I want to know what the difference is between a jeffries 45 key to the 'regular' 38 key? Can the same tunes be played? Which is better for trad? What's the difference?
The "normal" concertina for Irish music is a 30 button C/G Anglo, although more buttons is very common. On an Anglo, when you add more buttons, the core system doesn't change, so even if you don't know how to use the extra buttons you can still play the same music.
Any duet concertina is meant for playing multiple melodic lines or minimally designed to play full harmonic accompaniment, generally melody on right hand and accompaniment on left. Anglo concertinas play a different note on the push than pull, whereas duets play the same note in both directions. Jeffries duet is unique in that it was initially designed to be a 'unisonoric' Anglo, i.e. if you look at the layout it's an Anglo that got smashed and spread out. That being said, it is a VERY different system, but od all the duet systems it is the easiest for Anglo players to find all the notes (but not necessarily the easiest to plau).
All in all it is not recommended to get a duet for Irish music, unless of course you happen to have one already or plan on playing another genre more often.
Anglo definitely better for trad tunes Irish C/G , English probably G/D
I have a Jeffries Duet like in the Polly Clapp article , pretty tricky and not best for trad tunes but brilliant for jazz, Classical, Music Hall, Look up The Rampin' Cat by Michael Hebbert , Free Reed CD
The advantage most duets sytems have is an octave overlap left and right.
If the player plays single line on the duet, there are options for left and right for the same note for an octave,
It is relatively easy to play passages in octaves, and passages in unison[this is quite subtle], or to use the notes within the octave for cutting as grace notes,eg cut on left hand side while playing melody on right or vice versa.
What reasons are there why duets should not be suitable for irish music?
@cunning: well, the most important reason i do not recommend the duet for irish music is that you will be in complete isolation. you will not be able to ask anyone for any tricks of the trade, go to any workshops or summer schools, and certainly not be able to trade concertinas with anyone at a session.
unless you have a very good reason for playing the duet in irish music, i don't think it is really worth the extra effort it will take. think of it this way... on the anglo, i can learn from someone who has been playing for 40 years, who in turn copied players who had been playing their whole lives as well. think of all the work that has been done for me! i can also go find another player who has been playing for just as long (or a book tutor), and learn their system.
the instrument in and of itself is of course suitable to irish music, but there is no tradition of it being played. i differentiate between it being suitable and recommended. i am saying that the duet is not recommended, though of course could be suitable if sufficient effort is put forth.
to illustrated what i mean, i will talk about the silver flute in irish music. so, in the following anecdote, understand the silver flute to be analogous to a duet concertina, and the wooden flute to hold the same traditional background as the anglo concertina.
i play the silver flute in irish music, which is not considered traditional. there was a brief point in the 70's and 80's where a lot of players were frustrated at the quality of available flutes, so they just played the silver flute. then, when newly made irish flutes (and good antiques came out of the woodwork, so to speak), most players switched back to wooden flutes. there are a few that still play the silver flute that are leftover from this era. some examples are joanie madden, noel rice, and my uncle brian mccoy (shameless plug for my uncle: http://kellsband.com/Kells/Welcome.html and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7aXgFPpL62Y ).
i play the silver flute because it is tradition to me. i didn't know there was another flute for irish music until i was in my teens. i learned the silver flute expressly to learn irish music, and happened to join band because it was convenient. if my uncle had played wooden flute, then i would never have learned the silver flute. in band at school, i would have probably played the clarinet, and played the flute at home for irish music.
as someone who has played a non-traditional instrument in irish music for for more than half my life, i can say i do not recommend it. it made sense for me, because i could call up my uncle any day asking questions about fingering, tonguing, embouchure, and tone. most people cannot call up someone like joanie madden or my uncle and pester them several hours every month for 10 years! likewise, it is very unlikely that you will be able to go to a session and observe a local, high-level player on the silver flute.
the rolls that he taught me are so different than the wooden flute rolls that i would never have figured them out myself. i spent countless hours for yeras and years struggling to get the deepest, darkest, "irish tone" i could have out of the flute. if i had played the wooden flute, those sounds would be natural to the instrument.
the only reason i stuck with it through all those years is because the silver flute is part of my identity. i cannot remember a time in my life as a child when i did not want to play irish music on the silver flute.
if one does not have a strong reason to play the silver flute in irish music, i think that the wooden flute is a fine choice and a lot easier. if someone has $1,000 in the bank set aside to buy a flute and start learning irish music, i would never tell them to buy a silver flute. i would tell them it is a LOT more work, and you might as well go with the wooden flute. if someone comes up to me with a silver flute in hand, i will teach them as much as they are willing to learn, and never tell them they need to switch flutes.
the following, in my book, are good reasons to play the silver flute in irish music:
1. you already have one, and cannot afford or are unwilling to buy a wooden flute
2. you happen to live in an area where there are strong silver flute players to learn from
3. you are a classical flute player and would like to try out irish music before devoting yourself to a new type of flute
4. you want to be able to play irish music in strange keys (and already play the wooden flute)
5. you have a strong drive to the style and sound of the silver flute in irish music (especially, if like me, you grew up not realizing there was another option until it was too late).
so, in conclusion, i would say that i do not recommend to play a duet in irish music unless someone already owns a duet, or has an unquenchable passion to play the duet in irish music. the other good reason to play a duet system in irish music is if one trying to expand their irish concertina-system repertoire onto a duet from the anglo.
or, in other words: if my great grand-aunt had played a duet, then i would be playing one. she played the anglo, i play the anglo, and that's all there is to it. she had a very good reason for playing the anglo: it was the only type of concertina available to her, ipso facto it is the only type i actively recommend.
duet and anglo - the difference?
duet and anglo - the difference?
I want to know what the difference is between a jeffries 45 key to the 'regular' 38 key? Can the same tunes be played? Which is better for trad? What's the difference?
# Posted on January 16th 2011 by fineflautist
Re: duet and anglo - the difference?
Have a look at this article - http://www.concertina.com/jeffries-duet/Clapp-Jeffries-Duet.pdf.
# Posted on January 16th 2011 by MacCruiskeen
Re: duet and anglo - the difference?
Fascinating article MacCruiskeen. Thanks for posting the link.
Cheers
Dick
# Posted on January 16th 2011 by Ptarmigan
Re: duet and anglo - the difference?
The "normal" concertina for Irish music is a 30 button C/G Anglo, although more buttons is very common. On an Anglo, when you add more buttons, the core system doesn't change, so even if you don't know how to use the extra buttons you can still play the same music.
Any duet concertina is meant for playing multiple melodic lines or minimally designed to play full harmonic accompaniment, generally melody on right hand and accompaniment on left. Anglo concertinas play a different note on the push than pull, whereas duets play the same note in both directions. Jeffries duet is unique in that it was initially designed to be a 'unisonoric' Anglo, i.e. if you look at the layout it's an Anglo that got smashed and spread out. That being said, it is a VERY different system, but od all the duet systems it is the easiest for Anglo players to find all the notes (but not necessarily the easiest to plau).
All in all it is not recommended to get a duet for Irish music, unless of course you happen to have one already or plan on playing another genre more often.
# Posted on January 16th 2011 by daiv
Re: duet and anglo - the difference?
Anglo definitely better for trad tunes Irish C/G , English probably G/D
I have a Jeffries Duet like in the Polly Clapp article , pretty tricky and not best for trad tunes but brilliant for jazz, Classical, Music Hall, Look up The Rampin' Cat by Michael Hebbert , Free Reed CD
Duet International CDs are due out soon
Google concertina net
# Posted on January 16th 2011 by Michael Sam Wild
Re: duet and anglo - the difference?
Here's a Jeffries Duet being used by the late Nick Robertshaw to accompany Planxty Fanny Power.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pIBof0Fpapo
Watching Peter Trimming Play on his Jeffries Duet here, as an Anglo player, I must admit, I find it hard to understand his finger movements.
Marche des Cabrettaires:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZ8_gBmii1A
&
Cancion de Cuna:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GI86PWlB_cM
I reckon Michael has it about right above & this is probably more like the sort of music the instrument was designed to play .... a Bouree by Bach!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdTaIp1sGvk
.... or this: J.S. Bach, Air on G string
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CCmXyu4-2V8
Cheers
Dick
# Posted on January 17th 2011 by Ptarmigan
Re: duet and anglo - the difference?
hey dick--stop. you are making me fall in love with jeffries' duet.... my wallet can't take any more abuse.
# Posted on January 17th 2011 by daiv
Re: duet and anglo - the difference?
The advantage most duets sytems have is an octave overlap left and right.
If the player plays single line on the duet, there are options for left and right for the same note for an octave,
It is relatively easy to play passages in octaves, and passages in unison[this is quite subtle], or to use the notes within the octave for cutting as grace notes,eg cut on left hand side while playing melody on right or vice versa.
What reasons are there why duets should not be suitable for irish music?
# Posted on January 17th 2011 by Joseph Tailyour
Re: duet and anglo - the difference?
@cunning: well, the most important reason i do not recommend the duet for irish music is that you will be in complete isolation. you will not be able to ask anyone for any tricks of the trade, go to any workshops or summer schools, and certainly not be able to trade concertinas with anyone at a session.
unless you have a very good reason for playing the duet in irish music, i don't think it is really worth the extra effort it will take. think of it this way... on the anglo, i can learn from someone who has been playing for 40 years, who in turn copied players who had been playing their whole lives as well. think of all the work that has been done for me! i can also go find another player who has been playing for just as long (or a book tutor), and learn their system.
the instrument in and of itself is of course suitable to irish music, but there is no tradition of it being played. i differentiate between it being suitable and recommended. i am saying that the duet is not recommended, though of course could be suitable if sufficient effort is put forth.
to illustrated what i mean, i will talk about the silver flute in irish music. so, in the following anecdote, understand the silver flute to be analogous to a duet concertina, and the wooden flute to hold the same traditional background as the anglo concertina.
i play the silver flute in irish music, which is not considered traditional. there was a brief point in the 70's and 80's where a lot of players were frustrated at the quality of available flutes, so they just played the silver flute. then, when newly made irish flutes (and good antiques came out of the woodwork, so to speak), most players switched back to wooden flutes. there are a few that still play the silver flute that are leftover from this era. some examples are joanie madden, noel rice, and my uncle brian mccoy (shameless plug for my uncle: http://kellsband.com/Kells/Welcome.html and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7aXgFPpL62Y ).
i play the silver flute because it is tradition to me. i didn't know there was another flute for irish music until i was in my teens. i learned the silver flute expressly to learn irish music, and happened to join band because it was convenient. if my uncle had played wooden flute, then i would never have learned the silver flute. in band at school, i would have probably played the clarinet, and played the flute at home for irish music.
as someone who has played a non-traditional instrument in irish music for for more than half my life, i can say i do not recommend it. it made sense for me, because i could call up my uncle any day asking questions about fingering, tonguing, embouchure, and tone. most people cannot call up someone like joanie madden or my uncle and pester them several hours every month for 10 years! likewise, it is very unlikely that you will be able to go to a session and observe a local, high-level player on the silver flute.
the rolls that he taught me are so different than the wooden flute rolls that i would never have figured them out myself. i spent countless hours for yeras and years struggling to get the deepest, darkest, "irish tone" i could have out of the flute. if i had played the wooden flute, those sounds would be natural to the instrument.
the only reason i stuck with it through all those years is because the silver flute is part of my identity. i cannot remember a time in my life as a child when i did not want to play irish music on the silver flute.
if one does not have a strong reason to play the silver flute in irish music, i think that the wooden flute is a fine choice and a lot easier. if someone has $1,000 in the bank set aside to buy a flute and start learning irish music, i would never tell them to buy a silver flute. i would tell them it is a LOT more work, and you might as well go with the wooden flute. if someone comes up to me with a silver flute in hand, i will teach them as much as they are willing to learn, and never tell them they need to switch flutes.
the following, in my book, are good reasons to play the silver flute in irish music:
1. you already have one, and cannot afford or are unwilling to buy a wooden flute
2. you happen to live in an area where there are strong silver flute players to learn from
3. you are a classical flute player and would like to try out irish music before devoting yourself to a new type of flute
4. you want to be able to play irish music in strange keys (and already play the wooden flute)
5. you have a strong drive to the style and sound of the silver flute in irish music (especially, if like me, you grew up not realizing there was another option until it was too late).
so, in conclusion, i would say that i do not recommend to play a duet in irish music unless someone already owns a duet, or has an unquenchable passion to play the duet in irish music. the other good reason to play a duet system in irish music is if one trying to expand their irish concertina-system repertoire onto a duet from the anglo.
or, in other words: if my great grand-aunt had played a duet, then i would be playing one. she played the anglo, i play the anglo, and that's all there is to it. she had a very good reason for playing the anglo: it was the only type of concertina available to her, ipso facto it is the only type i actively recommend.
# Posted on January 20th 2011 by daiv