what is it with bluegrass music and its practicioners? I LOVE the music.. I wouldn't really want to play it though because I don't really have the time or patience.. I will admit that.. But, alot of my experience with it's players leave a bad taste in my mouth..I really equate it with American Protestant "I'm right- you are wrong" mentality... Generally they are ok people, but they just shut out other musics and deride it..
when they show up at an Irish session once or twice a year, they expect the red carpet to be rolled out ("Hee haw, that's right folks, the old timers are here for a spell and we are going to show you how Turkey In The Straw is really played!") they will just sit there and maybe saw on a fiddle for a few drones, and strum some chords,, but later on, when there is a lull and people are chatting and just soaking in the scene, someone will start busting into a breakdown or something and they are acting like the Red Sea is parting,, but instead of just everone joining in or thunderous applause, we all just go "wow. that's really neat".,.with glazed over eyes.. and that's it...
But, god help an Irish musician if they want to sort of explore other music, and just happen to go to one of THEIR jams.. "You can't play that banjo son, it's missing a string",,, and don't think about bringing a flute..
and Irish music is not totally innocent at all.. When I took banjo lessons, the teacher was telling me that I was wrong by hammering on or pulling off when I did triplets- :"That's a 5-sting thing- you don't do that in irish music, you pick everything".. or when I was learning mandolin "you don't play accompianment in Irish music on the mandolin,.. It just doesn't work"
Now, I know I am being kind of over the top here.. The thing is, I listenend to the first Touchstone album recently, and wondered why hasn't more people made a concerted effort to strike a balance between Irish and American old-time and bluegrass.. I think both camps have done the music disservice in some ways by just not being open and territorial..
That's just people, dude. Regardless of activity. Part of the human condition seems to be creating in-groups and out-groups and being kind of an arsehole towards anyone at the boundaries, as those boundaries are crucial to forging group identity.
As I said, I love bluegrass, but I wouldn't want to play it.. You won't see me going to a bluegrass jam trying to play Cooleys.. As, bluegrass pickers shouldn't be trying to crash an Irish session with Cripple Creek
Well if it only happens once or twice a year, as you say, is it really that big a deal? The people I've met that play it are very nice people. There are a couple of Bluegrass specific music stores in my area and although I don't play bluegrass I frequent the shops and the people are always out of the way helpful and kind.
is it accurate to say that Bluegrass music comes out of Scots/Irish music? as in, the roots of Bluegrass music are in the traditional songs and tunes brought over to America by the Scots and Irish (and English) immigrants?
Bluegrass was invented by Bill Monroe in the 40s. I think some of the older ballads are taken from the Irish or Scottish traditions but there seems to be only a few tunes that cross over. Tunes like Paddy on the Turnpike or Temperence reel sound so very different in bluegrass music I wonder which came first.
This discussion isn't warranted? Like.. discussions on bodhrans? What I a saying is the evolution of music is being help up by close mindedness.. I am not talking about closemindedness when it comes to dealing with someone who has no knowledge of Irish music coming to a session.. I am talking about equally competent musicians standing on common ground and moving ahead..
And.. the origins of bluegrass owes alot more to jazz than scots/irish music.. and this comes from a bluegrass picker himself.. Listen to a bluegrass jam-- it is just like a jazz jazz-- the theme-- a solo, the theme, a solo, etcetcetc..
I would say the music isn't evolving for those who are closeminded and it is for those who are more open minded. Irish Trad Music has been evolving since it was concieved.
Bluegrass invented by Bill Monroe in the 40's? No offense, but you must not know much about real appalacian bluegrass. That's like saying Elvis invented the blues in the 40's and 50's.
Maybe your prejudices are showing. Don't put people or things into groups then treat the group as a unit. As TheSilverSpear succinctly puts it, it's being kind of an arsehole.
Are you from New York or something? People around here (West Virginia) seem very welcoming. I even brought (and played) a bodhran at a BIG bluegrass session last summer and no one yelled at me!
Fiddlechick7 I'm pretty sure that the term 'bluegrass music' didn't exist before Monroe. His style and Earl Scruggs style defined the genre which was a new form of country music in the 40s. It's roots may be in old time Appalachian music but the instrumental style known as bluegrass was defined by them. I see/hear a big difference between Appalachian music and bluegrass music.
Bluegrass was invented by Bill Monroe in the 40s. Many people who don’t know a lot about Appalachian, Ozarks, Piedmont, old-timey, country, country blues and bluegrass conflate them all under the name “bluegrass” but that’s just inaccurate. Big Mon created a specific sound based on country, old time mountain music, jazz and country blues, and after a lot of experimentation, settled on fiddle, mandolin, 5-string banjo, guitar and bass as the instrumentation. He did this consciously, and it was pretty much unique in country music at the time. I say pretty much unique only because that instrumental line up was preceded on a few recordings by Gid Tanner and the Skillet Lickers or Mainer’s Mountaineers or some group like that. Monroe experimented briefly with accordion but felt it didn’t work for the sound he was looking for. He was also one of the first to insist that his musicians play in flat keys like Bb because that’s where his voice sounded best. His band was called the Blue Grass Boys after the nickname for his home state of Kentucky. Other bands started imitating his successful mix, referring to it by his band’s name: Blue Grass music.
Most Scottish fiddlers I know can make a fairly good stab at bluegrass and old time and there have been a number of musicians who have no problem flitting between or mixing genres.
Old-time and bluegrass musicians are generally welcomed into sessions here but I guess they're small in number and nobody feels threatened by them.
I did notice some slight tension in some US sessions I went to, where people took pains to explain to me it wasn't a bluegrass jam, or any kind of "jam".
I guess they have to be a bit more defensive of their sessions to avoid getting swamped
One of the differences, in my ear anyway, is that Appalachian music seems to be more 'modal' in nature and to have more of a 'drone' than bluegrass. Never cared much for bluegrass but was smitten by Appalachian music from the coal region the first time I heard it.
One musician who has played with Bill Monroe and also Irish musicians, and pretty much makes the music he likes (with beautiful results) is the banjo player Tony Ellis. Anybody heard him?
I was mesmerised by his group "The Musicians of Braeburn"
... and don't eeeeven get on the topic of bluegrass and/or/bs old time (or ol' timey) music. Folks either get real riled up if you think they're the same, or they can't tell the difference.
The big difference between Irish sessions and bluegrass and/or old time sessions is that Irish sessions play endless medleys of tunes with three repeats each, and OT/BG sessions play the same tune endlessly. (well, 10-12 times, but it seems like forever unless there are some expert players)
It is not predjudice for different musical traditions to have different styles, rhythms, ways of ornamenting and articulating, different instrumentation. That is just the nature of what makes them coherent and identifiable traditions. You are not being a bigot or a fascist when you expect someone playing at your event to hew to your tradition. Unless of course, everyone is willing to experiment, and in that event, whatever goes on between consenting adults is their own business...
Good point about Scruggs style being the defining sound for bluegrass - I think of frailing/Scruggs as sort of the divide between bluegrass and earlier styles. "Sissy pickin" melodic style doesn't count.
Bluegrass jams are competitive, showing how fast and fancy you can play, in a way the Irish sessions tend not to be. I think the sense of rhythm in Irish is more sophisticated and subtle. But the inventiveness and technical demands of bluegrass are much higher than Irish, in general.
'Melodic style' 5-string banjo is a method where a player plays up the neck and alternates with open strings to play a melody note-for-note. The overall effect is often one of delicate or even mechanical precision. Most other 5-string banjo styles like clawhammer or scruggs only approximate the melody. It was famously sneered at as "sissy pickin" by some big-name bluegrass player (ok maybe not so famously as I can't remember who that was...).
We get the same thing here in Scotland - the Irish come across to our festivals and play their jigs and reels too fast for even the fairies to dance, and with about as much emotion as Stephen Hawking singing.
But if you go over there and play a strathspey, they treat you like you're playing jazz.
Always interesting to see the nice clear factual information we get out here: Bill Monroe did/didn't "invent" bluegrass. General consensus is that he did. Elvis did/didn't invent rockabilly. General consensus is that he "borrowed" most of that from the black musicians along with most of his other early rock and roll style. But clearly folks out here have opinions.
As to Bluegrass folks not being welcoming: There are "Bluegrass Nazis" just as there are (I shudder to mention this here) "Irish trad Nazis." Both groups can be difficult if not impossible to deal with if you cross the boundaries of what they consider acceptable.
Fortunately the vast majority of the folks, particularly at jams and sessions are welcoming and accepting. Yes you shouldn't change their repertoire. Yes you should ask or wait to be invited if you play an instrument unusual to that repertoire (I'd never drag out my hammered dulcimer at either kind of jam without first finding out if it was "OK." Yes you should learn to play in their style (Think about St. Anne's Reel which I've heard in both kinds of sessions and also in Old-Timey sessions). That said though, a close knit group of folks may not take kindly to a "newby" from another tradition simply because it changes the dynamic. There's no real solution to that except to go away if you're the newby.
Finally, consider the "Transatlantic Sessions:" We can all get along and make great music...
fidkid, that was Sonny Osborne (I happened to be on the other end of a knock-down, drag-out with him in Banjo Newsletter way back when). Sonny had a bully pulpit in his monthly "essay" (I'm being polite) in Banjo Newsletter, and he used it one time to tear into Alan Munde's use of melodic picking, saying no one would ever want to listen to that, and that Scruggs style was the only legitimate way to play bluegrass on a banjo.
I wrote a response, and Hub Nitchie (the BN publisher) printed it. Long story short, Sonny finally admitted that he'd never heard Alan Munde play, live or recorded, but said he didn't have to hear it to know he wouldn't like it and neither should anybody else.
Heh. So I suspect Bela Fleck's career would've caught ol' Sonshine by surprise....
I got to meet and play with Mr. Munde in the late 1970s at the Main Point in Bryn Mawr, PA. He had read the whole debate. We both agreed that Sonny's lack of substance made it easy to let the whole thing slide. And we played some fiddle tunes, melodically, on our banjos.
BTW, "melodic style" doesn't have to go up the neck, and it certainly doesn't have to be mechanical (go listen to Munde's version of Sail Away Ladies). And it doesn't even necessarily forgo rolls and picking patterns a la Scruggs. I play Solider's Joy, Shady Grove, Little Liza Jane, Sandy Boys and other fiddle tunes with all the melody notes intact *and* mostly get those notes through bits of forward, backward, reverse, and alternating thumb rolls. So the tunes still have pulse and drive, *and* all of the melody.
"Bluegrass jams are competitive, showing how fast and fancy you can play, in a way the Irish sessions tend not to be. I think the sense of rhythm in Irish is more sophisticated and subtle. But the inventiveness and technical demands of bluegrass are much higher than Irish, in general." fidkid
I don't know about that, trad sessions can be just as competitive. It's only my opinion but I'd contend that where a bluegrass player improvises a break over a tune it tends to be the progression that remains solid and the melody becomes quite subjective. Sometimes the break isn't even faintly related to the melody of the actual tune and this is an accepted part of this style of music. Irish music on the other hand stays far closer to the original melody but can move about altering the progression as the player explores the tune.
So one lot are exploring the tune whilst the other lot are exploring the progression, in general melodic terms.
Keith, Munde, Trishka, Fleck, Weisberg and loads of other pickers who use melodic style are terrific musicians, no doubt. Sonny's statement is ridiculous, but I've heard less skilled players make it sound really mechanical in bluegrass jams. Pretty cool that you were at the epicenter of that with Sonny, Will.
The classic Scruggs is my favorite of that kind of music, and I agree with Gemini that Scrugg's style is what really gelled the "bluegrass" sound. So one could argue that the original incarnation of Bill Monroe's Blue Grass Boys (with Akeman) didn't really play bluegrass.
BTW now that I think about it, you CAN usually play all the melody notes of simpler tunes with drop-thumb frailing. You still get that strummy twang that I associate with earlier styles though.
Solidmahog, I guess some sessions are competitive, but not anywhere near the level of how a jam session functions. But you’re spot on describing the difference in improvisation between Irish and bluegrass.
What I find disheartening is when you find yourself at a session where it’s all “fiddle music” – a bunch of styles and traditions all lumped together without the players even being aware that one tune is more Scottish, another Canadian, or bluegrass, or old-time or Irish. Much less Clare style or Donegal. Hmm. Am I slicing it a bit too thin?
Hmm, I’m thinking about my last couple sentences. Maybe it’s a good thing, or at least and ok thing, that some people see it all as ‘just music’ without all the backward looking baggage of ‘traditions’. Ironically, it’s probably how people looked at their dance music in past generations.
"One can only imagine what might have happened if Dylan had asked Earl Scruggs to play with his band in Newport during the summer of 1965."
Ben,
Earl Scruggs (without Lester Flatt) played the 1963 Newport Festival and eventually (with Lester) Carnegie Hall. They did pretty well for themselves mostly due to Earl's wife Louise who was the marketing brains behind the outfit and Martha White Mills when the Williams brothers took a chance and used Flatt and Scruggs to market their products.
Blugrass music has a very specific and well documented history starting with the 1945 band of Bill Monroe and the Blue Grass Boys. The style of music is different from the old time string bands for a variety of reasons, one of them being that it is stage music and not dance music.
Bluegrass took off during the folk music of the 60s, prior to that it was more or less in the South, country radio stations and some outliers like the Lilly Brothers in Boston. Flatt and Scruggs had a TV show sponsored by Martha White from the mid 50s on which spread the word and they became known throughout the college circuit in the 60s. Bluegrass festivals became popular about the same time (Carleton Haney, for one) and Bluegrass took on a similarity to ITM in that a lot of non-professionals played it for pleasure as a grass roots movement - no pun intended.
Ironically, Bill Monroe was not well known initially. After Ralph Rinzler (of the Greenbriar Boys) became Bill Monroe's manager, WSM became better known on the college circuit and in festivals. That is a whole other issue, however.
Monroe's influences were blues musicians (especially Arnold Schultz), string bands, his Uncle Pen, Sacred Harp gospel, and popular music. He is enshrined in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame as a pioneer. ("Carl Perkins claimed that the first words Presley spoke to him were, “Do you like Bill Monroe?”)
While there are elements of string bands in his music, it is his music and it has since evolved even more than ITM.
BG fiddlers tend to run a gamut of styles from the long bow of Kenny Baker to Paul Warren's shuffling style and so forth. Banjo players have a number of skills these days including classical Scruggs, melodic, single string/Reno style, and other. Mandolinists have been a little more orthodox (meaning like Bill Monroe) but that is not always true either. There are orthodox and radical branches of the music and constant controversy about what instruments to use. So if you happen to get into a BG jam inhabited by people so hard core that even Monroe's band members would be rejected, no wonder they didn't want you to play the whistle. (http://www.spbgma.com/ look them up.)
Bluegrass is a living evolving music not unlike modern ITM. It is not derived very much from Irish music but has Scottish roots among others. It is a very American music that incorporates a lot of other styles. It is mostly off beat, solos, micro-tunal singing, and more recently a lot of modern country music thrown in.
Monroe did invent bluegrass-- the sound and the lineup. However, many of the songs (and tunes) he and his band played were what we would now call "old time" or "Appalachian." His band just did them bluegras style. And w/o the Scruggs style of banjoo --perfected before Monroe-- no bluegrass, obviously.
When Monroe played Newport (early '60s, methinks) the promoters referred to the music as "blue grass" in reference to Kentucky and Monroe's band. Monroe himself is said to have commented with "well most folks just call it hillbilly mountain music but I like the sound of blue-grass."
As for the "bluegrass isnularity" thing-- I have found BG musicians no diff from ITM musicians. Yes, you could theoretically play the bass tuba or the electric guitar at an ITM sess...but it would not fit in. And, yes, you could play the whistle, or the bodhran, in bluegrass, but the first wouldn't fit, and the second is totally unnecesary. It is necessary to draw musical boundaries (at times), otherwise we get "Celtic jams" instead of ITM, and "bad country" instead fo bluegrass.
(Bring on the arguments)
Accordion/concertina, however...you could totally fit that into bluegrass, provided you didn't oom-pa-oom-pa the crap out of it...
I’ve always felt that Earl Scruggs deserved at least 30% credit for the development of bluegrass music. And his playing on the Beverly Hillbillies theme song probably did more to boost bluegrass than any other single thing.
I have heard, not played but heard, flute played in a bluegrass session. The player is accepted on the basis of his playing ~ not the choice of instrument.
A session, imho, is whatever those having the session want it to be.
BTW - the allusion to Scruggs playing at Newport ... I was playing off the fact that Dylan's band went electric. No electric banjo, though. This was years before Sam Bush plugged in.
Perhaps I should have written, "One can only imagine what might have happened if Dylan had asked Pete Seeger to play with his band in Newport during the summer of 1965" Dylan ~ Newport 1965; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=atUiJKsP3Jg
"Monroe did invent bluegrass-- the sound and the lineup. However, many of the songs (and tunes) he and his band played were what we would now call "old time" or "Appalachian." His band just did them bluegras style. And w/o the Scruggs style of banjoo --perfected before Monroe-- no bluegrass, obviously."
A lot of Monroe's gospel stuff is older, but most of his songs were either written by him or from the fifties by writers such as Jake Landers. A large number of his tunes were written by him or his band members. Still, you are correct in saying that he enjoyed playing the older tunes he learned from his (non-Appalachian) family.
Bluegrass is primarily a style of songs, not tunes. Just look at any ten random BG albums and you will see that singing predominates. Jams, on the other hand, often have more tunes than songs because tunes are easier to play than songs are to sing in the distinctive style BG is noted for. Another difference between ITM and BG.
banjoloon,
I think that if you listen carefully to modern Irish banjo players you will start to hear some of the "forbidden" techniques being used, especially cross picking. Bluegrass tunes, for example "Jerusalem Ridge", seem to be sneaking into Irish sessions, too.
On the other hand, the first time I ever heard "Ships are Sailing" was from Vasser Clemens at a festival in the 1970s - I suspect he got it from some Texas fiddlers who got it from Irish fiddlers. Good music is good music.
I grew up with a well-known bluegrass (and old time, but IMO he always sounds more bluegrass than OT) musician as a father, and my version of a teenage rebellion was learning to play Irish music!
Bill Monroe is known as the 'Father of Bluegrass'. However, what you could call early bluegrass was around before that. If you want to know more about the history/learn tunes/hear good examples of this, I suggest you check out Wayne Erbsen's (my dad) 'Rural Roots of Bluegrass' songbook and cd. Bluegrass evolved from old time music. Old time evolved from the various influences of European and African musical styles that got mashed together over in the Appalachian mountains. Thus, there are tunes that are Irish tunes, old time tunes, and bluegrass tunes. All played quite differently (usually), and only sometimes with the same name.
It's funny, when I lived in Ireland, fellow session musicians would usually goad me into playing American tunes, whether I wanted to or not. Never more than one per night, but it happened often enough. Always felt strange to play OT tunes at an Irish session, and avoided it when I could.
I generally adhere to the rule of 'don't bring an instrument to a session that obviously doesn't belong to that style of music.' A flute or a bodhran at a BG or OT session is a no. Please, no. Electric instruments at...well, any of those are a no. A dobro woudn't fit in at an Irish session, and neither would a mountain dulcimer. Fiddles fit in just about everywhere, so I'm lucky with that
Couple of friends of mine served fiddle terms in Monroe’s band. One got his fill of bluegrass and only plays old-time now. Apparently, being on the road with Monroe could be a grind. The other still plays very soulful bluegrass, but I knew him for several years before I learned, from a third party, that he had been a Blue Grass Boy. Not sure what that means. Probably just that he’s modest.
I've been very fortunate to enjoy a well-played dobro in an Irish traditional session. Yes, the player is an exception musician, and he played tunes that he knew, and it blended in nicely. Maybe I wouldn't want it every week, but it still sounded way better than a hammered dulcimer....
As a youth I found bluegrass through an old hippy pal who'd record me and my pals albums.
We were into punk and euro psychedelic rock, of which our hippy pal had a huge collection of the latter. He also had a huge collection of american hippy music and the dead featured big. Some how or other we got a hold of "Old and In the Way" from him and that was the beginning of the end for electronic music and the start of my interest in acoustic music. I was 18 or 19, eventually bluegrass gave way to trad when I ran out of bluegrassers to play with......
In 96 the ex and I went to the US and we spent a couple of days in Nashville, primarily so I could find a copy of Appalachian Swing by the Kentucky Colonel's and catch some bluegrass. It is to my eternal shame that I missed the opportunity of seeing Bill Munro at the Ryman auditorium, our schedule was tight but even so, with more speed and a little less haste things could have been different.
you know what's even better than bluegrass? Kevin Burke's take on Bill Monroe's tune Evening Prayer Blues. I don't even know what to call it when an Irish player picks up a bluegrass tune, then passes it on to an old time band (Foghorn Stringband in this case). What is that? Reverse engineering? Super-hyper-post-modernism? I call it masterful - you just have to hear it for yourselves: http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/burkescott (I forget which track, but the tune is Evening Prayer Blues)
"Akeman [StringBean] played as banjoist for Monroe's band, playing on such recordings as "Goodbye Old Pal". Akeman also spent some of his time during this period teamed with Willie Egbert Westbrook as String Beans and Cousin Wilbur, a comedy duo who often worked on the same bill with Monroe's outfit. Akeman left Monroe in 1945 and was replaced by Earl Scruggs, a banjoist with a radically different technique.
String Bean played Frailing, Frailing is completely different from Scruggs style.
Earls 3 finger banjo defined the new sound which was called Bluegrass.
whatever music is played be it Irish or Bluegrass or whatever there will be a proportion of players who are r soles and also a lot of very pleasant people too."
It's funny, some people are wound so tight that if they were to swallow a lump of coal, by the time it got to the other end, they will have produced a diamond.
Naming a genre doesn't mean that it didn't exist before it's naming. Bluegrass music was called Mountain or Hillbilly Music prior to Bill Munroe and before that, it was called Traditional English, Scottish, Irish or Scots/Irish music. Big deal, I'm a musician, not a politician I could give a crap what you call a really good piece, as long as it stirs my soul. The only people it really matters to, is people who's minds are so small that everything has to fit in neat little boxes and to take them out of the box would set those people's internal universes crashing somewhere and they might find out they're really oh, I don't know... a woman trapped in a man's body or something.
As for the Knuckleheads who walk into a Irish Session and demand that a tune be played Mountain or Hillbilly or Bluegrass style, they should go to Italy and demand everybody eat Chef Boyardee Spaghettios and see where that gets them!
"would set those people's internal universes crashing somewhere and they might find out they're really oh, I don't know... a woman trapped in a man's body or something."
*giggles* i'm too immature for this website *giggle
Bluegrass vs. Irish
Bluegrass vs. Irish
what is it with bluegrass music and its practicioners? I LOVE the music.. I wouldn't really want to play it though because I don't really have the time or patience.. I will admit that.. But, alot of my experience with it's players leave a bad taste in my mouth..I really equate it with American Protestant "I'm right- you are wrong" mentality... Generally they are ok people, but they just shut out other musics and deride it..
when they show up at an Irish session once or twice a year, they expect the red carpet to be rolled out ("Hee haw, that's right folks, the old timers are here for a spell and we are going to show you how Turkey In The Straw is really played!") they will just sit there and maybe saw on a fiddle for a few drones, and strum some chords,, but later on, when there is a lull and people are chatting and just soaking in the scene, someone will start busting into a breakdown or something and they are acting like the Red Sea is parting,, but instead of just everone joining in or thunderous applause, we all just go "wow. that's really neat".,.with glazed over eyes.. and that's it...
But, god help an Irish musician if they want to sort of explore other music, and just happen to go to one of THEIR jams.. "You can't play that banjo son, it's missing a string",,, and don't think about bringing a flute..
and Irish music is not totally innocent at all.. When I took banjo lessons, the teacher was telling me that I was wrong by hammering on or pulling off when I did triplets- :"That's a 5-sting thing- you don't do that in irish music, you pick everything".. or when I was learning mandolin "you don't play accompianment in Irish music on the mandolin,.. It just doesn't work"
Now, I know I am being kind of over the top here.. The thing is, I listenend to the first Touchstone album recently, and wondered why hasn't more people made a concerted effort to strike a balance between Irish and American old-time and bluegrass.. I think both camps have done the music disservice in some ways by just not being open and territorial..
# Posted on January 23rd 2011 by banjoloon
Re: Bluegrass vs. Irish
That's just people, dude. Regardless of activity. Part of the human condition seems to be creating in-groups and out-groups and being kind of an arsehole towards anyone at the boundaries, as those boundaries are crucial to forging group identity.
# Posted on January 23rd 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Bluegrass vs. Irish
As I said, I love bluegrass, but I wouldn't want to play it.. You won't see me going to a bluegrass jam trying to play Cooleys.. As, bluegrass pickers shouldn't be trying to crash an Irish session with Cripple Creek
# Posted on January 23rd 2011 by banjoloon
Re: Bluegrass vs. Irish
Well if it only happens once or twice a year, as you say, is it really that big a deal? The people I've met that play it are very nice people. There are a couple of Bluegrass specific music stores in my area and although I don't play bluegrass I frequent the shops and the people are always out of the way helpful and kind.
# Posted on January 23rd 2011 by shanty
Re: Bluegrass vs. Irish
is it accurate to say that Bluegrass music comes out of Scots/Irish music? as in, the roots of Bluegrass music are in the traditional songs and tunes brought over to America by the Scots and Irish (and English) immigrants?
# Posted on January 23rd 2011 by Reeds Munson
Re: Bluegrass vs. Irish
Something that happens twice a year is not enough to justify this discussion.
# Posted on January 23rd 2011 by premier
Re: Bluegrass vs. Irish
Bluegrass was invented by Bill Monroe in the 40s. I think some of the older ballads are taken from the Irish or Scottish traditions but there seems to be only a few tunes that cross over. Tunes like Paddy on the Turnpike or Temperence reel sound so very different in bluegrass music I wonder which came first.
# Posted on January 23rd 2011 by shanty
Re: Bluegrass vs. Irish
This discussion isn't warranted? Like.. discussions on bodhrans? What I a saying is the evolution of music is being help up by close mindedness.. I am not talking about closemindedness when it comes to dealing with someone who has no knowledge of Irish music coming to a session.. I am talking about equally competent musicians standing on common ground and moving ahead..
And.. the origins of bluegrass owes alot more to jazz than scots/irish music.. and this comes from a bluegrass picker himself.. Listen to a bluegrass jam-- it is just like a jazz jazz-- the theme-- a solo, the theme, a solo, etcetcetc..
# Posted on January 23rd 2011 by banjoloon
Re: Bluegrass vs. Irish
I would say the music isn't evolving for those who are closeminded and it is for those who are more open minded. Irish Trad Music has been evolving since it was concieved.
# Posted on January 23rd 2011 by premier
Re: Bluegrass vs. Irish
Bluegrass invented by Bill Monroe in the 40's? No offense, but you must not know much about real appalacian bluegrass. That's like saying Elvis invented the blues in the 40's and 50's.
# Posted on January 23rd 2011 by Fiddlechick7
Re: Bluegrass vs. Irish
Maybe your prejudices are showing. Don't put people or things into groups then treat the group as a unit. As TheSilverSpear succinctly puts it, it's being kind of an arsehole.
# Posted on January 23rd 2011 by gam
Re: Bluegrass vs. Irish
Really? These guys seem to be able to make it work. Maybe you have to be truly talented.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ByYSkRGrMqw
# Posted on January 23rd 2011 by cjprince
Re: Bluegrass vs. Irish
The Chieftains have always brushed aside boundries, nice video. Apart from that it also has no relevence as its a staged show.
# Posted on January 23rd 2011 by premier
Re: Bluegrass vs. Irish
Another one - brilliant
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ByYSkRGrMqw
# Posted on January 23rd 2011 by cjprince
Re: Bluegrass vs. Irish
So....it would only be relevant if it's done in the context of an informal session?
# Posted on January 23rd 2011 by cjprince
Re: Bluegrass vs. Irish
Are you from New York or something? People around here (West Virginia) seem very welcoming. I even brought (and played) a bodhran at a BIG bluegrass session last summer and no one yelled at me!
# Posted on January 23rd 2011 by plunk111
Re: Bluegrass vs. Irish
Well cjprince.... yeah thats what I think
# Posted on January 23rd 2011 by premier
Re: Bluegrass vs. Irish
Fiddlechick7 I'm pretty sure that the term 'bluegrass music' didn't exist before Monroe. His style and Earl Scruggs style defined the genre which was a new form of country music in the 40s. It's roots may be in old time Appalachian music but the instrumental style known as bluegrass was defined by them. I see/hear a big difference between Appalachian music and bluegrass music.
# Posted on January 23rd 2011 by shanty
Re: Bluegrass vs. Irish
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LI92oDdXazg
(just because!)
# Posted on January 23rd 2011 by shanty
Re: Bluegrass vs. Irish
Bluegrass was invented by Bill Monroe in the 40s. Many people who don’t know a lot about Appalachian, Ozarks, Piedmont, old-timey, country, country blues and bluegrass conflate them all under the name “bluegrass” but that’s just inaccurate. Big Mon created a specific sound based on country, old time mountain music, jazz and country blues, and after a lot of experimentation, settled on fiddle, mandolin, 5-string banjo, guitar and bass as the instrumentation. He did this consciously, and it was pretty much unique in country music at the time. I say pretty much unique only because that instrumental line up was preceded on a few recordings by Gid Tanner and the Skillet Lickers or Mainer’s Mountaineers or some group like that. Monroe experimented briefly with accordion but felt it didn’t work for the sound he was looking for. He was also one of the first to insist that his musicians play in flat keys like Bb because that’s where his voice sounded best. His band was called the Blue Grass Boys after the nickname for his home state of Kentucky. Other bands started imitating his successful mix, referring to it by his band’s name: Blue Grass music.
# Posted on January 23rd 2011 by fidkid
Re: Bluegrass vs. Irish
Most Scottish fiddlers I know can make a fairly good stab at bluegrass and old time and there have been a number of musicians who have no problem flitting between or mixing genres.
Old-time and bluegrass musicians are generally welcomed into sessions here but I guess they're small in number and nobody feels threatened by them.
I did notice some slight tension in some US sessions I went to, where people took pains to explain to me it wasn't a bluegrass jam, or any kind of "jam".
I guess they have to be a bit more defensive of their sessions to avoid getting swamped
# Posted on January 23rd 2011 by Bren
Re: Bluegrass vs. Irish
One of the differences, in my ear anyway, is that Appalachian music seems to be more 'modal' in nature and to have more of a 'drone' than bluegrass. Never cared much for bluegrass but was smitten by Appalachian music from the coal region the first time I heard it.
# Posted on January 23rd 2011 by shanty
Re: Bluegrass vs. Irish
One musician who has played with Bill Monroe and also Irish musicians, and pretty much makes the music he likes (with beautiful results) is the banjo player Tony Ellis. Anybody heard him?
I was mesmerised by his group "The Musicians of Braeburn"
http://tonyellisbanjo.com/wordpress/?page_id=2
# Posted on January 23rd 2011 by Bren
Re: Bluegrass vs. Irish
As has been said, Bill Monroe did invent bluegrass and Elvis in fact esstentially created rockabilly.
# Posted on January 23rd 2011 by Steve L
Re: Bluegrass vs. Irish
... and don't eeeeven get on the topic of bluegrass and/or/bs old time (or ol' timey) music. Folks either get real riled up if you think they're the same, or they can't tell the difference.
The big difference between Irish sessions and bluegrass and/or old time sessions is that Irish sessions play endless medleys of tunes with three repeats each, and OT/BG sessions play the same tune endlessly. (well, 10-12 times, but it seems like forever unless there are some expert players)
# Posted on January 23rd 2011 by Tracie
Re: Bluegrass vs. Irish
It is not predjudice for different musical traditions to have different styles, rhythms, ways of ornamenting and articulating, different instrumentation. That is just the nature of what makes them coherent and identifiable traditions. You are not being a bigot or a fascist when you expect someone playing at your event to hew to your tradition. Unless of course, everyone is willing to experiment, and in that event, whatever goes on between consenting adults is their own business...
# Posted on January 23rd 2011 by AlBrown
Re: Bluegrass vs. Irish
Ditto what Al said.
When I go to a bluegrass jam, I play bluegrass. When I go to an Irish session, I play irish traditional music.
The two don't have to be blenderized in order to "evolve."
# Posted on January 23rd 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: Bluegrass vs. Irish
One can only imagine what might have happened if Dylan had asked Earl Scruggs to play with his band in Newport during the summer of 1965.
# Posted on January 23rd 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: Bluegrass vs. Irish
Good point about Scruggs style being the defining sound for bluegrass - I think of frailing/Scruggs as sort of the divide between bluegrass and earlier styles. "Sissy pickin" melodic style doesn't count.
Bluegrass jams are competitive, showing how fast and fancy you can play, in a way the Irish sessions tend not to be. I think the sense of rhythm in Irish is more sophisticated and subtle. But the inventiveness and technical demands of bluegrass are much higher than Irish, in general.
# Posted on January 23rd 2011 by fidkid
Re: Bluegrass vs. Irish
Not dance tunes so much, eh?
# Posted on January 23rd 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: Bluegrass vs. Irish
There's really no excuse for blue grass.
# Posted on January 23rd 2011 by David Levine
Re: Bluegrass vs. Irish
Ben, Now I can't get the musical image of Dylan accompanied by Scruggs-style banjo out of my head! lol!
# Posted on January 23rd 2011 by AlBrown
Re: Bluegrass vs. Irish
So, what is sissy pickin?
# Posted on January 24th 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: Bluegrass vs. Irish
Dylan recorded a version of "You Ain't Goin Nowhere" with Happy Traum on 5-string banjo
# Posted on January 24th 2011 by Bren
Re: Bluegrass vs. Irish
'Melodic style' 5-string banjo is a method where a player plays up the neck and alternates with open strings to play a melody note-for-note. The overall effect is often one of delicate or even mechanical precision. Most other 5-string banjo styles like clawhammer or scruggs only approximate the melody. It was famously sneered at as "sissy pickin" by some big-name bluegrass player (ok maybe not so famously as I can't remember who that was...).
# Posted on January 24th 2011 by fidkid
Re: Bluegrass vs. Irish
It's just people.
We get the same thing here in Scotland - the Irish come across to our festivals and play their jigs and reels too fast for even the fairies to dance, and with about as much emotion as Stephen Hawking singing.
But if you go over there and play a strathspey, they treat you like you're playing jazz.
# Posted on January 24th 2011 by skreech
Re: Bluegrass vs. Irish
Always interesting to see the nice clear factual information we get out here: Bill Monroe did/didn't "invent" bluegrass. General consensus is that he did. Elvis did/didn't invent rockabilly. General consensus is that he "borrowed" most of that from the black musicians along with most of his other early rock and roll style. But clearly folks out here have opinions.
As to Bluegrass folks not being welcoming: There are "Bluegrass Nazis" just as there are (I shudder to mention this here) "Irish trad Nazis." Both groups can be difficult if not impossible to deal with if you cross the boundaries of what they consider acceptable.
Fortunately the vast majority of the folks, particularly at jams and sessions are welcoming and accepting. Yes you shouldn't change their repertoire. Yes you should ask or wait to be invited if you play an instrument unusual to that repertoire (I'd never drag out my hammered dulcimer at either kind of jam without first finding out if it was "OK." Yes you should learn to play in their style (Think about St. Anne's Reel which I've heard in both kinds of sessions and also in Old-Timey sessions). That said though, a close knit group of folks may not take kindly to a "newby" from another tradition simply because it changes the dynamic. There's no real solution to that except to go away if you're the newby.
Finally, consider the "Transatlantic Sessions:" We can all get along and make great music...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Km_S9pGSGQ8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lwllcWC_FL4&NR=1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPtMFx6Ytto
# Posted on January 24th 2011 by cboody
Re: Bluegrass vs. Irish
Is there a website similar to thesession.org for
bluegrassers?
# Posted on January 24th 2011 by halfwaythere
Re: Bluegrass vs. Irish
fidkid, that was Sonny Osborne (I happened to be on the other end of a knock-down, drag-out with him in Banjo Newsletter way back when). Sonny had a bully pulpit in his monthly "essay" (I'm being polite) in Banjo Newsletter, and he used it one time to tear into Alan Munde's use of melodic picking, saying no one would ever want to listen to that, and that Scruggs style was the only legitimate way to play bluegrass on a banjo.
I wrote a response, and Hub Nitchie (the BN publisher) printed it. Long story short, Sonny finally admitted that he'd never heard Alan Munde play, live or recorded, but said he didn't have to hear it to know he wouldn't like it and neither should anybody else.
Heh. So I suspect Bela Fleck's career would've caught ol' Sonshine by surprise....
I got to meet and play with Mr. Munde in the late 1970s at the Main Point in Bryn Mawr, PA. He had read the whole debate. We both agreed that Sonny's lack of substance made it easy to let the whole thing slide. And we played some fiddle tunes, melodically, on our banjos.
BTW, "melodic style" doesn't have to go up the neck, and it certainly doesn't have to be mechanical (go listen to Munde's version of Sail Away Ladies). And it doesn't even necessarily forgo rolls and picking patterns a la Scruggs. I play Solider's Joy, Shady Grove, Little Liza Jane, Sandy Boys and other fiddle tunes with all the melody notes intact *and* mostly get those notes through bits of forward, backward, reverse, and alternating thumb rolls. So the tunes still have pulse and drive, *and* all of the melody.
# Posted on January 24th 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: Bluegrass vs. Irish
"Bluegrass jams are competitive, showing how fast and fancy you can play, in a way the Irish sessions tend not to be. I think the sense of rhythm in Irish is more sophisticated and subtle. But the inventiveness and technical demands of bluegrass are much higher than Irish, in general." fidkid
I don't know about that, trad sessions can be just as competitive. It's only my opinion but I'd contend that where a bluegrass player improvises a break over a tune it tends to be the progression that remains solid and the melody becomes quite subjective. Sometimes the break isn't even faintly related to the melody of the actual tune and this is an accepted part of this style of music. Irish music on the other hand stays far closer to the original melody but can move about altering the progression as the player explores the tune.
So one lot are exploring the tune whilst the other lot are exploring the progression, in general melodic terms.
# Posted on January 24th 2011 by Solidmahog
Re: Bluegrass vs. Irish
It's only music,
# Posted on January 24th 2011 by mcknowall
Re: Bluegrass vs. Irish
Keith, Munde, Trishka, Fleck, Weisberg and loads of other pickers who use melodic style are terrific musicians, no doubt. Sonny's statement is ridiculous, but I've heard less skilled players make it sound really mechanical in bluegrass jams. Pretty cool that you were at the epicenter of that with Sonny, Will.
The classic Scruggs is my favorite of that kind of music, and I agree with Gemini that Scrugg's style is what really gelled the "bluegrass" sound. So one could argue that the original incarnation of Bill Monroe's Blue Grass Boys (with Akeman) didn't really play bluegrass.
BTW now that I think about it, you CAN usually play all the melody notes of simpler tunes with drop-thumb frailing. You still get that strummy twang that I associate with earlier styles though.
Solidmahog, I guess some sessions are competitive, but not anywhere near the level of how a jam session functions. But you’re spot on describing the difference in improvisation between Irish and bluegrass.
What I find disheartening is when you find yourself at a session where it’s all “fiddle music” – a bunch of styles and traditions all lumped together without the players even being aware that one tune is more Scottish, another Canadian, or bluegrass, or old-time or Irish. Much less Clare style or Donegal. Hmm. Am I slicing it a bit too thin?
# Posted on January 24th 2011 by fidkid
Re: Bluegrass vs. Irish
Is there not a difference in bowing style between old timey fiddlers and bluegrass ?
# Posted on January 24th 2011 by Joseph Tailyour
Re: Bluegrass vs. Irish
Hmm, I’m thinking about my last couple sentences. Maybe it’s a good thing, or at least and ok thing, that some people see it all as ‘just music’ without all the backward looking baggage of ‘traditions’. Ironically, it’s probably how people looked at their dance music in past generations.
# Posted on January 24th 2011 by fidkid
Re: Bluegrass vs. Irish
"One can only imagine what might have happened if Dylan had asked Earl Scruggs to play with his band in Newport during the summer of 1965."
Ben,
Earl Scruggs (without Lester Flatt) played the 1963 Newport Festival and eventually (with Lester) Carnegie Hall. They did pretty well for themselves mostly due to Earl's wife Louise who was the marketing brains behind the outfit and Martha White Mills when the Williams brothers took a chance and used Flatt and Scruggs to market their products.
Blugrass music has a very specific and well documented history starting with the 1945 band of Bill Monroe and the Blue Grass Boys. The style of music is different from the old time string bands for a variety of reasons, one of them being that it is stage music and not dance music.
Bluegrass took off during the folk music of the 60s, prior to that it was more or less in the South, country radio stations and some outliers like the Lilly Brothers in Boston. Flatt and Scruggs had a TV show sponsored by Martha White from the mid 50s on which spread the word and they became known throughout the college circuit in the 60s. Bluegrass festivals became popular about the same time (Carleton Haney, for one) and Bluegrass took on a similarity to ITM in that a lot of non-professionals played it for pleasure as a grass roots movement - no pun intended.
Ironically, Bill Monroe was not well known initially. After Ralph Rinzler (of the Greenbriar Boys) became Bill Monroe's manager, WSM became better known on the college circuit and in festivals. That is a whole other issue, however.
Monroe's influences were blues musicians (especially Arnold Schultz), string bands, his Uncle Pen, Sacred Harp gospel, and popular music. He is enshrined in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame as a pioneer. ("Carl Perkins claimed that the first words Presley spoke to him were, “Do you like Bill Monroe?”)
While there are elements of string bands in his music, it is his music and it has since evolved even more than ITM.
BG fiddlers tend to run a gamut of styles from the long bow of Kenny Baker to Paul Warren's shuffling style and so forth. Banjo players have a number of skills these days including classical Scruggs, melodic, single string/Reno style, and other. Mandolinists have been a little more orthodox (meaning like Bill Monroe) but that is not always true either. There are orthodox and radical branches of the music and constant controversy about what instruments to use. So if you happen to get into a BG jam inhabited by people so hard core that even Monroe's band members would be rejected, no wonder they didn't want you to play the whistle. (http://www.spbgma.com/ look them up.)
Bluegrass is a living evolving music not unlike modern ITM. It is not derived very much from Irish music but has Scottish roots among others. It is a very American music that incorporates a lot of other styles. It is mostly off beat, solos, micro-tunal singing, and more recently a lot of modern country music thrown in.
Like ITM, it is a terrible way to make a living.
# Posted on January 24th 2011 by mikeyes
Re: Bluegrass vs. Irish
Skreech, "But if you go over there and play a strathspey, they treat you like you're playing jazz."
I often wonder if this might be true.
# Posted on January 24th 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: Bluegrass vs. Irish
Here's a link to a CD of Dylan playing with Scruggs:
http://www.thehoffmancollection.com/ads/Scruggs/Dylan.htm
# Posted on January 24th 2011 by fidkid
Re: Bluegrass vs. Irish
Re: Bluegrass vs. Irish
"Skreech, "But if you go over there and play a strathspey, they treat you like you're playing jazz."
I often wonder if this might be true"
No , False.
# Posted on January 24th 2011 by Oeidipus
You're a puppet?
# Posted on January 24th 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: Bluegrass vs. Irish
Wrong first letter, Ben. Think somewhere between 'L' and 'N'.
# Posted on January 24th 2011 by MacCruiskeen
The marionette ~ Andy Pandy?
# Posted on January 24th 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: Bluegrass vs. Irish
Nah, think of Kermit.
# Posted on January 24th 2011 by MacCruiskeen
Re: Bluegrass vs. Irish
Monroe did invent bluegrass-- the sound and the lineup. However, many of the songs (and tunes) he and his band played were what we would now call "old time" or "Appalachian." His band just did them bluegras style. And w/o the Scruggs style of banjoo --perfected before Monroe-- no bluegrass, obviously.
When Monroe played Newport (early '60s, methinks) the promoters referred to the music as "blue grass" in reference to Kentucky and Monroe's band. Monroe himself is said to have commented with "well most folks just call it hillbilly mountain music but I like the sound of blue-grass."
As for the "bluegrass isnularity" thing-- I have found BG musicians no diff from ITM musicians. Yes, you could theoretically play the bass tuba or the electric guitar at an ITM sess...but it would not fit in. And, yes, you could play the whistle, or the bodhran, in bluegrass, but the first wouldn't fit, and the second is totally unnecesary. It is necessary to draw musical boundaries (at times), otherwise we get "Celtic jams" instead of ITM, and "bad country" instead fo bluegrass.
(Bring on the arguments)
Accordion/concertina, however...you could totally fit that into bluegrass, provided you didn't oom-pa-oom-pa the crap out of it...
# Posted on January 24th 2011 by chris stolz
Re: Bluegrass vs. Irish
I’ve always felt that Earl Scruggs deserved at least 30% credit for the development of bluegrass music. And his playing on the Beverly Hillbillies theme song probably did more to boost bluegrass than any other single thing.
# Posted on January 24th 2011 by Bob himself
Re: Bluegrass vs. Irish
I have heard, not played but heard, flute played in a bluegrass session. The player is accepted on the basis of his playing ~ not the choice of instrument.
A session, imho, is whatever those having the session want it to be.
BTW - the allusion to Scruggs playing at Newport ... I was playing off the fact that Dylan's band went electric. No electric banjo, though. This was years before Sam Bush plugged in.
Perhaps I should have written, "One can only imagine what might have happened if Dylan had asked Pete Seeger to play with his band in Newport during the summer of 1965" Dylan ~ Newport 1965; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=atUiJKsP3Jg
# Posted on January 24th 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: Bluegrass vs. Irish
"Monroe did invent bluegrass-- the sound and the lineup. However, many of the songs (and tunes) he and his band played were what we would now call "old time" or "Appalachian." His band just did them bluegras style. And w/o the Scruggs style of banjoo --perfected before Monroe-- no bluegrass, obviously."
A lot of Monroe's gospel stuff is older, but most of his songs were either written by him or from the fifties by writers such as Jake Landers. A large number of his tunes were written by him or his band members. Still, you are correct in saying that he enjoyed playing the older tunes he learned from his (non-Appalachian) family.
Bluegrass is primarily a style of songs, not tunes. Just look at any ten random BG albums and you will see that singing predominates. Jams, on the other hand, often have more tunes than songs because tunes are easier to play than songs are to sing in the distinctive style BG is noted for. Another difference between ITM and BG.
banjoloon,
I think that if you listen carefully to modern Irish banjo players you will start to hear some of the "forbidden" techniques being used, especially cross picking. Bluegrass tunes, for example "Jerusalem Ridge", seem to be sneaking into Irish sessions, too.
On the other hand, the first time I ever heard "Ships are Sailing" was from Vasser Clemens at a festival in the 1970s - I suspect he got it from some Texas fiddlers who got it from Irish fiddlers. Good music is good music.
# Posted on January 24th 2011 by mikeyes
Re: Bluegrass vs. Irish
Hmm, how much should I say here?
I grew up with a well-known bluegrass (and old time, but IMO he always sounds more bluegrass than OT) musician as a father, and my version of a teenage rebellion was learning to play Irish music!
Bill Monroe is known as the 'Father of Bluegrass'. However, what you could call early bluegrass was around before that. If you want to know more about the history/learn tunes/hear good examples of this, I suggest you check out Wayne Erbsen's (my dad) 'Rural Roots of Bluegrass' songbook and cd. Bluegrass evolved from old time music. Old time evolved from the various influences of European and African musical styles that got mashed together over in the Appalachian mountains. Thus, there are tunes that are Irish tunes, old time tunes, and bluegrass tunes. All played quite differently (usually), and only sometimes with the same name.
It's funny, when I lived in Ireland, fellow session musicians would usually goad me into playing American tunes, whether I wanted to or not. Never more than one per night, but it happened often enough. Always felt strange to play OT tunes at an Irish session, and avoided it when I could.
I generally adhere to the rule of 'don't bring an instrument to a session that obviously doesn't belong to that style of music.' A flute or a bodhran at a BG or OT session is a no. Please, no. Electric instruments at...well, any of those are a no. A dobro woudn't fit in at an Irish session, and neither would a mountain dulcimer. Fiddles fit in just about everywhere, so I'm lucky with that
# Posted on January 24th 2011 by fiddletreegypsy
Re: Bluegrass vs. Irish
Fair play, fiddletreegypsy, I won't play flute at any session which doesn't accept my playing or my instrument.
# Posted on January 24th 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: Bluegrass vs. Irish
Wow, Wayne Erbsen is your dad? He put out a lot of great books.
# Posted on January 24th 2011 by fidkid
Re: Bluegrass vs. Irish
...and plays some might fine music too, of course. But I learned a lot from his instructional material.
# Posted on January 24th 2011 by fidkid
Re: Bluegrass vs. Irish
Mac - given the topic at hand, Grover might have been a better reference.
# Posted on January 24th 2011 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Bluegrass vs. Irish
Couple of friends of mine served fiddle terms in Monroe’s band. One got his fill of bluegrass and only plays old-time now. Apparently, being on the road with Monroe could be a grind. The other still plays very soulful bluegrass, but I knew him for several years before I learned, from a third party, that he had been a Blue Grass Boy. Not sure what that means. Probably just that he’s modest.
# Posted on January 24th 2011 by Bob himself
Re: Bluegrass vs. Irish
I've been very fortunate to enjoy a well-played dobro in an Irish traditional session. Yes, the player is an exception musician, and he played tunes that he knew, and it blended in nicely. Maybe I wouldn't want it every week, but it still sounded way better than a hammered dulcimer....
# Posted on January 25th 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: Bluegrass vs. Irish
"Maybe I wouldn't want it every week, but it still sounded way better than a hammered dulcimer...."
Now now Will, be kind to those of us who indulge.... ;)
# Posted on January 25th 2011 by cboody
Re: Bluegrass vs. Irish
As a youth I found bluegrass through an old hippy pal who'd record me and my pals albums.
We were into punk and euro psychedelic rock, of which our hippy pal had a huge collection of the latter. He also had a huge collection of american hippy music and the dead featured big. Some how or other we got a hold of "Old and In the Way" from him and that was the beginning of the end for electronic music and the start of my interest in acoustic music. I was 18 or 19, eventually bluegrass gave way to trad when I ran out of bluegrassers to play with......
In 96 the ex and I went to the US and we spent a couple of days in Nashville, primarily so I could find a copy of Appalachian Swing by the Kentucky Colonel's and catch some bluegrass. It is to my eternal shame that I missed the opportunity of seeing Bill Munro at the Ryman auditorium, our schedule was tight but even so, with more speed and a little less haste things could have been different.
# Posted on January 25th 2011 by Solidmahog
Re: Bluegrass vs. Irish
you know what's even better than bluegrass? Kevin Burke's take on Bill Monroe's tune Evening Prayer Blues. I don't even know what to call it when an Irish player picks up a bluegrass tune, then passes it on to an old time band (Foghorn Stringband in this case). What is that? Reverse engineering? Super-hyper-post-modernism? I call it masterful - you just have to hear it for yourselves:
http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/burkescott (I forget which track, but the tune is Evening Prayer Blues)
# Posted on January 25th 2011 by airport
Re: Bluegrass vs. Irish
"Akeman [StringBean] played as banjoist for Monroe's band, playing on such recordings as "Goodbye Old Pal". Akeman also spent some of his time during this period teamed with Willie Egbert Westbrook as String Beans and Cousin Wilbur, a comedy duo who often worked on the same bill with Monroe's outfit. Akeman left Monroe in 1945 and was replaced by Earl Scruggs, a banjoist with a radically different technique.
String Bean played Frailing, Frailing is completely different from Scruggs style.
Earls 3 finger banjo defined the new sound which was called Bluegrass.
whatever music is played be it Irish or Bluegrass or whatever there will be a proportion of players who are r soles and also a lot of very pleasant people too."
# Posted on February 6th 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: Bluegrass vs. Irish
It's funny, some people are wound so tight that if they were to swallow a lump of coal, by the time it got to the other end, they will have produced a diamond.
Naming a genre doesn't mean that it didn't exist before it's naming. Bluegrass music was called Mountain or Hillbilly Music prior to Bill Munroe and before that, it was called Traditional English, Scottish, Irish or Scots/Irish music. Big deal, I'm a musician, not a politician I could give a crap what you call a really good piece, as long as it stirs my soul. The only people it really matters to, is people who's minds are so small that everything has to fit in neat little boxes and to take them out of the box would set those people's internal universes crashing somewhere and they might find out they're really oh, I don't know... a woman trapped in a man's body or something.
As for the Knuckleheads who walk into a Irish Session and demand that a tune be played Mountain or Hillbilly or Bluegrass style, they should go to Italy and demand everybody eat Chef Boyardee Spaghettios and see where that gets them!
# Posted on August 24th 2011 by The Lobstaman
Re: Bluegrass vs. Irish
"would set those people's internal universes crashing somewhere and they might find out they're really oh, I don't know... a woman trapped in a man's body or something."
*giggles* i'm too immature for this website *giggle
# Posted on August 24th 2011 by fiddlelearner