I want to get an oval hole mandolin for playing Irish and American Old Time music. The old Gibson F- and A-4s sound beautiful and are readily available, but some of the newer makes, such as Collings, Eastman and Breedlove mandolins not only sound very good, but also seem to produce more volume and presence. Maybe newer construction techniques and materials are an important advantage? After the newer instrument is played a whole lot, it will sound even better.
If you were getting a mandolin for playing ITM and/or Old Time music, would you get an older instrument or a new one?
I'm quite fond of my Vega cylinder-back oval-hole mandolin. It has a sweet tone and can be heard in a reasonable-sized session. It was made back in the 1930s.
I play a Weber Yellowstone F-style and it sounds terrific for Irish music. A friend plays a Weber A oval hole--darker tone--also sounds great for the jigs and reels.
I've also played a fair number of old Gibsons and most of the F4s and A4s sound clunky compared to today's mandolins.
Check out Mandolin Cafe's daily classified ads for new and used mandolins on sale: http://www.mandolincafe.com
At the risk of being repititious;
Replace the adjustable bridge with a Red-Henry-pattern one-piece bridge; it will instantly improve volume and tone, whatever the type of mandolin.
Last time I looked I think he was selling them for $10 a pop, or you could just follow his website and carve your own from one of his designs.
Speaking of being repetitious: go out and play mandolins until you know which one is the right one.
I really like my Gibson A, from around 1920. Nice mellow sound, plays nice, isn't too loud in a session. Will, based on his comment above, would find it a bit dull, and would prefer something a bit more lively. I don't know where you fall on this spectrum, but I can promise you that the research will be a lot of fun for you.
It is my theory, having acquired by mail order a new Gibson A-9 a year and a half ago, that they make them according to a successful recipe developed over a hundred years experience. This recipe means that you've got to do the baking yourself. I just don't think I would have bought it had I played it new, but after more than a year of heavy playing, it has come through and now sounds fantastic. I'm still more inclined to take the tenor banjo to sessions though. Dispute this if you like, but no mandolin can really cope with being surrounded by fiddles, pipes, boxes etc (plus all the strummers and goat-whackers)
All of the new instruments you mentioned are decent, even great mandolins, but it still comes down to playing each individual mandolin and determining which one you like the best. I've owned and played a lot of older Gibsons and currently have a 1921 F-2 and a 1920 A-2. The A model oval hole Gibsons are quite variable and (just a guess) I'd say that only about 10% of them are wonderful, 50% OK and the rest are not worth having. The F-2 models vary too, but in a narrower range.
I once played every A model oval hole instrument at Bernunzio's only to find that none of them had the sound or volume I wanted. Part of this is due to setup, but these older Gibson mandolins really vary.
The same is true of most of the instruments you cite with the possible exception of Collings who seem to be able to turn out the same mandolin time after time. This is not an endorsement of Collings mandolins, I don't like the modern sound very much, but they are very well made. The others vary quite a bit.
The bottom line is that you need to play an instrument before you get it. If it is not setup well, you may have to interpret the sound but as a rule of thumb if it doesn't sound good new, it will likely not sound as good as you want it after it is played.
Mostly you get what you pay for. There are some exceptions such as the Army-navy style mandolins which sound better than a similarly priced F model, but if you A/B instruments the way I did once at Sprucetree Music in Madison, WI you may go home with the most expensive mandolin.
As an aside, there is no formula for which mandolin style is best in Irish music. F hole mandolins work as well as oval hole mandolins. The advantage that an F hole mandolin has is projection forward. In a session, especially a loud session, that may be a slight disadvantage because you are not going to hear the instrument as well as the guy across from you and you may have a tendency to over strike the strings.
My advice is find an instrument you like, get it setup by a pro and enjoy.
Have you played any of the old Gibsons? If not, then try to find a way to play some and A/B them against more recent brands to get a better idea of what will suit you. Some folks swear by the old Gibsons and others don't - A few years back I thought that I'd like to get an old Gibson A, but after playing a bunch of them came to the conclusion that they weren't my particular cup of tea. For meself I tend to prefer more recently built mandolins with radius fretboards vs. the flat fretboards found on the old Gibsons. I've a Weber oval A, and just got on a luthier's list to have him make me an A5 - between the two instruments I reckon my mandolin needs will be well met.
I agree with Jon & Mike & triplet - play before you buy, if at all possible. Falling in love with an instrument is a great way to get on the road to successful playing. Trying out an instrument in a session environment would be ideal, too! Check return policies.
Mr. Keyes is correct that Collings are very consistent. Which is great *if* you like how they sound.
I should mention that Webers varied in sound a lot over the first six years or so of production. Starting in 2006, something clicked and their quality is much more consistent and higher, to my ears. If you like the Weber sound, try to stick with mandos built after 2006. (They also made a large batch of mandolins with very old wood, obtained from a going-out-of-business sale by a retiring luthier. These mandos tend to the "outstanding" end of the scale.)
Regardless, every mandolin is different, and set up will make a significant difference in sound and playability.
"A/B" = "compare two mutually substitutable objects against each other". As in "Object A" and "Object B".
Typically used of sound gear - "let's A/B these two microphones and see which one we like better".
Thanks very much to everyone for the advice, opinions, etc.
I recently visited Elderly Instruments in Lansing, Michigan and had the opportunity to play and listen to several mandolins. My goat was to hear the difference between those with oval holes versus f-holes.
With recent Gibson and Collings instruments the oval hole models, regardless of body style, seemed to produce more sustain and sounded more a bit more 'open' (more mid-range and projection) than the f-hole models.
I was surprised to find that body style actually didn't seem to make much difference given the same sound-hole (oval versus f).
freshwater. they're amazing. not too expensive. nice handmade instruments. i'd personally go for the celtic design sound hole. i had a lend of one for a while. it was possibly the nicest mandolin i've ever played. nicer then a gibson i think. here's the link ...
I did the A/B (in fact the whole alphabet) thing down in Brighton in England at the Acoustic Music Co, huge selection of quality mandos. Went looking for a oval came home with an "F" and it wasn't the most expensive instrument I tried, it may even have been the cheapest of the US hand made models I tried. Have to hold the bugger away from my body when I give it a thrash as I don't like the vibration it transmits through the back into my body, sounds great though.
Hmm - have to be careful what I say here. When I was looking around for my bouzouki in the summer it took very little searching to find a whole heap of extremely uncomplimentary stuff about Freshwater instruments and the owner of the company. I have never seen one, but it was enough to put me off. I suggest you look hard if you are considering this make.
yeah, i've heard bad things about the owner, but i will have to say,the mandolins are amazing. never played a bouzouki of his though. the guitars are meant to be very good too
Love the old gibson mandolins... however, we have a nice eastman and I am utterly in love with it. One of the best sounding mandolins I've ever come across. It costs far less, as well.
Also should note... the Eastman is LOUD compared to other mandos around, and can hold its own in a session. I don't play it much these days, but a mandolin playing friend usually borrows it for our sessions to keep pace (regarding volume) with not only fiddles and guitars, but boxes and pipes.
For many years I had a Black Gibson A Snakehead 1921 (oval hole) that was a dream to play. I sold it to buy a Hamilton flute, but would like to have the Snakehead again. The old Gibson mandolins have a very unique bell quality to the tone, and this one had a slimmer neck than the pre-Loar mandos of the same type. The down-side now, of course, is that these instruments are pricey - 2 - 4 thousand USD.
Here's a recording that I made with it in the early 90's - the recording was never finished, but it gives you an idea how this type of mando can sound in the studio.
Check out the- Weber oval hole vintage model -in" McNeill,s" of Capel street ,Dublin.
Phone 01 8728530. If you have the dosh, it could be the mandolin for you.
Question for mandolinists
Question for mandolinists
I want to get an oval hole mandolin for playing Irish and American Old Time music. The old Gibson F- and A-4s sound beautiful and are readily available, but some of the newer makes, such as Collings, Eastman and Breedlove mandolins not only sound very good, but also seem to produce more volume and presence. Maybe newer construction techniques and materials are an important advantage? After the newer instrument is played a whole lot, it will sound even better.
If you were getting a mandolin for playing ITM and/or Old Time music, would you get an older instrument or a new one?
Thanks for any advice.
# Posted on January 13th 2011 by dfost
Re: Question for mandolinists
I'm quite fond of my Vega cylinder-back oval-hole mandolin. It has a sweet tone and can be heard in a reasonable-sized session. It was made back in the 1930s.
# Posted on January 13th 2011 by Larry Ayers
Re: Question for mandolinists
Check out Weber Instruments: http://www.soundtoearth.com/
Lots of options, high quality reasonably priced.
# Posted on January 13th 2011 by highdesertbob
Re: Question for mandolinists
I play a Weber Yellowstone F-style and it sounds terrific for Irish music. A friend plays a Weber A oval hole--darker tone--also sounds great for the jigs and reels.
I've also played a fair number of old Gibsons and most of the F4s and A4s sound clunky compared to today's mandolins.
Check out Mandolin Cafe's daily classified ads for new and used mandolins on sale: http://www.mandolincafe.com
# Posted on January 13th 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: Question for mandolinists
Nice old Gibson F4: http://www.mandolincafe.com/cgi-bin/classifieds/classifieds.cgi?search_and_display_db_button=on&db_id=45465&query=retrieval
# Posted on January 13th 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: Question for mandolinists
At the risk of being repititious;
Replace the adjustable bridge with a Red-Henry-pattern one-piece bridge; it will instantly improve volume and tone, whatever the type of mandolin.
Last time I looked I think he was selling them for $10 a pop, or you could just follow his website and carve your own from one of his designs.
# Posted on January 13th 2011 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Question for mandolinists
Speaking of being repetitious: go out and play mandolins until you know which one is the right one.
I really like my Gibson A, from around 1920. Nice mellow sound, plays nice, isn't too loud in a session. Will, based on his comment above, would find it a bit dull, and would prefer something a bit more lively. I don't know where you fall on this spectrum, but I can promise you that the research will be a lot of fun for you.
# Posted on January 13th 2011 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Question for mandolinists
It is my theory, having acquired by mail order a new Gibson A-9 a year and a half ago, that they make them according to a successful recipe developed over a hundred years experience. This recipe means that you've got to do the baking yourself. I just don't think I would have bought it had I played it new, but after more than a year of heavy playing, it has come through and now sounds fantastic. I'm still more inclined to take the tenor banjo to sessions though. Dispute this if you like, but no mandolin can really cope with being surrounded by fiddles, pipes, boxes etc (plus all the strummers and goat-whackers)
# Posted on January 13th 2011 by RichardB
Re: Question for mandolinists
dfost,
All of the new instruments you mentioned are decent, even great mandolins, but it still comes down to playing each individual mandolin and determining which one you like the best. I've owned and played a lot of older Gibsons and currently have a 1921 F-2 and a 1920 A-2. The A model oval hole Gibsons are quite variable and (just a guess) I'd say that only about 10% of them are wonderful, 50% OK and the rest are not worth having. The F-2 models vary too, but in a narrower range.
I once played every A model oval hole instrument at Bernunzio's only to find that none of them had the sound or volume I wanted. Part of this is due to setup, but these older Gibson mandolins really vary.
The same is true of most of the instruments you cite with the possible exception of Collings who seem to be able to turn out the same mandolin time after time. This is not an endorsement of Collings mandolins, I don't like the modern sound very much, but they are very well made. The others vary quite a bit.
The bottom line is that you need to play an instrument before you get it. If it is not setup well, you may have to interpret the sound but as a rule of thumb if it doesn't sound good new, it will likely not sound as good as you want it after it is played.
Mostly you get what you pay for. There are some exceptions such as the Army-navy style mandolins which sound better than a similarly priced F model, but if you A/B instruments the way I did once at Sprucetree Music in Madison, WI you may go home with the most expensive mandolin.
As an aside, there is no formula for which mandolin style is best in Irish music. F hole mandolins work as well as oval hole mandolins. The advantage that an F hole mandolin has is projection forward. In a session, especially a loud session, that may be a slight disadvantage because you are not going to hear the instrument as well as the guy across from you and you may have a tendency to over strike the strings.
My advice is find an instrument you like, get it setup by a pro and enjoy.
Mike Keyes
http://www.banjosessions.com
# Posted on January 13th 2011 by mikeyes
Re: Question for mandolinists
Have you played any of the old Gibsons? If not, then try to find a way to play some and A/B them against more recent brands to get a better idea of what will suit you. Some folks swear by the old Gibsons and others don't - A few years back I thought that I'd like to get an old Gibson A, but after playing a bunch of them came to the conclusion that they weren't my particular cup of tea. For meself I tend to prefer more recently built mandolins with radius fretboards vs. the flat fretboards found on the old Gibsons. I've a Weber oval A, and just got on a luthier's list to have him make me an A5 - between the two instruments I reckon my mandolin needs will be well met.
# Posted on January 13th 2011 by triplet upstairs
Re: Question for mandolinists
I agree with Jon & Mike & triplet - play before you buy, if at all possible. Falling in love with an instrument is a great way to get on the road to successful playing. Trying out an instrument in a session environment would be ideal, too! Check return policies.
# Posted on January 13th 2011 by primrose lass
Re: Question for mandolinists
Mr. Keyes is correct that Collings are very consistent. Which is great *if* you like how they sound.
I should mention that Webers varied in sound a lot over the first six years or so of production. Starting in 2006, something clicked and their quality is much more consistent and higher, to my ears. If you like the Weber sound, try to stick with mandos built after 2006. (They also made a large batch of mandolins with very old wood, obtained from a going-out-of-business sale by a retiring luthier. These mandos tend to the "outstanding" end of the scale.)
Regardless, every mandolin is different, and set up will make a significant difference in sound and playability.
# Posted on January 13th 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: Question for mandolinists
"A/B"???
# Posted on January 13th 2011 by oldstrings
Re: Question for mandolinists
"A/B" = "compare two mutually substitutable objects against each other". As in "Object A" and "Object B".
Typically used of sound gear - "let's A/B these two microphones and see which one we like better".
# Posted on January 13th 2011 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Question for mandolinists
I guessed it was something like that. Thanks, Jon. In fact, I have some mics to assess this week, so I'll A/B them!
# Posted on January 13th 2011 by oldstrings
Re: Question for mandolinists
Thanks very much to everyone for the advice, opinions, etc.
I recently visited Elderly Instruments in Lansing, Michigan and had the opportunity to play and listen to several mandolins. My goat was to hear the difference between those with oval holes versus f-holes.
With recent Gibson and Collings instruments the oval hole models, regardless of body style, seemed to produce more sustain and sounded more a bit more 'open' (more mid-range and projection) than the f-hole models.
I was surprised to find that body style actually didn't seem to make much difference given the same sound-hole (oval versus f).
# Posted on January 14th 2011 by dfost
Re: Question for mandolinists
Actually, I didn't take my 'goat' with me, but I did have a 'goal'
# Posted on January 14th 2011 by dfost
Re: Question for mandolinists
freshwater. they're amazing. not too expensive. nice handmade instruments. i'd personally go for the celtic design sound hole. i had a lend of one for a while. it was possibly the nicest mandolin i've ever played. nicer then a gibson i think. here's the link ...
http://www.freshwater-instruments.com/product1.htm#1
im saving up for one. may go for the 10 string in a few months too
# Posted on January 14th 2011 by FastEddie
Re: Question for mandolinists
I did the A/B (in fact the whole alphabet) thing down in Brighton in England at the Acoustic Music Co, huge selection of quality mandos. Went looking for a oval came home with an "F" and it wasn't the most expensive instrument I tried, it may even have been the cheapest of the US hand made models I tried. Have to hold the bugger away from my body when I give it a thrash as I don't like the vibration it transmits through the back into my body, sounds great though.
Archtops all the way, IMVHO that is.
# Posted on January 14th 2011 by Solidmahog
Re: Question for mandolinists
Hmm - have to be careful what I say here. When I was looking around for my bouzouki in the summer it took very little searching to find a whole heap of extremely uncomplimentary stuff about Freshwater instruments and the owner of the company. I have never seen one, but it was enough to put me off. I suggest you look hard if you are considering this make.
# Posted on January 14th 2011 by ian stock
Re: Question for mandolinists
yeah, i've heard bad things about the owner, but i will have to say,the mandolins are amazing. never played a bouzouki of his though. the guitars are meant to be very good too
# Posted on January 14th 2011 by FastEddie
Re: Question for mandolinists
Love the old gibson mandolins... however, we have a nice eastman and I am utterly in love with it. One of the best sounding mandolins I've ever come across. It costs far less, as well.
# Posted on January 15th 2011 by fiddletreegypsy
Re: Question for mandolinists
Also should note... the Eastman is LOUD compared to other mandos around, and can hold its own in a session. I don't play it much these days, but a mandolin playing friend usually borrows it for our sessions to keep pace (regarding volume) with not only fiddles and guitars, but boxes and pipes.
# Posted on January 15th 2011 by fiddletreegypsy
Re: Question for mandolinists
For many years I had a Black Gibson A Snakehead 1921 (oval hole) that was a dream to play. I sold it to buy a Hamilton flute, but would like to have the Snakehead again. The old Gibson mandolins have a very unique bell quality to the tone, and this one had a slimmer neck than the pre-Loar mandos of the same type. The down-side now, of course, is that these instruments are pricey - 2 - 4 thousand USD.
Here's a recording that I made with it in the early 90's - the recording was never finished, but it gives you an idea how this type of mando can sound in the studio.
http://www.box.net/shared/nzv0okk9rc
# Posted on January 15th 2011 by Toppish
Re: Question for mandolinists
Check out the- Weber oval hole vintage model -in" McNeill,s" of Capel street ,Dublin.
Phone 01 8728530. If you have the dosh, it could be the mandolin for you.
# Posted on February 13th 2011 by gabarry