If you want accuracy, you should get one of the Peterson clip-on strobe tuners, which are accurate to .1 cent (same as their more expensive models) . Most of the other clip ons are only accurate to .5 cent.
They're expensive (≈ $80 here in the States), so it may not be a good value if you're having trouble hanging on to your tuners.
I know I shouldn't say, but Planxty Rogan Josh just has to be the username of the year!
We have a bloke here (Gawd knows what's happened to him) who claimed he tuned to 0.1 of a cent accuracy and wouldn't have it any other way. If I manage to track him down I'll pass on your number.
Tuners- clip on, strap on or non-doctor have no place in Trad didley music- unless you are a tone deaf baritone ukulele player, a BlooZ obsessed six string devil botherer, a gay* fiddle player, or any other fretted strummy thing holder...
* this is 'gay' is suposed in the sense of 'naff' like wot the young people say by the way.
yhaalhouse, if you mean naff then type naff. Otherwise you're just being rude to people who get enough rudeness already (as opposed to naff fiddle players--they're fair game).
i suspected this.. i would tune my D and A strings according to my clip on tuner then play them both at the same time but they would sound out of tune,
i second the suggestion that you should trust your ears
I love the clip on - I'm a convert. In a noisy pub you
don't have make a spectacle of yourself blasting out double
stops in between sets. Some people seem to spend five
minutes doing it. The clip on lets you tune the thing in a few
seconds any time you like without annoying people. But
certainly with a flute you have to use your ears all the time -
"tuning up" as a separate process is almost meaningless.
Guitarist has tuner 'A' and mandolinist has tuner 'B' and by God they are going to stick to them despite sitting one on each side of a piper (me) who is a quartertone flat. This happened on a regular basis and defies common sense.
Nothing wrong with clip on tuners in sessions as long as you don't take them too seriously. They allow you to check quickly quiety and without hearing yourself or disturbing others that you are where you want to be.
On mine I want the D and A to be more or less bang on according to the display. But I know that I prefer the G to be notably flat according to the display on my tuner and the E sharp (though to a lesser degree than the G-flatness).
Sure not everyone likes to use them and that;s their choice. Being vocal about others using them though strikes me as simple snobbery.
That said, there are some people who just can't tune by ear. Don't some tuners come with the option of setting where A is? As long as you set that to the A on the non-tuneable instrument I don't see the harm.
What Hup says about the flute applies to whistles too, when you can adjust your pitch by breath pressure - when it's one of your basic techniques - you can't not use your ears.
I use one sometimes just at the start of the session, but find it better to tune to the overall session over the time played , Unless it get tooo far out. They may be good at first for learners but as, Greg the Piano Tuner says < I trust my ears. >
I watched these two guy's on TV the other night, they tuned up before nearly every piece perfect, and no gadgets it sight.
I've had a few clip on tuners, but they all break or lie (usually both). Like others, I trust my ears. However,they can be useful at times. If I have a cold (or like now, getting over the flu), my ears go off and I can't quite trust them, so a tuner (borrowed from the husband, who depends on it) is better til I get my ears straightened out again.
Obviously you have to adjust to fixed reeds, they don't have a choice. Until recently we rarely had any fixed reeds in a fairly big session. We have a more or less regular PA now, but he usually doesn't arrive until midway through the session. I've played with this guy often enough to know that his A pretty much matches the A on my clip on, so no real tuning issues with him when he arrives, pah deh problem.
Occasionally we'll have a pop in form a very wet tuned PA: anyone really want to try to tune to that?
I don't tune the pipes much at a session unless they go horribly out because it takes about five times as long to tune the bloody thing as it does anything else. You have to open the reed cap, take out the reed, wiggle it around, put the whole chanter back together, test the thing, rinse, repeat until you're happy with it. It takes more than the six seconds most sessions allow for any individual to tune up. Usually they're around concert pitch, maybe a wee bit sharp depending on their mood, but close enough. It's a freakin' nightmare playing in a session which decides to be a few cents flat of concert pitch and won't adjust a cent for you.
Sorry, Chris. That rant has nothing to do with the Oran Mor. It's just a sore spot from being in other sessions where people have hassled me about my tuning but won't give me any time or space to fix it.
It has switchable vibration and mic sensitivity, adjustable pitch, extended pick-up range that works for whistles down to basses, clickless metronome, easy to read back lit display, wide opening clip with non-marring foot, uses an easy to obtain battery, and rotates all the way around for right and left handers, and it's not expensive - only $15USD
I support trusting your ears, but at a loud, noisy gig a tuner is really helpful.
What do you do when you have a piper on one side, a melodian the other and two concertinas opposite? I know the obvious answer might be to leave but they all happen to be good musicians.
Folks complaining about the way tuners tune their fiddles or six string things might want to consider that the tuners are (or at least are supposed to be) tuning equal temperament if they are chromatic. There are guitar tuners and fiddle tuners that are optimized for intervals better for your instrument.
That said there are all sorts of interesting issues with tuners. Many claim .5 cent accuracy but some use a digitized display that can only display something like an 8 cent inaccuracy because of the size of the digitized needle. Some get inaccurate when the battery gets low but give the user no indication that the battery is low. Some are simply not in tune with a known scale, and I suspect that may vary with the quality control at the factory since others from the same brand may be OK.
I play hammered dulcimer and really rely on tuners for that. Even with the tuners I have to tweak little things. Once I get to a jam or session I'm like the pipers: stuck with what I've got. If the group is low or high the only solution is to play whistle (since the concertina is also fixed at 440).
Now stay on topic and talk about tuners and don't slag me about hammered dulcimer ;)
cboody - what sort of hammers do you use? I used to a roofing hammer, but I'm interested in trying ball-peens for a lighter "crunching" sound.
[/dulcimer slagging]
Tuners are fine for getting you to within spitting distance, but you have to give them a little help. I play the box, so generally I give people a blast of the A and let them sort it out, but when I was bringing the banjo it was always a nightmare. Friction pegs, old strings... sounded good, but in the winter it would go out of tune every time someone opened the door and a blast of cold air hit the skin.
@cboody Am I missing something ?. How does an electronic tuner set a useful guitar temperament other than equal temp? The frets are basically equal temp. The guitar has its own special complications to that and we tweak the tuning to spread the error around, but I don’t see how the tuner could do any useful tempering.
I'll second (or is that third) the Snark; bought one for my banjo last October, and was an instant hit with fiddle & whistle players alike at our session.
Be sure to get the red SN-2, all-instrument version (it also includes a visual metronome, but that's a different argument...)
I bought a Snark last December. It looks like a Pixar character. I expect it to shake its head if I'm in tune. One of the little black buttons which operated the metronome fell off. But, otherwise, I like the display. It's a little delayed, but it does seem very sensitive.s
"@cboody Am I missing something ?. How does an electronic tuner set a useful guitar temperament other than equal temp? The frets are basically equal temp. The guitar has its own special complications to that and we tweak the tuning to spread the error around, but I don’t see how the tuner could do any useful tempering."
I think you answered your own question. You tweak the tuning to spread the error around. Those tweaks can be standardized and a tuner made to reflect the changes. I don't play guitar so I don't know if the so called "guitar tuners" that only tune 6 notes actually do make those adjustments. I do know that there are violin tuners out there that tune to perfect fifths rather than the slightly off fifths of equal temperament.
@ Jon K: "cboody - what sort of hammers do you use? I used to a roofing hammer, but I'm interested in trying ball-peens for a lighter "crunching" sound. " Generally I carry a sledge to sessions to deal with that sort of comment...
A perfect-fifth option for fiddles makes sense, since the actual temperament of the playing comes from the fingers. But spreading the inherent guitar string error around is not the same as changing the temperament of the instrument. Guitar frets are equally tempered, no matter how much we tweak the tuning of open strings. We can make little adjustments that favor a few notes in one key at a time, moving them closer to just intonation, but it’s always robbing from other notes. Oh, well. I’m sure there are other wonders I’ve yet to see.
I can quicky clip it onto my Low Whistle or uilleann chanter. Since it can read vibrations and doesn't depend on being able to hear, it works in very noisy environments.
A couple people have said "I just use my ears" but I've been in situations where I can't hear myself, and the Snark lets me know what's going on.
For example, the first two weeks in December I was on tour with a group that consisted of fiddle, grand piano, drum kit, electric guitar, synth, and accordion. (No, we didn't shlep around a grand piano or drum kit, these were provided at each concert venue per our contract. Ditto for sound equipment.)
I was mic'd so everyone else could hear me but I couldn't hear myself much of the time, even with earphones and my own Axiom box.
One one song I had to play various long drone notes on my MK Low D the entire time, and it had to be in tune! The synth was playing various things and without my Snark clipped to my MK I might have wandered off pitch.
And with such a group I don't have the luxury of saying "hey, my pipes are sort of close, and you all have to tune to me!"
Doesn't work that way.
Tuners or apps that depend on hearing the note you're playing don't work in these situations.
One of the beauties of the Peterson clip on is that it has settings for uilleann and GHB chanters.makes the tricky business of setting your reed pretty simple.( reletivly!!) a good tuner set to the correct intonation system is handy for fihe tuning the chanter as well. The peterson app does not appear to have the temperament settings available on their hardware, accurate but only suitable for guitar/ET .
I bought an Intelli IMT-500...
but it's lost or misplaced... and it cost $30!!!!
It wasn't terribly accurate, but it fit nicely in a fiddle case compartment, and the display was quite readable, at least when the battery was fresh.
I also discovered it gave me more accurate readings when I clipped it on the neck near the nut.
I have three other tuners though, two guitar tuners, and one chromatic (two were given to me and one I bought at a yard sale for 50 cents), and since the fiddle has the same notes as guitar, but in a different order, even the guitar tuners work. I also bought a clip on mic device (Signalflex) that plugs into them so I can tune in noisy environments.
I clip it to the fiddle bridge. Since those tuners are a little bigger I seem to be able to keep better track of them.
One thing that helped me keep the clip on Intelli as long as I did was clipping it up somewhere out in the open where I could see it... if it's set somewhere and gets knocked into a dark corner, you won't likely see it since it's black.
I guess that's actually a plus for the Snark that it's such a gaudy color!!!!
Clip on Tuners
Clip on Tuners
I bought a 'decent' clip on tuner, and lost it.
replaced it, and this was borrowed and not returned, so
replaced it again.
eventually found the 1st and was given the 2nd back. now I have 3 clip on tuners of the same model.
stick them at the same time on the same guitar headstock and 30-50% of the time they give slightly different readings.
make of that what you will.
# Posted on February 2nd 2011 by one nation under chicken
Re: Clip on Tuners
That doesn't surprise me, my first one broke so I had to get a second. The second was a different brand and the two give different As.
# Posted on February 2nd 2011 by Why Bother?
Re: Clip on Tuners
If you want accuracy, you should get one of the Peterson clip-on strobe tuners, which are accurate to .1 cent (same as their more expensive models) . Most of the other clip ons are only accurate to .5 cent.
They're expensive (≈ $80 here in the States), so it may not be a good value if you're having trouble hanging on to your tuners.
I love mine.
# Posted on February 2nd 2011 by jeff_willner
Re: Clip on Tuners
I know I shouldn't say, but Planxty Rogan Josh just has to be the username of the year!
We have a bloke here (Gawd knows what's happened to him) who claimed he tuned to 0.1 of a cent accuracy and wouldn't have it any other way. If I manage to track him down I'll pass on your number.
# Posted on February 2nd 2011 by Steve Shaw
Re: Clip on Tuners
Tuners- clip on, strap on or non-doctor have no place in Trad didley music- unless you are a tone deaf baritone ukulele player, a BlooZ obsessed six string devil botherer, a gay* fiddle player, or any other fretted strummy thing holder...
* this is 'gay' is suposed in the sense of 'naff' like wot the young people say by the way.
# Posted on February 2nd 2011 by yhaalhouse
Re: Clip on Tuners
I trust my ears.
# Posted on February 2nd 2011 by Greg the Piano Tuner
Re: Clip on Tuners
yhaalhouse, if you mean naff then type naff. Otherwise you're just being rude to people who get enough rudeness already (as opposed to naff fiddle players--they're fair game).
# Posted on February 2nd 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: Clip on Tuners
i suspected this.. i would tune my D and A strings according to my clip on tuner then play them both at the same time but they would sound out of tune,
i second the suggestion that you should trust your ears
# Posted on February 2nd 2011 by I ♥ Dow
Re: Clip on Tuners
I love the clip on - I'm a convert. In a noisy pub you
don't have make a spectacle of yourself blasting out double
stops in between sets. Some people seem to spend five
minutes doing it. The clip on lets you tune the thing in a few
seconds any time you like without annoying people. But
certainly with a flute you have to use your ears all the time -
"tuning up" as a separate process is almost meaningless.
# Posted on February 2nd 2011 by Hup
Re: Clip on Tuners
Guitarist has tuner 'A' and mandolinist has tuner 'B' and by God they are going to stick to them despite sitting one on each side of a piper (me) who is a quartertone flat. This happened on a regular basis and defies common sense.
# Posted on February 2nd 2011 by gam
Re: Clip on Tuners
Nothing wrong with clip on tuners in sessions as long as you don't take them too seriously. They allow you to check quickly quiety and without hearing yourself or disturbing others that you are where you want to be.
On mine I want the D and A to be more or less bang on according to the display. But I know that I prefer the G to be notably flat according to the display on my tuner and the E sharp (though to a lesser degree than the G-flatness).
Sure not everyone likes to use them and that;s their choice. Being vocal about others using them though strikes me as simple snobbery.
- Chris
# Posted on February 2nd 2011 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: Clip on Tuners
The above dial displays are to put me more or less in concert pitch, not to some quirky local version of A which would of course be different.
- chris
# Posted on February 2nd 2011 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: Clip on Tuners
The quirky local version of A is the one coming out of my chanter.
# Posted on February 2nd 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Clip on Tuners
SS and gam make a very good point. Those of us who can
adjust need to accommodate pipes, concertinas, etc. regardless
of what the tuner says
# Posted on February 2nd 2011 by Hup
Re: Clip on Tuners
Aye. No kidding.
# Posted on February 2nd 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Clip on Tuners
That said, there are some people who just can't tune by ear. Don't some tuners come with the option of setting where A is? As long as you set that to the A on the non-tuneable instrument I don't see the harm.
What Hup says about the flute applies to whistles too, when you can adjust your pitch by breath pressure - when it's one of your basic techniques - you can't not use your ears.
# Posted on February 2nd 2011 by Red Menace
Re: Clip on Tuners
I tried one seven or eight years ago, and took it back after a few days. I like to tune up after everyone else does.
# Posted on February 2nd 2011 by gravelwalks
Re: Clip on Tuners
I use one sometimes just at the start of the session, but find it better to tune to the overall session over the time played , Unless it get tooo far out. They may be good at first for learners but as, Greg the Piano Tuner says < I trust my ears. >
I watched these two guy's on TV the other night, they tuned up before nearly every piece perfect, and no gadgets it sight.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_b8T1-SWkM
jim,,,
# Posted on February 2nd 2011 by FIDDLE4
Re: Clip on Tuners
I've had a few clip on tuners, but they all break or lie (usually both). Like others, I trust my ears. However,they can be useful at times. If I have a cold (or like now, getting over the flu), my ears go off and I can't quite trust them, so a tuner (borrowed from the husband, who depends on it) is better til I get my ears straightened out again.
# Posted on February 2nd 2011 by fiddletreegypsy
Re: Clip on Tuners
Obviously you have to adjust to fixed reeds, they don't have a choice. Until recently we rarely had any fixed reeds in a fairly big session. We have a more or less regular PA now, but he usually doesn't arrive until midway through the session. I've played with this guy often enough to know that his A pretty much matches the A on my clip on, so no real tuning issues with him when he arrives, pah deh problem.
Occasionally we'll have a pop in form a very wet tuned PA: anyone really want to try to tune to that?
- Chris
# Posted on February 2nd 2011 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: Clip on Tuners
Sorry, for some reason I typed "fixed reeds" when I meant "free reeds". Pipes are ten a penny at our session
# Posted on February 2nd 2011 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: Clip on Tuners
You can adjust to me as well.
I don't tune the pipes much at a session unless they go horribly out because it takes about five times as long to tune the bloody thing as it does anything else. You have to open the reed cap, take out the reed, wiggle it around, put the whole chanter back together, test the thing, rinse, repeat until you're happy with it. It takes more than the six seconds most sessions allow for any individual to tune up. Usually they're around concert pitch, maybe a wee bit sharp depending on their mood, but close enough. It's a freakin' nightmare playing in a session which decides to be a few cents flat of concert pitch and won't adjust a cent for you.
# Posted on February 2nd 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Clip on Tuners
Sorry, Chris. That rant has nothing to do with the Oran Mor. It's just a sore spot from being in other sessions where people have hassled me about my tuning but won't give me any time or space to fix it.
# Posted on February 2nd 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Clip on Tuners
I've had 3 or 4 different clip on tuners, but recently found this one - and it's, by far, the best one I've used.
http://elderly.com/accessories/items/SNARK-AIT.htm
It has switchable vibration and mic sensitivity, adjustable pitch, extended pick-up range that works for whistles down to basses, clickless metronome, easy to read back lit display, wide opening clip with non-marring foot, uses an easy to obtain battery, and rotates all the way around for right and left handers, and it's not expensive - only $15USD
I support trusting your ears, but at a loud, noisy gig a tuner is really helpful.
# Posted on February 2nd 2011 by Toppish
Re: Clip on Tuners
"I tried one seven or eight years ago, and took it back after a few days."
If you tuned up as recently as that you should still be OK!
# Posted on February 2nd 2011 by Steve Shaw
Re: Clip on Tuners
Hey I've got the Snark! it's the best tuner I've had. Couldn't be without a tuner in a noisy pub, but I do support ears too.
# Posted on February 2nd 2011 by RichardB
Re: Clip on Tuners
As long as it's not a boojum, I guess it'll be okay.
# Posted on February 2nd 2011 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Clip on Tuners
What do you do when you have a piper on one side, a melodian the other and two concertinas opposite? I know the obvious answer might be to leave but they all happen to be good musicians.
# Posted on February 2nd 2011 by len
Re: Clip on Tuners
Folks complaining about the way tuners tune their fiddles or six string things might want to consider that the tuners are (or at least are supposed to be) tuning equal temperament if they are chromatic. There are guitar tuners and fiddle tuners that are optimized for intervals better for your instrument.
That said there are all sorts of interesting issues with tuners. Many claim .5 cent accuracy but some use a digitized display that can only display something like an 8 cent inaccuracy because of the size of the digitized needle. Some get inaccurate when the battery gets low but give the user no indication that the battery is low. Some are simply not in tune with a known scale, and I suspect that may vary with the quality control at the factory since others from the same brand may be OK.
I play hammered dulcimer and really rely on tuners for that. Even with the tuners I have to tweak little things. Once I get to a jam or session I'm like the pipers: stuck with what I've got. If the group is low or high the only solution is to play whistle (since the concertina is also fixed at 440).
Now stay on topic and talk about tuners and don't slag me about hammered dulcimer ;)
# Posted on February 2nd 2011 by cboody
Re: Clip on Tuners
cboody - what sort of hammers do you use? I used to a roofing hammer, but I'm interested in trying ball-peens for a lighter "crunching" sound.
[/dulcimer slagging]
Tuners are fine for getting you to within spitting distance, but you have to give them a little help. I play the box, so generally I give people a blast of the A and let them sort it out, but when I was bringing the banjo it was always a nightmare. Friction pegs, old strings... sounded good, but in the winter it would go out of tune every time someone opened the door and a blast of cold air hit the skin.
# Posted on February 2nd 2011 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Clip on Tuners
@cboody Am I missing something ?. How does an electronic tuner set a useful guitar temperament other than equal temp? The frets are basically equal temp. The guitar has its own special complications to that and we tweak the tuning to spread the error around, but I don’t see how the tuner could do any useful tempering.
# Posted on February 2nd 2011 by Bob himself
Re: Clip on Tuners
I'll second (or is that third) the Snark; bought one for my banjo last October, and was an instant hit with fiddle & whistle players alike at our session.
Be sure to get the red SN-2, all-instrument version (it also includes a visual metronome, but that's a different argument...)
# Posted on February 2nd 2011 by Rick Payman
Re: Clip on Tuners
Bob - you're right. Not least because every guitar has its own unique 'tweaks' in tuning to get the best overall tuning.
# Posted on February 2nd 2011 by ethical blend
Re: Clip on Tuners
I bought a Snark last December. It looks like a Pixar character. I expect it to shake its head if I'm in tune. One of the little black buttons which operated the metronome fell off. But, otherwise, I like the display. It's a little delayed, but it does seem very sensitive.s
# Posted on February 3rd 2011 by grumblingoldwoman
Re: Clip on Tuners
"@cboody Am I missing something ?. How does an electronic tuner set a useful guitar temperament other than equal temp? The frets are basically equal temp. The guitar has its own special complications to that and we tweak the tuning to spread the error around, but I don’t see how the tuner could do any useful tempering."
I think you answered your own question. You tweak the tuning to spread the error around. Those tweaks can be standardized and a tuner made to reflect the changes. I don't play guitar so I don't know if the so called "guitar tuners" that only tune 6 notes actually do make those adjustments. I do know that there are violin tuners out there that tune to perfect fifths rather than the slightly off fifths of equal temperament.
# Posted on February 3rd 2011 by cboody
Re: Clip on Tuners
@ Jon K: "cboody - what sort of hammers do you use? I used to a roofing hammer, but I'm interested in trying ball-peens for a lighter "crunching" sound. " Generally I carry a sledge to sessions to deal with that sort of comment...
# Posted on February 3rd 2011 by cboody
Re: Clip on Tuners
A perfect-fifth option for fiddles makes sense, since the actual temperament of the playing comes from the fingers. But spreading the inherent guitar string error around is not the same as changing the temperament of the instrument. Guitar frets are equally tempered, no matter how much we tweak the tuning of open strings. We can make little adjustments that favor a few notes in one key at a time, moving them closer to just intonation, but it’s always robbing from other notes. Oh, well. I’m sure there are other wonders I’ve yet to see.
# Posted on February 3rd 2011 by Bob himself
Re: Clip on Tuners
If you have an Iphone then you can get an app from peterson costs about £6 accurate to 1%
job done
# Posted on February 4th 2011 by bazouki dave
Re: Clip on Tuners
I have a Snark! I love it.
I can quicky clip it onto my Low Whistle or uilleann chanter. Since it can read vibrations and doesn't depend on being able to hear, it works in very noisy environments.
A couple people have said "I just use my ears" but I've been in situations where I can't hear myself, and the Snark lets me know what's going on.
For example, the first two weeks in December I was on tour with a group that consisted of fiddle, grand piano, drum kit, electric guitar, synth, and accordion. (No, we didn't shlep around a grand piano or drum kit, these were provided at each concert venue per our contract. Ditto for sound equipment.)
I was mic'd so everyone else could hear me but I couldn't hear myself much of the time, even with earphones and my own Axiom box.
One one song I had to play various long drone notes on my MK Low D the entire time, and it had to be in tune! The synth was playing various things and without my Snark clipped to my MK I might have wandered off pitch.
And with such a group I don't have the luxury of saying "hey, my pipes are sort of close, and you all have to tune to me!"
Doesn't work that way.
Tuners or apps that depend on hearing the note you're playing don't work in these situations.
# Posted on February 4th 2011 by Richard D Cook
Re: Clip on Tuners
One of the beauties of the Peterson clip on is that it has settings for uilleann and GHB chanters.makes the tricky business of setting your reed pretty simple.( reletivly!!) a good tuner set to the correct intonation system is handy for fihe tuning the chanter as well. The peterson app does not appear to have the temperament settings available on their hardware, accurate but only suitable for guitar/ET .
# Posted on February 5th 2011 by piobagusfidil
Re: Clip on Tuners
I bought an Intelli IMT-500...
but it's lost or misplaced... and it cost $30!!!!
It wasn't terribly accurate, but it fit nicely in a fiddle case compartment, and the display was quite readable, at least when the battery was fresh.
I also discovered it gave me more accurate readings when I clipped it on the neck near the nut.
I have three other tuners though, two guitar tuners, and one chromatic (two were given to me and one I bought at a yard sale for 50 cents), and since the fiddle has the same notes as guitar, but in a different order, even the guitar tuners work. I also bought a clip on mic device (Signalflex) that plugs into them so I can tune in noisy environments.
I clip it to the fiddle bridge. Since those tuners are a little bigger I seem to be able to keep better track of them.
One thing that helped me keep the clip on Intelli as long as I did was clipping it up somewhere out in the open where I could see it... if it's set somewhere and gets knocked into a dark corner, you won't likely see it since it's black.
I guess that's actually a plus for the Snark that it's such a gaudy color!!!!
# Posted on February 18th 2011 by fiddlepogo