I travel quite a bit, and love to drop in on sessions when I'm out of town. So, before I leave, I turn to TheSession to find out what's happening wherever I'm going.
Tomorrow, I'm headed for Calgary, Alberta. Five sessions are listed. One is active.
In Toronto, where, I live, twelve sessions are listed. At most, five are active.
Please don't make me tell you about London, England.
Somewhere in a thread from several years ago is the statement "It is far, far more useful for people to be able to find information on a defunct session than to find no information at all."
I'm going to go out on a limb and say, No it isn't. Or I'll ask, for which people, specifically? The Victory Cafe session in Toronto shut down years ago. At least one of the *pubs* in the Toronto listing no longer exists.
At very least, something to denote that the session is no longer active should appear on the returned search listings, rather than surprising you when you click on the link.
And then there are those cases where the only person who can even make the change to say that the session died is no longer an active participant here. So many of those sessions that are *not* marked as defunct, nor even have a comment to say so, no longer in fact exist.
Unfortunately, like the tunes section, there is so much dead wood that it's starting to get highly counter-productive.
@Michael Bolton: This seems to be the usual situation and percentage; same goes for Halifax NS: five sessions listed, two active. Consequence is not to trust these pages here too much but look for alternatives. And they are not hard to find: just type in the place and something like "Irish sessions", "live music pubs" etc you usually get up-to-date results. That´s the way I found, for example, "Nova Scotia Sessions" which is incomparably better than anything found here.
This is a great site and I like its simplicity. Sometimes I think a slight improvement would be for members to have the ability to delete comments, tunes, sessions etc. theirselves.
From past experience elsewhere, there is a huge difference between keeping a discussion board lively and maintaining an online database on a voluntary basis.
In theory, widening access should improve things, but in my experience, after a short while nobody bothers anyway. Far easier just to make it acceptable for people to ask for session info on the discussion board when they need to.
I plan to make quite a few updates to the site this year. I certainly want to make sure that defunct sessions don't show up in search results. I'm also considering a more wiki-like approach to sessions, events, recordings, etc: allowing anyone to edit the details; not just the person who submitted the original item.
Allowing people to make deletions would open the way for a lot of abuse - it happens on other forums. If you know a session is dead, or a tune is wrong, anyone can add a comment to warn others.
As for dead sessions, keeping them listed does serve a purpose - it gives you the contact for the person who listed the session, and as an active sessioneer, they are likely to be able to tell you where all the live sessions in the area are, whether that particular one is still running or not.
This is good to hear I wonder how will we establish which sessions are still running? I agree the defunct session issue is problematic, the session I submitted years ago is long gone and I would definitely like to see it removed, Is there any chance of that Jeremy?
This is a great site apart from this particular issue.The only other thing is that I would question is some of the sheet music versions of tunes.Most of alI I would like to thank Jeremy because as we know he is a busy guy who runs this site on a voluntary basis.
Peter, go to the listing of the session, select "edit the schedule" and untick any checked boxes. Once no days are selected, the session will no longer show up in search results.
Sounds good about being able to edit the tunes but I can just imagine people fighting over which version of the tune is the 'definitive' one and starting off 'wars' a la wikipedia . Would this be difficult to avoid??
>>Now, what do you think of the other idea: allowing anyone to edit session/event/recording/tune details?
I reckon it would work O.K. for sessions - I assume you mean only available for people who are registered members. That would be a small safeguard against abuse.
When it comes to tunes, I quite like reading back through the discussions about tunes - even where the original information was incorrect.
An example of an established music website with that sort of approach is www.violinist.com (it's been around since 1996). A few interesting features of its operation:
Discussions are archived after 100 posts, so no further posts can be added, but the archived discussions can still be read. (This cuts out nonsensically interminable discussions.)
A member can edit, or even delete, their own posts in any discussion that has not been archived.
Members may have their own blog on the website.
A new member is not allowed to post until they've been a member for 48 hours, and all members are required to use their real names. These twin requirements eliminate trolls at a stroke and encourage members to be even more responsible for the content of their posts. Members quickly apologize if they overstep the mark.
Posts and blogs may include jpg images (but not audio or video, for bandwidth reasons).
A new discussion usually doesn't appear on the website for a couple of hours or so, because new topics are always moderated by the webmaster.
As the name of this website suggests, there is a large proportion of classical players in the membership (at all levels, from raw beginners who are unsure even how to hold the instrument, through symphony players to international soloists and top luthiers), but there are many members who are not classical violinists, or play in more than one genre (as I do).
The website has a small amount of unobtrusive but relevant advertising by sponsors.
Imo, no matter what your violin-playing preferences are, violinist.com is unequalled for the quality of its advice on violins, strings, bows and playing technique, freely given by some of the world's best and most experienced players and luthiers.
I think as peter wsll says, allowing editing of tunes will result in chaos.
It would be nice to be able to edit comments for ten minutes or so after posting, to correct spelling mistakes/typos. But if people are allowed to edit/delete comments at any time, then when arguments break out, people go back and edit their comments after others have responded to them, and the thread becomes nonsensical.
Jeremy asked: Now, what do you think of the other idea: allowing anyone to edit session/event/recording/tune details?
I think this might be a good idea - sort of do this wiki style. I think there are enough people here who are passionate about the music, to want to strive towards having good, clear info about sessions, tunes, etc...
But I would like to see a possibility to "give thumbs up" or down on different comments in discussions, and be able to view the comments in the order of popularity, as an option. This would help to sort out the crazy long discussions, which sometimes go on total side tracks...
Good idea for session updates. When I've used that feature I never take it as gospel but instead try to contact the person who originally submitted the information, often finding that they do know what's happening in the present tense... That's also what I recommend to others. That said, the promised changes sound good, if not some of the recommendations that follow Jeremy's news. If we're going with fingers, why stop with the thumb? And if we go with the thumb, Roman emperor or modern hitchhiking?
Stunning sevice, Jeremy. Thank you so much for that, and for all your other efforts here.
(And, BTW, though OT... everyone who's into Web design should know about Jeremy's HTML5 book. I must have been among the first people to order a copy, but I sure wasn't the last.)
One alternative is to list your session on www.folkjam.org. Every few months or so I'll get a reminder to update or at least reconfirm the session. This site also has a google map overlay where you can find the sessions near your area. Just don't use it for an invasion as one South American country tried recently
Some time ago I put the Sunday session at The Antelope in the old Irish quarter of Sparkhill, Birmingham UK on the list.
The Atelope is now an Indian restaurant. Oh well, sign of the times I suppose.
I have removed it from the list of sessions.
It would help a great deal to be able to edit the sessions. I've got the situation where the Landlady of one pub has moved down the road taking all the sessions with her. We are now doing regular sessions in the original pub and I can't change the schedule so if anyone searches on day - they will miss us.
I haven't seen the bloke who set the original entry up for year so I'm stuck !
Would it be practicable to require the original session poster to confirm/update periodically in order to retain control?
OTOH, I have seen sessions listed by persons who had no business doing so, sometimes having not even visited the session, and getting the facts quite wrong.
"...allowing anyone to edit session/event/recording/tune details?"
Why not? Would it be possible to see history of who edited what? Course there's a risk someone might declare a session
By the way, if visiting a town, you can always contact the venue in advance to ask if the session is still active. You have an addess, and can surely find a phone number from that, True, they might not know, but it would be a start.
At best you have the name of the venue. It's not always the case that a session listing includes a discernible address. Also, calling the pub, if they pick up ...
The address is very important, after that a contact person via email address or thesession membership.
"In this brilliant and entertaining user’s guide, Jeremy Keith cuts to the chase, with crisp, clear, practical examples, and his patented twinkle and charm."
Hey Jeremy, I like the Wiki-style of editing for certain things like that, although, it might be nice to be able to browse back through revisions, too.
Defunct Sessions
Defunct Sessions
I travel quite a bit, and love to drop in on sessions when I'm out of town. So, before I leave, I turn to TheSession to find out what's happening wherever I'm going.
Tomorrow, I'm headed for Calgary, Alberta. Five sessions are listed. One is active.
In Toronto, where, I live, twelve sessions are listed. At most, five are active.
Please don't make me tell you about London, England.
Somewhere in a thread from several years ago is the statement "It is far, far more useful for people to be able to find information on a defunct session than to find no information at all."
I'm going to go out on a limb and say, No it isn't. Or I'll ask, for which people, specifically? The Victory Cafe session in Toronto shut down years ago. At least one of the *pubs* in the Toronto listing no longer exists.
At very least, something to denote that the session is no longer active should appear on the returned search listings, rather than surprising you when you click on the link.
Thank you,
---Michael B.
# Posted on February 6th 2011 by MichaelBolton
Re: Defunct Sessions
And then there are those cases where the only person who can even make the change to say that the session died is no longer an active participant here. So many of those sessions that are *not* marked as defunct, nor even have a comment to say so, no longer in fact exist.
Unfortunately, like the tunes section, there is so much dead wood that it's starting to get highly counter-productive.
# Posted on February 6th 2011 by Alex Wilding
Re: Defunct Sessions
@Michael Bolton: This seems to be the usual situation and percentage; same goes for Halifax NS: five sessions listed, two active. Consequence is not to trust these pages here too much but look for alternatives. And they are not hard to find: just type in the place and something like "Irish sessions", "live music pubs" etc you usually get up-to-date results. That´s the way I found, for example, "Nova Scotia Sessions" which is incomparably better than anything found here.
# Posted on February 6th 2011 by alexweger
Re: Defunct Sessions
This is a great site and I like its simplicity. Sometimes I think a slight improvement would be for members to have the ability to delete comments, tunes, sessions etc. theirselves.
# Posted on February 6th 2011 by horatio spens the blademan
Re: Defunct Sessions
From past experience elsewhere, there is a huge difference between keeping a discussion board lively and maintaining an online database on a voluntary basis.
In theory, widening access should improve things, but in my experience, after a short while nobody bothers anyway. Far easier just to make it acceptable for people to ask for session info on the discussion board when they need to.
# Posted on February 6th 2011 by ian stock
Re: Defunct Sessions
I'll second that. All those in favour say 'Aye'.
# Posted on February 6th 2011 by gam
Re: Defunct Sessions
Aye -- Save space and Jeremy less hassle -
jim,,,
# Posted on February 6th 2011 by FIDDLE4
Re: Defunct Sessions
I plan to make quite a few updates to the site this year. I certainly want to make sure that defunct sessions don't show up in search results. I'm also considering a more wiki-like approach to sessions, events, recordings, etc: allowing anyone to edit the details; not just the person who submitted the original item.
# Posted on February 6th 2011 by Jeremy
Re: Defunct Sessions
Allowing people to make deletions would open the way for a lot of abuse - it happens on other forums. If you know a session is dead, or a tune is wrong, anyone can add a comment to warn others.
As for dead sessions, keeping them listed does serve a purpose - it gives you the contact for the person who listed the session, and as an active sessioneer, they are likely to be able to tell you where all the live sessions in the area are, whether that particular one is still running or not.
# Posted on February 6th 2011 by skreech
Re: Defunct Sessions
I've just pushed out a small code update so that defunct sessions will no longer appear in search results.
I hope this will make the experience of searching for sessions less frustrating.
Now, what do you think of the other idea: allowing anyone to edit session/event/recording/tune details?
# Posted on February 6th 2011 by Jeremy
Re: Defunct Sessions
This is good to hear I wonder how will we establish which sessions are still running? I agree the defunct session issue is problematic, the session I submitted years ago is long gone and I would definitely like to see it removed, Is there any chance of that Jeremy?
This is a great site apart from this particular issue.The only other thing is that I would question is some of the sheet music versions of tunes.Most of alI I would like to thank Jeremy because as we know he is a busy guy who runs this site on a voluntary basis.
# Posted on February 6th 2011 by peter wsll
Re: Defunct Sessions
Peter, go to the listing of the session, select "edit the schedule" and untick any checked boxes. Once no days are selected, the session will no longer show up in search results.
# Posted on February 6th 2011 by Jeremy
Re: Defunct Sessions
Sounds good about being able to edit the tunes but I can just imagine people fighting over which version of the tune is the 'definitive' one and starting off 'wars' a la wikipedia . Would this be difficult to avoid??
# Posted on February 6th 2011 by peter wsll
Re: Defunct Sessions
Cheerrs Jeremy !
# Posted on February 6th 2011 by peter wsll
Re: Defunct Sessions
>>Now, what do you think of the other idea: allowing anyone to edit session/event/recording/tune details?
I reckon it would work O.K. for sessions - I assume you mean only available for people who are registered members. That would be a small safeguard against abuse.
When it comes to tunes, I quite like reading back through the discussions about tunes - even where the original information was incorrect.
Ian
# Posted on February 6th 2011 by ian stock
Re: Defunct Sessions
An example of an established music website with that sort of approach is www.violinist.com (it's been around since 1996). A few interesting features of its operation:
Discussions are archived after 100 posts, so no further posts can be added, but the archived discussions can still be read. (This cuts out nonsensically interminable discussions.)
A member can edit, or even delete, their own posts in any discussion that has not been archived.
Members may have their own blog on the website.
A new member is not allowed to post until they've been a member for 48 hours, and all members are required to use their real names. These twin requirements eliminate trolls at a stroke and encourage members to be even more responsible for the content of their posts. Members quickly apologize if they overstep the mark.
Posts and blogs may include jpg images (but not audio or video, for bandwidth reasons).
A new discussion usually doesn't appear on the website for a couple of hours or so, because new topics are always moderated by the webmaster.
As the name of this website suggests, there is a large proportion of classical players in the membership (at all levels, from raw beginners who are unsure even how to hold the instrument, through symphony players to international soloists and top luthiers), but there are many members who are not classical violinists, or play in more than one genre (as I do).
The website has a small amount of unobtrusive but relevant advertising by sponsors.
Imo, no matter what your violin-playing preferences are, violinist.com is unequalled for the quality of its advice on violins, strings, bows and playing technique, freely given by some of the world's best and most experienced players and luthiers.
# Posted on February 6th 2011 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Defunct Sessions
Good man Jeremy.
# Posted on February 6th 2011 by gam
Re: Defunct Sessions
I think as peter wsll says, allowing editing of tunes will result in chaos.
It would be nice to be able to edit comments for ten minutes or so after posting, to correct spelling mistakes/typos. But if people are allowed to edit/delete comments at any time, then when arguments break out, people go back and edit their comments after others have responded to them, and the thread becomes nonsensical.
# Posted on February 6th 2011 by skreech
Re: Defunct Sessions
Jeremy asked: Now, what do you think of the other idea: allowing anyone to edit session/event/recording/tune details?
I think this might be a good idea - sort of do this wiki style. I think there are enough people here who are passionate about the music, to want to strive towards having good, clear info about sessions, tunes, etc...
But I would like to see a possibility to "give thumbs up" or down on different comments in discussions, and be able to view the comments in the order of popularity, as an option. This would help to sort out the crazy long discussions, which sometimes go on total side tracks...
Cheers.
# Posted on February 6th 2011 by matti
Five fingers
Good idea for session updates. When I've used that feature I never take it as gospel but instead try to contact the person who originally submitted the information, often finding that they do know what's happening in the present tense... That's also what I recommend to others. That said, the promised changes sound good, if not some of the recommendations that follow Jeremy's news. If we're going with fingers, why stop with the thumb? And if we go with the thumb, Roman emperor or modern hitchhiking?
# Posted on February 6th 2011 by ceolachan
~ and ditto what skreech said...
# Posted on February 6th 2011 by ceolachan
Re: Defunct Sessions
Stunning sevice, Jeremy. Thank you so much for that, and for all your other efforts here.
(And, BTW, though OT... everyone who's into Web design should know about Jeremy's HTML5 book. I must have been among the first people to order a copy, but I sure wasn't the last.)
---Michael B.
# Posted on February 6th 2011 by MichaelBolton
Re: Defunct Sessions
One alternative is to list your session on www.folkjam.org. Every few months or so I'll get a reminder to update or at least reconfirm the session. This site also has a google map overlay where you can find the sessions near your area. Just don't use it for an invasion as one South American country tried recently
# Posted on February 6th 2011 by jrathbun
Re: Defunct Sessions
Some time ago I put the Sunday session at The Antelope in the old Irish quarter of Sparkhill, Birmingham UK on the list.
The Atelope is now an Indian restaurant. Oh well, sign of the times I suppose.
I have removed it from the list of sessions.
# Posted on February 6th 2011 by celticrichie
Making it acceptable to ask for session info?
Aye!
# Posted on February 6th 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: Defunct Sessions
Our session is very much alive but I need to revise the "Comments" section. How?
# Posted on February 6th 2011 by jtrout
Re: Defunct Sessions
I'd like to second skreech's suggestion about a short-term correction period.
# Posted on February 6th 2011 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: Defunct Sessions
Some of my comments have been successfully edited in a short-term period.
# Posted on February 6th 2011 by Ben Steen
Jeremy & HTML5
Jeremy's written an HTML5 book? Great! Now to see if I can find out more and chase up a copy...
# Posted on February 6th 2011 by ceolachan
Re: Defunct Sessions
http://books.alistapart.com/products/html5-for-web-designers
# Posted on February 6th 2011 by Ben Steen
I'm throwing you a kiss Ben... :-X
# Posted on February 6th 2011 by ceolachan
Even if that link never opens up...
# Posted on February 6th 2011 by ceolachan
Re: Defunct Sessions
Thanks for the kiss anyway. Try it from Jeremy's journal;
http://adactio.com/journal/1663/
# Posted on February 6th 2011 by Ben Steen
"HTML5 for Web Designers" by Jeremy Keith
It just opened up, finally. I love the reviews. I'll have to chase up a copy. Here's a little more, for those with an interest ~
http://37signals.com/svn/posts/2338-html-5-for-web-designers-by-jeremy-keith
http://www.mayfielddigital.co.uk/blog/reviews/book-review-html5-for-web-designers-by-jeremy-keith/
Congratulations Jeremy, obviously from what I've read so far a job well done, with heart and humour...
# Posted on February 6th 2011 by ceolachan
Re: Defunct Sessions
It would help a great deal to be able to edit the sessions. I've got the situation where the Landlady of one pub has moved down the road taking all the sessions with her. We are now doing regular sessions in the original pub and I can't change the schedule so if anyone searches on day - they will miss us.
I haven't seen the bloke who set the original entry up for year so I'm stuck !
J
# Posted on February 6th 2011 by jfother
Re: Defunct Sessions
Would it be practicable to require the original session poster to confirm/update periodically in order to retain control?
OTOH, I have seen sessions listed by persons who had no business doing so, sometimes having not even visited the session, and getting the facts quite wrong.
# Posted on February 7th 2011 by oldstrings
Re: Defunct Sessions
"...allowing anyone to edit session/event/recording/tune details?"
Why not? Would it be possible to see history of who edited what? Course there's a risk someone might declare a session
By the way, if visiting a town, you can always contact the venue in advance to ask if the session is still active. You have an addess, and can surely find a phone number from that, True, they might not know, but it would be a start.
# Posted on February 7th 2011 by harmonic miner
Re: Defunct Sessions
At best you have the name of the venue. It's not always the case that a session listing includes a discernible address. Also, calling the pub, if they pick up ...
The address is very important, after that a contact person via email address or thesession membership.
# Posted on February 7th 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: Defunct Sessions
"In this brilliant and entertaining user’s guide, Jeremy Keith cuts to the chase, with crisp, clear, practical examples, and his patented twinkle and charm."
- 'patented twinkle and charm' - I liked that
# Posted on February 7th 2011 by domhnall.
Re: Defunct Sessions
Hey Jeremy, I like the Wiki-style of editing for certain things like that, although, it might be nice to be able to browse back through revisions, too.
# Posted on February 7th 2011 by Reverend
Re: Defunct Sessions
Keep that 'twinkle and charm' stuff on the down low, the poor guy will never hear the end of it.
Thanks Jeremy!
# Posted on February 7th 2011 by SWFL Fiddler