpists before and I know that you can't really get an unamplified one up to playing with a full company of fiddles and boxen and the like.
Which brings us to
2 - I wouldn't go into a mad rampage, bust the harp to bits, smash the amplifier over the harpist's head, and throw harpist and remaining bits of kit out into a snowbank, shouting incoherently all the while about the values of preserving the tradition, but I would probably not be inclined to be very happy about any amplifier at a session. It's a pretty clear line, and screwing with it seems silly. Don't amplify - if it's too loud, or not loud enough, sorry. It's already enough of a bother dealing with tuning, I don't want to have to negotiate people's amplifier settings too. No amps, if I have my say in the matter.
I like flatpicking tunes on the guitar, but you can't do it at a session unless everyone either shuts up or brings their volume down to where you are, so I don't do it at a session unless a) someone hands me a guitar and asks me to pick a set or b) someone has a nice guitar that I want to try out, and it's the end of the night and everyone's packing up anyway so why not, after all, what harm can it do.
If you start having amplifiers, I have the option of bringing my guitar and just plugging in a wee tim'rous cowering ampie, you'd never know it was there, it'll just be under my chair - and then maybe someone's got a quiet little fiddle, and tthey start bringing their amp, and after a while all of the sound in the room is coming from under everyone's chair and we're coming in an hour early for soundcheck and you don't just have to worry about getting a chair, you have to worry about getting a plug, and enough, it makes me tired just thinking about it.
No amps, says me.
# Posted on February 14th 2011 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Ballad harp at sessions? Two questions
Maybe you get out more than me, but I've never seen a harpist with a small, battery-powered amp at a session. In addition, the only amps of that description I have had anything to do with have sounded very unpleasant. And what Jon Kiparsky said.
# Posted on February 14th 2011 by gam
Re: Ballad harp at sessions? Two questions
1. I'd expect a harp player to do both.
2. No amp - never seen a harp player use one, even with a knee harp. If nobody in the session is prepared to listen and play a bit more gently now and again to allow the harp to be heard, that would speak volumes to me...
# Posted on February 14th 2011 by On Sabbatical
Re: Ballad harp at sessions? Two questions
Two of our sessions up here have Harp players & yes, they play both melody & accompaniment ... their choice of course.
As one would expect, the other musicians play with them .. NOT against them!
As for "a small, battery-powered amp.", I can't remember ever seeing one at a Session for any instrument.
However, you are talking about sessions across the pond Steven & from the photos I've seen of American sessions, I notice they can be huge affairs with many, many musicians taking part, often gathered around in huge circles ... I wonder, does this habit go back to ye olden Wagon Train days? ... safety in numbers & all that!
But seriously Steven, in huge sessions, I can see where the sound of a quiet instrument might well be lost, but I personally would never be tempted to go down the amp route, although when playing my Mandolin in session, you'd think I might be tempted.
One of the joys of sessions over here, for me at least, is that cosy, intimate feeling you get, when playing around a table Pub or Kitchen, with a handful of musicians, the whole point being that you can hear ALL the other instruments & how your music interacts. I avoid Fleadhs & big sessions ... I just don't see the point .... when too many musicians gather up, it just becomes noise!
If you are having a problem being heard, I'd look at this from a different angle & try to start another session, with a smaller number of musicians, then you can be sure you'll hear your Harp ... just a thought.
As for Harps in Sessions, you may not believe this, but I have actually heard people say they reckon they don't actually belong in Irish Trad sessions!!!!! ...... which is surely a bit like saying clouds don't belong in the sky!
Cheers
Dick
# Posted on February 14th 2011 by Ptarmigan
Re: Ballad harp at sessions? Two questions
If it's a decent harp, you won't need an amp. There's a harp player who goes to East Durham, and she brings a smallish 26-string Dusty to the monster-play-alongs (What most people call sessions) - There can easily be 40, 50, sometimes more people playing in the room. But at least in this person's local vicinity, she's quite audible and adds a lot. Harps occupy a sonic space that doesn't quite match that of anything else.
# Posted on February 14th 2011 by wormdiet
Re: Ballad harp at sessions? Two questions
I do know one harper who brings a small amp to a session, and sits it under his seat. It's simply to bring it up to an audible level in a noisy session, not to dominate.
Discretion in times like these is much to be appreciated.
# Posted on February 14th 2011 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Ballad harp at sessions? Two questions
What's a ballad harp? Just never heard that term before. A harp would be welcome at our quiet fledgling session http://www.thesession.org/sessions/display/2607 and you wouldn't need an amp to be heard.
I did attend a singing session once (not trad particulary) in a noisier setting and the session regulars suggested a small amp for my harmonica which was having trouble being heard
# Posted on February 14th 2011 by harmonic miner
Re: Ballad harp at sessions? Two questions
I'd expect a harpist to play both melody and accompaniment simultaneously - it's what all those strings are for, right? : )
Stay away from big, thrashy sessions of 10+ participants in noisy pubs.
Try to find smaller, quieter sessions, perhaps on week nights, where your harp may be a welcome addition.
Or, you may have to get a small group of sympathizers together and go start your own session somewhere.
# Posted on February 14th 2011 by Seosamh Ui Sinan
Re: Ballad harp at sessions? Two questions
And don't bother with an amp unless you're being paid to be loud in a gigging situation. Sessions should be all acoustic.
# Posted on February 14th 2011 by Seosamh Ui Sinan
Re: Ballad harp at sessions? Two questions
Thanks, everyone, for the comments. Sounds to me like I should give it a go sometime and see...first w/o any elecronics and then, MAYBE consider a small "pocket sized" amp if people want that. Maybe not.
Or maybe I should just stick to the banjo. We'll see.
Cheers,
Steven
# Posted on February 14th 2011 by Steven Hawson
Re: Ballad harp at sessions? Two questions
I play harp regularly in sessions. A harp as small as yours would be problematical. Unless your session is quite small, you won't be heard playing melody. With so few strings, you may not be heard playing backup either. I usually play backup, and it's playing in the bass range that adds the most to the session mix. My backup style is not all gentle arpeggios -- there's a lot walking bass, inverted chords and some tasteful syncopation. I guess I've listened to a lot of Cape Breton "stride" piano. ;^)
I'd say go ahead and take your harp out for a few tunes. Even if no one can hear you well, you'll have fun. This isn't a performance where a whole band needs to be balanced. You'll probably be asked to play an air, Carolan probably, and it will be your time to shine. They never seem to get tired of Shebeg Shemor, even if you do. If you're backing up, try to match chords with at least one other backer. Don't be embarrassed to ask what key the tune is in so you can flip the appropriate levers, and don't be surprised if no one actually knows the key signature -- they just play the tunes. You'll figure it out, even if you have to go home and listen to some CDs. Get the tunes in your head and with practice the fingers will follow, whether melody or accompaniment. Most of all, have fun.
BTW, what is a "ballad" harp? I've never heard of a harp named for a form of music. Is it a brand or model name?
# Posted on February 14th 2011 by Tracie
Re: Ballad harp at sessions? Two questions
I'd echo everything Tracie (above) says. And if the harp has a clear sound, rather than muddying everything else, then go for it and see what happens! I used to take my Pilgrim (gut strung) to sessions, but now use the Ravenna 34, which is a fabulous instrument. But like every other instrument, it's also wise to sit out occasionally and enjoy what everyone else is doing. For me that's the essence of a session - bringing an instrument is a privilege that gives me the chance to sit right in the middle of a group of people making amazing music.
# Posted on February 14th 2011 by Mark Harmer
Re: Ballad harp at sessions? Two questions
I'm thinking of Chopin's famous quote...harpists spend half their time tuning and the other half playing out of tune...I have a 7th grader at my school who has one harp at home and another at school so she can play in the orchestra. I love the harp and all its attendant logistical considerations.
# Posted on February 15th 2011 by Greg the Piano Tuner
Re: Ballad harp at sessions? Two questions
I agree - it's a bonkers instrument really. I often think of taking up the ocarina. Think how easy it would be to pack up at the end of a gig!
# Posted on February 15th 2011 by Mark Harmer
Re: Ballad harp at sessions? Two questions
1. I have seen folk harps at sessions a few times. It did not, for me, work. I could not really hear the thing, and if there were any other backers, forget it.
2. If a harper brought an amp to a session and plugged in, my only question would be,
"Does it work?"
Meaning, does it offend anyones sensibilities, does it work musically, does the unit get in the way, etc. etc.
Remember, you are talking about going to someone else' ssession and adding something new and/or strange.
Be courteous and respectful and who knows? might be the start of something positive.
Also remember:
The only constant is change, and someone has to be the first with an idea, or we would have no italian violins, french flutes, spanish guitars, german accordians, shakey eggs, or djembe drums in ITM today.
Nor saxophones.
Ow.
# Posted on February 15th 2011 by Piece
Re: Ballad harp at sessions? Two questions
"Chopin's famous quote ... harpists spend half their time tuning and the other half playing out of tune"
Makes you wonder, what he would have had to say about Uilleann Pipers then!
# Posted on February 15th 2011 by Ptarmigan
Re: Ballad harp at sessions? Two questions
Ooh, Piece, I'm not sure I like the harp being lumpted in with some of those other things you mention, given its place in Irish music!!
# Posted on February 15th 2011 by Mark Harmer
Re: Ballad harp at sessions? Two questions
Lumpted? That's a new word too!
# Posted on February 15th 2011 by Mark Harmer
Re: Ballad harp at sessions? Two questions
"Ooh, Piece, I'm not sure I like the harp being lumpted in with some of those other things you mention, given its place in Irish music"
eh.... isn't that the whole point? The instruments with a 'place in Irish music' have not all always had a 'place in Irish music' They must have been 'new' at some point.
# Posted on February 15th 2011 by harmonic miner
Re: Ballad harp at sessions? Two questions
I've heard a couple of harps at sessions, one that was pleasant and unobtrusive, the other loud and booming, playing mostly back-up - a fine job of it, too, but it took over the room. That one had a booming lower register, for some reason. By the end of the night, I'd had enough of the thing.
# Posted on February 15th 2011 by sara505sings
Re: Ballad harp at sessions? Two questions
do you tune a harp Every time you play, as on fretted instruments ?
# Posted on February 16th 2011 by harmonic miner
Re: Ballad harp at sessions? Two questions
"They must have been 'new' at some point."
They laughed the first time I unpacked my xylophone....
# Posted on February 17th 2011 by Piece