Hi. Thinking of getting myself an accordion. I'm into Irish music, and I like the fact that tradition Irish accordion is usually b/c (effectively making it fully chromatic, so I'm told). But I don't just want to play tunes, I also want to accompany people, improvise, maybe experiment with other genres of music a little.
Is the b/c box ok for that sort of thing? Or would I be better off getting a piano-accordion?
"Is the b/c box ok for that sort of thing? Or would I be better off getting a piano-accordion? "
CC# is chromatic too. Any of the three would be suitable.
"Fully chromatic" is a bit misleading. All of the notes are there, but all except two are only available in one bellows direction, so if you want to play right-hand chords, you're limited. Also, in some keys, the scale is completely non-intuitive, making it very difficult to learn.
[I'll refer below only to major keys. The remarks apply to the corresponding modes with the same sharps/flats.]
B/C is well-suited to F, C, G and D (though to play in F and C you use what would usually be considered C#/D technique). C#/D is well-suited to G, D, A and E (though to play in A and E you use what would usually be considered B/C technique).
Particularly on slower tunes, into which category song accompaniment would usually fall, A, E, B and F# aren't bad on the B/C and B, F#, C# and Ab aren't bad on the C#/D.
The other keys are well beyond what my brain can handle.
Presumably on C/C#, the good keys would be F#, C#, Ab and Eb; the ok keys would be Bb, F, C and G; and the crazy keys would be D, E, A and E.
There's also D/D#, where the good keys would be Ab, Bb, Eb and F; the ok keys would be C, D, G, and A; and the bad keys would be C#, E, F# and B.
There are also boxes where the rows are reversed, like Joe Derrane's, with the lower key on the inside row. I've never tried that system, but it's got to be quite different. Still, about 1/3 of the keys should be easy to play in, 1/3 manageable, and 1/3 absurdly hard.
For the theoretically minded, the keys on the circle of fifths close to the inside row's key are the easy ones. The ones close to the outside row's key are the ok ones. The rest are hard.
As Gary says, BC does a little better with flat keys than a C#D, and like any instrument, you can improvise melodies with it, play jazzy stuff. What it isn't good at is playing chords. Not a lot of double stops available except in certain keys, and limited bass buttons. If you want to riff along with someone by adding some chords to the mix, a piano accordion (or one of those multirow chromatic button boxes) would be the way to go.
But this accompany things with your accordion is definitely not something to try in a session, at least not the tunes. A song that a friend is singing, maybe, but riffing accordions just don't belong with the tunes.
Billy McComisky (B/C) is reported looked confused when asked about having to play tunes in Eb or Bb as is sometimes done now. "I just do it," he said. So I guess that answers whether the B/C (or doubtless the C#/D or any other two row box) in the hands of an expert can do a good job. But, if you plan to accompany singers and venture off into other musical styles I would suspect you'd be more happy with either a piano accordion or one of the "continental" truly chromatic buttom boxes. Both of those would free you from the tyranny of bellows direction and would provide extended basses and chords. Both have practitioners in ITM, though those instruments are not nearly as accepted and the B/C and C#/D.
if you want to play other genres, accompany, and improvise, forget bisonoric boxes of any kind and go for a small chromatic button accordion (CBA), unisonoric like a piano accordion, but with buttons, not piano keys.....you need a minimum of 30 notes to play irish or any other world folk music decently, but you can get compact models at 30 to 34 or 37 notes (that's NOTES, not buttons, the note-vs-button count is different because rows of the same notes repeat)....yeah, it lacks the push-pull pulse of the bisonorics, but you gain much, much, much more.....
If you want to accompany with chords in most keys, why not learn Duet or English concertina?
Just because no one plays them in seshes, it doesn't mean they aren't the perfect accompaniment instrument (just that no one has bothered learning them, and they are easier than B/C)
Alistair Anderson, Jim Younger, Simon Thoumire, Dick Miles, Damien Barber , Guernsey Pete have all played English Concertina in sessions.
John Nixon plays Jazz on English Concertina.
Those box players in Beoga seem to mix a lot of different styles into their recordings. I talked to them after one of their gigs last year, both were playing Vander Aa B/C boxes.
improvising on a b/c accordion?
improvising on a b/c accordion?
Hi. Thinking of getting myself an accordion. I'm into Irish music, and I like the fact that tradition Irish accordion is usually b/c (effectively making it fully chromatic, so I'm told). But I don't just want to play tunes, I also want to accompany people, improvise, maybe experiment with other genres of music a little.
Is the b/c box ok for that sort of thing? Or would I be better off getting a piano-accordion?
# Posted on February 9th 2011 by Deaf Frets
Re: improvising on a b/c accordion?
"Is the b/c box ok for that sort of thing? Or would I be better off getting a piano-accordion? "
CC# is chromatic too. Any of the three would be suitable.
# Posted on February 9th 2011 by Joseph Tailyour
Re: improvising on a b/c accordion?
Not in most sessions.
# Posted on February 9th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: improvising on a b/c accordion?
"Fully chromatic" is a bit misleading. All of the notes are there, but all except two are only available in one bellows direction, so if you want to play right-hand chords, you're limited. Also, in some keys, the scale is completely non-intuitive, making it very difficult to learn.
[I'll refer below only to major keys. The remarks apply to the corresponding modes with the same sharps/flats.]
B/C is well-suited to F, C, G and D (though to play in F and C you use what would usually be considered C#/D technique). C#/D is well-suited to G, D, A and E (though to play in A and E you use what would usually be considered B/C technique).
Particularly on slower tunes, into which category song accompaniment would usually fall, A, E, B and F# aren't bad on the B/C and B, F#, C# and Ab aren't bad on the C#/D.
The other keys are well beyond what my brain can handle.
Presumably on C/C#, the good keys would be F#, C#, Ab and Eb; the ok keys would be Bb, F, C and G; and the crazy keys would be D, E, A and E.
There's also D/D#, where the good keys would be Ab, Bb, Eb and F; the ok keys would be C, D, G, and A; and the bad keys would be C#, E, F# and B.
There are also boxes where the rows are reversed, like Joe Derrane's, with the lower key on the inside row. I've never tried that system, but it's got to be quite different. Still, about 1/3 of the keys should be easy to play in, 1/3 manageable, and 1/3 absurdly hard.
For the theoretically minded, the keys on the circle of fifths close to the inside row's key are the easy ones. The ones close to the outside row's key are the ok ones. The rest are hard.
# Posted on February 9th 2011 by GaryAMartin
Re: improvising on a b/c accordion?
As Gary says, BC does a little better with flat keys than a C#D, and like any instrument, you can improvise melodies with it, play jazzy stuff. What it isn't good at is playing chords. Not a lot of double stops available except in certain keys, and limited bass buttons. If you want to riff along with someone by adding some chords to the mix, a piano accordion (or one of those multirow chromatic button boxes) would be the way to go.
But this accompany things with your accordion is definitely not something to try in a session, at least not the tunes. A song that a friend is singing, maybe, but riffing accordions just don't belong with the tunes.
# Posted on February 9th 2011 by AlBrown
Re: improvising on a b/c accordion?
Billy McComisky (B/C) is reported looked confused when asked about having to play tunes in Eb or Bb as is sometimes done now. "I just do it," he said. So I guess that answers whether the B/C (or doubtless the C#/D or any other two row box) in the hands of an expert can do a good job. But, if you plan to accompany singers and venture off into other musical styles I would suspect you'd be more happy with either a piano accordion or one of the "continental" truly chromatic buttom boxes. Both of those would free you from the tyranny of bellows direction and would provide extended basses and chords. Both have practitioners in ITM, though those instruments are not nearly as accepted and the B/C and C#/D.
# Posted on February 9th 2011 by cboody
Re: improvising on a b/c accordion?
if you want to play other genres, accompany, and improvise, forget bisonoric boxes of any kind and go for a small chromatic button accordion (CBA), unisonoric like a piano accordion, but with buttons, not piano keys.....you need a minimum of 30 notes to play irish or any other world folk music decently, but you can get compact models at 30 to 34 or 37 notes (that's NOTES, not buttons, the note-vs-button count is different because rows of the same notes repeat)....yeah, it lacks the push-pull pulse of the bisonorics, but you gain much, much, much more.....
# Posted on February 9th 2011 by ceemonster
Re: improvising on a b/c accordion?
If you want to accompany with chords in most keys, why not learn Duet or English concertina?
Just because no one plays them in seshes, it doesn't mean they aren't the perfect accompaniment instrument (just that no one has bothered learning them, and they are easier than B/C)
# Posted on February 9th 2011 by geoffwright
Re: improvising on a b/c accordion?
Alistair Anderson, Jim Younger, Simon Thoumire, Dick Miles, Damien Barber , Guernsey Pete have all played English Concertina in sessions.
John Nixon plays Jazz on English Concertina.
# Posted on February 9th 2011 by Joseph Tailyour
Re: improvising on a b/c accordion?
I've never met someone who played a BC who wasn't primarily or only interested in playing tunes. That is what it works best for.
# Posted on February 9th 2011 by nfldbox
Re: improvising on a b/c accordion?
My Teacher takes the position that the B/C has all of the notes you need to play all the keys. You have to know the fingerboard.
# Posted on February 9th 2011 by zippydw
Re: improvising on a b/c accordion?
Those box players in Beoga seem to mix a lot of different styles into their recordings. I talked to them after one of their gigs last year, both were playing Vander Aa B/C boxes.
# Posted on February 9th 2011 by pbassnote