Bow re-hairing and steel v.s. synthetic strings question
Bow re-hairing and steel v.s. synthetic strings question
Hi,
I have two questions. I've had my bow for about four years and have never re-haired it. How do I tell if it needs to be re-haired?
My other question is, I've been looking for a new set of strings and I want to try something I've never used before, just to experiment. The main thing I'm wondering about though is whether to get steel or synthetic core. My fiddle has always had synthetics on it and I was considering getting steel, but I don't want to hurt anything, because I've heard that steel strings can bend a neck or wreck up the bridge. What is the risk of that happening? Also, any string recommendations are welcome
Thanks.
Re: Bow re-hairing and steel v.s. synthetic strings question
how often you need a re-hair usually depends on how much you play. Don't just get one because you think you need one - if the hairs aren't breaking and it plays okay, then you probably can keep using it for awhile longer. As for strings, if you're planning to spend your life playing, then you'll probably have a chance to try them all. Just get used to the idea. I like helicores (the heavy ones), but ever since I heard Lucy Farr liked the green Prims I've been wanting to try them.
Re: Bow re-hairing and steel v.s. synthetic strings question
who told you steel strings could damage your fiddle? ridiculous. I bet it was a guitar player - that's the first lesson you should learn as a fiddle player - don't listen to guitarists!
Re: Bow re-hairing and steel v.s. synthetic strings question
I also use heavy helicores, they sound and respond great on my fiddle, a hundred year old German. But I tried the green and the brown prims and they were horrible. You don't know until you try really. My fiddle is quite solid, heavy bilt, so the tension is probably ok, but I don't know if I would put heavy strings on a more fragile fiddle. It really depends on the instrument. Bring your fiddle to a good luthier and ask. Good luck.
Re: Bow re-hairing and steel v.s. synthetic strings question
You need to rehair a bow only if the micro barbs are clogged full of glazed rosin, or so many hairs have broken that it looks like a bald guy with a bad combover. In either case, your traction on the strings will be less and your tone will be thinner than with new hair.
Chances are, after four years, you should get it rehaired. I rehair mine every 6 months or so, playing 20 or more hours a week.
Strings: steel core strings won't hurt your fiddle. Helicore's are a good place to start with steel cores. If you've always played synth core, you may find you prefer the softer feel of synth under the fingers. Steel core offer a slightly faster response under the bow, and some fiddles sound better with good quality steel core strings. The higher tension isn't enough to harm your fiddle (unless it's in really delicate condition--unrepaired top cracks, a failing tail block, etc). Yet the higher tension can help "load" a fiddle and bring out hidden tone and volume.
My own fiddle seems to like Thomastik Vision strings the best, synth core. I've run Helicores and Prims and Evah Pirrazzis and Chromocore, and the Visions simply sound the best for my fiddle. YMMV.
Re: Bow re-hairing and steel v.s. synthetic strings question
Steel strings do put a bit more tension on the instrument, but unless your fiddle is from the baroque period or a very light hand-built instrument there will be no problem - every fiddler you see using steel strings is using an instrument just like yours. They don't make heavier fiddles to go with steel strings like they do with guitars.
As to re-hairing, under the microscope horsehair looks like a rat's tail - covered in scales. Over time those scales wear off, leaving a smooth surface, and that is the time to replace the hair.
If, like a lot of trad players, you mostly play with a short section of the bow, that area will wear first. Try playing some long notes using the whole bow. If it seems to have less grip and hiss across the strings at the worn patch, then it's time for new hair.
If you play with a classical like style and use the whole bow equally, then you just have to judge when it is not giving the bite you want.
For someone who plays lightly, and just does an hour or two a day, a bow might last a couple of years. If you're a heavy player and practice several hours per day, it might be a matter of weeks.
Re: Bow re-hairing and steel v.s. synthetic strings question
Hold your bow about a third of the way up from the frog and play a few notes with the very tip -- about three or four inches -- which, as skreech points out, hardly gets used. You should be able to tell if there is a difference in traction. If you can't notice a difference, it probably will last a bit longer.
Re: Bow re-hairing and steel v.s. synthetic strings question
thanks for the advice, y'all! I saw a guitar that had had it's neck warped really badly from steel strings, also read it somewhere, don't remember where, just making sure.
Re: Bow re-hairing and steel v.s. synthetic strings question
I did have Chromcor steel strings on my fiddle, and I liked them, but taking a tip from someone's comment on an earlier discussion about steel strings I replaced them (after I'd given them 6 months) with Spirocores and I like them even better. Both these sets of strings suit my fiddle as it is mellow and woody in tone and likes to be brightened up.
Re: Bow re-hairing and steel v.s. synthetic strings question
According to Steven Beckley, a bow maker and supplier of luthiers’ products in Los Altos, California...“We start to talk about ‘bite’,” says Beckley. “This is a wonderfully subjective thing that’s tough to quantify. I think people’s perceptions of horsehair come from some drawings from the turn of the century, which have little arms and fingers coming out of horsehairs, grabbing onto your strings. When you actually see photos of magnified hair, there aren’t barbs at all. I think bite comes from the hair’s ability to hold rosin. "
Re: Bow re-hairing and steel v.s. synthetic strings question
You're right, it is the rosin that gives the bite. But the rosin only sticks to the hair because of the roughness of the outer scales (try applying rosin so something smooth, like a nylon guitar string - it won't take at all).
Once you wear through the scales to the core of the hair, it won't hold rosin and therefore loses its bite.
There's a vaguely relevant article with some good pictures here:
Re: Bow re-hairing and steel v.s. synthetic strings question
leoj, yes, but the hair has scales and ridges and edges (some bow makers call them 'barbs') which is what grabs the rosin. Without those scales, horsehair would not take the rosin.
Did you look at the pix of hair under magnification that skreech posted, or are you just being snarky?
Re: Bow re-hairing and steel v.s. synthetic strings question
I've found that Helicores really sound much better. I've tried many synthetic strings, and have settled for the Helicores. They sound great, and really pull out more tone from the strings. I love that they last longer. My Helicore A lasted almost 1 1/2 years, instead of 6 months like the synthetic strings. I like the tone of the Helicores vs. the Prims - the Prims were too harsh. Plus, the Helicores were the only strings that sounded halfway decent on my cheap fiddle, so much that I tried then on my regular fiddle. You may find yourself having to adust to the string and maybe have a different approach to the bowing. The synthetic strings will behave different from the metal strings. I've heard that synthetic are more responsive, but I haven't found that to be a problem with the metal strings. Never heard anything about metal strings harming the fiddle. I'm guessing that metal strings have been around a lot longer than synthetic strings.
Re: Bow re-hairing and steel v.s. synthetic strings question
maybe this can solve a problem i have too. my fiddle just sounds like the strings are too loose, now i have have tried to tighten an octave higher but it practically screams at me to stop. i tune with a tuner and many other such instruments to try and help but the results are the same. i would say my strings are synthetic but they could also just be cheap and nasty. would the steels be a worthy investment to try and even it out a bit? at present the tone is very inconsistant which doesnt help me much with learning.
Re: Bow re-hairing and steel v.s. synthetic strings question
just gave that a go gam, but it still seems quite low. maybe it doesnt help that the guitar is a huge dreadnaught with heavy guage strings though. from what i have read here and elsewhere i think i would be suited better to steels. i never got on with nylon string with guitars so maybe the same theory will ring true with the fiddle aswell. didnt they originally use gut for strings though? can you still get them? or does anyone know where i could find out what gut it is? i know there is a lot of uses i have lashed rods together with deer gut and sinew before and it went rock hard so i assume that wouldnt work. unless "gut" was metaphorical.
Re: Bow re-hairing and steel v.s. synthetic strings question
You can certainly still get gut strings - they are used by a lot of orchestral players. But I wouldn't recommend them for a beginner, and certainly not if you are having tuning problems, they're a real pain in the butt to keep working.
If you want to try gut look for a set of Pirastro Eudoxa or Golds. But don't even think about trying to make your own - they are made from the small intestine of sheep, but there is an awful lot of processing involved.
Re: Bow re-hairing and steel v.s. synthetic strings question
I also use helicores (medium). I've tried all kinds of strings and always end up going back to helicore. The D tends to always go dead before the others, but other than that I think they are great. But it also depends on the fiddle.... strings will sound different on each instrument.
And ditto on what everyone said about rehairing. I've never actually had bowhair get gunked up with rosin before needed to rehair, which I only do about every 5 years or so, but I've seen on others. I change my bow hair when there aren't enough hairs left for my liking.
Re: Bow re-hairing and steel v.s. synthetic strings question
I love Helicores, and I've tried every expensive synthetic at one time or another.
For the bow, you can try cleaning the hair with alcohol. It's a little tricky, because you don't want to get alcohol on the stick. What I do is unscrew the frog and lay the bow on a table, with the tip of the bow just over the edge of the table, and the frog and hair swinging from the tip. Apply alcohol to the hair by rubbing it with a cloth with alcohol on it, then rubbing it off with another cloth. Let it dry, and re-attach the frog.
You'll need to put rosin on because the hair will be free of rosin. When I do this, the bow (fiddle) typically sounds much better than before.
Re: Bow re-hairing and steel v.s. synthetic strings question
The reason why guitar necks bend when steel strings replace nylon, is simply that guitars intended to have steel strings have a steel reinforcement bar (often adjustable) running up inside the neck. 'Nylon' guitars don't have such strong necks and thus distort when too much tension is applied. Fiddles are constructed differently, but even these will distort if you try to tune too high, do don't try putting a cello string on and pushing it to top 'e' !
Re: Bow re-hairing and steel v.s. synthetic strings question
gut strings are fine for a beginner, wound gut that is? I've never tried unwound gut, but have always wanted to, but can imagine it might be different. Sythetic is more like gut in terms of sound, feel, and tension than steel is. Steel strings have higher tension than both and will make your strings feel slightly tighter. I love the low tension of fiddle strings though, guitars usually feel too tight to me.
Re: Bow re-hairing and steel v.s. synthetic strings question
I say that because my first strings after the factory set were Pirastro gut strings (free trial at the time) and the only difference of note would be softer quieter tone which is actually can be an asset when you're first learning. I have often thought of getting a custom made bridge at double the weight of my current one to make my fiddler quieter for practicing up the neck.
Bow re-hairing and steel v.s. synthetic strings question
Bow re-hairing and steel v.s. synthetic strings question
Hi,
I have two questions. I've had my bow for about four years and have never re-haired it. How do I tell if it needs to be re-haired?
My other question is, I've been looking for a new set of strings and I want to try something I've never used before, just to experiment. The main thing I'm wondering about though is whether to get steel or synthetic core. My fiddle has always had synthetics on it and I was considering getting steel, but I don't want to hurt anything, because I've heard that steel strings can bend a neck or wreck up the bridge. What is the risk of that happening? Also, any string recommendations are welcome
Thanks.
# Posted on January 14th 2011 by Becky-o
Re: Bow re-hairing and steel v.s. synthetic strings question
how often you need a re-hair usually depends on how much you play. Don't just get one because you think you need one - if the hairs aren't breaking and it plays okay, then you probably can keep using it for awhile longer. As for strings, if you're planning to spend your life playing, then you'll probably have a chance to try them all. Just get used to the idea. I like helicores (the heavy ones), but ever since I heard Lucy Farr liked the green Prims I've been wanting to try them.
# Posted on January 14th 2011 by airport
Re: Bow re-hairing and steel v.s. synthetic strings question
who told you steel strings could damage your fiddle? ridiculous. I bet it was a guitar player - that's the first lesson you should learn as a fiddle player - don't listen to guitarists!
# Posted on January 14th 2011 by airport
Re: Bow re-hairing and steel v.s. synthetic strings question
I also use heavy helicores, they sound and respond great on my fiddle, a hundred year old German. But I tried the green and the brown prims and they were horrible. You don't know until you try really. My fiddle is quite solid, heavy bilt, so the tension is probably ok, but I don't know if I would put heavy strings on a more fragile fiddle. It really depends on the instrument. Bring your fiddle to a good luthier and ask. Good luck.
# Posted on January 14th 2011 by Gallowglass
Re: Bow re-hairing and steel v.s. synthetic strings question
You need to rehair a bow only if the micro barbs are clogged full of glazed rosin, or so many hairs have broken that it looks like a bald guy with a bad combover. In either case, your traction on the strings will be less and your tone will be thinner than with new hair.
Chances are, after four years, you should get it rehaired. I rehair mine every 6 months or so, playing 20 or more hours a week.
Strings: steel core strings won't hurt your fiddle. Helicore's are a good place to start with steel cores. If you've always played synth core, you may find you prefer the softer feel of synth under the fingers. Steel core offer a slightly faster response under the bow, and some fiddles sound better with good quality steel core strings. The higher tension isn't enough to harm your fiddle (unless it's in really delicate condition--unrepaired top cracks, a failing tail block, etc). Yet the higher tension can help "load" a fiddle and bring out hidden tone and volume.
My own fiddle seems to like Thomastik Vision strings the best, synth core. I've run Helicores and Prims and Evah Pirrazzis and Chromocore, and the Visions simply sound the best for my fiddle. YMMV.
# Posted on January 14th 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: Bow re-hairing and steel v.s. synthetic strings question
Actually I haven't heard of anyone who damaged his/her fiddle by putting steel strings on it.
# Posted on January 14th 2011 by Gallowglass
Re: Bow re-hairing and steel v.s. synthetic strings question
No, it would be a problem only if the fiddle already had some weakness that needed repairing anyway.
# Posted on January 14th 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: Bow re-hairing and steel v.s. synthetic strings question
Steel strings do put a bit more tension on the instrument, but unless your fiddle is from the baroque period or a very light hand-built instrument there will be no problem - every fiddler you see using steel strings is using an instrument just like yours. They don't make heavier fiddles to go with steel strings like they do with guitars.
As to re-hairing, under the microscope horsehair looks like a rat's tail - covered in scales. Over time those scales wear off, leaving a smooth surface, and that is the time to replace the hair.
If, like a lot of trad players, you mostly play with a short section of the bow, that area will wear first. Try playing some long notes using the whole bow. If it seems to have less grip and hiss across the strings at the worn patch, then it's time for new hair.
If you play with a classical like style and use the whole bow equally, then you just have to judge when it is not giving the bite you want.
For someone who plays lightly, and just does an hour or two a day, a bow might last a couple of years. If you're a heavy player and practice several hours per day, it might be a matter of weeks.
# Posted on January 14th 2011 by skreech
Re: Bow re-hairing and steel v.s. synthetic strings question
Hold your bow about a third of the way up from the frog and play a few notes with the very tip -- about three or four inches -- which, as skreech points out, hardly gets used. You should be able to tell if there is a difference in traction. If you can't notice a difference, it probably will last a bit longer.
# Posted on January 14th 2011 by gam
Re: Bow re-hairing and steel v.s. synthetic strings question
thanks for the advice, y'all! I saw a guitar that had had it's neck warped really badly from steel strings, also read it somewhere, don't remember where, just making sure.
# Posted on January 14th 2011 by Becky-o
Re: Bow re-hairing and steel v.s. synthetic strings question
I did have Chromcor steel strings on my fiddle, and I liked them, but taking a tip from someone's comment on an earlier discussion about steel strings I replaced them (after I'd given them 6 months) with Spirocores and I like them even better. Both these sets of strings suit my fiddle as it is mellow and woody in tone and likes to be brightened up.
# Posted on January 14th 2011 by RichardB
Re: Bow re-hairing and steel v.s. synthetic strings question
According to Steven Beckley, a bow maker and supplier of luthiers’ products in Los Altos, California...“We start to talk about ‘bite’,” says Beckley. “This is a wonderfully subjective thing that’s tough to quantify. I think people’s perceptions of horsehair come from some drawings from the turn of the century, which have little arms and fingers coming out of horsehairs, grabbing onto your strings. When you actually see photos of magnified hair, there aren’t barbs at all. I think bite comes from the hair’s ability to hold rosin. "
# Posted on January 15th 2011 by leoj
Re: Bow re-hairing and steel v.s. synthetic strings question
You're right, it is the rosin that gives the bite. But the rosin only sticks to the hair because of the roughness of the outer scales (try applying rosin so something smooth, like a nylon guitar string - it won't take at all).
Once you wear through the scales to the core of the hair, it won't hold rosin and therefore loses its bite.
There's a vaguely relevant article with some good pictures here:
http://iwk.mdw.ac.at/Forschung/english/bowhair/bowhair.htm
# Posted on January 15th 2011 by skreech
Re: Bow re-hairing and steel v.s. synthetic strings question
Interesting site. This is right:
"By observing hairs with and without rosin, it is clear that rosin sticks to the platelets on the surface of the hair."
# Posted on January 15th 2011 by leoj
Re: Bow re-hairing and steel v.s. synthetic strings question
"platelets" sounds like a fancy word for scales, which are clearly evident on those photos in the article skreech posted.
That's how I've heard it explained a thousand times by various bow makers, fiddle teachers, and luthiers.
# Posted on January 15th 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: Bow re-hairing and steel v.s. synthetic strings question
"When you actually see photos of magnified hair, there aren’t barbs at all. I think bite comes from the hair’s ability to hold rosin. "
# Posted on January 15th 2011 by leoj
Re: Bow re-hairing and steel v.s. synthetic strings question
leoj, yes, but the hair has scales and ridges and edges (some bow makers call them 'barbs') which is what grabs the rosin. Without those scales, horsehair would not take the rosin.
Did you look at the pix of hair under magnification that skreech posted, or are you just being snarky?
# Posted on January 15th 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: Bow re-hairing and steel v.s. synthetic strings question
LOL, yet another theory:
http://www.drbows.com/bowhair.html
# Posted on January 15th 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: Bow re-hairing and steel v.s. synthetic strings question
I've found that Helicores really sound much better. I've tried many synthetic strings, and have settled for the Helicores. They sound great, and really pull out more tone from the strings. I love that they last longer. My Helicore A lasted almost 1 1/2 years, instead of 6 months like the synthetic strings. I like the tone of the Helicores vs. the Prims - the Prims were too harsh. Plus, the Helicores were the only strings that sounded halfway decent on my cheap fiddle, so much that I tried then on my regular fiddle. You may find yourself having to adust to the string and maybe have a different approach to the bowing. The synthetic strings will behave different from the metal strings. I've heard that synthetic are more responsive, but I haven't found that to be a problem with the metal strings. Never heard anything about metal strings harming the fiddle. I'm guessing that metal strings have been around a lot longer than synthetic strings.
# Posted on January 15th 2011 by enirehtac
Re: Bow re-hairing and steel v.s. synthetic strings question
maybe this can solve a problem i have too. my fiddle just sounds like the strings are too loose, now i have have tried to tighten an octave higher but it practically screams at me to stop. i tune with a tuner and many other such instruments to try and help but the results are the same. i would say my strings are synthetic but they could also just be cheap and nasty. would the steels be a worthy investment to try and even it out a bit? at present the tone is very inconsistant which doesnt help me much with learning.
# Posted on January 15th 2011 by christofloffer
Re: Bow re-hairing and steel v.s. synthetic strings question
@christofloffer
I understand that you also play guitar. Your fiddle strings should sound the same as the equivalent guitar string at the twelfth fret.
# Posted on January 15th 2011 by gam
Re: Bow re-hairing and steel v.s. synthetic strings question
just gave that a go gam, but it still seems quite low. maybe it doesnt help that the guitar is a huge dreadnaught with heavy guage strings though. from what i have read here and elsewhere i think i would be suited better to steels. i never got on with nylon string with guitars so maybe the same theory will ring true with the fiddle aswell. didnt they originally use gut for strings though? can you still get them? or does anyone know where i could find out what gut it is? i know there is a lot of uses i have lashed rods together with deer gut and sinew before and it went rock hard so i assume that wouldnt work. unless "gut" was metaphorical.
# Posted on January 15th 2011 by christofloffer
Re: Bow re-hairing and steel v.s. synthetic strings question
"Gut" is usually sheep gut.
# Posted on January 15th 2011 by Bob himself
Re: Bow re-hairing and steel v.s. synthetic strings question
You can certainly still get gut strings - they are used by a lot of orchestral players. But I wouldn't recommend them for a beginner, and certainly not if you are having tuning problems, they're a real pain in the butt to keep working.
If you want to try gut look for a set of Pirastro Eudoxa or Golds. But don't even think about trying to make your own - they are made from the small intestine of sheep, but there is an awful lot of processing involved.
# Posted on January 15th 2011 by skreech
Re: Bow re-hairing and steel v.s. synthetic strings question
http://www.daniellarson.com/article.htm
interesting.
# Posted on January 15th 2011 by christofloffer
Re: Bow re-hairing and steel v.s. synthetic strings question
Ummm, thanks for that article... I guess...
# Posted on January 15th 2011 by Bob himself
Re: Bow re-hairing and steel v.s. synthetic strings question
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display.php/4055
Good description of how to clean your bow hair, as an alternative to rehairing.
# Posted on January 15th 2011 by Henk Bos
Re: Bow re-hairing and steel v.s. synthetic strings question
I also use helicores (medium). I've tried all kinds of strings and always end up going back to helicore. The D tends to always go dead before the others, but other than that I think they are great. But it also depends on the fiddle.... strings will sound different on each instrument.
And ditto on what everyone said about rehairing. I've never actually had bowhair get gunked up with rosin before needed to rehair, which I only do about every 5 years or so, but I've seen on others. I change my bow hair when there aren't enough hairs left for my liking.
# Posted on January 16th 2011 by fiddletreegypsy
Re: Bow re-hairing and steel v.s. synthetic strings question
I love Helicores, and I've tried every expensive synthetic at one time or another.
For the bow, you can try cleaning the hair with alcohol. It's a little tricky, because you don't want to get alcohol on the stick. What I do is unscrew the frog and lay the bow on a table, with the tip of the bow just over the edge of the table, and the frog and hair swinging from the tip. Apply alcohol to the hair by rubbing it with a cloth with alcohol on it, then rubbing it off with another cloth. Let it dry, and re-attach the frog.
You'll need to put rosin on because the hair will be free of rosin. When I do this, the bow (fiddle) typically sounds much better than before.
# Posted on January 17th 2011 by Jmbu
Re: Bow re-hairing and steel v.s. synthetic strings question
The reason why guitar necks bend when steel strings replace nylon, is simply that guitars intended to have steel strings have a steel reinforcement bar (often adjustable) running up inside the neck. 'Nylon' guitars don't have such strong necks and thus distort when too much tension is applied. Fiddles are constructed differently, but even these will distort if you try to tune too high, do don't try putting a cello string on and pushing it to top 'e' !
# Posted on January 17th 2011 by Ebor_fiddler
Re: Bow re-hairing and steel v.s. synthetic strings question
PS: I use Pirastro steel strings - light and toneful. PLenty of punch too!
# Posted on January 17th 2011 by Ebor_fiddler
Re: Bow re-hairing and steel v.s. synthetic strings question
gut strings are fine for a beginner, wound gut that is? I've never tried unwound gut, but have always wanted to, but can imagine it might be different. Sythetic is more like gut in terms of sound, feel, and tension than steel is. Steel strings have higher tension than both and will make your strings feel slightly tighter. I love the low tension of fiddle strings though, guitars usually feel too tight to me.
# Posted on January 18th 2011 by Earl Cameron
Re: Bow re-hairing and steel v.s. synthetic strings question
I say that because my first strings after the factory set were Pirastro gut strings (free trial at the time) and the only difference of note would be softer quieter tone which is actually can be an asset when you're first learning. I have often thought of getting a custom made bridge at double the weight of my current one to make my fiddler quieter for practicing up the neck.
# Posted on January 18th 2011 by Earl Cameron