I recently purchased a wooden Irish pennywhistle in D major. However, when I tested it out at a session with a piano (C) and a clarinet (Bb), the notes were't lining up.
Obviously, they are all in different keys, but a D on a D instrument is supposed to be like a C for a C instrument; the basic note for that key. The D on the whistle didn't match with the piano's C.
An experiment proved that it was in between the piano and clarinet; almost like a D# or Db.
Why do you think this is so? The whistle was advertised as D major.
What kind of session has a Clarinet? If the Clarinet is in Bb, then that will throw the whole key off of a session. Irish sessions should be played with a D whistle. If you want Irish music, stick with a D whistle. If you want to play with the clarinet player, then get a Bb.
The root note of the whistle is a D on the whistle, and the note played on a piano would be a D also. Whistle music is customarily written in what I think would be called concert pitch, such that a piano and a whistle would read from the same sheet of music (as would an accordion or fiddle). Unlike the Bflat trumpet, which reads from different music than the other instruments, and whose music, when played by a piano would sound a note higher. There is probably a good musical theory term that explains this, but hopefully, my description gets the point across.
Most whistles are pretty much on concert pitch, although I have a cheap one I bought once that was off pitch like you describe. Also, the pitch of your notes can be more variable when you are just starting out
If the whistle is in D, the bell note (the lowest note playable) would typically be a concert pitch middle D. I'm assuming it's not a tuneable whistle here, otherwise you'd just have moved the tuning slide, job done.
It's possible the other instruments you were tuning to were also out of tune. (I've come across plenty of pianos that were out-of-tune or not at concert pitch in my time!) It's also possible you've got a dud and you need to send it back for a refund. Can you tell us where the whistle came from?
It's worth noting though that the tuning on a whistle is usually a compromise between in tune with itself in both the lower and upper octaves, meaning you have to correct for slight variations in pitch by breath pressure. If the whistle was only off by a tiny amount and you have a good ear but were not correcting you might be hearing that compromise.
This seems to be most apparent on the bell note, so it's worth checking how the tuning is on the other notes.
Sweetheart instruments are tunable, and as others have said the bell note (all holes closed) should be a D. You can probably get it better in tune though by closing the top three holes and tuning to a G.
And, do a bit a reading about D whistles to understand the whole tuning thing better.
"The D on the whistle didn't match with the piano's C... it was in between the piano and clarinet; almost like a D# or Db. " I don't know what you mean by these statements: the D on the whistle would never match the piano's C, and could not be between the piano D and the clarinet D, which should be the same. Was it like a D# or a Db? One is higher, the other lower.
Make sure the whistle is warmed up by playing it for a few minutes (or blowing through it with your finger over the fipple to silence it) and then test it against something you know is correct. If you don't have a tuner , you can use any ABC tune in the right key, or even write DDDD EEEE etc up the scale in ABC and play it back on your pc.
Perhaps the OP wasn't blowing hard enough (through trying to be discreet). A whistle doesn't have a wide dynamic range, and if you blow very softly you can easily drop the pitch by a semitone.
Wooden whistle are often roughly made and with rather random tuning. You can sometimes raise the pitch by polishing the inside of the bore to remove splinters and rough spots, then oiling it. (Use a piece of dowel with sandpaper glued round it; a length of threaded steel rod also makes a handy polishing tool). Before doing this, bang the block out (on a wooden whistle it will only be push-fitted, and it's much easier to work on the bore with it out). You do this by putting a dowel (flat-ended so as not to penetrate the block) up the whistle, with a sock over the end to stop the block flying across the room. Bang the whistle down on a hard surface. Seems drastic when you first try it, but I've done it with thousands of pounds worth of instruments now. You many need many repeats of the polishing and oiling operations before you get it spot-on.
I usually use peanut oil for oiling, almond is more popular. Hungarians use baby oil but they're nuts.
The names of the notes are being used in too many different ways here for us to understand what really happened. Maybe if we can clarify the terminology, Niki can say more clearly what occurred.
Let's agree to use letters (C, D, E, etc.) and sharps or flats to refer to concert pitch - the actual sound that is made - and not the fingering used on the instrument. For the fingerings, use Do, Re, Mi, etc., where Do is the "bell" note, where all fingers are down. (For the piano, let's take this by convention to mean middle C.)
In the classical world (and presumably jazz and other genres), wind players "think in C", meaning that they associate Do fingering with C, Re fingering with D, Mi fingering with E, etc., especially when they are reading music. The instrument then automatically transposes to its own key. So if a clarinetist plays a Do on a Bb clarinet, he/she thinks of it as a C, but it comes out as a concert-pitch Bb. If you ask that clarinetist to play a D, they could do one of two things:
(1) use a Re fingering since they associate Re with D, which the instrument transposes down to a C (Do=Bb, Re=C, Mi=D on a Bb instrument);
(2) assume that you want a concert pitch D, and realize that to get it on a Bb instrument they have to use a Mi fingering.
Presumably one of these two things happened when Niki did the experiment.
In the world of Irish music, the D whistle is standard. If the player thinks about keys and scales at all (and I'm guessing many don't), they associate Do with D, Re with E, Mi with F#, etc. If you ask such a player to play a D, they'll play Do, and it will be a concert pitch D on a D whistle (unless the instrument is poorly tuned or they aren't blowing with the right pressure).
However, if the whistle player is coming to Irish music from the outside, he/she may have the classical mindset. If you asked that player to play a D on a D whistle, they would either:
(1) think Do=C, Re=D, Mi=E, and play a Re fingering, which the whistle would transpose up to E; or
(2) assume you want a concert pitch D and use a Do fingering, thinking of it as if it were a C.
If these assumptions are accurate, there are four possibilities (assuming the piano was playing C and that all instruments are in tune):
(1) clarinet=C, whistle=E;
(2) clarinet=C, whistle=D;
(3) clarinet=D, whistle=E; or
(4) clarinet=D, whistle=D.
The only case in which the whistle would be between the piano and the clarinet is (4) with the whistle being a bit flat. So it sounds like Jack Campin has it right.
If a Bb clarinetist wants to play in the key of D, he/she has to transpose the tune into "E" (using the fingerings Mi, Fa#, Sol#, La, Ti, Do#, Re#) and let the instrument transpose back down to concert pitch D.
If you were to use a Bb whistle, you would play it just as if it were a D whistle, but the tune would come out in Bb. The pianist would have to transpose from D to Bb. The clarinetist would have to transpose from D to C mentally or on paper and the instrument would bring it down from C to Bb.
If you were to use a C whistle, you would play it like a D whistle, but the tune would come out in C. The pianist would have to transpose from D to C. The clarinetist would use music "written" in D, and the instrument would transpose it to C.
Could you ask an experienced whistle player to see if he/she can get it to play in tune after a brief tryout? If not, consider asking for a replacement.
As noted above, the wooden Sweeathearts are tuneable. As an another way to check it out, does someone you know have an electronic tuner? See if you can use the tuner to get the whistle into the right range. There are tuner apps, too: Cleartune for iPhone/iPod Touch works well for me and is only $4.
The odds of a random session-piano being in tune are low, so don't place to much stock in that.
Your initial playing will be alone at home, I imagine, and any whistle will do for that, regardless of how it fits in with other instruments. Sweetheart makes good whistles, so once you get the hang of things, I imagine you will find it closer to the correct pitch.
Good luck, and enjoy, whistle playing is a lot of fun!
if the whistle is in D then the notes you play - starting from the bottom (all holes covered) are
d, e, f#, g, a b, c#
if you play these alongside a piano playing the same notes d, e f# etc, then you should be in tune with each other.
I play both - but not at the same time
A further geeky transposition note. Like piccolo, if you're reading music on a D whistle it does transpose by an octave.
As other folks have noted, Sweetheart instruments are generally reasonably close to concert pitch and made with a tuning slide. Adjust the tuning slide to where you can blow the instrument into concert pitch. If it's a semitone flat pushed all the way in, most likely you aren't blowing hard enough.
Irish whistle key of D?
Irish whistle key of D?
Hi,
I recently purchased a wooden Irish pennywhistle in D major. However, when I tested it out at a session with a piano (C) and a clarinet (Bb), the notes were't lining up.
Obviously, they are all in different keys, but a D on a D instrument is supposed to be like a C for a C instrument; the basic note for that key. The D on the whistle didn't match with the piano's C.
An experiment proved that it was in between the piano and clarinet; almost like a D# or Db.
Why do you think this is so? The whistle was advertised as D major.
Thanks for reading,
Niki D.
# Posted on January 22nd 2011 by nikileid
Re: Irish whistle key of D?
What kind of session has a Clarinet? If the Clarinet is in Bb, then that will throw the whole key off of a session. Irish sessions should be played with a D whistle. If you want Irish music, stick with a D whistle. If you want to play with the clarinet player, then get a Bb.
# Posted on January 22nd 2011 by pipersgrip
Re: Irish whistle key of D?
The root note of the whistle is a D on the whistle, and the note played on a piano would be a D also. Whistle music is customarily written in what I think would be called concert pitch, such that a piano and a whistle would read from the same sheet of music (as would an accordion or fiddle). Unlike the Bflat trumpet, which reads from different music than the other instruments, and whose music, when played by a piano would sound a note higher. There is probably a good musical theory term that explains this, but hopefully, my description gets the point across.
Most whistles are pretty much on concert pitch, although I have a cheap one I bought once that was off pitch like you describe. Also, the pitch of your notes can be more variable when you are just starting out
# Posted on January 22nd 2011 by AlBrown
Re: Irish whistle key of D?
If the whistle is in D, the bell note (the lowest note playable) would typically be a concert pitch middle D. I'm assuming it's not a tuneable whistle here, otherwise you'd just have moved the tuning slide, job done.
It's possible the other instruments you were tuning to were also out of tune. (I've come across plenty of pianos that were out-of-tune or not at concert pitch in my time!) It's also possible you've got a dud and you need to send it back for a refund. Can you tell us where the whistle came from?
It's worth noting though that the tuning on a whistle is usually a compromise between in tune with itself in both the lower and upper octaves, meaning you have to correct for slight variations in pitch by breath pressure. If the whistle was only off by a tiny amount and you have a good ear but were not correcting you might be hearing that compromise.
This seems to be most apparent on the bell note, so it's worth checking how the tuning is on the other notes.
# Posted on January 22nd 2011 by Red Menace
Re: Irish whistle key of D?
The whistle was from Sweetheart flutes. And it seemed to be off by a pretty good deal, but then as you said, it could because I'm just starting out.
# Posted on January 22nd 2011 by nikileid
Re: Irish whistle key of D?
I'd say it was probably in D (demented) or Bb (argumentive)
# Posted on January 22nd 2011 by banjoburger
Re: Irish whistle key of D?
Sweetheart instruments are tunable, and as others have said the bell note (all holes closed) should be a D. You can probably get it better in tune though by closing the top three holes and tuning to a G.
And, do a bit a reading about D whistles to understand the whole tuning thing better.
# Posted on January 22nd 2011 by cboody
Re: Irish whistle key of D?
cboody, there's not much you can do if the intonation of the whistle is wrong to start with..
# Posted on January 22nd 2011 by banjoburger
Re: Irish whistle key of D?
"The D on the whistle didn't match with the piano's C... it was in between the piano and clarinet; almost like a D# or Db. " I don't know what you mean by these statements: the D on the whistle would never match the piano's C, and could not be between the piano D and the clarinet D, which should be the same. Was it like a D# or a Db? One is higher, the other lower.
Make sure the whistle is warmed up by playing it for a few minutes (or blowing through it with your finger over the fipple to silence it) and then test it against something you know is correct. If you don't have a tuner , you can use any ABC tune in the right key, or even write DDDD EEEE etc up the scale in ABC and play it back on your pc.
# Posted on January 22nd 2011 by gam
Re: Irish whistle key of D?
The Bb clarinet's "D" is actually a C. The D whistle "D" really
) if they're playing by ear or transposing C sheet music.
is a "D". The piano's D really is a "D".
Clarinet players are well aware of this and know how to
transpose (or should know
An A clarinet's "D" is actually a B, however, but the average player
doesn't have one of these.
# Posted on January 22nd 2011 by Hup
Re: Irish whistle key of D?
Perhaps the OP wasn't blowing hard enough (through trying to be discreet). A whistle doesn't have a wide dynamic range, and if you blow very softly you can easily drop the pitch by a semitone.
Wooden whistle are often roughly made and with rather random tuning. You can sometimes raise the pitch by polishing the inside of the bore to remove splinters and rough spots, then oiling it. (Use a piece of dowel with sandpaper glued round it; a length of threaded steel rod also makes a handy polishing tool). Before doing this, bang the block out (on a wooden whistle it will only be push-fitted, and it's much easier to work on the bore with it out). You do this by putting a dowel (flat-ended so as not to penetrate the block) up the whistle, with a sock over the end to stop the block flying across the room. Bang the whistle down on a hard surface. Seems drastic when you first try it, but I've done it with thousands of pounds worth of instruments now. You many need many repeats of the polishing and oiling operations before you get it spot-on.
I usually use peanut oil for oiling, almond is more popular. Hungarians use baby oil but they're nuts.
# Posted on January 22nd 2011 by Jack Campin
Re: Irish whistle key of D?
The names of the notes are being used in too many different ways here for us to understand what really happened. Maybe if we can clarify the terminology, Niki can say more clearly what occurred.
Let's agree to use letters (C, D, E, etc.) and sharps or flats to refer to concert pitch - the actual sound that is made - and not the fingering used on the instrument. For the fingerings, use Do, Re, Mi, etc., where Do is the "bell" note, where all fingers are down. (For the piano, let's take this by convention to mean middle C.)
In the classical world (and presumably jazz and other genres), wind players "think in C", meaning that they associate Do fingering with C, Re fingering with D, Mi fingering with E, etc., especially when they are reading music. The instrument then automatically transposes to its own key. So if a clarinetist plays a Do on a Bb clarinet, he/she thinks of it as a C, but it comes out as a concert-pitch Bb. If you ask that clarinetist to play a D, they could do one of two things:
(1) use a Re fingering since they associate Re with D, which the instrument transposes down to a C (Do=Bb, Re=C, Mi=D on a Bb instrument);
(2) assume that you want a concert pitch D, and realize that to get it on a Bb instrument they have to use a Mi fingering.
Presumably one of these two things happened when Niki did the experiment.
In the world of Irish music, the D whistle is standard. If the player thinks about keys and scales at all (and I'm guessing many don't), they associate Do with D, Re with E, Mi with F#, etc. If you ask such a player to play a D, they'll play Do, and it will be a concert pitch D on a D whistle (unless the instrument is poorly tuned or they aren't blowing with the right pressure).
However, if the whistle player is coming to Irish music from the outside, he/she may have the classical mindset. If you asked that player to play a D on a D whistle, they would either:
(1) think Do=C, Re=D, Mi=E, and play a Re fingering, which the whistle would transpose up to E; or
(2) assume you want a concert pitch D and use a Do fingering, thinking of it as if it were a C.
If these assumptions are accurate, there are four possibilities (assuming the piano was playing C and that all instruments are in tune):
(1) clarinet=C, whistle=E;
(2) clarinet=C, whistle=D;
(3) clarinet=D, whistle=E; or
(4) clarinet=D, whistle=D.
The only case in which the whistle would be between the piano and the clarinet is (4) with the whistle being a bit flat. So it sounds like Jack Campin has it right.
If a Bb clarinetist wants to play in the key of D, he/she has to transpose the tune into "E" (using the fingerings Mi, Fa#, Sol#, La, Ti, Do#, Re#) and let the instrument transpose back down to concert pitch D.
If you were to use a Bb whistle, you would play it just as if it were a D whistle, but the tune would come out in Bb. The pianist would have to transpose from D to Bb. The clarinetist would have to transpose from D to C mentally or on paper and the instrument would bring it down from C to Bb.
If you were to use a C whistle, you would play it like a D whistle, but the tune would come out in C. The pianist would have to transpose from D to C. The clarinetist would use music "written" in D, and the instrument would transpose it to C.
# Posted on January 22nd 2011 by GaryAMartin
Re: Irish whistle key of D?
Simple as that : ]
# Posted on January 22nd 2011 by gam
Re: Irish whistle key of D?
Could you ask an experienced whistle player to see if he/she can get it to play in tune after a brief tryout? If not, consider asking for a replacement.
As noted above, the wooden Sweeathearts are tuneable. As an another way to check it out, does someone you know have an electronic tuner? See if you can use the tuner to get the whistle into the right range. There are tuner apps, too: Cleartune for iPhone/iPod Touch works well for me and is only $4.
The odds of a random session-piano being in tune are low, so don't place to much stock in that.
# Posted on January 22nd 2011 by boxist
Re: Irish whistle key of D?
Thanks all for the tips. Situation doesn't seem as hopeless as first imagined. I'll be playing around with the whistle to see what I can do.
# Posted on January 22nd 2011 by nikileid
Re: Irish whistle key of D?
Your initial playing will be alone at home, I imagine, and any whistle will do for that, regardless of how it fits in with other instruments. Sweetheart makes good whistles, so once you get the hang of things, I imagine you will find it closer to the correct pitch.
Good luck, and enjoy, whistle playing is a lot of fun!
# Posted on January 22nd 2011 by AlBrown
Re: Irish whistle key of D?
if the whistle is in D then the notes you play - starting from the bottom (all holes covered) are
d, e, f#, g, a b, c#
if you play these alongside a piano playing the same notes d, e f# etc, then you should be in tune with each other.
I play both - but not at the same time
I'm afraid I don't know anything about clarinets.
# Posted on January 22nd 2011 by Fiona A
Re: Irish whistle key of D?
@banjoburger "cboody, there's not much you can do if the intonation of the whistle is wrong to start with.."
I've played many Sweetheart instruments. I seriously doubt that the instrument is out of tune (at least no more than most whistles may be).
# Posted on January 23rd 2011 by cboody
Re: Irish whistle key of D?
A further geeky transposition note. Like piccolo, if you're reading music on a D whistle it does transpose by an octave.
As other folks have noted, Sweetheart instruments are generally reasonably close to concert pitch and made with a tuning slide. Adjust the tuning slide to where you can blow the instrument into concert pitch. If it's a semitone flat pushed all the way in, most likely you aren't blowing hard enough.
# Posted on January 24th 2011 by ElaineT
Re: Irish whistle key of D?
where do u live? need a lesson?
# Posted on February 1st 2011 by Odin